No. Agility is just underrated. Although EU side doesn't have this problem like you str stackers on the other side of the sea. Agi is viable.
dumb idea, should insitutue 3rd stat, constitution and link it to HP & Ironflesh, remove free WPF and put it into agi like 25-50 WPF per agi
Every point in powerstrike must reduce effective melee wpf.
You still can have 36\3 12 ps monster, but with 0 wpf only.
Simple and effective
Pretty sure you are wrong here, I play on NA mainly but I get 40ping to EU as i'm from the UK and whenever I go to EU it's the same as NA with only the very best players doing well with AGI builds and all the rest getting scrubbed by high str spammers in heavy armour.no your are wrong.
Allthough it might create some new problems, a similar system as we have now for PD and PT could be made for PS too.
More PS = a bigger penalty to wpf, ultimately making a 12 PS build with no WM have 0 effective wpf.
Every point in powerstrike must reduce effective melee wpf.
You still can have 36\3 12 ps monster, but with 0 wpf only.
Simple and effective
So you want them uberfast agiwhores to hit as hard as the guys who invested to power over speed? No.The damage bonus from wpf is quite minor.
The damage bonus from wpf is quite minor.
I was thinking more speedbonus with 8Athl vs str crutcher with like 3-4ath most and heavy armored.
If there was reduction in PS bonus and the things that OP suggested would have happened, the agiwhores would be fast AND quite hardhitting. At the moment you can choose to be either somewhat slow, but hardhitter, or fast but needing more landed hits to kill someone. Or you can go that MEH way, balanced builds, somewhat good speed, somewhat good damage. This suggested change would put the balance to hell.
Flatten the wpf curve. Str builds should have less wpf than they have now, agi builds should have more wpf than they have now. Being able to get 114 wpf in one class without even having to put any points in WM is just too much.
Agility (read: Athletics, not Weapon Master), is extremely useful. The issue is that the vast majority of the community doesn't seem to have any idea how to properly use it. All too often I see someone invest a ton of points into agility and athletics just to use it for range games and backpeddling.
Lol at str being more viable than agility. Try facing against a agi whore having too much strength getting outreached and stabbed all the time.
Stop chasing
Press 's' key
L2Block
???
Profit
I sure you, health is even more useful. Or you prefer to be agile corpse?
Says the archer. Athletics>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Health.
Stop chasing
Press 's' key
???
Profit
Too much rageball?Nope, just too much melee experience.
Nope, just too much melee experience.
Not everyone follows. When people backpaddle I do it aswell and wait for them to come back. In the end it all comes down to your blocking skills.
And health is definitely not mure useful than being fast and agile. If you're a noob who's charging first in the line then yes it's alot more useful. Having good footwork combined with good situational awareness is more important than anything.
Being slow with alot of health will still make you an easier target for archers.
STR 42
AGI 3
--------
IF 14
PS 14
ATH 1
HP 105
DAM 41P
WPP 125STR 15
AGI 30
--------
IF 5
PS 5
ATH 10
WM 9
HP 60
DAM 41P
WPP 187STR 14
AGI 30
--------
IF 4
PS 4
ATH 10
WM 10
HP 57
DAM 41P
WPP 195Target has 50 AR
Build1:
MIN 50
AVG 61
MAX 72
Target has 50 AR
Build2:
MIN 27
AVG 36
MAX 45
Target has 50 AR
Build3:
MIN 24
AVG 33
MAX 42
STR 24
AGI 24
--------
IF 4
PS 8
ATH 8
WM 3
HP 67
DAM 41P
WPP 141Target has 50 AR
Build3:
MIN 33
AVG 43
MAX 53
With enough athletics you'll get to hit the str guy a lot more times than he gets to hit you. Depending a bit on your weapons. Meaning, more chances for making mistakes.
blablablaSeconded
just use the build you like STR or AGI who gives a shit :rolleyes:
.. Wat? Giving yourself more opportunities to hit is different from what I said how?
So I was thinking about how bad agility is in this game and how strength really still dominates for a number of reasons in melee annnnnnnnnnnd I kind of figured the main reason is the damage.
The extra HP helps a lot, but strength builds have a lot of damage, while agility doesn't, makes sense? good.
My proposition:
Increase the base damage of all melee weapons and reduce the damage from powerstrike.
What does this all mean???
The minimum melee damage will be higher, while the max melee damage will be lower.
Thus, builds with lower powerstrike will do more damage, and builds with higher powerstrike will do less.
