no block for everybody, just like shielders?+1
the 2h stab is quite hard too use properly.
it just lets you get a free hit since you can circle them as they're immobile. On my main I use a katanaSpeak for yourself. Ever compared the sidestepping and acceleration speed when using a katana and when using a greatsword?
Katana is an example of a short weapon, which is a target most likely for kicks. And if you have a greatsword, simply use it's length and keep your distance. It is based on your argument actually. Just go and play. Pay attention to avoid enemy kicks. It's not THAT hard to do.Not my point, he says that people kicking mostly grants him a free hit because he can move around. Which does not go for everyone, katana is simply one of the best weapons for high maneuverability and acceleration so he should not expect his ability to move around when someone kicks, to apply for everyone.
Not my point, he says that people kicking mostly grants him a free hit because he can move around. Which does not go for everyone, katana is simply one of the best weapons for high maneuverability and acceleration so he should not expect his ability to move around when someone kicks, to apply for everyone.
i dunno i'm pretty decent at kicking now, its really fucking easy and OP, anyone who is good at kicks will say its OP, stop trolling the thread saying its pro
OP vs noobs, sure. No offence mate, but dont you play on NA?
and how do you think duels with good players end?
Between well matched decent players, most duels end with one guy's hand slipping at an inorportune moment....or a bounce when from same exact positioning vs same armour, the last 10 times it was a solid hit...Nope, kicks or boredom.
EDIT: Not to mention random lags when too many players spawn at once on duel servers.
Maybe if the NA crowd was not a bunch of STR builds you would have the athletics to not get kicked so often like the EU crowd.
Food for thought.
You could post this, or you could read where I wrote this, above :D
Last but not least: Making kicks harder/more risky will only make duels even longer... Last i checked the community was complaining that they already took too long (and now you want to make it even harder to kill someone?).Maybe something else needs to change so we don't actually need a mechanic that disables blocking for a short time to end duels.
Maybe something else needs to change so we don't actually need a mechanic that disables blocking for a short time to end duels.
up combat speed 2012
Maybe something else needs to change so we don't actually need a mechanic that disables blocking for a short time to end duels.Mallet? That's what I use when they don't stop blocking.
shields are already too strong imho.
Shields are terrible for fighting anyone decent in 1v1. You already have a short weapon but what a shield does is 1) make it obvious when you're blocking and attacking 2) increase the kick hitbox, so you're easier to kick, which is already the worst enemy of any 1her
Shields are terrible for fighting anyone decent in 1v1. You already have a short weapon but what a shield does is 1) make it obvious when you're blocking and attacking 2) increase the kick hitbox, so you're easier to kick, which is already the worst enemy of any 1her
And it is a lie that shielders can not kick. If the shielder does know what he's doing he can still utilize the kick in the right situation. Sometimes it is even possible to block with the shield when you're kicking.
*edit: i also block half the attacks after being kickedMaybe that's because your enemy is a noob or trying use long maul with 1 wpf in poles or somethin :D
You call shielders autoblock and blocknubs, while we are the dudes running after the 2h/poelarm packpeddal spammer, those who secure themselves in weapon reach and over all slow combat mechanics so they just block everything.
I try to block it but I'm already hit due to ping difference...You said it yourself. It's ping difference, not game balance.
Manual blocking should be like shield blocking, you shouldn't be able to block when you kick.
And that makes perfect sense when you also think about the realism aspect of this subject? Imo manual blocking while kicking would be easier in RL than kicking and blocking with a shield. (I know this is GBD- subforum but just saying)
kickin is fine as it is, shielders have the advantedge they can eazymode block multiple enemys at a time, so ye they cant use kicking with a shield as efficiently bohoo
I think there's plenty of risk involved in a kick, you're stationary while you kick. The problem is that people can still block while they are 'stationary' in a kick pose. That's the real problem IMO. Manual blocking should be like shield blocking, you shouldn't be able to block when you kick.
a shielder in a one on one can always put his shield on his back if he thinks he will be in disadvantedge on the kick issue..
a shielder in a one on one can always put his shield on his back if he thinks he will be in disadvantedge on the kick issue..so why do shielders use shields? is it because of arrows? is it because they aren't able or aren't interested to manual block? Is it the RPG element to be a shielder? Any of these questions can be answered with yes in my opinion and are viable, so for me to not use a shield is not an option and will never be. I am a shielder ffs
denpends on your playstyle and what role you take in teamplayTrue and not only myself but many others have choosen to be a fulltime shielder.
strafing left or right can avoid only those where you also are out of reach of the kickslash already and not move closer to attack.
