cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: BASNAK on August 22, 2012, 04:39:02 pm

Title: EU1 These Days.
Post by: BASNAK on August 22, 2012, 04:39:02 pm
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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: TurmoilTom on August 22, 2012, 04:41:23 pm
Not entirely true he isn't wearing a kuyak and using a danish greatsword.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: donib on August 22, 2012, 04:41:40 pm
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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Rage_Guy on August 22, 2012, 04:47:17 pm
I understand why most of infantry are hoplites - ranged and cav everywhere.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Akynos on August 22, 2012, 04:49:04 pm
As stupid as it may sound, I'd like to know the reason why there are so many archers nowadays.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Rebelyell on August 22, 2012, 04:52:02 pm
i have 10 IF now soo i am not dying from one lucky shot
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Molly on August 22, 2012, 04:52:54 pm
As stupid as it may sound, I'd like to know the reason why there are so many archers nowadays.
That is a valid question.

Someone said few days back something about it being strat related but I kinda don't get that. Otherwise I don't get it either why there are so many now. Cav and archers used to be somehow self-regulating themselves.
I dont mind cav or archers - just the sheer number is... annoying.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 22, 2012, 04:53:08 pm
he just posted cos he said in chat that he died like leonidas :wink:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on August 22, 2012, 05:13:03 pm
Nerf easy mode builds aka Archers  :lol:

Make some risk vs reward balance for once..
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Butan on August 22, 2012, 05:16:23 pm
i have 10 IF now soo i am not dying from one lucky shot


You sir win at life.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Fips on August 22, 2012, 05:24:24 pm
As stupid as it may sound, I'd like to know the reason why there are so many archers nowadays.

It's funny to shoot those melee-heroes in the face and watch them QQ.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: bagge on August 22, 2012, 05:29:12 pm
More like this:

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Or is it only me that are always on the otherside of the cavfest :(
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gurnisson on August 22, 2012, 05:47:08 pm
(click to show/hide)

^
Look at what the shortcuts are. Ask yourself again why there's a lot of cav and ranged out there.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumbs on August 22, 2012, 06:03:17 pm
People that were archers before did it despite not always getting a decent position on the scoreboard. Now we have dedicated archers as well as people who just want to score points while being able to survive easier over the whole course of a round. Longer you survive + longer you are able to put out damage = higher score. People naturally want to play classes that allow you to apply damage from distance with low risk but still good reward. You will see that in every game that allows that playstyle.

Just need more risks for ranged classes, like heavier equipment, having to make each shot count (less ammo, harder to scavange ammo etc), longer time to draw the bow back, longer reload for crossbow, tiring arms if you spam, no arrow stagger, Horse Archery reduces horse movement speed etc. Loads of ways to do it. Damage from range should come at a huge premium in terms of risk. If this were some sci-fi game you know you would have some more player skill based counters to ranged, like manual blocking (hitting slower projectiles out of the sky as they approach). As it is we have to have some realism counters like shields or some other physical cover. Otherwise you just have to make the class hard to play or you will always have this issue, virtually regardless of how much damage the class does.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Paul on August 22, 2012, 06:04:35 pm
For me melee is easy mode on EU1. Always top section of scoreboard, low ranged pressure even with many archers around, biggest impact on round outcome. Actually playing an archer and doing well is challenging - doing it as melee, either cav or on foot is not.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumbs on August 22, 2012, 06:09:46 pm
Well it should be. The melee mechanics in mount & blade far surpass the ranged in terms of depth. We just have crosshairs and projectiles. Add some depth with free aim, movement of bow (not rock steady), slower projectiles etc. Bring it up to par with the depth of melee mechanics and then it might be alright. As it is this is very much a melee centric game just from the game mechanics available. I don't expect big overhauls for ranged though, thats more for sequel but they can be compensated for that with some tweaks. For now though people are largely here because M&B has such good melee mechanics. Its such a waste to spoil it with snipers, you might even drive people away when other melee type games comes out
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: baybars on August 22, 2012, 07:00:16 pm
even though i agree there are too many archers which reminds me of sniper spam in bf3 you cant really do anything about it, if we were to limit the class then the archers would complain and you would need to limit other classes which i dont think is a good idea
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 07:04:26 pm
Well it should be. The melee mechanics in mount & blade far surpass the ranged in terms of depth. We just have crosshairs and projectiles. Add some depth with free aim, movement of bow (not rock steady), slower projectiles etc. Bring it up to par with the depth of melee mechanics and then it might be alright. As it is this is very much a melee centric game just from the game mechanics available. I don't expect big overhauls for ranged though, thats more for sequel but they can be compensated for that with some tweaks. For now though people are largely here because M&B has such good melee mechanics. Its such a waste to spoil it with snipers, you might even drive people away when other melee type games comes out
Eh, melee ain't really that deep, ain't much deeper than ranged, ain't much deeper than cav...
Only difference is that most people play tons of shooter games and therefore once they learn to read the arch of flight and predict movement (not really that easier, in fact, maybe harder, than learning average melee shit) they'll pretty much be able to play efficiently.
Only issue with ranged is kiting and maybe it's also in need of a slight buff for all ranged weaponry, and kiting ain't op, it's just annoying and gay.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Riddaren on August 22, 2012, 07:27:54 pm
That is a valid question.

Someone said few days back something about it being strat related but I kinda don't get that. Otherwise I don't get it either why there are so many now. Cav and archers used to be somehow self-regulating themselves.
I dont mind cav or archers - just the sheer number is... annoying.

Archery
is very cheap in relation to how deadly it is.
Just increase the upkeep on bows. 300% should be enough.
The good and dedicated archers will still play but the amount of other archers will decrease.
It's a far better solution than nerfing archers.

Cavalry is already expensive though. Unless you go with low tier equipment which is still quite good.
Maybe increase upkeep of lower tier horses. Cavalry also needs to become harder to play. Both lance cav and 1H cav.

Something needs to be done with crossbows on horseback.
It's way too cheap for being the best anti cavalry class in the game (as they usually have 10 riding).

Horse archery should be made more accurate.
It takes skill to aim while moving. No need to nerf accuracy on horseback. That is just lame and very boring for those who enjoy horse archery.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 07:35:03 pm
For me melee is easy mode on EU1. Always top section of scoreboard, low ranged pressure even with many archers around, biggest impact on round outcome. Actually playing an archer and doing well is challenging - doing it as melee, either cav or on foot is not.
If that's the entire purpose of you playing, a challenge, why not nerf your melee playing? Go pure wakizashi.

This does not reflect the average opinion about melee play, and I highly doubt even 5% of the archers go archer because of this.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 07:44:26 pm

Archery
is very cheap in relation to how deadly it is.
Just increase the upkeep on bows. 300% should be enough.
The good and dedicated archers will still play but the amount of other archers will decrease.
It's a far better solution than nerfing archers.

Cavalry is already expensive though. Unless you go with low tier equipment which is still quite good.
Maybe increase upkeep of lower tier horses. Cavalry also needs to become harder to play. Both lance cav and 1H cav.

Something needs to be done with crossbows on horseback.
It's way too cheap for being the best anti cavalry class in the game (as they usually have 10 riding).

Horse archery should be made more accurate.
It takes skill to aim while moving. No need to nerf accuracy on horseback. That is just lame and very boring for those who enjoy horse archery.
Balancing via upkeep is sad and stupid, so, I gotta leech for X minutes to play Y minutes of fun playtime, seems pretty fucking stupid to me, would just make this another random Jap MMO if they made you leech around in order to have fun even more than now.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Riddaren on August 22, 2012, 07:47:07 pm
Balancing via upkeep is sad and stupid, so, I gotta leech for X minutes to play Y minutes of fun playtime, seems pretty fucking stupid to me, would just make this another random Jap MMO if they made you leech around in order to have fun even more than now.

Cavalry already pays 2-5 times more than the best equipped archers.
Your point is invalid.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on August 22, 2012, 07:51:08 pm
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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: killnaboy on August 22, 2012, 07:55:01 pm
I started playing crpg as an archer until I picked up a 2 handed sword on the battlefield and saw how easy it was. Now I play mostly with my 2 hander character, when I feel like playing easy mode!
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 07:55:27 pm
Cavalry already pays 2-5 times more than the best equipped archers.
Your point is invalid.
I believe that is wrong and believe it needs change, I do however not believe adding retardedly large amounts of upkeep to archers is a good way to fix cav paying retardedly high amounts of upkeep.
Also, archers got increased break chance on their arrows, ain't sure how much, so, typical kiting my old friend hornbowie= 1hornbow, 3 bodkin stacks, around 20k gear cost without counting the extra arrow upkeep which I'm pretty sure is there, now, typical rusbow my old friend gets a rus bow and 2 stacks of bodkins and a 0 slot hammer, it's still quite expensive.

IMO upkeep needs 100% removal and gear needs to be balanced so everything is unique and somehow better than something else instead of the typical "You get bigger rewards for playing something extremely boring/crippled Jap shit".
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Adamar on August 22, 2012, 08:01:48 pm
If that's the entire purpose of you playing, a challenge, why not nerf your melee playing? Go pure wakizashi.

This does not reflect the average opinion about melee play, and I highly doubt even 5% of the archers go archer because of this.

Melee is the most basic fighting mechanic in crpg. Why play a pure meleer when you can be an archer or a horseman as well?


Archery
is very cheap in relation to how deadly it is.
Just increase the upkeep on bows. 300% should be enough.
The good and dedicated archers will still play but the amount of other archers will decrease.
It's a far better solution than nerfing archers.

Increasing the cost of ranged will make archers switch to crapier armors and kite more. Im losing money with my scale armor as it is, dont make me join the runners.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: BASNAK on August 22, 2012, 08:05:26 pm
Well I think we all can agree on that, it does get quite problematic when the Riders of Rohan or all the archers end up in one team. And archery and cav isn't as easy as many people think - But they're too gay when all of them end up on one team which makes it difficult to counter.

And suggesting "amg u sux respec to kounter dem u my old friendit" is just wrong. The game should have atleast a small balance in classes, instead of people having to respecc to classes they never played before just because of imbalance.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 08:06:39 pm
Longbow + 2 stacks of bodkins + sickle + light armor = Me barely making money, and that's because I get decent multis. No need to change the cost, I'd what? have to not be an archer to upkeep my archery?
Just pointing out that isn't a solution. Arrow upkeep is ridiculous to keep archers in line on the upkeep regard already.

Oh, and yeah there are way too many archers in NA too, not just EU. It's amazing, really!

