cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: FrugFrug on October 31, 2012, 04:24:40 am

Title: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: FrugFrug on October 31, 2012, 04:24:40 am
I keep getting the "Proficiency in bows is too low" message even though I have 163 wpf with 5 PD and 4 total armor weight.  :?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Krosis on October 31, 2012, 04:29:01 am
I really hope this isn't how they nerfed archery, because at any level it would be useless.

I have 140 wpf 6 power draw and I'm getting the same message..


Low reload, wide crosshairs, it's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: STOPHammerTime on October 31, 2012, 05:42:13 am
Low reload, wide crosshairs, it's ridiculous.

You mean archery is now challenging?!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Krosis on October 31, 2012, 05:52:36 am
there's a difference between challenging and nearly impossible.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cyclopsided on October 31, 2012, 06:00:12 am
Regularly scheduled archery nerf.
Enjoy betatesting
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Krosis on October 31, 2012, 06:06:55 am
lol... really?

I was hoping it was a bug but it looks like I might just go to another build now.


Basically buffed cav, xbow cav, horse archery.. those will be next on the crying list.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cyclopsided on October 31, 2012, 06:12:44 am
EDIT: WORKING AS INTENDED

Best patch to date good job great balance team. hi-five.
But offer a free respec. This is huge.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: agile on October 31, 2012, 06:13:08 am
I have 166 wpf and 7 PD and I also get the message of " not enough weapon prof in archery".
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kelugarn on October 31, 2012, 06:59:19 am
So first there's a bug that makes archery super accurate, now there's a bug that makes it completely useless after they hotfix the first bug? Priceless.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mwahahaha on October 31, 2012, 07:07:59 am
I have 166 wpf and 7 PD and I also get the message of " not enough weapon prof in archery".

Same shit, also my aim is too big  :?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Rage_Guy on October 31, 2012, 07:48:24 am
Archer baddies:
(click to show/hide)
But on a serious note, archery feels even more harder-hitting that pre patch. On my main with 46 body armor and no ironflesh, one arrow usually takes 50 - 70% of my hp. :(
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: AluminumMonster on October 31, 2012, 09:22:07 am
canary said athletics lowers wpf now and not PD....

waitting for free respec.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: POOPHAMMER on October 31, 2012, 09:26:37 am
canary said athletics lowers wpf now and not PD....

waitting for free respec.

ahahahahaha i hope this is true
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: a_bear_irl on October 31, 2012, 09:27:41 am
please god let that be true
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Moncho on October 31, 2012, 09:28:37 am
canary said athletics lowers wpf now and not PD....

waitting for free respec.
are you bloody serious? What about riding? Or are HR going to be buffed by this?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: AluminumMonster on October 31, 2012, 10:00:38 am
dunno how athletics would lower wpf when you have to STOP for a clear shot anyways... but maybe i dont understand logic???
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: FrugFrug on October 31, 2012, 10:04:17 am
Yep, just tested it with my STF.

Athletics reduces WPF, not sure by how much though.

I never kited with my archer for more than 5 seconds to grab a weapon, but this athletics reducing wpf really messes up my MW shortbow build because there is no reason to go above 15 strength for the max PD on the bow.  :?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Pentecost on October 31, 2012, 10:04:42 am
What I heard through the grapevine about the changes to archery(you will probably want to run some tests yourself, as some of this may not be correct):
-The power draw wpf penalty was removed
-You instead suffer a wpf penalty proportional to your athletics
-The purpose of these changes is to both deal with the problem of kiting and to balance strength archers against agility archers. The former are going to be damaging and accurate but can't run away, while the latter are going to be fast but less accurate. In other words, archers will now have to consider the tradeoffs of the different possible builds more carefully than before. No longer will 18/24 be the hands-down best build of dedicated archery.
-How this affects HA is unknown, although, if I had to make an educated guess, I would assume the penalty does not apply to riding.


Ultimately, I think this is a step in the right direction, although I also think that some other changes are in order as well. The fact that, regardless of the kind of archer you are, you will be stuck with a 40ish reach 0 slot melee weapon and, depending on your build, you might also be stuck with little to no athletics on top of it means that defending yourself in melee is going to be very difficult even if you are good at melee. I would suggest either:

a.) making certain rudimentary weapons like the quarterstaff or normal maul (the English longbowmen at Agincourt apparently had mauls as part of their kit) zero slot

OR

b.) increasing the size of arrow stacks so that only taking 1 stack is a viable choice and that an archer with some melee skill can then bring a rudimentary weapon rather than a subpar one
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Everkistus on October 31, 2012, 10:05:48 am
I got a 21/21 balanced build as an archer with some PS and 1h WPF. I'll be dumbstruck if my balanced build actually got nerfed because it's... too balanced?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Fips on October 31, 2012, 10:57:06 am
Free respecc, NOW!
I'm fine with having less athletics, but i can't just get rid of them. Respecc with 95mio xp is not an option.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: dodnet on October 31, 2012, 11:15:08 am
Working as intended! For each PD you need 9000 WPF.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Molly on October 31, 2012, 11:17:47 am
Loving it.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on October 31, 2012, 11:25:38 am
Bazillions of anti-kiting suggestions made.


Dev team goes like

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


And makes a new one

 
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Joker86 on October 31, 2012, 11:35:38 am
I like the intention, but I dislike the solution. IMHO being faster than infantry is an important part of being an archer. If you are slower than infantry, then your gameplay will turn to "shoot as many arrows as you can until an infantry player decides to approach you", at least on the average public server matches with no teamplay.

Another negative aspect are missing tradeoffs. Archers need mainly PD, WM and ATH. They nerfed ATH in a way where the connection to the other two skills is very low. You can crutch AGI to push your WM and thus being able to increase ATH a bit, but that's it (because WM stacking is only effective to a certain, rather limited level), and we still have to find out if the possible ATH increase is worth it. Most likely we will have one or two rather balanced builds concerning PD and WM, and people will raise those few points of ATH they are allowed to without negative effect. All archers will play the same. If for example high PD would lower this ATH cap, and low PD would keep it higher, then we would have a tradeoff and probably more different builds... but I guess we need to find out more about the mechanics and the set values to be ablte to tell more...

I am really disappointed that the devs seem to be only able to balance things by reducing or raising the effectivity of something (= buffing or nerfing), and that they decide for nerfing in most cases.

Another thing are the patch note politics. chadz wrote "Patch note yet to come", but we know it's a plain lie. And I think it's really an impudence to not tell people what exactly changed, and let all the archer respecc after the patch only to let them find out that after the hotfix everything is different. If people don't get a free respecc I really don't know what to think about the understanding of fairness of the developers.  :?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 31, 2012, 11:38:29 am
For Str Archers it seems IF or PS is the new ATH...? Or riding...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Macropus on October 31, 2012, 11:43:02 am
It's funny how people say "remove kiting" like it's a ... I dunno, an item or a stat.
In common sense people with higher athletics should move faster and they can use it as they like - either to run or to increase damage due to the speed bonus etc. Why do high-agi melee char with a great long bardiche can hit&run (which is basically kiting) and archer shouldn't be able to do that?

Can you "remove" the ability of high-agi melee characters to hit and run away? I don't think so, because the only way of cutting their agility and making them str-chars is a wrong way.
High agi characters should be able to use their speed advantage, as well as str-chars use their advantage of high damage. And no matter - melee or ranged.
I hope you got the point. Yes I think kiting isn't a problem, as well as backpedal fighters, as well as str-stacking killmachines or whatever. Everything is fine.  :)

I'm not saying this new feature about wpf is a bad thing, though I don't really get it. I'm pretty sure it's just a step to a better way to deal with kiting (like making archers move slower only when they draw their bow and removing jumpshooting or anything else),
but what I'm saying is that archers should be able to run fast without penalties to their shooting abilities.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on October 31, 2012, 11:45:03 am
I like the intention, but I dislike the solution. IMHO being faster than infantry is an important part of being an archer. If you are slower than infantry, then your gameplay will turn to "shoot as many arrows as you can until an infantry player decides to approach you", at least on the average public server matches with no teamplay.

I think it's because we haven't seen that kind of action in months that we think archers without kiting don't work. They do, and they increase teamwork, having to stick with melee bodyguards.

Another negative aspect are missing tradeoffs. Archers need mainly PD, WM and ATH. They nerfed ATH in a way where the connection to the other two skills is very low. You can crutch AGI to push your WM and thus being able to increase ATH a bit, but that's it (because WM stacking is only effective to a certain, rather limited level), and we still have to find out if the possible ATH increase is worth it. Most likely we will have one or two rather balanced builds concerning PD and WM, and people will raise those few points of ATH they are allowed to without negative effect. All archers will play the same.

I am really disappointed that the devs seem to be only able to balance things by reducing or raising the effectivity of something (= buffing or nerfing), and that they decide for nerfing in most cases.

Another thing are the patch note politics. chadz wrote "Patch note yet to come", but we know it's a plain lie. And I think it's really an impudence to not tell people what exactly changed, and let all the archer respecc after the patch only to let them find out that after the hotfix everything is different. If people don't get a free respecc I really don't know what to think about the understanding of fairness of the developers.  :?

I'm not sure, but I think there are more tradeoffs now than before. Before, almost all level 30 archers were this :

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 59

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 3
    Power Strike: 0
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 7
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 6
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 7

    One Handed: 1
    Two Handed: 1
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 165
    Crossbow: 1
    Throwing: 1


With a variation on the 3 IF points.


Now you have to make a tradeoff between PD and WM, because one doesn't become useless above 6 anymore.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Rhekimos on October 31, 2012, 11:52:44 am
For Str Archers it seems IF or PS is the new ATH...? Or riding...

Nic raises a good point as well. This change is great for pure horse archers, they have nothing reducing their wpf and they can kite quite well.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on October 31, 2012, 11:54:08 am
Nic raises a good point as well. This change is great for pure horse archers, they have nothing reducing their wpf and they can kite quite well.

And now they also don't have to fear lances that much anymore.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BlueKnight on October 31, 2012, 12:03:30 pm
It should be that archer simply has to stop to draw his bow and shoot. Not like he can start drawing his bow while running and then just stop to shoot. Imho it would be better option and wouldn't make athletics a flaw for archers standing at 1 position most of the time.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Sagar on October 31, 2012, 12:13:28 pm
Next patch - higher riding, reducing wpf. So next thing is a horse archers on Sumpter horse.
Devs shod tell comunyty is this a final, so archers over 30 lvl can make respec for new builds.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Falka on October 31, 2012, 12:26:19 pm
waitting for free respec.
Good luck, but... ehm, have you ever seen free respec in cRPG? I'm not an archer but partial free respec - possibility to remove skill points from ATH and put them somewhere else - would be fair move  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: karasu on October 31, 2012, 12:34:06 pm
It's a beta mod, you can't expect a free respecc every time something changes. Over 24 gens I had to respecc several times, specially on lvl 32 and 33.