High athlethics does matter only in terms of timing not in terms of the effect. Someone Like Hearst who himself has a reasonable ath or just are able to tiem well like cicero don't have a problem at all with the opponets ath in terms of kickslashes.
@odinBut even though you are good in predicting my kickslashes ( I saw yesterday at duel server) , I still had like 50% succes rate and even 95% of the kickslashed that failed i just blocked your right or left swingand we continioud like before. It realy has an risk<reward situation .
on duel or on battle, those who mastered the kickslash wait till you are comming at them or are already engaged into the fight. When you see a slight rythem/pattern emerge or are able to extrapolate out of the sorroundings some rules like "he is now at the wall, he cant move to that site the chances are high to succeed with kick" or "he just made a left right feint once and now he did again he will most likely do it a third time therefor i know where he will be and where to kick" or "he has a dude on right which i have attacked before that one is cautious now not with open strike therefor he doesn't have an attack open therefor i can kick one of the dudes with not too much risk" or the simplest of them all " i am going backwards, the other dude is following me ..."
strafing left or right can avoid only those where you also are out of reach of the kickslash already and not move closer to attack.
High athlethics does matter only in terms of timing not in terms of the effect. Someone Like Hearst who himself has a reasonable ath or just are able to tiem well like cicero don't have a problem at all with the opponets ath in terms of kickslashes.
Well, last week or so I was trying to improve my manual blocking a bit on the duel server. I usualy do that by fighting without my shield.
My main weapon is a broad one handed battle axe.
So...
I have 2 choices:
1. Stay back to avoid being kicked and I have to block 2-3 times for every attack I can make (read: an attack with my enemy in my range) and I get kicked as soon as I get close enough to hit. (Backpeddling 2h/polearm).
2. Stay out of his reach and run in the opposite direction.
When doing option 1, it's VERY hard to prevent getting kicked while also avoiding being kickslashed or outranged. Players who (ab)use the reach of their weapon will just hit me, run back a bit as I try to hit them and hit me. If I chase too much, I get predictable and get kicked. If I don't, I just get killed eventually by missing blocks.
Option 2, well, you get the point.
So, if after reading this, you feel the urge to type L2P or something, please type out what you think I can do to improve instead or help me out a bit on the duelserver tonight (around 22:00 CET +1).
I personally think that kicking should not be a counter for shielders. We allready have mauls, axes and cavalry for that. Adding every other form of melee to the counter list would make shielders only (minorly) useful to protect against range (shields can be penetrated by bolts, you can be shot over/under/around the shield).
But even though you are good in predicting my kickslashes ( I saw yesterday at duel server) , I still had like 50% success rate and even 95% of the kickslashed that failed i just blocked your right or left swing and we continioud like before. It really has an risk<reward situation .So at the time someone has your profound ability :wink: to kickslash, he then has with every second of them a definite strike which hits the target. As a 2h you often kill me in 2 strickes as polearm in one as polestagger makes me immobile for even a little longer.
I personally think that kicking should not be a counter for shielders. We allready have mauls, axes and cavalry for that.
Well, last week or so I was trying to improve my manual blocking a bit on the duel server. I usualy do that by fighting without my shield.Use a longer weapon. Dueling a competent, fast opponent with a short 1h is an exercise in frustration (even if you have decent ath yourself). You can win, but you'll have to play pretty much perfectly - your opponent won't be nearly as taxed.
My main weapon is a broad one handed battle axe.
So...