Archers, and cav? my god, Hopltie throwers counter both Super hard! Whatever clan goes 21/15 hoplite thrower is going to come out on top, with an army where everyone has shield, and ranged (dem throwins), and counter to cav.
oh wait why would anyone do something logical.
YOU ARE THE SOLUTION TO THE METAGAME
THIS ISSUE ISN'T BALANCE

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Turboflex on August 22, 2012, 08:08:05 pm
I thought everyone went archer to prepare for strat 4? cuz archers do very well at strat opening phase when everyone has peasant gear and weak shields?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Havoco on August 22, 2012, 08:09:16 pm
Quote
Okay, enough fun for one day.
Check the EU threads tomorrow for the "Daily EU drama thread."
It's their turn.

This thread may be shit, but at least we found out one thing. Noodles is psychic.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 08:09:20 pm
Melee is the most basic fighting mechanic in crpg. Why play a pure meleer when you can be an archer or a horseman as well?
Point and click shooting, that's basic. Riding around, point and click stabbing, that's somewhat basic. The 4 directional blocking/attacking combined, with teamplay, awareness, kicks, feints, stun, chambers and even kickchambers, that is by no definition simple or ordinary gameplay.

The melee system is interesting and unique to the extent, that I see no reason to waste time with the inferior gameplay that is archery or cavalry. It is far from as satisfying as the melee combat.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: tizzango on August 22, 2012, 08:14:52 pm
I thought everyone went archer to prepare for strat 4? cuz archers do very well at strat opening phase when everyone has peasant gear and weak shields?


boom.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: camperus on August 22, 2012, 08:17:31 pm
Archer is hard to play, harder than 2h at least for me. Really i dont understand so much rage against archers, the problem is the cavalry (u dont need so much skill to stay top on score with my old friendvalry).
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tibe on August 22, 2012, 08:40:17 pm
(click to show/hide)

^
Look at what the shortcuts are. Ask yourself again why there's a lot of cav and ranged out there.

You know what, this badly made sketch is  the most accurate interpitation of C-rpg ive ever seen in my life. I exactly ran trough that sketch the entire time of my Crpg playin time. Currently im stuck in the endless fight part of the sketch.

But yea...been avoiding EU 1 and C-rpg overall for a while now. Rangednerf is way bigger than before. Cant really get into proper melee these days and im quite sad.

And did someone acctually mention archery being hard. Well yea...mybe at first. But once you get MW bow and MW arrows with a good archer build  you'd might as well type /god in some console. Cause than archers do about as much dam as a freaking arbalest. Even if lacking any type of aiming skills, that alone would guarantee you a top at the scoreboard if you ran from fights like a coward and shot pointblank.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumbs on August 22, 2012, 08:49:46 pm
When you die in a melee fight you can say "**** missed that block, wasn't aware of that guy, overextended, used wrong attack direction, misstimed the attack etc." With ranged its more about how well the other player judged his shot. The way to counter ranged is to simply avoid the entire class or hold a shield. Its not really fun gameplay for anyone except the guy shooting. With cav the player at least has to put himself in some risk in order to do some damage. I can be more aware by using tilde key, jump out of his way, look like i'm not aware of him and spin around with a stab that stuns his horse. Sure they can also have some cheap ways to kill, like bumps or some lance kills but it doesn't compare to someone playing a virtually different game to everyone else. Ranged guys test their own skill, and even then you can fail over and over and yet the one time you hit you score a kill or do some damage/stagger a player. Its very one sided skill rather than player vs player. I wouldn't mind just having more player skill based counters

I don't want to be disrespectful to archers/crossbow men though. We have some very skilled players, its just that they feel out of place sometimes, and we just have so many of them. Also for the random archer/crossbow guys, when you have nearly half your team shooting then they will hit something regardless of skill
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Adamar on August 22, 2012, 08:53:55 pm
Point and click shooting, that's basic. Riding around, point and click stabbing, that's somewhat basic. The 4 directional blocking/attacking combined, with teamplay, awareness, kicks, feints, stun, chambers and even kickchambers, that is by no definition simple or ordinary gameplay.

The melee system is interesting and unique to the extent, that I see no reason to waste time with the inferior gameplay that is archery or cavalry. It is far from as satisfying as the melee combat.

You dont "click and shoot" in ranged. Its way harder to hit and kill people with a bow than with a gs. And I meant basic melee as in, everybody does it, shitty ranged killscore a side, why shouldn't we shoot and ride as well?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Riddaren on August 22, 2012, 08:58:53 pm
(click to show/hide)

^
Look at what the shortcuts are. Ask yourself again why there's a lot of cav and ranged out there.

I wouldn't say that any class is easier than another.
They all got their pros and cons. You just have to adapt and play it the best possible way.

But for some reason and even though you are one of the best players, atleast as a polearmer, you just have to go berserk against cavalry on the forums.
Of all votes you have done on my post it's like 1 upvote and 99 down votes. Can't think of any player hating cavalry more than you.

It's a shame that someone with so much hate for other classes is a game admin.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Paul on August 22, 2012, 09:25:53 pm
Point and click shooting, that's basic. Riding around, point and click stabbing, that's somewhat basic. The 4 directional blocking/attacking combined, with teamplay, awareness, kicks, feints, stun, chambers and even kickchambers, that is by no definition simple or ordinary gameplay.

The melee system is interesting and unique to the extent, that I see no reason to waste time with the inferior gameplay that is archery or cavalry. It is far from as satisfying as the melee combat.

This kind of attitude makes me sick. Both cav and ranged have their own skill levels, while melee in battle is more about hack and slay than dueling deepness. Instead of actually seeing that the true deepness would lie in combined teamplay of cav, inf and range; one just elevates one's own playstyle above they others.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Riddaren on August 22, 2012, 09:32:17 pm
One more thing Gurnisson:

That picture says cavalry and archers are the least aware players.
Who are these cavalry players and archers?

From my experience I find the best archers extremely aware. Can't say the same about the best melee players.
There might be a bunch of bad cavalry players but to be a good one high awareness is a requirement.

If any class, it must be polearm that requires least awareness.

I begin to understand why you hate cavalry and archers so much.
Looking forward to try you out.

This kind of attitude makes me sick. Both cav and ranged have their own skill levels, while melee in battle is more about hack and slay than dueling deepness. Instead of actually seeing that the true deepness would lie in combined teamplay of cav, inf and range; one just elevates one's own playstyle above they others.

Totally agree.
I'm getting so tired of players thinking their own way of playing takes most skill while all other classes and playstyles are either OP or easy mode...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Silicium on August 22, 2012, 09:33:18 pm
Point and click shooting, that's basic.
What does this have to do with cRPG? If cRPG was like this you would see the avarage archer getting some 20+ kills. If an archer excell at what he's doing that's because he trained for it and knowing wen to synchronise a shoot from the distance hes target is.

Have seen you play and shoot you many time's, you don't even try to dogde ageisn't archers you just charge head on then finnally jump and get killed , no wonder you whine so much.
Riding around, point and click stabbing, that's somewhat basic
I will agree with that, but their are some other builds that make cav harder but not everyone as the time or the patiance to do that.
The 4 directional blocking/attacking combined, with teamplay, awareness, kicks, feints, stun, chambers and even kickchambers, that is by no definition simple or ordinary gameplay.
You think that this dosen't apply to other classes? hell you don't even master half of the stuff you mentioned

The melee system is interesting and unique to the extent, that I see no reason to waste time with the inferior gameplay that is archery or cavalry. It is far from as satisfying as the melee combat.
that's your opinion, in ma case i found being an archer far more challenging, having no wfp in 1hander and managing to kill a full geared polearm/2hander/shielder is better then just having to run around as infantry and doing the same thing over agein.


Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 09:43:04 pm
This kind of attitude makes me sick. Both cav and ranged have their own skill levels, while melee in battle is more about hack and slay than dueling deepness.
Melee in battle goes beyond duelling in deepness, duelling is only half the skill. Maneuvering, picking your targets, helping the right people is what makes every round of battle so interesting. Ofcourse the battle awareness thing can be found in cav and ranged, but not to the same extent. Due to ranged not having to get close, and cav having supreme maneuverability. While melee has to get in the face of their opponents while not being faster than them.

My overall point with my earlier post is, that the melee combat in this game is what makes it truly unique and what has kept most of us playing all these years. I'm not saying that archery and cav don't require skill, that type of gameplay is just closer to what you can find in other games and that is not why I'm here.

Instead of actually seeing that the true deepness would lie in combined teamplay of cav, inf and range;
I am well aware of this and that is why I am praying on my knees that the clan battle scene of cRPG would come alive again. That is when the dynamics between infantry, ranged and cavalry decide the outcome. Organized small battles are the best thing this game has to offer.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ad1no on August 22, 2012, 09:46:56 pm
This kind of attitude makes me sick. Both cav and ranged have their own skill levels, while melee in battle is more about hack and slay than dueling deepness. Instead of actually seeing that the true deepness would lie in combined teamplay of cav, inf and range; one just elevates one's own playstyle above they others.

It's this kind of attitude that sickens me. Developers who aren't good at the game and out of touch with the community who refuse to be corrected.

A hard head makes for a soft ass.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Renegat on August 22, 2012, 09:52:27 pm
For me melee is easy mode on EU1. Always top section of scoreboard

So in your opinion, melee is now easier because they always top the scorboard? But toping the scorboard is now about doing points per damages, and points for damaging someone is giving according to your class : I headshot someone who had full life : 6 points maybe. I kill someone who had full life as a 1h/2h/pole/lancer : at least 8 or 10 points.
So of course melee always top the scoreboard if they get more than ranged for doing same damages :s But that will never proof melee are ez mod ...

low ranged pressure even with many archers around, biggest impact on round outcome.

Are you often playing on eu1 or even crpg? Cause my feeling about that is totally different :s

Actually playing an archer and doing well is challenging - doing it as melee, either cav or on foot is not.

If your goal is to top the scoreboard, then yes it's "challenging" to play ranged. But it's not challenging to do well as a ranged, as you said. Archers have not been nerfed (as far as i know) and they even got a very slight buff thx to the jump/shoot thingy. But if your goal is to have fun, as an inf, it's not that easy. Personally, i prefer having 30 for 3 deaths kills and a shit score than 1 kill for 6 deaths and toping the scoreboard ... But it might not be the case for everyone i guess.


Ps :
Quote
A hard head makes for a soft ass.
hahahaha
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 09:52:40 pm
What does this have to do with cRPG? If cRPG was like this you would see the avarage archer getting some 20+ kills. If an archer excell at what he's doing that's because he trained for it and knowing wen to synchronise a shoot from the distance hes target is.
Not sure what your point does to my point. I'm saying melee combat is what truly sets this game apart to the extent that playing archery or cav feels like a waste to me, personally. I'm not talking about balance of archery.

