Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?

[Xant]

Don't worry Grytviken, Murmillus a famous retard, he was retarding like no one's ever retarded before in the Ukraine thread too.

[Grytviken]

I'm retarded? You're living in an alternate universe. Also answer my question. Where is the logic in fighting the very same armed groups we empowered, wasting lives and treasure with practically no positive outcome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan

I quote.

"The supplying of billions of dollars in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA's longest and most expensive covert operations.[5] The CIA provided assistance to the fundamentalist insurgents through the Pakistani secret services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in a program called Operation Cyclone. At least 3 billion in U.S. dollars were funneled into the country to train and equip troops with weapons. Together with similar programs by Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China,[6] the arms included Stinger missiles, shoulder-fired, antiaircraft weapons that they used against Soviet helicopters. Pakistan's secret service, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was used as an intermediary for most of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance."

More similarities highlighted in the quoted paragraph which I may add goes to show how LOGICAL my comparisons are.

  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.

[Angantyr]

3% of Denmark's budget is spent on the military. You guys must be breaking the bank over there.

My example wasn't about quantity (for which Denmark would be a bad example, thankfully) but to demonstrate how military industry operate internationally. NATO countries buying for example the F-35 are incentivized by Lockheed Martin or BAE Systems for the Euro Fighter, by engaging in long-term agreements investing in local industry for the manufacture of assembly parts. The Danish company Terma has for example collaborated with Lockheed Martin since 1976, on the F-16, C-130 and F-35, for advanced composite structural parts and electronics.

[Murmillus_Prime]

  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.

Not at all. However after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union the fighting did not end, the bloodshed did not end. The CIA and Pakistan backed elements in Afghanistan continued to wage a war against the Communist government in Afghanistan until its collapse from which the Saudi and Pakistani backed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was founded. This Islamic Emirate came to be as a direct consequence of the backing and meddling in Afghanistan's affairs by the U.S and its regional allies just as much as the earlier Communist government came to power with the backing and meddling of the Soviet Union, only Russia didn't see fit to bomb what it had helped to create less than a decade later. Afghanistan existed under a Communist government from 78 through till its fall in 92. A semblance of stability (inspite of the U.S and its allies efforts there) the West and its regional allies have failed to replicate, and yet have thrown endless sums of money away on that could have been better spent modernising their infrastructure and investing in science and education. The peoples of Afghanistan arguably had more freedom under Communist rule than they'd ever had under Islamic rule.

Talking about repeating history, let's just imagine that the Syrian opposition manage to overthrow Assad and take over. How long do you think it will be before the U.S and other NATO states decide to bomb the government that they had helped to bring about? Just as they did in Afghanistan. And tell me, how does that help the Syrian people? How does it bring peace and stability, freedom or democracy to the region and is worth it?

It's funny, because I'm trying to point out some history so that we may learn and yet it's you idiots who are failing to learn from past mistakes who are proponents of the same mistakes who are throwing around insults such as "retard". You fail to see the obvious similarities and comparisons between past and present actions and yet I am the "illogical" one. I'll have to conclude, you're bloody good trolls because that's the only conclusion I can come to after assessing your actions and words while trying to determine what your agenda is on this thread.

[Vovka]

  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.

through the intervention of the United States now after so many years, Afghanistan has finally become a prosperous, democratic country with a strong economy with a thriving agriculture and industry. And among the population there is no social and religious issues. GOD BLESS USA USA USA USA

[Murmillus_Prime]

A recent article posted on The Guardian website.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/21/case-bombing-syria-david-cameron-airstrikes-iraq-dangerous#comment-61866886

It's not usual for the Guardian to post such an honest and pragmatic article in regards to the Syrian war and even rarer that I agree with most of the points made in it.

[Grytviken]

through the intervention of the United States now after so many years, Afghanistan has finally become a prosperous, democratic country with a strong economy with a thriving agriculture and industry. And among the population there is no social and religious issues. GOD BLESS USA USA USA USA

   

Not at all. However after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union the fighting did not end, the bloodshed did not end. The CIA and Pakistan backed elements in Afghanistan continued to wage a war against the Communist government in Afghanistan until its collapse from which the Saudi and Pakistani backed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was founded. This Islamic Emirate came to be as a direct consequence of the backing and meddling in Afghanistan's affairs by the U.S and its regional allies just as much as the earlier Communist government came to power with the backing and meddling of the Soviet Union, only Russia didn't see fit to bomb what it had helped to create less than a decade later. Afghanistan existed under a Communist government from 78 through till its fall in 92. A semblance of stability (inspite of the U.S and its allies efforts there) the West and its regional allies have failed to replicate, and yet have thrown endless sums of money away on that could have been better spent modernising their infrastructure and investing in science and education. The peoples of Afghanistan arguably had more freedom under Communist rule than they'd ever had under Islamic rule.

Talking about repeating history, let's just imagine that the Syrian opposition manage to overthrow Assad and take over. How long do you think it will be before the U.S and other NATO states decide to bomb the government that they had helped to bring about? Just as they did in Afghanistan. And tell me, how does that help the Syrian people? How does it bring peace and stability, freedom or democracy to the region and is worth it?

It's funny, because I'm trying to point out some history so that we may learn and yet it's you idiots who are failing to learn from past mistakes who are proponents of the same mistakes who are throwing around insults such as "retard". You fail to see the obvious similarities and comparisons between past and present actions and yet I am the "illogical" one. I'll have to conclude, you're bloody good trolls because that's the only conclusion I can come to after assessing your actions and words while trying to determine what your agenda is on this thread.

  The problem with both of your arguments is that they are based on taking a sequence of events out of order to fit your own views without any regard to facts or evidence. Exaggerating and assuming cause and effect scenarios to fit your own twisted view of how things play out is not factual.