I have 2 choices:
1. Stay back to avoid being kicked and I have to block 2-3 times for every attack I can make (read: an attack with my enemy in my range) and I get kicked as soon as I get close enough to hit. (Backpeddling 2h/polearm).
2. Stay out of his reach and run in the opposite direction.
When doing option 1, it's VERY hard to prevent getting kicked while also avoiding being kickslashed or outranged. Players who (ab)use the reach of their weapon will just hit me, run back a bit as I try to hit them and hit me. If I chase too much, I get predictable and get kicked. If I don't, I just get killed eventually by missing blocks.
Option 2, well, you get the point.
Welcome to 1h dueling :D
Use a longer weapon. Dueling a competent, fast opponent with a short 1h is an exercise in frustration (even if you have decent ath yourself). You can win, but you'll have to play pretty much perfectly - your opponent won't be nearly as taxed.
Try an ACS, NCS, KAS, or LEE (LEE is a fantastic dueling weapon).
I played 1H just long enough to have seen what is the impact of kicking.Exactly my thoughts.
First of all, I see you all consider kicking in duel.Where is battle gone? And siege? For me, shielder is not a 1vs1 class. It's a team-play class. You are at the front of the group, you push the enemy, you break his position, you take the spam of four enemies at the same time, and at the right moment, slash ! You decapitate your enemy with a fast left swing slash.
Kicks? ha. I have RARELY been kicked on battle or siege as a 1h. Why? way too dangerous. No one is willing to stay still to risk a kick in a melee. Heck, not even in melee, even in 1vs1 battle, only the top do that.
On duel, it's different. No multi, insta respawn, you take the risks. And no, kicking is not risk free. How many times have I missed a kick in duel, got circled and slashed? Not even talking about polestagger in some cases which meant 2 free hits in addition.
Sure, you can block as a 2h, but kicking is an offensive tool. It's like complaining that if you miss your hit, you should be stunned because '' the weight of your weapon is too high for you to chamber again, the enemy should be able to have a free hit''.
As for shielders who get kicked, well, you are at a disadvantage there, true. But you can take ranged head on, you can take the hits of three guys at a time, you have no chance of block misdirection. So what compensates for these three advantages? Short reach, increased weight and no block after kick.
Seems fair to me :)
Exactly my thoughts.
Besides let's do not forget if a shielder is concerned of getting kicked in duels, he may actually try to use the thrust attack before complaining here. Assuming you have a sword, or stablike weapon. In my opinion, axes, maces and picks make weak duelling weapons that they have short reach and no thrust attack already. So use them in crowded servers more often.
Welcome to 1h dueling :D
Kicks? ha. I have RARELY been kicked on battle or siege as a 1h. Why? way too dangerous. No one is willing to stay still to risk a kick in a melee. Heck, not even in melee, even in 1vs1 battle, only the top do that.
Have you ever tried stabbing someone with a 1h and get blocked? The blockstun is huge...
Even then someone with enough agi and a long polearm/2h will be able to attack 2-3 times per your attack quite often.
Military Cleaver is damaging, but it's also slow, short and has a big ass model that is easy to block.
p.s. fix the 1h stab instead, ty =)
Don't fix what ain't brokenyou could say it ain't broken, but i still wish it glanced a bit less when i don't really control it enough :D
Don't fix what ain't broken
Mostly because of stun (if you're using it without shield). If you don't want your one handed weapon stunned by greatswords, use Military Cleaver (best 1H weapon imho).Not in duels. One of the worse 1hs to use in a duel. Three attack directions, very short. No-go. Good in battle though.
1h stab glances pretty much every time unless you execute it nearly perfectly. It's ridiculous that I have to spin 1h as much as I have to spin 2h (or even more) for the stab to succeed, if the positioning isn't perfect. I thought short range would help with that, it doesn't.thats the complete opposite of what I'm experiencing at the moment. I'm using a MW Langes with 5 ps and I have yet to glance with a stab
thats the complete opposite of what I'm experiencing at the moment. I'm using a MW Langes with 5 ps and I have yet to glance with a stab
thats the complete opposite of what I'm experiencing at the moment. I'm using a MW Langes with 5 ps and I have yet to glance with a stab
The thing that annoys me is blocking range. Can't count how many times someone failed to kick me, and I try to hit their side or back and they just magically blocked it anyways. All that work avoiding and trying to punish to waste..