Have seen you play and shoot you many time's, you don't even try to dogde ageisn't archers you just charge head on then finnally jump and get killed , no wonder you whine so much.
No I don't, I can't be arsed to kite an archer for more than 20 seconds, so that's why I jump at them to close the gap they leave. Otherwise they will just keep on running. If the archer makes a mistake, it means that I get a very satisfying jumpkill, if he doesn't I die. I don't care, cause in these situations it's either keep following him and dodge, or turn around and get shot in the arse. I prefer the death or glory way out.

I haven't whined about the strength archery in ages, only about the mechanics which can be fixed so easily, but retards keep on retarding.

You think that this dosen't apply to other classes? hell you don't even master half of the stuff you mentioned
Nice, take a stab at me, thats the way to discuss something. It does apply to other classes, when you are bored of kiting or get dehorsed. The time that you spent shooting and kiting or on a horse, are not as enjoyable to me as being an infantryman on the floor. Again, opinion.

that's your opinion, in ma case i found being an archer far more challenging, having no wfp in 1hander and managing to kill a full geared polearm/2hander/shielder is better then just having to run around as infantry and doing the same thing over agein.
Yep that was my opinion, this is yours. Still it is a fact that the melee combat system is what sets this game truly apart. Ofcourse archers and cav are a part of this, but that's not for me.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lansamur on August 22, 2012, 09:54:45 pm
that's your opinion, in ma case i found being an archer far more challenging, having no wfp in 1hander and managing to kill a full geared polearm/2hander/shielder is better then just having to run around as infantry and doing the same thing over agein.

Pretty much this. Archery is the most challenging class cRPG has to offer. Being a Kuyak-Greatsword hero isn't hard, same as abusing speedbonus as agi-whored swashbuckler (without the buckler).just point and right- or leftclick as you please, then hit "S". Chambering isn't that hard either as you make it out to be. I taught someone to chamber in less than an hour, and his playtime in cRPG was about 3 hours beforehand.

Teeth, you're favoring one class, which you are just specialising in, and completely leave out the notion that archers always need to carry sidearms for melee. Cav needs sidearms, cause Lances aren't all that great in closerange melee on the ground when their horse is dead. Please, next time you're going to start melee-propaganda again, at least try to think beforehand of your arguments. Hybrids will always be weaker in comparison to specialised and making the most out of one single-skill builders. Thus, it is actually a lot more challenging and skill-reliant to play 2 classes at once and still excelling at them, managing to actually top a scoreboard or 2.

Additionally, I guess the actual numbers of ranged players are still about even to earlier times. I certainly haven't felt a difference to before. cRPG-playerbase will ALWAYS whine about ranged, archers especially, cause they never bother to actually think about suitably countering them, either with a shield or by doding them.

PS: Ad1no, do you know Paul? I guess not. One of the best 1h-ers ingame (without shield, mind you), and him probably also having played pretty much every class as an Item-balancer. You just don't know, cause he uses unknown alts.

PPS: Renegat: Really? Archery not nerfed? That has to be... the first patch since the last 20 that it has not been nerfed in any way. Get real.

I like the new score system, as it actually shows who is a teamplayer, and who is just a killstealing bundle of sticks intent on just getting the last hit for his e-peen.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tibe on August 22, 2012, 09:57:17 pm
Hack & slay means completely different stuff. Teeth pretty much rounded it up. You are complete crap if you just consentrate on duel. In battle you have to be full aware while also trying to block, dodge arrows and cav. Melee is really the only thang that kept us playin.

Cav with lance is just pokey pokey and backstabbing less aware players, not particularly hard. Just seriuslly expensive class.

Archery is just endless shooting. Personaly I hate archers due to them using dirty tactics. Getting shot in the face during a fight is fine by me. But when last players of the round are some shitbag archers who just jump far away from melee fighters and pointblankshoot is what really draws me away from the game completely. If it was up to me id make those damn bows wieght atleast 80. :twisted:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Thomek on August 22, 2012, 09:57:36 pm
It's this kind of attitude that sickens me. Developers who aren't good at the game and out of touch with the community who refuse to be corrected.

A hard head makes for a soft ass.

FYI Paul is very very good at the game. Probably one of the best, if not the best.. Especially dueling. :)

He's also very stubborn.

In my opinion we are discussing this from the wrong perspective.

We should have an opinion of what gives the most fun to the most of players. Then we will have a good game balance.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 09:58:01 pm
Pretty much this. Archery is the most challenging class cRPG has to offer. Being a Kuyak-Greatsword hero isn't hard, same as abusing speedbonus as agi-whored swashbuckler (without the buckler).just point and right- or leftclick as you please, then hit "S". Chambering isn't that hard either as you make it out to be. I taught someone to chamber in less than an hour, and his playtime in cRPG was about 3 hours beforehand.
Respectfully disagree sir, ever tried stone thrower? That shit is hard.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumbs on August 22, 2012, 09:59:28 pm
FYI Paul is very very good at the game. Probably one of the best, if not the best.. Especially dueling. :)

He's also very stubborn.

I think people forget just whats involved with melee in this game, simply because they played so long and are so good at it. when you're personally very good at it yourself you miss what most players are going through as they play. It becomes second nature. Simply stringing some manual blocks together takes more skill than firing a bow and sometimes hitting stuff, imo ofc
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Babelfish on August 22, 2012, 10:00:02 pm
Developers who aren't good at the game

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lansamur on August 22, 2012, 10:00:08 pm
Respectfully disagree sir, ever tried stone thrower? That shit is hard.

Yup. 10 PT Catapulteer at your command!
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: karasu on August 22, 2012, 10:00:30 pm
/me points at his signature.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Teeth on August 22, 2012, 10:04:58 pm
(click to show/hide)
Paul uses a shield.

Again, I am not talking about the strength of archery or cav, I am just talking about the melee combat being the best gameplay I've ever played and the cav and ranged gameplay not quite being able to compare. That is my opinion, but I think it's the melee combat that ultimately made this game last for most of us for such a long time. That is all. I am well aware that topping the board is not that hard as melee, actually as a swashbuckler it's somewhat challenging.

Chambering isn't that hard either as you make it out to be.
I can count the people that regularly chamber on two hands, and thats on duel.

Archery has a different skill curve then melee. You reach near the top of your potential skill level as an archer in like ten hours. It's the true mastering of the class thats going to take you hundreds of hours. With melee you can consistently improve on so much different aspects, the skill curve is more gradual, but true mastery is never reached at all.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 10:07:18 pm
It's this kind of attitude that sickens me. Developers who aren't good at the game and out of touch with the community who refuse to be corrected.

A hard head makes for a soft ass.
(click to show/hide)
As long as what you're discussion is all based on opinion, with no real evidence to support either claim then it's all about belief, there is no fact, there is no right, there can be no correction.

EDIT: The spoiler contains a complete incoherent rant caused by me being frustrated by the idiotic elitism of Ad1no, outside the spoiler the remaining part of my post still stands.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: XyNox on August 22, 2012, 10:10:02 pm
Nothing has changed much since the last great archery discussions I see ...

Thinking that archery is about "point and click" is the very reason for it to be viable in the first place, as this statement only reveals the lack of knowledge and insight about the class to counter it.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 22, 2012, 10:17:27 pm
Thinking that archery is about "point and click" is the very reason for it to be viable in the first place, as this statement only reveals the lack of knowledge and insight about the class to counter it.
Yeah, archery is also W key for an hour then point and click again.  :mrgreen:
Seriously though, archery is far more difficult than melee, while it may not be as unique then it's still more difficult and just 'cuss you consider melee more fun to play doesn't mean archery needs to be pushed out of the way 'n' shit and I guess I'm wrong in my belief that the mod would be more fun for everyone if kiting was removed, I'll always believe no spots on battle maps should be 100% unreachable for cav and still be reachable for regular players, but this is purely due to believing that nothing should 100% counter something else and fuck, I just don't know... I don't like not being able to fight anything I guess, that's how I think all meleers would feel about kiting, but eh...
...fuck?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bonze on August 22, 2012, 10:25:48 pm
For me melee is easy mode on EU1. Always top section of scoreboard, low ranged pressure even with many archers around, biggest impact on round outcome. Actually playing an archer and doing well is challenging - doing it as melee, either cav or on foot is not.

Out of touch with reality.

That's why we had every week 100.000.000.000 threads about ranged ..since 2 years .. :twisted:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bonze on August 22, 2012, 10:27:04 pm
Nothing has changed much since the last great archery discussions 2010 I see ...

Thinking that archery is about "point and click" is the very reason for it to be viable in the first place, as this statement only reveals the lack of knowledge and insight about the class to counter it.



 :wink:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 10:28:04 pm
What?

You can say lots of things about the different classes.
As someone who plays them all, is a pretty good melee duelist, and my main is currently an archer for nearly three months...

Archery is lots of things, but it isn't hard. You can hype it up all you want, but it really is just point and click and easy kills. Melee combat is soo much harder and more intricate -- However with that said, to get kills you only have to be better than who you are going AGAINST to get kills. So since most people aren't good, you'll get tons of kills easily, but still not as easily as archery.

And cav picks all their battles due to maneuver and speed, so a smart player can get 20-1 easier on cav, than that same player could as archer or melee. With the new valour system, smart cav have an advantage due to the ability to rack up tons of points by picking fights and dishing out damage safely.
(click to show/hide)
But cav aren't really that OP either. A single slip up in attention will get you dehorsed and killed. It is simply a Different skill-set.



The game is balanced right now. The only issue is there has been a shift in the METAGAME. There are more archers and cav now, which means we need more shielders, hoplites, etc. it'll balance itself out back to a different % of player base being different things.
This is not an issue with balance. This is an issue of What do YOU want to see the battle be? Be it.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Renegat on August 22, 2012, 10:31:19 pm
Quote
PPS: Renegat: Really? Archery not nerfed? That has to be... the first patch since the last 20 that it has not been nerfed in any way. Get real.

lol yes, they have been so much nerfed that their number increased (or at least remains stable) ... Stop repeating ranged propaganda
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gravoth_iii on August 22, 2012, 10:34:23 pm
Archers are squishy, easy kills. And they barely do any damage, I approve of more archery.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Thomek on August 22, 2012, 10:35:09 pm
The game is balanced right now. The only issue is there has been a shift in the METAGAME. There are more archers and cav now, which means we need more shielders, hoplites, etc. it'll balance itself out back to a different % of player base being different things.
This is not an issue with balance. This is an issue of What do YOU want to see the battle be? Be it.