And in turn... will make agility a bit more viable for all builds, since the extra damage won't be thaaaat significant.
How can we possibly do this???
Increase all melee weapons damage by 32% (equal to PS4)[or 40% for ps5 equiv] and change the damage bonus from powerstrike to 4%.
What do you all think?
Having an opportunity for an accomplishment is far different than achieving that accomplishment.
A college frat party may give you more opportunities to get laid, but it doesn't mean you got laid.
I think the next morning you should have a far better understanding of the difference.
Herp derp derp... random NA pointless balance view whine post derp derp..
Adding a certain amount of wpf per Agi point would be very nice since STR gives hp. And to even it out even more you could decrease the wpf gained per lvl so that agi/WM will be needed more since STR gives a small damage bonus and 1hp per point while agi atm gives nothing.
We are are clearly at ends with this discussion. Only solution is to test run a server where all players have 8 athletics and 180 wpf. Then we can re-evaluate, but I can gaurentee that it will create a lot of rage over such comments;
"I blocked that shit"
"On my screen I was behind you"
"How the hell did you swing through my shield"
"Ghost reach"
"You didn't even swing"
"How did that miss it went right through you"
.............
Sound familiar already?
Well based on the powers of logic, if agility can't be buffed anymore, then strength needs to be adjusted.
From a shielders point of view, agility builds are not viable. Anything less than ps6 is worthless for almost any weapon (with the exception of military picks, but 1 weapon doesn't balance an entire class) and I have many times with my mighty iberian mace hit an unhelmeted character in the head only to watch them survive.
Mighty Iberian mace, PS6, shot to the head and survive.
Maybe for 2h weapons the damage is viable with 5 powerstrike, but like I said before for shielders the only viable builds are either strength heavy, balanced, and all the builds in between. With the changes to the heirlooms, the amount of damage added before made a 15st-21agi shielder build viable, now its not. Even with ps6 and mighty iberian or my mw italian against a strength build it takes between 4-8 hits to kill them, when it only requires 1-2 from them. No matter how EZ mode blocking is with a shield, its still really hard to hit someone 4-8x more then they hit you, with faster/longer reaching weapons.
If increasing damage on lower amounts of PS and decreasing damage on higher PS, it would make agility more appealing, which is exactly what we see here in this thread.
It would be nice to see some items, be they armor or weapons, have both a Strength and Agility requirement. So you can make a lulzy 36/3 build, but it limits your gear choices to less than the most potent ones.
Imho with weapon stun on blocking the game is still rather turn based fighting, and with simple math (takes less hits to kill, and more to die) strength appears to be superior.That seems like a fair tradeoff of how it should be. Strength is slow, can take more damage and if they hit it hurts more. Agi is fast, can avoid taking damage simply because they're agile and can hit much quicker. Don't see the problem.
anyone with less then 8 ath is cannon fodder tbh... atleast on EU dunno how things work in Narnia :lol:
Grab yourself a Huscarl and a steel pick and have yourself a grand 'ole time. I actually find that setup to be pretty lame, which is why I don't use it myself.
Crazy americans and their strength-builds and bec de corbins...
In Eu there are no such "problems". Strength builds are much easier to block due to low speed. Even when using weapons as katana/longsword or staffs...
Sure 2 hits and youre dead. But then just use your footwork to stay out of range when you think you cant block well enough or have very light armor.
I tried out both versions and my personal opinion is that Agility and athletics are superior to pure strength builds assuming both players are equally high skilled.
derp i have NEVER had more than 15 strength (once i went longbow, but i regretted very soon), and i suck, and get nearly 1 kdr, so no, agi is perfectly viable.agi whore
I say they just nerf wpf points on level. Buff wpf points on weapon master.
That is the only thing I think they should do in order to balance it.
Cant chadz make 2 versions of cRPG so that Narnia can have their own balance an EU can keep theirs :?: that way we don't get molested by retarded mainstream builds complaints from Narnia when it comes to EU balance :?:
That's because EU balance doesn't exist,
That's because EU balance doesn't exist, they are months behind the times compared to NA and if you really need the proof look at the last cavalry tournament where EU got destroyed utterly by all the NA players.
I don't know why you even need to flex your EU peen on this thread when its completely irrelevant. Spend a bit of time in "Narnia" if you want to see what a group of strength builds can do, you might just see its not some fantasy after all.