What I mentioned was that if you successfully dodge and go to the enemy's side/close to their back, they'll still block it, even though their character was seemingly standing still.
no block after kick.
You can kick and block which results in you holding your weapon up blocking a fuckmassive weapon, all that just standing on one foot
How bout if you counter kick while the guy is in a kick animation you knock him onto the floor like he got hit with a mace? lol Just joking, but that thar would be funny :D
as everyone who's played on NA duel in the past ~2 weeks will attest, lots of players have figured out that there is essentially no reason not to kick every time the opponent comes even kinda-sorta in range. unless you kick at a very bad time (someone circling you) or your opponent anticipates you're going to kick and stabs (and the downblock interrupt is very short), there's no reason not to kick, you basically trade half a second of immobility for a chance at a free hit. i think that kicking should be more risky - ie trying and missing should be penalized. in addition to this getting kicked is pretty annoying and the only way to really counter it is S key (ask badplayer how fun that is)
i don't know the risk should be increased, though - longer immobility if you miss, maybe, or a small window of no-blocks?
In light of folks not helping short armed shielders against this crappy dilemma.
Here is tip to make your shielder kicks more effective, and your shielder gameplay more aggressive. Nothing is sexier in crpg then an agressive man with protection ;)
Attack-kick-attack.
The initial attacks get your enemy blocking; they are less likely to change char position or direction quickly. Now you can easily guess their direction and lead them into your kick. Then hit them again so they know you mean business.
What enemies will do is block-kick-block. Because they are inferior beings, unwillingly to get their hands covered in livers on the front line.
p.s. Smoothrich! you are a filthy hippy. I use a long espada and thrusting when people kick is really not that effective, especially since I have to move all weird or s key in order to avoid getting hit in the first place, so I'm usually not in a good position to throw a thrust, especially when i cant just spin my character and make it connect.
Don't get mad at Smooth. He was only against it because I was lobbying for it.
Hopefully some more risk is put into kicking in the future. Or just redesign it completely.
Haha, not quite. I agree that removing blocking is good (as long as it gets turning back into it), which would just be a rebalancing to kicking instead of a nerf. Also, it puts shielders and non shielders on the same level. If you complain about not being able to face hug with impunity, well.. it's designed to counter that. And I bet you fast shielders get way more kills in people's faces spamming left and overhead (heh) swings then you do get killed by someone landing a kick. It's not like I haven't done a few gens of shielder myself and know how they play.as mattey said there needs to be a higher risk, for this special move, which renders anyone but someone on horseback utterly defenceless
Anyways like I said, it's gonna be changed soon enough so you can't block anymore, but you can pivot while you kick. Sounds like a good change to me, more risk and more skill involved. Kicking is a good move, and its definitely underused by the vast majority of players. The only real abuse of kick was when I saw people like Beeper and BigSandwich use war spears to proc sideswing polestaggers and combo polestagger/kickstun/thrusts to just tear people apart. Skillful, but kind of silly.
Smooth i have seen such ganksquads on EU too, kick, polestagger kick ... when you meet them you are done
Didn't yet notice that the polestagger is gone kinny? ;)nope, shit i am back about 10 days but nope didnt notice and refering i was more to my experiences before my latest absence.
nope, shit i am back about 10 days but nope didnt notice and refering i was more to my experiences before my latest absence.
So no polestagger at all anymore or only on some polearms and others not?
note to myself: read the latest change log
btw. earlier i was asking Smooth about if there is really something to be done about the kicks, i realise after reading again, that that question also could have been mistaken refering to the polestager which wasn't my intention. Still good news on the polestagger issue will.
