Because the 1h overhead is quite fast.
If I chamber a stab and they move to the side, in the really short time it takes to complete my overhead, I cant keep up with the enemy moving to the side.
The turn rate slowdown was too drastic as its incredibly hard to keep an opponent centered in your screen when doing an overhead or stab.
Same goes for the stab, which the OP overlooked. Not only is it shorter so you can turn less, its also much faster so you get less time to turn. You can't surprise stab anyone, even when they are almost in front of you.
Gtx pls.
I don't really want to prove you wrong, I'm just saying that your continuedwhiningcritique at everything that doesn't start with G and end with reatsword is getting a bit old.
And im not denying what the op is saying, since the 1h stab naturally is more to the right. I just dont want to act like something completely overreacted is the truth.
And as i said, since there is the possibility im wrong, that we should test it. Instead of arguing.
And if im not trying to the defend the class i played on my main the entire time, who is then? Every possible trick in the book for the 2h got nerfed, or well the ones i know, which was quite alot.
1h complaining ?
Believe me, longspear user have it way harder than you.
1h complaining ?lolnowai, it is actually way easier now, or at least feels that way.
Believe me, longspear user have it way harder than you.
lolnowai, it is actually way easier now, or at least feels that way.
Why don't you just test it your self, why drag cmp into it? Do the test and post your findings.(click to show/hide)
You're right, rustyspoon.
But I must admit that I'm sick of turning and spinning in this game. Hopefully next Mount and Blade will have realistic combat, not this dancing bullshit everyone is abusing atm.
cmp the soo promised better wpf curvE?
no becouse combat is becoming boring and boring and slower at every patch. i play 1h since this mod got 20 ppl online, and never changed my class in what 2 years and half? 3? , now follow someone "agile" with 6+ athletics and make overhead is almost impossible, withouth considering strange things like, you do overhead, the target is there, you made the swing , but suddently you hit nothing and he hits you from flank, than he appear near your flank. there is a void of animation and comunications between client, target position and your swing.
Fraps is a bitch, takes waaay too much power.
Come play in eu1 and let me watch and learn from you ptx. I really feel like hitting the guy, but it just always goes "beyond". And he hits me just fine, ofc.Not this weekend, sorry :)
I did some testing with the longspear and found that turning into your swings (which you can still do with the turn speed change) no longer makes it so you hit the sweet spot.I tested it on some 1 that wasDunno, i can hit people facehugging me just fine, by starting the attack facing just to their side and then turning it into them, which i find easier to do now than before.
mid range and i glanced 8 out of 10 hits with spinning, but a straght stab hit 10 out of 10. So the sweet spots have somehow been changed so that straight hits, actualy hit most of the time which is good.
However a straight hit still glances 100% of the time when some 1 is face hugging you. The only way to hit people that were so close to you before was to spin and hit the sweet spot but because thats been
removed its now near impossible to hit people that face hug you. Which has in fact made 1v1's alot harder imo. But hey the games not balanced around 1v1s so i dont really mind, just my observations so far =)
Not this weekend, sorry :)
Dunno, i can hit people facehugging me just fine, by starting the attack facing just to their side and then turning it into them, which i find easier to do now than before.
I've thought a bit about turning issue and came to conclusion that we should blame cmp for current state of melee combat.
Before "early active attacks", hiltslashing wasn't easy to pull of like it's now. Thanks to that change, in situation when I'm standing at enemies side, if he swing aiming at my teammate I'll be the one to take the hit. While that is realistic and makes sense it add a lot of randomness to melee combat.
Attacks being active so early in the animation is the reason why combat shifted from proper timing (both attacks and blocks) to what I call dancing which is nothing more than attempt to confsue the enemy, playing on lucky card that your hit will connect and deal damage. This style of fighting is something that abuse people who can't block held attacks very well.
While I like this slight turning nerf because it's realistic (although it's still possible to turn for 1080 degrees in less than a second) I think that you should first try to adjust your own invention, early active attacks in order to prevent cheesy way of fighting that's prevalent these days.