 If we wanted to go down the route of baseless accusations then we should also assume that Assad's Army is killing civilians because their Russian military advisers Kremlin agents trained them to do so. Russia has a history of murdering civilians in their past wars of Chechnya, Afghanistan and has even murdered millions of it's own civilians for political reasons in the past. We should throw all logic and facts out the window and assume that because the Kremlin heavily influences and control Assad that this is why they are killing so many Syrian civilians.
 
  In the past we have also seen many terrorists with Russian made weapons. Russian agents must have had something to do with their training since the guns somehow found their way into their hands the Russian government must be a sponsor a terrorism and secretly works to overthrow governments to put their puppet Russian proxy governments in their place.


See if all these terrorists weren't running around with Russian weapons and training from KGB and Kremlin agents of Putin then their puppet governments would not exist according to your logic.

 

 

[Murmillus_Prime]

   

  The problem with both of your arguments is that they are based on taking a sequence of events out of order to fit your own views without any regard to facts or evidence. Exaggerating and assuming cause and effect scenarios to fit your own twisted view of how things play out is not factual.

 If we wanted to go down the route of baseless accusations then we should also assume that Assad's Army is killing civilians because their Russian military advisers Kremlin agents trained them to do so. Russia has a history of murdering civilians in their past wars of Chechnya, Afghanistan and even against their own people in the past. We should throw all logic and facts out the window and assume that because the Kremlin heavily influences and control Assad that this is why they are killing so many Syrian civilians.
 
  In the past Russia we have also seen many terrorists with Russian made weapons. Russian agents must have had something to do with their training since the guns somehow found their way into their hands the Russian government must be a sponsor a terrorism and secretly works to overthrow governments to put their puppet Russian proxy governments in their place.

 

Instead of throwing around random accusations, why don't you pick out some points that I've made and then debate, argue or refute them? You're making insane sweeping statements without any real substance and then accuse me of doing the same. Up your "game" buddy.

[Grytviken]

Instead of throwing around random accusations, why don't you pick out some points that I've made and then argue or refute them? You're making insane sweeping statements without any real substance and then accuse me of doing the same. Up your "game" buddy.

  When will Russia learn their lesson defending dictators and supporting regimes that murder civilians!! oh the horor! It must be because of the Kremlin Agents sending weapons everywhere and their secret operations to control puppet leader like Assad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Economic_importance_and_history_of_arms_sales

Russia needs to control the Syrian government with their Kremlin agents and Mercenaries to make money off of their military industrial complex, proof is here.


 

[Murmillus_Prime]

  When will Russia learn their lesson defending dictators and supporting regimes that murder civilians!! oh the horor! It must be because of the Kremlin Agents sending weapons everywhere and their secret operations to control puppet leader like Assad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Economic_importance_and_history_of_arms_sales

Russia needs to control the Syrian government with their Kremlin agents and Mercenaries to make money off of their military industrial complex, proof is here.

You've still failed to debate, argue or refute my points. Instead you're now trying to redirect. I could probably give you numerous examples of the West backing dictators, murderers and despots, but what's the point? Anyone on this forum worth their salt is already aware of this.

Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari and Bahraini crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians? Or Netanyahu's butchering of the Palestinians, or the U.S's collateral damage?

[Grytviken]

You've still failed to debate, argue or refute my points. Instead you're now trying to redirect. I could probably give you numerous examples of the West backing dictators, murderers and despots, but what's the point? Anyone on this forum worth their salt is already aware of this.

Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians?

Must be CIA black ops !!! omg!!! they must be using their mind control devices on thousands of poor people who loved their authoritarian dictatorships and peaceful religions.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Must be CIA black ops !!! omg!!! they must be using their mind control devices on thousands of poor people who loved their authoritarian dictatorships and peaceful religions.

Xant is much better at trolling than you. I'll give your effort 3/5 stars.

[Grytviken]

Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari and Bahraini crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians? Or Netanyahu's butchering of the Palestinians, or the U.S's collateral damage?

 And you think that any country in the world can convince these people that they shouldn't kill each other? It's obviously a security problem for Saudi-Arabia to have an Iranian backed coup government on their boarder with many lawless regions inside the country that operate terrorist training camps.

 And by the way the US does try to pressure Saudi Arabia to change their ways, but that doesn't mean they listen or care to listen. Saudi Arabia and Iran are ideological enemies.  And Iran has intervened in many conflicts throughout the region and created many enemies themselves.

In Ukraine it goes both ways I guess. Shelling kills civilians and Russian separatists shot down a civilian airliner, both sides are not great here.

 
Israel doesn't listen to anyone, and I don't blame them.

[Grytviken]

Xant is much better at trolling than you. I'll give your effort 3/5 stars.

So it's only trolling if I take things out of context with total disregard to the present situation or sequence of events, it's nice that you at least came to terms with your own standards of retardation.

I also much prefer Vovka, at least I know he is probably drunk and deeply in love with Putin.

[Murmillus_Prime]

And you think that any country in the world can convince these people that they shouldn't kill each other? It's obviously a security problem for Saudi-Arabia to have an Iranian backed coup government on their boarder with many lawless regions inside the country that operate terrorist training camps.

 And by the way the US does try to pressure Saudi Arabia to change their ways, but that doesn't mean they listen or care to listen. Saudi Arabia and Iran are ideological enemies.  And Iran has intervened in many conflicts throughout the region and created many enemies themselves.

In Ukraine it goes both ways I guess. Shelling kills civilians and Russian separatists shot down a civilian airliner, both sides are not great here.

 
Israel doesn't listen to anyone, and I don't blame them.

Ah right, you criticise me for stating Assad is better for Syria than IS, Al-Nusra and other AL-Qaeda affiliates but you defend Saudi-Arabia's actions? I think we're done here.