(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Andswaru on October 31, 2012, 12:35:15 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Corsair831 on October 31, 2012, 12:47:36 pm
yeah tbh archers are gay, i think everyone that uses 2h and kuyak should absorb arrows and it should add to hp because kuyak is cool and 2h is cool and takes skill makes user look like aragorn who is also cool, but archery is gay, because makes you look like legolas, who is gay, and therefore archery gay.

YEAHOKLOL
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: fosr on October 31, 2012, 01:01:53 pm
Please God save archers...
                         
by:A high ping archers player
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Pentecost on October 31, 2012, 01:47:40 pm
Why do high-agi melee char with a great long bardiche can hit&run (which is basically kiting) and archer shouldn't be able to do that?

Because they are not comparable examples.

Regardless of how much agility he has, the guy with the Great Long Bardiche or other long four directional weapon still needs to step within retaliation range of his opponent to actually do damage. Said opponent will be able to block, counterattack, and potentially defeat him as a result. An 18/24 archer, on the other hand, does not need to step within retaliation range of his opponent to do damage. If he is playing correctly, the archer will be able to run away from his opponent almost indefinitely and deal damage in such a way that his opponent has no chance of counterattacking--ever--unless it's a thrower.

Even still, this might be a somewhat acceptable situation if this 18/24 archer, the one that is effectively invulnerable against the majority of melee players in 1v1, wasn't also the most accurate and damaging kind of archer as well. As many, many people have previously pointed out, a 30 str 10pd archer only does a little more damage than a 18/24 archer at distances closer than 20m and actually does less damage than an 18/24 archer at distances further than 20m due to much higher wpf. The 18/24 archer has fantastic draw speed and accuracy compared to the 30 str 10 pd archer for the same reason. How is this in any way balanced?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 31, 2012, 01:55:43 pm
9 wm and 2 athl for tzeh win. :D
I knew my build would win someday in the future.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Macropus on October 31, 2012, 02:14:03 pm
Regardless of how much agility he has, the guy with the Great Long Bardiche or other long four directional weapon still needs to step within retaliation range of his opponent to actually do damage. Said opponent will be able to block, counterattack, and potentially defeat him as a result. An 18/24 archer, on the other hand, does not need to step within retaliation range of his opponent to do damage. If he is playing correctly, the archer will be able to run away from his opponent almost indefinitely and deal damage in such a way that his opponent has no chance of counterattacking--ever--unless it's a thrower.
Well archers have their drawbacks for that, like low armor, low melee capabilities and so on, I think just that everyone should be free to use his athletics as he wants because otherwise there's no much sense in getting ath at all.
And I don't mind increasing damage of str-archers, I think that would be fine and would make more versality for archer builds.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Overdriven on October 31, 2012, 02:31:01 pm
If archers aren't able to use as much ath then they should be given more melee capabilities so they can stand and fight when the time comes. Not just a 0 slot hammer. And no, sacrificing a bag of arrows for a 1 slot weapon isn't particularly viable either unless the arrow count increases.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on October 31, 2012, 02:37:38 pm
I'm highly disappointed... Not an agreeable "solution" to a "problem". Sure it'll get tweaked, I'll wait and see for that, but I am struggling to find words to describe this "addition" without being sarcastic, going over the same points again and generally not shouting abuse at people who don't deserve it, it's a beta created by people who do this for free and they don't need the agro but... Gah...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2012, 02:45:24 pm
My archer build before:
(click to show/hide)

How I would make my archer build now:
(click to show/hide)

So how about you try something new where you don't run away but fight when someone comes near?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Leshma on October 31, 2012, 02:48:47 pm
You don't need 7 PS, not with new Longsword/HBS values. Also that new dagger is wicked, 4 PS is enough for it.

Too bad arba still generates low scores, I was thinking of arba+rondel+buckler build.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2012, 02:53:18 pm
You don't need 7 PS, not with new Longsword/HBS values. Also that new dagger is wicked, 4 PS is enough for it.

Too bad arba still generates low scores, I was thinking of arba+rondel+buckler build.
Yeah, but I would just end up using a 1h sword instead, so I would need the 7 PS because of the low damage (and lower speed and length for a higher price  too). And that new sexy dagger is badass, but really short. Hmmm, Longbow, Long Arming Sword, Bodkins and dagger? Awwww yeah!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Pejlaen on October 31, 2012, 02:54:27 pm
Does anyone have the formula for how many wpf 1 Ath consumes? Thanks :)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Grumbs on October 31, 2012, 02:56:05 pm
I don't think it was ever intended that so many would play this like its an FPS game, a one sided "I have a gun and you don't" type of fps game at that. Its M&B..the only reason this game ever got its recognition was its melee and cav mechanics..everything else is fluff or second rate bargain bin fps mechanics. The domain is even called "meleegaming", wish people would get out of the mindset of expecting to rape from range, its just not supposed to be that type of game
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Leshma on October 31, 2012, 03:03:37 pm
Yeah, but I would just end up using a 1h sword instead, so I would need the 7 PS because of the low damage (and lower speed and length for a higher price  too). And that new sexy dagger is badass, but really short. Hmmm, Longbow, Long Arming Sword, Bodkins and dagger? Awwww yeah!

I've used MW KAS with 5, 6 and 7 PS. There's hardly any noticeable difference in combat. Even if you compare 15/15 build with 21/18. Dunno why, but it felt the same most of the time.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Moncho on October 31, 2012, 03:10:21 pm
I've used MW KAS with 5, 6 and 7 PS. There's hardly any noticeable difference in combat. Even if you compare 15/15 build with 21/18. Dunno why, but it felt the same most of the time.

I disagree with this. I have been a lot of my gens 15/21 shielder with MW Military Cleaver, and now I am 18/18 (going for 21/18 at lvl 30) and I can already feel the difference, with less WPF but the extra PS.
Yet again, it is all about the perception
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2012, 03:21:58 pm
I've used MW KAS with 5, 6 and 7 PS. There's hardly any noticeable difference in combat. Even if you compare 15/15 build with 21/18. Dunno why, but it felt the same most of the time.
Can I ask what your wpf was with them?

I agree that 5 PS is enough when you got 140+ wpf because of the extra damage from it, but when you got 50-100, then you kinda want the extra PS. At least that's how I feel like. 100 wpf and 6 PS is what I prefer the most, though, but since that build has 21 STR, why not get the last one? Then you also keep more wpf since you don't get 1 more athl.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Grumpy_Nic on October 31, 2012, 03:22:08 pm
If archers aren't able to use as much ath then they should be given more melee capabilities so they can stand and fight when the time comes. Not just a 0 slot hammer. And no, sacrificing a bag of arrows for a 1 slot weapon isn't particularly viable either unless the arrow count increases.

I somehow agree here but there are more melee capabilities. If you do not invest in ATH, which is the reason why you cannot run away you might put the points in PS and use a 1 slot weapon. As usual, specialising in 1 area makes you weak in others, same as a balanced build is pretty good in more areas but not supercool in anyone. Take longspear/pike, arbalest, heavy lancer + shield. They all have their main weapon which takes 3 slots and can take a backup weapon if they choose so.
Only one of the above mentioned builds/classes uses ammo which is the arbalest and the rest can be used without limit, which at the same time makes my whole post a good and a bad example - depending on your point of view.

Anyway, as an archer you specialise in ranged combat and are free to fill up 4 slots as you like, as all other players. You want a powerfull bow and many arrows, then you have 0 slots for melee. You want to be able to use a good melee weapon you have to keep at least 1 slot free of bow/arrows.

A hoplite that takes a board shield and a spear has 4 slots occupied, he is not able to use throwing weapons, maybe he would like to use them - but he only has 4 slots. He can take another shield which only uses 1 slot, but maybe thats not the shield he would like to use - gotta make a decision then.

I'm not saying its fair that many builds are useless now without possibility of free respec, but archers are not useless now.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Xol! on October 31, 2012, 03:24:32 pm
Tested a 30/12 10 PD 4 WM 3 IF build on my STF.

I'm 2 shotting people with an unloomed rus bow & tatar arrows.

I can't really kite at all.

As a melee/cav main, this is great.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Leshma on October 31, 2012, 03:25:00 pm
Can I ask what your wpf was with them?

I agree that 5 PS is enough when you got 140+ wpf because of the extra damage from it, but when you got 50-100, then you kinda want the extra PS. At least that's how I feel like. 100 wpf and 6 PS is what I prefer the most, though, but since that build has 21 STR, why not get the last one? Then you also keep more wpf since you don't get 1 more athl.

Between 95 and 130 wpf. Thing is that, even with 7 PS, MW KAS isn't deadly weapon.

MW Military Cleaver is a different weapon and truly deadly with 7 or 8 PS.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Macropus on October 31, 2012, 03:41:59 pm
The funny thing is - archers don't really need a lot of accurasy to kite. So they kite as always, though now it just takes more time and that's all.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Xol! on October 31, 2012, 03:52:52 pm
Tested a 30/12 10 PD 4 WM 3 IF build on my STF.

I'm 2 shotting people with an unloomed rus bow & tatar arrows.

I can't really kite at all.

As a melee/cav main, this is great.

Scratch that:  30/9, 10 PD, 10 PS, 3 WM, 120 Archery wpf/ 61 1h wpf 2h wpf (yumi bow +mallet)

This is hilariously effective.

Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: the real god emperor on October 31, 2012, 04:12:54 pm
They couldn't balanced teams, but they ruined unbalancers. Thats better :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Jarlek on October 31, 2012, 04:33:46 pm
Between 95 and 130 wpf. Thing is that, even with 7 PS, MW KAS isn't deadly weapon.

MW Military Cleaver is a different weapon and truly deadly with 7 or 8 PS.
KAS is a shitty scrub weapon, it is known. LAS is the sword for fashionable gentlemen with testicles the size of Uranus.

I know the LAS (basically KAS, but cheaper and better looking) isn't that good anymore. I just keep it for ye olde days when 1h stabs where difficult but badass. Ahh, all the facestabs I've done with my LAS. Be it from horseback, on foot with a shield or as a sidearm for my archergens. It has a special place in my heart. The Italian is good and all, but it lacks.... flair. It's a good enough mistress, but it will never have the same charm as my old Long Arming Sword.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adamar on October 31, 2012, 04:44:59 pm
I was hopping that being a melee archer would be less of a burden, not more.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Juhanius on October 31, 2012, 04:47:14 pm
It was hard work grinding my athletic focused archer to level 33... now completely useless. How about good old free respec when changes are this crucial? Maybe time to move another games.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Teeth on October 31, 2012, 04:49:15 pm
I like the intention ...IMHO being faster than infantry is an important part of being an archer...
Making them slower was the intention, not the solution, you dislike the intention.