Your whole argument is invalid, because it's based on the assumption that the "early active attacks" change applies to enemies. It doesn't. It applies only to attacks on teammates and scenery.
I think so? Don't recall changing anything that could affect that.
What exactly are you talking about? Hitting enemies early in an animation?
Pretty sure you increased damage on hitting enemies early in an animation. Which makes killing people behind a lot easier and hilt slashs/castor swings a lot easier because there is less chance that you will glance.You can do massive damage immediately after the end of your chamber animation in native too (with the 1h left swing, both 2h sideswings, and the polearm right swing). That's just the way Warband is.
I made the 2hander longest, pole in the middle and 1h shortest for stab reach. Doesn't make too much of a difference though. On the second set, I rotated each one 45 degrees with a point of rotation of the center of the circle. Notice how the 1-hander has the shortest horizontal distance by a LARGE margin. That's why this hurts 1-handers more than anything else.
Maybe it was Urist's armor soak/reduce change?
Maybe it was Urist's armor soak/reduce change?The soak/reduce change made marginal (near-glance) hiltslashes more effective, but well executed ones hit for near full damage anyways. I honestly just think that people got better at hiltslashing. Nothing wrong with that, it adds more mind-games to fights.
The soak/reduce change made marginal (near-glance) hiltslashes more effective, but well executed ones hit for near full damage anyways. I honestly just think that people got better at hiltslashing. Nothing wrong with that, it adds more mind-games to fights.
If I get caught in a hiltslash, I don't see any more mind-games than having to block twice and then alt+f4'ing due to the growing brain tumor in my head that has occured during the duel and is now killing me in real life.So true.
I think the biggest problem in the community is how split it is, one side wants a sort of simulator (I would be on this side, I'm fine with taking a bit of freedom and stuff but hiltslashes and spinning just looks ridiculous to me and apparently to alot of other people.)
And then the other side which want some sort of Arcade version where archers/crossbows/throwers are twitch-based quake railgunners and where everyone is spinning like a top to score skills.
This game reminds me a bit of GunZ, if anyone ever played that. I played back when it was relatively new, everything was good and dandy, players used the game mechanics as they were meant to be used. Fast forward to about a year, everyone was now glitching animations to do fucked up BUTTERFLY 360 SHOTGUNTOYOURFACE jAHFSJASHF bullshit, I don't exactly want cRPG to turn into this (Even though both Native and cRPG turned like that to a certain degree already, spazfeinting comes to mind.)
So true.
Can we get a confirmation that turning speed limitation won't be affecting short weapons? It's kind of a big deal right now for 1h since one can quite easily sidestep out of possible turning cone during the (especially) overhead animation.
Not sure about what? I believe that cmp said somewhere that it's not really meant to affect short weapons, just wanted to make sure that it's still the idea.
I used to be able to twist my stabs into peoples sides with along espadaweapon, but now its like moving in water............ :/
If I get caught in a hiltslash, I don't see any more mind-games than having to block twice and then alt+f4'ing due to the growing brain tumor in my head that has occured during the duel and is now killing me in real life.Hiltslash is counterable with footwork and a left slash. The mind game begins with your opponent cancelling after he sees the correct counter. He can then fake the footwork for a hiltslash again, but then go for a chamber instead. You can see the chamber, and cancel for your own chamber (or footwork opposite the swing and block it).
hey saul come to duel. been looking for you since the change to test some adapting movesI only play native at the moment. I'd be willing to do some duel in there.
I don't exactly want cRPG to turn into this (Even though both Native and cRPG turned like that to a certain degree already, spazfeinting comes to mind.)
Yeah i agree with the OP, Melee is garbage now. rerolling archer
I only play native at the moment. I'd be willing to do some duel in there.
Hiltslash is counterable with footwork and a left slash. The mind game begins with your opponent cancelling after he sees the correct counter. He can then fake the footwork for a hiltslash again, but then go for a chamber instead. You can see the chamber, and cancel for your own chamber (or footwork opposite the swing and block it).
