Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Remove the terrible wpf per PT and PD restriction for ranged, instead having accuracy, distance, speed, etc, start off much poorer and increase more drastically in relation to amount invested. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.
Shh, dont give chadz more ideas. I thought throwing had been nerfed from every single possible angle, but apparently I was wrong and my wallet hasn't been nerfed yet. It will be next probably. The changes I mentioned would be enough. This isn't a situation where removing a nerf in one place and putting one somewhere else will fix it. The problem is overnerfing. It has been nerfed in too many places.
Please please just remove the increased weapon proficiency requirement and bring back the stack increase with heirlooming. Throwing would still be underpowered but at least it would be playable again.
ups about throwing in new patch
war darts!
Great comic.
The sad thing about all the "balancing" that goes into cRPG is that it never balances the game. 2H/polearm tincans builds always top the Kill board partly because they are the only build that has never been nerfed.
Or am I wrong on this?
I can't think of one cRPG update that has only affected these builds.
I really thought the 14 wpf per PT was a cool system to help keep throwing damage in check. I also don't think this requirement is where balance problems lie at all. It seems to me that 6 jarids for 4 slots might be just a little low, considering you'd have to use a zero slot melee to get the 6 jarids.
I like the idea of dedicated throwers being dead. I know a few really skilled people that stopped playing battle altogether because of the range fest that took place before the throwing changes. It removes the enjoyment of melee, not because now melee is left unchecked(which it isn't, thanks to the longbow and fewer cav predators), but before they even get near their opponent they could get double body shot by ranged and die with a build that was meant to take hits. They're body shots, not headshots, it doesn't really take any skill at all to pull off a body shot.
If they are meant to take hits, why are they able to dish out so much damage? They shouldn't be unstoppable paragons of the battlefield, cheapshot may elect to post his other comic about this. If you are tired of being shot by arrows and being hit by javelins, grab a shield, or partner up with a 1H buddy.Sounds like you're questioning quite a few things, such as the effectiveness of the STR stat which allows people to get BOTH IF and PS, or the weight penalty only reducing roughly 30-40 wpf for full plate(wpf affects damage). I was merely pointing out that even with 10 IF and 80 armor, you could still get 2 shot by jarids with the old patch. I didn't state anything about PS. For all you know, I could have had 0 PS and converted all my skills to attributes so I could get extra athletics.
Why does everyone feel the need to be able to solo everyone else in the game?
chaz said they are working on them in throwing is dead post =]
I read. The best rebalance I could suggest would be lower the wpf requirement, increase the powerthrow skill needed, boost the accuracy a touch, and making heirlooming increase stack size by 1. Reasonable and minor changes that would be more then enough. I hope these are the changes that will be made.
Throwing isn't "easy". The horrible accuracy and limited ammo mean every shot has to count. I would argue that being a pure thrower is the most difficult playstyle in the game.Throwing before the recent changes, was definitely the easiest thing to do. Currently sure, I'll say it's much harder. As for the actual difficulty itself, in what sense? How long it would take a compltely new player to be able to hold a 1:1 ratio with pure throwing rather than a melee type? I'd argue it wouldn't take nearly as long as 2hand/Polearm would take.
You cant wear much armor at all, especially since the wpf requirement was increased, but you have to get in close to combat.Athletics melee builds can't take much armor either, not to mention they don't just get close to combat, they have to be IN combat.
You cant take a backup weapon to defend yourself with unlike other ranged classes because of the slot increase.Or you could take the hammer like every Longbow/Warbow/Heavy Xbow/Arbalest user. It's zero slots, throwers have no more right to complain here than any other ranged.
You now have to dedicate all your wpf to throwing so when you quickly run out, you cant just pick up a fallen weapon and defend yourself. You cant even put points into polearms and use the higher tier throwing weapons alternate melee mode effectively (if you could ever call any of those weapons effective at melee(no you couldn't)).Surly you can remove 14 wpf and one PT from your build to get 100+ WPF in a melee type. I know several people who would hybrid with zero proficiency in melee, before the patch, and they did just fine in melee(including myself). Sure they couldn't exactly spam people to death, but you're fast enough to fight without a hindrance otherwise.