If you are slower than infantry, then your gameplay will turn to "shoot as many arrows as you can until an infantry player decides to approach you", at least on the average public server matches with no teamplay.
Current gameplay was 'shoot as many arrows as you can until an infantry player decides to approach you, run away, shoot as many arrows as you can and laugh at him while he cries in despair without being able to do anything'. How is that better? My solution and about 5 other soultions for kiting archers were a whole lot better than what they did now, but I am already glad something's been done.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on October 31, 2012, 04:50:47 pm
It was hard work grinding my athletic focused archer to level 33... now completely useless. How about good old free respec when changes are this crucial? Maybe time to move another games.

No class ever had a free respec, and frankly archers would deserve it the least.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Osiris on October 31, 2012, 04:53:54 pm
and yet people still havent learnt to wait at least a day or two before rage quitting, rage trading or rage respeccing :D Like always if the devs think they have over done it they will change it either back or to a lesser extent :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: cmp on October 31, 2012, 04:55:18 pm
It's sort of bugged. ATH should reduce WPF, but now it also reduces PD (resulting in the "your proficiency is too low" message).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adamar on October 31, 2012, 04:56:04 pm
You guys should allow 2 or 3 athlectics for melee purposes.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 31, 2012, 04:57:03 pm
i have 2 and im fine.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mogh on October 31, 2012, 05:05:29 pm
What a crappy nerf. Now archers will be forced to be slower than the nuclear powered tincans who rape them in melee. No reason to play as archer now, they're just a shitty melee class with a negligible ranged attack.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Nebun on October 31, 2012, 05:10:14 pm
this is just fucks everything up for high level archers, any free respec after ruining patch like this?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Osiris on October 31, 2012, 05:11:24 pm
shik and cmp said its slightly bugged/being tweaked so wait for update :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: TurmoilTom on October 31, 2012, 05:14:16 pm
It's sort of bugged. ATH should reduce WPF, but now it also reduces PD (resulting in the "your proficiency is too low" message).

Everyone goes on as if this wasn't posted...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rAve on October 31, 2012, 05:16:59 pm
i hope they nerf archery a bit more, they still have arrows and can shoot....
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 31, 2012, 05:22:15 pm
I am all for free respecs. The only problem are the Training lessons on which people spend millions of gold. They might think the've been taken for fools.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: San on October 31, 2012, 05:31:46 pm
Archers are going to be more damaging now, since PD usually lowered effective wpf by ~30-40 or so on average, right?

I think even 18/24 archers wouldn't see much more of a decrease in wpf than before. I wish there were partial respecs at least for some stats, since full respecs are pretty powerful.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Moncho on October 31, 2012, 05:36:03 pm
Archers are going to be more damaging now, since PD usually lowered effective wpf by ~30-40 or so on average, right?

I think even 18/24 archers wouldn't see much more of a decrease in wpf than before. I wish there were partial respecs at least for some stats, since full respecs are pretty powerful.
It reduced it by 14 points per level. That is 70 points with 5 PD, and 84 with 6, which meant basically you had about half your starting wpf...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Thomek on October 31, 2012, 05:38:03 pm
If you won't give free respecs, maybe putting some more training lessons on the market would be a good compromise..
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Nebun on October 31, 2012, 05:39:34 pm
shik and cmp said its slightly bugged/being tweaked so wait for update :P

Its bugged because it also reduces PD, which i didn't even think about when entered server, i'm more concerned about WPF reduction which isn't bugged and if its stays like this my build is unplayable. Its like playing with 80wpf at the moment. If its stays like this we need a choice of free respec into another class or into different type of archer.
I don't share your joy in forcing ppl to retire his char all the time or respec and lose half of his exp. I really want to get to 35 one day and stay there. I don't like leveling, i just like playing with firends and strat battles.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Nebun on October 31, 2012, 05:42:14 pm
If you won't give free respecs, maybe putting some more training lessons on the market would be a good compromise..

Archers usually don't make any money. I've lost 50k last week playing archer. (Edited) Then i play my inf alt to make some money to compensate. I think most archers in same situation, unless they leaching. I can't afford paid training lesson with 150k i got at the moment. None of DRZ archers can, i know for sure.

PS: maybe just limit archers in Athletics, for example with 6pd u can have 4ath, with 5pd - 5ath, 4pd - 6ath... then fast archers won't deal much damage. And PD archers won't run away from anyone.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: San on October 31, 2012, 05:43:42 pm
It reduced it by 14 points per level. That is 70 points with 5 PD, and 84 with 6, which meant basically you had about half your starting wpf...

Thanks for the correction. Once the bug is fixed, I doubt even 18/24 archers' wpf would be reduced much more drastically than it was before, but people should be able to slightly tweak their stats.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BlackMilk on October 31, 2012, 05:45:36 pm
Archers usually don't make any money. I've made +50k last week playing archer.
You made 50k in one week and you're still complaining? wtf?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Nebun on October 31, 2012, 05:46:49 pm
You made 50k in one week and you're still complaining? wtf?

sorry mistake - i lost 50k in one week :)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Osiris on October 31, 2012, 05:58:45 pm
just means archers are in the same boat as pure throwers i guess :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adamar on October 31, 2012, 06:14:03 pm
i have 2 and im fine.

They've said it themselfs that athlectics reduce wpf.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BlindGuy on October 31, 2012, 06:17:24 pm
You mean archery is now challenging?!

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!


You bring nothing positive to any game server except making a nice easy target for cav and archers. Your opinion now matter how correct it may be is not valued. Good day.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: bagge on October 31, 2012, 06:37:23 pm
It should be that archer simply has to stop to draw his bow and shoot. Not like he can start drawing his bow while running and then just stop to shoot. Imho it would be better option and wouldn't make athletics a flaw for archers standing at 1 position most of the time.

No. That will make me instarespec to another class, simply cause Crossbowers would be a even greater pain in the ass than they already are. Funny how archers can + that post. I guess you can't see the horror by implementing that. Have fun getting sniped once you try and draw your bow.

Anyway, as Phyrex have always claimed; you are messing to much with the game mechanics.

I guess it's a good time to say good bye to cRPG.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Aderyn on October 31, 2012, 06:42:03 pm
No. That will make me instarespec to another class, simply cause Crossbowers would be a even greater pain in the ass than they already are. Funny how archers can + that post. I guess you can't see the horror by implementing that. Have fun getting sniped once you try and draw your bow.

Anyway, as Phyrex have always claimed; you are messing to much with the game mechanics.

I guess it's a good time to say good bye to cRPG.

I agree with bagge 100% :/

on everything
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Nebun on October 31, 2012, 06:43:41 pm
Funny how one patch removed all ranged from strat :) Most DRZ archers can't participate in any strat battles right now, with our builds there is no point. It will just be mele fights right now. At list make it so we could play with 1 alt in strat battles plz.
I don't want to get banned for buying another key for mele char, but i can't really do anything with my archer either and don't want to respec from lvl 34.
We kind of sitting here and waiting when everything will go back to normal or we hear some news from chadz on how its going to be.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mwahahaha on October 31, 2012, 06:46:23 pm
save cRPG! left the old system for archers, you already nerfed damage and missile speed, enough pls. If it will be not fixed, then
good time to say good bye to cRPG.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tzar on October 31, 2012, 06:49:52 pm
Funny thing is archers play ranged to troll an avoid any sort of fair fights because they can do insane dmg an ignore combat all together an once the devs try to combat that they all insta rage  :lol:

Would be the best thing ever to happen to cRPG if they removed kiting an made it more appealing for archers to make sure they would be able to go melee when called for...

Hell... we might even be able to see Eu1 reach a 120 players at primetime again instead of the pre patch 60 players.....

Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tzar on October 31, 2012, 06:53:52 pm
My own opinion is that these changes are good ones overall, not because I hate archers and want to see them removed from the game or some nonsense like that, but because I feel they actually bring real tradeoffs to archery. You can choose to be slow but hard-hitting, or less powerful but very fast, or something in between and have most of the possible builds be viable in their own way. To me, this is preferable to having one build (18/24) and one weapon (MW Rus Bow) absolutely dominate dedicated archery because it is objectively better than all others.

However, as I stated here (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/is-archery-bugged-atm/15/), some additional changes should be considered. If archers who intend on being snipers rather than skirmishers are now going to have to fight in melee and will have to do it with practically no athletics, then they should have the option of using a slightly better weapon than a 40cm hammer or 52 cm hatchet. If a greatsworder can bring along a crossbow and steel bolts as his backup weapon, I see no reason that a longbowman shouldn't be allowed to bring a quarterstaff as his.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on October 31, 2012, 06:54:49 pm
Quote
It should be that archer simply has to stop to draw his bow and shoot. Not like he can start drawing his bow while running and then just stop to shoot. Imho it would be better option and wouldn't make athletics a flaw for archers standing at 1 position most of the time.

This. Or, make it so that you move much more slowly while drawing you bow.

Oh well, I better take this opportunity to shoot pure adrenaline into my k/d stats as a lancer.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: woody on October 31, 2012, 06:57:56 pm
I dislike this fix because:

1. It is purely for balance and makes no sense at all in "real world" terms and one of the great strengths of WB is a least a nod towards realism
2. It demolishes high lvl committed archers played for ages, something with no relevance to me but it renders a good build suddenly unusable
3. Archers should be able to run from infantry in armour, the whole rock, paper scissors approach of certain builds/eq types should not be thrown away. Inf wait for bloody flags if sulking too much. Archers were the balance for 2h heroes with no thrown weapon or shield
4. Its not a fix, its a nonsensical nerf
5. Taking away the exaggerated arrow stun which will actually knock you backwards mid jump would be more sensible
6. If this makes sense also apply it to melee and nerf agi freaks, makes as much sense
7. I cant stand hearing Adalwulf cry all the way from aboot land
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: TurmoilTom on October 31, 2012, 07:03:26 pm
1. It is purely for balance and makes no sense at all in "real world" terms and one of the great strengths of WB is a least a nod towards realism

If we gave half a shit about realism hoplites and longbowmen would be the most overpowered playstyles in the game, hands down.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: woody on October 31, 2012, 07:05:18 pm
Like I said a nod only, this change isnt even that and totally agree re longbowmen btw
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adamar on October 31, 2012, 07:15:42 pm
Funny thing is archers play ranged to troll an avoid any sort of fair fights because they can do insane dmg an ignore combat all together an once the devs try to combat that they all insta rage  :lol:

Would be the best thing ever to happen to cRPG if they removed kiting an made it more appealing for archers to make sure they would be able to go melee when called for...

Hell... we might even be able to see Eu1 reach a 120 players at primetime again instead of the pre patch 60 players.....

