Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[Seawied]

Nice hyperbole.

Gorath IS a hyperbole.


Interpret that anyway you like 

[MouthnHoof]

Many African tribes used the javelin as their main weapon.

And this is how they conquered the world.

While we're at it we need to buff fist damage in order to be viable because dedicated boxers are severely underpowered atm.

I have a dedicated boxer alt. He sucks. Probably because I can't heirloom my fist.
Next retirement I'll try a dedicated mounted boxer.

[Ithrael]

I'm going to say that previously, around the time of the throwing nerf I was playing a two-hander. Oh how I used to rage at getting killed by those throwers, or on a cav char getting my horse one shotted by an axe. Yet, somehow, after they all disappeared I kind of missed the challenge they presented. They pissed me off to no end, but to say they were overpowered is pure noobery. Just because a playstyle may not be cool does not mean it should not be viable, and throwing looks awesome as a role. (Particularly throwing cav). They put a leash on cav and 2handers that simply has no equal in terms of close range stopping power which really was needed, because although the nerf mainly effected throwers, it also effected the balance of 2handers. (Let's be honest guys, it was too easy + too effective without throwers to occasionally gimp us as we cleaved through 5 pubbers at a time with our germans.) Throwing is cool. CRPG is not based upon realism and therefore it is not a valid argument for throwing to be disregarded as a pure troop choice. Arguing realism is redundant because - it could be used to argue almost any balance change whether it would improve the game or not. EG - Make tincan cavalry a basically unstoppable force on the battlefield, stop flimsily made long spears penetrating thick armour plating on cataphract horses and increase the damage of cav in line with their velocity. Nerf archer accuracy so that you cannot get hit at 100M + (An incredibly difficult feat with an old fashioned bow, all know I can't do it with the more modern makes!) Make tincans move at the speed of sludge and make throwing weapons from horseback shatter through shields + still kill an armoured target.

TL;DR - Using realism for a game not based on realism is ***cking stupid.

Throwing was originally implemented as a viable pure choice, just as much as archery, 2h and shield, and so it should in the future be balanced around that, not a hybrid - which is what players were complaining about in the first place. The current state it is in is just ridiculous and everyone, even those who hate throwing, can see that it was over the top. I've played many games as the role which is considered the "Least viable", but to make throwing "Not viable" was not a good move for anybody. Also, to all the folks who are still bent on hating throwing - learn to strafe.

Just reduce slots from everything except perhaps lances .. maybe spears, reduce wpf required slightly and done. That's it. We could ask for 1,000,000 things but that's unrealistic. Do that and many would be happier for it.

[hyena]

I really miss throwing, that was my build before just giving up with the new patch and making an archer.

It never struck me as that overpowered. Sure it could do tons of damage, but then again so could a sniper xbow. Difference is we only got a fraction of the shots and poorer range/accuracy.

But it was fun, and deeply satisfying. Now its just a big pile of arse.

[Cheap_Shot]

First off, I believe I remember saying what a joke realism arguments were in a video game discussion? They have no place in this thread. Gorath, you came back in saying it was time to make logic based arguments instead finally, yet it seemed to have devolved into 3-4 walls of text referencing history? Alright then. As Damug cited, it was a completely wasted effort because even in a realism argument dedicated throwers have a place in history. A rather cool one actually. I see you'd rather ignore that however.

Fine lets go back to logic. As I've said, I'm using the rest of the already in place game mechanics as my point of reference. Putting points in things = get better at those things. Logic. I am suggesting we make throwing fit into that formula. That is as simple as it gets and your resistance only proves that you are here just to be disagreeable. Funny when you say that me being LLJK "Explains a lot". You mean you could have guessed my clan by the fact that I'm so clear spoken and reasonable? I guess I should be nicer to you if that's true. It's rare that someone doesn't decide to spit on us because of our clan tags, regardless of how we play.

I will quote myself once more, because I have compromised a lot of ground in hopes of getting some well needed change.

Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Reduce the wpf need per point from 14 to 12. Make wpf increase accuracy by a much larger amount. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1. Done.

You could do other things if needed. Increase powerthrow req for some weapons. Give an accuracy nerf while holding a shield. Remove the throwing lances like you were considering (they are awful anyway). There are still some nerfs that were missed.  Despite all the nerfs that happened, I'm only asking for those few buffs now, even if you tack on the above nerfs with it. They are logical changes and there's no reason not to make them. There is plenty of option and room to add precautionary changes if you are worried about OP builds cropping up, or throwing spam fests. I would be more then willing to give you my time and discuss those possibilities with you. Could someone from the balance team open a dialogue? I have been trying.

Hyena, I like your avatar.

[San]

That is very much in line with my thoughts on the issue that I posted a few pages back.

A snippet of that post:

Throwing should have more accuracy and ammo. Only increase power if you really don't want to increase accuracy or ammo by that much.

Dedicated throwers should be doing much more damage than hybrids- which means tweak or remove the wpf too low nerf.

Hybrid throwers shouldn't do that much damage, so hybrids can throw at mid-close range which helps give 1-2 less swings for the kill as well as all-around versatility.