This is true.

But who wants to be a hoplite or shielder once you mastered manual fighting? Where's the fun in that? Then it's easier to say fuck it and become a cav or archer yourself. I'm afraid that that is where the metagame is going.. And to counter it we need some changes.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Jacko on August 22, 2012, 10:38:04 pm
Time to make fake changes to shift the metagame again.

Wait..
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 10:40:03 pm
This is true.

But who wants to be a hoplite or shielder once you mastered manual fighting? Where's the fun in that? Then it's easier to say fuck it and become a cav or archer yourself. I'm afraid that that is where the metagame is going.. And to counter it we need some changes.
Glad you understand my worries.

As for 2h and manual block mastery, I know that feeling... to 2hs out there: fFr the last year and a half or so long, I've recommended in all my 2h/pole builds 1 point in shield. So you can carry it on your back and use it for transit to battlegrounds and protection from archers.
I still recommend it. And people always put that point in ironflesh or WM instead. That shield helps sooo much, especially now.

And there is nothing worng with being a hoplite/1h shielder and putting your shield away as soon as you're not being shot at. Eghh
Time to make fake changes to shift the metagame again.

Wait..
(click to show/hide)

No, but really, our maps need WAY more cover. All of them. It'll make them more fun, and fix this problem. Metagame and map issue /thread.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: HUtH on August 22, 2012, 10:45:52 pm
Recently I went mounted with bastard...(second respec), because of my poor machine(30 fps isn't often for me...) and therefore problems in fighting(and I will never use permablock shield) and because it's real fun to bump people and get fast in most places on map... generally it's easier to avoid shooters and infantry mass and "hit and run" tactics work well usually.
Generally being footman without shield or fuken big sword/pole and heavy armor is tough... being only supportive with pikes or throwing stuff isn't very satisfying for me... but I shot people 10 years in CoD etc., so choice of cav is obvious.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bulzur on August 22, 2012, 10:47:35 pm
lol yes, they have been so much nerfed that their number increased (or at least remains stable) ... Stop repeating ranged propaganda

We've been so nerfed that we actually need to be more than 30% of the server population to be able to do something without getting slaughter right away. And when "archers" OWN the server, you can actually only see 2 archers per team in the top 10. Then there's average cav/melee, depending on the map.

Also, at the moment, i really feel like hoplites are the class that gets most advantages from the score system. But our 2handers hero would never complain about them, cause it would be accepting the fact that they died to a oneAttack-direction guy with a shield. Unacceptable.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Swaggart on August 22, 2012, 10:47:43 pm
that's your opinion, in ma case i found being an archer far more challenging, having no wfp in 1hander and managing to kill a full geared polearm/2hander/shielder is better then just having to run around as infantry and doing the same thing over agein.

What does killing someone in melee have to do with archery being hard?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Leshma on August 22, 2012, 10:54:30 pm
As of lately I play EU2 or EU7. Great fun, great atmosphere.

EU1 is toxic.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lezard on August 22, 2012, 10:59:24 pm
FYI Paul is very very good at the game. Probably one of the best, if not the best.. Especially dueling. :)

There is one player I really respect in this game, and that is Paul. However, to be blunt, he's skill in archery and cavalry play is lacking compared to his melee skills. Obviously melee is easy mode from his point of view because he's so good at it.

Just throwing that out. I can't agree with people saying archery or cavalry is harder than melee. Different skill-set, but definitely not harder or deeper than melee gameplay.

As said many times before, the problem with ranged and cavalry are when their numbers gets too high. Too much ranged and cavalry sucks. It's not fun to play against as melee. Doesn't matter if you have a shield or not.

No idea how to "fix it" without nerfing ranged and cavalry to the ground, other then putting a cap on the number of cavalry and ranged allowed...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumbs on August 22, 2012, 11:04:06 pm
How about more accuracy, Less ammo. Let people hit as long as they make a good shot but get rid of archer spam. I don't like RNG determining if someone hits or not, let them be accurate but have some negatives to go with that. The good archers will get hits, bad archers will get better or play melee/cav
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 22, 2012, 11:04:32 pm
More cover, more city maps, etc will fix it.
too many open village maps. Villages are fine, but all these villages are so strangely empty! Not enough equipment and general- living things around for an old village from both realistic and balance standpoint. Need more Clutter. For example, Every building should have a huge woodpile somewhere within 15 feet lest they want to freeze to death in the winter. Place them so they are convenient cover for advancing ifnantry, people jumping behind from cav/archer fire, archers to peak aorund, etc. USEFUL PROPS.

Fuck I need to learn mapping don't I. be the change you want to see eh? I'll be moving to a place with shit internet in a week, convenient eh...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lansamur on August 22, 2012, 11:26:32 pm
lol yes, they have been so much nerfed that their number increased (or at least remains stable) ... Stop repeating ranged propaganda

To compensate nerfs, they increased their numbers. Their fault? Hardly. It's like the question of what came first, the egg or the hen?

I am currently not even playing any ranged chars, nor do I have any at my disposal. But I remember the hardship archery has been when I tried it out for about 2-3 generations. You all seem to forget, or actually never have known, that not all arrows fly straight. People whine the hardest about ranged teamhitting them, while probably ranged teamhits won't even cause 30% of the overall teamdamage done per round. Learning curve in archery? I'll give in to the point that it's mainly just point and click, but you never seem to count in human factors. Reaction time, enemy movement, enemy dodges, server-weather, all things factors that give me a headache everytime I'm starting a ranged char. The hitratio of an average archer is maybe 3 out of 10, if he gets lucky, and 1 will probably be a teamhit. You simply don't have those problems as a meleer. 9 out of 10 strikes hit the target (enemy AND friend), in some way you almost always stun (ever so slightly even) your enemy/friend, whether in duel or battle doesnt really matter. In great numbers EVERY class will be OP and cause cascades of whine to fall down on the devs. Again, get real.



Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Youhou on August 23, 2012, 12:04:13 am
I have played as 2hander many gens but I also used to play archer. When I started cRPG I went archer because I sucked at melee. As archer I could get decent scores with low amounts of deaths. Playing as an archer I ran into melee fights sometimes and I really enjoyed them and after my build got nerfed (didnt know how to make good one) I went full 2hander. I enjoy having fights against 2 or more people and still coming out as a winner. For me melee is most enjoyable class.

Ranged today is really effective. I can be 2 shotted by dedicated archers which are damn accurate and usually there are more than one archer shooting me. Getting close to them is hard because of their speed. I have few options:

1. I wait when the round starts so amount of ranged have decreased
2. I use my skillpoints to shield, which slows me down
3. Use my team as meatwall
4. Dance like retard and still get hit
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 12:12:04 am
You know what, this badly made sketch is  the most accurate interpitation of C-rpg ive ever seen in my life. I exactly ran trough that sketch the entire time of my Crpg playin time. Currently im stuck in the endless fight part of the sketch.

But yea...been avoiding EU 1 and C-rpg overall for a while now. Rangednerf is way bigger than before. Cant really get into proper melee these days and im quite sad.

And did someone acctually mention archery being hard. Well yea...mybe at first. But once you get MW bow and MW arrows with a good archer build  you'd might as well type /god in some console. Cause than archers do about as much dam as a freaking arbalest. Even if lacking any type of aiming skills, that alone would guarantee you a top at the scoreboard if you ran from fights like a coward and shot pointblank.

So why are most archers NOT on top? Even counting the loomed ones who are almost always BELOW the loomed Cav or Front-Line Infantry? I'm talking both Kills as well as Score points here.

We apparently play two very different games as a significantly larger portion of the melee base has higher scores then the range base does on average. When the devs released the "Total Damage Done By Weapon" stats a while back, bow damage was about 9% of all damage for both NA and EU, so... Where is my Godmode?

New Archer =/= Old Archery.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ad1no on August 23, 2012, 12:18:35 am
So why are most archers NOT on top? Even counting the loomed ones who are almost always BELOW the loomed Cav or Front-Line Infantry? I'm talking both Kills as well as Score points here.

We apparently play two very different games as a significantly larger portion of the melee base has higher scores then the range base does on average. When the devs released the "Total Damage Done By Weapon" stats a while back, bow damage was about 9% of all damage for both NA and EU, so... Where is my Godmode?

New Archer =/= Old Archery.

This is such failed logic it hurts my brain. Why does melee do the most dmg in a round? BECAUSE THEY ARE HITTING OTHER MELEE!

Obviously they are not chasing down archers for top scores.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 12:22:44 am
This is such failed logic it hurts my brain. Why does melee do the most dmg in a round? BECAUSE THEY ARE HITTING OTHER MELEE!

Obviously they are not chasing down archers for top scores.

Then why in the name of chadz' Left Hairy Nut are people bitching about range then if Melee Do More Damage. God-Mode does not mean doing the least damage and scoring the least kills.

Thank you for proving my point that melee already outperforms range, thank you, really, so just think about that point please.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gurnisson on August 23, 2012, 12:26:01 am
Well, Riddaren, I don't even mind cavalry. I think it's easy to be effective as one (lancer, mind you) by playing in a boring manner, however a person completely new to the game would be better of stacking strength with a long polearm/two-hander than going archer/cavalry.

I just think most average or good players can easily match their scores at their best class as a lancer without having to do as much work. It's just the nature of the class, and no, I don't think it's op. You pay upkeep for an advantage and that's the ability to choose your battles and flee from bad positions at any given time. Speed bonus is a double-edged sword so I won't necessarily say that one of the advantages is great damage, because it's very situational.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Silicium on August 23, 2012, 12:33:50 am
What does killing someone in melee have to do with archery being hard?
It has everything to do with archery, to escape for exampel, to end a round wen you know you can't just run and shoot wen you are the last one standing, the fact that you don't have any powerstrike or a low amount that is insignificant to deal enought damage each hit nor do you have wfp unless you are lvl 35.


Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: gazda on August 23, 2012, 12:40:12 am
add firearms and everything will balance itself out
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Silicium on August 23, 2012, 12:41:11 am
Not sure what your point does to my point. I'm saying melee combat is what truly sets this game apart to the extent that playing archery or cav feels like a waste to me, personally. I'm not talking about balance of archery.
You said that point and click is basic, while this is not the case in cRPG
No I don't, I can't be arsed to kite an archer for more than 20 seconds, so that's why I jump at them to close the gap they leave. Otherwise they will just keep on running. If the archer makes a mistake, it means that I get a very satisfying jumpkill, if he doesn't I die. I don't care, cause in these situations it's either keep following him and dodge, or turn around and get shot in the arse. I prefer the death or glory way out.
well why don't you try to out think them as like '' what would an archer do'' sure dosen't always work but that is better then jumping and dying afterwards.

