Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?

[Xant]

There's a reason David Cameron in the UK doesn't get a huge amount of support for involvement in Syria. People are fed up after Iraq and Afghanistan. No one wants to be involved in yet another shit storm in the middle east and don't see it as our place. Particularly after the bull shit justifications for Iraq. The sad thing is Syria and fighting ISIS is actually a far better reason to involve ourselves there than the mythical WMDs.

Yet, this is so stupid. These people who are so adamantly against "western involvement" have nothing to lose. They have no stake in it. What did the UK lose from being involved in Iraq and Afghanistan? What did the average citizen sacrifice? Same for Poland, the US, etc. What's it away from them even if ground troops go into Syria?

Look at that rat-faced limey bastard cunt smiling at the death of europe. We need fertile muslim wombs desperately you see, the fact that western women are freer and have less children is problematic, let's import more backwards third worlders who breed like fucking rabbits, it's apparently a genetic trait and not a cultural one. It would be deeply racist and badwrong to encourage the natives to have more children, like the lands and the countries belong to them anyways, european countries are for the entire planet. Just accept the inevitable, cunts like Overdriven already have.

The whole "oh my god we need immigrants because we're losing people otherwise!" thing is ridiculous. Why do we need more people? So what if the white population is on the decline? All of those countries got along just fine before with a lot less people, with worse/no technology. If anything, there are too many people, and bullshit jobs have been created to give them something to do.

[Xant]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

Very interesting.



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Even these guys hate the apologists.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

Very interesting.



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Even these guys hate the apologists.

Very good read indeed. And according to it, they got Oberyn exactly where they wanted him to be.

[Xant]

Very good read indeed. And according to it, they got Oberyn exactly where they wanted him to be.

Some of the conclusions the writer of the article draws are questionable at best. "ISIS wants us to attack them (so we shouldn't)." ISIS wants the west to attack because they think Allah is going to destroy the armies of the west when they attack... that's hardly a reason for not doing it.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

The recordbreaking amount of homeless poor women and children hoarding the Western borders kinda turns it into our concern aswell m8. Because where the fuck do you think a bunch of people run to instantly when their homes get burned or some dictator rapes his own country?

How can you be so blind as to not start seeing that it turns out that it actually is our problem aswell? I thought so too aswell. "Whats the point, let the dictators in the Middle-East do whatever they want with their countries". How is it related to me? Well now it kinda turns out it is. You either fight the psychos in their land or you start arguing with the immigrants near at your own lands border. Pick an option. The third option is to make your own country so shit, nobody wants to migrate there.

Because again. The poor people infront of our borders kinda turn it viable. Their governments can turn the average peoples homes uninhabitable and they have to relocate.

You should the the one crying that too. Because its an actually fact. The dude was an agressive retard, who, if given the chance to rule longer, would have ripped the middle-east to shreads(bigger or same shreads it is in currently) eventually. The Arab League knew it. US knew it.

Yeah now the refugee situation in Mediteranea is so much better now that Kadafi was removed from power and all those refugee coming from Syria when Assad was head of state were unbeareable. Luckily we made Irak a better and more stable place to live in.

I hope we soon remove Khomeiny from power in Iran, I am tired of this mass of iranian refugee!

[Oberyn]

What they want is to kill us. Turning the other cheek just makes it easier. Did you see the extremely publicized response of the man whose wife got killed? His child will grow up without a mother and his reaction is to pretend he is living in some sort of fucking Hollywood movie. And this is lauded and aplauded. "I will not give you the gift of my hate", it's pathetic. How many more families have had a completely different and justified reaction of hatred and loathing for the assholes who murdered their loved ones? Why aren't those responses publicized and published and lauded? Doesn't fit with the apathetic, passive reaction narrative that should be addopted, apparently. Do you really think daesh's main goal is to get westerners to hate them (as if we needed any more reasons) so there can be a game of 11th dimensional chess where this somehow makes daesh stronger? How many times must they clearly state their intentions, how many more dead before these idiots blinded by childish disney level reasoning open their eyes? "Violence never solves anything, it's because of (our) violence that daesh exists in the first place, what we need is MORE tolerance and love and multiculturalism".

