cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Chestaclese on January 22, 2012, 10:47:46 pm

Title: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on January 22, 2012, 10:47:46 pm
It takes too many shots to kill someone with the limited amount of ammo available to me and the accuracy on throwing weapons isn't great enough that I can rely on just aiming for people's heads. I'm not sure what the solution is to fixing it or if there is even one but throwing is no longer a viable option and that makes me sad.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 22, 2012, 10:54:47 pm
Throwing is all this man does, cut him (and me) some slack!

It does feel retarded atm. I put 9 +1 wardarts 3PT into some one with about 50-60 armour and then had to hit him 3 times with my side sword... I mean I should have just hit him with my side sword. Maybe throwing just needs a buff to dmg to compensate for the range patch. A throwing axe/spear/dart is a completely different beast to an arrow.

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square. :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Overdriven on January 22, 2012, 11:10:17 pm
I took 2 javs from a jav cav (added speed bonus as we were moving towards each other) and still had about 5% health left. Usually that would be insta death. Even though I was only wearing Kazakh armour. Does not bode well for anything even close to medium armour.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leesin on January 22, 2012, 11:33:42 pm
Seeing a courser take my jarid to the face and two to the body and still ride around made me lol.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on January 22, 2012, 11:45:14 pm
Takes me 4 throwing lances to kill a tincan full strength friend of mine (4 is 4 slot max amo btw), before patch guy died by three (or a few blunt lance hits after 2 throws).

BTW: Proud throwers unite! We shall no longer be discriminated against in the duel server! Throwers are humans too! All throwers gather in Zlisch' eventual thrower pride parade thread!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on January 22, 2012, 11:48:41 pm
Throwing is broken if your a hybrid  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on January 22, 2012, 11:59:36 pm
Throwing is broken if your a hybrid  :lol:

I'm not a hybrid. It's broken all together unfortunately.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Overdriven on January 23, 2012, 12:14:37 am
Throwing is broken if your a hybrid  :lol:

No it's broken if your a pure thrower to. I've had plenty of pure throwers chucking stuff at my archer in a padded jack and it barely hurt.

The only one who was successful was Thomek with his shurikens when he headshotted me at very close range and he's not even pure thrower.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Kafein on January 23, 2012, 12:23:24 am
Throwing was totally ok before the patch IMO.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on January 23, 2012, 12:29:45 am
Throwing was totally ok before the patch IMO.
And it took ages and loads of buffs and nerfs and changes to get it there.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: LastKaze on January 23, 2012, 12:31:28 am
It takes too many shots to kill someone with the limited amount of ammo available to me and the accuracy on throwing weapons isn't great enough that I can rely on just aiming for people's heads. I'm not sure what the solution is to fixing it or if there is even one but throwing is no longer a viable option and that makes me sad.
I'm an xbowman, i kind feel your pain.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 23, 2012, 12:46:06 am
The ranged class least hurt by the archer nerf is....archery  :| Clearly, much forethough was given to this nerf.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Taser on January 23, 2012, 12:49:22 am
The ranged class least hurt by the archer nerf is....archery  :| Clearly, much forethough was given to this nerf.

Seems to be that way. Throwing should not have even been included in any nerfs. It was just fine.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SixThumbs on January 23, 2012, 03:47:00 am
I used to be afraid of Chestaclese whenever I saw him on the enemy team, last night he hit me and that fear dissipated.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on January 23, 2012, 03:54:01 am
I used to be afraid of Chestaclese whenever I saw him on the enemy team, last night he hit me and that fear dissipated.

Yeah, I can see it in everyone  when I hit them heh. I don't scare anyone anymore.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SirProto on January 23, 2012, 05:04:01 am
My 8PT and stones does nothing now  :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Dexxtaa on January 23, 2012, 05:33:11 am
Why does Tzar keep posting about things he knows nothing about?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ufthak on January 23, 2012, 05:45:52 am
Couldn't kill a naked guy with 18 str and 6 IF with a heavy throwing lance(1) at 7 PT. Took me 3 throws to break his.. kite shield? (2 skill shield, 2 skill)

Destrier took 5 jarids to kill, rider would vary from 3-4 in lordly cav robe (all tests done stationary at close range)


Had a thrower chuck a jarid while I was running at him on my tincan, 65 HP 70 body armor, did about 10%
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 23, 2012, 10:25:44 am
My loomed war darts are now worthless... lol.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2012, 10:45:39 am
Throwing should be reverted to what it was before the latest patch.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: 22nd_Locco on January 23, 2012, 11:04:30 am
+1
I hope the changes to throwing damage will be undone :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: akapraf on January 23, 2012, 11:05:16 am
+1
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: YmmY on January 23, 2012, 11:39:18 am
I confirm Trowing now is useless for kill someone 3 - 4 heavy axe !! and you have 9-12  axe??? you can t never fail??? is crazy..........we need more damage and that we can carry moooore weap !!!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: _Tak_ on January 23, 2012, 11:48:41 am
I confirm Trowing now is useless for kill someone 3 - 4 heavy axe !! and you have 9-12  axe??? you can t never fail??? is crazy..........we need more damage and that we can carry moooore weap !!!

Or increase the amounts of axes you can carry. For example throwing axes = 10 instead of 3. Then the nerf problem will be fix
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rebelyell on January 23, 2012, 11:55:21 am
Or increase the amounts of axes you can carry. For example throwing axes = 10 instead of 3. Then the nerf problem will be fix

and you will complain about gay headshoters  with over 9000 axes in bag and???

make it like it was
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Brutal on January 23, 2012, 01:25:51 pm
Honestly throwing with 7 PT is still okay, even if I would like to have old damage on horse. Horsies need to learn respect  :mrgreen:.
I wouldn't mind a slight damage buff tho.

OR instead of buffing raw damage, how about buffing speed bonuses ? That could be fun...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leesin on January 23, 2012, 01:38:20 pm
Honestly throwing with 7 PT is still okay, even if I would like to have old damage on horse. Horsies need to learn respect  :mrgreen:.
I wouldn't mind a slight damage buff tho.

OR instead of buffing raw damage, how about buffing speed bonuses ? That could be fun...

That's the problem, pure throwing is one of the hardest builds to play ( well, it's the least versatile and most vulnerable to anything else on paper ) due to the fact that you have little ammo and if you're a pure thrower you're not going to have much melee skills and even if you do take a melee weapon you then lose a quarter to half of your ammo, which is meant to be your main source of kills.

So it kind of forces people to be hybrid throwers, which are much better IMO, I have played a pure thrower and a hybrid thrower many times and am playing one again, it's versatile and dangerous to many enemies. Am I bothered that my throwing is now weaker? not majorly, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I do think it was over-nerfed, the same as I think Xbows were overnerfed too. Xbows need more damage again and throwing either needs more damage or more ammo.

I don't think it needs to be as strong as pre-patch personally, just don't think it's balanced at all right now, Archery is more balanced than both of those because of the rapid fire, accurate shots and lots of ammo.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Siiem on January 23, 2012, 01:47:59 pm
Before the patch it was a bit over the top, but now as usual it's the other way around, over nerfed. Just how things work around here.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vibe on January 23, 2012, 02:19:45 pm
yes, throwing is brokedet now
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 23, 2012, 02:38:55 pm
I'm jav / pole hyrbid cav so I have even less accuracy than all of youuuus :P

It is a bit depressing, I use to be the heavy lancer's worst nightmare, the player who could not only catch him but pack a decdent punch from short range that no ha could match. It now takes me 9 mw javs, pt 5, wf 145 to kill a stationary lancer with full loomed sarranid guard armour. If 3 javelins havnt killed you, then you should fall off your horse from the weight of 3 javelins stuck in your mail :P

But seriously, I cant kill all that much with javelins, I can use them to buy me an escape but when it takes 5 javs into the body of a champ arabian horse to down it then its getting a bit silly.

Bring throwing back to how it was pre ranged nerf, it was fine then, very few people whined about it and people respected a thrower. Now medium armoured men run at you laughing as they take jav after jav raising their 2h / polearm above their head ready for the kill :P
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Armpit_Sweat on January 23, 2012, 03:20:07 pm
I am not using any throwing weapons myself, but it would be nice to see more of them on the battlefield :)

Not sure if its best to buff damage or add 1-2 ammo to the existing quantities, but there are very few throwers left in cRPG ( compared to bows and xbows ) :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 23, 2012, 03:27:53 pm
Extra ammo wont help I fear, if anything we might see more spam throw builds. We need the damage back, throwing in my opinion should be a partly random attack. The accuracy doesnt need to be raised to the point of archery, maybe a slight increase but nothing extreme. It should just be a case of throwing is a low ammo, not pinpoint accuracy (maybe a bit more than current) but extremely hard hitting short ranged weapon. The accuracy will mean that if you miss you have to recover fast or be charged down, but you take the risk because you have the ability to cripple a charging horsemen / plater or get a lucky hit on an archer fleeing on you that will later be an issue.

Throwing at formations should also be effective, it should really damage shields more than it does and people should consider breaking up a formation to reduce throwing damage over just holding and shrugging it off.

These are my opinions, but I think a lot of people agree with the core points.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Boerenlater on January 23, 2012, 06:35:57 pm
My last gen was a thrower (3 weeks ago), I never had any problems nor did it seem broken to me.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShine on January 23, 2012, 06:41:44 pm
My last gen was a thrower (3 weeks ago), I never had any problems nor did it seem broken to me.

That's pre-patch.  Now all ranged does ~33% less damage except for the head (which does more).  For a thrower with already limited stack-size & low accuracy that means a large drop in kills per stack.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ramsay on January 23, 2012, 08:16:29 pm
I respected from a fail build. On my previous gen Pre path I was a successful thrower so I made a shielder/thrower with 6 PT and heavy throwing axes. Usual stuff.

One round an enemy peasant with 5 armor shirt was throwing stones at me. I threw heavy axe straight into his chest and  stood there amazed and in dismay as he just staggered and continued throwing his stones at me. Then I cried a bit. Hit the respec button *again*. From 4 mil xp to 1mil...

From the calculator: my dmg in this situation was 62 -74 (remember that he had no armor) but guess what after nerf 75% of that is 46 - 55. Not enough to ensure kill a naked guy kill with 18 str with no IF. Now you have to be *lucky* in a dmg roll to kill him :|  I'm not even gonna start with explaining how useless it is on tincans.

Using heavy axes 2 slots u have only 6 *very* inaccurate throws.
.
I can't play a thrower for weeks praying for a buff. Its just no fun.
It's not that complicated. Just buff throwing wep Dmg 25% or exclude it from archery nerf.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on January 23, 2012, 08:55:00 pm
I respected from a fail build. On my previous gen Pre path I was a successful thrower so I made a shielder/thrower with 6 PT and heavy throwing axes. Usual stuff.

One round an enemy peasant with 5 armor shirt was throwing stones at me. I threw heavy axe straight into his chest and  stood there amazed and in dismay as he just staggered and continued throwing his stones at me. Then I cried a bit. Hit the respec button *again*. From 4 mil xp to 1mil...

From the calculator: my dmg in this situation was 62 -74 (remember that he had no armor) but guess what after nerf 75% of that is 46 - 55. Not enough to ensure kill a naked guy kill with 18 str with no IF. Now you have to be *lucky* in a dmg roll to kill him :|  I'm not even gonna start with explaining how useless it is on tincans.

Using heavy axes 2 slots u have only 6 *very* inaccurate throws.
.
I can't play a thrower for weeks praying for a buff. Its just no fun.
It's not that complicated. Just buff throwing wep Dmg 25% or exclude it from archery nerf.

This is truely a sad story and its the same for javs, so I feel your pain man  :cry:

It also upsets me to point out that damage was reduced by 33% not 25% :/
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Overdriven on January 23, 2012, 08:56:45 pm
25% for throwing would still have been to much  :| Ah but yes it should be buffed by 25%.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ramsay on January 24, 2012, 01:35:28 am
33%? 33%?!?! T_T Okey let me correct: absolutely no chance of killing a naked peasant with heavy throwing axe.

It's the first time I can remember (and I was in the pre XP barn/boat "every tincan with sword of cookies and a siege crossbow" terror age) that a supposed nerf for one class actually nerfed other class (crossbows) and totally ruined another (throwing).

It's clear that no balance team worked on this. It was just a rushed nerf on a whim.

What's worse there was much work on balancing and nerfing in old patches to make throwing just right. Now it's ruined.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: DrTaco on January 24, 2012, 03:28:16 am
I've never really noticed this nerf. You guys are just whiners - It's basically the same. I still don't kill anyone with my 11TP.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on January 24, 2012, 03:35:38 am
I've never really noticed this nerf. You guys are just whiners - It's basically the same. I still don't kill anyone with my 11TP.

That's because a throwing build with 11 pt is retarded. Did you just start playing the game or have you just remained ignorant all this time?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: robert_namo on January 24, 2012, 03:38:38 am
IMO powerthrow should have a bigger influence on throwing damage.
For example 1PT should barely notice anything, 8 PT should 1shot anything. There should be a wide range of damage modifiers.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on January 24, 2012, 03:40:11 am
That's because a throwing build with 11 pt is retarded. Did you just start playing the game or have you just remained ignorant all this time?

Andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING

Over your head.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on January 24, 2012, 03:43:42 am
Andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd ZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING

Over your head.

Hahaha. Was he being sarcastic? Guess I'm the ignorant one haha.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Calmir on January 24, 2012, 03:46:50 am
I do agree with Chesty, he is the best thrower I have ever seen. Before the nerf he was never topping the scoreboard with 30 or 40 kills like lance cav, but he would get a fair amount of kills. I saw him a day or two after the nerf and his +3 War Darts were glancing on my Lordly Banded Armor with 6 IF. I think you should  give throwers the damage they had pre-patch. I liked seeing Chesty kill shielders with throwing!

~Malicious
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: 22nd_deprav on January 24, 2012, 04:17:18 am
So I've 5 PT and I just saw someone survive one of my jav thrown at close range to his face with 48 head armor.
And then I saw radh with 23 body armor surviving 2 javs, 2 arrows and 1 bolt...

I'm building a 1h/shield/throw/cav char since the beginning, I was already playing this char back when a stack of throwing wps was using 2 slots and was mostly based on luck. (That was the worst crpg period ever for me Dx) but this might actually be worst. Unless I'm gettin some lucky-ish headshot it's pretty useless now.

But it's only been a few months since throwing weapons went from "useless pieces of crap" to "reliable weapons" and I've never seen any well-justified complaint about those, and now it's nerfed again, I sad...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: akapraf on January 24, 2012, 05:19:46 pm
All they need to do was to reduce the accuracy of the archers ( maybe the speed rating to ) because this is the real problem here and not the dmg.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Nasturtium on January 24, 2012, 07:13:10 pm
Perfect solution! Since headshotting does decent damage, just make the head models cover the entire body! Bobbleheads, enough said.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: DrTaco on January 24, 2012, 09:20:50 pm
Hmm. This will also buff the Fuckin' Ugly character faces we can create.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Molly on February 02, 2012, 09:43:04 am
I took a break from c-rpg for some months and just came back, logged onto my old char (I was so happy to see that it was still there...) and had to acknowledge that my good old thrower was totally pointless. I can't even remember how often I placed 5-6 wardarts perfectly fine into the same guy and he just walks off... that ain't right.
I don't know about the patch cuz I wasn't here but I do know that something is terribly wrong with throwing.
Not even the "stop a horse with a heavy throwing axe" works... what ever was done - it sucks!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Thomek on February 02, 2012, 12:49:14 pm
Yeah.. throwing needs a buff.

Didn't get MW Jarids for using 3 of them to down a rouncey. (6pt/133wpf)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: El_Infante on February 02, 2012, 02:03:11 pm
Throwing is broken if your a hybrid  :lol:

Stop your antiranged lobby tzar, you are alone. We all know that you want to nerf every ranged to the ground and you are not archer or thrower; we are part of the game and we demand that we think it's fair.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rebelyell on February 02, 2012, 02:16:50 pm
yea i am just geting sick when i see peeps complaining about somethin what isn't hes class only for buf hes own class by nerf second one
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Penitent on February 02, 2012, 03:39:28 pm
all ranged is broken, actually
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Miracle on February 02, 2012, 04:18:42 pm
Chestaclese was raping the community servers last night as a thrower.  If you think throwing needs a buff you're high.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: dynamike on February 02, 2012, 04:56:19 pm
Chestaclese was raping the community servers last night as a thrower.  If you think throwing needs a buff you're high.

Chesty eats jarids for breakfast and shits war darts. You can't compare him to an average thrower.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: XyNox on February 02, 2012, 05:32:20 pm
Chestaclese was raping the community servers last night as a thrower.  If you think throwing needs a buff you're high.

I saw one skilled player using throwing so throwing OP. NERF !

BAN

( No seriously I think posts like these are hindering the developement of the game and should be bannable. )
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MR_FISTA on February 02, 2012, 08:39:18 pm
My friend recently started playing and he thinks throwing is great , he usually finishes with slightly more kills than deaths and hes only level 19, so I fail to see the problem.

He's a total noob and he stacking strength and power throw and he's loving it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: akapraf on February 02, 2012, 08:43:46 pm
My friend recently started playing and he thinks throwing is great , he usually finishes with slightly more kills than deaths and hes only level 19, so I fail to see the problem.