I haven't whined about the strength archery in ages, only about the mechanics which can be fixed so easily, but retards keep on retarding.
I wasen't speaking of strenght that archers have but you complaining about archers as a whole, you main problem is that archers just runs awey, believe me if it was that easy i would just stand and fight each time, but it esen't. and being an hybrid archers esen't for me because you are limited to certain bows and you won't by able to headshot someone from a far as the longbow and the rusbow do.
Nice, take a stab at me, thats the way to discuss something.
Quote
but retards keep on retarding.
I guess so
It does apply to other classes, when you are bored of kiting or get dehorsed. The time that you spent shooting and kiting or on a horse, are not as enjoyable to me as being an infantryman on the floor. Again, opinion.
wen ever i i'm bored of kiting like you said, either i stand and fight knowing i will lose because i don't have the powerstrike or ill just go on one of ma alts.
Yep that was my opinion, this is yours. Still it is a fact that the melee combat system is what sets this game truly apart. Ofcourse archers and cav are a part of this, but that's not for me.
i fully agree, but like i said before i will just go on ma alts wen i do feel like doing some melee.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 01:24:34 am
Join siege, great fun. I go to battle occasionally and lose the mood after 30 minutes/an hour, there is just an abnormal number of cavalry and ranged. I have no problem with the classes themselves, I've tried them all and have at least 2-3 gens in every class. The fun is simply lacking, or most often ruined, with the current trend. Shortly put, anyway.

Fun should dictate balance. 8-)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: owens on August 23, 2012, 02:25:08 am
I think the issue lies in effective counters to archers being fairly weak. Sprinters are so weak that on my archer alt 60wpf nomad sabre I just kill them.

I created a character that i assumed would be excelent against archers 2PD 11ath. It wasnt. Instead it was really only anti ninja.


Anyway shields are not very good for melee 1H is better without it in truth. Hopliting gives poleamrs extra reach but makes them useless in melee so I dont bother only on native. I play polearm pretty well and i play archer terribly and personally i think it is a very weak class simply because wpf is so important. why? 120 should be sufficient like it is in melee.

I will go even further and say that buffing archery melee will make them stronger and cause more rage. Nothing is more embarrasing than a dedicated melee player getting railed by a flanged mace most archers are good at melee you need to be when you have low damage and reach. Cav is also very gay atm. I 2 hit a champion warhorse with an axe to the body so really it is the immersion being ruined by stunning more than the actual deaths.

Also I know personally that you guys arent so great like you make out Aus number 1 is better than NA number 1 so dont make out that you have mastered the game you havent. Hopefully we can promote a little more realism and team work on the battle feild and eliminate this cav scourge Instead of bragging and putting down. I play NW just for the teamwork I hope that cRPG can get to a stage on day where people actually work as a team to greater extent than bastard pikers stabbing you all the time.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ad1no on August 23, 2012, 02:44:15 am
aus1 is a server full of huge newbs... it's even worse then eu1 and thats bad!

na #1

NERF RANGED
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 02:47:10 am
aus1 is a server full of huge newbs... it's even worse then eu1 and thats bad!

Agreed.

Also, glaive is hard. Man, must be a challenge to be forced to play with full STR. :(
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ad1no on August 23, 2012, 02:49:59 am
Agreed.

Also, glaive is hard. Man, must be a challenge to be forced to play with full STR. :(

It's okay man you know they will nerf me again soon.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 02:52:30 am
What do you mean nerfed again? STR builds were nerfed, or are you referring to the change of armors causing less glances now?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: owens on August 23, 2012, 02:53:16 am
I wish AU was full.

Hasnt had any traffic since all those ranged nerfs!!!!! It is just melee melee melee. Super repetative especially for the few good players left Native is a better game.


If you cant deal with archers that take 1000arrows you are beyond help.

also my kd on NA with 250-300 ping is better than my kd on AUS.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 02:54:43 am
nvm
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 02:58:50 am
I went to AUS 1 once to spectate, midnight for me. Was nothing special, neither bad or good.

If you ever visit EU, let us know and we will crush you Asstralian insects like we crushed your mothers in bed before we shipped them to that arid pisshole island.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ad1no on August 23, 2012, 03:13:50 am
What do you mean nerfed again? STR builds were nerfed, or are you referring to the change of armors causing less glances now?

The biggest game changing factor for me was the spin nerf. I used a swiss halberd exclusively and that destroyed my game. Believe it or not I never picked up a glaive until that nerf. But the armor nerf obviously hurts and the WPF buff will nerf me again.

Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: owens on August 23, 2012, 05:00:15 am
Look ofcourse AU isn't anything special no one plays on it. Anyway everyone knows EU is the worst.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: v/onMega on August 23, 2012, 08:30:41 am
I went through all pages.

Most arguements are valid.
Archery is a pain since 2010.
Back then, I countered with a 27/27 2h build. Boy, it was fun to outmaneuver groups of archers and oneslashkill 4 or 5 of them.

It was demanding to select a good position on the battlefield.
The game got a lot slower, running around aint as fast, aware archers gain more time to shoot (thats why they got nerfed too damagewhise).

Melee requires concentration, positioning and skill, even more without a shield.
Triple A Game is needed to kill more then 2 or 3 guys. Regardless of the class (1h, 2h and pole), melee is awesome.

Cavalary requires all that too, but lets be honest, its easy to benefit from the poor awareness of ppl. till about the end of the first half of a round.

Cav against aware ppl. faces the same problems that every class has to face.
It becomes a dicegame.

Now archery. Archery requires a different positioning, you have to think even further....and opposite to cav, it is more a class of the second half of the round.

Why? Ppl.  have taken damage allready, are easier to kill, less cav...obviously ppl. in spec will see those archers doing good then and get the impression that archers are op.

I tried archery, the fact that many shots that I see as clear hits, dont register, keeps me away from it.

IMO every class deserves the right to top the scoreboard.
Its doable with every of them, you are just forced to play it right.

In terms of possible lameness and cowardly looking behaviour, archery by far offers the highest potential.

Thats why archers are feared at best, but will never get the status of a melee hero.

But hell, how could they, their class doesnt allow it :-)

Time to respec to archer....just for the lulz.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Radament on August 23, 2012, 01:41:16 pm
someone pls update the melee server !! it's a quiet place , and you can chat too without get shot in the meanwhile !!!
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: donib on August 23, 2012, 04:28:05 pm
one day ill make the ultimate build and ill the ranged people shall feel my maximum wrath
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 23, 2012, 04:35:59 pm
Quote
I tried archery, the fact that many shots that I see as clear hits, dont register, keeps me away from it.

+ fucking one.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tai Feng on August 23, 2012, 04:45:09 pm
People that were archers before did it despite not always getting a decent position on the scoreboard. Now we have dedicated archers as well as people who just want to score points while being able to survive easier over the whole course of a round. Longer you survive + longer you are able to put out damage = higher score. People naturally want to play classes that allow you to apply damage from distance with low risk but still good reward.

In current version of cRPG even the worst duelists get better score when they go pure melee instead of archery.

People switching to archers/xbows for higher score must be a joke. I have MW arbalest and MW bolts, and when I get mad at ranged score system I switch to pure melee with normal Miaodao, under 100wpf in 2H, 3 PS, and get higher score. With my melee skill.
Then I switch to STF shield+spear character (almost no armor - no gold for it) and get more points in one round than in four rounds as a crossbowman.


This cavalry/ranged/melee debate is as old as the game itself, and equally tedious, but as for scoring system the situation is pretty clear. Even when you see a ranged player in top5 (extremely rare) it's only because most of his points are from melee. And they would do much better if they were pure melee.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tor! on August 23, 2012, 04:53:26 pm
Ranged in general score little points. Not because they do not contribute, but because the score system is broken. Shoot a plated guy off his horse, with a headshot? Woohoo, 3 points! Fuck yeah. Reload for ages, headshot another arbalester. 2 Points. Wow, I just took out two big threats on the enemy team, and was awarded an amazing 5 points for it! Oneshot Paul last night on his ninja, another two points.

To sum up: Killed a heavy horseman, another arbalester, and a "big" threat melee hero, and earned 7 points.

Do not use the point system to measure the power of ranged. Please.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 23, 2012, 04:55:41 pm
Ranged in general score little points. Not because they do not contribute, but because the score system is broken. Shoot a plated guy off his horse, with a headshot? Woohoo, 3 points! Fuck yeah. Reload for ages, headshot another arbalester. 2 Points. Wow, I just took out two big threats on the enemy team, and was awarded an amazing 5 points for it! Oneshot Paul last night on his ninja, another two points.

To sum up: Killed a heavy horseman, another arbalester, and a "big" threat melee hero, and earned 7 points.

Do not use the point system to measure the power of ranged. Please.

Very true, it seems they get way less points.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 06:02:38 pm
Do not use the point system to measure the power of ranged. Please.

Alright, but using kills or even the released "damage dealt in a month" stats means range is still garbage compared to anything else.

People simply just don't like the feeling of "losing control" when shot, simple as that.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tor! on August 23, 2012, 06:49:50 pm
Alright, but using kills or even the released "damage dealt in a month" stats means range is still garbage compared to anything else.

I don't understand why it is like this. Playing as a ranged character I feel more capable of killing any kind of class with the exception of shielders than on my melee character. Shielders I can run from, or with enough time kill in melee. Not to mention how much less at risk I am the entire time. Ranged kill melee monsters, which are worth ten times the "statistic damage" they did.

If you give someone with half a brain an 18 / 21 build and mw bow / arrows, or 15 / 24 mw arbalest, they are bound to do well. I really do not understand how people can do bad with those kind of setups.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 23, 2012, 08:03:36 pm
I don't understand why it is like this. Playing as a ranged character I feel more capable of killing any kind of class with the exception of shielders than on my melee character. Shielders I can run from, or with enough time kill in melee. Not to mention how much less at risk I am the entire time. Ranged kill melee monsters, which are worth ten times the "statistic damage" they did.

If you give someone with half a brain an 18 / 21 build and mw bow / arrows, or 15 / 24 mw arbalest, they are bound to do well. I really do not understand how people can do bad with those kind of setups.

Probably the same way my 21/18 unloomed level 30 shielder has almost zero problems against any range whatsoever or the way my two-hander/polehero characters almost always make it to the enemy without being shot, using half a brain.

Everyone has natural "strengths" that they find easier.

Congratulations, you are a naturally great range character, most people aren't to save their lives under the current system hence why most range players have rubbish performance.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bjord on August 23, 2012, 08:09:49 pm
So, buff ranged because most archers suck?