Therefore hybrids will still have a nice balance of less effective ranged and close combat, sacrificing a little of both for more versatility.

[Gorath]

You mean you could have guessed my clan by the fact that I'm so clear spoken and reasonable?

No, meaning that your facination and obsession with retarded gimmick playstyles requiring no skill and excessive love for cock in ass makes perfect sense now given your LLJK membership.

The fact that you missed where I said I believe getting rid of the silly wpf restriction as a charitable compromise to you throwers isn't all that surprising either.  The point of the post was entirely about the illogical idea of throwers having alot of ammo, period.  Running around with 12 throwing axes makes no logical sense whatsofuckingever.  3, sure.  More than 3?  Fuck no.  Same with the rest of throwing weapons barring shuriken, darts and daggers.

This idea of balancing around your "dedicated" thrower by increasing the ammo count per stack is silly.  Dedicated or not, the idea of carrying many throwing weapons with you while you're on the move makes no logical sense at all.  They're bulky and cumbersome.  I really don't give a fuck if in history there was some troop line of bundle of stickss chucking shit the whole time or not.  That wasn't the point.

Simply put, again, get rid of the artificial wpf restrictions and call it a done.  Throwing would be fine after that one tweak.

[Lichen]

^^ Throwing isn't a gimmick playstyle. It also requires skill. If an enemy is aware of you good luck hitting them. You might as well go find another target at that point unless you want to have a showdown that you are predisposed to lose more often than not (which I often do because I like a challenge anyway). You also have to lead targets to hit them taking into account your ping as well as the 'in game' speed of the weapon. So no..not 'skilless'. DIFFERENT skills and tactics needed than melee though.

And about the specific topic (rebalancing throwing). I'd be fine with increasing the powerthrow requirements for all weapons. For example make axes starting with the francesca start at 3pt requirement then go from there. Damages may or may not need to be adjusted to have a reasonable balance of effectiveness. This would make hybrids have to sacrifice more than they do (1 measly point in pt is nothing much to cry over and gets you quite effective weaps. I think there should be more of a 'price' to pay for hybridizing. I don't have any issue with the ammo counts how they are now. I've never used throwing lances so I can't comment if they are too few allowed or not.

One thing though is the weights on some of the weaps seem excessive. I don't see why little ninja stars or knives are so heavy. Sure there are more of them per stack but not enough to justify such weights IMO. Those should maybe be more agile friendly. Unless nobody wears any type of armor then maybe the weights are fine.

[Cheap_Shot]

No, meaning that your facination and obsession with retarded gimmick playstyles requiring no skill and excessive love for cock in ass makes perfect sense now given your LLJK membership.

The fact that you missed where I said I believe getting rid of the silly wpf restriction as a charitable compromise to you throwers isn't all that surprising either.  The point of the post was entirely about the illogical idea of throwers having alot of ammo, period.  Running around with 12 throwing axes makes no logical sense whatsofuckingever.  3, sure.  More than 3?  Fuck no.  Same with the rest of throwing weapons barring shuriken, darts and daggers.

This idea of balancing around your "dedicated" thrower by increasing the ammo count per stack is silly.  Dedicated or not, the idea of carrying many throwing weapons with you while you're on the move makes no logical sense at all.  They're bulky and cumbersome.  I really don't give a fuck if in history there was some troop line of bundle of stickss chucking shit the whole time or not.  That wasn't the point.

Simply put, again, get rid of the artificial wpf restrictions and call it a done.  Throwing would be fine after that one tweak.

So the truth is, I've been right all along, and each post you make will agree with me a little more until you are calling for the exact game balancing changes I've suggested. You will continue to inject COCK, and GAY, and bundle of sticks into each post several times to throw people off the scent and pretend you are making some kind of point or proving you are superior in some bigoted offensive way.

[Gorath]

It also requires skill.

I abused it all through native play (Ask BkS or ATS from the pre-cRPG days) through the majority of cRPG (even appearing in the mythological thread way back when with my throwing spears).  It requires as much skill as nade spamming:  IE - can you look in the general direction of someone and click lmb really fast?

Throwing, skill?  Unrelated words.  That's why it was fun to abuse.  One of the best in-game trololo'ing methods ever.

So the truth is, I've been right all along, and each post you make will agree with me a little more until you are calling for the exact game balancing changes I've suggested.

No I won't because you're still not reading.

  Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Reduce the wpf need per point from 14 to 12. Make wpf increase accuracy by a much larger amount. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.

Damage -  No, damage doesn't need to change in any way for throwing weapons.  Pre-nerf damage was always rediculous and you can STILL 1-shot people not in plate with a throwing weapon easily enough.  Headshots are pretty much guaranteed 1-shots with anything down to war darts.  Damage is fine.
WPF - Agreed, except get rid of the artificial limitation on wpf altogether.  It makes no logical sense why I can't pick up a weapon I'm not trained in and use it like a retard (1 wpf).
Accuracy - God no.  They're throwing weapons, not sniper rifles, bows or x-bows.  Good at short range, shit anywhere else is the only logical accuracy.
Ammo (stacks or slots) -  Already said how much I'm against this.  You are not going to carry 12 throwing axes while you run around lobbing them.  Or 16 javelins.  It's just stupid.  Like pulling a pike out your ass, or a flamberge from your pocket.  Those got fixed to be more logical, throwing needs to be the same.  Low ammo counts.

