Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?

[Murmillus_Prime]

No those guys are not moderate lol.  The US has been bombing them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/08/28/u-s-drone-strikes-batter-jabhat-al-nusra-encouraging-moderates/

That crappy Russian propaganda video is referring to the US condemning Russian bombings in that area. There are Syrians there fighting those Al-Nursa terrorists and Russia doesn't distinguish regular Syrians from terrorist groups and bombed the area indiscriminately.

They make up the majority of the opposition the media and the West have tried to pass off as the moderate opposition. The "moderate opposition" do not exist, I also see that you've missed the FSA flag in the video. My post stands, your attempt to debunk it has not succeeded and neither has Xant's addition to it. In many cases U.S backed "moderate opposition" end up either fleeing, arming Al-Nusra, IS and other similar groups and then fleeing or just joining them with their U.S supplied weapons and fighting for them utilising their CIA training.

[Murmillus_Prime]

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

Neither should you. Brah.  (I win)

[Grytviken]

They make up the majority of the opposition the media and the West have tried to pass off as the moderate opposition. The "moderate" FSA do not exist. My post stands, your attempt to debunk it has not succeeded and neither has Xant's addition to it. In many cases U.S backed "moderate opposition" end up either fleeing, arming Al-Nusra, IS and other similar groups and then fleeing or just joining them with their U.S supplied weapons.

Al Nursa, the group in that video used to be part of Al Qaeda. They broke off from Al Qaeda and started attacking them. Originally there was some cooperation and a ceasefire between them and the moderate rebels but they ended up fighting each other so they got put back on the shit-list, there was originally some speculation that they might give up their extreme ideals but that wasn't the case.

 If you chose to believe the Russian propaganda that there are only two sides in Syria, the Government and the terrorists then so be it.

[Grytviken]

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

Exactly it's clearly a repost of a video from years ago with a redubbed title.

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Doesn't look like the same city in the video anymore does it?

[Sir_Hans]

Here's a little update today regarding the going ons in the proxy war, this news was just released this morning. I first heard it on NPR while I was driving to work.
Good to see US and Russia at least are attempting to avoid incidents in the air now, still I think this particular development means very little regarding the stability of relations between US/Russia

"US and Russia sign deal to avoid Syria air incidents"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34588286



I wish the U.S. would just back out of Syria... We'd save a ton of money going forward, We would strengthen ties with Russia, It's the perfect exit strategy
We've spent billions of dollars there and have literally received nothing in return. The region did not become more stable, Assad is no closer to being outsed, ISIS was formed, U.S. taxpayers took it up the ass.

This country would be so well funded and have a much stronger economy, if we stopped throwing money at every single problem that arises on the face of the planet.

U.S. SPENT $1,010,354,195 ON SYRIAN HUMANITARIAN AID 2012-2013
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2013/09/08/us-spent-1-010-354-195-in-syrian-humanitarian-aid-2012-2013/

[Molly]

Awesome, Tovi Murmi is back... Let the entertainment commence!

[Murmillus_Prime]

Al Nursa, the group in that video used to be part of Al Qaeda. They broke off from Al Qaeda and started attacking them. Originally there was some cooperation and a ceasefire between them and the moderate rebels but they ended up fighting each other so they got put back on the shit-list, there was originally some speculation that they might give up their extreme ideals but that wasn't the case.

 If you chose to believe the Russian propaganda that there are only two sides in Syria, the Government and the terrorists then so be it.

There are more than two sides. But that doesn't suddenly make them moderate opposition because they aren't IS, AL-Qaeda or CIA trained mercenaries.

If you choose to believe the Western propaganda that there are rebels only consisting of good willed Syrians who want "democracy and freedom" then so be it. ( Ask the Libyans how freedom and democracy is working out for them.)

Just remember what history can teach us. After the CIA had trained and armed jihadi's to overthrow the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (no doubt people like you, Molly, Xant would have been cheering them on), these same jihadi's took it upon themselves to form an organisation to oppose Western imperialism in the ME and opposed American bases in Saudi-Arabia and other places in the M.E. Eventually these jihadi's concocted a plans which saw them launch multiple attacks against the West leading to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

But I'm sure you, Molly and Xant are FINE with it right? Everything is hunky dory, civilians being killed by terrorists we backed was worth it because the big bad soviet union was driven back!.... You guys are living in a propaganda bubble.

Also

Exactly it's clearly a repost of a video from years ago with a redubbed title.

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Doesn't look like the same city in the video anymore does it?

Can you quote a source for the original post to see how the information differs between the original post and the repost I plucked from LL, since the article you've posted in response has not disproved anything shown on the post I linked.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Awesome, Tovi Murmi is back... Let the entertainment commence!

Damn Molly I thought you'd have gone to fight for right sector or the mujahideen by now. What a shame, I guess I'll have to put up with your sarcastic smarm again.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Molly didn't shit a brick when terrorists foreigners came to live in their country, so got bitten by one and became a terrorist themself. It's pretty scary. But alas that's the fate of all LIBERALS

Don't worry Murmi, you and I will be the only 2 sane people in this thread. They wont get my blood! bajfowijhfuwefuibwerufer

Wow brah, hold the horses. I'm not calling foreigners terrorists. That's racist.