And Tor is a decent archer, like any other skilled melee player trying the class, pretty much. It's easy to disrupt melee threats and eventually kill them. But archers are not the issue, the amount of them is.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: brianr1989 on August 23, 2012, 08:12:57 pm
Well Leonidas isn't wearing armour and still took 10+ arrows. He's obviously a slow ass str crutching my old friend.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Akynos on August 23, 2012, 09:04:47 pm
But archers are not the issue, the amount of them is.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tomas on August 28, 2012, 04:49:39 pm
Ranged is powerful because so long as there people alive on your team then you are automatically team playing no matter what.

2 melee players 30 yards apart can't do anything to help each other.
2 cav 30 yards apart can at least offer a threat to someone attacking one of them
2 archer 30 yards apart are already 100% team playing as anybody attacking one archer has to constantly look over their shoulder for the other archer.
1 archer and 1 anything else 30 yards apart isn't much different from 2 archers because the archer will kite until help can arrive.

The problem with this is that you cannot nerf teamplay and nerfing archer stats does not solve the problem and is unfair on the individual acrhers.

The answer (and this is coming from an archer) is to limit ammunition and then buff archers a bit so they can have some melee capability.  Make ammo 2 slots, make high tier bows 1 slot and low tier bows 0 slots.  If I only have 24 arrows max then I will either fire slower and make sure each shot counts or I will invest in melee, fire all my arrows and then get stuck in.  Either way it nerfs archer impact without nerfing archers
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Captain_Kirk on August 28, 2012, 11:44:46 pm
The problem with this is that you cannot nerf teamplay and nerfing archer stats does not solve the problem and is unfair on the individual acrhers.

Agree

Archery might aswell be removed from the game rather then getting nerfed.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 28, 2012, 11:58:44 pm
Best fun ever
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 29, 2012, 12:00:12 am
Ranged is powerful because so long as there people alive on your team then you are automatically team playing no matter what.

2 melee players 30 yards apart can't do anything to help each other.
2 cav 30 yards apart can at least offer a threat to someone attacking one of them
2 archer 30 yards apart are already 100% team playing as anybody attacking one archer has to constantly look over their shoulder for the other archer.
1 archer and 1 anything else 30 yards apart isn't much different from 2 archers because the archer will kite until help can arrive.

The problem with this is that you cannot nerf teamplay and nerfing archer stats does not solve the problem and is unfair on the individual acrhers.

The answer (and this is coming from an archer) is to limit ammunition and then buff archers a bit so they can have some melee capability.  Make ammo 2 slots, make high tier bows 1 slot and low tier bows 0 slots.  If I only have 24 arrows max then I will either fire slower and make sure each shot counts or I will invest in melee, fire all my arrows and then get stuck in.  Either way it nerfs archer impact without nerfing archers
buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127
Allthough it would kill the fun of playing one, its practicly the same as removing it.
Archery Is just not balanceable, i think.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: duurrr on August 29, 2012, 12:42:36 am
buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127
Allthough it would kill the fun of playing one, its practicly the same as removing it.
Archery Is just not balanceable, i think.
thats a fucking genius idea bro, lets just make the game a complete RNG, parry now has a chance to fail and arrows shall 1 shot everything if aimed with full reticule
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Piok on August 29, 2012, 09:08:02 am
Nerfing accuracy is good idea. Buffing already ridiculous damage of fully loomed archers is most  likely stupid.
Firstly there must be some kind of balance between loomed and not loomed archers. I think that bonus ammo on arrows or bolts is enough for loom so why to give additional damage.
To compensate accuracy nerf should be applied to crossbows to not become omnipotent snipe device. Force and magnet field on shields should be removed to decrease pressure on shieldless infantry, shielders should be valid target choice for ranged. With accuracy nerf ranged will be forced to go closer to aim on unprotected body part and risk a lot. To compensate for shielder crouching should be invented to increase body coverage on smaller shield and to increase teamplay value of shielders.

I also notice change in behavior of shielders with new scoring system. When I hit someone with my bardiche "friendly" shielder jumps in, often negating any chance to repeat attack on my target with chaotic movement. I know it is old tactic to "borrow" kill performed not only by shielders but now a days its like some kind of plague.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Paul on August 29, 2012, 09:36:22 am
Nerfing accuracy is good idea. Buffing already ridiculous damage of fully loomed archers is most  likely stupid.
Firstly there must be some kind of balance between loomed and not loomed archers. I think that bonus ammo on arrows or bolts is enough for loom so why to give additional damage.
To compensate accuracy nerf should be applied to crossbows to not become omnipotent snipe device. Force and magnet field on shields should be removed to decrease pressure on shieldless infantry, shielders should be valid target choice for ranged. With accuracy nerf ranged will be forced to go closer to aim on unprotected body part and risk a lot. To compensate for shielder crouching should be invented to increase body coverage on smaller shield and to increase teamplay value of shielders.

I also notice change in behavior of shielders with new scoring system. When I hit someone with my bardiche "friendly" shielder jumps in, often negating any chance to repeat attack on my target with chaotic movement. I know it is old tactic to "borrow" kill performed not only by shielders but now a days its like some kind of plague.

Nerf ranged and shielders, 2h/pole is fine.

Sincerely, a (Long?) Bardiche user
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 29, 2012, 09:43:12 am
In order to nerf archers, Arbalest needs back its old power. The reason I played arbalest for many generations is archers. I oneshotted quite some of them, especially the roofmonkeys. But now I need at least 2 shots per archer (or one headshot) which takes away the "sniper" element from the arbalest completely which is needed because of the long reload times. Once an archer becomes aware of you there are not many chances you can reload again, depending on map.
So buff my mw arbalest and my mw steel bolts and I will shoot archers again  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Paul on August 29, 2012, 09:48:16 am
If find arba way more powerful than the bow at the moment to be honest - both when playing ranged myself or when being at the receiving end.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 29, 2012, 10:05:44 am
If find arba way more powerful than the bow at the moment to be honest - both when playing ranged myself or when being at the receiving end.

If you compare 1 shot from arba to 1 shot from bow, yes. Reloading..? Bow wins. Mobility...? Bow wins. Upkeep...? Both are high.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Piok on August 29, 2012, 11:42:03 am
Nerf ranged and shielders, 2h/pole is fine.

Sincerely, a (Long?) Bardiche user
2H and poles are not fine.
2h cause of lolstab and too friendly animation which allows them not to bounce of on terrible aimed swings.
Pole arms cause longspers and pikes and lances. Lonspears and pikes should be buffed in speed but nerfed in terms of damage that way they will bounce of more often on point blank thrusts and become more uncontrollable in term of their unballance. Dirty trick like thrust through teammate will be much more difficult cause of speed. Heavy lance and lance speed should be buffed too cause their slowness is actually bonus. Thrust of HL and lance is too controllable (almost homing in case of HL) and damage bonus from horse speed is ridiculous comparing to light lance (not comparing 1h from horse cause their damage is from fairy tale about knight slaying dragon with his sword). Light lance should be more expansive its not so good on horse but is excellent foot weapon for its price.

Now crushtrought weaps. Everyone must agree thet 2H are better then poles. My dislike to them is almost same as to overbuffet archers. I like some heroes saying come to siege there are almost no archers. And for what? To be crushed to dead by them. If you are lucky you can block overhead if you are crushed trough block and still standing you are lucky otherwise you are dead.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: [ptx] on August 29, 2012, 11:45:56 am
(click to show/hide)
Gave me lulz. Well done.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Paul on August 29, 2012, 11:56:11 am
If you compare 1 shot from arba to 1 shot from bow, yes. Reloading..? Bow wins. Mobility...? Bow wins. Upkeep...? Both are high.

There is so much more between it. The ability to hold the closed reticule for a long time, the far better awareness due reloading, the higher shot speed...

I know, a skilled archer can compensate all that to a certain degree, even more when fully loomed. But the average player is more dangerous with an arba than with any bow.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on August 29, 2012, 11:58:38 am
There is so much more between it. The ability to hold the closed reticule for a long time, the far better awareness due reloading, the higher shot speed...

I know, a skilled archer can compensate all that to a certain degree, even more when fully loomed. But the average player is more dangerous with an arba than with any bow.

You are right with the reticule and the awareness. But you've forgotten the godlike archer ability of kiting which is impossible with arba.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Captain_Kirk on August 29, 2012, 03:22:53 pm
You are right with the reticule and the awareness. But you've forgotten the godlike archer ability of kiting which is impossible with arba.

But you can still be fairly capable in melee if you use an arba. Where as the archer has to spend all their points on archery to not be absolutely crap.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gurnisson on August 29, 2012, 03:29:57 pm
But you can still be fairly capable in melee if you use an arba. Where as the archer has to spend all their points on archery to not be absolutely crap.

Good joke. Just people wants to min-max and sacrifice the ability to do damage in melee to be able to kite better and have the bow be more powerful. Both 18/21 and 18/18 works as a hybrid and the mace is a great sidearm. I see why though, the ranged damage will be greater and there's no real downside to kiting. Crossbowmen can't really do it because they have to stand still to reload.

Anyway, I do think crossbowmen have their pros but that the archers are more decisive in a battle because they're able to land a lot more shots. A bad ranged player is more dangerous with an arbalest, a good one is far more dangerous with a rus/horn bow.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 29, 2012, 03:42:47 pm
A 18 21 Archer Hybrid Build will never be so effective like   a 15 24 Arbalester.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bjord on August 29, 2012, 03:58:16 pm
That's only because the power draw requirement for bows. Crossbows were designed to be usable by practically anyone. You need practice to use a bow.

At least, that's the realism argument.

The balance argument is that crossbows can not be reloaded while moving. Mobility, in a game like Warband, means everything. This is why archers will always be more effective, and more dynamic than crossbowers. A static target in battle is more likely to be eliminated than a constantly moving archer.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on August 29, 2012, 04:12:52 pm
My overall point with my earlier post is, that the melee combat in this game is what makes it truly unique and what has kept most of us playing all these years. I'm not saying that archery and cav don't require skill, that type of gameplay is just closer to what you can find in other games and that is not why I'm here.

what other game have such fine cavalry gameplay as MOUNT & BLADE ?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Molly on August 29, 2012, 04:19:07 pm
what other game have such fine cavalry gameplay as MOUNT & BLADE ?
By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on August 29, 2012, 04:32:08 pm
By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on August 29, 2012, 04:42:32 pm
By fine you mean driving around on a GoCart and couching people which requires exactly 0 skill?