You don't like dieing when two throwing spears hit you? Well I don't like being destroyed in two hits by a bec or a two hander, half a min into the game, when my throwing weapons have already run out and I'm unarmed and can't do anything. You could still be alive by paying attention. What am I supposed to do?If you're running out of ammunition 30 seconds into the round and don't have a melee weapon, you're either terrible because you whiffed 28+ throwing weapons, or you were dumb enough not to take the hammer, a zero slot item. Still be alive by paying attention? The exactly does that mean? Are you suggesting "paying attention" is all that is required to avoid a throwing weapon?
ummm no, most of that is iffy, you cant take a hammer or long dagger... u dont have the space for it, sure its 0 slots but you use all your slots for ur 2 lances, or 2 stacks of javs....Point taken, but this ONLY stands for dedicated heavy throwrs
go all wpf in throw? thats dumb, you can do that with bow np because you have like 40 arrows min, 60 arrows for lighter bows... when you throw you get 6 jav? 2 lances... 4 axes.... thats failCheap Shot was saying you HAVE to spend all your wpf in throwing, I gave two reasons why choosing to do so or to split your wpf, would both work.
you do run out of ammo super faste cuz unlike arrows and xbolts you cant pick up your missed weapons unless you have high ass wpf... which is noting going to happen since u need high pt to do avg damg,2 PT wouldn't force you to hit twice as many times, that's a statement that completely ignores game mechanics. 3 jarids compared to 5 or 6? 6 would mean a TWO PT REDUCTION caused your damage to be cut completely in half. Sounds like you're asking for the WPF restriction to be completely removed what many people think that's the best and most creative change to throwing that they did.
at 9pt it took me 3 jarids to kill a man.... if i get 7pt to get enough wpf then i bet it will take me 5-6.... thats still fail
throwing isnt all bad but it isnt good, or even ok, its pretty crappy
throwing 28 darts or daggers is lame.... who stacks up pt and all that jazz to throw wardarts... why are war darts better then lances or jaridsBetter in which sense? They're definitely more accurate. Depending on damage and accuracy, consistently more hits could mean higher average damage. But that doesn't mean they're better.
Throwing before the recent changes, was definitely the easiest thing to do. Currently sure, I'll say it's much harder. As for the actual difficulty itself, in what sense? How long it would take a compltely new player to be able to hold a 1:1 ratio with pure throwing rather than a melee type? I'd argue it wouldn't take nearly as long as 2hand/Polearm would take.No, as in the current combination of all the risks and downsides to being a thrower makes it a super difficult playstyle. It is easily the most difficult of the ranged playstyles at any rate, and the risk vs reward is no longer balanced. I retired recently to try and repair my build. Holding a 1:1 KD ratio as a dedicated thrower is much more difficult then 2hand/Polearm, you don't become effective until late 20's, and I have been throwing for a long time and am a very skilled thrower.
Athletics melee builds can't take much armor either, not to mention they don't just get close to combat, they have to be IN combat.
Or you could take the hammer like every Longbow/Warbow/Heavy Xbow/Arbalest user. It's zero slots, throwers have no more right to complain here than any other ranged.
Surly you can remove 14 wpf and one PT from your build to get 100+ WPF in a melee type. I know several people who would hybrid with zero proficiency in melee, before the patch, and they did just fine in melee(including myself). Sure they couldn't exactly spam people to death, but you're fast enough to fight without a hindrance otherwise.
If you're running out of ammunition 30 seconds into the round and don't have a melee weapon, you're either terrible because you whiffed 28+ throwing weapons, or you were dumb enough not to take the hammer, a zero slot item. Still be alive by paying attention? The exactly does that mean? Are you suggesting "paying attention" is all that is required to avoid a throwing weapon?
OMG WTF THEY NERFFED THROWING EVEN MORE! 4 WARDARTS PER STACK? OMG THERE IS NOTHING GOOD OR OK ABOUT THROWING!I'm with him on this. I remember checking the ammunition and slot usage of all the throwing weapons directly after the .223 patch. I guess the website wasn't updated for me to see it's only 4 darts per stack now.
To clarify, since you are fighting pretty hard and may not know what it is you're fighting against, I am talking about a dedicated thrower build because that is what I like to play and my ability to play one has been removed. Remove the severe wpf requirement, but increase the needed powerthrow for high tier, or all throwing weapons, improve accuracy and make heir looming increase stack size by one. This is very fair in my mind and would balance it so pure throwers would be possible once more, without turning the game into a giant chuck-a-thon again. It seems balanced, and it's really not much to ask so that a lot of players can enjoy playing the game again.
Great comic.2 hand got nerfed hard in the patches lately.
The sad thing about all the "balancing" that goes into cRPG is that it never balances the game. 2H/polearm tincans builds always top the Kill board partly because they are the only build that has never been nerfed.
Or am I wrong on this?
I can't think of one cRPG update that has only affected these builds.
There's a lot of misunderstanding going on here, especially if you think I'm trolling you or have it out for throwers. I agree completely that throwing is NOW, in all aspects, underpowered and IÂ’ve been agreeing that high tier throwing is underpowered since my first post. IÂ’m simply trying to ensure that it doesnÂ’t go back to how it was.