These muslim extremists are insane, they truly think they will fulfill some sort of apocalyptic prophecy if the countries and cultures they loathe and attack relentlessly finally do what they should have done years ago, and your response is to go "We shouldn't completely obliterate these backwards pieces of shit, this is exactly what they want". Yes, because they think they're protected by divine providence and fate, that if the west invades them it will end up in the west's destruction. And you take these delusions seriously? It's time to give them exactly what they want. Let them face armies instead of slaughtering defenceless civilians. What do you idiots think, that if we put boots on the ground daesh will somehow come out victorious? Same thing will happen as always happens whenever these pieces of shit come up against the armies of modern western nations. They will just turn their hatred inward and go for easier targets, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Western hatred or lack thereof is completely irrelevant, they don't need the actions of "crusaders" to galvanize their own hatred, "tolerance and understanding" will not disarm them of it. There's more than enough reasons and justifications of their own agency. The planet does not revolve around us, not everything that happens is a "reaction" to us.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Yeah I agree that is a Milchmädchenrechnung (Why isn't that an english expression already?). Would actually a real fucking good idea to attack them in dabiq - it certainly shouldn't fail though.

But still I think it is a good point that becoming more and more radical anti-muslim is rather helping the likes of ISIS, because it is really what they want. And even if it is hard to make any real sunni friends or allies (because yeah, most of them suck) we should never stop trying. Maybe not give them weapons straight away, though.

edit:, just in case: didn't read oberyns post before posting above.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

You either fight the psychos in their land or you start arguing with the immigrants near at your own lands border. Pick an option. The third option is to make your own country so shit, nobody wants to migrate there.

Let's ban Russian from official language to appease tension in Ukraine! What a surprise when some months after the Swiss delegation in Mali for mediation and peace has been sent home by French, there's an uprising in northern Mali followed by a Jihadist takeover!

Let's refuse to have a peace talk about Syria as long as Assad is taking part to it. And only after 2 millions death, a country torn apart and jihadist flooding into it, finally agree to have the head of state take part to the peace talk about his country.

But yeah truly, there's no other solution than pouring oil everywhere and when surprisingly it catches fire, sell weapons and send bombs to extinguish it. Plus why should we stop when it's working so well? That 12 years after the first Iraki war, the situation there is still not resolved, that 14 years after the invasion of afghanistan, it is still the second source of refugee. How can it be surprising that there are so many jihadist coming from Afghanistan when the population there hasn't known peace for 37 years? Surely when a whole generation has known nothing but war, never had time to learn to read but was instead teach to defend their home, it will lead to stability and development.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Oberyn, who do you exactly want to obliterate? Isis? All extreme Muslims? All Sunni Muslims? All Muslims? How you want to achieve that? I think right now a massive invasion against ISIS is overdue, though I am in no way certain that it is really the best thing to do or if it will solve any problems in the long run. But I don't personally see any other short-therm solution as well. In the long run however one way or the other our main goal must be to get at piece with the Sunnis and reduce hatred on both sides. That's why I think you are rather helping groups like ISIS to exist for eternity. Kick out every Muslim out of Europe and shut our borders? Try not to help their economies thrive? Condemn all sunnis and spread hatred on every occasion possible? Yes, even if I agree that Muslims hatred against the West will get along on their own fine, your attitude is certainly not helping changing that.

Also what is it that you see self-accusing whites everywhere? You know better than many others here that geniuses like Sykes, Picot or more recent Bush junior do have their share in the current situation, but do you really know so many people who equal that with "We are responsible for all problems in the middle east?" - Of course that is completely stupid.

[Tibe]

Yeah now the refugee situation in Mediteranea is so much better now that Kadafi was removed from power and all those refugee coming from Syria when Assad was head of state were unbeareable. Luckily we made Irak a better and more stable place to live in.