Even though inevitable, I think that could have been slowed down if the encouraged mindset wasn't 100% about competitive gameplay.Agreed, I blame the multiplier.
Where are these level 40 knight boss fights that spiced up the mod gone ?
I'd agree if chambers actually meant shit, unfortunately, unless your character is physically too slow in stats/weapon to block said chamber, any self respecting player (Which is almost fucking everyone because blocking is so easy and everyone's a master duelist) can and will easily block chambers, making your "mind games" total garbage and you're back to square one with a still-growing brain tumor.Sideswing chambers with the same footwork as a hiltslash are often unblockable. It's just sideswing chambers with any distance between the players that are nearly useless. This is true in native too, even with the faster speed - seeing somebody not block and hearing the very distinctive chamber sound is just too much of a telegraph for distant chambers to be very useful.
never really played native. be interesting to try some dueling there I bet
Native is solely footwork based rather than major skill/blocking basedBeing able to block in native duel is absolutely vital. If you miss a single block, you're often dead (sometimes two depending on how marginal the hits are). Blocking is also harder, so the skill ceiling is higher. A player can footwork all day, but if he can't block and he faces off against an opponent who can, then he's going to lose damn near every single fight.
Being able to block in native duel is absolutely vital. If you miss a single block, you're often dead (sometimes two depending on how marginal the hits are). Blocking is also harder, so the skill ceiling is higher.
Native battle is sadly almost all 1h based, since ranged is so powerful. It's a shame that shields don't require some sort of manual blocking. It would greatly increase the skill required to usefully contribute in native battle.
It maybe vital in some cases however nearly everybody takes a shield, 2H/polearm (except war spear) cant outspam the shielders, most high tier shields rarely break in fights as its always sword and board. Natiive combat is faster paced because people die quicker but its a lot less exciting, and youve got the nutters in clans like IG who have 5 hour training sessions.I can't stand native battle or siege servers. From the class/equipment system down to the weapon balance. On the other hand, I enjoy native (fastest speed, specifically) duel servers so much more than crpg duel servers. Still, both have a lot of room for improvement. I don't exactly like getting 1 shot in native 50% of the time, and I don't think anyone actually believes crpg battle/siege(especially the latter) is perfect.
Short OR light should no be effected, only long AND heavy.Just because a weapon is relatively light, doesn't mean it's balanced and thus easy to to control. Imo, all "long" weapons and all unbalanced weapons, should be affected.
Just because a weapon is long doesn't mean it's unbalanced and thus hard to control.That's why I added the quotes. But certainly unwieldiness is proportional to length in the case of weapons.
Yeah big weapons are really hard to control..... :lol: :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hfLZozBVpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=210s :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hfLZozBVpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=310sWhat exactly are your purporting that video shows?
Being able to block in native duel is absolutely vital. If you miss a single block, you're often dead (sometimes two depending on how marginal the hits are). Blocking is also harder, so the skill ceiling is higher. A player can footwork all day, but if he can't block and he faces off against an opponent who can, then he's going to lose damn near every single fight.
It's a shame that shields don't require some sort of manual blocking. It would greatly increase the skill required to usefully contribute in native battle.
I disagree, The only reason I ALWAYS use shield, is because the blocking system with a weapon in M&B is horse*hit, and unrealistic to boot.Realistic or not, the blocking system in Warband is quite mechanically sound (if maybe too simple). Blocks go exactly where you put them, and will always work if you do everything right - there's no random fuzz. Without manual blocking player skill would be far less important than it currently is. Warband is also the only game that's actually done a good job making blocking feel fairly natural.
Four-directional manual blocking is about 50% of the game experience :wink:
Shield vs shield combat right now is boring.
Guys. I challenge all of you to use a long dagger. Go on! Do it!
Daggers got nerfed more than any other weapon in the patch. 1h got hit harder than other weapons? True. Faster 1handers got hit harder? true. Shorter 1handers got hit harder? true.