IÂ’ve never thought you should balance throwing damage by ammunition; it should be balanced for when you actually land a hit. No one benefits from throwing being so inaccurate that itÂ’s completely random. That only frustrates throwers and pisses people off that get hit, thinking that itÂ’s skill-less and random.
Also, it looks like your facts are wrong as well. If you only have 100 effective wpf, even if you have 9 PT, you’re only using 7 PT, as 14*7 = 98 wpf. If you have less than 84, you can’t pick up a PT6 weapon on the field because your effective PT is below 6. So all you need, with the current system (I hear from irc that the wpf per PT will be lowered a bit), is 84 effective PT and you can pick up all the throwing weapons you want. 30 weight seems pretty reasonable for a thrower, so 84+ 30, 114 doesn’t seem that unreasonable, especially when you can hit 116 with zero weapon master. Of course, whether or not 6 PT is enough is a different story, I’m sure for a “dedicated thrower” they’d want much more than that. 9 PT with 14 wpf requirement per PT is impossible with this system. I’ll yield that 14 is too high but that doesn’t mean I think the system should be removed. Any more than 10 PT should be useless, the same way more than 10 PS or PD should be useless. This is why I like the wpf system. It makes going over 10 PT extremely difficult.
As for your statement on the current life of a dedicated thrower, I agree completely with how you said it would go. That's what I was assuming would be the case. But things change when you bring even one throwing weapon that is 2 slots, you now have enough room for the hammer. It seems your statement no longer makes as much sense if throwing ammunition were changed making middle/high tier throwing weapons viable again. This is precisely why I’m arguing, so this doesn’t get overlooked because the only people posting on this subject are saying “buff buff buff” with no one giving any unbiased opinions (at least biased in favor of the opposition). It’s called representing what would be the unrepresented. Democracy if you will.
Tldr; read the whole fucking thing this time before you assholes assume I think throwing is balanced.
The dilemma for the devs as far as I can imagine is the following:
How can you make the Pure Thrower as a class viable, without making Secondary Throwers too powerful as well?
Also throwing imo suffers from poor internal balance/imagination/uniqueness of weapons.. They should perhaps have more extreme differences in projectile speed and accuracy etc..
On problem we had was shielders that had 8-12 heavy axes, devastating in close range against their main enemy 2h/polearms/Cav.. This was OP. Some pure throwers were also ridiculous since PT also adds accuracy (and projectile speed??) to projectiles requiring lower PT.
Throwing needed a nerf, bluntly put. But I like the "Pure Thrower" idea even though YOU as a class just took a weapon meant for backup and made it into a whole playstyle..
So I would love to see it become viable again, without everyone and his dog picking it up without serious investment of wpf.
I'd say keep the 2 slots to make hybrids harder, but increase stack size so a pure thrower can have a moderate amount of power.
On another note, I thought of a way to prevent OP shield/thrower hybrids. Just have accuracy severely reduced while a shield is out. I think this would make a lot of sense, since holding a heavy shield would arguably effect your balance and free movement, making your throws less accurate.
Ah yes, why not make 1h swords unusable with shield because even Jack Sparrow has no shield.
Really though the most hated hybrid thrower build seems to have been the Shielder/Thrower, and that would as I said before be balanced instantly by not making throwing possible with a shield out, straight away the person would have to open themselves up to any other missile weapon, and if rushed not be able to just bring up their shield instantly after a throw.
The nerfs that hit throwers were out of control and I really wonder what the reasoning behind them was. I dont think anything else has ever been nerfed as hard.
In short, if you add melee or athletics to your horse ranged character, it becomes a hybrid, which are just not that good these days.
If I were to rebalance throwing, I'd remove bonus to shields from spears/javelins/lances, so that axes become viable again, increase most stack sizes by 1 and increase damage by 10%.
Historically, throwing weapons had limited usage. Making an entire class around them and forcing it to be equivalent to the other artificial classes is what you are suggesting. Imo, this will slowly ruin the game until it is no longer recognizable as mount and blade, but instead as a goofy-ass reincarnation of mainstream sock-raper-schizo mmorpg.
I love the comics though :D
Historically speaking a durp a durpa video game, guy wearing samurai armor using medieval European weapons hurp hurp realism.
your suggestions might fix it for you... but honestly i would make another suggestion... when throwing was super popular it was a problem, definitely. but why was it so popular? because it was super easy to hybrid, thats why! so a possible fix would be... keep the wpf requirment, maybe even make it higher! but give throwers more ammo and more damage. there were never all that many dedicated throwers... it was just a ton of people who put a few points in power throw, 0 throw wpf, and hucked shit everywhere. if hybrid remains difficult, but dedicated becomes viable... you will see a few throwers out there... maybe not a ton, but the ones who really like that play style would be able to do so... they would be at a severe disadvantage in melee, but they could at least kill people at range...