[Angantyr]

I wish the U.S. would just back out of Syria... We'd save a ton of money going forward, We would strengthen ties with Russia, It's the perfect exit strategy
We've spent billions of dollars there and have literally received nothing in return. The region did not become more stable, Assad is no closer to being outsed, ISIS was formed, U.S. taxpayers took it up the ass.

This country would be so well funded and have a much stronger economy, if we stopped throwing money at every single problem that arises on the face of the planet.

I agree completely. My country are also doing air raids in Syria and the only benefactor as far as I can see is military industry and affiliated companies and banks. Especially corporations like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics etc.

[Grytviken]

There are more than two sides. But that doesn't suddenly make them moderate opposition because they aren't IS, AL-Qaeda or CIA trained mercenaries.

If you choose to believe the Western propaganda that there are rebels only consisting of good willed Syrians who want "democracy and freedom" then so be it. ( Ask the Libyans how freedom and democracy is working out for them.)

Just remember what history can teach us. After the CIA had trained and armed jihadi's to overthrow the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (no doubt people like you, Molly, Xant would have been cheering them on), these same jihadi's took it upon themselves to form an organisation to oppose Western imperialism in the ME and opposed American bases in Saudi-Arabia and other places in the M.E. Eventually these jihadi's concocted a plans which saw them launch multiple attacks against the West leading to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

But I'm sure you, Molly and Xant are FINE with it right? Everything is hunky dory, civilians being killed by terrorists we backed was worth it because the big bad soviet union was driven back!.... You guys are living in a propaganda bubble.

Also
Can you quote a source for the original post to see how the information differs between the original post and the repost I plucked from LL, since the article you've posted in response has not disproved anything shown on the post I linked.

  You can't base your entire logic around hindsight and speculation, or even compare one thing to another without some kind of proof or connection. Just about everything you said was either some type of fallacy or illogical comparison. I don't think anyone has these unrealistic expectations you assume, if that were the case then coalition airstrikes from several different countries wouldn't have been bombing these various terrorist groups for years now making your entire point and argument complete bullshit.

 
  Let's pretend that the Soviet's weren't responsible for 1.5 million civilian deaths in their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, let's also pretend that Assad hasn't killed thousands of his own civilians. Let's also pretend that hundreds of thousands of rebels and foreign fighters weren't already fighting against the Soviet Union in the Soviet-Afghan war , and a similar case exists today in Syria against Assad.

 
  Using hindsight we could assume that revolutions are easily hijacked. There are many examples of this throughout history. The Bolsheviks betrayed and murdered the Russian sailors of the Baltic Fleet who were public heroes of the Russian Revolution at Kronstadt. Osama Bin Laden was a mere lieutenant under someone else's command during the Soviet-Afghan war, but continued fighting against other various groups after soviet withdrawal and would later go on to lead the most notorious terrorist group. There are plenty of examples of revolutions and civil wars turning ugly.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-rebel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Al_Qaeda_breaks_links_with_ISIL_and_al-Nusra_Front_joins_the_fight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Markada

[Murmillus_Prime]

  You can't base your entire logic around hindsight and speculation, or even compare one thing to another without some kind of proof or connection. Just about everything you said was either some type of fallacy or illogical comparison. I don't think anyone has these unrealistic expectations you assume, if that were the case then coalition airstrikes from several different countries wouldn't have been bombing these various terrorist groups for years now making your entire point and argument complete bullshit.

 
  Let's pretend that the Soviet's weren't responsible for 1.5 million civilian deaths in their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, let's also pretend that Assad hasn't killed thousands of his own civilians. Let's also pretend that hundreds of thousands of rebels and foreign fighters weren't already fighting against the Soviet Union in the Soviet-Afghan war , and a similar case exists today in Syria against Assad.

 
  Using hindsight we could assume that revolutions are easily hijacked. There are many examples of this throughout history. The Bolsheviks betrayed and murdered the Russian sailors of the Baltic Fleet who were public heroes of the Russian Revolution at Kronstadt. Osama Bin Laden was a mere lieutenant under someone else's command during the Soviet-Afghan war, but continued fighting against other various groups after soviet withdrawal and would later go on to lead the most notorious terrorist group. There are plenty of examples of revolutions and civil wars turning ugly.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-rebel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Al_Qaeda_breaks_links_with_ISIL_and_al-Nusra_Front_joins_the_fight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Markada

Without proof or connection? Proof of what? Proof that we've been backing jihadi's and extremists? It's all over the internet and is well documented and even on some levels admitted by our governments.  Without proof or connection of what? That there's NO connection between the CIA training of SUNNI EXTREMISTS back in the 80's and the rise of AL-Qaeda including its presence in Syria today? That there's NO connection or proof that the latest CIA attempts to train and arm jihadi's the exact same type of SUNNI EXTREMIST that they had trained and armed back in the 80's will  only repeat the same mistakes of the past despite being faced with multiple videos documenting their barbaric conduct? Speculation? No, its a review of past mistakes and poor conduct which has destabilised the region and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, millions of people. The same mistakes our governments are making today. It's an illogical comparison to compare SUNNI EXTREMISTS with SUNNI EXTREMISTS, or CIA BACKED REBELS WITH CIA BACKED REBELS? It's illogical to assume that these same rebels who've been chanting about the creation of an Islamic state and who've engaged in atrocities against minorities will not benefit the Syrian people? Who the fuck are you? Get your head out of your arse.