Try using a dagger.
You'll thrust and you can't turn it more than 10 degrees MAX. People dodge out of the way of it effortlessly, and if you try to do a straight-ahead stab... you can't! it'll almost always glance! Now try chambering for your method of defense, Sure I can block myself with them, but my chamber overheads and thrusts WON'T hit the enemy. The attacks complete far before I can turn the 15 degrees into the enemy. I don't do that dumb turny bullshit everyone liked to do wqith long weapons, I always keep enemies in the center of my screen, and it got nerfed HARD. So hard I die to every random in battle because hitting the enemy is so hard so they just step to the side and keep side swinging.
I guess since nobody uses them nobody noticed and was vocal about it. I challenge you to go stab enemies with daggers.
This turn nerf shouldn't even apply to daggers, or 1h for that matter really.
If I'm gonna add a mechanic that differentiates between quick parries and blocks might as well do something like that for shields.
Turtle fights bore me to death.
If I'm gonna add a mechanic that differentiates between quick parries and blocks might as well do something like that for shields.
Turtle fights bore me to death.
It means you get less stun/shield damage if you raise the shield right before the weapon hits instead of turtling and waiting for the hit sound.sounds cute
It means you get less stun/shield damage if you raise the shield right before the weapon hits instead of turtling and waiting for the hit sound.
Not having too much difficulty with the steel pick, although I did cry a little bit on the inside after I kept missing all of my overhead chambers from stabs. I will be patient for the staff to fix this in a way they deem appropriate. I think the short 1h CUT weapons will find it much harder than their blunt/pierce counterparts.well yeah, steel pick is mostly side swings. It's the thrusting 1handers that got hit hard.
maybe I'm a little daft or missing the point, but how is that an improvement?
Sounds more like a nerf to turtlers out of spite rather than objectivity or realism or game improvement (Unless your idea of game improvement is getting battles over as quickly as possible at the expense of realism and a class in the game that already has a hard enough time as it is with the rail guns and guys swinging a 6 foot blade/12 foot pike, that somehow never have any lactic acid build up :rolleyes:),
Turtlers btw are shielders who are just more disciplined than your average shielder. your not supposed to constantly drop your shield arm once your engaged, thats just asking for trouble and not realistic - a real soldier would turtle as much as possible, we're talking about ones life here, not a larp session...?
About parrying, it'll have to be really good unless it'll make fighting multiple opponents much harder since you can't parry more than 1 person.
Well, I can't use overhead so I only have 1 truly viable swing against a competent opponent... Right swing is usable as a stab but is not reliable enough as a frontal assault attack. I can still do overheads sometimes, but it's not as reliable as before.nonon, adding that if you were to raise it jsut before the strike then you'd be stunned less to retalliate faster. not a nerf to regular shielding.
EDIT: What I mean is that you have to be really close for overheads, so slight movements on your opponent's part means a miss if you already released it.
About parrying, it'll have to be really good since it'll make fighting multiple opponents much harder since you can't parry more than 1 person if non-parried blocks are nerfed in any way. If I can't fight multiple opponents at all with shield, I might as well go 0 shield and get an extra point in PS or something since manually blocking is fine 1v1.
It's an improvement because it discourages an extremely boring style of fighting and rewards skill. Might not be super-realistic, but at least it wouldn't be silly-looking like spin stabs.
Also, you have to remember NOT EVERYONE thinks fighting a good shielder, or bieng one, is boring. I would be leery of changing this based on your ownclasspreferences.
Well, I would increase damage taken/stun when blocking and decrease damage taken/stun when parrying. To encourage shielders to learn parrying and to discourage turtle fights.
Well, that's what I did for spin stab and many other changes. Would be unfair not to do it here...
you ever played 1h+shield in your m&b life cmp? i not remember you being 1h
i just wanna ask you one thing, when you do this balancement at list get competent ppl, for balance, chose top player of various class and make tests
That isn't a bad idea, actually.(click to show/hide)
if you take only ppl who agree on what you think you will have many problems in your life, also release the name, what there is to bee afraid? or for become a tester we need agree on everything you do or be your friend?