Historically speaking a durp a durpa video game, guy wearing samurai armor using medieval European weapons hurp hurp realism.
Shockingly I'm in LLJKExplains so much.
It isn't fair or balanced that 10 powerstrike is so easily reachable, yet 10 powerthrow has been made impossible.
Historically, throwing weapons had limited usage. Making an entire class around them and forcing it to be equivalent to the other artificial classes is what you are suggesting. Imo, this will slowly ruin the game until it is no longer recognizable as mount and blade, but instead as a goofy-ass reincarnation of mainstream sock-raper-schizo mmorpg.
grenade launchers in Call of Duty (I play on occasion)
One requires skill, the other simply requires a love of penis.Don't be so hard on people with Power Strike Gorath. It isn't very nice.
One requires skill, the other simply requires a love of penis.
Historically speaking, throwing weapons have been used extensively well up until medieval ages."Extensively" is not the word I would use. They were common, but no army was built around it. Skirmish throwers were typically lower kind of troops that nobody took seriously. Some front line infantry carried thrown weapons, but the ammo was typically 1-2 projectiles. They were thrown into the enemy mass from short range just before the lines meet and that's it. No need to even aim them at a specific person.
"Extensively" is not the word I would use. They were common, but no army was built around it. Skirmish throwers were typically lower kind of troops that nobody took seriously. Some front line infantry carried thrown weapons, but the ammo was typically 1-2 projectiles. They were thrown into the enemy mass from short range just before the lines meet and that's it. No need to even aim them at a specific person.
Historically speaking, throwing weapons have been used extensively well up until medieval ages. A javelin for example could pierce heavy armour, you also gotta remember that historically speaking no one was going to survive a javelin to the abdomen, or a 2h sword would not be able to wield a sword over his head rapidly swinging it around (a.k.a feinting), He would lose balance and get killed, they were very much a weapon used for crushing through formations. This is a game and if you want to take throwing weapons down to reality, you'd have to bring bows, 2h weapons, polarms and horses to it too. Then whining would occur. Throwers worked, people whined cause they didnt have the foresight to put a couple of points into shield and then just ran around with 2h's, no shield and whined more because a class had taken advantage of their bad choice :P Sadly there are a lot of 2h's who are very skilled with their weapons, unrealistically swinging it round like a nun-chuck, who can't accept it when players wisely choose to take advantage of their lack of shield :D
Do you happen to be playing a "friendly archer"?
...but more people will take throwing weapons to hurl at the enemy before charging into the fray.
I can center you all I want, but most of the time my weapons fly wild not even going inside the reticule, but far to the side. I have 130 wpf in throwing too. :rolleyes:
You just suck ass then. Period.
*A point of note: I do have a semi-long logic based argument about this issue, alas I just don't have the time to spend more than a minute at my puter lately. I will commence cessation of trollish remarks when I get the chance and discuss the issue reasonably when I have the time. Until then, stop being a ranged fairy guzzling man juice from the jock strap of ru paul and be a damned man by learning to melee for christ's sake. Go shoot at people in a proper FPS and stop tainting the ONLY game with good melee combat with your pre-disposition for playing like a taint licker.
... for example a roman soldier on top of his armour, large shield and sword would carry two heavy javelins designed for breaking shields, often piercing the man behing. So I think its more than possible to take even 6 javelins on your back, with a small sidearm, though speed would be reduced but as throwers often have low agility we see that anyways.You boldfaced the wrong word. Should have been:
It's ironic that people like that are here saying "SORRY YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR 1 HIT KILL EASYMODE ANYMORE STOP WHINING". 10 powerstrike with 10 ironflesh melee is as easymode as it gets. Throw on some plate and watch as you cleave through a dozen people before anyone can take you down.10 PS is slow, as I am sure you know if you played 10 PT character. The point is, if you got your str that high, you will have 10 PS AND 10 PT instead of IF. Now you have a thrower and a sumo wrestler in one character. Also, regarding one shotting, there is a huge difference between one-shotting from range and one-shotting from melee - the latter first has to catch someone and then also takes a higher risk getting hit himself.
It was OP in certain combinations with other equipment but your average dedicated thrower playing for the character rather than some kind of advantage was almost always at a disadvantage.
10 PS is slow, as I am sure you know if you played 10 PT character. The point is, if you got your str that high, you will have 10 PS AND 10 PT instead of IF. Now you have a thrower and a sumo wrestler in one character. Also, regarding one shotting, there is a huge difference between one-shotting from range and one-shotting from melee - the latter first has to catch someone and then also takes a higher risk getting hit himself.
This thread isn't here to argue about realism.