The idea is there to rebalance kicks so you can no longer block, but can turn while kicking. Not sure if/when it will be implemented, but its been discussed by the devs. Not a bad change really, as long as turning isn't too good. I like kicking personally, use it sometimes myself but it feels cheap to pull off or get done to you unless you miss it. In which case, you can usually block! A bit dumb but still a very fun ability.Sounds like a plan, still i also worry like Mattey about the turning ability, if they make it as difficult like turning and then overheading someone with a onehand weapon ^^ it shouldn't be a problem. If there is an uncertainty factor included like the more you turn, the more unlikely you will be able to hit and also that when you turn into one direction and then switch the direction the uncertainty would increase with a few percentages. I don't know if messing with the timing of the kicks itself would be something beneficial there though. Smooth You said earlier i believe in this thread that after you figured out the timing it was all easy, but imagine if the timing would depend also on other factors which aren't that obivous at first i think people wouldn't use it then at all anymore which also i wouldn't like to see, as the efect of getting skillfully hit is also good for the man who got kicked :) somehow curing him from overconvidence ^^
Thinking about adding this:Yes!(click to show/hide)
Thinking about adding this:(click to show/hide)
Thinking about adding this:(click to show/hide)
Thinking about adding this:i do like the concept of chambering kicks, still it feels like missing the point of making it tougher to kick in the first place.(click to show/hide)
ehh maybe. right now you can supposedly beat kickers by thrusting if you can predict it!! but its pretty unreliable, so i doubt chambering kicks will be any more reliable.
It makes you able to punish predictable kicks no matter what weapon you wield. That is a big improvement.
About kicks and thrusts.
1) Currently it's way easy to use kicks. It took a couple of days for me (last year) to get used to them and kick pretty much everyone but then I've changed my build with more crossbow wpf and less melee wpf so kick didn't give me that big advantage (most of the kicks didn't give me enough time to land a hit with my low wpf and short weapon so my enemies blocked attacks) and I've stopped using them here and there. But still it's a fact that it's easy to get used to kicks.
2) Thrusts can counter kicks sometimes. It is true, but not all weapons have thrusts plus there is not a big window of time you can use a thrust. And this thrust stun... Hearst abuses kicks and thrust stun much more than everyone else. If he misses a kick and I make a thrust, it's more likely that he will block it and I will get hit by swing of his sword while being stunned, that's why I prefer to evade kicks and make side swings from behind. But this works 1/4 of the times and only because I have high athletics.
3) You already can't block while kicking in beta client so the issue is mostly solved.
Why is chamberkick a bad idea? And why is RNG better?The issue I have with chamberkicking (if it really is impossible to pull off reflexively), is that predicting kicks is only really an option in a duel setting, where you have time to learn the style of an opponent over the course of several fights. At least, that has been my experience with it.
The issue I have with chamberkicking (if it really is impossible to pull off reflexively), is that predicting kicks is only really an option in a duel setting, where you have time to learn the style of an opponent over the course of several fights. At least, that has been my experience with it.Well, if you predict wrong you'd still probably kick your opponent. Chamber kicking sounds like an awesome feature and I'd love for it to be added, also, seeing as I often jump over kicks in duels with people I've never battled against before I'd hardly say anticipating a kick is 100% impossible, just slightly hard.
Besides sometimes I get a kick landed on me even after my hit lands on them first.
Please figure this out.
The chamber kicks with kicks is kind of a bad idea. Make it so if you manual block during a kick you have a 50/50 chance of being knocked down.
It's not impossible to do it via reflex. It's just kinda hard in a fight. It needs a mix of reaction and anticipation, so it will allow to punish those who add a kick at the end of each attack sequence while an occational well timed kick stays dangerous. As it should be.
I already tested it with Tydeus and Kafein.
I've tested Urist's chamber kick. My feedback:
1) It works fine
2) Knockdown is pretty much long, you have time to think, even maulers will have time to attack
3) You get kicked no matter what, even if you chamber.
What I suggest:
1) Make it so that you don't get kicked when you chamber it
2) Make knockdown time significantly shorter
3) Make kick's reach a little bit bigger
What will get changed after patch:
1) You won't be able to block while kicking
2) Shielders will get a significant buff against twohanders/polearm users
3) Kick heroes will qq
Noone knows when the new client with the noblock kicks goes live...on what all does it depend?