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You're a bright guy, Vicious; I'm sure you'll figure it out.
You're right, rustyspoon.
But I must admit that I'm sick of turning and spinning in this game. Hopefully next Mount and Blade will have realistic combat, not this dancing bullshit everyone is abusing atm.
That isn't a bad idea, actually.(click to show/hide)
The dancing is what makes it fun. outdance your foe's!!!!!May I have the next dance, miss?
Wow cmp you really hate shield/1h wtf?? Acting arrogantly and constantly insulting them as "turtlers", and attempting to balance it out while you never even played the class.
...
me playng this char since 2 years and half 5-10h day ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but cmp won't nerf shielders. You're still be able to do the same as before, it's just that those shielders who are more active will have better chance against single oponent of other classes than those who like to turtle until their teammates come to rescue them. Also, in shielder vs shielder fights the one who attack more often will faster kill his defensive fellow shielder (compared to how it's now).
It's just making the less cheesy playstyle more rewarding. He did similar with other classes but because he couldn't buff them, he decided to nerf cheesy dancer playstyle.
Or I misunderstood what cmp said?
Well, I would increase damage taken/stun when blocking and decrease damage taken/stun when parrying. To encourage shielders to learn parrying and to discourage turtle fights.
Well, I said I would consider making turtling less effective than it's now. I didn't really elaborate on that because of the Vicious Armada showing up.
I'm just intrigued by what you mean here:
I hope I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but it sounds like in situations where you can't really parry opponents (2+ v 1), your shield would take more damage than it does now. All I really ask is that shield has the same effective performance against multiple foes as it does now if the change is ever implemented.
The parrying sounds interesting, but I am puzzled how it would be any better than fighting without shield at all if you can block somewhat decently. That's why I said that the parry would have to be good if it points to shield being better at 1v1 and worse in group fights. If shield is going to be fine in group fights, then I am all for it. Adding any additional stun to turtling would make the right swing nigh useless. I am also wondering how much one will be punished from failing to parry, since the heavy shields + high shield skill can easily take ~30 hits from a non shield breaker.
EDIT: What I mean to say is that turtles are the ones who have such heavy shields and high shield skill. Regular shielders with only 4-5 shield and non-huscarl might have their shield break much more when fighting more than 1 person, when it already doesn't take that many hits if you don't have much shield.
This is coming from an aggressive shielder. I learned a long time ago that turtling isn't even that good and only a few people can do it well. I just hope you can elaborate to clear any worries.
If I'm gonna add a mechanic that differentiates between quick parries and blocks might as well do something like that for shields.Having another way of parrying that has a little less advantages than chambering but is also less situational and difficult would be really cool. A third way to parry would add a lot of depth to the combat and raise the skill ceiling by a much needed amount.
Turtle fights bore me to death.
Doesn't even matter with the 2h stab anymore, since the lolstab got nerfed up the butt. I find my self constantly glancing with 2h stab now. Even with normal stabs, not just lolstab.yup
Wow this mod is turning to shit real fast.what Is the I don't fruhyrduydrgse
First, the removal of pole stagger. Then the ridiculous nerf to spin turn, and now talking about nerfing shields into the ground?
Pretty fucking clear what the devs of this mod want, a pure 2h population.
Why not just fucking remove all other weapons?
Wow this mod is turning to shit real fast.Wrong, they are clearly biased towards mounted crossbowmen.
First, the removal of pole stagger. Then the ridiculous nerf to spin turn, and now talking about nerfing shields into the ground?
Pretty fucking clear what the devs of this mod want, a pure 2h population.
Why not just fucking remove all other weapons?