I won't even bother making an argument out of this. When you're sober tomorrow you'll see how wrong you are. :lol:
That's because EU balance doesn't exist, they are months behind the times compared to NA and if you really need the proof look at the last cavalry tournament where EU got destroyed utterly by all the NA players.
I don't know why you even need to flex your EU peen on this thread when its completely irrelevant. Spend a bit of time in "Narnia" if you want to see what a group of strength builds can do, you might just see its not some fantasy after all.
If all you're doing is a series of 1v1's of course higher athletics is an advantage. I don't know how you guys do it over in EU, but in NA we don't take turns fighting each other.
A direct comparison is pointless. All im saying is the best NA players seemed to dominate more when I was there than the best EU players did. I wont start an e-peen war by naming names.
But... that's exactly what athletics is used for. You can never be ganked if you have enough. You can make every fight 1v1. If you don't have 7+ athletics, people can gank you and surround you.
But... that's exactly what athletics is used for. You can never be ganked if you have enough. You can make every fight 1v1. If you don't have 7+ athletics, people can gank you and surround you.
What is this AUS you speak of?
That's because EU balance doesn't exist, they are months behind the times compared to NA and if you really need the proof look at the last cavalry tournament where EU got destroyed utterly by all the NA players.LOL. You say NA>EU because you won a CAVALRY tournament? Seriously?
I don't know why you even need to flex your EU peen on this thread when its completely irrelevant. Spend a bit of time in "Narnia" if you want to see what a group of strength builds can do, you might just see its not some fantasy after all.
.. That would make sense given your hypothesis that the average EU player is better than the average NA player ..
maybe its just cause i get 30-40ping on EU and 100+ ping on NA but whenever i do melee on EU i find 95% of the players are pretty bad (e.g i went 18-2 as melee yesterday on eu1) compared to the melee on NA.
and yes i know 18-2 isnt a good score im not trying to brag i think im pretty average melee at best which is why i think EU melee players are bad if they cant beat me.
oh my god there is no wayEUAustralia is better than NANAEU is the best at the game andEUAustralia is just saying they're better because they're the worst at the game and want to hide the fact that they're the worst at the game if you don't believe me just look atmyPK scores
BTW EU > NA any day. You NA just jelly because you can't use the crpg calculator and make pure str builds so you don't need to calculate anything.
Yeah, until we can get a massive LAN party going on where we get everyone in the same place geographically, there's no good way to qualify the "best" players of each area in comparison.
I'm actually surprised more EU builds aren't strength heavy.
I prefer to have higher athletics, but the benefits for stacking strength do outweigh the benefits for stacking agi.If strength was so great everybody would be that. Which they aren't. 1v1 they are dead 1vsMore they are certainly dead as they will be beaten like a legless fish on land. They are basically support roles and mainly good when OTHERS are around to protect them from being overrun.
If strength was so great everybody would be that. Which they aren't. 1v1 they are dead 1vsMore they are certainly dead as they will be beaten like a legless fish on land. They are basically support roles and mainly good when OTHERS are around to protect them from being overrun.
Even 30/9 is a pretty effective build, you can get by with 3 ath if you play smart.An agi build can use a blunt or pierce weapon if they play smart. Which it seems some don't want to have to do. 'oh my katana/sword can't cut down this strength guy in 3 hits!!, OP strength builds!'
Anything less than ps6 is worthless for almost any weapon (with the exception of military picks, but 1 weapon doesn't balance an entire class) and I have many times with my mighty iberian mace hit an unhelmeted character in the head only to watch them survive.
Mighty Iberian mace, PS6, shot to the head and survive.
An agi build can use a blunt or pierce weapon if they play smart. Which it seems some don't want to have to do.
I am going for a ps8 build now, and currently I have 7 and I hit an unhelmeted strength build in the head again today and it didn't kill.12 PS master race here. You're all just jealous of my purple lady headcloth letting me survive 2 headswings, followed by me 1shotting everything that isn't a strength build.
I get 1 shotted all the time in the head with cut weapons even and I have a decent helmet.
I am going for a ps8 build now, and currently I have 7 and I hit an unhelmeted strength build in the head again today and it didn't kill.
I get 1 shotted all the time in the head with cut weapons even and I have a decent helmet.