Athlectics is needed for melee.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tore on October 31, 2012, 07:15:44 pm
This nerfs hybrid archers more than my old friendchers, just make bows and arrows wieght a ton or something to reduce kiting :/
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Quentry on October 31, 2012, 07:22:50 pm
Ahhhh. my old friendchery nerfed!!!  :D
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Arrowblood on October 31, 2012, 07:23:42 pm
This nerfs hybrid archers more than my old friendchers, just make bows and arrows wieght a ton or something to reduce kiting :/
Already done .
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Aderyn on October 31, 2012, 07:28:40 pm
If we gave half a shit about realism hoplites and longbowmen would be the most overpowered playstyles in the game, hands down.

what about cav and xbowers?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BlueKnight on October 31, 2012, 07:29:03 pm
No. That will make me instarespec to another class, simply cause Crossbowers would be a even greater pain in the ass than they already are. Funny how archers can + that post. I guess you can't see the horror by implementing that. Have fun getting sniped once you try and draw your bow.

Anyway, as Phyrex have always claimed; you are messing to much with the game mechanics.

I guess it's a good time to say good bye to cRPG.
True, didn't think about xbowmen but to be honest, now when armour doesn't hurt achers' wpf that much, they can wear better armours and wll survive that arbalest shot. Anyway I guess my idea was still better than current solution and to be honest if you don't see a crosbowman he will still wait for you to "stop to shoot" and hunt ya.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mwahahaha on October 31, 2012, 07:30:17 pm
Ahhhh. my old friendchery nerfed!!!  :D

LOL a u mad? Nebun has nerf too! ok?

If an archer and a melee guy have same armour and  archer has Yumi and 2 of bodkins( total weight 3+3+1.5=7.5 ) and melee guy has italian sword and elite cav shield (5.5+1=6.5) he can catch an archer because of  total weight. wright? what is the problem then?   :evil:
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on October 31, 2012, 07:31:42 pm
Archery was already pretty hard due to all the other nerfs.  I think that some other aspect of archery should be buffed in order to balance out this nerf.  Perhaps a rate of fire or damage boost.  Just adding 1 more nerf to an already nerfed to hell class is pretty damn annoying. 
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mogh on October 31, 2012, 07:33:51 pm
what about cav and xbowers?

Buff em. Maximum trolling patch.

Especially buff cav xbowers.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rAve on October 31, 2012, 07:34:42 pm
seriously, all u archers need to stop crying and deal with it.
if you want to be able to shoot properly, dont give too many points to ath, its a FAIR DEAL, no more frikkin kiters. u get attacked by a melee player, u'll need to just fight back with ur side weapon and not kite.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Joker86 on October 31, 2012, 07:37:37 pm
I think it's because we haven't seen that kind of action in months that we think archers without kiting don't work. They do, and they increase teamwork, having to stick with melee bodyguards.

Then I predict a pretty hard time for random archers without clan mates on public servers, because bodyguards need to know they are bodyguards, and to be willing to do the job.  :wink:

I'm not sure, but I think there are more tradeoffs now than before. Before, almost all level 30 archers were this :

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 59
Now you have to make a tradeoff between PD and WM, because one doesn't become useless above 6 anymore.

Sorry, I expressed myself unclearly. I didn't mean you have less tradeoffs than before, I meant they let the opportunity pass to implement some strongly needed tradeoffs. If you have one value lowering the other it sounds like a tradeoff where you have to choose between two things or try to stay neutral. But there is not much choice between ATH and WPF, and that's why it is a simple reduction of possibilities and thus a very sad nerf.

Making them slower was the intention, not the solution, you dislike the intention.

The (most basic) intention was to remove kiting. The solution was to do it by making the archers slower and/or infantry faster. I dislike this solution. I would have preferred a solution which would have made kiting ineffective or unneccessary, instead of changing basic class mechanics. (Next to the fact that the way the slower-solution was implement is sub-par aswell.)


Current gameplay was 'shoot as many arrows as you can until an infantry player decides to approach you, run away, shoot as many arrows as you can and laugh at him while he cries in despair without being able to do anything'. How is that better? My solution and about 5 other soultions for kiting archers were a whole lot better than what they did now, but I am already glad something's been done.

In no way I think that the old gameplay was a single bit acceptable, but this solution here is just meh. It's half-hearted, uninspired and doesn't contribute any bit to making the game more awesome. Yes, it makes things more balanced, but in a way like a steamroll would make everthing plain and even.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rAve on October 31, 2012, 07:42:35 pm
archers have:
1. high speed to run way
2. perfect aim with their sniper like ability to shoot
3. high damage output like 2handers
4. AND they are ranged.

cant u realize that simply makes the game retarded? dont u even wonder why everyone is archer lately?

this patch finally makes them unable to kite, which adds to game balance, if u dont like it, go to a corner and cry plz
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adamar on October 31, 2012, 07:43:15 pm
seriously, all u archers need to stop crying and deal with it.
if you want to be able to shoot properly, dont give too many points to ath, its a FAIR DEAL, no more frikkin kiters. u get attacked by a melee player, u'll need to just fight back with ur side weapon and not kite.

Athlectics is needed for melee.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Fips on October 31, 2012, 07:44:22 pm
archers have:
1. high speed to run way
2. perfect aim with their sniper like ability to shoot
3. high damage output like 2handers
4. AND they are ranged.

cant u realize that simply makes the game retarded? dont u even wonder why everyone is archer lately?

this patch finally makes them unable to kite, which adds to game balance, if u dont like it, go to a corner and cry plz

God, you are even worse than Thomek.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mogh on October 31, 2012, 07:44:58 pm
seriously, all u archers need to stop crying and deal with it.
if you want to be able to shoot properly, dont give too many points to ath, its a FAIR DEAL, no more frikkin kiters. u get attacked by a melee player, u'll need to just fight back with ur side weapon and not kite.

Yes! When a lightly armed and armored warrior is charged by a plate armored giant wielding a massive sword his first instinct should be "go toe to toe with him!"
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rAve on October 31, 2012, 07:48:00 pm
Yes! When a lightly armed and armored warrior is charged by a plate armored giant wielding a massive sword his first instinct should be "go toe to toe with him!"

teamplay? stay close to ur own melee fighters, once they get close, u'll be able to assist
not run up a hill and hope that u can keep running everytime someone approaches u
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mogh on October 31, 2012, 07:56:58 pm
Hm, intredasting
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Gmnotutoo on October 31, 2012, 08:02:49 pm
I think archers deserve a free respec.

I'm level 32, sitting at 22 million exp. Pure archer build.

8 Power Draw, 6 Wpm, 6 Athletics.

So now I'm required to use the force to shoot a bow and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Aderyn on October 31, 2012, 08:05:46 pm
The game mechanics needs to stop being fiddled with. If the sole purpose of all of this is to nerf kiting archers (I really don't see why, i can only assume the flows of 2handers has been what could be described as rivers) then why didn't you just keep the extra weight on the bow and arrows and be done with it? Why would you fiddle with game mechanics?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rAve on October 31, 2012, 08:08:24 pm
The game mechanics needs to stop being fiddled with. If the sole purpose of all of this is to nerf kiting archers (I really don't see why, i can only assume the flows of 2handers has been what could be described as rivers) then why didn't you just keep the extra weight on the bow and arrows and be done with it? Why would you fiddle with game mechanics?

this ath penalty nerf doesn't apply to archers only, so they arent nerfing archers, they remove kiters but also, dont make them underpowered by nerfing agility melee builds.

so in fact, this is a melee nerf.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 31, 2012, 08:33:24 pm
Oi it's bugged. Archers stop whining until they fix it.

Once it's fixed, the minimum prof you will need is 78(6PD). With 6 athletics, you'd need 144 prof. PERFECTLY FINE FOR YOU!

Now just wait until they fix the damn thing so you aren't losing like 200 wpf cause of a bug.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on October 31, 2012, 09:14:34 pm
Oi it's bugged. Archers stop whining until they fix it.

Once it's fixed, the minimum prof you will need is 78(6PD). With 6 athletics, you'd need 144 prof. PERFECTLY FINE FOR YOU!

Now just wait until they fix the damn thing so you aren't losing like 200 wpf cause of a bug.

Of course the arrows will probably shoot sideways.  I like Mount and Blade because it's about player skill.  By reducing accuracy for archers like this it really becomes more like some stupid MMORPG, where you click "shoot" or whatever and then a random number generator tells you if you hit.  I'll wait and see what they do but this sounds like a "remove archers from the game" type patch to me.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 31, 2012, 09:15:52 pm
This is what they plan to do:
http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/is-archery-bugged-atm/msg642778/#msg642778
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on October 31, 2012, 10:17:48 pm

You bring nothing positive to any game server except making a nice easy target for cav and archers. Your opinion now matter how correct it may be is not valued. Good day.
You are so fucking wrong there. Unique chars are the most positive things there are in this game.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Taser on October 31, 2012, 10:39:21 pm
Between 95 and 130 wpf. Thing is that, even with 7 PS, MW KAS isn't deadly weapon.

MW Military Cleaver is a different weapon and truly deadly with 7 or 8 PS.

Hell yeah. I can attest to that.

Also this new patch makes me want to play more on my HA alt.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Garem on November 01, 2012, 12:05:21 am
seriously, all u melee need to stop crying and deal with it.
if you want to be able to fight properly, dont give too many points to melee, its a FAIR DEAL, no more frikkin solo heros. u get attacked by a ranged player, u'll need to just fight back with ur side (ranged) weapon [or shield] and not bitch.

fixed for you
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Bobthehero on November 01, 2012, 12:14:46 am
Both the shield and the side ranged weapon need either wpf investement or some high upkeep, or you simply don't have slots to carry it all.

Its a stupid argument.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cup1d on November 01, 2012, 12:29:40 am
Thank you, atm my hybrid build is unplayable.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Garem on November 01, 2012, 12:31:49 am
Both the shield and the side ranged weapon need either wpf investement or some high upkeep, or you simply don't have slots to carry it all.

Its a stupid argument.

Even the worst shields have no skill requirements, cost at most 29 gold to repair, and can take at least 2 (usually several more) arrows before breaking. No weapon in the game costs 4 slots, and the No-Sheathe weapons (all 5 of them or so?) are that way for a reason. Even the largest and most expensive 2H'ers are sheathable.

Crossbows don't require any WPF investment, only strength (at most 15, which is minimum STR for virtually all melee-focus builds).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on November 01, 2012, 12:34:46 am
I made a 24/18 STF with 3Ath with 6 WM and 8 PD so 154 wpf and it seemed OK. Was doing some good damage to enemies and hitting consistently. Just needed to be more careful where I stopped to shoot so I could relocate without too much harassment.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Bobthehero on November 01, 2012, 12:43:32 am
Even the worst shields have no skill requirements, cost at most 29 gold to repair, and can take at least 2 (usually several more) arrows before breaking. No weapon in the game costs 4 slots, and the No-Sheathe weapons (all 5 of them or so?) are that way for a reason. Even the largest and most expensive 2H'ers are sheathable.

Crossbows don't require any WPF investment, only strength (at most 15, which is minimum STR for virtually all melee-focus builds).