Doesn't even matter with the 2h stab anymore, since the lolstab got nerfed up the butt. I find my self constantly glancing with 2h stab now. Even with normal stabs, not just lolstab.
with my 73 length 1h wep I really cant overhead anymore. At that range people are often 90 degrees away from where they were when I started, while after the change I cant seem to adjust swing more than 20-30 degrees. I miss overhead more than I land it now.
Left swing is now my only viable attack.
Well to be fair I think he already said he is looking to adjust it. I am just trying to provide some constructive feedback on how bad it is.
I know a thing or two about shielding since I have been playing it for 15 gens, with this short weapon. I am not a "turtler" either I have 4 shield skill and a 1 slot shield that gets destroyed in 5-10 hits. I play pretty aggressively and am usually around the top 5-10 on score charts. San who has posted a few times is even better and uses an even shorter weapon very effectively.
If cmp wants to fix "turtlers", his derogatory word for defensive shielders who don't attack much but carry a big 2 slot shield and have highish skill, I suggest instead of altering all kinds of mechanics he just directly cap shield skill at 5 and and reduce the HP/armor of some of the heaviest 2 slot shields, bring them down to 1 slot stats.
what Is the I don't fruhyrduydrgse
HOW DO YOU PEOPLE DEDUCE THESE THINGS?
If I get caught in a hiltslash, I don't see any more mind-games than having to block twice and then alt+f4'ing due to the growing brain tumor in my head that has occured during the duel and is now killing me in real life.
I think the biggest problem in the community is how split it is, one side wants a sort of simulator (I would be on this side, I'm fine with taking a bit of freedom and stuff but hiltslashes and spinning just looks ridiculous to me and apparently to alot of other people.)
And then the other side which want some sort of Arcade version where archers/crossbows/throwers are twitch-based quake railgunners and where everyone is spinning like a top to score skills.
This game reminds me a bit of GunZ, if anyone ever played that. I played back when it was relatively new, everything was good and dandy, players used the game mechanics as they were meant to be used. Fast forward to about a year, everyone was now glitching animations to do fucked up BUTTERFLY 360 SHOTGUNTOYOURFACE jAHFSJASHF bullshit, I don't exactly want cRPG to turn into this (Even though both Native and cRPG turned like that to a certain degree already, spazfeinting comes to mind.)
Man there should be 1h weapons that just swing left and right.... over hands are worthless.
This turn-speed nerf feels just terrible. In my opinion it ruined the game. And its not just me crying. I see good players missing their hits for no reason. They do everything right, but the game physics is not. Something went really wrong with this nerf, something must be done! Im gonna play as ranged until its fixed..
Please fix it, I loved the game and mod, but now it sucks...
Overheads are pretty broken currently. Overheads were always a risky move and now they're kinda pointless.
Also, jump spinning pikes did need to be fixed, 'cause that was pretty damn broken. But I think that this change went too far overall. It REALLY hurt hoplites (which were bad before) and thrusting poles. Why not put turn radius back to the way it was, and just nerf turn radius when jumping? That was the real problem anyway.
If they miss then that's surely not because they did everything right.
Unless you mean hits going right THROUGH people, in which case it has nothing to do with the turn-speed nerf.
For some reason, I have been more successful recently despite using a short weapon + strength build 1h. Maybe lots of people still can't get used to the change yet. I figure it makes 1 vs group fighting easier since opponents can't side swing with their long weapons and they can't follow me so easily with overheads with teammates in the way if they aren't skilled. I find stopping horses with a spear+shield harder at the moment.you doing better is the nerf to teamwork since overswings and thrusts are the best for teamwork. you're better at fighting multiple people!
I wouldn't say this is a really good thing since it means I'm just beating a bunch of cripples now. I think short 1h could still benefit in a few ways in this new system, although offensively, overhead is less reliable in many areas.
I personally find the adjusted sweetspots on stabs to be a major buff to teamwork, since stabbing people is a lot more reliable now, less glancing and random crap. Honestly, the turn speed ain't that slow that you can't stab a guy going between teammates :/But Overheads. Overheads. Sure, Pikes and such stabbing are fine since they are slow.