Well, I could trade my loomed gear for lordy Milanese full set, 2 mil of gold and a MW Flamberge. Could play for 6 months like that with some occasional Siege low gear farming. With my AGI build I would kill twice as much. There's a reason why I don't do it, same reason why I don't use blunt or pierce 2H weapons. Some people care about style...I care about style too which is why when I use what I like stats and looks wise I consider that I may not be able to be the best at everything. Also the build I choose will not be the best at everything. It's called compromise. BTW swords have a pierce stab which is very useful so it's not like agi sword user have NO options (in addition to being able to avoid a fight). If strength builds bothered me how it seems to bother some of you I would probably keep a nice weapon specifically to better deal with them whenever there seemed to be a significant amount on a server that was owning my team.
But the balance should not be agi can 1 hit strength user in the head. It should not be agi can 3 hit strength user with cut damage. It should not be agi can survive 3 hits from high PS build.
Just remove HP bonus from strength.
Strength is more viable in the game, that is true. But why shouldn't it be? It's not that you are forced to choose AGI dominated builds. In my opinion, this would only limit creativity. There is nothing concerning the balance.
No, it's not. If 3-39 was both viable and capable of getting 13 ath, that would be unbalanced. Et cetera - of course some builds are 'less viable' than others.
No, it's not. If 3-39 was both viable and capable of getting 13 ath, that would be unbalanced. Et cetera - of course some builds are 'less viable' than others.
nerf ranged
Both those extreme builds (3-39 and 39-3) shouldn't be viable. They should change the mod in a way where every build that has more than 30 STR or AGI isn't viable at all. At least that's what I think.
The only thing I liked about being a strength build. Have rolled 30/9 twice and 27/12 once and I feel so squishy with 21/18 when facing projectiles. :shock:
Bleh 21/18 with decent armor is still nice, try being 15/24 with 2 IF and armor below Light Kuyak :(
Bleh 21/18 with decent armor is still nice, try being 15/24 with 2 IF and armor below Light Kuyak :(
Yeah... everyone hates variety.
Also at level 36 it's possible to make 42/3 build which has 14 IF/PS and 125 WPP. That build is slow but when he hits you, with lets say Mighty Morningstar, you are dead. That build has 105 HP :shock:
WPP is extremely useful if you are using slow weapons, such as poleaxes, mauls and slow 1 handed swords such as arbian cav sword. It's not worth it if you are using weapons that is already fast
Good, and you think it's fair that people that invest everything into power (and nothing into weapon master) should be awarded free speed/damage bonus from weapon proficiency?
Point is 0 WM people still get 111 WPF, thus a great increase in speed and damage.
there is a big difference between 111 and 156. Try long axe on 111 and make STF with 12/27 max weapon master and you will feel the difference
The difference is anything but great for how much PS (or other skills) you can get with sacrificing WM.
well if you don't gain any wps during levelling no one will be able to have pure STR build which means one of the class in crpg will be gone forever :(click to show/hide)
This will also affect other classes because:(click to show/hide)
As a lancer i must have WPP because on 111 heavy lance will glance alot and won't be able to do much damage and is so slow compare with 156 wpp
Okay let say if all players don't get wpp during levelling, then what happen to the people who don't have Weapon Master? Get free respec? :D
Okay let say if all players don't get wpp during levelling, then what happen to the people who don't have Weapon Master? Get free respec? :D
Those who like the idea of no free weapon proficiency should make a STF character to test out a strength build with 0wpf to see how good or bad it is. If it's still possible to get kills and not be spammed into the ground by everything then ok.
Those who like the idea of no free weapon proficiency should make a STF character to test out a strength build with 0wpf to see how good or bad it is. If it's still possible to get kills and not be spammed into the ground by everything then ok.
What? You're missing the whole point here. The point being brought up is that WM as it currently stands, is a throw-away skill for melee classes. With 0 WM you can still have like 110 in one skill from the what you get at levelling.
So what you're telling me should be go play STF and put 0 WM, and 110 skill into one proficiency and see if you're viable. The answer is a resounding YES, you can play with 110 WPP in a melee skill and be very useful to your team.
0 WPF not 0 WM
it's a great idea for balancing STR with AGI, but if they didn't allow people a free respec shit would be nuts. Since they don't want to give people free respecs, I doubt this idea will ever happen.
Simple solution to address the above mentioned high STR builds - remove free WPF per level.
0 WM - 0 WPF, as it was mentioned a thousand times
The thing I don't like about this is it's another nerf and it hurts a lot of builds, not just str ones.