He's a total noob and he stacking strength and power throw and he's loving it.
tell him to hunt plate and cav, it's easy to make frags if you only play for frags
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Miracle on February 02, 2012, 08:46:07 pm
Never in my post did I say to nerf throwing and I don't think it needs a nerf.
Chesty eats jarids for breakfast and shits war darts. You can't compare him to an average thrower.
So then you can't say nerf cav based on the few elitists that do well on horseback, right?  Same goes for melee.  People just don't stick with throwing long enough to develop the skills to be a successful thrower like Chesty.  And I guess I didn't realize they also suffered from the damage nerf with the last patch.  I do agree with giving them their damage back to pre-patch.  But saying the throwing needs to 1-shot everything is ridiculous and THAT is what is killing development.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Miracle on February 02, 2012, 08:52:39 pm
.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on February 02, 2012, 08:56:33 pm
We got jarids doing the same amount of damage as arrows... There really isnt a huge difference in damage between throwing and strong ranged builds, but the accuracy, range and ammo count is far lower. That isn't balanced imo.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 02, 2012, 09:44:16 pm
Chestaclese was raping the community servers last night as a thrower.  If you think throwing needs a buff you're high.
Whoever Chestaclese is tell him to only use throwing lances, and only fight pure-strength builds, unless the idiots charge right into him with a higher speed than their agi allows for they'll each take four throwing lances to put down. Guess how many throwing lances you get if you fill each slot with them... yeah... that's right... you're to damn stupid to guess the obvious and implied answer so I'll post it: FOUR.

...Is that balanced? No. Does it need a huge damage buff? Yes. Should Miracle have tried throwing at least once since after the patch before posting his comment? Let's see if you can guess that answer.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Miracle on February 02, 2012, 09:50:06 pm
Whoever Chestaclese is tell him to only use throwing lances, and only fight pure-strength builds, unless the idiots charge right into him with a higher speed than their agi allows for they'll each take four throwing lances to put down. Guess how many throwing lances you get if you fill each slot with them... yeah... that's right... you're to damn stupid to guess the obvious and implied answer so I'll post it: FOUR.

...Is that balanced? No. Does it need a huge damage buff? Yes. Should Miracle have tried throwing at least once since after the patch before posting his comment? Let's see if you can guess that answer.

Ok. You win.  All throwing weapons should 1 shot kill everything no matter what.  Also, my first comment wasn't really meant to be taken serious.  Sorry everyone got so fucking butthurt over it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: dynamike on February 02, 2012, 10:14:24 pm
So then you can't say nerf cav based on the few elitists that do well on horseback, right?

Agreed. Besides, Huey isn't really that good and cav is hard.


Whoever Chestaclese is

Chestaclese is the guy that uses light armor and only uses war darts. And by only I mean no other weapon. Then he runs into a group of enemies like a melee fighter would and delivers death in form of sub-polearm-length distance throws, most of them headshots of course.

Yeah, that kinda guy.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShine on February 02, 2012, 10:17:19 pm
Chestaclese is like the only thrower that comes to mind, which means he's the only thrower that gives me any sort of scare.

If only one thrower comes to mind, that probably means throwing is broken.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 02, 2012, 10:30:34 pm
Ok. You win.  All throwing weapons should 1 shot kill everything no matter what.  Also, my first comment wasn't really meant to be taken serious.
I never claimed all throwers should one shot everything... but the throwing lance is in severe need of a buff, jarrid aswell, I don't know about the others weps, but those are the two I use.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: dynamike on February 02, 2012, 10:52:35 pm
I never claimed all throwers should one shot everything... but the throwing lance is in severe need of a buff, jarrid aswell, I don't know about the others weps, but those are the two I use.

Isn't it always the ones one uses that need the buffs?  :wink:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Darkwulf on February 02, 2012, 11:41:49 pm
Yes it needs a damage buff, as do most things.  I do not like living through multiple strikes from any decent weapon.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on February 03, 2012, 12:07:23 am
Throwing is the bastard child of cprg. Sad realy, it was a fun playstyle
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 03, 2012, 03:19:05 am
Chestaclese was raping the community servers last night as a thrower.  If you think throwing needs a buff you're high.

I was lucky to be playing on a team made up mostly of Chaos and that most of them were in teamspeak.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Felix on February 03, 2012, 09:55:59 am
Well i can recall Dimanche - the Pecores guy with throwing axes. He was quite a formidable thrower.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on February 03, 2012, 02:14:28 pm
funny whenever I play on na_1 any thrower still 2 shots me regardless of body armor and usually 1 shots my horse no matter what shit weapon they're using or what shit build

before this nerf throwing axes literally 1 shot chamion cataphracts and would do 3/4 of their HP with body shots that had no momentum bonus

thank you i think throwing is a little better now, maybe too powerful still, just like rus and long bows with stacked PD


Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 03, 2012, 03:22:54 pm
Isn't it always the ones one uses that need the buffs?  :wink:
I've been several things, and I never thought they were UP until I got to the after-patch throwing weapons german poleaxe-man, swordman light thrower, heavy thrower, after-patch heavy thrower, after patch HT.
No one asked for the nerf except Smoothrich (sucker who don't know wtf he's talking about), barely any EU throwers, (I heard it's different on NA).
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vrael on February 03, 2012, 03:29:54 pm
Last week or something the Ninjas rocked Eu_1 and a cav came against us. Thomek threw 2 mw jarids in the destriers face, but it didn't die. A mw snowflake did the job. So yes, I think throwing should be buffed.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Hippy on February 03, 2012, 03:31:35 pm
I always figured throwing was a bit undermined anyway seeing as it doesn't have the range of bows/xbows or the consistency of bows, but the one trade off was that it dealt good damage and could be thrown moving as well as being idle. That to me already makes it a hard weapon to use, so why nerf it when it takes some practice to be consistently good with it?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 03, 2012, 10:36:35 pm
funny whenever I play on na_1 any thrower still 2 shots me regardless of body armor and usually 1 shots my horse no matter what shit weapon they're using or what shit build

before this nerf throwing axes literally 1 shot chamion cataphracts and would do 3/4 of their HP with body shots that had no momentum bonus

thank you i think throwing is a little better now, maybe too powerful still, just like rus and long bows with stacked PD

Cav is so hard. Buff cav and nerf throwing again so Smoothrich can get a good nights sleep.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 03, 2012, 10:43:54 pm
Cav is so hard. Buff cav and nerf throwing again so Smoothrich can get a good nights sleep.
Oh he's a cav, that explains it, don't worry, the devs will nerf throwing further so you can ride straight into throwers without any speed bonus on our throws.
That's the reason we can do damage against cav, because they ride straight into us not thinking about the speed bonus. So lets nerf throwing again so the type of guy I assume Smoothrich is can get easy kills and stay flat out retarded and expect their couches to be undodgable, them to be untouchable, and more importantly them to be the best players on the globe.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 03, 2012, 10:52:24 pm
Cav is so hard. Buff cav and nerf throwing again so Smoothrich can get a good nights sleep.

I like how the USA players bitch that cav is so easy, and yet complains whenever the range predator dares scratch their horse.

3/4 damage with a throwing axe to a champion cataphract, eh, no momentum bonus?

I like this:
I think throwing is a little better now, maybe too powerful still, just like rus and long bows with stacked PD

Let's do some number crunching.

Looking at a normal one (even weaker):
(click to show/hide)
VS
(click to show/hide)

Now assuming a god tier thrower with 8PD and 6WM, at 24STR and 154 wpf and NAKED, this gives us:
(click to show/hide)

Hmm, maybe a real baddass will decide to hit him? Let us look at somehow someone with 154 wpf but now ten Power Throw, some post-level 30 badass:
(click to show/hide)

Now, imagine a champion Cataphract with increased health and armour taking these shots.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 03, 2012, 10:58:15 pm
I like how the USA players bitch that cav is so easy, and yet complains whenever the range predator dares scratch their horse.

3/4 damage with a throwing axe to a champion cataphract, eh, no momentum bonus?

I like this:
Let's do some number crunching.

Looking at a normal one (even weaker):
(click to show/hide)
VS
(click to show/hide)

Now assuming a god tier thrower with 8PD and 6WM, at 24STR and 154 wpf and NAKED, this gives us:
(click to show/hide)

Hmm, maybe a real baddass will decide to hit him? Let us look at somehow someone with 154 wpf but now ten Power Throw, some post-level 30 badass:
(click to show/hide)

Now, imagine a champion Cataphract with increased health and armour taking these shots.
Speed bonus is everything for a thrower like me, sure there are some like that Chestaclese guy who often make headshots (I only do around two-four a day with my throwing lances and jarrids TBH D:), When Kafein comes charging into me and I in the last second throw a jarrid into his smug cav foot (please note before anyone asks I do not hate cav, I play cav, and I don't hate Kafein (just a little friendly insulting) I take 90% off his health, however when he's standing still it takes WAY more throws to kill.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: dynamike on February 03, 2012, 11:13:40 pm
Smoothrich, when his horse got thrown to death under him:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on February 03, 2012, 11:26:10 pm
i'm sorry i'm not clicking on any of tears links, anyways i was on na_1 today with 61 body armor and 2 ironflesh, 24 strength, and a thrower took off 90 percent of my HP with 1 hammer, body shot, while i was in the middle of melee.  he also 1 shotted my destrier with a body shot.  this happens every day

no one is talking about cav balance here (yes theres too many scrub armored and courser cav on now), just that throwing puts out the highest damage of any class requiring the lowest amount of effort or skill, absolutely insane amounts of damage, arguing that it doesn't is a lie

tears i looked at those charts, they're all obviously way fucking wrong, 1 heavy throwing axe regularly does 100+ damage with body hits with little to no speed bonus, urist made it so it uses old soak values or something like that, basically they do better than pierce damage it seems, and 100+ of it
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShine on February 04, 2012, 12:27:17 am
Any throwers on?  I'm going to be around for the next hour, hour and a half.  I'd be interested in doing some video testing. 

Come to NA_3 or hop into IRC and ping me cause I'm eating some dinner.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 04, 2012, 01:17:57 am
Tested. What's the verdict Dr. Shine? Is Smoothrich full of hot air?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShine on February 04, 2012, 01:43:38 am
Tested. What's the verdict Dr. Shine? Is Smoothrich full of hot air?

I've received the diagnosis, and I have bad news; Smoothrich's story is terminally ill on account of too much bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj8x8T2p-3Y&context=C30af511ADOEgsToPDskIy3dH0RlFzIlYRfZ9vukUl
Headshot test.  Doesn't say too much because I'm not sure if that first shot actually hit the head even though it looked like it did on my screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBLkmzk9FvM&context=C3eaad32ADOEgsToPDskKI6n0ycx9oP3lCeSJ_iH4v
3(2) standing still shots.  The second axe probably hit me as I was moving (I'm dumb).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3IlWxh_rg0&context=C30af511ADOEgsToPDskIy3dH0RlFzIlYRfZ9vukUl
Me running at Chesty, getting hit near point blank.  3 hits to kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5DxAgyeyw&context=C30af511ADOEgsToPDskIy3dH0RlFzIlYRfZ9vukUl
Ghazi offered his horse for the test; full speed +3 courser taking a point blank body shot that did 75% damage.


So I have less armor and less HP compared to smoothrich.  Courser obviously has less hp/armor as well.  Heavy throwing axes were +1.  Heavy throwing axes have 3 axes to a stack. 

Yeah, throwing needs a buff pretty bad.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on February 04, 2012, 02:03:50 am
7 PT, not impressed, many throwers do 9-10

just looking at those youtubes, 2 or 3 more powerthrow and you would've been 1-2 shotted every time, and the courser would've been 1 shotted with a body shot with just 8 PT,  just like i'm complaining about.  10 PT throwers can 1 shot horses with the heavy axes and 1-2 shot any infantry build regardless of speed bonus

imagine the damage this class was doing before the flat 30 percent decrease or whatever it was.  just unacceptable balance wise
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 04, 2012, 02:15:48 am
7 PT, not impressed, many throwers do 9-10

just looking at those youtubes, 2 or 3 more powerthrow and you would've been 1-2 shotted every time, and the courser would've been 1 shotted with a body shot with just 8 PT,  just like i'm complaining about.  10 PT throwers can 1 shot horses with the heavy axes and 1-2 shot any infantry build regardless of speed bonus

imagine the damage this class was doing before the flat 30 percent decrease or whatever it was.  just unacceptable balance wise

Can't argue with that. I'm a thrower that people consider reasonably good and you're a cav player that knows throwers that have 10 pt that one hit your horse and kill you. I must be some kind of fucking asshole to open my mouth on this subject. Clearly I'm the ignorant one between us. I conscede the rest of my time on this subject to expert on all things throwing Smoothrich.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 02:31:48 am
10 PT throwers can 1 shot horses with the heavy axes and 1-2 shot any infantry build regardless of speed bonus

Funny, then why don't they whenever I see you play? Or any heavy cav play? Unless we are counting axes to the head of a Destrier as heavy cav, I don't think I believe you all that much.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 04, 2012, 02:40:46 am
10 PT throwers can 1 shot horses with the heavy axes and 1-2 shot any infantry build regardless of speed bonus

"just that throwing puts out the highest damage of any class [LIE, an average two-hander deals WAY more damage] requiring the lowest amount of effort or skill [LIE, we got a huge reticule, unless we go naked agi spammer we got to carefully watch out neither to get to far or to close to our enemies, takes much more awareness than your average two-hander or cav build.], absolutely insane amounts of damage [I believe that spot is reserved for your couched lance], arguing that it doesn't is a lie [LIE, if you had any brains you'd know why by now]"
Lie, let's see, Zlisch the Butcher: 7pt however since I use throwing lances I deal around a quarter more damage and it balances itself out.
Zlisch takes up to FOUR throws to kill MR_Onion and all those other strength players, this is even freaking pierce instead of that cut, I take two throwing lances to kill a fleeing archer with (I assume) 0 IF if I'm lucky (normally it's fucking three), so don't you go off making your retarded bullshit claims.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 02:44:03 am
Lie, let's see, Zlisch the Butcher: 7pt however since I use throwing lances I deal around a quarter more damage and it balances itself out.
Zlisch takes up to FOUR throws to kill MR_Onion and all those other strength players, this is even freaking pierce instead of that cut, I take two throwing lances to kill a fleeing archer with (I assume) 0 IF if I'm lucky (normally it's fucking three), so don't you go off making your retarded bullshit claims.

With all due respect.

1.) He is USA clan, an LLJK splinter

2.) said this:
...1 heavy throwing axe regularly does 100+ damage with body hits with little to no speed bonus... basically they do better than pierce damage it seems, and 100+ of it

Obvious troll is obvious.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 04, 2012, 02:47:46 am
Obvious troll is obvious.
TBH I think he really is that stupid... but I don't know, not an NA player after all so I haven't had a chance to kill that noob cav.
please not I'm not making any attacks on cav in any posts in this thread, I'm just making attacks on that one fool.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShovelFace on February 04, 2012, 02:48:59 am
gives us bak te trowin pewpew plox

chesty does 1/20 of my hp with his darts
if he emptied all of his darts in my chest there would be very few left after that

there is no way to deliberately aim for the head with throwing weapons and if you try to then you are wasting precious ammo
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShovelFace on February 04, 2012, 02:52:11 am
woops
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 02:52:16 am
He may be stupid in some aspects, but he is smart in others. I would honestly say he is not a "noob cav" though extremely delusional nonetheless for some things.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on February 04, 2012, 03:48:15 am
so many personal attacks in this thread, I am not flinging feces on the virgin mary here, I just think throwing damage was too high pre nerf, one of the biggest flaws in game balance IMO, and is better now.

what do you expect the damage to be like from scrub pierce weapons like darts?  you get a ton of them so i would hardly expect them to be doing arbalest like damage (as they did pre patch)

really my biggest problem is PT stacked people who used heavy throwing axes, and none of these tests or anecdotes refute my point whatsoever, as you are using shittier weapons with less damaging builds.  those things were basically handheld automatic arbalests, and probably still do similar damage, and this is mostly because of the reverted armor soak values.

maybe the balancers would listen to your suggestions if you people weren't so rude and offensive to other points of view, sheesh, now i hope they never fix ranged

also how is saying throwers can do over 100 damage trolling?  PT seems to be 10 percent increase, throwing axes do 45 damage, 10 PT makes it nearly 100 (factor in speed bonus and it will easily clear 100)  and this shit goes through armor just like butter due to whatever urist fucked up.  do you think i'm just lying or trolling when i talk about throwing axes one shotting armored horses hitting them in the side at a slow (or even reverse) trot, and emptying out my HP bar as infantry with poorly aimed ankle hits and stuff?  its awful and thrower spam whenever it is too popular is the number 1 worst thing in this game, even worse than archers IMO, i don't miss that shit at all
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 04, 2012, 05:12:19 am
so many personal attacks in this thread, I am not flinging feces on the virgin mary here, I just think throwing damage was too high pre nerf, one of the biggest flaws in game balance IMO, and is better now.

what do you expect the damage to be like from scrub pierce weapons like darts?  you get a ton of them so i would hardly expect them to be doing arbalest like damage (as they did pre patch)

really my biggest problem is PT stacked people who used heavy throwing axes, and none of these tests or anecdotes refute my point whatsoever, as you are using shittier weapons with less damaging builds.  those things were basically handheld automatic arbalests, and probably still do similar damage, and this is mostly because of the reverted armor soak values.

maybe the balancers would listen to your suggestions if you people weren't so rude and offensive to other points of view, sheesh, now i hope they never fix ranged

also how is saying throwers can do over 100 damage trolling?  PT seems to be 10 percent increase, throwing axes do 45 damage, 10 PT makes it nearly 100 (factor in speed bonus and it will easily clear 100)  and this shit goes through armor just like butter due to whatever urist fucked up.  do you think i'm just lying or trolling when i talk about throwing axes one shotting armored horses hitting them in the side at a slow (or even reverse) trot, and emptying out my HP bar as infantry with poorly aimed ankle hits and stuff?  its awful and thrower spam whenever it is too popular is the number 1 worst thing in this game, even worse than archers IMO, i don't miss that shit at all

My apologies Smoothrich. I didn't mean to be a jerk heh, I'm just baffled at what are you saying. Statements like "PT seems to be a 10 percent increase" and throwing axes doing over a hundred damage and one shot plated chargers are so far from reality that Tears thought you were being sarcastic. Not even back before the first throwing nerf when you could carry like 30 axes and they did more damage was I able to one shot plated horses. Throwing axes have a quick release speed and some goofy hitboxes but they have the same damage soak as any 44 cut weapon.

