Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[EponiCo]

Let's recap throwing mechanics.

WPF increases damage ... but hardly anymore after you have 120.
PT increases damage (lineary) and accuracy for every point above difficulty.
See this pic:
Green - Knives, difficulty 1
Yellow - Wardarts, diff 2
Red - Spears, 5

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So in essence, before the patch, your only real requirement to raise was PT, which also caused the broken hybrids - full melee build, 10 PT tacked on and oneshotting players and shields alike with pinpoint accurate axes before switching to oneshot glaive spam. So WPF requirement is good, since it stops those it's-just-a-few-points-hybrids and forces throwers to invest in both skills (anyway, I have trouble believing in "pure" PT 10 throwers, because at level 30 you have had lots of skillpoints left). It isn't the case that it gets worse with every investment (i.e. you get penalties for raising a stat), rather you get punished by lowered PT when you forget to invest into WPF (as evidenced by not being able to pick things up ... you may call that artificial but it isn't more artificial than needing "powerthrow" to carry javelins in the first place). Ofc I might be wrong, I don't have the exact formulas.
So what this means is, dedicated throwers need now more balanced characters instead the pure str stack from before and I like it that way. The only issue is with shields, but this is balanced by shields taking 1 slot or 2 for the unbreakable ones, so it's a tradeoff anyway.

Anyway, for me, axes are nearly fine while javelins are just meh, so here's a few suggestions.
Make throwing weapons able to block while in throwing mode. The x button sometimes doesn't work.
Increase Javelin melee stats (I don't care about speed and it should stay below 96 but the damage is ridiculous should be like a spear), you need a slot for a melee weapon with them contrary to axes.
Increase Javelin accuracy.

[Cheap_Shot]

I recently retired my thrower to rebuild him after the patches because I was tired of the error messages, and only getting powerthrow 7 when I had gotten my skill up to 10 and put in the required amount of strength. Throwing weapons, especially the higher tier ones like spears and jarids, are useless until powerthrow 7, and only get effective at 8-9.

Someone from the development team can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe one of the changes was that powerthrow no longer increases accuracy but instead subtracts from it? There were a whole lot of changes and almost everything got effected really. Damage, speed, distance, accuracy, slots, stacks, ability to even pick em up. I didn't care for most of them, but it stands to reason that I wouldn't since I throw. As a whole though I think the nerfs went too far.

The wpf requirement is too restrictive because a player who puts 10 points in it quickly realizes that they have to go naked even at level 31, and they are still wildly inaccurate at 140wpf. There aren't many skill points left over either because you require 10 points in powerthrow (obviously), 4 points in weapon master, and 12 points have to be converted to stat points to get the required 30/12 split. This puts you at just enough wpf to reach the minimum requirement for 10PT with confusing unlisted factors dipping you under and presenting you with an error message. This isn't so much a problem for archers since agility is their game, but effectiveness in throwing is all about strength. Adding very high forced agility requirements to a completely strength based set of weapons has completely destroyed it. Not to mention that it gives an unfair advantage to melee strength characters who don't have any such annoying restrictions. They can go ahead and pump up the iron flesh and powerstrike, even past 10, without the same crippling limitation.

[Cheap_Shot]

Honestly just to sum up. I don't think wpf should be connected to powerthrow at all. I think wpf should be completely responsible for your accuracy, so that you'd pretty much need 100 to hit things, but any more after that is what decides how accurate you get, and dare I suggest, how fast you can throw? It's ridiculous that putting the most wpf I can into throwing, and no other weapons, is just barely enough for powerthrow 10. And at that point I'm still inaccurate as all hell, and I get a crazy error message every time I try to put on clothes. It has to change.

[EponiCo]

Yeah, I feel the same about spears but for me this is rather an issue of buffing them, instead of just making them useless without str and free str stack again. Because tbh with high str, all the throwing weapons got super effective (2 - 3 wardarts for killing mailed guy).
It's also an issue for horse throwers who have to raise agility who seem really really weak now - they were never very strong in the first place, but needing 3 spears to kill even a sumpter horse from point blanc is kind of silly when you can do that exactly 2 times each round with perfect skill AND luck and then have to raise your empty fists and wait until someone kills you.