Pretty much describes anyone using a loomed Arabian GoCart with lance....  :D
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Pejlaen on August 29, 2012, 06:05:21 pm
buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127
Allthough it would kill the fun of playing one, its practicly the same as removing it.
Archery Is just not balanceable, i think.

Rather make arrows have much lower impact on heavy armor/plate wearers, and buff accuracy or let it remain as it is.
It is to powerful imo to be able to take out tincans or heavy armored enemies as an archer the way it is now. Either work on the hitboxes so that it will take more skillful/lucky shooting to hit the weaker parts of the armor such as armpits, places where the plate overlaps and so on.
If you ask me as an archer, it would have been a pain have trained accuracy and then have it taken away for the element of lucky hardhitting shots instead.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gurnisson on August 29, 2012, 06:29:24 pm
buff damage nerf accuracy, archery is like a laser guided Weapon system anno 4127

Make it require no skill at all. How about no?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: BlackMilk on August 29, 2012, 06:41:04 pm
Pretty much describes anyone using a loomed Arabian GoCart with lance....  :D
Selling a +1 Arabian Warhorse cheap on the market btw :wink:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 29, 2012, 07:06:16 pm
What about a new  camera position for  decent first person aiming and no crosshair.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on August 29, 2012, 07:17:25 pm
What about a new  camera position for  decent first person aiming and no crosshair.
 

+1 would make archery interesting an not just a point an click fest....


Fuckin miss this mod  :D every class was fun to play
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joker86 on August 29, 2012, 07:54:27 pm
I am a lazy bastard, that's why I only copy the post I made somewhere else:



I think most people who are complaining about the inf vs. archer gameplay are not complaining about the "effectivity" of an archer (his damage, his accuracy, his rate of fire, whatever), they are complaining about two things:

a) kiting
b) the amount of archers

Any change which aims towards reducing the motivation of archers to run instead of fighting by improving their melee capabilities will not work, or will only be a sub-par quality solution.

Archers fight over distance, infantry fights in melee. Having archers to fight in melee almost as good as infantry would mean, that infantry would have to fight over range almost as good as archers (to keep things fair). As infantry doesn't fight over range at all, the only conclusion would be that archers should have the ranged effectivity of a stone throwing peasant. Because not fighting over range at all is almost as good as throwing stones as peasant. You get the point?

Don't try to merge two classes into one. Archers would be reduced to some infantry/archer hybrids, and the game would lose an entire class. Just keep it like in all those strategy games, like Warcraft. You have your human foot soldiers and the dwarven gunners. Just don't let the enemy Orcs get in melee range to your gunners, or they are gone. That's the balance of the game. It would be highly unfair if the melee fighter could be killed with good chances while approaching his target, and then, when he finally made it, his target has still good chances beating him in melee. I don't know about you guys, but when I play the sitting duck for a bunch of archers, but still, with some clever behaviour and a bit of luck manage to reach them, I want to be able to slaughter them. Everything else would be unbalanced.

Now to sum everything above up: archers engage over distance, that's why they should suck in melee. That's why it is okay if archers are afraid of fighting in melee.

"But how am I supposed to kill archers then as infantry?" people might ask. And it's a perfectly valid question, and we can imagine a lot of ideas from higher ATH for infantry to high item weight for bows and arrows, but to be honest, I think being faster than infantry is an important part of the archer role, so I wouldn't change this either.

I'd rather have people concentrate on following question: why should infantry always have to kill the archers?

In my eyes, the gamemode is the problem. In battle infantry DOES have to kill archers and cav, but can't unless the classes allow it, while infantry doesn't necessariliy have to "allow" archers and cav to kill them. That's where the frustration comes from. Both archers and cavalry are much more flexible in who they can engage and who they want to evade. Even if you lower their effectivity accordingly, they will always be the "acting", the "active" parts of a team, while infantry will always only remain the "reacting", the "passive" part. This is why many players complain about archers or cavalry, although both classes are not really OP. It's a "gameplay feeling" issue, not a balance issue. Point b) from above, the amount of archers, is only a reaction to point a). Change a), and b) will change as well.

If you change the goal of the game from killing everybody (which is a really plain goal) to something more interesting, like conquering the majority of all flags on the map or something like that, things would change. It would move infantry into the key role, as it is the best class for conquering and holding terrain. Archers and cavalry could only accomplish the objective of capturing a flag if the enemy infantry allows it (by not being at said flag). Which would turn infantry into the acting, the archers and cavalry into the reacting elements (it would be still fine for archers and cavalry, as they can still enjoy their higher flexibility). The two latter classes would become pure support classes, which they are supposed to be, while infantry would now truly become the main class to win battles. In (almost) any scenario possible, which contains conquering flags.

That's why I say you need to replace (yes, replace, not complement) battle mode with conquest mode. It would solve so many problems!
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 29, 2012, 08:13:41 pm
Make it require no skill at all. How about no?
i am so confused atm..

please explain how less accuracy makes it easier for them?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Gurnisson on August 29, 2012, 08:21:17 pm
i am so confused atm..

please explain how less accuracy makes it easier for them?

Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on August 29, 2012, 08:24:19 pm
Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
But, all archers are bad players going easy mode with bowz.  :rolleyes:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 29, 2012, 08:39:57 pm
Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
true shit  sir
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joker86 on August 29, 2012, 08:49:32 pm
It's not a balance issue, it's a meta-gameplay issue, and that's why no balancing actions like changing accuracy, damage, shot speed, rate of fire, archer running speed, equipment weight, taken slots, arrows per quiver, upkeep cost, upkeep chance, melee capabilities or changing any other combat value of archers will help.

You need to change the game so that infantry isn't forced any more to chase faster archers which can attack over distance.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 29, 2012, 09:02:43 pm
I've posted this probably five times now, but the way to lessen the amount of kiting archers is by making strength build archers viable.
There is currently no benefit to going high PD. There are only benefits to stacking agility after 6 PD. Under this system of course everyone is an agi kiting archer.
I've proposed ways to fix this, but fuck am I typing up paragraphs right now in this thread.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 29, 2012, 09:05:54 pm
lolibuild-STR archer here, lulz. 33 levels of silliness that at the time was reasonable (24/21), it actually made sense and was balanced, ah well.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 29, 2012, 11:11:18 pm
Archers dealing a lot of damage while having bad accuracy. Low skill ceiling, bad players being as effective as good players = bad for the game.
I see, yeah that does make sense.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Rebelyell on August 29, 2012, 11:22:13 pm
i have 10 IF now soo i am not dying from one lucky shot

I have 0IF now and I am dying from 1 lucky shot :(
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 30, 2012, 12:31:42 am
I've posted this probably five times now, but the way to lessen the amount of kiting archers is by making strength build archers viable.

The most stupid thing about the current archery system is, that archers actually can run while they draw their bows... and run with the drawn bows.

So slowing them down by tons that they are only able to WALK while shooting would prevent them from the most kiting.
But they still would have the ability to run away WITHOUT shooting. I think this is a way better solution than increasing bow and quiver weights.
It is even a more realistic way.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Akynos on August 30, 2012, 11:54:13 am
I think Sebastian has got the solution here.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: justme on August 30, 2012, 12:20:29 pm
more people on dtv and siege then on eu1
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Butan on August 30, 2012, 12:22:28 pm
Could be a good idea, they would have to seek melee protection and not kite endlessly (or less efficiently).
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 30, 2012, 01:30:30 pm
The most stupid thing about the current archery system is, that archers actually can run while they draw their bows... and run with the drawn bows.

So slowing them down by tons that they are only able to WALK while shooting would prevent them from the most kiting.
But they still would have the ability to run away WITHOUT shooting. I think this is a way better solution than increasing bow and quiver weights.
It is even a more realistic way.
Forlorn_Robin_Hood will die.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: kono yaro! on August 30, 2012, 01:53:17 pm
making archers better in melee is not the solution. nerfing kiting is
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 30, 2012, 02:23:16 pm
making archers better in melee is not the solution. nerfing kiting is
try reading
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 30, 2012, 05:57:32 pm
I like this one because there would not be any silly strafe-shooting duels, but I do think that it would not solve kiting since they would just run longer.

Of course they can run, but they would be completly useless by doing it, because they cant shoot without getting hit by the followers.
Even a 10ath archer cant be faster as his follower if the archer draws his bow(so he actually walks).

Believe me it works  :wink:
I implemented this mechanic months ago in my own mod and it works perfectly !
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on August 30, 2012, 07:05:15 pm
The most stupid thing about the current archery system is, that archers actually can run while they draw their bows... and run with the drawn bows.

So slowing them down by tons that they are only able to WALK while shooting would prevent them from the most kiting.
But they still would have the ability to run away WITHOUT shooting. I think this is a way better solution than increasing bow and quiver weights.
It is even a more realistic way.

^^^^^^
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Falka on August 30, 2012, 07:14:07 pm
it would not solve kiting since they would just run longer.
This.

Of course they can run, but they would be completly useless by doing it, because they cant shoot without getting hit by the followers.
Even a 10ath archer cant be faster as his follower if the archer draws his bow(so he actually walks).

Eh? I don't see how it can stop archers from kitting in the case when they are chased by infantry. They'll just run away long enough to shoot in peace.

I don't really care but still...
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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joker86 on August 30, 2012, 07:22:57 pm
Of course they can run, but they would be completly useless by doing it, because they cant shoot without getting hit by the followers.
Even a 10ath archer cant be faster as his follower if the archer draws his bow(so he actually walks).

Believe me it works  :wink:
I implemented this mechanic months ago in my own mod and it works perfectly !

Infantry chasing an archer is useless, too, because he can't attack anybody either. It will just degenerate to a patience game about when the infantry is going to give up.

I would still like to redirect the attention to my initial suggestion of changing the gamemode, so that chasing archers with infantry becomes obsolete anyway.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on August 30, 2012, 07:26:47 pm
DErpa derp derp derp...

PLz stop posting your annoying brain farts.....
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 30, 2012, 07:33:18 pm
Eh? I don't see how it can stop archers from kitting in the case when they are chased by infantry. They'll just run away long enough to shoot in peace.

Maybe.
But isnt it better that the archer is able to shot 1 arrow while fleeing instead of 10 like it is now?

The most anoying thing about the current kiting is the ability of archers to shot a huge amout of arrows while being chased by other players.
So with the suggested method the arrow-spam will be reduced a lot.

Kiting itself was a historical tactic...
and removing it completly would make archers completly useless.
So I'm against removing it, but making it way less effective with the walking-method.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Toodles on August 30, 2012, 08:38:32 pm
I'm sure it's been suggested, but what of making the flags spawn at a set time (say at 2:00 minutes remaining), forcing all remaining players to fight it out as men would - all classes serving their function : melee in the thick of it, ranged shooting from afar, cavalry taking out loners - ALL OF THIS without the colossal bore and waste of time that is kiting?