Just to clarify, you're saying the person that presses kick when he registers the startup frames of the enemy player's kick, knocks the other player down? So the 2nd player who pressed the kick button benefits?Yes, Player A who kicks gets on the ground, Player B who chamberkicks gets kicked but still has enough time to attack Player A.
However, did you test if it works regardless if you hit the other player with the kick or not? Or is it more like a counter-throw press in a fighting game, where you wouldnt have to even hit the other player directly with the kick?If Player B misses the kick - he just gets kicked and Player A doesn't fall on the ground.
I'm a jerk who only ever uses big gay 2handed weapons and so I don't see why kicking is scary (P.S. I NEVER used the 1 slot 2 handed mace, and especially not for long periods of time)
Quote from: Silveredge on Today at 10:04:23 am
I'm a jerk who only ever uses big gay 2handed weapons and so I don't see why kicking is scary (P.S. I NEVER used the 1 slot 2 handed mace, and especially not for long periods of time)
i dunno kicking is pretty riskyvisitors can't see pics , please register or login
It's scary cause it means that a player with more reach than you can just fight you from outside your range and the only way to get close enough to hit the guy is to run forward at which point they just stop holding S and kick you. It's also scary cause it totally fucks over a lot of footwork options when dealing with kickers, also, the "cant block thrusts" thing is still a load of shit because you literally have to start thrusting BEFORE the kick even happens, so if they notice you are thrusting they just chamber your thrusts or laugh as your shitty 1h thrust glances or misses and then cut you in half.
Yey, make it unable to block when you kick... yey! even more fucked up duels that lasts for 5 minutes now...
If you are gonna fuck up the kick, speed up the game, this slowmo blockwars is already boring enough...
An easy way to counter someone who is just going to S-key until you walk into their kick: Dont W key into their fucking kick. If you just stand still, you will destroy their entire strategy. Mind blowing I know.
Yey, make it unable to block when you kick... yey! even more fucked up duels that lasts for 5 minutes now...
If you are gonna fuck up the kick, speed up the game, this slowmo blockwars is already boring enough...
An easy way to counter someone who is just going to S-key until you walk into their kick: Dont W key into their fucking kick. If you just stand still, you will destroy their entire strategy. Mind blowing I know.
with kick-chambers implemented, no other nerf to kicking is necessary.
Tell that to shielders who don't kick. No, kick is very low risk- very high reward for both pole and 2h, and need a nerf. There is virtually no downside for person who kick all the time.Chamber kicks are easy to pull off now, high risk in my opinion.
with kick-chambers implemented, no other nerf to kicking is necessary.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Doesn't work if you lack range advantage. I can only dodge kicks on a player-by-player basis, since certain players only kick when certain conditions are meant.
Lol Egan. As has been mentioned, just standing still isnt going to help. I use a Long Espada, thats 103 reach, but standing still and not advancing means ill never get to throw an attack. if i dont get close for my attacks then enemies have a tendency to jump backwards while swinging which results in me hitting air and them hitting me in the face, so even with 103 reach sword i need to get pretty close, but then ill get kicked. anyways itll be interesting when people cant block while kicking, then people wont spam it as much unless they are really confident... kicking will still be strong but at least it will have some risk.
Lol Matey, pretty sure a kick has less then 103 length. You can stay in range of your attack and out of range of their kick. And what I meant by standing still was that if they are just holding down S, they will just back peddle out of their range and the fight is at a standstill.
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Tell that to shielders who don't kick. No, kick is very low risk- very high reward for both pole and 2h, and need a nerf. There is virtually no downside for person who kick all the time.I really don't see the issue, when I played my 1h/shielder (right before I moved to my now shitty internet where I can't melee) I chamber kicked people trying to kick me more often than not. It is sooo easy to spot incoming kicks, also dat knockdown = <33333.
Sometimes I deliberately miss the kick to make the opponent attack, when they do I hit them with the instant-left swing (2hander)..
But don't tell anyone though, as this is my secret move.
the shielder still can't block shit while 2h/polearms dudes can