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edit: There's two problems with the wpf accuracy thing, they'd need to change the hardcoded accuracy formula afaik and throwing into groups. If you just throw from 5m into a tight group you'll usually hit someone no matter how inaccurate you are. I'd rather see the horrible projectile speed and accuracy buffed so you can aim until hoping to luck out.

[Cheap_Shot]

I know that feeling all too well. I usually do my best to defend myself, but it feels like even though I'm a skilled player, after I get my two kills for the round I might as well throw up my unarmed dukes and just wait to get slaughtered. Certainly I feel like doing that anytime a shielder looks at me even if I have ammo left. There isn't enough accuracy even at 140 wpf to get head shots that aren't 100% luck (and dont deny it throwers, we all know it) There also isn't any throwing weapon that can take out a good shield anymore, not even the ones that say "bonus to shields" right on them. There's that trick move where you stand there and wait for the shielder to get right up against you and strike just as he swings but I can pull it off maybe 1 out of 30-40 times. It requires latent manifestations of psychic ability since you have to release your throw before they drop their shield. Throwing weapons fly pretty slow now.

As for the hardcoded thing, they changed almost everything related to throwing. They must have had to make some code changes when changing the way wpf worked with powerthrow, or powerthrows relation to accuracy. It would be nice to see some positive changes along the same lines, since sure you can almost reliably hit someone when aiming at a group, but the truth is you are just aiming at the group, and groups more often then not contain teammates too. I do my best to take careful aim and I usually veer down and fire into the ground if I think theres a risk of hitting my team, but throwing is slow and very inaccurate. Sometimes it's as simple as an enemy I throw at dieing before my spear makes it to them, and whoever is unfortunate enough to have been standing behind them gets killed.  I forgive and forget if I get teamhit by accident, but many aren't very forgiving. I've received my share of undeserved rage.

[Cheap_Shot]

Fun fact: A regular non-heirloomed crossbow with 0 wpf and no points in related skills has a tighter reticule then every throwing weapon there is with 130-140wpf.

Edit: WPF's relation to ranged could use a lot of work in general.

[Mala]

But the crossbow has a higher reach, and with 1 wpf most of your hits are luck shots.
You can use throwing weapons while running, yepp this are luck shots as well, try this with a crossbow.

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Most of the time i try to hurl my stuff at huge bulks of enemies. If it hit something, then it is mostly heavily wounded.

[Cheap_Shot]

I'd say it's the other way around. Most of my throwing kills feel like 50% luck, 100% for head shots. When I picked up a crossbow I felt like when I hit things it was because I was actually aiming at them and timing properly. Throwing has a great deal of...eh...randomness to it now.

Why is your crosshair so wide on that crossbow? I have 0 wpf and mine is twice as tight as the throwing axe reticule pictured there. I'll go take and post screen caps in a bit. It'd probably be good to have images besides the ones I draw to support my arguments. It might help get things moving. Also, lets be careful. It's fine to make comparisons between ranged types, but this thread is for crying and whining about throwing weapons not crossbow! 

[Mala]

...
Why is your crosshair so wide on that crossbow? I have 0 wpf and mine is twice as tight as the throwing axe reticule pictured there. I'll go take and post screen caps in a bit. It'd probably be good to have images besides the ones I draw to support my arguments. It might help get things moving. Also, lets be careful. It's fine to make comparisons between ranged types, but this thread is for crying and whining about throwing weapons not crossbow! 

I made this screen shots while i was running. If i stop, then it is a way more thighter.
My point was, with throwing weapons you can run and gun, with crossbows not so much.

[Lichen]

The wpf requirement is too restrictive because a player who puts 10 points in it quickly realizes that they have to go naked even at level 31, and they are still wildly inaccurate at 140wpf.


There isn't enough accuracy even at 140 wpf to get head shots that aren't 100% luck (and dont deny it throwers, we all know it)

Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players.  It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate.  I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge. 