I hope we soon remove Khomeiny from power in Iran, I am tired of this mass of iranian refugee!

I never claimed that anything was better. I simply claimed that the things happening in the Middle East are also our issues(which you, may I quote, claimed were not), wether you like it or not. Revolutions nomatter what kind always create more refugees. And who the fuck are you to claim that those people people are happy or content with their fucked up leaders? I sure am happy that people like you didnt exsist that much during the Soviet Unions collapse. "Nono, dont risk with this revolution to gain sovereignty and finally rid ourselves of our oppressing leaders. Things might get worse, lets just deal with it, its not that bad." Is the kind of an person that you are brokar.

Its not the Wests fault that there is always a powervaccum that is filled by fanatics whenever some leader is overthrown in the Middle-East. Its a bit like Africa. Even if the West wouldnt do shit, it would still generate a lot of refugees. Than the warlords, like in Africa, would just burn eachothers homes and the result would be relatively similar to what it is now.

[Oberyn]

Also what is it that you see self-accusing whites everywhere? You know better than many others here that geniuses like Sykes, Picot or more recent Bush junior do have their share in the current situation, but do you really know so many people the equal that with "We are responsible for all problems in the middle east?" - Of course that is completely stupid.   

Ask the self-flagellating bundle of sticks posting above you. Don't you know the "french" muslims who murdered did so because of awful western opression? It wasn't enough to treat them the same as any other french citizen, it wasn't enough to accept them in our countries, it wasn't enough to give them lives and opportunities they never would've had in their own countries. The fact that they were born and lived their entire lives here is completely irrelevant, they manage to be opressed by osmosis by events happening hundreds of kilometers from them and from which they suffered nothing, and their hatred and loathing is completely rational. Delusional bundle of sticks really think the swiss peace mission would've prevented war in northern Mali, there's no reasoning with this piece of shit. I can only hope someone in his family gets killed by a muslim fanatic, that a woman he knows gets raped and pissed on by these poor opressed victims, that he gets the shit beaten out of him and called a white piece of shit, and then have his own people call him an evil racist if he so much as complains.   

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I never claimed that anything was better. I simply claimed that the things happening in the Middle East are also our issues(which you, may I quote, claimed were not), wether you like it or not. Revolutions nomatter what kind always create more refugees. And who the fuck are you to claim that those people people are happy or content with their fucked up leaders? I sure am happy that people like you didnt exsist that much during the Soviet Unions collapse. "Nono, dont risk with this revolution to gain sovereignty and finally rid ourselves of our oppressing leaders. Things might get worse, lets just deal with it, its not that bad." Is the kind of an person that you are brokar.

Its not the Wests fault that there is always a powervaccum that is filled by fanatics whenever some leader is overthrown in the Middle-East. Its a bit like Africa. Even if the West wouldnt do shit, it would still generate a lot of refugees. Than the warlords, like in Africa, would just burn eachothers homes and the result would be relatively similar to what it is now.

That's a very good exemple and history proved me right. When the Soviet Union came up it was in part by force but also because they had the momentum due to the people will, nobody intervened and with time people realised what they wished for could not be, the government even if authoritarian collapsed by itself by lack of support, without bloodshed.

Same happened in Taiwan, Nationalist authoritarian government decided to have a democratic transition when it realised it had no more reason to be.

I am pretty confident that in some years China will have its own transition but I am sure as hell that if we provoked the collapse of the government right now it would be chaos.

What you don't understand but Oberyn managed to understand is that fanatics in Syria have the support of the population, it couldn't have raised to power so fast without the momentum of the population. Whether they were under a dictatorship or under fanatics rules was in both cases thanks to the population making the balance lean on one side or the other. But just let the balance be, whether we intervene or not change absolutely nothing if we go against the will of the people living there. Unless we simply exterminate the whole population like Oberyn is suggesting.

I have no fear of muslims fanatics as my government never stepped their boots in the middle east shit, and so muslim fanatics have nothing to do with my country either. So just keep getting in everyone shits if it pleases you but don't come crying when you get shit stains on your boots.