You're right. However it is to argue about balance, which should be based on LOGIC.
for the rest of this thread, I will contradict myself and argue about realism... despite the fact that there were entire soldiers in history known as skirmishers that had an armaments based on what cheap shot is describing.
from your same source
"Alternatively, they could act as ammunition bearers or stretcher-bearers"
the following line. Wasn't always the case that skirmishers actually joined the melee.
the point of that part is that not all skirmishers carried a melee weapons. In regards to fighting, there were some soldiers who's role was only ranged.
skirmishers typically carried bows, javelins, slings, and sometimes carried light shields.
You can facepalm all you want, I have never ever ever read or heard about any primary troop in any historical battle being composed of douche's that lobbed shit and then kicked it on the sidelines doing nothing for the remainder of the battle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_(weapon)
it still wouldn't be a valid argument to not have dedicated throwing in c-rpg.
Not like there aren't enough runners from the archers that refuse to carry a melee weapon so we have to chase them for 3-5 minutes before the stupid MoF flags show up, if they're even included in the map.Nice hyperbole.
Nice hyperbole.
Many African tribes used the javelin as their main weapon.And this is how they conquered the world.
While we're at it we need to buff fist damage in order to be viable because dedicated boxers are severely underpowered atm.I have a dedicated boxer alt. He sucks. Probably because I can't heirloom my fist.
Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Reduce the wpf need per point from 14 to 12. Make wpf increase accuracy by a much larger amount. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1. Done.
Throwing should have more accuracy and ammo. Only increase power if you really don't want to increase accuracy or ammo by that much.
Dedicated throwers should be doing much more damage than hybrids- which means tweak or remove the wpf too low nerf.
Hybrid throwers shouldn't do that much damage, so hybrids can throw at mid-close range which helps give 1-2 less swings for the kill as well as all-around versatility.
You mean you could have guessed my clan by the fact that I'm so clear spoken and reasonable?
No, meaning that your facination and obsession with retarded gimmick playstyles requiring no skill and excessive love for cock in ass makes perfect sense now given your LLJK membership.
The fact that you missed where I said I believe getting rid of the silly wpf restriction as a charitable compromise to you throwers isn't all that surprising either. The point of the post was entirely about the illogical idea of throwers having alot of ammo, period. Running around with 12 throwing axes makes no logical sense whatsofuckingever. 3, sure. More than 3? Fuck no. Same with the rest of throwing weapons barring shuriken, darts and daggers.
This idea of balancing around your "dedicated" thrower by increasing the ammo count per stack is silly. Dedicated or not, the idea of carrying many throwing weapons with you while you're on the move makes no logical sense at all. They're bulky and cumbersome. I really don't give a fuck if in history there was some troop line of bundle of stickss chucking shit the whole time or not. That wasn't the point.
Simply put, again, get rid of the artificial wpf restrictions and call it a done. Throwing would be fine after that one tweak.
It also requires skill.
So the truth is, I've been right all along, and each post you make will agree with me a little more until you are calling for the exact game balancing changes I've suggested.
Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Reduce the wpf need per point from 14 to 12. Make wpf increase accuracy by a much larger amount. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.Damage - No, damage doesn't need to change in any way for throwing weapons. Pre-nerf damage was always rediculous and you can STILL 1-shot people not in plate with a throwing weapon easily enough. Headshots are pretty much guaranteed 1-shots with anything down to war darts. Damage is fine.
I abused it all through native play (Ask BkS or ATS from the pre-cRPG days) through the majority of cRPG (even appearing in the mythological thread way back when with my throwing spears). It requires as much skill as nade spamming: IE - can you look in the general direction of someone and click lmb really fast?
Throwing, skill? Unrelated words. That's why it was fun to abuse. One of the best in-game trololo'ing methods ever.
No I won't because you're still not reading.
Damage - No, damage doesn't need to change in any way for throwing weapons. Pre-nerf damage was always rediculous and you can STILL 1-shot people not in plate with a throwing weapon easily enough. Headshots are pretty much guaranteed 1-shots with anything down to war darts. Damage is fine.
WPF - Agreed, except get rid of the artificial limitation on wpf altogether. It makes no logical sense why I can't pick up a weapon I'm not trained in and use it like a retard (1 wpf).
Accuracy - God no. They're throwing weapons, not sniper rifles, bows or x-bows. Good at short range, shit anywhere else is the only logical accuracy.
Ammo (stacks or slots) - Already said how much I'm against this. You are not going to carry 12 throwing axes while you run around lobbing them. Or 16 javelins. It's just stupid. Like pulling a pike out your ass, or a flamberge from your pocket. Those got fixed to be more logical, throwing needs to be the same. Low ammo counts.