My main 1-hander build for example:
Strength: 18
Agility: 21
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 4
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 6
Athletics: 7
One Handed: 111
I'd personally rather see an acceleration increase with every point in agility then the loss of free WPF.
dependent upon either weapon proficiency or Power strike would vary depending on the weapon in question. For example;
Weapon Proficiency; All one handed Swords, Lighter Two handed swords [Katana, longsword, Bastard Sword] One handed picks, 'Lighter' spears [Warspear and red tassel spear for example]
Power Strike; Maces, Heavy Twohanded weapons [Mauls, large two handed swords, and large polearms]
I was just thinking and removing free WPF wouldn't have the effect that a lot of you think it would. Instead of hurting strength builds it would hurt ranged and it would REALLY hurt hybrids.
The fact is, WPF does barely anything for damage. If you're looking for damage, you're always better off going PS. Also the swing speed increase isn't huge. If you're using a weapon that's already fast, 100 wpf will give you a swing speed increase of about .06 seconds. Not that big of a deal. Everyone knows you can pick a weapon off the ground and do well with it with 0 WPF. The only time it REALLY hurts you is if you're using something like a Long Maul or a Pike.
Agi could use something, but I don't think removing free WPF is the way to go.
To me, the one really frustrating thing about this game is how often athletics has negative effects applied to it in game: rain, inclines, stairs, indoors. It's shitty that your effectiveness can be dramatically reduced just because of the map. Strength builds don't have that problem. Especially since all of the reductions in this game are percentage-based, it effects people with high athletics more than people with low athletics.
Like it was said many times in this thread, free WPF would be compensated with increasing WPP gain per WM. No hybrid/archer that invested in WM before would suffer.
What if the free WPF you get is based on how much AGI you have and not what level you are?
That way each point of strength = 1hp and each point of AGI gives some wpf.
That way level doesn't give you anything except for points to spend.
this way super strength high PS builds wont be able to do incredible hiltslashes and agi based builds wont glance like crazy.This is exactly the opposite. Agi builds hiltslash a lot better because hiltslashing is based on movement. A strength build cannot hiltslash someone who has good footwork and an agibuild.
This is exactly the opposite. Agi builds hiltslash a lot better because hiltslashing is based on movement. A strength build cannot hiltslash someone who has good footwork and an agibuild.Yeah, I totally don't hiltslash people with 12 PS on Brunchlady all day long without glancing. It ups my base damage so high it rarely if ever glances.
And I don't know what I'm talking about.as always
Yeah, I totally don't hiltslash people with 12 PS on Brunchlady all day long without glancing. It ups my base damage so high it rarely if ever glances.While this is very true, the guy with the high agility has the actual control of it. Other than that, the guy with the AGI is with the high athletics, while the guy with the high STR is dependent. Meaning the guy with the high AGI can benefit more from this, including moving swiftly in the battlefield. This relationship is also a bit similiar to the relationship between a chevalier and a spearmen though.
Besides, strength builds can match movement direction of an agi player, it really isn't a big deal. Direction > speed. The bonus movement speed of an agi build is a double-edged sword. A good player will always use it against them -- or negate it back to square one if both players counter move/swing.
sure this has been said but 2 things make sense to me:
- people get too much WPF without WM or low WM investment
- why does str give HP? What if str gave 0 HP and IF gave 3 or 4 HP instead of 2?
sure this has been said but 2 things make sense to me:
- people get too much WPF without WM or low WM investment
- why does str give HP? What if str gave 0 HP and IF gave 3 or 4 HP instead of 2?
Give 1 HP per AGI but only to players who use 1H without shield :D
And this could be countered by removing extra HP from strength. And maybe increasing damage bonus from WPF.
I just find it odd how one can get free hp from strength and free wpp from leveling up.
Free wpp is not inherently bad, I think it's just in the way in which one can acquire these points where it's weird. Free wpp from agility seems fine to me.
1. Balances out free hp from strength
2. Hybrids unaffected (have higher agility/WM anyways)
3. Weapon swing speeds properly differentiated. 110 may not be much different than 160, but when it is much easier for agi characters to acquire high amounts of wpf, the difference would be notable against str builds.
4. Balanced builds shouldn't be affected too much, the amount of agility that they have would provide around the same or maybe even more for free wpp.
5. Pure strength builds with a tiny bit of agi and 1-2 WM can still acquire enough wpf for a single weapon.
Minuses:
1. WM itself would still be very weak, so seeing medium agi, 0 WM builds may still be prevalent.
Maybe a slight buff to higher levels of WM in addition?