2 arrows, big whoop, won't change much agaisnt a kiter, hell it'll slow you down (a little tiny bit) and it'll be gone before you notice it.

Crossbows are meh with no wpf, and you get extra upkeep for it.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 01, 2012, 12:53:38 am
This is what they plan to do:
http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/is-archery-bugged-atm/msg642778/#msg642778

Oohilliac actually gave me a -1 for posting this. Like WTF, fallen rage much? Trying to suppress the info so more people rage and you get your way?....

Anyway, read that link, it details the changes that are supposed to happen with archery. (Also, blame shik)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Jarlek on November 01, 2012, 01:24:00 am
Oohilliac actually gave me a -1 for posting this. Like WTF, fallen rage much? Trying to suppress the info so more people rage and you get your way?....

Anyway, read that link, it details the changes that are supposed to happen with archery. (Also, blame shik)
Someone linking to the Devs response and they minus it? Shows how stupid some people are.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 01, 2012, 01:39:05 am
[19:46] <@Shik> 3 7 15 24 35 48 63 80 99 120
[19:48] <@Shik> 6 14 24 36 50 66 84 104 126 150
[19:49] <@Shik> old power draw formula: (14*PD)
[19:49] <@Shik> new: (15*PD - 1.5^PD)[/b]

So, unless I'm being a total fool here and misread this, the following (for my build) happens.

I have 160 wpf in ranged (95 in 2 handed just in case anyone jumps in, I fight in melee and only run if I know I can't win, you should feel proud if I run from you, because I fear you. Fight or flight for me is a calculated decision.)

8 athletics means 80wpf reduction (proposed)
6 power draw, so (15*6)-(1.5^6) = (90)-(11.4) =  78.6. (I will assume that this is an increase to wpf.)
78.6 wpf power draw bonus offset by the 80 reduction, -1.4

So effective (with no armour) wpf is 158.6.

Someone please correct me if I have misunderstood, chances are I have but I'm sure you fantastic people will guide me in the right direction! :)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 01, 2012, 01:43:52 am
So, unless I'm being a total fool here and misread this, the following (for my build) happens.

I have 160 wpf in ranged (95 in 2 handed just in case anyone jumps in, I fight in melee and only run if I know I can't win, you should feel proud if I run from you, because I fear you. Fight or flight for me is a calculated decision.)

8 athletics means 80wpf reduction (proposed)
6 power draw, so (15*6)-(1.5^6) = (90)-(11.4) =  78.6. (I will assume that this is an increase to wpf.)
78.6 wpf power draw bonus offset by the 80 reduction, -1.4

So effective (with no armour) wpf is 158.6.

Someone please correct me if I have misunderstood, chances are I have but I'm sure you fantastic people will guide me in the right direction! :)

Half right. You got the PD bonus correct.

So that means you need MINIMUM of 78.6 to use a bow. Your Raw WPF is 160. With 8 athletics you lose 80 RAW WPF. Thereby meaning you have 80 Effective wpf which is 1.4 OVER the required.

therefore you are good, but you don't have the MASS wpf you had before. You should drop 1 ath or gain more WM, but you are high level so...sucks to be you?

It's balanced at 18 agi/6 Ath. Anything higher and your cost starts to out weigh the faster speed bonus.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 01, 2012, 01:59:31 am
Half right. You got the PD bonus correct.

So that means you need MINIMUM of 78.6 to use a bow. Your Raw WPF is 160. With 8 athletics you lose 80 RAW WPF. Thereby meaning you have 80 Effective wpf which is 1.4 OVER the required.

therefore you are good, but you don't have the MASS wpf you had before. You should drop 1 ath or gain more WM, but you are high level so...sucks to be you?

Aaaah, right-oh. I got my hopes up by misinterpreting this.

So before hand I was on 160 wpf, minimum needed of 15*6=90, 70 over the requirement.

Hmmm... What a load of bollocks this is turning out to be. I'd have been quite happy with an increase in bow/arrow weight where I was slower while holding the bow, but I was able to drop it when I went into melee. I have the high athletics so that I can melee, not so I can run away, sure there are archers who leg it at the first sign of trouble, and if those guys are the problem, then attack them, not those of us who actually want a bit of variety.

This just doesn't seem to be the right way to go about this... No Tenne, walk away...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 01, 2012, 02:01:52 am
Oi it's bugged. Archers stop whining until they fix it.

Once it's fixed, the minimum prof you will need is 78(6PD). With 6 athletics, you'd need 144 prof. PERFECTLY FINE FOR YOU!

Now just wait until they fix the damn thing so you aren't losing like 200 wpf cause of a bug.


And by perfectly fine you mean 0 effective wpf with a crosshair the size of the moon? That is 144 less wpf then what you actually have, and 0 is not going to hit anything.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kelden on November 01, 2012, 02:29:18 am
On my 11th gen (not as huge as some but a decent amount), all of which were mostly 2h with a one time sword and board in there and one cav, the last two have been archer and honestly I have no interest in going back.

I've had like 7 or 8 gens of 2hander and I never had a problem with getting shot honestly here not even lying sure it was annoying but I would just try to dodge and get into melee as fast as possible not to mention I would always run high athletics and be able to catch most archers because I wore lighter armor, it's not the reason I ever even switched to archer I just got bored of melee over playing it for such a long time,

I just have no interest in melee anymore and archery allows me to play more of a support role. Do you ever see archers top the scoreboard? Rarely and if they do props to them or any other class that does, but I can guarantee archers are not scoreboard kings compared to other classes, we are a support class, I help out the infantry line and try to take out cavalry when I can, and when I'm not doing that it's because I'm busy dieing to the next paragraph.

I already die to other ranged and cavalry in a fight or lightly armored fast athletic infantry who I can't kite so what gives (try playing an archer, and believe me when your team starts dieing kiting does not work). Are you trying to tell me that the sword and board or heavy armored infantry are suppost to catch up to me? That I can't run faster then them and if I do I can't shoot as accurate? This is crazy and I don't post much on these forums even after 11 gens and never have I complained about archers in all my time being melee, these changes just can't sit with me I already have a ton of things that can kill me in a fight already and archers don't regularly top scoreboards and I'm not going to rage back to melee because I simply just don't feel like playing it anymore and I'm not going to let something like this force me to respec when I really want to be an archer, but playing an archer like this or anything remotely close to the system that sounds like it needs to be implemented won't work for me either because I think its ludicrous. So I guess i'll just have to be taking a long break because I have absolutely no incentive to play (sigh).

-Honest opinion from a player who played approx ~80% melee gens and ~20% archer.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 01, 2012, 02:54:13 am

And by perfectly fine you mean 0 effective wpf with a crosshair the size of the moon? That is 144 less wpf then what you actually have, and 0 is not going to hit anything.

We are arguing the mechanics of it. Lets wait and see how it is before stating anything. but at 21/18 or 18/18 or 18/21 you run perfectly fine builds. You have more than enough wpf to fight  with bow at these levels. Hybrids aren't nerfed(144 is enough for 100 or so side weapon wpf) but they aren't nearly as strong as they would be currently. Str gets a buff as PD requirement is lowered, so standing and shooting high damage arrows is better than running away shooting. Means Melee can kill you...if they don't die from your 2 arrows.

...or so it should be, if the patch goes as it should. Gotta wait and see before i make any changes or otherwise to the above statement. I think it'll be fine for pure archers(str or agi) as long as they aren't super athletic stackings.(7 at most)

Admittedly, I'm not much of an archer. I just can't handle it. Probably cause I've been playing xbow so long that archery is to twitchy for me. But I've played enough to know mechanics of archery, so I don't think it'll be as bad as you fella's think.

(I stopped min maxing 1 class cause of changes. I have 3 playable classes I can choose from at anytime. 6 if I add the horse. How many of you can do that?!)

also nice fallen -1's on all archer nerf posts. Pretty coordinated to convince everyone they're wrong and you are right. Arguing over the changes(as they are) is incorrect, wait until the new system and lets see how it goes before people start bitching.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 01, 2012, 03:06:01 am
also nice fallen -1's on all archer nerf posts. Pretty coordinated to convince everyone they're wrong and you are right.
We have over one hundred members, stop bitching that a couple of them are -1ing you and blaming it on all of us. It's not coordination, it is an extremely small selection of random personal opinions.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Loki on November 01, 2012, 03:33:30 am
It's death by a 1000 cuts for archery, every patch brings a new nerf.  If you don't want archery in the game, just take it out already.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: rufio on November 01, 2012, 04:10:57 am
i played with 10 pd build hornbow 0 ath, i must say this far its pretty unrewarding.. yes even i rufio the qqer majoris of archery says this might be a bad step in crpg. i pretty much think for game  ballance il go with our straw hatted hero, and say just make bows unrealisticly heavy. and keep the rest as it was...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: MrShine on November 01, 2012, 04:55:48 am
Wait, I'm getting a vision from the future!

...archery change nerfs athletics...encourages heavier str archers...
...players will forget archer accuracy & movement were nerfed...will only notice taking lots of damage...
...more crying will ensure... rage posts about getting 2 shot....calls to nerf archery damage...

You can take that to the fucking bank.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Arjay on November 01, 2012, 05:33:48 am
Archery OP, nerf archery!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Miracle on November 01, 2012, 05:52:52 am
SHINE FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: San on November 01, 2012, 06:34:59 am
From this formula:
[19:49] <@Shik> new: (15*PD - 1.5^PD)


It seems that 8PD will maximize effectiveness. 9 PD is only slightly better (both around 92-96), and 8 will help get you more WM, etc.
24/15 seems pretty nice, 24/18 for high levels. I need someone else to confirm whether 15 agi builds are viable on horse. If so, one can invest in riding and horse archery instead of athletics. It will be interesting to see how much damage we take with unbugged archery.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: oguzergin on November 01, 2012, 07:17:45 am
That formula (15PD-1.5^PD instead of 14*PD) also reduced our damage. You take out both our wpf and damage rate. I can't understand the reason. We are not the most killers in a game or with the most score. If you want to nerf something, nerf 2h.

Do the same to melee people: iron flesh and/or power strike shall reduce wpf. Also use the same kind of formula to nerf melee hits.

Currently it makes no sense to play crpg as an archer. This kiting whining is total nonsense. I could never outrun a 2h guy in this game ever with my 8 ath (and I'm level 33). In order to kite, I have to run, turn back and shoot in a small time period. The chaser should be too haeavily armored to not to catch me. And in that case, my arrows can't do shit to that armor anyway.

Especially when a guy with shield moves directly towards an archer, the poor archer has nothing to do but to run and hope that he has melee comrades around to save his ass. Now you say, anyone with a shield should be able to kill any archer he sees fit.