You need to rethink what you are writing and come up with some actual facts to support your case. Right now you just sound stupid and delusional.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tears of Destiny on February 04, 2012, 05:19:02 am
do you think i'm just lying or trolling when i talk about throwing axes one shotting armored horses hitting them in the side at a slow (or even reverse) trot

Trolling.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: BADPLAYERold on February 04, 2012, 05:46:14 am
When I used Champion Cataphract it was never 1shot by throwing weapons to the side but alot of the time it got left with 1/10th hp or something like that from just 1 Jarid or the like.
Last patch throwing was imo too strong, people just spammed throwing weapons and they are terribly unfun to fight even if not completely OP. Although I do agree that now the nerf is too far, I don't think it should be reverted to how to was last patch.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on February 04, 2012, 05:53:35 am
powerthrow is a 10 percent increase according to the cRPG wiki (I know how trustworthy those things are) but it certainly seems accurate

They don't one hit horses anymore but last patch it honestly didn't matter how much armor or HP your horse had, 1 throwing axe would do at least 100 HP worth of damage on average.  Keep in mind I'm not talking about plated chargers or mamluks.  My proof is that this shit happened to me every day.. hell it just happened today with some thrower (probably a 10 PT gimmick skip the fun or something) hit my destrier with a hammer and did at least 100 HP damage to it. 

throwing was absurdly OP last patch, hits from nearly any angle would so very very often leave horses at 1/8th or less HP, same as infantry I'm sure there are some tweaks that can be made to bring it more in line (slight buffs all around) but there is a reason all of that stuff got nerfed:  it makes the game much less enjoyable for everyone else.  I know you're good at the class and make it interesting but when there are 10+ throwers everywhere just mowing people down, along with every shielder having PT, I'd rather not play cRPG at all, and I'm sure many people agree
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on February 04, 2012, 06:19:47 am
powerthrow is a 10 percent increase according to the cRPG wiki (I know how trustworthy those things are) but it certainly seems accurate

They don't one hit horses anymore but last patch it honestly didn't matter how much armor or HP your horse had, 1 throwing axe would do at least 100 HP worth of damage on average.  Keep in mind I'm not talking about plated chargers or mamluks.  My proof is that this shit happened to me every day.. hell it just happened today with some thrower (probably a 10 PT gimmick skip the fun or something) hit my destrier with a hammer and did at least 100 HP damage to it. 

throwing was absurdly OP last patch, hits from nearly any angle would so very very often leave horses at 1/8th or less HP, same as infantry I'm sure there are some tweaks that can be made to bring it more in line (slight buffs all around) but there is a reason all of that stuff got nerfed:  it makes the game much less enjoyable for everyone else.  I know you're good at the class and make it interesting but when there are 10+ throwers everywhere just mowing people down, along with every shielder having PT, I'd rather not play cRPG at all, and I'm sure many people agree

There has to be some consequence for how fast horses move heh. Cavalry deal out a ton of damage and have such mobility. I'm sure I was killed by just as many horses as I killed and that's a fair ratio for two classes that are suppose to be arch rivals. William the Conqueror lost a ton of horses to throwing weapons when he invaded England but he beasted on.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MrShine on February 04, 2012, 07:31:09 am
Smooth your probably just trolling so it doesn't even pay for me to respond, but I fail to see how a 7 PT build with +1 heavy axes does 40% point blank with speed bonus to me, yet you somehow think that a 9 or 10 PT build from a STF char can do twice as much damage to you, when you and your horse both have more HP and more armor than the examples I clearly showed in the youtube videos. Unless those last 2 to 3 PT suddenly boost damage by 33-50% damage per point, you're talking nonsense.

I'm going to trust the dedicated throwers on what a proper throwing build is instead of your insistence most throwers go 27/12 or 30/9.

Bring some proof to the table with the whining if you want to be taken seriously in the discussion :P

Besides, heavy cav need some sort of natural enemies.  Archery certainly doesn't do it, and xbows might but they shoot so slowly that when caught in the open they are worse than useless.  Throwers have to be in the thick of it to deal their damage and are hindered by small stack size, but yes they have great potential to deal strong damage because of it.  Frankly even if they did do as much damage as you say with 2 heavy throwing axes to kill your heavy horse, and then 2 to kill you, that's a third of the max stack size they have for the round... to down one dude.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on February 05, 2012, 01:23:30 am
Smooth, today, on my rouncey, I had two throwing axes thrown into the uper side of my horse (should have a light speed bonus), and at least four arrows in it's back, how come my horse was left on over quarter health after that?.. (Which only lasted a minute do to me being distracted by thinking back on your retarded claims and then riding into a hoplite) and if you're dump enough to ride head-on into a thrower you deserve to get onehit.
Also, four throwing lances from my pt 7 build and Vibe has over half health left. D: Is that fucking balanced?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gurnisson on February 05, 2012, 01:37:47 am
Also, four throwing lances from my pt 7 build and Vibe has over half health left. D: Is that fucking balanced?

Come to eu 3 and throw them at me please. I can't believe that at all. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Oggrinsky on February 05, 2012, 01:47:58 am
In my opinion, throwing ought to be the hard counter for cavalry. It makes sense not only because it is historically accurate but it balances out the overall play field. Throwing should absolutely decimate horses, speed bonus + huge heavy ranged missile should = a very dead horse. Throwing was only a problem a year ago or so before slots were introduced and one could use throwing without any wpf. Those days are gone though and even before the latest patch there were very few throwers and even fewer throwers that invoked fear... Chucky and Chestaclese are the only two that come to mind.

I guess my point is that Crpg needs throwing to be stronger in order to balance out the current cavalry problem. Pikes are humorously ineffective because they require the cavalry to be unaware of an enormous stick waving about in the air. Pikes are cavalry deterrent. Archers used to fill this role, but now head shots are the only effective way to bring down anything. Throwing though... throwing has the potential to be an amazing cavalry counter in the right hands. It's like having a limited amount of pikes that you can throw and is balanced due to the small pool of ammunition available.

To be honest, I don't think you're trolling Smooth. I just think you have a completely biased, cry baby perspective. Throwing should ruin horses. It's not OP, it's a balancing measure. Especially against heavy cavalry. Currently, no one fills the roll of anti-cavalry and as I found out this generation as light cavalry; this lack of a counter leads to ridiculous feeling of invincibility from horseback. It doesn't matter if you're spending 100k on upkeep, the law of counters ought to apply to everyone.

Do you charge directly into spearmen who are aware of you? No? That seems balanced correct? Then why should you be able to charge directly at a thrower who's aware of your presence without risk of losing your horse and your life?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: San on February 05, 2012, 02:15:29 am
I completely agree with Oggrinsky. A thrower should not have to waste an entire stack just to kill one person. A thrower has to risk being in a vulnerable state, pretty close to melee and within firing distance of other ranged users. If he hybridizes, he will have much less ammo unless those weapons are also throwing.

I feel that pikemen need to be a hybrid or have a backup weapon in order to be successful against heavier cav by themselves. You only have 1 or maybe 2 hits after stopping a horse. For instance, hoplite needs to switch to a pierce 1h weapon after stopping a horse in order to deal any significant damage, otherwise my anti-cav abilities are greatly hindered.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on February 06, 2012, 10:00:26 am
My dedicated thrower... is not effective at all and no fun now.  Crunching numbers is all fine and well, but if what was a fun build before, is now a "spam as much as I can in hopes that he is already half dead when i started"...  it is hard to believe that can be called "balanced" or "better" with a straight face.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Brutal on February 06, 2012, 12:39:17 pm
Throwed  3  +2 jarrid with 7 PT this morning at an  xbow man 3 meters away wearing cloth and leather glove (most probably agi build), didn't die !!!  :evil: .

Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on February 06, 2012, 01:14:29 pm
damage to the limbs is still weak, go for the body
I'v noticed an improvement
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Malaclypse on February 06, 2012, 03:05:56 pm
Yeah, getting some epic body damage/kills on Throwing Daggers/Stones with 9PT again after last patch.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on February 06, 2012, 03:23:42 pm
Yeah, getting some epic body damage/kills on Throwing Daggers/Stones with 9PT again after last patch.

Did they rebuff throwing then?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on February 06, 2012, 03:25:41 pm
they just buffed ranged in general
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on February 06, 2012, 03:26:53 pm
they just buffed ranged in general

How so and since when? (if you dont mind me asking :P)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Overdriven on February 06, 2012, 03:33:23 pm
So basically all ranged does more damage again except on arm and leg hits.
Melee does less damage against arms and legs.
Melee deals more damage against horse legs.

That's about as much detail as we got.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lordark on February 07, 2012, 09:07:46 am
if u buff thrown then ranged gonna get buffed too so throwers beware
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Kansuke on March 23, 2012, 08:26:31 pm
Throwing is still broken, I invested 5 skill point and I have 100 wpf in throwing, I am more accurate and more efficient with a crossbow and 0 wpf.

This is clearly the weakest ranged class ingame atm: too few ammo, accuracy is a joke, projectile speed is laughable, damage are not that good.

Also I don't understand why you need to aim so high to hit anything but the feet of an enemy who is 5 meters in front of you. I believe buffing throwing would help regulating the amount of cav player and add more build diversity.

Please devs consider buffing throwing...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: BADPLAYERold on March 23, 2012, 08:46:55 pm
Throwing is still broken, I invested 5 skill point and I have 100 wpf in throwing, I am more accurate and more efficient with a crossbow and 0 wpf.

This is clearly the weakest ranged class ingame atm: too few ammo, accuracy is a joke, projectile speed is laughable, damage are not that good.

Also I don't understand why you need to aim so high to hit anything but the feet of an enemy who is 5 meters in front of you. I believe buffing throwing would help regulating the amount of cav player and add more build diversity.

Please devs consider buffing throwing...

no
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Phew on March 23, 2012, 09:31:12 pm
Please devs consider buffing throwing...

Throwing is pretty perfect right now. I also use throwing as a sidearm (5 PT, 100wpf), and I can chuck 6 axes/jarids down a ladder on siege and almost guarantee that all 6 will hit someone or their shield. However, the inaccuracy ensures I will never snipe anyone from distance, but I think that's the intent. I've had 6 straight misses on someone 10 ft away, but I've also got luck headshots from quite a distance; it evens out.

With 5PT and jarids, I do the same damage as a crossbow, albeit at a much higher rate of fire (and shorter effective range), and similar cost. Throwing also has other perks over x-bow, such as secondary melee mode (useful on the Heavy Throwing Axe and Throwing Lance), easy to pick up misses (my own and others), and useable with shield.

And most of all, throwing is just FUN.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on March 23, 2012, 09:32:04 pm
the worst part of throwing is the awful armor penalties.  50 points in xbow and you can be 99% accurate at 20-30 yards, with 100 throwing and medium armor you cant even be 30% accurate at 10 yards.
If your going to keep throwing as a stat & WPF sink, make xbows require powerdraw like they should have
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on March 23, 2012, 09:36:13 pm
Hmm let's not forget throwing can be used with a shield and are the highest dps per second. Above all else, THEY ARE TRULY FUN!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on March 23, 2012, 09:43:35 pm
Like Diggles said, the main problem with throwing is the wpf sink.

You can get 13 PT but you can't get enough wpf to take advantage of it.

Takes me 91 wpf to handle 4 PT in modest armor (light kuyak, mail mittens, nordic warlord hemlet, splinted greaves).

I really wish they'd reduce the armor penalties a bit.

No offense to Chucky but "pure thrower" is a silly thing to be -- not enough ammo -- and yet it's hard to be a hybrid thrower because of the steep wpf requirements.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 23, 2012, 09:50:13 pm
I'm playing a pure thrower and it is really fun only is the low ammo so you really have to be careful. you can never aim shielders, its a pure waste. then comes upkeep, 500 gold upkeep for a throwing lance, you have 4 it cots quite a bit...

the wpf sink is a bit ridiculous it should be buffed but not to much, you dont want hybris with throwing lances!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 23, 2012, 10:03:40 pm
There are some good throwers out there. They've got some nasty tricks. It's a class that probably should take some skill (not everyone can just pick it up and do well *cough heavy lance *cough). Otherwise we will just hear another round of "Nerf ranged!".

I think it could probably stand some minor tweaks, but being able to wear more armor without penalty is not one of them. Armor would certainly effect a throwing arm more than simply drawing back a bowstring would, but archers are restricted to Paper Mache.

Perhaps a slight ammo increase, slight WPF increase, but not reducing the WFP penalty for armor.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Kansuke on March 23, 2012, 10:22:43 pm
Look at them cav downvoting my post  :rolleyes:

Your class is overpowered and throwing should be one of its natural counter, as it is now throwing isn't a big threat for cavalry but I hope this will change for the sake of balance, infantery and hybrid should be fun to play too.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 23, 2012, 11:27:46 pm
Look at them cav downvoting my post  :rolleyes:

Your class is overpowered and throwing should be one of its natural counter, as it is now throwing isn't a big threat for cavalry but I hope this will change for the sake of balance, infantery and hybrid should be fun to play too.

haha, so true!

Most cav when they see me with my throwing lances just avoid me!
But some are foolish enough to charge me! I remember Chargan charge me fullspeed only to see his horse one shot and kill him with another lance when he was on the ground! Another came fullspeed on his courser trying to couch me in a pure straight line, couldnt miss...1 shot...

7 pt + masterwork throwing lances + speed bonus = a dead cav!

and then some of them come to me QQing that it's op! What another class can one hit kill that is not cav? how can this be? and it one hit kills cav, how dare you!

guess what you just go by me, dont charge me and you will be fine! i have 4 lances cant afford to waste them!

We are your on foot pure counter...if only you come close...

Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leshma on March 23, 2012, 11:44:55 pm
i have 4 lances cant afford to waste them!

Then why you waste them on me?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 24, 2012, 12:07:38 am
mmm your not on my target list  :)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on March 24, 2012, 06:17:03 pm
another thing that makes it a pain in the ass is if you pick up throwing during the round that you didnt spawn with, even if you use all of them up, you are still considered holding it for the purposes of spawning with it next round.

So if I'm out of ammo and see some stupid wardarts or something, I have to make sure I pick up more than 1 of them, so I can throw 1 and then drop the others so I dont get stuck with them the next round
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on March 24, 2012, 08:56:39 pm
I think throwing needs to be altered in a way to make it a "skill" based class. At the moment aiming a throwing weapon is impossible, its basically a video game shotgun you have to get super close to someone and throw it in their general direction and hopefully you hit them. I see throwers all the time come up to a team mate fighting an enemy one on one, and they try to hit the enemy and end up tking there team mate, cause when u throw that weapon there really is no telling where it will hit.

This effects throwing greatly in that throwing is very easy to play, but you cant actually do really well with it consistently, by that i mean you cant actually become good at it, because there is no skill required to play it, just throw in a general direction and hope you hit someone whose not on your team. There needs to be some real aiming mechanic introduced into the game that is both challenging, but if you get good at it you can actually throw accurately.

Im tired of having a thrower try to help me in a one on one fight and there being as good as a chance of him hitting me in the head as there is him hitting my opponent in the foot, or as there is the weapon just flying off into space. And don't say running away and throwing at someone is a skill, every class has to run away in certain situations as a thrower does, its not a skill and its not specific to the class. As far as damage goes it does pretty good damage if your using a good throwing weapon, i ride a +2 destritier that gets one shotted by throwing all the time, throwing does so much damage their the one class im really cautious about attacking. Like i said throwing is basically CRPGs version of a shotgun in a FPS.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 24, 2012, 09:00:43 pm
I think throwing needs to be altered in a way to make it a "skill" based class. At the moment aiming a throwing weapon is impossible, its basically a video game shotgun you have to get super close to someone and throw it in their general direction and hopefully you hit them. I see throwers all the time come up to a team mate fighting an enemy one on one, and they try to hit the enemy and end up tking there team mate, cause when u throw that weapon there really is no telling where it will hit.

I think the reduction in ammo, followed by the increase in damage, which needs to be balanced by not making it auto-1-hit-kill by making it inaccurate was a bad way to go. Give them more ammo, make it do less damage, but give it more accuracy in its given range. (25 yards or less, beyond that make it a crap shoot) I think I contradicted my earlier opinion, but I've thought about it more.  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Phew on March 24, 2012, 09:36:16 pm
The wpf requirement is about perfect too. With only 4 weapon master/4 PT, you can be 120 wpf in your main weapon and like 86 in throwing, which is enough for medium armor/helmet. Heavy throwing axe headshots kill most people with even 4 PT, or 2-3 to the body (if they are in heavy armor, don't waste your ammo). Or dedicated throwers can have like 9 PT, which can seriously mess people up with loomed Jarids or even War Darts.