It requires as much skill as nade spamming: IE - can you look in the general direction of someone and click lmb really fast?While they are aware of you and avoiding your throws? While you have 8 of the heaver hitting (or less) ammo to succeed? While they are moving not directly at you waiting to be killed but at different angles? If you can get a hit on them you often still have to get another (or more) to bring them down. You are also usually very close to them to increase your chances as well. Many of the shots will miss a good player then they come over and skewer you for your failure (how it should be).
Throwing, skill? Unrelated words.
bitching about melee
Funny stuff. However a guy with 15 PS will be redonkulously slow, and easily defeated in a duel against a half-decent melee player with a more balanced build. Still, would be a funny lulz crushthrough build.
Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Remove the terrible wpf per PT and PD restriction for ranged, instead having accuracy, distance, speed, etc, start off much poorer and increase more drastically in relation to amount invested. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.
...
Why is your crosshair so wide on that crossbow? I have 0 wpf and mine is twice as tight as the throwing axe reticule pictured there. I'll go take and post screen caps in a bit. It'd probably be good to have images besides the ones I draw to support my arguments. It might help get things moving. Also, lets be careful. It's fine to make comparisons between ranged types, but this thread is for crying and whining about throwing weapons not crossbow! :twisted:
Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players. It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate. I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge.
The wpf requirement is too restrictive because a player who puts 10 points in it quickly realizes that they have to go naked even at level 31, and they are still wildly inaccurate at 140wpf.
There isn't enough accuracy even at 140 wpf to get head shots that aren't 100% luck (and dont deny it throwers, we all know it)
Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players. It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate. I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge.
How close is close? Cheapshot is right: the spread on throwing projectiles is so wide even at close range that it is only luck that gets you the headshot. I wouldn't really care about the accuracy that much if the stack of war darts (which I used to compliment jarids or spears) was not so low.I don't see throwing as a long or even medium range style. But also I don't use spears, jarids or javelins which have higher weapon speeds and are probably better for longer range. I usually only go for enemies within 6 meters or closer. Usually 3 meters or less. That close it isn't luck and if you miss you are usually slain quickly thereafter. I guess I like the 'showdown' aspect of playing that way. I don't really lob weaps in mass quantities or at farther ranges trying to score a hit/kill. The exception being on siege or if I'm using throwing knives or similar with a lot of ammo I will since I can afford to miss a lot. But even if I don't get a kill it causes damage and helps distract enemies or make them react to being hit while a teamate can exploit them while they are stunned.
Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players. It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate. I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge.
Alright, what are you wearing, baby? *wink*I wear the lightest clothes (various shirts/tunics of the 0.5 weight variety. Same with boots (wrapping or woolen hose). If I get hit by 1 arrow or any semi powerful melee hit I'm usually dead. That's fine with me. I usually use regular throwing axes.
Also what are you throwing, What is your str/agi split, and how much power throw do you have? It would be useful to get more info, because a lot of people like to say "lol stop whining, I'M good at it." and while I'm sure I believe you, sometimes they don't even play the class, they're just trolling.
Yeah I thought that might be the case. You are a hybrid and have next to no powerthrow, which would have been good to mention beforehand. Honestly I don't know why you bother with the two powerthrow at all because it doesn't make much difference until after PT6. I believe it's just hurting your accuracy with little damage benefit. Also, if you're willing to use throwing weapons in an agility hybrid build, with a lot of wpf, you should actually get something for the damage trade off. Weather you like it or not. It makes sense that your accuracy should be much higher then ours, but god damn your accuracy is no where what it should be for that amount of investment.I only have the minimum requirement pt for the weapons I want to use (axes mainly). When I get one more point in strength then I can go up to heavy throwing axes at 3 pt. I really don't even use any 1 handers so it's a more gimped build than necessary (I thought it'd be more fun running around with a dagger but don't often use it). So if you put all wpf points into throwing it should be even better for an agility based thrower build. Works for me. May not be a build for everyone though.
I've been wanting to check out agility builds, but I've gotten heavily into the swing of strength throwing. I'd like to make sure it doesn't remain ruined forever before I try anything else. Wont abandon ship and let strength throwing sink!thing of the past... just like 300wpf bowmen
Lichen, how good is your damage (especially when using darts, not axes). How many body shots do you need to kill someone in mail (44 armor)?I don't use darts or war darts but I tried war darts just to see on siege. I 2 (or maybe even 1 shotted) to the chest a guy in a studded leather coat. Don't know how that happened unless he was pre injured but he was fresh from the ramp and had no arrows sticking out of him so..... Also got a 1 shot headshot on a guy wearing a mail coif + sarranid guard armor. Also got a few more kills but there was too much chaos for me to see their condition or what they were wearing exactly. I tried against some heraldic mail guys and hit some of them 2 times but couldn't hit them a 3rd time to see. My impression is that against lower armored targets they are pretty effective but if I wanted to take down more highly armored foes I would get more PT and go with throwing spears or jarids etc. But I would personally only get as much PT as required for whatever weap(s) I wanted to use and make sure to get weaponmaster as high as possible as the 2 main priorities.