So much hatred for archers from devs make me feel like stop playing. What you have done is not rational; we are here to have fun and as I saw it everyone was having fun (including the melee) before you came and screwed us. Just because you are the dev team, you can just come and say "let's try this formula and see what happens". We spent days and months in this mod. We deserve more respect than this.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adalwulf on November 01, 2012, 07:20:42 am
i played with 10 pd build hornbow 0 ath, i must say this far its pretty unrewarding.. yes even i rufio the qqer majoris of archery says this might be a bad step in crpg. i pretty much think for game  ballance il go with our straw hatted hero, and say just make bows unrealisticly heavy. and keep the rest as it was...

Even QQfio the window cleaner agrees...and I agree with tenne on this one. if you want us to stop kitting just make it weight more since we will be forced into a melee confrontation. My lvl 33 build will have 6 PS once I get to lvl 34....I was going to go into melee more but you've just obliterated my build.... 70,604,525 exp and only 10,268,615 to go  :cry:

We spent days and months in this mod.


Try over 2 years.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Havoco on November 01, 2012, 07:31:41 am
Soo, how much does ath reduce wpf per point?

Nvm got it.



Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: JasonPastman on November 01, 2012, 08:47:42 am
Nice so instead on archers spamming now they two shot...

How about we play a melee game...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: peter_afca7 on November 01, 2012, 09:26:37 am
if you consider respec that would be retarded for all the guys that bought a respec and you must give everyone a free respec other wise it is not fair
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: peter_afca7 on November 01, 2012, 09:28:05 am
It's death by a 1000 cuts for archery, every patch brings a new nerf.  If you don't want archery in the game, just take it out already.
i hope they will  8-)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Havoco on November 01, 2012, 09:31:14 am
What will I dOoooOoooOooo, for an archer nerf. Dumdumdumm
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: AluminumMonster on November 01, 2012, 09:46:21 am
Wait, I'm getting a vision from the future!

...archery change nerfs athletics...encourages heavier str archers...
...players will forget archer accuracy & movement were nerfed...will only notice taking lots of damage...
...more crying will ensure... rage posts about getting 2 shot....calls to nerf archery damage...

You can take that to the fucking bank.
Nice so instead on archers spamming now they two shot...

How about we play a melee game...

LOL???
how about the devs quit sucking the melee cock and leave archers the way they were
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: JasonPastman on November 01, 2012, 10:57:32 am
LOL???
how about the devs quit sucking the melee cock and leave archers the way they were

How about the devs make range as challenging as melee.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Vodner on November 01, 2012, 11:04:19 am
I've been goofing around with a 27/12 bow/melee hybrid, and I really enjoy it. I'm actually able to hit people (sometimes not even teammates!), and I have enough PS to defend myself from a single opponent (or two if they goof up). I feel that this is how archers should be - good at ranged, passable in melee, unable to kite.

This isn't really a nerf to archery as a whole; strength archery is vastly better than it was previously. This is also the first time that unloomed archery has been even remotely useful. I still really think that a free respec should be given to anybody with PD in their build, though.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Quentry on November 01, 2012, 11:24:31 am
if you consider respec that would be retarded for all the guys that bought a respec and you must give everyone a free respec other wise it is not fair
+1
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BattalGazi on November 01, 2012, 11:36:28 am
[19:50] <@Shik> new as in current
[19:50] <@Shik> you lose 10 wpf per HA point and also lose an HA point
[19:50] <@Shik> so 4 HA is actually 3
[19:50] <@Shik> and also -40 wpf

Eat my horse's shit

[19:51] <@Shik> anything is subject to change ofc
[19:51] <@Shik> nothing is final


Still ... Eat it !
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Overdriven on November 01, 2012, 12:08:46 pm
 :|
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cup1d on November 01, 2012, 12:22:10 pm
this system will just encourage builds like this:

Level 34 (71 139 224 xp)

Strength: 30
Agility: 15
Hit points: 71
Skills to attributes: 12
Ironflesh: 3
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 0
Riding: 5
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 10
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 153
Crossbow: 1
Throwing: 1

It's not a true horsearcher. It's just mobile antiinfantry platform. And no - you do not need any HA point if your horse stand still. And yes - even on a sumpter horse you'll be faster than on foot with 12 athletics. All you need is 2 riding to be mobile.

Sorry guys, new system is crap.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Sagar on November 01, 2012, 12:32:14 pm
Think about next step of archers nerfing. Higher riding - reduce wpf.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cup1d on November 01, 2012, 12:35:17 pm
Think about next step of archers nerfing. Higher riding - reduce wpf.

As I said before - 2 riding is enough to be faster than any infantry character.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Sagar on November 01, 2012, 12:37:54 pm
Lets just wait to see final words of dev team. I'm sure there will be more changes these days. 
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cris on November 01, 2012, 12:38:34 pm
From that HA information I just see that sacrificing PD for higher HA means even less damage and still crappy accuracy due to -1 HA points anyway....Oh, and we'll suck on foot too if the -wpp penalty carries off the horse. Thanks...

I understand the need to not make HA overly attractive, but the -HA point is a bit too much, regardless of it being like that pre/post patch
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on November 01, 2012, 12:53:16 pm
I can see lots of archers 1 or 2 shotting everything in the near future in my crystal ball. They are going to be less irritating, but certainly more powerful than before, and will have a greater influence on the outcome of rounds.

Now is the time to make the heaviest (as in, the turn-you-into-an-anemic-turtle) plate armors resistant to arrows, to introduce a tradeoff against medium weight armors, which are pretty much the nobrainer minmaxing choice of the moment. That would require a lot of fiddling with the engine afaik, if possible at all with the current WSE, but would make the game a lot more realistic as well as increasing variety by making equipment that is currently weak in melee stronger against archers (and maybe throwers ?).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on November 01, 2012, 01:31:03 pm
Does ath effect wm across the board? Or just with ranged? Cause being a ninja would suck right now if so.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 01, 2012, 01:31:43 pm
Does ath effect wm across the board? Or just with ranged? Cause being a ninja would suck right now if so.

Only archery.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on November 01, 2012, 01:47:12 pm
Arbalest op. No reduction in wpf, no skill requirements, can be effective in melee. Fix it someone, buff archers.

Thats the problem with balancing, too much nerfing, not enough buffing.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Gristle on November 01, 2012, 02:44:07 pm
I don't like it when ANYONE outruns me, so please add this WPF nerf to all classes. That would at least be fair. I dare anyone to make an argument against a blanket ATH nerf that wouldn't also work as an argument against nerfing just bow WPF.

I don't even use a bow and I think this is retarded.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Thedric on November 01, 2012, 02:58:03 pm
I like it, at least now archers will be forced to stay with the main group. No more assassin-archers running off on their own, killing shielders 1 on 1.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2012, 03:56:34 pm
Dumbest.  Shit.  Ever.  And there's been a lot of dumb-ass nerfs in c-rpg. 

Coming from someone who's bane is archers, it should tell you something about the "fix".

People talk about "kiting" like it's a problem.  The problem is the people chasing the kiting archers, the people who are running around by themselves and not fighting with their teammates.  These people are the problem, not a class doing what it's supposed to do.  Don't like kiting archers?  Don't go running after them.

That's like telling horseman are a problem because after they make a charge, they run out of melee reach and do it all over again.

So glad Chivalry came out, maybe you'll see me in strat battles.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Teeth on November 01, 2012, 04:04:18 pm
Arbalest op. No reduction in wpf, no skill requirements, can be effective in melee. Fix it someone, buff archers.

Thats the problem with balancing, too much nerfing, not enough buffing.
Archers do 30-50% damage to me and arbalests do 50-60%, I think archers easily have triple fire rate.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Keshian on November 01, 2012, 04:16:20 pm
aLSO ATHLETICS PLAYS A LARGE PART IN ARCHER DUELS AND PROPERLY DODGING ENEMY ARROWS.  tHIS BASICALLY MAKES ALLA RCHERS AN EASY STANDING TARGET FOR XBOWERS FOR NO REASOON EVEN WHEN NOT SHOOTING.  fuck capslock!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 01, 2012, 04:17:46 pm
Drop atl when you equip a bow?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BattalGazi on November 01, 2012, 04:22:37 pm
"Yea, let's take away the natural advantages of a class and make it only disadvantageous, because fuck that class", this is the approach of nearly all whiners in this community and their fellow developer friends I guess. What the hell does, "you can shoot good when your horse is not moving" suppose to mean? This is a Horse Archer ffs, it is supposed to shoot while moving !

You know what, strategus is already going down because of the lack of dev's attention to real problems such as multi-accounting, and now they are screwing up all fixed solid mechanics in crpg, ... donkey crew is doing a real good job, really ...

I hope you have fun with new players who just have heard about this mod, because old ones are quitting one by one ...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Apsod on November 01, 2012, 04:44:15 pm
Good luck, but... ehm, have you ever seen free respec in cRPG? I'm not an archer but partial free respec - possibility to remove skill points from ATH and put them somewhere else - would be fair move  :rolleyes:
There was a free respec once. They gave everyone a free respec in the huge patch that added upkeep. Though they will probably never give out another one :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Cris on November 01, 2012, 05:04:50 pm
There was a free respec once. They gave everyone a free respec in the huge patch that added upkeep. Though they will probably never give out another one :P

Upkeep wasn't the reason. In that patch the massively reduced levels. People like me in the low 40s ended up being high 20s after the patch. More than a respect it was a reset.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 01, 2012, 05:28:16 pm
Tried out some alternate builds and I am liking this new patch as an archer, now.  Can't kite anymore but can actually do some damage which is nice.  Having to shoot someone 3 to 4 times to kill them was kind of BS since draw speeds are so slow in this mod.  With the new builds now it kind of actually feels a bit like native, where archers are a very serious threat but can't really kite.   I just hope they leave archery alone for a while since it sucks having to relearn the class and come up with a different build everytime it gets messed with which is a lot. 
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2012, 05:30:59 pm
Give respec for athletic only so I can put those points in riding.

You'd want some horse archery as well however. 

Really sad seeing all the whining on the forums for a month and knowing the next thing the dev's are gonna nerf.  Not because the whiners have a valid reason for their whine, it's just to appease the masses and put some grease on that squeaky wheel.

Give players the ability to work together as teammates (maybe a different game mode is needed), and all the previous whine about archers goes away.  Maybe some popups when you join a server that say "press P to join a battalion, press and hold F1 to move the flag for the battalion".  Maybe include "teamwork is encouraged to overcome obstacles in this game, not every class you encounter will be easily defeated.  They have strengths and weaknesses with their class, just as you do with yours, keep this in mind when fighting with your teammates".

Or here's a genius solution, fix your team balance to do a better job balancing classes evenly to each team.

Sure it's annoying to die to someone before you even have a chance to fight them, but that's part of the game.  Their strength just dominated your weakness. Every class and playstyle  has strengths and weaknesses.  If you minimize exposing your weaknesses to an enemies' strengths, you should be alright. 