And about the so called "coalition airstrikes", IS has expanded and GROWN under their airstrikes, and throughout the years of these apparent airstrikes the U.S have found time to "accidentally" airdrop arms and equipment in IS held areas. As we speak the Iraqi army are uncovering U.S dropped supplies left behind by fleeing IS militants. In all these years of airstrikes we've not even matched what the Russian's have been able to achieve in a matter of weeks.

Also screw your attempted history lesson on the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. The groups the CIA empowered in the 80's to overthrow the Soviets were the exact same groups our armed forces have spend over 10 years purportedly fighting in Afghanistan, a conflict in which we've spent billions or even trillions engaging in a conflict in which we've killed thousands, many civilians and lost hundreds. If you want to talk about logic, tell me the logic of that?

[Grytviken]

I agree completely. My country are also doing air raids in Syria and the only benefactor as far as I can see is military industry and affiliated companies and banks. Especially corporations like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics etc.

3% of Denmark's budget is spent on the military. You guys must be breaking the bank over there.

[Grytviken]

Without proof or connection? Proof of what? Proof that we've been backing jihadi's and extremists? It's all over the internet and is well documented and even on some levels admitted by our governments.  Without proof or connection of what? That there's NO connection between the CIA training of SUNNI EXTREMISTS back in the 80's and the rise of AL-Qaeda including its presence in Syria today? That there's NO connection or proof that the latest CIA attempts to train and arm jihadi's the exact same type of SUNNI EXTREMIST that they had trained and armed back in the 80's will  only repeat the same mistakes of the past despite being faced with multiple videos documenting their barbaric conduct? Speculation? No, its a review of past mistakes and poor conduct which has destabilised the region and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, millions of people. The same mistakes our governments are making today. It's an illogical comparison to compare SUNNI EXTREMISTS with SUNNI EXTREMISTS, or CIA BACKED REBELS WITH CIA BACKED REBELS? It's illogical to assume that these same rebels who've been chanting about the creation of an Islamic state and who've engaged in atrocities against minorities will not benefit the Syrian people? Who the fuck are you? Get your head out of your arse.

And about the so called "coalition airstrikes", IS has expanded and GROWN under their airstrikes, and throughout the years of these apparent airstrikes the U.S have found time to "accidentally" airdrop arms and equipment in IS held areas. As we speak the Iraqi army are uncovering U.S dropped supplies left behind by fleeing IS militants. In all these years of airstrikes we've not even matched what the Russian's have been able to achieve in a matter of weeks.

Also screw your attempted history lesson on the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. The groups the CIA empowered in the 80's to overthrow the Soviets were the exact same groups our armed forces have spend over 10 years fighting in Afghanistan, a conflict in which we've spent billions or even trillions engaging in a conflict in which we've killed thousands, many civilians and lost hundreds. If you want to talk about logic, tell me the logic of that?

Yes let's ignore more facts and get even more butthurt that all your assumptions are baseless and don't follow any logical order or chain of events whatsoever.  Lol CIA empowerment, that's hilarious, did you invent that phrase yourself? Yes the CIA must have been wearing mind control helmets and forced hundreds of thousands of Muslims to fight against the atheist communists who were occupying their country. You are retarded kid.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Yes let's ignore more facts and get even more butthurt that all your assumptions are baseless and don't follow any logical order or chain of events whatsoever.  Lol CIA empowerment, that's hilarious. Yes the CIA must have been wearing mind control helmets and forced hundreds of thousands of Muslims to fight against the atheist communists. You are retarded kid.

I'm retarded? You're living in an alternate universe. Also answer my question. Where is the logic in fighting the very same armed groups we empowered, wasting lives and treasure with practically no positive outcome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan

I quote.

"The supplying of billions of dollars in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA's longest and most expensive covert operations.[5] The CIA provided assistance to the fundamentalist insurgents through the Pakistani secret services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in a program called Operation Cyclone. At least 3 billion in U.S. dollars were funneled into the country to train and equip troops with weapons. Together with similar programs by Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China,[6] the arms included Stinger missiles, shoulder-fired, antiaircraft weapons that they used against Soviet helicopters. Pakistan's secret service, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was used as an intermediary for most of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance."

More similarities highlighted in the quoted paragraph which I may add goes to show how LOGICAL my comparisons are.