Because with my stats 5PT, 90WPF it seems to take 10 darts, 3 spears. Dart accuracy is ok yeah, though the spears is really crappy. Though then I've got some really tight groupings in my tests, twice even all spears directly into the same spot (you could only see one spear so accurate was I) ... something seems to be wonky here.
My wish list (although I abandoned having a throwing main after being in a strategios battle, I love playing with my pure throwing alts).
- Take away the stupid wpf requirement.
- I would like all throwing weapons over francisca to be 3 slot but have usefully large stack size: i.e. 12 jarids.
- I would like the wpf to reflect accuracy and running accuracy more.
- PT should increase damage, range, shot speed and lower the trajectory of the missile but have no other effect on accuracy.
- Heavy axes to be replaced by two handed axes (but I have not seen any in any mod yet): any budding animators?.
There's some good ideas in there. I hadn't even considered the possibility of some 3 slot throwing weapons with large stack size. There might be something to that.
I would want throwing lances to cost less slots maybe? 1 ammo per 2 slots, the weapon just shouts DON'T USE ME!A possibility is each throwing lance takes one slot (so 4 max). I do think there is a place for a super heavy hitting throwing weap but it needs to be done so that it's not commonplace and sufficient investment is required.
In native there are 3 types of choice. Cavalry, Archer and Infantry. There is not something like javelin thrower for rhodok, or jarid cavalry for Sarranid. They are included in the weaponry of Infantry and Cavalry as a side weapon. Mostly secondary weapon.
The way they should be.
The way they should be.
Then go back and play native then Gorath :PThe problem is we can. This mod is competing with other mods, including native. And since WFAS released, also WFAS.
The problem is we can. This mod is competing with other mods, including native. And since WFAS released, also WFAS.
Well I'm not gonna try and stop anyone :P CRPG seems to be doing better and better these days :DYeah since crpg uses a very similiar system to drugs, to make people addicted; it won't be at all. But in this case farewell to me, and a few people who are invulnerable to get addicted.
The throwing nerf was the best thing that happened all year. lolYes, for robocops cheap shot drew.
PT already influences shot speed and thus range alot.
whats whit having a 4 throwing spear stack but only 3 jardis-javelins?Well, all throwing weapons which have a quiver showing the ammo have been made to have only as much ammo as a full quiver shows. The jarids also have 4+ damage and +1 missile speed.
There already is a "behind-the-scenes" multiplier for throwing wpf, just like with crossbow skill.
and this was always the problem of powerthrow.
It adds:
projectile speed
projectile damage
unlocks higher damage weapons
I dunno if it also adds short time between throws..
At the same time wpf had minimum impact compared to powerthrow.
My suggestion was to do a behind the interface multiplier of throwing wpf, at the same time nerfing throwing weapon damage generally. Then you would be able to choose if you would be a high damage or high precision thrower by choosing an agi/wpf build or str/powerthrow build.
But not both..
p.s. cheap-shot i lurv yer drawrings :)
Yes! :P Constantly. And only since the last patch.
Edit -
I know I suck, but I hadn't read about the WPF/PT thing in your OP until just now. :P That is total bullshit - so all my PT over a certain amounted is totally wasted? Why would they kill-off high-end PT when so few of us were there and really not getting that far with it in terms of K:D? If they want to force melee and archers, why have throwing at all? Weird stuff. Guess I'll have to totally respec. :P
you've already made it so that Shields that SHOULDNT block, can block something 2ft away from the shield?
It has already been said over 9000 times that throwing is gonna get buffed next patch.
Bumping this thread in hopes of dev discussion or even an idea of what is currently being considered. I feel like I've been putting a lot in, and wasting my breath here. It's an odd business model to ask for donations but to also not care about player confidence in the projects development. Why is there even a game balance discussion forum if you don't actually use it for game balance discussion?
It has already been said over 9000 times that throwing is gonna get buffed next patch.
Yes this is about the size of it. /\/\/\
So lets discuss it. What changes will you be making? The only definite thing I've heard is that you're removing our best weapon from the game.
When you get into tier 4 shields, you'll aim above their head, about a foot above their head. And it'll still catch the arrow. Same with stuff like the metal buckler. It's a tiny thing. It really shouldn't be able to block the arrow that came at your head unless it moves.
Quite a few of these, like the plated shield have wider physics than they do graphics, or it's that they 'cover' more than the shield can.