There was nothing wrong with archery pre-patch that required making athletics lower their WPF in archery.  And if you really felt it was justified in making that change, you should allow people a free respec because you fucked over people who use archery and athletics, who now can't properly use their bow. 

Good job, that was very well thought out.  And I still contend that pre-patch, nothing was so ridiculous or overpowered that it required a nerf to tame it.  Nothing.  Bring your arguments to me and I'll shut them down every time with what to do tactically in that situation.  Generally the right answer boils down to "fight with teammates who compliment your weaknesses".  If someone is whining about archers, then they should have done a better job protecting their own ranged classes who can reach out and touch the enemy archers. 

The classes were very well balanced pre-patch.  I'm sure there were many people in the middle ages who felt it was "overpowered" to be able to hit someone from a distance before they can hit you.  You know what smart armies did?  They brought their own archers, or they brought shields, or they stopped standing around on the open field without any terrain to protect them.  They overcame the solution without whining about how "OP" something was, which is exactly what players need to do in game, but the dev's keep babying them instead of some harsh reality checks.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Mwahahaha on November 01, 2012, 05:39:03 pm
Give respec for athletic only so I can put those points in riding.

no, we need  to retrieve an archery like 1 week ago. That was so good balanced. at least I agree about damage nerf, but about athl it's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 01, 2012, 06:03:40 pm
qq
looks like someone respecced to a kiting archer just before the patch hit

also this patch was a giant buff to archery, stop whining
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 01, 2012, 06:24:35 pm
looks like someone respecced to a kiting archer just before the patch hit

also this patch was a giant buff to archery, stop whining

Nope, I'm a 12th gen cav/polearm/1h/shield at level 32 currently.  I hate archers as much as the next guy both on my horse and on foot.  The difference is that I don't bitch and complain to the dev's to fix my own stupidity.  I try not to put myself in a situation where there's enemy archers on all sides, and I'm their only target.

Aww how cute, I'm a massive shit poster now.  How is it a shit post to suggest that instead of listening to the players whine, you tell them to learn how to adapt to conditions on the battlefield?  If you really think athletics lowering WPF for archery is the solution (which I wont' say is a good or bad thing) at least let them respec.  Or at least let the people over 31 respec for free...seems just as bad as the horse nerf from a while back (moved riding difficulty from 4 to 6 on courser).  It was a good move to do, but it really fucked over a lot of horseman over level 31 who never wanted to retire again.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: AluminumMonster on November 01, 2012, 07:07:07 pm
How about the devs make range as challenging as melee.

yes, cuz archers top the charts and get valor all day. hop off the ambien and wake up bra
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 01, 2012, 07:08:37 pm
looks like someone respecced to a kiting archer just before the patch hit

also this patch was a giant buff to archery, stop whining

The patch did indeed buff archery damage which is an okay trade off for loss of athletics.  I just worry that they will keep messing with things and nerf archery damage now, since archery gets a lot of attention.  Having to retire/respec is pretty annoying but has been a part of cRPG.  It will just suck really bad if after this patch they decide to change things again after people have already respecced/retired so that they have to respec/retire yet again...  Shit gets old ya know. 
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Apsod on November 01, 2012, 07:11:21 pm
Upkeep wasn't the reason. In that patch the massively reduced levels. People like me in the low 40s ended up being high 20s after the patch. More than a respect it was a reset.
I did not say that upkeep was the reason. I just said that we got a respec in that patch :wink:
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 01, 2012, 07:12:05 pm
nobody wants my horn bow now! fuck this
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: justme on November 01, 2012, 07:12:52 pm
yes , archery is bugged, they still cant miss me, and im dying from headshoot every 3rd round
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 01, 2012, 07:14:13 pm
yes , archery is bugged, they still cant miss me, and im dying from headshoot every 3rd round
you guys want remove archery :lol: ofc you will be shooted by archers
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on November 01, 2012, 07:53:58 pm
You'd want some horse archery as well however. 

Really sad seeing all the whining on the forums for a month and knowing the next thing the dev's are gonna nerf.  Not because the whiners have a valid reason for their whine, it's just to appease the masses and put some grease on that squeaky wheel.

Give players the ability to work together as teammates (maybe a different game mode is needed), and all the previous whine about archers goes away.  Maybe some popups when you join a server that say "press P to join a battalion, press and hold F1 to move the flag for the battalion".  Maybe include "teamwork is encouraged to overcome obstacles in this game, not every class you encounter will be easily defeated.  They have strengths and weaknesses with their class, just as you do with yours, keep this in mind when fighting with your teammates".

Or here's a genius solution, fix your team balance to do a better job balancing classes evenly to each team.

Sure it's annoying to die to someone before you even have a chance to fight them, but that's part of the game.  Their strength just dominated your weakness. Every class and playstyle  has strengths and weaknesses.  If you minimize exposing your weaknesses to an enemies' strengths, you should be alright. 

There was nothing wrong with archery pre-patch that required making athletics lower their WPF in archery.  And if you really felt it was justified in making that change, you should allow people a free respec because you fucked over people who use archery and athletics, who now can't properly use their bow. 

Good job, that was very well thought out.  And I still contend that pre-patch, nothing was so ridiculous or overpowered that it required a nerf to tame it.  Nothing.  Bring your arguments to me and I'll shut them down every time with what to do tactically in that situation.  Generally the right answer boils down to "fight with teammates who compliment your weaknesses".  If someone is whining about archers, then they should have done a better job protecting their own ranged classes who can reach out and touch the enemy archers. 

The classes were very well balanced pre-patch.  I'm sure there were many people in the middle ages who felt it was "overpowered" to be able to hit someone from a distance before they can hit you.  You know what smart armies did?  They brought their own archers, or they brought shields, or they stopped standing around on the open field without any terrain to protect them.  They overcame the solution without whining about how "OP" something was, which is exactly what players need to do in game, but the dev's keep babying them instead of some harsh reality checks.

See crazycraka, now is the moment your logic fails. You always seem to be supporting not changing the game. But when the game changes, what are you going to support ?

If you support how it was before the change, then you are obviously supporting change, because going back to the old situation would be a change in itself.

If you support the new situation, then you have contradicting opinions with what you said a week ago, and your opinion means nothing whatsoever because it depends only on the current situation and does not try to reach an ideal balance.



If we get another patch in one month, what will you do ? Say this current patch you are bitching about now was the best patch ever ?


Mindfuck.


Our current balance is the result of years of balance tweaking. One particular patch is not more relevant than any other, especially considering the evolving metagame and the different needs of a different time.

Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: a_bear_irl on November 01, 2012, 08:28:51 pm
Nope, I'm a 12th gen cav/polearm/1h/shield at level 32 currently.  I hate archers as much as the next guy both on my horse and on foot.  The difference is that I don't bitch and complain to the dev's to fix my own stupidity.  I try not to put myself in a situation where there's enemy archers on all sides, and I'm their only target.

Aww how cute, I'm a massive shit poster now.  How is it a shit post to suggest that instead of listening to the players whine, you tell them to learn how to adapt to conditions on the battlefield?  If you really think athletics lowering WPF for archery is the solution (which I wont' say is a good or bad thing) at least let them respec.  Or at least let the people over 31 respec for free...seems just as bad as the horse nerf from a while back (moved riding difficulty from 4 to 6 on courser).  It was a good move to do, but it really fucked over a lot of horseman over level 31 who never wanted to retire again.

you're a moron, dude. the problem was never archer damage or accuracy, the problem was kiting. if you've never seen an archer kite people around then you haven't played in the past 3+ months.

your idea of game balance revolves around telling people to respec specifically to counter broken game mechanics, (if you dont like getting kited spec cav hyuk hyuk hyuk) and you're generally a bad poster. stop posting.

edit: also, i dont even see how you can argue against this change. it's a HUGE buff to the right kind of archery, and a big nerf to the wrong kinds.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 01, 2012, 08:41:37 pm
i just tried a 13 pd stf char, it's awesome. i can keep aim close for 3 sec and people die with 2 arrows!
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: TurmoilTom on November 01, 2012, 08:44:09 pm
you're a moron, dude. the problem was never archer damage or accuracy, the problem was kiting. if you've never seen an archer kite people around then you haven't played in the past 3+ months.

Actually, Marathon and I have already concluded that Huseby has never actually played this game and that he only posts on the forums.

I'm convinced now that you don't play this game, only post on the forums.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Boss_Awesome on November 01, 2012, 08:45:06 pm

edit: also, i dont even see how you can argue against this change. it's a HUGE buff to the right kind of archery, and a big nerf to the wrong kinds.

I don't see why we can't have both kinds of archery.  It's not like kiting archers were broken, they still died all the time.  Very few archers ever topped the score board and master of the field kept the kiters from being able to just run forever.  With the current system all we get are the strength archers, which is pretty cool, but it sucks that archers can only ever have 1 effective build.  Some change is good, but changing someone's class often and in major ways gets old.  I really just want them to figure out what they are going to do with archery and stick with it.  I'd prefer having both strength and agility builds available.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 01, 2012, 09:15:16 pm
Aww how cute, I'm a massive shit poster now.


Donkey Dammit what do I have to do to increase my title =\
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: BattalGazi on November 01, 2012, 09:23:53 pm
I believe heavy armored 2 handers are ruling this game; every other class should be nerfed so that they can get more kills. I truly believe this. Every nerf in this game has something to help 2handers generally ( except for some really few changes done which nerfed 2 handers, which was the end of the mod for them ... )

This is an overview of the reasons for patches so far , from the perspective of a heavy 2 hander:

- 1 handers are too fast, they spam us, we can't block :( : NERF 1HANDERS
- some knockdown weapons actually knock us down, we can't block :( : NERF KNOCKDOWN WEAPONS
- we got caught by lancers in the open, they couch us, we can't block :( : INCREASE CAV UPKEEP, NERF LANCING-COUCHING
- archers everywhere, they have sacrificed their IF and PS to ATH, they outrun us and shoot us, we can't block :( : NERF ARCHERY
- HA's have horses and they are ranged, double the trouble, we can't block :( : INCREASE CAV UPKEEP, NERF HA
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Arrowblood on November 01, 2012, 09:28:45 pm
i just tried a 13 pd stf char, it's awesome. i can keep aim close for 3 sec and people die with 2 arrows!
Only because the Hero told the secret.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Miley on November 01, 2012, 10:12:56 pm
I thought archery was fine prior to this patch (at least on NA).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Havoco on November 01, 2012, 10:13:52 pm

Donkey Dammit what do I have to do to increase my title =\

Declare war on all EU, I'm sure you'll get "massive naivety" after that.  :lol: :lol:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Apsod on November 01, 2012, 10:25:55 pm
i just tried a 13 pd stf char, it's awesome. i can keep aim close for 3 sec and people die with 2 arrows!
Afaik PD does not do more damage when it is higher than 4 above the bows difficulty. If that has not been changed then 13 PD is useless.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kunio on November 01, 2012, 11:01:46 pm
Afaik PD does not do more damage when it is higher than 4 above the bows difficulty. If that has not been changed then 13 PD is useless.

...
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Apsod on November 01, 2012, 11:35:59 pm
13 PD deals same damage like 10 PD with a longbow but your arrows going faster and further + you can aim better.
Still, I think that some wpf or maybe PS/IF would be better.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 02, 2012, 02:37:15 am
Quote from: Shik
<Shik> ath nerf reverted for next patch

However I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase to the weight of arrows shortly following though. It fixes the problem and I believe it's a reasonable compromise for not murdering our builds! :)

Thank you Shik, we'll hold you to your word, even if "The Italian" finds out.

A bit of behind the scenes as well:

Quote from: Meow
<Meow> we call him the italion stallion
<Meow> or il duce
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Vodner on November 02, 2012, 03:01:27 am
Still, I think that some wpf or maybe PS/IF would be better.
With a 36/3 build, you can have near-laser beam accurate arrows, 12 PD, 9 PS, 1 ATH, and 1 WM (all in archery). It's pretty funny to pull out your hammer against somebody trying to facehug you, then 2-shot them. It's not worth going any lower PD than that (until it gets fixed).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 02, 2012, 03:56:41 am
Afaik PD does not do more damage when it is higher than 4 above the bows difficulty. If that has not been changed then 13 PD is useless.
you cannot put point in atl, more pd is more accurate then wpf now :mrgreen: also without atl hybrid builds is useless so that is the best :mrgreen:

Only because the Hero told the secret.
my hero <3
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Joker86 on November 02, 2012, 08:24:53 am
However I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase to the weight of arrows shortly following though. It fixes the problem and I believe it's a reasonable compromise for not murdering our builds!

If this is true, then those are great news! Shows a good amount of reasonability of the devs.

 :D
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Adalwulf on November 02, 2012, 09:16:19 am
Can they at least revert the archery nerf till they come to a decision . I mean come on...many of us would like to play our classes :O
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Juhanius on November 02, 2012, 10:20:40 am
Why not respec all characters for free. Everyone would have opportunity to make changes. IS it too much work? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Haboe on November 02, 2012, 10:24:59 am
Why not respec all characters for free. Everyone would have opportunity to make changes. IS it too much work? :rolleyes:

What about all the players that paid like 2 mil to buy the training from the auction?
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Juhanius on November 02, 2012, 10:45:20 am
What about all the players that paid like 2 mil to buy the training from the auction?
...people who have money to buy training must be the 1% or lotto winners. Bad day for them.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Kafein on November 02, 2012, 10:56:03 am
Why not respec all characters for free. Everyone would have opportunity to make changes. IS it too much work? :rolleyes:

Sorry, I wanted that too when my bec transformed into a short version of a pick. I wanted that too when my heavy lance lost 4p on thrust and like 20 speed. I wanted that too when my favorite horse got it's riding requirement increased by 2, losing speed and maneuver in the process. I wanted that too when my sword stabs became a suicide button. I wanted that too when people became able to swing and shoot through my shield. I wanted that too when riding stopped giving non-negligible bonuses. I wanted that too when all armors above medium became unacceptable to play with. And I'm sure one could go on like that for any character.


Guess what, a respec never happened for these reasons. And eventually some of these changes were reverted back from the realm of madness (most did not though).
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 02, 2012, 11:05:22 am
Can they at least revert the archery nerf till they come to a decision . I mean come on...many of us would like to play our classes :O

When I wrote:

Quote from: Shik
<Shik> ath nerf reverted for next patch
However I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase to the weight of arrows shortly following though. It fixes the problem and I believe it's a reasonable compromise for not murdering our builds! :)

Thank you Shik, we'll hold you to your word, even if "The Italian" finds out.

A bit of behind the scenes as well:

Quote from: Meow
<Meow> we call him the italion stallion
<Meow> or il duce

I wasn't joking, there is no need to respec or anything else.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 02, 2012, 11:42:30 am
When I wrote:
However I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase to the weight of arrows shortly following though. It fixes the problem and I believe it's a reasonable compromise for not murdering our builds! :)

Thank you Shik, we'll hold you to your word, even if "The Italian" finds out.

A bit of behind the scenes as well:


I wasn't joking, there is no need to respec or anything else.
i respeced to 13pd archer yesterday  :cry:
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Fips on November 02, 2012, 12:08:32 pm
i respeced to 13pd archer yesterday  :cry:

Well, that's just plain stupid.  :P
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 02, 2012, 12:10:59 pm
Well, that's just plain stupid.  :P
yeah but 13pd archery is super accurate
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: oguzergin on November 02, 2012, 12:12:02 pm
Still waiting for the devs to take a step back.

I experimented with some STF characters (killed chadz at DTV to be specific to cope with rage). The archers will be totally stationary with the new settings. If there will be no going back (which I still hope will happen), you must give us a free respec. There is no way I'm respec'ing from 48M exp. It took me ages to get here. I could retire 6 times instead of trying to get a level. Now if I retire you give me just 3 loom points and just 1 generation instead of 6 looms and 6 gens. We are in this bad situation where our loyalty to mod is penalized.

Also, about this kiting whining: most of the time archers are taken out by other archers. If an archer can't move fast he will be an easy target. I don't think this ath nerf will make you happy with my 9 or 10 PD together with +3 MW horbow and +3 bodkins.

Just give me a free respec and I'll call it a deal and move on to POWER drawing directly to your asses.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Fips on November 02, 2012, 12:16:40 pm
yeah but 13pd archery is super accurate
Right now, but that'll change. 13pd-pinpoint 2 shooting everybody were probably not the intention of this patch.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Uumdi on November 02, 2012, 12:28:33 pm
After playing and experiencing how archery is right now, I strongly suggest a revert, or a reworking of what affects archery.  I can't find where the formula was posted originally, but Tears laid it out in another thread:

(click to show/hide)

9 --- 96.556640625
13 Power Draw - 0.3804931640625

I hope this isn't intended.  Tried and true, sure enough a 13 PD archer can fire pin point accurate, with incredible missile speed, and can hold the drawn arrow for 1.5-2 seconds before the reticle begins to waver.  I understand the drawback is that they can't move much.  But look at the 27 strength archer.  Very strength heavy still, Loses the most wpf by an incredible 92 points.  And this is in addition to athletics lowering it further.  There is no reason for any agility at all, as they are forbidden from athletics, and Weaponmaster is rendered entirely useless.

How about just make Power draw strictly buff damage?  *cough* don't crucify me for this, but was kiting really that big a deal?  Agi archers were killable.  Druzhina's low-to-no athletics archers were already a powerhouse, and an inspiration to the playerbase that there was room for archers who didn't want to aggrovate people on the battle servers.  Weaponmaster should be getting some love - archers were the only ones who truly needed it.

If its a bug, and this isn't its intended state, that's good to know.  I was hype about this patch, but I'm already getting a stomach ache from complaining about the archery changes.  Balanced builds should be encouraged.  I was going to do 18/21 hybrid or 18/24 pure archer for strat, but I don't want to touch my main until there's a hotfix.  What's the word on the street?  I already "made the mistake" of getting 3 athletics.  Maybe anything over 3 should begin to affect wpf.  This change is drastic enough to deserve documentation - even in the simplest form.


Wait, I herd they gettn rid of that athletics nerf nex patch

Rad.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Tennenoth on November 02, 2012, 02:03:39 pm
i respeced to 13pd archer yesterday  :cry:

That was mighty silly of you, when people shout "Don't respec straight after the patches", it's because they know changes are bound to happen. I'm not sure I understand why anyone in their right mind would think that it was intentional to make 13 PD super accurate and high damage... It was already said that it was a PD miscalculation which was being changed from 15*PD-1.5^PD to 14*PD-1.4^PD (therefore 13 PD would have a 102.6 wpf reduction).

I can't say much more than that, but with this change I would say that 13PD is very inefficient. 10PD being the maximum useful due to the +4 above bow requirement limit, so your damage increase would be capped at PD*14% so +140% of bow & arrow damage along with however much wpf you can put in. With 13PD after this change you'll be looking at having a reduction to roughly 8.5PD on wpf reduction but you could get more wpf back if you just invested it into agility and weapon master.

Anyway, don't respec straight away, wait a couple of days for things to be sorted out and tweaked, chances are there will be more errors or things that'll be adjusted so don't make the mistake again! :)
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Iymore on November 02, 2012, 02:14:12 pm
That was mighty silly of you, when people shout "Don't respec straight after the patches", it's because they know changes are bound to happen. I'm not sure I understand why anyone in their right mind would think that it was intentional to make 13 PD super accurate and high damage... It was already said that it was a PD miscalculation which was being changed from 15*PD-1.5^PD to 14*PD-1.4^PD (therefore 13 PD would have a 102.6 wpf reduction).

I can't say much more than that, but with this change I would say that 13PD is very inefficient. 10PD being the maximum useful due to the +4 above bow requirement limit, so your damage increase would be capped at PD*14% so +140% of bow & arrow damage along with however much wpf you can put in. With 13PD after this change you'll be looking at having a reduction to roughly 8.5PD on wpf reduction but you could get more wpf back if you just invested it into agility and weapon master.

Anyway, don't respec straight away, wait a couple of days for things to be sorted out and tweaked, chances are there will be more errors or things that'll be adjusted so don't make the mistake again! :)
why they are waiting then? i will respec again and be a xbowman fuck archery
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on November 02, 2012, 03:32:34 pm
Maybe the athletics nerf to WPF of archers IS the right answer, but you should really let people respec if that's the course you want to take.  And if you have any other major gameplay changes to skills/attributes, make them at that time as well.

Moving riding of horses to higher requirements was the right answer, so was removing the lance angle...but to not let people get a free respec who were long time players, who never wanted to retire again (level 32 and above who were stuck with their riding requirement and a loomed horse), was a real dick in the mouth.

Also massively nerfing equipment should automatically allow anyone with looms in that equipment to get them back...I didn't have it, but black armor was one of the  heavier armors for the longest time and then in a ninja patch it's relegated to medium/heavy armor...

I'm not against making the game better and trying out what the dev's believe to be the right course to take c-rpg, but don't alienate your player base at the same time.  Most of the whine about the patch would have been avoided if you let high level players have a free respec (or all players).

Hell making massive changes and then resetting c-rpg would be fine with me, but probably not a lot of the loom/level grinders.
Title: Re: Is archery bugged atm?
Post by: Uumdi on November 02, 2012, 04:10:11 pm
Honestly, let archers get athletics.  Only problem earlier was there was no motivation to go higher than 6 PD, because the penalty was so high.  27/15 archer should be as viable as 18/24, trading damage for speed.  Kiting isn't that big a deal.  You guys really hate loki and aderyn that much?  Just lance or shoot them to death.