I would like to see a slight bump in accuracy, so throwers could be more useful for anti-cavalry. Or maybe make PT over the weapon requirement significantly increase accuracy so only dedicated throwers could snipe horses?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 24, 2012, 09:40:20 pm
true throwing can be kind of random

but throwing a lance to a cav that is not charging at you but just passing by requires some skill trust me
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ammeron on March 24, 2012, 09:45:06 pm
yeah overall i think throwing is pretty terrible, a jarrid with some descent PT does hurt thou, but they have so little accuracy with a build like that its not like it matters. and so little ammo
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ROHYPNOL on March 25, 2012, 03:29:10 am
I actually got something to say about this.. I made a 10pt thrower with jarids, compared to when i did it probably 4 months ago it is totally changed. Archers do more damage to you riding at them than my jarids seem to do. I hit a guy on horseback riding full speed at me 3 times to kill him. Ive hit the same people 4 or 5 times to kill them. Well there is almost half my ammo i carry right there haha. I would say the damage or something is a bit nerfed and im not a dedicated thrower. Here is an idea, people crying about cav, just bump throwing damage back up and you wont see as many.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 25, 2012, 03:04:32 pm
I actually got something to say about this.. I made a 10pt thrower with jarids, compared to when i did it probably 4 months ago it is totally changed. Archers do more damage to you riding at them than my jarids seem to do. I hit a guy on horseback riding full speed at me 3 times to kill him. Ive hit the same people 4 or 5 times to kill them. Well there is almost half my ammo i carry right there haha. I would say the damage or something is a bit nerfed and im not a dedicated thrower. Here is an idea, people crying about cav, just bump throwing damage back up and you wont see as many.

a pure thrower is still a good cav counter if equipped with trowing lances, but you have only four lances and i dont know much pure throwers out there on EU (stone cold and a 22nd). this is not enough to stop cav just crashing in a mob with no fear..
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leshma on March 25, 2012, 03:04:52 pm
Throwing isn't terrible. I have 65 HP and 73 BA. Average arrow take away 15-20% of my HP, bolt fired from arbalest from 50-80%, single javelin about 30% and it is usually thrown by hybrid throwers who probably don't have more than 6 PT. So, it's not true that throwing is underpowered compared to other ranged options.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Thomek on March 25, 2012, 03:33:06 pm
Throwing is almost ok. Could need a slight damage buff, but not a lot.

Main deal with throwing is ammo count, which makes it unique and interesting to play with. I go with three mw jarids and 8mw snowflakes. The jarids serve as anti-cav or cav detterent, allowing me to go alone on flanks without support. The snowflakes work against xbowers and making archers nervous, stopping them from running away and reloading.

Most unarmored horses go down with 1 headshot, but that's not an easy feat, and you always risk bump damage or missing (which means certain death). You have to stand still to get the accuracy required, and throw the jarid at the very last moment.

Before the last nerf I could aim for the rider, and be pretty sure he would be dead, but not anymore. They survive in 80% of the cases.

I miss that.. Especially with the last cav-influx throwing could use a slight buff. 10% to damage!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 25, 2012, 04:59:18 pm
Okay, I've got to state that all you people that are complaining that 100 WPF isn't enough, or that they have more WPF in a melee weapon; GTFO with your wine and cheese! You know how much WPF an archer puts into archery? ALL of it! For them to be accurate AT RANGE (I'm not talking about 20 feet in front of you, I'm talking about at the weapons intended range of 100 yards or more) they pour everything into WPF for archery and if they go too high on PD and not WM, their shots will still be somewhat randomized by the reticule even with smaller bows like the Tatar or Horn ( and don't even talk about the Longbow).

When you start coming in here and describing your experience as being shitty with 145+ WPF, then I'll be willing to listen to how inaccurate it is. Until then, I've lost my sympathy for the great majority of the complainers in this thread.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 25, 2012, 06:35:39 pm
i have more wpf in throwing then any wpf in a melee class and im still a bit meh about it's accuracy...

but it's ok, you never had much of my sympathy either, you cant compare archery and throwing...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on March 25, 2012, 06:52:56 pm
Okay, I've got to state that all you people that are complaining that 100 WPF isn't enough, or that they have more WPF in a melee weapon; GTFO with your wine and cheese! You know how much WPF an archer puts into archery? ALL of it! For them to be accurate AT RANGE (I'm not talking about 20 feet in front of you, I'm talking about at the weapons intended range of 100 yards or more) they pour everything into WPF for archery and if they go too high on PD and not WM, their shots will still be somewhat randomized by the reticule even with smaller bows like the Tatar or Horn ( and don't even talk about the Longbow).

When you start coming in here and describing your experience as being shitty with 145+ WPF, then I'll be willing to listen to how inaccurate it is. Until then, I've lost my sympathy for the great majority of the complainers in this thread.

yep and you can hit a target @ 50-100+ yards, we cant even hit a target 5yards away half the time.  we're comparing throwing as a 2ndary weapon like the xbow, which is obviously still overpowered and needs more nerfing.  either require power draw, make all the xbows unsheathable, etc
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gurnisson on March 25, 2012, 08:04:43 pm
we're comparing throwing as a 2ndary weapon like the xbow, which is obviously still overpowered and needs more nerfing.  either require power draw, make all the xbows unsheathable, etc

Crossbows are by no means overpowered and throwing is not underpowered. They're both two valid options that does its different jobs quite well. Archery on the other hand, that's another case. That's the only ranged class that can be called overpowered. Mabye not by that much, but it's still a lot better choice than dedicated throwing/xbow.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Life on March 25, 2012, 09:06:28 pm
i play as a pure thrower, with my special OP build, i do fine, i often get compliments by other throwers as well as the people i kill, one of which is Chestacles (:

 i sometimes 1 shot people (light armor) and 2 shot archers and medium armor. with heavy armor players like plate or heraldic, they can take 2 or 3 lances in them and sometimes theyll have 3 in them and still be alive, but the 4th one surely takes them out.

The only buff that i see necessary is the accuracy. i have 120 wpf. a small buff to accuracy would be amazing.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on March 25, 2012, 09:37:08 pm
You know how much WPF an archer puts into archery? ALL of it!

And I would seriously consider putting all of my WPF into throwing if I was able to run around with 25 heavy throwing axes the way you can run around with 45 bodkin arrows.

Throwing is a hybrid ability.  That's how it's used in native and that's what makes sense given the severe ammo limits.  Making someone have over 100 wpf in throwing in order to utilize PT 5 in medium armor doesn't give them a lot of strong options.

There are "pure throwers" out there but I never see them topping the charts.  How many times have I seen Chucky get cut down because he's running around trying to find something else to throw...


Archery makes sense as a dedicated build.
"Thrower" really doesn't.  Thrower makes sense as a hybrid build but current formulas discourage all hybrids.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 25, 2012, 10:35:10 pm
throwing lance has 156 accuracy

standing still, throwing at 15 feet at an immobile archer, only one out of 4 lances hit

accuracy is pretty derp...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Wraist on March 25, 2012, 10:36:21 pm
throwing lance has 156 accuracy

standing still, throwing at 15 feet at an immobile archer, only one out of 4 lances hit

accuracy is pretty derp...

Throwing lances are terrible compared to every other throwing weapon. The rest are fine imo.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 26, 2012, 01:13:50 am
You guys want to be hybrids, then you don't need the accuracy or the ammo increase. Archers used to be able to effectively hybrid and got nerfed into the dust until they can't wear armor, they can't use anything other than a 1hander with a small bow if they want to be an archer with ammo, or a 0 slot mostly useless 1 hander if they want to use a big boy bow. (not to mention it is no longer worth it to get any athletics at all. Just convert those skills into attributes and get another PD or WM point)

If you want to be an actual Thrower (which so far I haven't seen a single one say that they are), then put all of your WPF into throwing, and then lobby for increased ammo for it. If there is a thrower out there that has 150 WPF and still can't hit with the mid-range throwing weapons, then I would agree to an accuracy increase. Otherwise, no, I don't want to see throwers as the all effective melee and ranged battlefield Rambo's. We already removed that option for one class and I see no reason to make it viable for a different one.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 26, 2012, 01:28:34 am
a pure thrower is still a good cav counter if equipped with trowing lances, but you have only four lances and i dont know much pure throwers out there on EU (stone cold and a 22nd). this is not enough to stop cav just crashing in a mob with no fear..
Fuck you for forgetting about me...  :cry: (give me those masterwork throwing lances or I'll never forgive you)
Throwing lances are terrible compared to every other throwing weapon. The rest are fine imo.
You're wrong as fuck, as a HT I chose throwing lances over jarids, accuracy is way better, arch is way more userfriendly, and damage is not bad...
Also: My personal take on balancing throwing as a nearly-pure thrower (yeah, I'm a HT mostly, but yeah).
See, what Rumblood doesn't understand is that throwing IS the hybrid-melee ranged class...
If I go 150throwing wpf 90% of the tricks I use to get targets to not dodge will be invalid, I won't stand a chance in melee, and finally then it won't help much on accuracy.
Unlike most players (or what I assume based on the two pages I've read is most players opinion  :mrgreen: ) opinion I say that throwing should keep it's accuracy, it should however be given 1,3 ammo for every weapon, have archs of certain weapons be adjusted so that they are more situational (throwing axes looping over shields and into the shielders, while I believe throwing lances and jarids and spears should have a very straight arch), and finally buff damage 25-30%. I also believe in buffing HTs in some way (we're the only horse-ranged NEVER being bitches about, and I know only me and Lorenzo on EU) damage related... throwing was not meant to be headshot-aiming shit, IMO it was meant to be having a hard time hitting the person you're aiming at from the distance an archer has a somewhat hard time headshotting... and it was meant to have a capable melee sidearm...
(archery should be given the choice of better weapons in exchange for not being able to eternally run IMO)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 26, 2012, 01:29:26 am
RUmblood, that is what the maker of this topic is. ALL WPF in throwing. dedicated thrower.
it is shit tier accuracy. There is nowhere near the benefit to it like there is for archery.
The problem is that it is ALSO now bad damage, so you have low ammo, Low accuracy, meh damage.
Increase the accuracy so we can have a more skill-based throwing and aim for heads.

Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 26, 2012, 01:50:42 am
Throwing isn't terrible. I have 65 HP and 73 BA. Average arrow take away 15-20% of my HP, bolt fired from arbalest from 50-80%, single javelin about 30% and it is usually thrown by hybrid throwers who probably don't have more than 6 PT. So, it's not true that throwing is underpowered compared to other ranged options.
Arrow=NEVER MORE THAN 6PD=15-20%=better accuracy and way more shots
Jav=Mostly between 5 and 7pt=30%=way less ammo, way worse accuracy=Leshma be bullshittin' sayin' throwing isn't up.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 26, 2012, 03:25:34 am
RUmblood, that is what the maker of this topic is. ALL WPF in throwing. dedicated thrower.
it is shit tier accuracy. There is nowhere near the benefit to it like there is for archery.
The problem is that it is ALSO now bad damage, so you have low ammo, Low accuracy, meh damage.
Increase the accuracy so we can have a more skill-based throwing and aim for heads.

No, the hybrids are glomming on to his statement about accuracy without paying attention to his entire statement. He says he doesn't have enough accuracy to headshot for the damage it does. So accuracy isn't the issue except for the cries from the hybrids who think that 100 WPF should be pinpoint accurate anywhere they throw. If you really think you should have enough accuracy at 100 WPF to headshot everyone in range, you guys are insane. Even archers can't reliably do it with people dodging left and right and cavalry on the move.

Increase ammo, and adjust damage accordingly. But I am never going to support being able to headshot with 3 of 4 axes every time.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Thomek on March 26, 2012, 03:28:48 am
I wouldn't mind an accuracy buff..
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: IG_Saint on March 26, 2012, 06:21:45 am
If you want to be an actual Thrower (which so far I haven't seen a single one say that they are), then put all of your WPF into throwing, and then lobby for increased ammo for it. If there is a thrower out there that has 150 WPF and still can't hit with the mid-range throwing weapons, then I would agree to an accuracy increase. Otherwise, no, I don't want to see throwers as the all effective melee and ranged battlefield Rambo's. We already removed that option for one class and I see no reason to make it viable for a different one.

I made a STF char, but I've had some hybrid and pure thrower alts before:
   
    Strength: 21
    Agility: 18

    Power Strike: 4
    Athletics: 6
    Power Throw: 7
    Weapon Master: 6

    Throwing: 156

Accuracy is still all over the place, one moment you'll make a perfect throw over 20 meters, the next you'll miss from 2. The worst part is it isn't that much more accurate than say 125 wpf, there's still a massive random element in every throw. Then there's the always fun part of running out of ammo long before you run out of enemies and having to use some random melee weapon of the ground with 1 wpf and 4 ps. Pure throwers really could use a buff.

That said, hybrid throwers really DON'T need a buff. I remember when hybrid throwers were most popular and at their strongest. I really don't want to see that again. The bolded part from rumblood's post sums it up quite nicely.

So unless someone can come up with a way to buff pure throwers without buffing hybrids, I say leave them as they are.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Cyclopsided on March 26, 2012, 10:06:10 am
So unless someone can come up with a way to buff pure throwers without buffing hybrids, I say leave them as they are.
again, wpf increasing accuracy
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 26, 2012, 10:11:31 am
Rumblood, there's something you don't get (or even two)

Once again you compare throwing to archery which, de facto, make your points mostly invalid.
While with archery you can just stand away from melee pewpew 30 arrows or 60 if you dont take a decent melee weapon and just run when ever things get out of controle, throwing is something complelty different.
A pure thrower will more likely take throwing lances, you get four (and playing this class is actually causing me to get raped by upkeep...). You have to use them wisely, no foolish throwing, no throwing to this random cav passing a mile from you, no throwing towards this lonely archer, no throwing on shielders(even though it does pretty good damage to the shield you'v pretty much wasted 25% of your potential), when your team get pushed backwards, the missed lance throws lands behind enemy lines and there's no getting them back immediatly in the best case scenario (or just hope there's a pure thrower on the enemy team that will kindly throw them back over, but if that's zlisch there's more chance he keeps my masterwork stuff).
All this to say you have to be really selective on your targets : tincans maulers blocking a stairway (Gnjus), an old hag swinging her sword wildly (Leshma) or cav thinking your an easy target and try to couch you (my favorite!)

So, yea, let's say youv just spammed your stuff to enemy, what now? there's still 4 minuts in the battle and you'r empty handed, at best you find some throwing weapons on the floor, you'r more likely fall on heavy throwing axes, jarids if you'r lucky...
(and then next round kicks in the super awesome bug where you spawn with 3 javelins, 3 heavy throwing axes, 8 darts and a throwing lances! Huzzah!)

or you pick up a weapon in the battlefield and that's what's going to happen most of the time (because i can assure you, you'll never find enough throwing stuff on the floor to fill up your slots)
Throwing is no long distance range, you have to get up close and personnal if you wish to hit anything, and things get pretty dirty, quite often, very soon. there's no safe distance pew pewing, and there's absolutly no advantage in doing it.
There kicks in another fact, i believe, IMHO, that it is uttterly retarded to go pure pure thrower. you'll be in combat far more then archers will be, archers will be pew pewing far form the melee and running when needed(running is good when you still have ammo left...), having  melee perks in their build is not necessary. With throwing it is, you have to get some powerstrike in (i have 4) and wpf (90) in order to survive, in polearms, because throwing lances do a really decent polearm, because the melee will very likely catch you up
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: kinngrimm on March 26, 2012, 10:39:13 am
...

If you want to be an actual Thrower (which so far I haven't seen a single one say that they are), then put all of your WPF into throwing, and then lobby for increased ammo for it. If there is a thrower out there that has 150 WPF and still can't hit with the mid-range throwing weapons, then I would agree to an accuracy increase. Otherwise, no, I don't want to see throwers as the all effective melee and ranged battlefield Rambo's. We already removed that option for one class and I see no reason to make it viable for a different one.
that would be my alt 4t generation, 153 wpf,

to hit stuff at a 50% chance i need to get within 10m range.[edit: and not moving myself at the time i throw]
I only wear light gear but will always be a target for the melee dudes as i need to be that close to them
So while concentrating to release at the time when they are positioned right(not a friend in between, shield down, moving straight towards or from me) and looking out not to get pick up from cav at the same time or shot to peaces from archers as throwers never will stand too close to some of their own so they don't get mingled with their fighting but take advantage of others who are occupied fighting, while all that and more there is at best a 50% chance to hit stuff ...

Then still sometimes i got killstrikes there too, but only when using jarrids sofar, having 10-16 kills after a map, but that is rare for me at least as thrower. So while i would like to be able to hit stuff more accuratly, i do remember how it was when Throwing was OP and i don't wanna be there again ... I think the dedicated thrower deserves some love, while the hybrids should just pick up their stuff and throw again. My main class is shielder, and mate it is way easier to be a dedicated shielder then a freakin dedicated thrower

Javalins ... 3/4 of the dmg of Jarrids, same ammount of amo 3 per slot, should be 4
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leshma on March 26, 2012, 12:39:06 pm
I'm against throwing buff because I still remember how that looks like. I was thrower 15-16 months ago (january 2011.) when throwing was "buffed". Let's just say that almost 80% of the server was throwing something and that me, with only 8 PT was able to one hit everyone and everything. People I couldn't kill before, I easily put down with just one javelin. That month is the reason why throwing should never become "viable".

I really think that having 5-10% throwers on the server is more than enough. If only that was the case with other ranged classes...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vexus on March 26, 2012, 12:46:43 pm
Make wpf increase the accuracy when moving, throwers should be the most proficient in throwing while moving not having to stand still.

They have low ammunition give them something that can help them.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on March 26, 2012, 05:04:09 pm
Rumblood, there's something you don't get (or even two)

No, I get it. I already said to increase ammo and adjust damage accordingly. I will not support an accuracy increase for less than 140 WPF, except perhaps for the following, which is not a blanket accuracy increase.

Make wpf increase the accuracy when moving, throwers should be the most proficient in throwing while moving not having to stand still.

Have it kick in after 125 WPF. Before that, you move, you suck.

Increase ammo for throwers, and adjust the damage accordingly (which may mean a slight damage decrease on the high end weapons, leaving the low end damage alone)

There are two lobby's here. Pure Throwers for whom I have the utmost sympathy.

And the Hybrid wannabe's are are trying to ride the coattails of those legitimate requests to get their build turned into something OP without suffering any penalties for being a hybrid build.

Hybrids can GTFO  :shock:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vexus on March 26, 2012, 06:49:42 pm
I had a pure thrower but even with high wpf in throwing the accuracy is still off.

Problem with throwing is, if it's over buffed people will remove IF for power throw. Wouldn't really like to happen something like long ago, 95% of the players had throwing weapons which was VERY annoying.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: IG_Saint on March 26, 2012, 07:08:00 pm
again, wpf increasing accuracy

I'm not sure if this can be done. I was under the impression that a lot of the wpf stuff is hardcoded and very complicated. If it can be done that more than 130 wpf increases accuracy significantly more than before 130 wpf, I'd be all for that, but it sounds needlessly complicated. Rumblood's ammo increase and damage adjustment sounds best tbh. Pure throwers will benefit more from that than hybrids, thanks to more wpf and pt, hopefully leading to a small damage buff for pures, while not really affecting hybrids.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on March 26, 2012, 07:19:23 pm
event though a slight buff would be nice, i dont beliive it urgently needs  fixing
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on April 02, 2012, 12:13:17 am
You guys want to be hybrids, then you don't need the accuracy or the ammo increase. Archers used to be able to effectively hybrid and got nerfed into the dust until they can't wear armor, they can't use anything other than a 1hander with a small bow if they want to be an archer with ammo, or a 0 slot mostly useless 1 hander if they want to use a big boy bow. (not to mention it is no longer worth it to get any athletics at all. Just convert those skills into attributes and get another PD or WM point)

If you want to be an actual Thrower (which so far I haven't seen a single one say that they are), then put all of your WPF into throwing, and then lobby for increased ammo for it. If there is a thrower out there that has 150 WPF and still can't hit with the mid-range throwing weapons, then I would agree to an accuracy increase. Otherwise, no, I don't want to see throwers as the all effective melee and ranged battlefield Rambo's. We already removed that option for one class and I see no reason to make it viable for a different one.

I have 156 wp in throwing. Even at close range it can be extremely difficult to hit moving targets. It's actually more discouraging having to hit heavy armor five or  six times to kill than it is to not be able to headshot.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Life on April 02, 2012, 01:37:31 am
I have 156 wp in throwing. Even at close range it can be extremely difficult to hit moving targets. It's actually more discouraging having to hit heavy armor five or  six times to kill than it is to not be able to headshot.

so true. he was throwin all his shit into me, me wearing light armor, and we were 5 feet away having a throwing fight and it took longer than youd think.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 02, 2012, 04:38:31 am
so true. he was throwin all his shit into me, me wearing light armor, and we were 5 feet away having a throwing fight and it took longer than youd think.

Your point? I've seen archers 25 feet apart doing the same thing.  :|
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Life on April 02, 2012, 01:26:30 pm
Your point? I've seen archers 25 feet apart doing the same thing.  :|
we were both hitting eachother, both wearing light armor. he wasnt doing much damage to me.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 02, 2012, 05:50:08 pm
we were both hitting eachother, both wearing light armor. he wasnt doing much damage to me.

Okay.....you do realize that you are describing a damage issue, not a WPF/Accuracy issue right?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 02, 2012, 06:41:36 pm
i swear i throw just to see it go through people, am i going mad?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SirProto on April 02, 2012, 07:07:14 pm
i swear i throw just to see it go through people, am i going mad?

My wardarts just seem to fly through peoples faces so i don't bother with trying to get  headshots anymore :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 02, 2012, 07:49:40 pm
i swear i throw just to see it go through people, am i going mad?

Nope. It happens with arrows too. Melee have seen their weapons *apparently go through people as well. No idea what the dealio is with it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on April 04, 2012, 08:26:59 pm
Buff throwing.


I suggest a simple increase in ammo.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Leshma on April 04, 2012, 10:47:56 pm
Throwing is pretty strong. Buff denied!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ROHYPNOL on April 08, 2012, 02:30:44 am
buff throwing +3
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 08, 2012, 03:13:25 am
I would say an increase in damage is what throwing needs, quantity is for archery.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on April 08, 2012, 03:33:21 am
I would say an increase in damage is what throwing needs, quantity is for archery.
Even with double the ammo they have now, they wouldn't catch up with archers in maximum possible damage (all ammo spent and hit). Buffing the damage would just make people complain about the damage (in many cases, justified) and hybrids would get more from it (hah! I do more damage with that one axe I throw before I start meleeing!), while a buff to ammo would mean more to pure throwers than hybrids.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: amsoly on April 08, 2012, 06:48:45 am
Why don't we start by adding an incremental change in throwing quantity?  Instead of 3 throwing axes per stack, make it 4.  Move on from there until there seems to be some semblance of balance?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on April 08, 2012, 08:27:01 am
Why don't we start by adding an incremental change in throwing quantity?  Instead of 3 throwing axes per stack, make it 4.  Move on from there until there seems to be some semblance of balance?

dont need ammo or dmg increase, need semi/quasi/pseudo accuracy increase
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Wraist on April 08, 2012, 09:05:08 am
dont need ammo or dmg increase, need semi/quasi/pseudo accuracy increase

When I was using Jarids, I had pretty decent accuracy, as in first shot to gauge where I was aiming, and the next two to plant in the guy. My throwing accuracy with jarids is superior to my archery accuracy with roughly the same wpf.

And I said that the throwing lances sucked in comparison to every other throwing weapon because they typically didn't 1shot, had worse actual accuracy ime, and have the least amount of ammo by far. Of course, I only do ranged hybrids, so I wouldn't know what a pure thrower would say [Artie thinks lances suck too last I asked].
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 08, 2012, 12:05:06 pm
wraist,, there isnt more accuracy then archers.
throwing lances are better then any other throwing weapons out there, i guess you didnt use them correclty, i could top the scoreboards with them

oh yea, last night this weaboo in heavy strange armor took 4 of my masterwork jarids (6 pt 120 wpf) and was still up and running! WTF
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Renten on April 08, 2012, 08:06:43 pm
Someone should take a picture of 120wpf/150wpf throwing accuracy. Then show a picture of 0wpf crossbow accuracy.

Other things to note, the 3rd person aiming reticule is much higher than the actual throw. First person is the way to go for accuracy unless you just throw by instinct.

Actually I went ahead and did the 120wpf + 0wpf crossbow ones. Naked throwing for reference of what my weight does. Others done in same gear.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: San on April 08, 2012, 10:05:10 pm
It'd be nice if devs could fix the useless throwing weapons (throwing star series, looking at you) and make more of them viable.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SirProto on April 08, 2012, 10:18:37 pm
I made a STF alt it 3 PT and 175 WPF in throwing and with snowflakes it's still pretty inaccurate  :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on April 08, 2012, 10:23:50 pm
It'd be nice if devs could fix the useless throwing weapons (throwing star series, looking at you) and make more of them viable.
I don't think they are useless, not when a ninja is throwing them up on me. I guess, their adventage is the fast rate of throwing.

Seriously, throwing is something that requires some kind of different skills to master. After all those discussions, I will be a thrower next gen and test it out myself; as a very skilled thrower myself in native. No I am not exaggarating. I am seriously good with throwings. I hella am.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 08, 2012, 11:31:19 pm
It'd be nice if devs could fix the useless throwing weapons (throwing star series, looking at you) and make more of them viable.

your post made me try them out.

it was an overfail
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ROHYPNOL on April 09, 2012, 12:05:25 am
lol i made a stf with 10pt with jarids and did a test in duel server on a strong guy on horseback running at me full speed.. i hit him 3 times while riding at me and he was still alive.. now really talk about wtf.. guessing each last was doing a little under a 3rd of damage on him.. must of been really strong tho
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MCake_JL on April 09, 2012, 01:00:57 am
As a hybrid thrower, I think throwing is strong enough for its purposes.

Rather using throwing to kill, it's mainly for weakening the enemy, staggering so they get killed by someone else, killing weakened enemies or hunting down those that are running away.

I actually think that throwing requires more skill only because it is inaccurate, the art is to hit the enemy without it being accurate - and going for headshots is still completely possible. What I would suggest is adding more damage but making it less accurate. That way the skillful throwers will fare better than less skillful ones and people will spam throw less.

(Skill as in being able to get closer to target and leave again, prediction of where people will dodge -> note that due to the randomness of dodging, a perfect aiming throw might not even be that good, instead it is somewhat a skill to use the randomness to counter to another randomness)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 09, 2012, 01:51:53 am
mkcake

no, it inaccurate enough,it takes a lot of skill to kill cav(except cav direct charging you), i believe dont need to make it worse, damage output is imo fine.

and as pure thrower its still not very acurate...

Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on April 09, 2012, 06:25:40 am
you guys must be hitting horses in the legs which reduces ranged damage or something buggy about pierce dmg to horses.  NH uses heavy axes and pretty much any unarmored horse charging at us dies in 1-2 axes
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Turboflex on April 09, 2012, 06:50:23 am
as a hybrid thrower overall at the moment I think throwing is a worthy investment if you are good enough at footwork and timing to work with 100-120 melee wpf. You give up very expensive WPF past that point, and some IF, to get 5 PT and 100 or so WPF throwing.

For that relatively small price you can still wear medium armor, get to add a lot of versatility and fun to your gameplay. It gives you the ability to bring down horses, and kill runners and kiting archers, and pop 2h guys with weapons like jarid/heavy axe that have the stopping power to weaken them/force them to close range,. overall a solid trade.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: To Kill A Dead Horse on April 09, 2012, 07:31:45 am
This nerf, ruins me.
Velocity is to low.
Weapons, made from foam.

*Haikiu*

It sucks having to get used to a new velocity when trying to hit people.
But seriously, people like me who run around with 9-10 PT get throwing nerfed.
9PT and a throwing lance won't 1 shotmost people anymore. (9 pt, 138 wpf)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on April 09, 2012, 09:59:02 am
you guys must be hitting horses in the legs which reduces ranged damage or something buggy about pierce dmg to horses.  NH uses heavy axes and pretty much any unarmored horse charging at us dies in 1-2 axes

Yeah, that's 90% of the usefulness of throwing.  I will throw at people if there's a good opportunity but due to low accuracy (and low ammo) I find it's best used on horses.

It is good at that, though.

If this game had no cav, I can't imagine a use for throwing.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on April 09, 2012, 10:33:25 am
One thing they could do to buff pure throwers without helping hybrids is add higher ammo variants at higher PT levels.  I don't know that it would necessarily "make sense" but you could have PT 8 throwing spears that come in packs of 8.  Anything over 6 is pretty inaccessible for hybrids.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MCake_JL on April 09, 2012, 05:37:53 pm
mkcake

no, it inaccurate enough,it takes a lot of skill to kill cav(except cav direct charging you), i believe dont need to make it worse, damage output is imo fine.

and as pure thrower its still not very acurate...

To be honest, I don't think accuracy has too much a correlation with hitting the cav.

Since the way with hitting the horse/horseman is waiting until the very last moment, until you have a biggest target as possible - hence at that time a difference in accuracy shouldn't affect it too much. The important issues is more not freaking out, and waiting till the last second possible, rather than the accuracy, imo.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 09, 2012, 05:54:11 pm
I find it funny, most people ('cept cav my old friends, rumblood, the devs (  :cry: ) and some inmy old friendtry) agree throwing needs a buff, but no one can agree on what it should be, I support a damage buff to throwing lance, considering it's ammo I do believe most shields should get onehit, and ALL BUT THE 10if 30str melee'rs in heavy armor should do the same... It'd mean a max of four kills per round without looting other people's gear as a pure thrower (same max as now) but it'd be a lot different in how often you hit with all four throws and still get 0-1 kill, for jarids-spears-axes-javs I believe 1+ ammo for each would be suitable, for the lower tire weapons I suggest throwing-speed and damage (and for some 1 or 2 extra throws)... Overall I do believe accuracy in general is fine, I ain't half as inaccurate as most people claim, around 95% of my throws go nearly 99% the same way, the other 5% are flying in a totally different direction, and I'm a HT, 90% of my throws are while moving, at 120 wpf, both on and off horse I can throw while moving fine (easier off-horse), throwers should also be allowed to wear armor without damage nerfs (on my archer with 120 wpf and 4pd I wear slightly bellow heavy armor (including a helmet), on my 7pt main HT with 120wpf I can wear a cav rope, and sarranid boots, can't even wear my fucking lichina helmet or whatever it's called.)...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 09, 2012, 08:40:00 pm
To be honest, I don't think accuracy has too much a correlation with hitting the cav.

Since the way with hitting the horse/horseman is waiting until the very last moment, until you have a biggest target as possible - hence at that time a difference in accuracy shouldn't affect it too much. The important issues is more not freaking out, and waiting till the last second possible, rather than the accuracy, imo.

i think there is a large difference in playstyles here.

I dont aim just for the cav that straight charges me anymore, i also go for the cav riding by, and that takes quite a bit of skill beleive me, so no dont reduce accuracy
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on April 09, 2012, 09:08:30 pm
Also when you consider throwing as a "counter" to HX and HA, they aren't going to get near you, so accuracy is a big deal.

I have an HX alt that's level 21 and he's already stupid-accurate from horseback.  With the horse not moving he's practically firing a laser.  No amount of throwing proficiency can compete with that.

Also, the whole point of throwing as a counter instead of pikes is that you can hit them even if they aren't coming straight at you.  If accuracy was reduced, I might as well drop throwing and pick up a sharpened stick instead.


I also think throwing took an unfair nerf when they made arm hits do significantly less damage.  Since our targeting reticle is already larger than a horse at modest distances, it's not like we can "aim for the head" or even "aim for the torso".  We are happy to hit you at all and a lot of those end up being arm hits, which do almost nothing.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on April 09, 2012, 11:05:56 pm
I find it funny, most people ('cept cav my old friends, rumblood, the devs (  :cry: ) and some inmy old friendtry) agree throwing needs a buff, but no one can agree on what it should be, I support a damage buff to throwing lance, considering it's ammo I do believe most shields should get onehit, and ALL BUT THE 10if 30str melee'rs in heavy armor should do the same... It'd mean a max of four kills per round without looting other people's gear as a pure thrower (same max as now) but it'd be a lot different in how often you hit with all four throws and still get 0-1 kill, for jarids-spears-axes-javs I believe 1+ ammo for each would be suitable, for the lower tire weapons I suggest throwing-speed and damage (and for some 1 or 2 extra throws)... Overall I do believe accuracy in general is fine, I ain't half as inaccurate as most people claim, around 95% of my throws go nearly 99% the same way, the other 5% are flying in a totally different direction, and I'm a HT, 90% of my throws are while moving, at 120 wpf, both on and off horse I can throw while moving fine (easier off-horse), throwers should also be allowed to wear armor without damage nerfs (on my archer with 120 wpf and 4pd I wear slightly bellow heavy armor (including a helmet), on my 7pt main HT with 120wpf I can wear a cav rope, and sarranid boots, can't even wear my fucking lichina helmet or whatever it's called.)...

Because every time a throwing axe does 90 percent of my horse's HP with a body hit while I'm riding away from them or when full plate throwing lance players headshot me from 30 feet away or just throw axes/jarids for over half my HP each I think to myself "boy this class is underpowereD"

When throwing was at its most popular like 8 months ago this game was seriously the worst it ever was, it should never be viable for everyone to be a hybrid thrower outputting incredible damage with fine close/medium accuracy and easily replenishible ammo.  No ranged classes need buffs in the state of this mod, if anything they need nerfs.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on April 09, 2012, 11:19:02 pm
Because every time a throwing axe does 90 percent of my horse's HP with a body hit while I'm riding away from them or when full plate throwing lance players headshot me from 30 feet away or just throw axes/jarids for over half my HP each I think to myself "boy this class is underpowereD"

When throwing was at its most popular like 8 months ago this game was seriously the worst it ever was, it should never be viable for everyone to be a hybrid thrower outputting incredible damage with fine close/medium accuracy and easily replenishible ammo.  No ranged classes need buffs in the state of this mod, if anything they need nerfs.
I agree and disagree with you. Long story short; Nerf archers, buff throwing.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 10, 2012, 02:37:14 am
Because every time a throwing axe does 90 percent of my horse's HP with a body hit while I'm riding away from them or when full plate throwing lance players headshot me from 30 feet away or just throw axes/jarids for over half my HP each I think to myself "boy this class is underpowereD"

When throwing was at its most popular like 8 months ago this game was seriously the worst it ever was, it should never be viable for everyone to be a hybrid thrower outputting incredible damage with fine close/medium accuracy and easily replenishible ammo.  No ranged classes need buffs in the state of this mod, if anything they need nerfs.
With the throwing axe story I'd like to hear what horse you were using (and you sure as hell weren't riding away from them for this to happen.) I stand infront of my stillstanding steppe horse on the duel server, I throw two throwing lances into the front of it's body, it first dies after the second throw, now axes, with about 2/3 of the damage take 90% of your horse (with NEGATIVE speed bonus) health in one fucking shot, sorry to call your bullshit here. When I'm in melee and cav comes by and oneshots me do I think "boy this class is underpowered", yes, I do, I do however believe that there are way to many cav-my old friend inmy old friendtry hybrids and sometimes cav (hybrids) are topping 50% of all the servers players(I was calling this a lie at first, but the cav-inmy old friendtry hybrids grow every day), but they aren't OP, believe it or not, but it takes more skill (or extreme luck) for a throwing lancer to headshot you from 30 feet away than it does for a my old friendcher to shot you from near any lengths due to a far more noticeable arch, and some slight inaccuracy. Also: Things it takes to use an arbalist properly which can effectively oneshot, 3 slots, 0 wpf, what it takes to be a "hybrid thrower" (which you seem to forget is the main thing throwing is built for) is however 100 wpf (you also gotta be naked here), 5-7 skill points, and 3-4 slots... and you know what it takes to be an effective cav? 3 skill points and a heavy lance...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on April 10, 2012, 08:22:41 am
Cav complaining about throwers is like a fat kid complaining that someone ate a piece of his cake.  You're already frequently the highest scorers in any match.  What more do you want?  I'm just happy I can occasionally kill a horse so you end up 20-1 for the map rather than 40-0.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vexus on April 10, 2012, 10:48:43 am
You sure the throwing axe didn't hit your horse legs? you know they got severely nerfed right?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on April 10, 2012, 12:46:32 pm
Increased leg damage is only for melee weapons, actually

Most (loomed) rus bow archers take off nearly half of a champion destriers HP with negative speed bonus with body shots, and some throwers, especially with the axes, black bar heavily armored infantry or heavy horses with hilarious ease with a single toss.  The good throwers I see have plenty of ammo until the end of the round, scavenging ammo all over the battlefield and 2 shotting any class all match long.

It's not like I'm making this shit up.  It happens every time I play, as cav or thrower or archer, and its by far the most unfun part of this game.  Though I think Rus Bow archery is way more OP then anything else in the game and hardly anyone speaks up about it, and think throwing is just really strong if anything, but maybe not OP.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Turboflex on April 10, 2012, 05:34:52 pm
Hard to take you seriously complaining about "OP" "unfun" stuff when you are a guy who consistenly does well in charts playing one of the most OP classes in the game (cav), a class that relies on attacking distracted people from behind for unopposed kills (something most people consider "unfun"), and now you're here complaining about the only active defences people have against cav backstabbers (ranged attacks), and using wildly exaggerated #s ?? 90% for a negative speed bonus axe hit??? it takes 2-4 of those to drop a horse, even when horse charges me and I nail it full speed, point blank it doesn't drop 1 shot unless I hit it's absurdly miniscule head box. Meanwhile Mr. Horselancer will drop me 1-shot, with a nonheadshot, in my decent 60ish armor.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: MCake_JL on April 10, 2012, 07:15:36 pm
Hard to take you seriously complaining about "OP" "unfun" stuff when you are a guy who consistenly does well in charts playing one of the most OP classes in the game (cav), a class that relies on attacking distracted people from behind for unopposed kills (something most people consider "unfun"), and now you're here complaining about the only active defences people have against cav backstabbers (ranged attacks), and using wildly exaggerated #s ?? 90% for a negative speed bonus axe hit??? it takes 2-4 of those to drop a horse, even when horse charges me and I nail it full speed, point blank it doesn't drop 1 shot unless I hit it's absurdly miniscule head box. Meanwhile Mr. Horselancer will drop me 1-shot, with a nonheadshot, in my decent 60ish armor.

Usually headshot 1 hit kills ~ the problem isnt the hit box, it's easy enough to hit a charging horses head.

The problem is with the time it doesn't 1 hit kill; since you score an awesome headshot into a horse - which doesn't affect it anyhow, and the sword or lance kills you instantly -> that kind of sucks. But aim for the body instead, it's do-able.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 10, 2012, 07:47:24 pm
cav avoids thrower, problem solved, not like we can chase you accros the map

oh yea the 80% damage on your horse when running away, i call BS
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: ROHYPNOL on April 11, 2012, 02:44:44 am
i still think throwing is a bit underpowered and can use a slight damage buff.. smooth for you to say a thrower can blackbar your heavy horse with a single toss is way funny unless it hits it in the head.. and this is a throwing thread not a rus bow thread.. its obvious that bows do way more damage than anything else anyway.. and no thowers do not 2 shot any build.. ive layed 5 jarids into these tanks and they still standing and thats almost half the ammo at 10 pt.. its underpowered compared to a lot of things.. and a buff to it would be awesome, expecially to cut back on all these damn lancers.. i would love to see more cav drop.. would make them be a lot more smart instead of charging in teambumping and killing just to try and scrounge for a kdr
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Smoothrich on April 11, 2012, 03:16:55 am
I don't think pierce damage throwing weapons are really that powerful at all, and things like the lance are balanced.  Its just the high cut shit like the heavy throwing axes that I think do way too much damage.  Urist/Paul changed the soak values for cut throwing weapons to be like it was before armor got nerfed so they would end up doing more damage because throwers complained that class of weapon was useless, so gimmick PT stacked builds + high cut throwing weapons + the sheer randomness of ranged damage calculation in the game + speed bonus fuckery = a bizarrely high frequency of throwing weapons doing 70-100 HP worth of damage.  I admit its not consistent or always, but I have certainly had cataphracts lose like 70 percent of their HP to body shots before.  Yes they don't get black barred or one shotted unless its a head shot, but ~100 damage is easily in the realm of probability against a moving target.  I swear riding away from throwers sometimes increases the damage as if you are riding towards them or something or just gets RNG'd to be high as hell no matter what.

i'm not a sperg or developer so I don't know the formulas but heavy throwing axes do 44 base damage.. powerthrow is let say, 14 percent damage bonus?  10 powerthrow.  About 70 base damage, am i right?  Ignoring a good chunk of armor due to the old soak values and that will black bar medium/heavy infantry.  I've definitely had it happen to me before.  This is with a single throw.

I don't really mind having my horse destroyed by a throwing lance or spear, or a light cav being wrecked by throwing axes.  I just think cut weapons being so effective in ignoring armor (honestly, I feel like armor should reduce all ranged more than it already does) is imbalancing.

And yes, when throwing was at its peak in cRPG a while ago, the game was absolute bullshit to play, and people would laugh at how OP being a hybrid thrower was, every battle had tons of shit being thrown about, most OP build was lame shit like huscarl + elite scimitar + 2 stacks of throwing axes with 7-9 PT and PS, the WPF scaling I believe hammered that down the most.  What this leads to is the decreased accuracy that some people complain about by your effective WPF being kind of shit, but light armor negates this for the most part I think.

Throwing might be a LITTLE weak, but pure throwers do insane damage and its a reasonable sidearm specialization.  Just please don't compare it to the viablity of a crossbow sidearm (way too easy) or teh damage potential of an archer (mind blowingly OP) because all of that shit is poorly balanced enough as it is.

I think the last thing the game needs already is more ranged players doing even more damage.  Just nerf cav and archers, leave the rest as it is and see how it goes. 
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on April 12, 2012, 05:25:38 am
Usually headshot 1 hit kills ~ the problem isnt the hit box, it's easy enough to hit a charging horses head.

The problem is with the time it doesn't 1 hit kill; since you score an awesome headshot into a horse - which doesn't affect it anyhow, and the sword or lance kills you instantly -> that kind of sucks. But aim for the body instead, it's do-able.

That's why I aim for the rider haha. I'll get him once when he's coming at me and once while hne's riding away and he'll think twice about going any where fucking near me next time haha. Fuck I hate horses. At the end of every round I do my part by looking for a horse to kill and promptly killing it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SirProto on April 12, 2012, 07:23:29 am
cav avoids thrower, problem solved, not like we can chase you accros the map

... I do   :mrgreen:

Fuck I hate horses. At the end of every round I do my part by looking for a horse to kill and promptly killing it.

I feel exactly the same way hahaha  :twisted:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: _Tak_ on April 12, 2012, 10:03:29 am
I think the damage from throwing can be random, especially if you are on a horse. If you are at full speed going to couch a thrower and he is throw an throwing axe to you you can get instant death. I got 1 shoted by an thrower with an throwing axe due to the speed bonus. Sometime i lose like 70% of my health and sometime 50. Yea CAV has to avoid them because they are just too dangerous.


Edit: 1 throwing jarid can took 50% of my courser health, 1 throwing axe can took like 70% omg. Seems like cuts deal more damage than pierce.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on April 12, 2012, 08:03:48 pm
I think the damage from throwing can be random, especially if you are on a horse. If you are at full speed going to couch a thrower and he is throw an throwing axe to you you can get instant death. I got 1 shoted by an thrower with an throwing axe due to the speed bonus. Sometime i lose like 70% of my health and sometime 50. Yea CAV has to avoid them because they are just too dangerous.


Edit: 1 throwing jarid can took 50% of my courser health, 1 throwing axe can took like 70% omg. Seems like cuts deal more damage than pierce.

duh, its more dmg since your horse has NO armor to speak of.  typically have to be into like mail armor values 40+ for pierce to become more worth it
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on April 24, 2012, 12:55:20 am
I'm starting to believe that the sacrifices linked to throwing are not worth the assets.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: San on April 24, 2012, 01:08:15 am
It's easier on horse to just  slow down and weave, maybe take your 20% damage or whatever and then stab the guy. Just avoid the pure throwers who you know are really good vs cav or have 7+ PT
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 24, 2012, 04:40:16 am
Ah if anything, throwing is viable. I love my throwing alt ^^. So good damage and then I just go slash the last of hp someone might have after I've throwing axed him :D. It's one of the rare cases where splitting wpf is really worth it.

I don't know if pure thrower is viable anymore but as I see it, throwing is only to support and give you an advantage before you enter the melee fight. Just throw shit at someone, soften them a little and then finish them. Antibackpeddle mode goes on when you just show someone you have throwing weapons in your pockets :DDD.

throwing is broken AWESOME!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on April 24, 2012, 08:18:12 am
Ah if anything, throwing is viable. I love my throwing alt ^^. So good damage and then I just go slash the last of hp someone might have after I've throwing axed him :D. It's one of the rare cases where splitting wpf is really worth it.

I don't know if pure thrower is viable anymore but as I see it, throwing is only to support and give you an advantage before you enter the melee fight. Just throw shit at someone, soften them a little and then finish them. Antibackpeddle mode goes on when you just show someone you have throwing weapons in your pockets :DDD.

throwing is broken AWESOME!

Your axes don't do as much damage as you think. You would be better off dropping those points into iron flesh.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 24, 2012, 09:43:56 am
Your axes don't do as much damage as you think. You would be better off dropping those points into iron flesh.
If I'm oneshotting horses, two shotting light infantry and annoying (doing small damage and stunning) plate guys I think I'm pretty successful. Headshots are oneshot kills. Every time...

I don't know if you saw my build in the Lactose's throwing guide thread... I have 5 IF in my build and it should be just enough. 6 PS, 6PT, 6athletics and 6WM. 130 wpf throwing and 103 wpf 2h. Pretty solid build imo. It actually has some active wpf in throwing too... If I'd gone for bigger PT, I would have lost too much accuracy in the process I think...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on April 24, 2012, 10:24:00 am
If I'm oneshotting horses, two shotting light infantry and annoying (doing small damage and stunning) plate guys I think I'm pretty successful. Headshots are oneshot kills. Every time...

I don't know if you saw my build in the Lactose's throwing guide thread... I have 5 IF in my build and it should be just enough. 6 PS, 6PT, 6athletics and 6WM. 130 wpf throwing and 103 wpf 2h. Pretty solid build imo. It actually has some active wpf in throwing too... If I'd gone for bigger PT, I would have lost too much accuracy in the process I think...
I currently have 21/15 build, and no you wouldn't lost accuracy, but movement speed; which is essential for a thrower I see now. Because most of the everyone will be faster than you, even if they have heavy armor. Since throwing is something that requires you to be close to your enemies, but also requires you to get back as fast as possible. I personally wanted to try those throwing lances, so sticked with the build I have. But it has some flaws compared to your 18/18. First of all, you mainly use throwing as a side arm to your melee. Or you utilize them both effectively. But I have to use melee as a side arm to throwing, so my main bread and butter is throwing. Which makes me a pure thrower more often. Well those flaws are:

1-You have to rely on throwing. Well that's not a flaw actually, since it is an effective weapon if you are good at it. But against shielders, there is not much I can do. Yes, all throwing weapons have bonus to shields but that's simply not enough. Imagine you have to fight with a shielder with a build of 15/21, against your 21/15 throwing build. He has 7 athletics and 7 shield skill. So no matter what, he will catch you sooner or later.
So, battle begins. You started to throw some lances or heavy axes at him. Let's say you shot 3, and got succesful with your aiming because you are a good thrower but he blocked them with his shield. Now what? You have to engage him in melee with your, preferably 1 slot weapon. He has the upper hand now and you can't run away from him. If one of his teammate came to help, you are dead. Well now of course your teammate can come to help as well, but this leads us to the second disadvantage.
2-You are a support class and highly rely on your teammates. If your teammates are fucked, you are fucked no matter how good you are. A cavalry will just kill you in the battle, or someone will just stab you from the back, if you do not recieve enough support or your teammates die like flies. So no soloist guy.
If forces are evenly matched, you can support your team to the victory. Perhaps.
3-Horses. Yes you are meant to be a counter for horses, and you can be very good at it. But you are not enough by yourself. You most likely have only 1-2 shots against a good cav player, which is something not enough. They will just charge in, kill one of your teammates, and get away while they just sacrifice some of their horses' health for that kill. If there are no pikeman and archers in your team, you are simply not enough by yourself.

Well, these are my experiments with a non-loomed 21/15 thrower. I do not know, how +3 throwing weapons are. But throwing is something that includes you to look at ground and pick whatever you find to throw. So that should not be a very big issue after all. Yes throwing can be very effective, but not without a bit of help from the goddess of fortune.

Ok I see this is going to be a wall of text, but let me post my suggestions:
1-Make hard (pure) throwing a bit more effective against horses and shields. That's all I see as essential. This, and throwing is very fine. Yeah there is no 2, or 3. Just this.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: _Tak_ on April 24, 2012, 10:27:34 am
duh, its more dmg since your horse has NO armor to speak of.  typically have to be into like mail armor values 40+ for pierce to become more worth it

Not talking about my horse i am talking about myself, i always always get 1 shoted by all kind of throwing weapon if i charge into a thrower and think he is easy target.  i had +3 Mongol armor and +3 mail gauntlets and always get 1 shoted

Edit: Riding on a +3 Courser and +3 Destrier, throwing rely on speed bonus i guess, cuz if i am not moving i take like 1/3 damage from thrower, if i charge directly at thrower = 1 throw death
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vibe on April 24, 2012, 11:00:13 am
buff throwing hammers
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on April 25, 2012, 08:48:46 am
I'm starting to believe that the sacrifices linked to throwing are not worth the assets.

For anti-cavalry, throwing is fantastic.  It's a whole lot easier to veer off from a pikeman than it is to veer off from and completely avoid a thrown weapon.  Pikemen keep cav away.  Throwers kill cav.  (Pikemen kill reckless/lazy/careless/blind cav...)

And you can't get repeatedly bumped while trying to reload, like crossbows.

Archery is better but you have to make far more sacrifices.  "Hybrid thrower" is a lot more viable than "hybrid archer".


The only problem with throwing is that dedicated throwers get screwed.  Melee mode blows, there's no 2H melee mode throwing weapon and ammo count is terribly low.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 25, 2012, 09:08:28 am
Ammo count is low, but I like it the way it is. You have to remember where you throw stuff so you can pick it up later on and throw again. Melee mode for throwing axes isn't really too bad, but hybridizing thrower is the most efficient thing to do.

2h mace or fighting axe or some other 2h mode 1slot weapons are good enough. I like fighting axe because together with throwing axes it really puts shielders against a wall. They must charge and play aggressively. Otherwise their shield is gone fast. When they go into berserk mode they usually do more mistakes, which is where I use my gained advantage and get hits in. Throwing has the potential to manipulate the mindset and the existing 1 vs. 1 mental game. You can easilly put some pressure into your opponent. It's really the trolling class at it's best.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spawny on April 25, 2012, 01:44:16 pm
So I made an STF pure thrower: 27/12 with 4WM and 9PT all wpf into throwing.
The accuracy is decent.

BUT, in the first hour of playing I noticed people tend to survive way too many heavy throwing axes. On multiple occasions, I hit someone wearing a heraldic mail with tabard 3 times (most in the chest, sometimes 1 in the leg) and they would just walk away with my throwing axes.
A strength build in a byrnie took 3 and walked away too.
Yes, they were all coming at me, cuz I got cleaved when I was standing around wondering why they were still alive.

Horses on the other hand all died in 1 hit.

Seems like I need to bring jarids at least to bring infantry down. HTA's are for killing archers and horses.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Cyclopsided on April 25, 2012, 02:13:13 pm
So I made an STF pure thrower: 27/12 with 4WM and 9PT all wpf into throwing.
The accuracy is decent.

BUT, in the first hour of playing I noticed people tend to survive way too many heavy throwing axes. On multiple occasions, I hit someone wearing a heraldic mail with tabard 3 times (most in the chest, sometimes 1 in the leg) and they would just walk away with my throwing axes.
A strength build in a byrnie took 3 and walked away too.
Yes, they were all coming at me, cuz I got cleaved when I was standing around wondering why they were still alive.

Horses on the other hand all died in 1 hit.

Seems like I need to bring jarids at least to bring infantry down. HTA's are for killing archers and horses.
You did that with the most OP throwing there is, heavy throwing axes.
Try using something less like war darts, franciscas, snowflakes,
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gurnisson on April 25, 2012, 02:14:51 pm
Loomed throwing weapons is a lot better tbh
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vibe on April 25, 2012, 02:28:48 pm
I was surprised how accurate throwing is really. Reticule is big but it seems like that doesn't matter at all. This was with 8 active wpf (138wpf - 130wpf for 10 PT).
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on April 25, 2012, 02:47:04 pm
Javelin type throwing weapons go pretty straight, but axes and hammers suffer from inacuracy
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: djavo on April 25, 2012, 02:48:58 pm
Throwing sucks, I cant kill anyone. Buff it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Vibe on April 25, 2012, 03:06:31 pm
Javelin type throwing weapons go pretty straight, but axes and hammers suffer from inacuracy

Don't know, I was pretty accurate with throwing hammers. Needs further testing!

There's also this other thing, even though hammers fly slower it's still easier to hit targets with them than with for example javelins or other piercing throws. It just seems that hammers/other non-piercing thrown weapons have a bigger hitbox.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: kinngrimm on April 25, 2012, 03:18:12 pm
@Ronin
master the art of *jumpheadshot*
there are some like pebble_pusher and other thrower out there who are able to do that. I got killed quite a few times that way as a shielder.
On my pure thrower alt i haven't mastered yet that art myself though  :rolleyes:
But i get quite some kills with him and it is good fun.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 25, 2012, 03:18:23 pm
IMO throwing is now like it's supposed to be. It's not necessarily a support class, I'd say support skill more rather. You are not only thrower, but you are also a 2h, polearmer or 1h.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on April 25, 2012, 04:25:15 pm
@Ronin
master the art of *jumpheadshot*
there are some like pebble_pusher and other thrower out there who are able to do that. I got killed quite a few times that way as a shielder.
On my pure thrower alt i haven't mastered yet that art myself though  :rolleyes:
But i get quite some kills with him and it is good fun.
Haha retired yesterday. No more throwing for me :D
But I'll definitely use it in native. I only looked at it as a fun technique, but now you changed my perception towards it.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 25, 2012, 04:35:34 pm
There is a lot of tricks and stuff related to throwing. Just trying them out brought the game to new area for me. I bet if someone learns the tricks against shields he is going to be one of the most powerful people in the field. Hybrid is the way to go there no doubt about it.

Yes it is inaccurate, but I like it because it makes the success even funnier :D.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spawny on April 25, 2012, 05:17:31 pm
You did that with the most OP throwing there is, heavy throwing axes.
Try using something less like war darts, franciscas, snowflakes,

I know. Killing something with those is a pain. I used to use war darts to snipe archers with. I could hit them over pretty long ranges and with 7+ PT, war darts will hurt the average archer pretty bad.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on April 25, 2012, 05:30:13 pm
From my experience I've found throwing spears very useless. Well not fitting to my playstyle I mean. I either go with good accuracy and high damage jarids, or high ammunition war darts. Heavy throwing axes or lances are another options too of course. But war darts are best fitting to the situation if you have x1 in my opinion. You got lots of things to throw, with low cost.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 25, 2012, 09:38:18 pm
Given that the situation has been fairly static for awhile now, my interpretation is that throwing is intended to be like xbows. Not as a "pure" class, but to give options against otherwise unreachable cavalry or melee/archers that are fast enough to outrun you. Fast, accurate items like stars may not do much damage, but the idea is to stun the runner and allow you or others to catch up to them. War darts against a charging horse will do much better with the speed bonus or even more to the rider. Stun them and it prevents them from lancing you. (Just don't think you can do a side toss or at a retreating enemy and do effective damage)
Against decent throwers, once they are in short range against an archer, they are very effective counters with the faster throws. The archer has to dodge, which makes their reticule go wide, making them less accurate. Every thrower I've seen has better points in melee and armor than any archer, and are on par with grounded cavalry. Against melee they have a ranged option to whittle them down, and then stand a very good chance one vs one in the melee fight.

You have to be a hybrid, but overall I think that class has its distinct advantages and its own niche.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spawny on April 25, 2012, 10:14:45 pm
Given that the situation has been fairly static for awhile now, my interpretation is that throwing is intended to be like xbows. Not as a "pure" class, but to give options against otherwise unreachable cavalry or melee/archers that are fast enough to outrun you. Fast, accurate items like stars may not do much damage, but the idea is to stun the runner and allow you or others to catch up to them. War darts against a charging horse will do much better with the speed bonus or even more to the rider. Stun them and it prevents them from lancing you. (Just don't think you can do a side toss or at a retreating enemy and do effective damage)
Against decent throwers, once they are in short range against an archer, they are very effective counters with the faster throws. The archer has to dodge, which makes their reticule go wide, making them less accurate. Every thrower I've seen has better points in melee and armor than any archer, and are on par with grounded cavalry. Against melee they have a ranged option to whittle them down, and then stand a very good chance one vs one in the melee fight.

You have to be a hybrid, but overall I think that class has its distinct advantages and its own niche.

I agree. My observations exactly.
My best thrower build was 18/18 with 6 PS, PT and WM. Split prof with at least 100 in a melee prof and the rest in throwing.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 25, 2012, 10:26:37 pm
I agree. My observations exactly.
My best thrower build was 18/18 with 6 PS, PT and WM. Split prof with at least 100 in a melee prof and the rest in throwing.
I think that is exactly the build I'm using on my stf right now. Epic shit... Epic...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 26, 2012, 01:13:47 am
Man. I don't think this is as much of an issue with throwing as with the horse head hitbox being smaller than a pea  :mad: I had just shot a horse from the side, and then got a headshot....which it ignored.
While trying to find that horse, I found another one on the same map. Archer shot it from the front in the chest (ie speed bonus) and then you can see where a thrower got a DIRECT head shot from the front (ie with speed bonus) and the damn thing is still trotting around. Seriously, cavalry needs to stfu about their "paper" horses.

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Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Digglez on April 26, 2012, 06:11:59 am
wardarts arent exactly horse killers.  for all we know that guy only had PT2

heavy axes will do SERIOUS dmg when headshotting the non-armored horses on the other hand
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: djavo on April 26, 2012, 09:10:46 pm
Yeah it makes perfect sense that non armored horse with heavy axe in the head survives. FFS Conan knocked out Kamil in one shot.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zanze on April 26, 2012, 09:38:45 pm
Wardarts don't do much damage to begin with, damage also depends on the speed bonus. If you shot it from the side, you don't get a bonus, which means you did dick for damage. Same for the archer.

However, shoot a horse in the face that is charging full gallop. Dead horse. Heavy Axes if you want to kill horses.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 26, 2012, 11:13:15 pm
Wardarts don't do much damage to begin with, damage also depends on the speed bonus. If you shot it from the side, you don't get a bonus, which means you did dick for damage. Same for the archer.

However, shoot a horse in the face that is charging full gallop. Dead horse. Heavy Axes if you want to kill horses.

You didn't look at that screenshot did you. Center of the horses face. Like I said, I think that unarmored horses have a pea sized hitbox. Perhaps I'm wrong and they are the same, but I nearly always kill an armored horse in 1 headshot with a bodkin. Unarmored, it is a total crapshoot as to what will happen.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 27, 2012, 12:06:29 am
You didn't look at that screenshot did you. Center of the horses face. Like I said, I think that unarmored horses have a pea sized hitbox. Perhaps I'm wrong and they are the same, but I nearly always kill an armored horse in 1 headshot with a bodkin. Unarmored, it is a total crapshoot as to what will happen.
QQ moar. The hitbox is extremely easy to hit. Wardarts are not exactly designed to do anything else than annoying and stunning people.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 27, 2012, 07:53:08 am
QQ moar. The hitbox is extremely easy to hit. Wardarts are not exactly designed to do anything else than annoying and stunning people.

Talk out your ass moar. I'm not a thrower, that's not my war dart. Head shots on unarmored horses very often don't kill the horse even with speed bonus on a full speed charge with MW Horn with MW Bodkins and PD 6. The SAME head shot placement on an ARMORED horse 1 shots it every time.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 27, 2012, 03:01:27 pm
Talk out your ass moar. I'm not a thrower, that's not my war dart. Head shots on unarmored horses very often don't kill the horse even with speed bonus on a full speed charge with MW Horn with MW Bodkins and PD 6. The SAME head shot placement on an ARMORED horse 1 shots it every time.

QQ moar. The hitbox is extremely easy to hit. Wardarts are not exactly designed to do anything else than annoying and stunning people.

I oneshot a full health charger today with my heavy throwing axe. I bet the rider wasn't too pleased... When the horseman charges right at you the head is ridicilously EASY to hit. I've done this shit with arbalest too. Sometimes the horse just doesn't die, and you die. Just deal with it. Shoot the rider instead if it is so hard.

Btw how many times have you seen a dude with throwing axe in his head even if the guy doesn't have a helmet? hmm? I'd bet several dozen of times. The character head hitboxes aren't perfect either and everyone should be aware of this by now...
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on April 27, 2012, 03:11:45 pm
Odin is right. I use a Head Cloth for my helmet and I had a throwing axe hang out and only lost 1/3rd health.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spanish on April 27, 2012, 07:09:44 pm
My horse is like paper we obvisouly need to buff Arabian since the courser in that screenie is obvisouly way better than the Arabian for less upkeep. And mayb buff long voulge
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 27, 2012, 07:54:13 pm
I oneshot a full health charger today with my heavy throwing axe.

Shocking that a weapon with an edge 20 times the size of a point based weapon would find the pea brain  :rolleyes: I bet you are impressed when a flamberge hits a body when a dart goes under the armpit was well  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on April 27, 2012, 08:22:41 pm
Throwers do alot of damage to horses, but there is nothing you can do it aim a throwing weapon its just luck where it ends up hitting so its not hard to avoid getting hit by a throwing weapon. At the same time if your cav a thrower is the last person you would want to attack, they do tons of damage, can easily hit you if you charge them, and they usually don't kill very many people and therefore they contribute very little to their team so your not helping your team as much as you could by wasting time killing someone whose a step above a peasant in terms of value. I dont know if they are ment for hybrids, thrower hybrids are gimp in melee and gimp in throwing. I think its something that's just for fun or something for people who aren't good enough to do anything else.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 27, 2012, 08:28:38 pm
There is nothing you can do it aim a throwing weapon.
Which one of the following things are right?
You suck at throwing insanely.
You've never actually tried throwing.
Or you're intentionally lying.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on April 27, 2012, 08:44:37 pm
Which one of the following things are right?
You suck at throwing insanely.
You've never actually tried throwing.
Or you're intentionally lying.

I doubt you could hit a target 15-20 yards away even 5 out of 10 tries. With a bow you could easily hit it 10 out of 10 times, because there is actual aiming involved with a bow, a throwing weapon is completely random.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on April 27, 2012, 09:16:14 pm
I doubt you could hit a target 15-20 yards away even 5 out of 10 tries.

That's the definition of "accurate". Didn't you know?  :P
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 28, 2012, 12:21:14 am
Shocking that a weapon with an edge 20 times the size of a point based weapon would find the pea brain  :rolleyes: I bet you are impressed when a flamberge hits a body when a dart goes under the armpit was well  :lol:

It's shocking that I have to keep quoting myself to you.
I've done this shit with arbalest too. Sometimes the horse just doesn't die, and you die. Just deal with it. Shoot the rider instead if it is so hard.

Btw how many times have you seen a dude with throwing axe in his head even if the guy doesn't have a helmet? hmm? I'd bet several dozen of times. The character head hitboxes aren't perfect either and everyone should be aware of this by now...

Dunno how the throwing axe blade affects the hitboxes etc... Well your suggestion (I assume because you said you dont QQ) to solve this great wronging is? Making the shitbox larger?

Btw Lemmy do you realize how long your sentences are?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on April 28, 2012, 01:29:37 am
Odin you don't need periods when you've got commas.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on April 28, 2012, 01:40:19 am
Odin you don't need periods when you've got commas.
Oh is that so? I never knew ^^
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on April 28, 2012, 06:01:32 am
I doubt you could hit a target 15-20 yards away even 5 out of 10 tries. With a bow you could easily hit it 10 out of 10 times, because there is actual aiming involved with a bow, a throwing weapon is completely random.
lol, you really, REALLY, don't know shit....
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Ronin on April 28, 2012, 09:26:14 am
No need to be harsh here. Throwing really seems useless at the beginning. Discovering it's magic, is something comes when you're more experienced with them.
,
And lemmy, are you still a one handed cav? I think the issue here is, there are not much good throwers to piss you off. Because, [throwing=lesser accuracy+bigger damage]. In which the accuracy part is not that important for horses, just because they are bigger. Which makes throwing, a counter to cavalry. Yes. I believe the reason you did not get pissed off by throwing is, the lack of good throwers in quantity.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Renten on April 29, 2012, 08:29:19 pm
I'm forced to agree with Lemmy on not being able to hit a target at 20 yards more than 50% of the time. You really just don't know where the weapon will go at that range beyond a general direction (not to mention people will run out of the way). Now a horse at 20 yards is fairly easy to hit, especially if running perpendicular to you. Throwing is truly best against cav, they rarely pay attention if you don't have a spear and thus ride nice and close to danger, but only when the hit boxes aren't screwed up. This is with 7 PT and 140 wpf.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: SirProto on April 30, 2012, 06:06:01 pm
so many of my throwing axes keep flying through people :(
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spanish on May 01, 2012, 06:44:42 pm
Just went on a throwing rampage on NA 1 with my STF thrower and it was wonderful. 14-1 using war darts and anything I picked up from other throwers. I would like more ammo though
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: F i n on May 01, 2012, 07:50:27 pm
I still get my kills. Though i understand where your problem is...

(18/21, throwing axes, 6 pt, 7wm, 7ath, 6 ps, 1if).

1-2 axes fo light armour
2-3 axes for med. armour
5-6 for the plated ones

1 headshot for every armour

I don't think damage is the problem. But as someone said before - those hitboxes are kind of stupid. Sometimes Axes fly just through the enemy. Sometimes the axe is stuck "in the head" without beeing a headshot. Or you SHOULD have hit the Body - but the axe is stuck in the inside of the arm e.g...

I know its harder to get kills now than it was b4 the ranged patch


As a thrower its much harder to kill enemies than with any other class.

I decided to take it as a challange. And even am top ranked from time to time. Got an overall K/D ratio of more then 2



And even tho its harder for us - we still are the best :).

Fuck them other classes!
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: F i n on May 01, 2012, 07:54:22 pm
ah and Proto:

try and hit enemies when they're either facing you or running away.

Jumping targets are almost impossible to hit. Hitting them from side as well.

Also you should move yourself while throwing. (Don't know if that really changes something, but i get more kills, when im running, jumping, throwing than when im standing still aiming. )
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spanish on May 01, 2012, 08:19:42 pm
I've noticed the best way for me to be kills is to focus on light armored targets at the beginning of the rounds and conserve ammo until late in the round when most players are weak and pick them off with well placed darts. And I usually rely off of other throwers that have died and left they're throwing weapons lying around. I can even clutch most games.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Slamz on May 02, 2012, 01:02:30 am
So I made an STF pure thrower: 27/12 with 4WM and 9PT all wpf into throwing.
The accuracy is decent.

BUT, in the first hour of playing I noticed people tend to survive way too many heavy throwing axes. On multiple occasions, I hit someone wearing a heraldic mail with tabard 3 times (most in the chest, sometimes 1 in the leg) and they would just walk away with my throwing axes.
A strength build in a byrnie took 3 and walked away too.
Yes, they were all coming at me, cuz I got cleaved when I was standing around wondering why they were still alive.

Horses on the other hand all died in 1 hit.

Seems like I need to bring jarids at least to bring infantry down. HTA's are for killing archers and horses.

That's about right, though with horses it depends on how/where you hit them.  Headshot on a charging horse with a heavy throwing axe will kill them.  If you miss the head and hit the body (or worse, leg) it won't (and you'll probably get lanced).  Hitting the rider might kill him unless he has heavy armor (or you hit him in the arm/leg) although that will still interrupt his intended lancing.

If the horse is running away from you, you can throw at it all day without killing it.

Basically throwing vs horses is my favorite thing but if you screw up then the cav will one-shot you.  Beats trying to fend off cavalry with a sword, though.


Versus infantry you should just count on using throwing to soften them up a bit.  Otherwise you'd better plan on playing like Chucky -- throw axes, run away, pick up axes, throw axes, run away some more... you won't kill most people before they can close with you so you'd better run (and hope they don't have their own throwing daggers to stun you with...) or else have a build that can follow up with good melee.

Ditto for fighting cav, incidentally.  You may have killed the horse in one headshot but an armored rider will take a shot or two and still close the gap to kill you if you can't melee him or flat out run away.  And then there's shielders...

Figthing plate guys with throwing is kind of silly too.  Even if you win, he'll end up on the ground with the majority of your ammunition stuck in his armor.

This is why I encourage throwing hybrids but not pure throwers.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Spanish on May 02, 2012, 01:41:52 am
Pure throwing is the best you need to use war darts bro and rely on those mystical headshots and staying alive to the end of the round to pick ppl off! War darts are amaZing and the best thing about throwing is killing another thrower with lances taking them slaughtering he enemy then running away and chucking war darts to finish them
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Chestaclese on May 02, 2012, 08:04:31 am
For shielders you want to jump throw over their left shoulder. Alternately you can sometimes dip to your left and hit them in the right side. It's easier if you have somewhat unlevel terrain to work with and the shilder is a foot or so below you. Shielders are pretty slow when they have the shield up and if you have 6 or 7 ath you can dip in and out of their area pretty good. Weapons that have a fast release will help too, war darts and heavy axes are pretty quick. Throwing spears are pretty slow.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: _Tak_ on August 01, 2012, 09:13:26 pm
Their ammos and damage is way too small, their weapons cost too much, just found out playing as thrower will make less money than playing as lancers, they seriously need some kind of buff, playing as archer/ xbowman do alot better than thrower

I am ok with the weight of weapons but if you use throwing weapons like throwing lance you will break, if you use throwing lance (4 max ammo), pretty much most of the time people survive from 1 throwing lance, try it on STF u will see, its funny that light archer wearing armor like jerkin survive an throwing lance

need to throw like 3 heavy throwing axe to kill a medium armor infantry, like 6 or more to kill an tincan, and you only got like 12 ammos, is this some kind of joke>?

yep throwing is broken
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Peasant_Woman on August 01, 2012, 09:19:58 pm
Ninja xbow here (this gen). Yesterday I survived a throwing lance to the body in a ragged outfit...

Throwing doesn't scare me like it used to.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on August 01, 2012, 09:28:49 pm
Make throwing weapons cheaper?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Strider on August 01, 2012, 11:17:43 pm
The community seems to like it when you speak up for throwing. But all i get is a bunch of infamous disliking.  :cry:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 02, 2012, 12:31:02 am
I'm going to be the party pooper here, again!

Nothing is wrong with throwing. It's just that throwing is much better when hybridized. Pure throwing might not be satisfying atm, but buffing it would have stupid consequences...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on August 02, 2012, 01:20:26 am
I'm going to be the party pooper here, again!

Nothing is wrong with throwing. It's just that throwing is much better when hybridized. Pure throwing might not be satisfying atm, but buffing it would have stupid consequences...
It's better as hybrids, which is why it should be cheaper, IMO.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Peasant_Woman on August 02, 2012, 01:22:38 am
EDIT:
Thought again and maybe it would be better if once you start getting into the higher levels of PT you start gaining a little accuracy as well? Dedicated throwers can still be a thing, just needs careful balance.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Son Of Odin on August 02, 2012, 01:24:34 am
It's better as hybrids, which is why it should be cheaper, IMO.
You might be right. Also more variety would be nice, but nothing's wrong with the stats of the weapons or the builds.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Strider on August 02, 2012, 04:25:02 am
I think they should buff pure throwers. Cuz all that it's good for is a side arm.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Mendro on August 02, 2012, 04:08:14 pm
I think they should buff pure throwers. Cuz all that it's good for is a side arm.

I'm pure throwers and I approve this message
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on August 04, 2012, 12:03:41 pm
Also throwing as a sidearm could use a buff.

When I hit a running archer with 7pt and masterwork heavy throwing axes in the back and he is still running afterwards, although he got hit before my axe, then something is terribly wrong...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 04, 2012, 12:50:16 pm
Ima thrower i think throwing is okay.

I just think we could get a buff regarding the crosshair.

Only thing that annoys me is the crosshair imho they should remove it since its completely useless an serves no purpose since atm you guess an use your imagination when you aim at stuff.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tore on August 04, 2012, 06:38:34 pm
Only thing that annoys me is the crosshair imho they should remove it since its completely useless an serves no purpose since atm you guess an use your imagination when you aim at stuff.

go to ur warband folder/textures and delete ui_gadgets
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: DrTaco on August 04, 2012, 07:22:37 pm
Pure thrower here, I don't know what your problems are, but i'm doing fine. I could never hit or kill anything anyway  :P
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: djavo on August 04, 2012, 08:30:48 pm
Crosshair is bigger with 160 wpf in throwing then with rocket jumping archer with 0 wpf.
But if you're really good nothing can stop you from dominating.
This is underdog class.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Combaticus on August 06, 2012, 10:50:17 am
Nothing wrong with the class, just ask the countless cav dudes that rage at me due to my efficiency at killing them.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Oggrinsky on August 07, 2012, 07:03:31 am
What Combaticus said.

Throwing is in fine shape at the moment.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 02:16:05 pm
Projectile speed and crosshair could use a little bit of tweaking in the buff direction.

The class is still a joke compared to archers in terms of ranged capability's.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: peter_afca7 on August 07, 2012, 02:24:22 pm
trowing always hit me and mostly one hit me i think nerf this shit
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Jarlek on August 07, 2012, 02:50:16 pm
Projectile speed and crosshair could use a little bit of tweaking in the buff direction.

The class is still a joke compared to archers in terms of ranged capability's.
Why take 7 PT and 140 throwing wpf, when you can take 7 PD and 140 archery?

Archery is a better sidearm than throwing...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: _Tak_ on August 07, 2012, 02:54:00 pm
trowing always hit me and mostly one hit me i think nerf this shit

you were playing rage ball, wearing tribal warrior outfit and got hit by an throwing lance (8 PT monk guy)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 09:48:43 pm
Why take 7 PT and 140 throwing wpf, when you can take 7 PD and 140 archery?

Archery is a better sidearm than throwing...

You don't need 7 PT and 140 throwing WPF to be accurate (which would make it almost impossible to use as a sidearm, you'd have shit WPF in any other skill).  You do need 6/7 PD and 140 Archery WPF to be accurate in archery.

Throwing SHOULD BE (and can be in c-rpg) a hybrid class, archers really can't be, and, arguably, shouldn't be.

Tzar is an idiot (as usual) trying to suggest that throwers should be comparable to archers (let alone balanced the same as them).

Djavo throwing might have a larger projectile than archery jumping (maybe, assuming you're exaggerating) but throwing weapons almost always go to the same spot in the crosshair every time, so it doesn't matter how large the crosshair is...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 10:04:42 pm

You don't need 7 PT and 140 throwing WPF to be accurate

Wrong you need more..

Tzar is an idiot (as usual) trying to suggest that throwers should be comparable to archers (let alone balanced the same as them).

Ive never said that l2r....you gotta have a reading comprehension problem...

Djavo throwing might have a larger projectile than archery jumping (maybe, assuming you're exaggerating) but throwing weapons almost always go to the same spot in the crosshair every time, so it doesn't matter how large the crosshair is...

lol just lol....
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 10:12:38 pm

The class is still a joke compared to archers in terms of ranged capability's.


Ive never said that l2r....you gotta have a reading comprehension problem...


Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 10:29:31 pm
Your point is  :?:

Where does it say i want throwing to become the same as archery  :?:

Here check out this website  :arrow: http://www.starfall.com/
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 10:30:52 pm
You said it's a joke compared to archery's ranged capabilities, what did you mean by that?  Elaborate.

I took it as you saying they should be comparable to archers, since you used the word "compared to"...

Maybe you should learn to speak.  If communication fails, it's always the fault of the sender, not the receiver. Always.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 10:34:03 pm
You said it's a joke compared to archery's ranged capabilities, what did you mean by that?  Elaborate.

I meant that throwing is a joke compared to the ranged capabilities of archery.

Mainly talking about accuracy and projectile speed like i mentioned in some of my earlier post but i take it you only read the title of the threads before you post.

Ive never said i wanted throwing to be on the same lvl as achery when talking about projectile speed an accuracy. Ive only said...  an i say it again throwing could use a little buff.

Have a good day sir.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 07, 2012, 10:36:11 pm
Throwing will always have a slower projectile speed than a bow and arrow...and it is already very accurate because the throwing weapons always go to the same part of the crosshair depending on the throwing weapon...

For them to be comparable to archery, they would need to have the same accuracy, damage, and projectile speed as a bow and arrow...they are completely different, so why would you want them to be comparable?
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 07, 2012, 10:43:07 pm
Throwing will always have a slower projectile speed than a bow and arrow...and it is already very accurate because the throwing weapons always go to the same part of the crosshair depending on the throwing weapon...
What the hell are you lathering on about? I didn't want to glance at this thread, but you know damn well that isn't true.
Quote
For them to be comparable to archery, they would need to have the same accuracy, damage, and projectile speed as a bow and arrow...they are completely different, so why would you want them to be comparable?
No he said comparable effectiveness not identical stats. For something to be comparable would require to have the total pros and total cons end up with near-equivalent values to other ranged counterparts.
But they aren't.
in my opinion, throwing needs some more accuracy. just a little bit, not archer pinpoint deathmachine accurate, just able to hit the broadside of a horse at 30 yards 3 times in a row without missing like currently.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 10:45:58 pm
This guy title fits him perfect i guess.  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Rumblood on August 07, 2012, 10:53:37 pm
When I see the good throwers, I try to take them out at a decent range. Once they are in juke and jiving range, they have the advantage over an archer.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 07, 2012, 11:21:06 pm
When I see the good throwers, I try to take them out at a decent range. Once they are in juke and jiving range, they have the advantage over an archer.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on August 08, 2012, 03:21:53 am
I have a dedicated thrower.  Currently 154 WPF in throw, and 0 in anything else.  Throwing lances... you can only carry 4.  They miss even at very close range 4 of 5 times (I pick them back up obviously).  I remember when a throwing lance was a deadly threat (as it should be).  People hunted me down on that alt or ran for cover; even though at BEST I could get 3-4 kills from them and then be forced to pick up a weapon somewhere.  Now... its just a joke.  Even IF I hit them... likely it will take 2 hits to kill them, so thats 4-10 throwing attempts.  So you can imagine... Miss, miss, miss, (and if I am lucky) HIT!  But he lives and I'm out of ammo.  I can't even endure using lances currently, its so bad.  Used to be fun even though I died a lot.  Now... its just dying a lot.  And horses just keep on going with 1-2 lances in them.

So, try throwing spears for more ammo...  spam spam spam.  Doesn't have any real feel of control.  Doesn't have any real feel of "I planned that shot".  But spamming with the most ammo u can is the only way to even get hits, and even then I can barely break even KDR.  I understand people hate range and don't want it to dominate.  But, when you have a fully dedicated thrower... and no one sees you as a threat anymore.  Something is wrong.

Like Silveredge who had both his xbow and mace nerfed.  I no longer fear him.  In fact, its kinda sad to see him now.  Guess Chesta and some others gonna be the same way?


Just a thought, but too much "balance"/micro management of everything can diminish the fun of the game...
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Turboflex on August 08, 2012, 03:55:24 pm
Pure throwing is a gimmick, it's never gonna be balanced properly and it would be silly to try. People complaining about their pure throwing char sucking really gotta wake up and realize this is the deal.

Throwing's real strength is hybrid, as a sidearm for melee.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Gurnisson on August 08, 2012, 04:02:03 pm
Pure throwing is a gimmick, it's never gonna be balanced properly and it would be silly to try. People complaining about their pure throwing char sucking really gotta wake up and realize this is the deal.

Throwing's real strength is hybrid, as a sidearm for melee.

QFT
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: oprah_winfrey on August 08, 2012, 05:27:59 pm
Pure throwing is only a gimmick build if you are the only one doing it. Once you have a handfull of dedicated throwers with the same banner (thus on the same team) it is pretty scary.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Turboflex on August 08, 2012, 07:11:25 pm
Not that scary, when say Hospitaller tries it, the only guys who are dangerous are the ones who are actually experienced throwers like chucky and combaticus, the other 3-4 are just chumps.

Those 2 guys should make hybrids also, they would still get a lot of throwing kills, but since they are skilled players, they wouldn't waste so much time running, they would be applying their effectiveness better to team efforts by spending more time actually fighting instead of running. They'd die less to archers and cav.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on August 08, 2012, 07:49:40 pm
I've told them my opinion that they would be basically the same throwing skill if they dropped some WPF from throwing and put it into 1h or 2h.  They also wouldn't be quite as fast...but I don't think you need to be a pure thrower to be accurate with your throwing weapons.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lichen on August 08, 2012, 08:03:07 pm
Throwing is basically ok. Problem is some people don't understand how to adapt their thrower play style depending on their throwers build. Or they want the best of both (accurate + high damage). Sorry, not likely. I guarantee I could make a STF thrower right now, go in and make people rage (and then they would probably come on here crying for throwing to be nerfed of course). Give a good player a pitchfork and you'll see nerf pitchfork topics soon after. Give a bad player a pitchfork and you'll see buff pitchfork topics.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on August 09, 2012, 03:09:03 am
Give a bad player a horse, and pretty soon...

 NERF CAV topics start pooping up.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: DrTaco on August 09, 2012, 08:40:28 pm
Pure throwing is a gimmick, it's never gonna be balanced properly and it would be silly to try. People complaining about their pure throwing char sucking really gotta wake up and realize this is the deal.

Throwing's real strength is hybrid, as a sidearm for melee.

Bullshit and I will prove it. Crossbows.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on August 09, 2012, 10:51:09 pm
Ignore him he is just trolling.

Some people actually do understand it is just a game and that pure classes exist, like any other, for the FUN of it.  Each pure class has advantages and disadvantages, as well as to some degree multi classed does.  But, as they weaken some classes so that even IF you go pure you just can't compete/have fun... then the blame rests back upon the devs to realize that their ever spiralling downward quest for mystical view of balance is just eating the game up.

Weapons are supposed to be different.  Thats what makes u think, find ways to beat guys who have certain advantages over you.

But whatever.  Often feels like the devs don't listen (whether u ask nice or rage), since they nerf even weak weapons and weak gear and repair/tax better gear.  For example, I don't know what all was done in recent changes but currently my tripple loomed black lam armor feels like a paper bad in facing most people i could take 2-3 hits from before.  Kinda useless if ur gonna go down in one hit why even have it?

As for the comment about throwing:  "...want the best of both (accurate + high damage)."  Throwing is certainly not high damage or accurate as it is.  I'd be greatly relieved if accuracy just got a bump up on throwing.  Take throwing lances... 4 ammo supposedly 60 damage.  USED to be that you could Kill a horse in one shot (headshot) which having such a SEVERLY limited ammo is understandable.  Now... ur lucky if u can HIT the broadside of the horse once, much less the 2-3 times required to kill it.  I don't remember the last time now that I head shot a horse with throwing its been so long.  Accuracy and damage? Quite laughable.  What it is currently is people spamming what ammo they have.  Guess some think thats the way it should be tho...  (wonder how people would feel if their 2H or pole arm missed people 3 of 4 times as if they person wasn't there, or their shield acted like it wasn't there when people swung at them.)

Just try to remember it is about having fun people (and devs too... please remember that and stop taking away all the truly fun variety in the game).  As it is, half the things I used to do when I got bored on my main... aren't even worth bothing with now.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Lichen on August 09, 2012, 11:28:24 pm


As for the comment about throwing:  "...want the best of both (accurate + high damage)."  Throwing is certainly not high damage or accurate as it is. 
Yes it is high damage OR accurate. Throwing lances + 10 powerthrow is the most devastating weapon in the game (I'm guessing that's probably why you only get 4 of them). 5 powerthrow + a bunch of WPF points = you're now accurate.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Tzar on August 10, 2012, 12:37:16 am
You know whats funny  :?:

The man who started the thread have gone archer  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on August 11, 2012, 06:12:59 am
Throwing is neither high damage or accuracy right now.  You have headshot damage thats buffed, but throwing is actually doing less damage than it used to a year ago.

Example:
A guy with 0 PS and 0 wpf can pick up a 2h and can 1 or 2 hit people with regularity (I do it all the time).

A guy with 7 PT and 4 throwing lances cant hit the broad side of horse 10 feet in front of him without 5-6 attempted throws.  AND it will survive even if its a regular rouncy.  Try that with a guy charging you with a weapon and you just dead, without much chance unless you wanna start the absurd running game (I only run to grab a weapon and fight it out if Im on my thrower).

Take today for another example.  My throwing alt, 154 throw and heavy throwing axes.  Point blank I've been facing off with slow moving tin cans and missing them, and the axe goes wide of the targeting reticle and repeatedly hits friendlies.  I used to rarely ever hit friendlies with ranged, especially throwing.  Now... it just can't but go astray into friendlies.  So, when u have 12 axes and miss enemy 4-5 the times, by that time you are dead and you wounded/killed your teammate.  I am not asking for more ammo.  I am not asking for more damage.  I am asking that I can hit what I aim at rather than have to stand a mile away from a fight knowing I can't hit anything anyway up close anymore than far away with a dedicated thrower.

I stopped playing this game for about 5-6 months before because of a similar issue ruining not just throwing but several other really fun weapons.  When they become only spamable and not really intentional in use... it (for me) takes the fun out of it.  I used to get headshots before the headshot increase damage thing and did just fine with really high wpf on my thrower.  Those were intentional hits and they felt good to deliver.  Now... its the luck of the draw whether you get one, even tho the headshot damage is now (imo) too high.

Things are just really unbalanced and its diminishing the fun.  Today there were a ton of archers on NA1 for a while.  I guess people are clueing in on the increased damage archers are doing recently.  No one seems to be able to explain why its doing more, but it is.  I've been one shot even on my strength build with shots in the chest...  I even got on my no loom alts and found myself dealing lots of damage and headshots with archery.  So go figure.  People left NA1 enmasse earlier today due to so many archers being on, you couldn't even melee.

What I'm saying is this summarized:

1.  Throwing is SUPPOSED to be medium + damage and high accuracy because it has so little ammo.  If you can't hit, its worthless.
2.  Ranged is supposed to be medium to light damage with more ammo because it has such long range, yet if you have that much ammo and once shot people a lot then it ends up taking melee out of the game.  Thus, you can "afford" to hit more times because you have much more ammo and need to do less damage per hit because of having so much distance and ammo.

Throwing needs accuracy buff, compensate with archery by slowing the draw time down and returning headshot/body damages to the previous setting.  Let the game get back to a more melee intensive focus while allowing the dedicated options (yes even ranged) to still be playable.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zerran on August 11, 2012, 06:21:11 am
Good lord man, please check for typos.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on August 11, 2012, 06:22:19 am
Spell check chocolate chip cookie is present & impatiently evaluating everyone's comments...

BTW
Quote
Good lord man, please check for typos.
Lord is capitalized. (cough cough)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zerran on August 11, 2012, 06:25:55 am
You assume I was referring to "The Lord", but this is not necessarily the case.  :P
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: seddrik on August 12, 2012, 12:39:47 am
Good Lord (exclamation) most commonly refers to an English phrase used in exclamation.

But you can always deny it anyway.  Derp herp.  :lol:

Instead of trolling about spelling, try adding some insightful commentary on the the thread.  Unless that is too great a challenge for you? (cough)
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Zerran on August 12, 2012, 07:10:56 am
Good Lord (exclamation) most commonly refers to an English phrase used in exclamation.

But you can always deny it anyway.  Derp herp.  :lol:

Instead of trolling about spelling, try adding some insightful commentary on the the thread.  Unless that is too great a challenge for you? (cough)

*Looks at custom title*

Quite possibly the most fitting custom title of anyone in the forums.  :lol:
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Phew on August 13, 2012, 06:39:23 pm
Since I only play siege, I figure 4-5 PT and 80ish wpf is a small price to pay for the joy of chucking axes down a ladder into a crowd of attackers when I'm on defense.

Every other use of throwing generally results in my teammates with axes in the back of their skulls and/or rage quitting when I miss a stationary enemy 10ft away.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: Achelous on August 13, 2012, 08:57:57 pm
Agreed I think throwing is borked as much as I hate to die from it, To me chestacles was my favorite thrower to watch incredible impossible headshots now hes an archer last I seen him. No wonder why he changed classes cause hes right.
Title: Re: throwing is broken
Post by: DrTaco on August 15, 2012, 08:11:11 pm
*Looks at custom title*

Quite possibly the most fitting custom title of anyone in the forums.  :lol:

So very true.