"No! The team with the most infantry would win!" one might say.

In this situation the shielder would win against the archer, the archer against the spearman, the spearman against the lancer, the lancer against the shielder - pretty much the same way it always goes, but WITHOUT THE ENDLESS RUNNING.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on August 30, 2012, 09:42:45 pm
Remove  the Rusbow from Hell the and game is fine.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 31, 2012, 08:02:18 pm
Remove  the Rusbow from Hell the and game is fine.

Removing content from a mod isn't a good idea.
I know that the balance between the rus bow and long bow isn't the best, especially the speed raiting.
But deleting the rus bow wont make the game better.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lizard_man on August 31, 2012, 08:16:49 pm
Starts the game
Goes to EU_1
Gets frustrated with the amount of archers and cav
Rage quits to EU_3
Can't duel because is frustrated
RAGE!
Quits the game...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 01, 2012, 11:43:15 am
Starts the game
Goes to EU_1
Gets frustrated with the amount of archers and cav
Rage quits to EU_3
Can't duel because is frustrated
RAGE!
Quits the game...

I feel you! Heres my thing

Starts the game
Goes to EU 1
Gets bump lanced (which is 200% gay) and catches 3 arrows at the same time - instant kill
Rage quits to EU4
Meets the forlorn delayers & robinhood and his army of agiwhoring runnermy old friends
RAGE!@
Smashes mouse and goes chainsmoking

 :lol: not even funny
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on September 01, 2012, 02:03:06 pm
Goes to EU1
Plays there for a while.
Then goes to EU2
Plays there for a while.
Quits to go take a break or cook dinner.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Leshma on September 01, 2012, 02:10:59 pm
Stopped playing cRPG
Playing Dark Souls
Fell of cliff with 150k souls and 30 humanity
Can't pick up the bloodstain
RAGE!

:lol:

Before Dark Souls it was like this:

Accidentally enter EU1
Quit EU1
Enter EU2
Play for few hours and have fun
Quit EU2
Enter DTV
If there is Patoson, play for an hour and have great fun
Quit the game while still being happy person

:D
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lizard_man on September 01, 2012, 02:14:31 pm
I think with this game, you really need to have a good start to be able to enjoy yourself to the fullest. For instance, joining the server and getting 12 kills on your first round is a huge boost to your fun. Joining the server and been lanced the second you spawn, RAGE! Next round you get shot to pieces, RAGE! As it is, it's rather hard to be able to enjoy yourself on EU_1. I try my best, but in the end it fills me with RAAAGGGGEEEEE!
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on September 01, 2012, 02:30:43 pm
Just play fuckin siege for god sake get with the program  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: sF_Guardian on September 01, 2012, 02:35:14 pm
My way of playin:

Joins EU_2 with main.
Quits after 3 rounds cuz of total boredom.
Joins EU_1 with Hoplite alt
Plays 3 rounds with a smile on his face
Leaves with a smile on his face to do other stuff.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on September 01, 2012, 02:39:12 pm
My way of playin:
Joins EU_1 with Hoplite alt

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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Berserkadin on September 01, 2012, 03:57:41 pm
I lag anytime someone spawns, siege is unplayable :(
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Rage_Guy on September 01, 2012, 08:13:42 pm
My gaming story:

Goes to EU1 - gets frustrated by archers and cav.
GTXS!
Buys ArmA 2:CO
Plays DayZ with Rage Gay.
Finds random tent full of rarest weapons, ammo and tools in the mod.
Goes through forest - gets shot by random fat nerd sitting in bushes 4th hour in the row who has a insane damage machine gun.
GTXS!
PUNCHES A WALL.
Starts crying because of pain.
Can't properly fight in kickboxing club because of pain in the hand.
Can't properly fap because of pain in the hand.
Starts crying.

The cycle repeats.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: DaveUKR on September 01, 2012, 09:50:50 pm
Even horses are tired of cavalry.
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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Thomek on September 01, 2012, 10:24:00 pm
Going EU1.

Press the wrong button and shouts in admintext
Getting Abooze responses
Get killed by archers
Get killed by cav
Write nerf thread in forums
Getting argued with by the cav-lobby and random trollers
Going EU1
Give a controversial Kick for delaying, everyone rages abooze!
Random disconnect
Going EU3
Gets beaten hard
Going EU1
Ban a leecher
Good night.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Pejlaen on September 01, 2012, 10:57:57 pm
Going EU1.

Press the wrong button and shouts in admintext
Getting Abooze responses
Get killed by archers
Get killed by cav
Write nerf thread in forums
Getting argued with by the cav-lobby and random trollers
Going EU1
Give a controversial Kick for delaying, everyone rages abooze!
Random disconnect
Going EU3
Gets beaten hard
Going EU1
Ban a leecher
Good night.

lol, shit you deserve better man haha
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bonze on September 01, 2012, 11:03:58 pm




Kiting itself was a historical tactic...


Ahh sureee ...and ahmadinedschad build no atomic bomb


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Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Bl0rk on September 04, 2012, 06:44:30 pm
How I ended up today, totally pissed off...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: BlackMilk on September 04, 2012, 07:10:17 pm
How I ended up today, totally pissed off...

(click to show/hide)

that's what you get for heavy kuyak+vaegir war mask+danish gs combo :wink:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Arrowblood on September 04, 2012, 07:39:41 pm
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Berserkadin on September 04, 2012, 09:30:02 pm
I think with this game, you really need to have a good start to be able to enjoy yourself to the fullest. For instance, joining the server and getting 12 kills on your first round is a huge boost to your fun. Joining the server and been lanced the second you spawn, RAGE! Next round you get shot to pieces, RAGE! As it is, it's rather hard to be able to enjoy yourself on EU_1. I try my best, but in the end it fills me with RAAAGGGGEEEEE!
Start out with siege, it is alot more fun then EU1/4. Good warm up, you get to have some really intense and close-up melees. Some epic defences and assaults too :)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: darmaster on September 07, 2012, 12:57:57 am
(click to show/hide)

then leave this forum NOW
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 07, 2012, 01:13:58 am
mostly like this

Starts the game
Plays some relaxing music
Goes to EU_1
Ctrl+shift+m
Plays for some time
Quits the game...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: wayyyyyne on September 07, 2012, 01:18:31 am
mostly like this

Starts the game
Plays some relaxing music
Goes to EU_1
couching some late spawners
lancing people currently engaged in melee from behind
abusing bump mechanics to the max
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Vicious666 on September 07, 2012, 01:55:50 am
np i will fight in the shadows
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: TurmoilTom on September 07, 2012, 06:25:36 am
np i will fight in the shadows

Little do you know the shade is caused by arrows blocking the sun...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: dodnet on September 07, 2012, 09:47:54 am
Joining EU1
Half my team is cav (GK)
My team loses  :rolleyes:
Repeat 3 rounds
Map change
Half the other team is cav (GK)
My team loses  :rolleyes:
Repeat 2 rounds
I pick up a pike long spear to stop the cav madness
I get oneshot through half the map by some random archer
RAGE :mad:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lannistark on September 09, 2012, 10:53:33 pm
Talking about EU1, recently noticed an increasingly big amount of Horse Archers dominating the tide of battle every round, to the point that the number of HA in your team is directly proportional to the chance of adding a multiplier to your grinder.

There already was a Vaegir (Kuyak) invasion, is it Khergits' turn now?
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Riddaren on September 09, 2012, 11:01:55 pm
(click to show/hide)

Play on smaller servers. EU_1 has always been like this and I don't think it will change.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Patoson on September 09, 2012, 11:18:20 pm
The only time I really enjoyed EU_1 was when the new 200 slots server was released, and that night it got full for hours.

Now it's just less than 80 players (40 vs 40...) with 50% archers and 25% cav.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Patoson on September 21, 2012, 01:00:51 pm
Would it be possible to set a limit for classes, like in some servers of Battlefield Bad Company 2, where a team couldn't have more than a certain number of snipers, for example?

For instance, there could be a limit for the number of archers and cavalry per team. I think it would be a good way of saving battle.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Akynos on September 22, 2012, 02:07:52 am
There is a constant politic debate whether cRPG represents freedom of class and gameplay choices, or if it should adapt to be the most enjoyable for everyone. In both cases, a sacrifice has to be made.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Horst_Kurmoottaja on October 13, 2012, 01:09:51 am
Many of these maps on eu1 nowadays:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Lichen on October 13, 2012, 01:57:49 am
Many of these maps on eu1 nowadays:

(click to show/hide)
LOL
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Juhanius on October 13, 2012, 11:24:09 am
Many of these maps on eu1 nowadays:

(click to show/hide)

 :lol: Maybe few too many of those maps, adventage goes for archers in this kind of terrain. Didnt like those broad plain type maps either thought...too much adventage for cavalery.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Kafein on October 13, 2012, 06:05:53 pm
that's what you get for heavy kuyak+vaegir war mask+danish war mask combo :wink:

Yep, karma is a bitch.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Tzar on October 13, 2012, 06:17:44 pm
Imho i think some of the best balanced all around maps are the ones that mix in urban town settings with slopes and tight corridors.

The village maps are either too biased when you compare spawn or the plain maps simply makes it too easy for x key heroes...
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Kirman on October 13, 2012, 11:25:02 pm
the plain maps simply makes it too easy for x key heroes...


Thats why i dont play on EU1 for a longtime. I prefer siege. Theres still lucky headshots by archers but at least not x key heroes. Well i see few cav sometimes it must be really hard to press x for them or the x key doesnt work on their keybord  :lol:
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: TurmoilTom on October 13, 2012, 11:26:58 pm
Yep, karma is a bitch.

http://forum.meleegaming.com/profile/?u=1235
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 13, 2012, 11:38:11 pm
http://forum.meleegaming.com/profile/?u=1235

dun' get it.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Xscizorx on October 14, 2012, 12:03:17 am
Interesting how this thread went from a joke about dying to range a lot in EU1 to "NERF RANGE BUFF 2H PLS"
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: IR_Kuoin on October 14, 2012, 12:13:11 am
Interesting how this thread went from a joke about dying to range a lot in EU1 to "NERF RANGE BUFF 2H PLS"

No, only nerf ranged.
Title: Re: EU1 These Days.
Post by: Shpritza on October 14, 2012, 12:18:44 am
Interesting how this thread went from a joke about dying to range a lot in EU1 to "NERF RANGE BUFF 2H PLS"

No, nerf whiners buff wooden stick and straw hat  :mrgreen: