Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[Cheap_Shot]

My wish list (although I abandoned having a throwing main after being in a strategios battle, I love playing with my pure throwing alts).

• Take away the stupid wpf requirement.
• I would like all throwing weapons over francisca to be 3 slot but have usefully large stack size: i.e. 12 jarids.
• I would like the wpf to reflect accuracy and running accuracy more.
• PT should increase damage, range, shot speed and lower the trajectory of the missile but have no other effect on accuracy.
• Heavy axes to be replaced by two handed axes (but I have not seen any in any mod yet): any budding animators?.

There's some good ideas in there. I hadn't even considered the possibility of some 3 slot throwing weapons with large stack size. There might be something to that.

edit: I don't know if this is possible, but it would be really awesome if stack size was small for single throwing weapons (which it is, no change needed) but if you equipped the same throwing weapons in three slots, it boosted your stack size. That would be a clear investment advantage.

[Vammo75]

There's some good ideas in there. I hadn't even considered the possibility of some 3 slot throwing weapons with large stack size. There might be something to that.

The whole point of the nerf was to stop hybrids using the top 1h/shield or 2h and the top throwing weapons in quantity. I think this would fix it. If you want to be a Viking you could still take a bunch of throwing axes but you would have to fight in melee with them and use a lower order shield.

[Ronin]

I would want throwing lances to cost less slots maybe? 1 ammo per 2 slots, the weapon just shouts DON'T USE ME!

My suggestion would be that power throw skill may also add some slots to rebalance the throwing system.

[Lichen]

I would want throwing lances to cost less slots maybe? 1 ammo per 2 slots, the weapon just shouts DON'T USE ME!

A possibility is each throwing lance takes one slot (so 4 max). I do think there is a place for a super heavy hitting throwing weap but it needs to be done so that it's not commonplace and sufficient investment is required.

[AlbaTiger]

It's either that or have them actually be heavy hitting.

At the moment sure if you hit a wounded person or a low level person in a lightly armoured location the throwing lance can one hit kill but that is 1 of your 2 shots gone.

If you hit an unwounded horse or a person with high HP and okay armour the lance will hurt but they can keep going, or worse if you hit a shield it is pretty much totally wasted.

Not to mention if you have 2 lances your back up weapon is 0 slot and you are pretty much useless.

I think as far as all the weapons go the throwing lance is certainly the most problematic, the daggers and stars are okay as distractions or to slow down runners (though there doesn't need to be 3 types of stars imo), the medium sized ones need some tweaks with stack and damage, and the axes even in their current state are pretty good.

[Cheap_Shot]

Things that should 100% be changed:

• Remove wpf restriction.
• Have wpf have much more of an effect on accuracy.
• Have shields lower accuracy.
• Have heirlooming throwing weapons increase stack size again. (at most, 1-2 at full heirloom) Possibly projectile speed.

Current points of discussion:

• If throwing weapons are all made 1 slot, is it even possible for them to receive stack bonuses when three stacks are equipped?
• Should base throwing damage be reduced and have power throw increase damage by a larger amount?
• Should the powerthrow requirement to use some weapons be increased?
• Should powerthrow effect possible throw distance? Apparently it does effect shot speed/distance. Should the effect be more significant?
• Should wpf effect projectile speed?
• How do you deter people from using throwing weapons without point investment? (aka plate 2h dudes tk'ing because they have no throwing wpf)
• Should base stack size be increased, or should slots be reduced? Possible other options?
• Other possible ideas.

Edit: Changed throw speed to projectile speed to clarify. Thanks San.
Edit2: According to Paul, PT does infact effect shot speed. Thanks Paul.

[San]

Things that should 100% be changed:

    Remove wpf restriction.
-Yes, or highly tweak

    Have wpf have much more of an effect on accuracy.
-Yes

    Have shields lower accuracy.
-As a shielder, I would be fine with this. Even if you throw with a shield, there is still quite a bit of cooldown before we can shield again.
 
  Have heirlooming throwing weapons increase stack size again.
- Not really sure what to think of this. First we need stack sized fixed in general.


Current points of discussion:

    If throwing weapons are all made 1 slot, is it even possible for them to receive stack bonuses when three stacks are equipped?
-It depends if the maximum amount that can be carried for that weapon is an acceptable amount. 1slot +1 stack = +4 overall. For weapons with default stack sizes below 5 or 4, that's unacceptable.
   
 Should base throwing damage be reduced and have power throw increase damage by a larger amount?
-Yes. There should be a decent reward for investing in throwing. Don't invest, and expect a bad payoff.
   
 Should the powerthrow requirement to use some weapons be increased?
-The high damage weapons needs a higher requirement, definitely. The whole PT spectrum should be used (up to like 8-9 difficulty). Even with crap accuracy, if a high damage throwing weapon is thrown at a group of people, it's bound to hit somebody.
   
 Should powerthrow effect possible throw distance?
-Never really thought of this before. The throwing distance seems acceptable currently. If we throw at ~ a 45 degree angle, it still goes very far (albeit very slow).
 
  Should wpf effect throw speed?
-Throw speed as in the delay or the actual speed of the projectile? It would be nice if projectile speed gets increased. Throwing is already very fast compared to other ranged weapons as far as throwing multiple times is concerned, so no problem there.
   
    How do you deter people from using throwing weapons without point investment? (aka plate 2h dudes tk'ing because they have no throwing wpf)
-There were suggestions for higher difficulty and higher slots. A medium-high slot like 2 and a higher difficulty seems fine. 3 slots seems like it'll work for something like the throwing lances, though.
   
    Should base stack size be increase, or should slots be reduced? Possible other options?
-Just increase stack size. Higher slots decrease the effectiveness over increasing stack sizes through looms, and prevents slot abuse from hybrids and more dedication to having them as a viable option.
    Other possible ideas.

[Cheap_Shot]

Some great points. Thanks San. Also I clarified the point about throwing speed, thanks. I intended it as projectile speed. It would be nice if powerthrow effected projectile speed. Drawing, pulling back, and releasing throwing weapons is fair and shouldn't be changed really. After they leave your hand however, they're painfully slow.

I believe that heirlooming should increase stack size again, probably by the smallest amount, maybe +1 per two heirloom points, because currently heirlooming throwing weapons is the most useless thing. There needs to be some kind of reason to heirloom them. Right now they barely change. Adding to stack size also rewards people who invest into throwing. Those who just decide to huck them around before whipping out a 2hander or a polearm aren't going to have heirloomed throwing weapons.

powerthrow effecting distance makes sense in my mind. If you throw something with more power it should go further. Up for debate though.

I don't know what should be done about lances. They were thinking of just removing them but I don't know about that.

Anyways lets keep the discussion going. Lots of good points San.

[Ronin]

If the requirement for throwing weapons will go high, they need to be more rewarding in my point of view. But reducing the amount of base damage of throwing weapons does not sound like rewarding at all. I played as a pure thrower in last versions with giving no power strike at all. And I got quite bored because it was just ridiculous. You need to get close to your enemy, you have a few chances to shoot, then you have to face in melee. You have to wait for an ally to save you, before you block in wrong direction. Even if you got saved you won't have many weapons to throw left at all. The range increase buff would be cool, but won't be very significant. Because this is THROWING, not something like crossbow or a bow. A thrower had to be advance in melee like a close-combat-fighter. In native there are 3 types of choice. Cavalry, Archer and Infantry. There is not something like javelin thrower for rhodok, or jarid cavalry for Sarranid. They are included in the weaponry of Infantry and Cavalry as a side weapon. Mostly secondary weapon.

And my point about throwing lances that they are the weapons that attracted me to throwing in cRPG. If they go, there wouldn't be anything interesting for throwers (for me after all). I would rather go to native and continue with my bloodraged throwing without suffering from any stupid nerf.

[Gorath]

In native there are 3 types of choice. Cavalry, Archer and Infantry. There is not something like javelin thrower for rhodok, or jarid cavalry for Sarranid. They are included in the weaponry of Infantry and Cavalry as a side weapon. Mostly secondary weapon.

The way they should be.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

The way they should be.

Then go back and play native then Gorath

[ArchonAlarion]

The way they should be.

+1

[Ronin]

Then go back and play native then Gorath

The problem is we can. This mod is competing with other mods, including native. And since WFAS released, also WFAS.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

The problem is we can. This mod is competing with other mods, including native. And since WFAS released, also WFAS.

Well I'm not gonna try and stop anyone CRPG seems to be doing better and better these days

[DANK]

The throwing nerf was the best thing that happened all year. lol