[Cheap_Shot]

I abused it all through native play (Ask BkS or ATS from the pre-cRPG days) through the majority of cRPG (even appearing in the mythological thread way back when with my throwing spears).  It requires as much skill as nade spamming:  IE - can you look in the general direction of someone and click lmb really fast?

Throwing, skill?  Unrelated words.  That's why it was fun to abuse.  One of the best in-game trololo'ing methods ever.

No I won't because you're still not reading.
Damage -  No, damage doesn't need to change in any way for throwing weapons.  Pre-nerf damage was always rediculous and you can STILL 1-shot people not in plate with a throwing weapon easily enough.  Headshots are pretty much guaranteed 1-shots with anything down to war darts.  Damage is fine.
WPF - Agreed, except get rid of the artificial limitation on wpf altogether.  It makes no logical sense why I can't pick up a weapon I'm not trained in and use it like a retard (1 wpf).
Accuracy - God no.  They're throwing weapons, not sniper rifles, bows or x-bows.  Good at short range, shit anywhere else is the only logical accuracy.
Ammo (stacks or slots) -  Already said how much I'm against this.  You are not going to carry 12 throwing axes while you run around lobbing them.  Or 16 javelins.  It's just stupid.  Like pulling a pike out your ass, or a flamberge from your pocket.  Those got fixed to be more logical, throwing needs to be the same.  Low ammo counts.

You have not even touched throwing in a long time have you. But by all means keep on embarrassing yourself while you shout bigoted insults and state your firm beliefs about things that your knowledge about is antique. It doesn't damage my standing any, and I hope to get my suggestions considered seriously while you continue going from thread to thread giving your "expert opinions" 

[Lichen]

It requires as much skill as nade spamming:  IE - can you look in the general direction of someone and click lmb really fast?

Throwing, skill?  Unrelated words. 

While they are aware of you and avoiding your throws? While you have 8 of the heaver hitting (or less) ammo to succeed? While they are moving not directly at you waiting to be killed but at different angles? If you can get a hit on them you often still have to get another (or more) to bring them down. You are also usually very close to them to increase your chances as well. Many of the shots will miss a good player then they come over and skewer you for your failure (how it should be).

[Cheap_Shot]

There does have to be a better way to do this then the wpf restriction method. I've been saying to just decrease the need from 14wpf per PT to 12, but I just found out that the skill limits were raised from 10 to 15. Now I can't say the wpf restriction is fair at all. Out of PD PT and PS, the only people who can take advantage of the higher caps are strength melee users who can just crank up the powerstrike. Archers being agility builds usually, should be able to get above 10 since they can afford the higher wpf, but I can't say that for certain. Throwing flat out can't go above 10. Period.

I'm altering my list of suggestions in light of this new information.

edit: in all honesty, 15 caps are ridiculous. 10 was fine, and 10PS strength melee builds can already 1 hit high medium armor. There wont be much use for the SUPER ADVANCED MELEE COMBAT SYSTEM that people keep touting as a reason to despise ranged. The thrilling back and forth combat is going to dry up once the 15 cap becomes common knowledge, and it just turns into who can sneak a single hit in and move on quickest.

[Gorath]

bitching about melee

Funny stuff.  However a guy with 15 PS will be redonkulously slow, and easily defeated in a duel against a half-decent melee player with a more balanced build.  Still, would be a funny lulz crushthrough build.

[Cheap_Shot]

Funny stuff.  However a guy with 15 PS will be redonkulously slow, and easily defeated in a duel against a half-decent melee player with a more balanced build.  Still, would be a funny lulz crushthrough build.

Those gimmick lulz crushthrough builds are actually already incredibly effective at 10 PS. I tried it out myself and was breaking skulls like buttering bread. 1 hit kill city. I'm not even very good at it. There is a very good player I see sometimes carrying a maul. I saw him overhead swing it and break a shield, a tin cans skull, and kill the charger he was sitting on in one strike. He did it twice in the same round too. While I think that is awesome, I don't want to imagine what a 15PS version of that would be. It doesn't seem like it can get any better then that, so maybe he's already figured out the 15 cap.

Also here are my revised suggestions, I'm not 100% sure on them yet but I wanted to change the list asap. I'll sit down and consider it in more detail later but it should do for now as a base. Im going to see if I can invite whats left of the games other throwers in here to post opinions and experiences.

Reduce throwing base damage but have powerthrow increase damage by a larger amount per point. Remove the terrible wpf per PT and PD restriction for ranged, instead having accuracy, distance, speed, etc, start off much poorer and increase more drastically in relation to amount invested. Increase stacks, or reduce slots back to 1.