[Vammo75]

Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players.  It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate.  I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge. 

How close is close? Cheapshot is right: the spread on throwing projectiles is so wide even at close range that it is only luck that gets you the headshot. I wouldn't really care about the accuracy that much if the stack of war darts (which I used to compliment jarids or spears) was not so low.


My thrower 132/8 throwing without using the mouse:

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My other thrower 148/4 (Jav-cav only started recently to test)

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Close of course is subjective though...

PS. I do care a lot that they nerfed stones - took some of the fun out of siege (two headshots = 1 dead archer)

[Lichen]

How close is close? Cheapshot is right: the spread on throwing projectiles is so wide even at close range that it is only luck that gets you the headshot. I wouldn't really care about the accuracy that much if the stack of war darts (which I used to compliment jarids or spears) was not so low.

I don't see throwing as a long or even medium range style. But also I don't use spears, jarids or javelins which have higher weapon speeds and are probably better for longer range. I usually only go for enemies within 6 meters or closer. Usually 3 meters or less. That close it isn't luck and if you miss you are usually slain quickly thereafter. I guess I like the 'showdown' aspect of playing that way. I don't really lob weaps in mass quantities or at farther ranges trying to score a hit/kill. The exception being on siege or if I'm using throwing knives or similar with a lot of ammo I will since I can afford to miss a lot.  But even if I don't get a kill it causes damage and helps distract enemies or make them react to being hit while a teamate can exploit them while they are stunned.

[Cheap_Shot]

Sorry man but I have 140wpf exactly and it's plenty accurate enough for me. I can get headshots very often when I try. You just have to be pretty close. I have no issue with the accuracy. Even when my wpf was quite a bit lower it was still very usable for me. If throwing was even more accurate there would be mass bitching by players.  It would be too deadly in the hands of the skilled. It's throwing after all which is not and should not be pinpoint/super accurate.  I don't want any ranged weapon that's super accurate even at the highest wpf levels because a skilled player will exploit that to the fullest and then the whiners will re-emerge.

Alright, what are you wearing, baby? *wink*

Also what are you throwing, What is your str/agi split, and how much power throw do you have? It would be useful to get more info, because a lot of people like to say "lol stop whining, I'M good at it." and while I'm sure I believe you, sometimes they don't even play the class, they're just trolling.

Since Vammo75 posted what his accuracy is like seemingly standing still while using some of the more accurate throwing weapons, I'll have to post shots of the higher tier throwing weapons in the same manner. For now enjoy this informative and factual graph.
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[Lichen]

Alright, what are you wearing, baby? *wink*

Also what are you throwing, What is your str/agi split, and how much power throw do you have? It would be useful to get more info, because a lot of people like to say "lol stop whining, I'M good at it." and while I'm sure I believe you, sometimes they don't even play the class, they're just trolling.

I wear the lightest clothes (various shirts/tunics of the 0.5 weight variety. Same with boots (wrapping or woolen hose). If I get hit by 1 arrow or any semi powerful melee hit I'm usually dead. That's fine with me. I usually use regular throwing axes.

Stats:

Attributes
Available points: 0
Strength    8    
Agility    27    
Weapon proficiency
Available points: 12
One Handed  134    
Two Handed  1       
Polearm          1    
Archery          1    
Crossbow      1    
Throwing          140    
Skills
Available points: 1
Iron Flesh      0    
Power Strike      1    
Shield              0    
Athletics              9    
Riding              0    
Horse Archery      0    
Power Draw      0    
Power Throw      2    
Weapon Master 9   

[Cheap_Shot]

Yeah I thought that might be the case. You are a hybrid and have next to no powerthrow, which would have been good to mention beforehand. Honestly I don't know why you bother with the two powerthrow at all because it doesn't make much difference until after PT6. I believe it's just hurting your accuracy with little damage benefit. Also, if you're willing to use throwing weapons in an agility hybrid build, with a lot of wpf, you should actually get something for the damage trade off. Weather you like it or not. It makes sense that your accuracy should be much higher then ours, but god damn your accuracy is no where what it should be for that amount of investment.