Funny. I have 5 shield skill, and use the brown heater shield or elite cav shield and notice that I get shot all the time both above and below the damned thing. ManofWar has said the same, even Balb has mentioned this since the shield nerf along with many other shielders. With my archer and my xbowman I shoot people above and below their shields as well, even (especially) the buckler shields.ugh, go play native its the same there
Of course haven't used the plated shield so perhaps that one is broken, though I really wonder because the guys with heavy board shields are getting shot through/around their shields as well nowadays.
I haven't gotten anywhere as far as I know, so I'll just make my probably final list of suggested balances and hope for the best.
Suggested Changes To Throwing
- Increase stacks slightly, more for lower damage weapons.
- Have wpf effect accuracy more.
- Have heir-looming increase projectile speed.
- Remove the wpf limiter, or make powerthrow agility based if possible. (Discussion point)
- Have shields reduce accuracy moderately.
- Increase powerthrow requirement for higher tier weapons.
While making powerthrow agility based might sound crazy, if you can do it, it would actually cut down on the amount of spam, since the power strikers wouldn't be able to put points in power throw easily anymore. Ranged characters like x-bowers and archers would get more out of just sticking to their chosen invested weapons as well.
The only people who would take throwing would be agility based melee skirmishers, and pure throwers, which is how it really should be.
Agility based PT is a baaaad idea. I appreciate the thought, but you can create a 10 PT, 10 WM, 10 athletics pure thrower with that change. 190 wpf AND really high damage. They get close? Run for it.
I wouldn't mind the change, but it would make pure throwing too powerful.
The wpf requirement is such bullcrap considering that the class than needed it the most xbow did evade it.
You don't have to invest skillpoints so you don't have to have wpf logic !!!! :rolleyes:
This makes no sense whatsoever. How can you apply a malus when there is no skill to apply it to?
To people who complain about Devs not talking about it:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5372.msg99529.html#msg99529
Like Fasader said in the post, it's not final, but you can see it's being worked upon. Let's wait and see. :)
When is the goddamn item patch coming? I am tired of paying insane repairs for 4 axes which can be used to kill 1 person if you actually manage to hit all of them which is borderline impossible, unless you only use them in doorways or stairs (still the accuracy is laughable).
These things cost me as much repair as my main weapon with efficiency ratio of about 1(axes) to 10(any 2H/Polearm)
The only satisfaction I get is one in a million random headshot which is oh so epic and satisfying, but has no skill involved and is pure luck.
Oh and btw my throwing charracter is so assraped by the new changes, I have 8 PT on my thrower and 50wpf from previous patch... now whats wrong with that with the new patch...?
For a level 30 build 8 PT is really the max even if you're a pure thrower. 9 PT puts you at 3 athletics with no IF, shield, riding, or PS. 8 PT allows you to have more athletics, a shield, maybe some PS, and/or riding.
It was an addendum to what you were saying to inform people that may not have known that 7 PT is the norm with 8 PT as the absolute max.
I really just can't play with more than 6 PT on my dedicated thrower.
I've been trying but strength builds just don't work for my style of play, I need at least 6 athletics preferrably 7.
Sure higher power throw gives some advantages, but for me freedom of movement and the increased tactical options that brings far out weigh those.
Could push for 21/18, but that would leave me as a dedicated foot soldier (no enough skill points for Riding and HA) and athletics 6 is still not THAT fast.
The current wpf per powerthrow requirement is 13, not 14. I know we were told 14 by someone, but there is a lot of misinformation going around. Same with the lances. Some of the devs like to troll. I don't understand why since it probably makes their jobs harder when people are pming them yelling about lances and wpf. Oh well. 1*13.
Edit: took out my question after finding info about it in the RIP throwing thread. Posted question there.
Weird, then how come when I wear my 16,3 armor I can throw, but not pick up HeavyThrowing Axes from the ground?
Barbutte(3), Kuyak(13), Leather Boots(0,8), Mail Gauntlets (0,5)
(3 * 3) + 13 + 0,8 + (0,5 * 2) - 7,5=16,3
3 * 13=39
My WPF 47
47 * (1 - 0,008 * 16,3)=40,8712
A quick estimation way of doing it is to take helmet x3, hands x2, chest, and feet. Add those together, subtract 7, and that's how much WPF you lose. I round up to make everything easier and just to be safe. In your case that is (3*3)+(.5 *2)+13+1-7=17. So that leaves 47-17=30, which is 9 less than you require.
chadz' strict "no transparency" agenda.
You know how he refuses to make patch notes or inform people of how he edits game mechanics.
Good ideas Yumi!
Don't forget maybe a boost to accuracy upon looming too? Although what I'd like best would be a return to an increase of the number of weapons in a stack.