[Tibe]

That's a very good exemple and history proved me right. When the Soviet Union came up it was in part by force but also because they had the momentum due to the people will, nobody intervened and with time people realised what they wished for could not be, the government even if authoritarian collapsed by itself by lack of support, without bloodshed.

Same happened in Taiwan, Nationalist authoritarian government decided to have a democratic transition when it realised it had no more reason to be.

I am pretty confident that in some years China will have its own transition but I am sure as hell that if we provoked the collapse of the government right now it would be chaos.

What you don't understand but Oberyn managed to understand is that fanatics in Syria have the support of the population, it couldn't have raised to power so fast without the momentum of the population. Whether they were under a dictatorship or under fanatics rules was in both cases thanks to the population making the balance lean on one side or the other. But just let the balance be, whether we intervene or not change absolutely nothing if we go against the will of the people living there. Unless we simply exterminate the whole population like Oberyn is suggesting.

I have no fear of muslims fanatics as my government never stepped their boots in the middle east shit, and so muslim fanatics have nothing to do with my country either. So just keep getting in everyone shits if it pleases you but don't come crying when you get shit on your boots.

Considering what the Chinese government is, it will definately be chaos wether we provoke it or not. You do realise that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of the role was still played by foreign intervention and own caused inefficiency and some countries barely got independence? Were extremely close to not getting it even. And it was pretty close to chaos. Kremlins tanks were all over the lands that tried to claim independence and were extremely close to actually fire at the protesters. In Soviet unions case it was just pure luck and covincidence none of it happened. The way you make it sound like "eh, thats a textbook example of what happens when people want to leave peacefully and naturally". You have no idea about what you are talking about. The reason why bloodshed was avoided was thanks to the pressure of the international community and USSR leaders showing that they still have some degree of humanity left in them. The Chinese however, will definately bomb Taiwan to shit before they ever let it be independent. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Same applies to the the Middle-East. No way any of those leaders will ever show a degree of humanity. They will bomb their own people.

[Butan]

I can only hope someone in his family gets killed by a muslim fanatic, that a woman he knows gets raped and pissed on by these poor opressed victims, that he gets the shit beaten out of him and called a white piece of shit, and then have his own people call him an evil racist if he so much as complains.

Is it what happened to you? 

I think right now a massive invasion against ISIS is overdue, though I am in no way certain that it is really the best thing to do or if it will solve any problems in the long run.

Whether its the best thing or not should not stop us from actually doing the good thing and fighting against them. Leave the consequences to the survivors and the population, which I hope wont try something like that again afterward.

[Kafein]

Whether its the best thing or not should not stop us from actually doing the good thing and fighting against them. Leave the consequences to the survivors and the population, which I hope wont try something like that again afterward.

Bomb the oil wells for starters.

Considering what the Chinese government is, it will definately be chaos wether we provoke it or not. You do realise that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of the role was still played by foreign intervention and own caused inefficiency and some countries barely got independence? Were extremely close to not getting it even. And it was pretty close to chaos. Kremlins tanks were all over the lands that tried to claim independence and were extremely close to actually fire at the protesters. In Soviet unions case it was just pure luck and covincidence none of it happened. The way you make it sound like "eh, thats a textbook example of what happens when people want to leave peacefully and naturally". You have no idea about what you are talking about. The reason why bloodshed was avoided was thanks to the pressure of the international community and USSR leaders showing that they still have some degree of humanity left in them. The Chinese however, will definately bomb Taiwan to shit before they ever let it be independent. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Same applies to the the Middle-East. No way any of those leaders will ever show a degree of humanity. They will bomb their own people.

First off, Taiwan *is* de facto independent. It is not recognized by the mainland, much like the mainland is not recognized by the Republic of China (the real name of Taiwan). I think you are underestimating how much the Chinese elite has changed throughout the years. They are businessmen, concerned with stability more than territorial gains. They don't have an expansionist ideology in their roots, quite the opposite.