Playing Eu_1 now, it's pretty much nothing but cav and ranged on the enemy team...Gonna edit more ? :P
Edit, Rage quit...
Edit, Skyrim...
I recently discovered this awesome game, but to me what makes it so good is the depth of melee combat. If the melee wasn't so good would anyone still play? That is a point that should be considered when the game is balanced. Cav/melee combat is 10x more deep and involving than ranged. I think what spoils cRPG sometimes is the sheer volume of people playing like they're the sniper in TF2. Just hanging back chilling while playing a separate game by themselves. There is little "pvp" from a ranged character until it becomes melee mode, or against other ranged characters.This !
From a realism pov though its tough to balance, but the game mechanics just don't support having too many ranged guys imo and it spoils the game to some extent
well imo cavs fine, melee is fine, but ranged isnt: this is why
i see melee working together as they should, i see cav working together as they should, most of the time i see archers being damn solidsnake legolasses ssame for xbowers. and if it was like that always sure . but omg when archers decide to work together, man shit like that just puts fear into me, because when they decide to start teamplay they fuckin rape everything to bits. also consider this, if u get hit once by an archer all the other archers have free hits, u die. dodging archery has become near impossible and i see myself at end of battles hugging a tree and softly trying to cry myself to sleep waiting for then end. also ranged dousnt glance/whiff, i dont see archers shooting in volley mode, why not because they are fuckin snipers!! and more then not dous an archery hit take more damage form me then a melee hit, and that that is the real retarded thing imo, archery in game ballance should never ever hit harder then melee, but it dous alot. and no dont come wel haha thats lvl difference, no just no.
now to fall into repeating, i say it might be the fault of terrain that archery is so op, since movement is just limited alot by terrain, thus archers who abuse this increas theyr effectiveness by atleast 100%, also i hate it that a hornbow mw or not, can 3/4 shot me in full milanese plate QQ wtf is that shit right there fuck that shit.
You sound mad brah? jelly?
Problems is the amount of ranged AND ladders in battle. Gonna grind to 31 then it's bye bye EU1 for me.Dude it's throwing stop your crying Ranged is fine your just dumb for walking into my arrow. What do you want? Us to do the amount of dmg a rock does? Cry some more?
im sorry dom, but what im saying about terrain is right, on flat maps i dont have such a prob with range, its on hilly maps with cliffsides and such that i get very very annoyed, and well most maps have lots of that shit going on
Btw play Na1 it's way better were AMERICAN we have a clan called USA AMERICA (lljk) so yes it's way better :P. IDK if it's true but I see more admins on and better games there as well :PYou guys are "special" . You play with "special" weapons with "special" builds on "special" servers.
I was always wondering why there was so much whine about archery and so few about crossbows. The answer probalby is that we prohibited archers from entering melee while crossbower mostly retained this ability. So what's left to archers is turn and run or roofhugging. There are probably a lot more "fuck melee" archer builds because of that than crossbow builds without melee ability.
i was thinking, and talked to some clan archers, about some solutions : 1 is totally removing pierce damage from archery, they said they wouldnt mind that much, 2 was make bodkins only usable on last 2 bows, and decreace drawspeed slightly, but make bodkins cheaper to use,3 make ironflesh 3 points instead of 2 points, 4. increase armor soak on pierce. ah well just thoughts in the bigger picture, no major nerfing just finishing ballance touches.I disagree .
I was always wondering why there was so much whine about archery and so few about crossbows. The answer probalby is that we prohibited archers from entering melee while crossbower mostly retained this ability. So what's left to archers is turn and run or roofhugging. There are probably a lot more "fuck melee" archer builds because of that than crossbow builds without melee ability.Archers shoot more projectiles. And crossbow don't run away as much as archers. But damage-wise xbow deal way too much damage, it 1 hit me with solid 54h 53b 44l.
I'd be all for giving archers more melee power and less ranged power.
I was always wondering why there was so much whine about archery and so few about crossbows. The answer probalby is that we prohibited archers from entering melee while crossbower mostly retained this ability. So what's left to archers is turn and run or roofhugging. There are probably a lot more "fuck melee" archer builds because of that than crossbow builds without melee ability.
I know that some of those tincans can take 5+ hits from my +3 horn bow and loomed arrows
This. And remove ladders.i agree with removing ladders, but this is already being discussed in another thread.
Nice edit from 4-5. I guess it sounded better for your dear archer than 4, huh? I die at average from 3 arrows from a +3 horn bow with +3 arrows, and 2 arrows from rus / longbows. Thats with 62 body armor. 62 armor is quite alot, and it still doesnt protect me for shit.
4 arrows sound more likely to me, given the math. Unless you always face 8 or 9 PD archers.
How many arrows would be a fair amount to take against a double triple loom end level archer?
I was always wondering why there was so much whine about archery and so few about crossbows. The answer probalby is that we prohibited archers from entering melee while crossbower mostly retained this ability. So what's left to archers is turn and run or roofhugging. There are probably a lot more "fuck melee" archer builds because of that than crossbow builds without melee ability.
imo the problem is not too much ranged, but that one team often has a much higher proportion of ranged than the other. This leads to unfair battles for the team lacking in ranged support.
Xbow 1-shot? No... sorry but no. That's what I have been playing mostly and even some archers can take 2 bolts from my +3 arbalest +3 steel bolts. If it's raining, you might need 3!
You tell me what to do then. No PD or such affecting damage. Normal melee rarely die from 1 bolt unless already damaged. Semi-long range shots almost never 1 shot-kill. Sure if they run quickly at me and I fire at point-blank range. Then they often die with 1. But most of combat doesn't happen like that.
4 arrows sound more likely to me, given the math. Unless you always face 8 or 9 PD archers.
want a cool story bro?
ure a support class and so are archers, you are not supposed to top the charts, one shot ppl.
I am currently wearing heavy ass loomed plate just so you wouldnt one shot me, i play a lets say "slayer" class where i help my team killing allot of ppl (i consider maps under 20+ kills unnsucesfull rounds for me) cuz in the year ive played this i realised that is what im best at, im not super tactical, im not really patient, im not a really good rider so i rush in like a mad man creating oppenings, hoping my teammates will follow and benefit from my death if that occures.
i have 77 body armour and a bolt can sometimes take 70-80 percent of my HP, so you think that doesnt affect me? every fucking peasant cant one hit me after ur shot, so yes u have an immense impact of the battlefield, you are playing oyu role. if you wanna ge a tank play 2h/plate dont pewpew from the roof.
I'm not saying I want to one shot anyone. It was that other guy talking crap about such things happening. Sure from point-blank to light armour targets.
And as I told already, I'm not shooting anyone as 2h.
You tell me what to do then. No PD or such affecting damage. Normal melee rarely die from 1 bolt unless already damaged. Semi-long range shots almost never 1 shot-kill. Sure if they run quickly at me and I fire at point-blank range. Then they often die with 1. But most of combat doesn't happen like that.
Or maybe it's you doing something wrong if you die from 1 bolt...
The day you implemented slots, was the day my hybrid wept
BTW: I am neither archer nor crossbowman, nor a 2handed greatsword/polespammer HERO who wants the game balanced for them (as it has been for a while tbh), Im just a poor shmuck with a 1h sword and some javelins to stop the HA goons.
Fyi problem is not about ranged damage.
It is about ranged amount.
It's both man, dmg is crazy as well.
Guess what, get a fucking shield, it's not hard to waste 1 or 2 points in shield skill, arrows don't penetrate shields, bolts do.
I like how I managed to redirect some of the archer hate towards xbows.Actually i have an idea to lower projectile spam:
Two ideas I had to make turn and run less attractive for ranged would be
1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.
2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
I like how I managed to redirect some of the archer hate towards xbows.
Two ideas I had to make turn and run less attractive for ranged would be
1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.
2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
Dedicated archers will always pick more arrows from ground when they run out, just make it work ok (not like nowdays when you pick one, you lose all. Buggy as hell). Like this... they need to come down from roof at some point.
Win-Win.
2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
This might work for the hornbowmen, but for the archers with 2 slot bows (to which i belong), number 1 will not make a difference at all (the bow takes slots 1 and 2!). Also, why cant I just have my longbow and a long dagger? Thats my build, I like to have high agi and rush in and out of range while facestabbing people (if i cannot run).I agree but archery and xbows are the only "classes" that has increasing damage potential by looming 2 items.
About 2), why would a guy with a huge axe (or pole, or shield and 1h, etc) run faster than a guy with a piece of wood with a string to it?
Annoyed at archers running? Get some stones/throwing knives!
Annoyed at getting hit by arrows? Use a shield, it is not perfect, but it will protect you (at least it will force the archer to have to avoid it thus making him lose time).
About 3) by koyama, then there would be a huge unbalance between weapon looms and arrow looms, which would make it so much better to loom arrows, also wrt repair costs, it would need rebalancing, but i think it has potential
(click to show/hide)
Why is everyone SO upset over run and shoot archers. ITS SO EASY to disarm this tactic, just the same way you disarm backpeddlers: DONT FUCKING CHASE THEM! Just stand behind a tree/wall/teammate/horse/shield/rock/hill/castle/hut/mill/anything. If you dont chase them, they wont run. This will make ppl say "But how to kill then! Your stupid!" but in reality, it's the main tactic that WAS used by infantry to combat archers: Just hide. When they get bored of standing in an empty field they will come to look, and when they too close to escape, you jump out and bang. Dead archer. Chasing them is so stupid it makes my brain hurt that ppl like Paul are thinking of making chasing them more effective: CHASING ARCHERS is supposed to get you killed.
Ultimately, if you REALLY dont want to get shot, you can just make your hitboxes vanish in Warband anyway, by spamming your mouse while you feint spam: Unhitable by any ranged weapon: Its a glitch abuse but since it has never been adressed, I guess it qualifies as a feature. This works equally well in native and crpg. Anyone who says this isnt so has very limited experience of high end native players. They dont get shot, even with native lazergunbows.
You never play on EU_1 i guess =)(click to show/hide)
Why is everyone SO upset over run and shoot archers. ITS SO EASY to disarm this tactic, just the same way you disarm backpeddlers: DONT FUCKING CHASE THEM! Just stand behind a tree/wall/teammate/horse/shield/rock/hill/castle/hut/mill/anything. If you dont chase them, they wont run. This will make ppl say "But how to kill then! Your stupid!" but in reality, it's the main tactic that WAS used by infantry to combat archers: Just hide. When they get bored of standing in an empty field they will come to look, and when they too close to escape, you jump out and bang. Dead archer. Chasing them is so stupid it makes my brain hurt that ppl like Paul are thinking of making chasing them more effective: CHASING ARCHERS is supposed to get you killed.
Ultimately, if you REALLY dont want to get shot, you can just make your hitboxes vanish in Warband anyway, by spamming your mouse while you feint spam: Unhitable by any ranged weapon: Its a glitch abuse but since it has never been adressed, I guess it qualifies as a feature. This works equally well in native and crpg. Anyone who says this isnt so has very limited experience of high end native players. They dont get shot, even with native lazergunbows.
This will make ppl say "But how to kill then! Your stupid!" but in reality, it's the main tactic that WAS used by infantry to combat archers: Just hide. When they get bored of standing in an empty field they will come to look, and when they too close to escape, you jump out and bang.
I like how I managed to redirect some of the archer hate towards xbows.
Two ideas I had to make turn and run less attractive for ranged would be
1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.
2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
It's incredible how biased you are. Archers have way enough arrows to stay on roof for most of the round. Unless you actually want archers to have 15-20 arrows.
Just read what dev suggested before commenting loads of crap out of your mouth. Less arrows for archers...Tell me 1 archer that takes 3 quivers ? =)
Tell me 1 archer that takes 3 quivers ? =)
But chasing them without a shield or anything to throw at them IS RETARDED: Just dont chase them. They are almost all kids anyway, who will get bored and come to try to sneak shots at you in your hiding place, just keep slipping back and back untill they have over committed, and rape them.
MAKE them come to you, if they wait for flag, rush it, they have to fight or let you have it, if they try to shoot you off it, just spam mouse in circles and they cannot hit you...its that easy...ranged also only classtype that RUN OUT OF WEAPON: My sword never runs out of cuts, their bow WILL run out of ammo.
NO, I am 100% with Karasu, although I would like to see some give and take, and players recognise the real ranged problem: Crossbows. Arbalest IS a 1shot kill, if you are not 1hitting with an arbalest, you ARE doing it wrong.No offense, but I think a crossbowman is more qualified to say whether their weapon 1 shots all the time, or is hard to dodge. As said before, close quarters the crossbow has deccelerated less so retains it's damage, and is more likely to 1 shot. Also bring into that the speed bonus of running towards someone. In close combat, the release of the arbalest has a delay which can make shooting a skilled dodger pretty hard. I made a stf longbowman and I found it much easier to hit people from long distances, as shoot speed was nice for long distance, and I could adjust my aim more often if I missed. I often don't one shot with my arbalest, and it is masterworked, as are my steel bolts. With 130 wpf the reload time is not excellent. I won't deny it is one of the deadliest weapons in the game but I don't think it is either the problem here or the point of the thread.
So, in short, lots of archers can be a pain, but smart use of shields negates them: Arbalest spammers that shoot thru shields and still 1hit...who can wield a very powerful melee weapon, and wear heavy armour, combined with the new reload speeds of Xbows, and pinpoint accuracy crossmap, the extreme speed of the misile meaning its easy to aim, and hard to dodge.
I understand that the balance team includes a crossbow lover, but this is now ridiculous.
BTW: I am neither archer nor crossbowman, nor a 2handed greatsword/polespammer HERO who wants the game balanced for them (as it has been for a while tbh), Im just a poor shmuck with a 1h sword and some javelins to stop the HA goons.
You are playing in your dreams aren't you ? Hiding only leads to dying or loosing when the MOTF flags spawn. There's no way around that. The archer goes to the flag and flees when you approach, if he didn't kill you after all this, he's level 10 or a terrible player.
he's level 10 or a terrible player.Which you hardly see on EU_1 =)
do something for crossbows guys i keep getting oneshot in full lordly medium set, and not talkign about headshots. This is insane!
1)
Allowing ammo (arrows&bolts) only in the 3rd and 4th item slot. With that taking 3 ammo stacks is impossible and people would always have a spare slot for a melee weapon. It would fit the historical context too because I doubt that there were any ranged troops without a fallback melee weapon. Disadvantage some fellow dev brought up is that this reduces equipment layout choices. Obvious advantage is that it reduces the overall ammo count and the need for an archer to turn and run if he has no melee weapon.
2)
I'll ask cmp for the Native sprint mode code. Maybe we can make it so that someone with a bow or crossbow in the inventory has a slower sprint mode than a melee guy. With that even a lighter armored ranger can't simply run away, turn, shoot and run again. The melee guy would catch him quickly.
Also, I assume all arguments are based off ONE infantry vs ONE archer, after that is doesnt matter what class you are, 2v1 you are going to die unless the 2 are utter noobs.
2 archers vs 1 melee ? The melee, with or without shield, dies. Archers don't get in the way of each other and the benefits of outnumbering the enemy are greater than with any other class.
@ Karasu: Only pick up arrows of your own type: If you got bodkins, any bodkins (any level of 'looming) will get you an arrow without a bug, but any other type will mess your slots up: I think this is fine, dont be greedy, stick to arrows you got.
Sadly it doesn't work that way, several times happened to me to pick up other arrows of the same type and same loom level, and I got 0 arrows on both or 1 quiver.
It's not a matter of being greedy, it's a matter of using the brain if you get more chances to win.
2 melee vs 1 melee ? The solo guy has good chances.
Get a shield ppl!!So what you're saying is become the archer only without the bow to counter?
What! you're not able to put your shield in multi differencial way, you noob!
What! xbow bolt are not stopped by your shield, you must be a noob then!
What! this archer run faster than you, hey noob you should have 8 athletic with no armor!
What! they are on roof, you don't have your pocket ladder, you noob!
So what you're saying is become the archer only without the bow to counter?
What! this archer run faster than you, hey noob you should have 8 athletic with no armor!
I have 8 ath and 5 total armor weight and a 4.5 weight Old Heater shield and I can't catch them archers :?
Probably the shield.I have something bout 5 weight in armor and 7 ath and I catch almost every archer these days.
Take away the shield and just run weirdly around :D many archers will fail, especially if you are close so they get fearsome and miss their shots.
NO. 2 melee who arent hungry hippos can easily dispose of 1 enemy: 2 hungry hippos can easily die to 1 enemy: I stated, decent players. A decent player will help his teammate, they will back the guy up untill he has nowhere to go, then they will attack with different swings: no way to block 2 directions, your dead. Im not interested in how noobs rush into each others way in a massive teamhitting orgy. Thats not a gank, its just wank.
Poll result : "Lots of ranged makes the game unplayable ..."
Pls answer this question : Why don't play on this server : http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,20872.0.html ? I play on this server some times but i see only 2 or 3 player, why don't come? I know why : U don't know how to block, can't found easy targets (archers).
My suggestion enough understandable : Remove archery from game and give free respec. (Devs remove horse archery (because cRPG must like Stronghold) but don't give free respec...) Everyone egocentric why ? I want see in this game all class balanced like this : 2H = HA = Archery = Lance = Polearm = Throwing = Shield... But i dont see (K-D) 50-1 archer but i see cav or 2H...
Archers can't use heavy armors or ironflesh, but i don't see any archer say this : "archery ruining my game :cry:" We are (archers) most easy targets for other archers but its not runing our game.
Pls play on cRPG_Melee, happy games. Thanks for read.
English very very bad ?
The reason many people don't go on pure melee servers is because there most players are extremely good duelers and have pure melee builds. Any build that trades a little melee power for a shield or to use a horse are and will always be sub-par there.Seems like that archers can even catch ya up on the melee only servers and ruin your game. Truly, they are OP, we should get rid of'em!
lalala...
You guys aint helpin' with your bunch of archer alts either.
As the good old Razor Ramon would say: "You picked the wrong guy, Chico".Well maybe i did, maybe Montgomery_Burns aint your alt, then i apologize to you. You cant blame me, he seems very similar to your char. :wink:
Well maybe i did, maybe Montgomery_Burns aint your alt, then i apologize to you. You cant blame me, he seems very similar to your char.
Sounds more like knights to me. :D
As bandits, i would imagine some forest ambush of cowardly archers 'n' scums with knifes.
4 arrows sound more likely to me, given the math. Unless you always face 8 or 9 PD archers.
How many arrows would be a fair amount to take against a double triple loom end level archer?Ya right, now i have to apologize for real, for pointing out any kind of similarity between Gnjus mugface and that Montgomery's guy.
you sure about thay paul, i have trouble one shotting archers and other light armour players take three sometimes with my mw arbalst and mw steel bolt, and people are saying nerf the xbow! i don't think so, it should be buffed if anything and the accuracy is awful since it's been nerfed, i got 179 wpf and it fly's all over the place
Bandits were mostly 2h/polearm/cavalry.
Btw(,) play Na1(*NA1)(,) it's way better(.) were(We're) AMERICAN(,) we have a clan called USA AMERICA (lljk)(,) so yes it's way better :P. IDK if it's true but I see more admins on and better games(? not just cRPG?) there as well :P
1st: With WSE more or less anything is possible, that's at least what the devs said. How about dividing damage types into ranged an melee damage? This way you could make certain things (horses, armours, shields) extraordinarily resistant to ranged damage, while still being vulnerable to melee. Horses would be such an item, making light cavalry a better archer hunter. (Which, on the other hand, would make horse archers more of a bitch... hhmmm... :? )
English very very bad ?
So i did a test right now on EU 1
i was going for an archer called Blackbow_the_Pimp trying to dodge the arrows but not really basically running at him.
im wearing lordly milanese plate and lordly plate mittens with 21 STR 100% HP and 4 IF.
He had Rus Bow and Bodkins.
I was dead in exactly 3 arrows, no headshots, all 3 bodyshots.
You tell me if that is "balanced" or "viable"
cheers
Did the pot just call the kettle black? Methinks it did. Ironic.
Blackbow is not even hard to kill, AND hes not the best shot. If you are upset that a player with just as many or more heirlooms than you killed you in 3 hits, WHY are you? How many times would you have to hit him to kill him? 1? 2? 3 if he manages to walk "into" your swing so it catches him just at start of animation and does little dmg? You cannot kill him from range, he cannot kill you in melee, you both made descisions, sounds like you just butthurt that he made a better one. Stop raging at archers. They aren't OP, they aren't even P anymore. They are just peasants once you reach them, and if your entire team has no shielders/heavy cav to flatten them, blame balance, not their class choices.
I don't want to play without bagge,jambi,zerobot1(New pain in the ass:P),nebun,hetman,radh,KMC,Pandor,Sojetsu,Tenne,OktarBabuna etc...
DISCUSS !!!!
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visitors can't see pics , please register or loginI unintentionally click on "Like" :lol:
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For those players having trouble with ranged spam, i would suggest more teamplay.
Ive seen alot of players in 22nd, who know perfectly how to deal with ranged.
Find a shielder and buddy up with him.
ah yess dadonah , i will spamm cmp and chadz with this picture until they ban me or remove ladders :D
this should be the new movement!
make a topic nao!
I'm no admin (god forbid) but if I was and if you ever requested a name change (while it was not allowed) from Blind Guy into a Stupid Guy I'd accept it and abuse the system willingly within a second, just because you deserve it, even if it meant for chadz to strip me off my admin duties.
That's a great argument style: can't counter my point so you call me stupid. Looks like YOU need to apply for that namechange, from Gnjus to Im_Butthurt_that_I_cant_dodge_so_it_MUST_be_the_games_fault. You never even THOUGHT for a second about it: Blackbow is lvl 33 for example: YES hes gonna rape ppl quickly and effectively from range, same as a good 2hander at lvl 33 walks thru large melees, dropping players left and right with a single swing, while swords and axes bounce from his face and chest.
Then guess what: he clears out to other side of the battle, archers see him, they shoot him down in 3/4/5 arrows. But if they dont, and he gets to them: He kills them in 1/2 hits. Unless you make archers viable in melee again, you cannot nerf their ranged abilities. I think we can ALL agree now that the issue IS archers AND Daveclones being ROOFMONKEYS, not archers being OP. Because while I dont miss platearchers 1hitting everything they focus on in a single hit from 3 miles off, I also don't miss the way you USED to rush to an archer to see them pull out a Poleaxe bigger than yours, swing it faster and kill off another 20 players in melee.
Also, while he is being elitist about it, Jambi is right: The good archers DONT camp the roofs. I didnt mainly because with how innacurate a MW longbow is at 6PD, I wanted to make nice shots, so I would be right behind my teammates, shooting enemies as they try to engage with my mates.
Removing ladders seems an extreme measure, since they can be fun, but maybe limiting them to siege is the easiest solution without any class having its heirlooms rendered useless once again...
You never even THOUGHT for a second about it: Blackbow is lvl 33 for example: YES hes gonna rape ppl quickly and effectively from range, same as a good 2hander at lvl 33 walks thru large melees, dropping players left and right with a single swing, while swords and axes bounce from his face and chest.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
bla bla... im so smart and "tactical"
i have 70 body armour and i find that a dedicated archer ( with looms ) will 3 shot me too
Get rid off rooftops, and 92% of these Archers you named would suck terrible :-)
I still like to play on EU 1... if only it is to set an example for other "good" archers, that you dont need to camp rooftops to be on the top of the board.
If you want to breed haters as an archers, do it in a honorable way.
Make yourself a target, support your melee teammates, eliminate the good players on the enemy team.
Do not spam arrows from some hard to reach rooftop at random peasants. Its lame and not skillfull.
All-in-all dont go for the kills, go for the team.
But yeah, the amount of range spam is getting horrible.
Ive said it already so many times....
Nerf like they did too archers, remove there ability to hybrid. Give them same restrictions as archers have on armor/weapons.
Nerf Rooftops
Nerf the Hornbow, unable use of bodkin arrows for 5 and less PD req bows. Nerf the speed.
And i think banner balance sometimes realy fucks up the teams. Sometimes you get 3 diffrent clan stacked up against a team of randomers
PS. if i were to give you names of good archers. i would name
Merc_Mustikki (my inspiration when i started playing cRPG)
DRZ_Nebun
DRZ_Hetman
Remove ladders....
Game is unplayable last days... 3 hits and you are doomed...
Something should be done about number of ranged... there are usualy several archers ft. almost every third person using xbow, if you add HA's...
You dont have to be genius to figure out that somethings wrong...
If you can't figure out some shit, than you can see all of that flyin' shit all around when you enter server, except if you aren't BlindGay...
Btw. sometimes there is too much cav, but you can handle that with long spear or pike.. ranged guys just run away and delay if Thomek's not on server :mrgreen:
SMRT FAIZMU, SLOBODA NARODU!
at least against cav you have a chance to fight back. instead dodging zillion flying stuff and being kited then surrounded in the end is not worth the time. that's also why a lot of people have ranged alts to log just in case... and then starts the ranged CoD: Medieval Warfare galore.
then people start switching to siege, ranged gets bored to play CoD in battle and join siege too. but at least in siege you can let the archers run to hell while you do your cap/defend duties.
You just jelly cause I gave my stuff to Xant :D
I would give it to you if you weren't damn friendly archer :P
Only 2Hs get to wear 2H gear!
at least against cav you have a chance to fight back. instead dodging zillion flying stuff and being kited then surrounded in the end is not worth the time. that's also why a lot of people have ranged alts to log just in case... and then starts the ranged CoD: Medieval Warfare galore.you got a point here. I actually prefer to walk in the open field and face cav with a no stab weapon than staying close to village and get shot into pieces.
then people start switching to siege, ranged gets bored to play CoD in battle and join siege too. but at least in siege you can let the archers run to hell while you do your cap/defend duties.
I get that you feel threatened because so far ranged was such an easy and convenient way to play but it seems that there's some deep fallacy in the archers perspective if you see nothing wrong with game mechanics that makes it extremely difficult to fight against you unless they heavily outnumber you and cooperate just to kill you, one guy.
If the devs wanted to fix the problem with the current ranged spam they should imho.
A. Increase the weight of the bows so they cant kite around all day an remove ladders archer´s can keep their High dmg pierce bodkins arrows but they will be forced to engage their counter classes such as shielder´s an cav.
B. Archer´s lose their bodkin arrows with pierce and only the longbow have the pierce dmg like before the archer buff but they can still kite all day an camp roofs but they will be forced to aim for weak spots to deal the same dmg as before.
I prefer A. Tbh since i don't mind the dmg archers deal but that you cant catch em or force em down for the roofs...
Its pretty plain an simple right now the only good counter to range is other ranged thus we have the current sick amount of ranged players...
If they devs really want´s more teamplay into cRPG why is it only the inf who have to play that way an not archers??
PS: im a shielder so dont give me the bring a shield argument :wink:
you see, the points is not the good archers... the no-skilled archers just kite you forever since they never gave a shot to learn some basic melee stuff.
Funny Tzar.
Awesome to see that most people whining about ranged are Strenght stacking characters. 1-2 hit people in melee and abuse polestagger.
He's 1H shield, so he ain't busing polestagger anymore.
Also, I've been 30/9, 27/12 and now 21/18. The two first ones were frustrating because winning 1 vs. 4 and other type of gankings was next to impossible because you were basically a snail. The last one, the one I'm using now is frustrating because an archer with rus bow takes over 50 % of my health with one arrow. I doubt it's the strength stackers that whines because archers were tolerable for me when I used strength builds. :)
blablabla i'm hero blabla try to play like me blablabla
blablabla you trying to be a hero while I AM blablabla
you don't know who i am! you never saw me! i'll do the JAMBI SIDESTEP plus roundhouse AOE arrows volley of the dragon fire!
blah my build is blah blah technically STR nails bla bla but i'm jambi so blah blah
Meh people like 22nd_Phase still gets me alot. He has around 9 athletics, kills every kind of build he sees.. and survives thru most of the mid-rounds.
I tihnk most people just need more teamplay, L2P, show shield or gtfo :D
Hint: there's 0 req shields now... that you can use to get from Cover point A to Cover point B! wewewt!
happens you have a brother playing cRPG? maybe called Olwen or LOLwen?
Funny Tzar.
Awesome to see that most people whining about ranged are Strenght stacking characters. 1-2 hit people in melee and abuse polestagger.
But ontop of that they also want to faster then everyone else.
I suggest you play DC Universe Tzar, you can play as a super hero there. :lol:
What's your point, silly?
discovering great egos is fun.
trolling wannabe heroes is fun.
reading biased balance points by a one-man-army wannabes is fun.
olwen in the past, jambi today, me tomorrow?
no offense meant. boring saturday night, baby is sleeping, wife is watching supernatural episode 10.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QBmTHwR3hg
Yes, it was nice to see a whole group of mercs online.
Yesterday I visited the American siege server and the whole reddit team played together.
discovering great egos is fun.
trolling wannabe heroes is fun.
reading biased balance points by a one-man-army wannabes is fun.
save internets billings and use mirror.
I just want to throw in two things that come to my mind that could perhaps, under certain circumstances and with a lot of luck shift the relation between ranged and melee fighters into the right direction again. Unlike usually this time I am everything but sure my suggestions are good, so I just mention them and explain them shortly, and someone might pick them up and either support or decline them.
1st: With WSE more or less anything is possible, that's at least what the devs said. How about dividing damage types into ranged an melee damage? This way you could make certain things (horses, armours, shields) extraordinarily resistant to ranged damage, while still being vulnerable to melee. Horses would be such an item, making light cavalry a better archer hunter. (Which, on the other hand, would make horse archers more of a bitch... hhmmm... :? )
2nd: Perhaps it's the wrong approach to try to lower the amount of archers by nerfing them and making them unattractive? How about making the other classes, especially infantry more attractive? You could lower the item weight of shields and melee weapons. Of course this would buff cavalry as well, but item weight is not so much of a problem for them. Or you could make a bigger "gap" between the protection values of light and medium armour. I still say that infantry is the least attractive class of all three "supra-classes".
Here, just for you.just thought id bump this up again, since its solid proofs, before paul comes in with his archer propaganda
This is against Nord_Hans, lvl 27, 7pd 151archery wpf, +3 rus bow and +3 tatar arrows
On my character I got 18 strength, 2 ironflesh, 62 body armor:
Running towards;(click to show/hide)
Standing still;(click to show/hide)
And one of the shots when we tested did almost no dmg at all:(click to show/hide)
Now I wonder how that would be against bodkins!
Wat? I did similar tests and calculations. What is your point? My is that tatar and bodkins aren't that different damagewise after patch while people still hug that bodkins horribly OP myth. Do you want to take 6 arrows or more in your armor? Do you want archers only to shot other archers while you meleegay undisturbed? Also, get some more IF.
if you want them to make so much damage, why they need to be so precise? balance things ffs
That's fucking bullshit. Archers are one of the weakest classes and without the roof camp thingy they will be fucked even more. And I still hope chadz will agree to ladder removal for battle at some point.
archer nerfs:
PD wpf reduction
ammo nerf
-
-damage nerf,
-shot speed nerf,
-jump shot removal,
-armor restriction,
-melee weapon restiction (slot system),etc.
As an individual in cRPG it usually sucks to be an archer.
That's fucking bullshit. Archers are one of the weakest classes and without the roof camp thingy they will be fucked even more. And I still hope chadz will agree to ladder removal for battle at some point.
There had been a long history of archer nerfs and while I keep them in mind most people do forget them. PD wpf reduction, ammo nerf, damage nerf(in the beginning every bow/arrow was pierce), shot speed nerf, jump shot removal, armor restriction, melee weapon restiction (slot system), a lot slower than Native animations, etc.
As an individual in cRPG it usually sucks to be an archer. However for Strategus archers rule. That caused the increased amount of archer (mains) for me. People get shot more often and then rage about it.
Also you said that you have 2 IF before.
Instead of damage or precision nerfs(latter is the death of skillbased archery) I would do this 3 point plan:
1) Get 'em off the roofs!
Simply remove ladders from battles. Ranged will be forced to fight from reachable places, making them much more vulnerable to cav(in the open) or sneaky inf (with buildings) attacks. Archers would probably suffer more from that because crossbowmen usually got an excellent awareness thanks to the reloading break. This would probalby encourage teamplay. chadz is against ladder removal as it is now though.
2) Don't let 'em get away!
Lower the ability to sprint for players with bows or xbows in the inventory. This will make turn&run less effective because for example a shielder could catch up while at the moment he is usually outpaced. Encourages teamplay together with inf.
3) Make 'em real men!
No melee weapon builds and equipment layouts of course lead to turn&run tactics. I would make it so that there is no real reason not to bring a sidearm for an archer. For that I would lower the maximum amount of ammo stacks to 2, probably only allow them in the 3rd and 4th equipment slot. With that archers should bring a melee weapon and maybe even make them stand and fight instead of running. Encourages teamplay even more because even if the archer can't kill the meleegay he can at least keep him busy with blocking until help arrives.
3) Make 'em real men!
That's fucking bullshit. Archers are one of the weakest classes and without the roof camp thingy they will be fucked even more. And I still hope chadz will agree to ladder removal for battle at some point.
There had been a long history of archer nerfs and while I keep them in mind most people do forget them. PD wpf reduction, ammo nerf, damage nerf(in the beginning every bow/arrow was pierce), shot speed nerf, jump shot removal, armor restriction, melee weapon restiction (slot system), a lot slower than Native animations, etc.
As an individual in cRPG it usually sucks to be an archer. However for Strategus archers rule. That caused the increased amount of archer (mains) for me. People get shot more often and then rage about it.
Also you said that you have 2 IF before.
Instead of damage or precision nerfs(latter is the death of skillbased archery) I would do this 3 point plan:
1) Get 'em off the roofs!
Simply remove ladders from battles. Ranged will be forced to fight from reachable places, making them much more vulnerable to cav(in the open) or sneaky inf (with buildings) attacks. Archers would probably suffer more from that because crossbowmen usually got an excellent awareness thanks to the reloading break. This would probalby encourage teamplay. chadz is against ladder removal as it is now though.
2) Don't let 'em get away!
Lower the ability to sprint for players with bows or xbows in the inventory. This will make turn&run less effective because for example a shielder could catch up while at the moment he is usually outpaced. Encourages teamplay together with inf.
3) Make 'em real men!
No melee weapon builds and equipment layouts of course lead to turn&run tactics. I would make it so that there is no real reason not to bring a sidearm for an archer. For that I would lower the maximum amount of ammo stacks to 2, probably only allow them in the 3rd and 4th equipment slot. With that archers should bring a melee weapon and maybe even make them stand and fight instead of running. Encourages teamplay even more because even if the archer can't kill the meleegay he can at least keep him busy with blocking until help arrives.
Instead of damage or precision nerfs(latter is the death of skillbased archery) I would do this 3 point plan:
1) Get 'em off the roofs!
Simply remove ladders from battles. Ranged will be forced to fight from reachable places, making them much more vulnerable to cav(in the open) or sneaky inf (with buildings) attacks. Archers would probably suffer more from that because crossbowmen usually got an excellent awareness thanks to the reloading break. This would probalby encourage teamplay. chadz is against ladder removal as it is now though.
2) Don't let 'em get away!
Lower the ability to sprint for players with bows or xbows in the inventory. This will make turn&run less effective because for example a shielder could catch up while at the moment he is usually outpaced. Encourages teamplay together with inf.
3) Make 'em real men!
No melee weapon builds and equipment layouts of course lead to turn&run tactics. I would make it so that there is no real reason not to bring a sidearm for an archer. For that I would lower the maximum amount of ammo stacks to 2, probably only allow them in the 3rd and 4th equipment slot. With that archers should bring a melee weapon and maybe even make them stand and fight instead of running. Encourages teamplay even more because even if the archer can't kill the meleegay he can at least keep him busy with blocking until help arrives.
Problem is there are too much (or too often) village maps. So it becomes a roof fest.
Making roof unreachable is not enough also. We need some more open fields.
Some ruins/small walls/rivers/woods are ok in the field but no more village every round.
Totally agree with 3) but the other two you simply can't have both at the same time. Taking this into account would make sense, not to even gimp the archer more (surviv-wise) but fix the ladder system in battle servers.
There are several methods to tweak this on battle servers imo, either make them unbreakable or extremely hard to break, make ladder unsheathable once again, limit the number of ladders available per round/map, get new admins to avoid constant game stalling :oops:, etc.
A single decent shielder can go up that ladder and wreck havoc amongst the several camping players, a single decent arbalester can clear a rooftop 1 by 1 easily, damn even horsies can go to rooftops sometimes D:
These are just small tweaks that can easily avoid the "kill it with fire" easy option regarding archery.
Maps on Siege are even worse.
YEAH gotta hate those siege maps. With the castles, and the walls...its like, defense get such a big advantage being able to hang out on those towers. I mean, I LIKE attack, but hit hard.This +100
Injustice.
/sarcasm
Your supposed to be killed in droves by rain of arrows in siege, that's why attackers get instant respaws while defenders have a coffee break each time they down.
I dont see archers complaining too much about the facts that: If they want to kill with arrows they sacrifice accuracy through PD, the new armour weights mean they MORE innacurate, they can either have ammo or a decent sidearm, they sacrifice ammo for PD, if they not aware they get raped by SILENT footed guys in plate armour who must have Sneak skill at 100 to be so quiet, cav that doesnt always make a noise before they are couch lanced, throwes who can one hit them while dodging.
WHY dont they complain too much? Answer: realistic perspective: EVERY other class rapes them in melee, they rape UNAWARE guys. Just that. Players who arent dodging, hiding, shielding, spamming mouse to banish hitboxes, too far away, behind teammates. Even then, with 6PD and a Rus/Longbow, 1 shot in 5 that you aim well at an unaware player just goes AWOL off at a tangent, arrows clip on buildings/poles/trees/walls/rocks where swords go right thru, sometimes the arrow just hits warpspeed and vanishes (Although this is still present, it has been much improved).
Im very sorry to who my opinion offends, but I still see 95% of players complaints about archers as the whine of players who just dont like getting shot cause they built 15/24 with all WPF in 2hander so they can be the epic hero their ego believes them to be. Guess what guys: best warrior from myth and legend is Achilles, and he died to arrow spam, just like Boromir.
Now go reroll with a shield and 7 athletics: have fun hunting archers in their dozens, I know I am.
Wow this is a post for a bunch of whiney bitches. Don't like the game? Don't play. I don't need to hear your shit. Arcvhers are fine it takes 3-4 arrows with 8pd for me to kill a medium armored guy so it's fair. There's tons of us... There's tons of melee! Don't remove ladders make them unbreakable in battle only breakable in sige. Shut your shit up about turn and shoot. It's luck if we kill you. It's a valid tactic. When 4 guys chase us around the map those 4 guys are out of the fight and therefor it's tactically applicable. SHUT UR SHIT UP STOP BITCHINGNevermind dude, just nevermind.
Btw Auto Balance is fine. The other day I was on a team of 20vs40 the 20 team won because auto balance is cool :P You hate auto balance when you lose and love it when you win. Shut your bitching up. chadz doesn't listen to bitching so if you have a valid complaint make one and stop your crying.
Nevermind dude, just nevermind.Dude... I read this post and it made me angry. Yes this game needs improvements. Melee fighters complain about archers ans Cav because they get killed by them. Nerf us till we do no dmg right? Please shut up we got nerfed enough. LEAVE Britney ALONE
Arcvhers are fine it takes 3-4 arrows with 8pd for me to kill a medium armored guy so it's fair.
Btw Auto Balance is fine.
Wow this is a post for a bunch of whiney bitches. Don't like the game? Don't play. I don't need to hear your shit. Arcvhers are fine it takes 3-4 arrows with 8pd for me to kill a medium armored guy so it's fair.
So i did a test right now on EU 1
i was going for an archer called Blackbow_the_Pimp trying to dodge the arrows but not really basically running at him.
im wearing lordly milanese plate and lordly plate mittens with 21 STR 100% HP and 4 IF.
He had Rus Bow and Bodkins.
I was dead in exactly 3 arrows, no headshots, all 3 bodyshots.
You tell me if that is "balanced" or "viable"
cheers
Arcvhers are fine it takes 3-4 arrows with 8pd for me to kill a medium armored guy so it's fair.
SHUT UR SHIT UP STOP BITCHING
many many times i fought in 15vs25-30 and sometimes winning just to see the red text "you don't get a bonus multiplicator. Team1-14500 Team2-234356736345345635767
i even saw a 8vs25. elite players in team1, peasants and average jam in team2. team1 obviously won with the 8 players doing a race bout the score. so no...
autobalance "should" mix high teamvalue players with low teamvalue players.
Get a shield.
many many times i fought in 15vs25-30 and sometimes winning just to see the red text "you don't get a bonus multiplicator. Team1-14500 Team2-234356736345345635767It is because ur awesome.
i even saw a 8vs25. elite players in team1, peasants and average jam in team2. team1 obviously won with the 8 players doing a race bout the score. so no...
autobalance "should" mix high teamvalue players with low teamvalue players.
It is because ur awesome.
lol the situation on EU 1 atm is horrible, only 40-50 ppl most of them ranged, shotguns around every corner, easy topping the charts with and archer troll alt.
come one come all we having fun!
lol the situation on EU 1 atm is horrible, only 40-50 ppl most of them ranged, shotguns around every corner, easy topping the charts with and archer troll alt.
come one come all we having fun!
i think there is no point playing a game if isn't fun. that's why i don't play normal battles anymore. pity the ranged assjam start to infest siege servers too.
lol yeah played siege today and over 50% of my deaths were by ranged.
go back to your roofs in battle.....
actually in siege they did very well. a lot of archers got really good stats
and were in the top scores.
Get a brain?I remember the times i had one... Good times good times :mrgreen: .
(Sorry, was easy).
Anyway, plz stay on battle server don't come to siege!
yes but at least if you get headshot at the spawn, you respawn again in seconds.. we can even live with that .. while in battle no. so less pain...
an = a, e, i, o, u.
a = b, c, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, r, s, t, v, w, x, y, z.
An hour
an = a, e, i, o, u.What is this?
a = b, c, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, r, s, t, v, w, x, y, z.
What is this?
Devs should either start playing their own game, or get some advisors that are objective and play the game and have them point out the obvious flaws in this game. Battle is getting less and less fun for me.
I <3 Melee only Server.Me too, its fun, sadly for some reason I have a 130 ms on all not official servers since today. EU 1 is making me cry a little.
edit it before a "buy a shield!" mob scream flood the thread!
Get a fucking shield or stand behind a tree if you don't want to get shot, ranged units served a vital purpose in middle age battles.
What is this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czb4jn5y94g
On subject :
"The path of the righteous melee is beset on all sides, By the inequities of the archers and the tyranny of crossbowmen.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, Shepherds the noobs through the valley of arrowstorms,
For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost fun.
And I will remove ladders upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger Those who attempt to poison and destroy cRPG.
And you will know my name is the Player when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
Thx new sig an also i can just see Samuel jackson preaching that shit mayn
Thank you too !
May that glorious sig invade this forum.
something you need to study :lol:Me and studying you nuts?
I want to change my vote, I voted 'Main problem is ladders to roofs , the amount of ranged is fine.' It isn't, its getting worse, the amount of archers is going berserk. There is too much ranged on the server. And they deal too much damage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czb4jn5y94g
On subject :
"The path of the righteous melee is beset on all sides, By the inequities of the archers and the tyranny of crossbowmen.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, Shepherds the noobs through the valley of arrowstorms,
For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost fun.
And I will remove ladders upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger Those who attempt to poison and destroy cRPG.
And you will know my name is the Player when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
Heavy spoiler incoming, content not safe for viewing & working, especially if you're animals friend:(click to show/hide)
Heavy spoiler incoming, content not safe for viewing & working, especially if you're animals friend:(click to show/hide)
Made a few changes to that sig hope u don't mind lol
Funny thing is it can often be anti whatever threads that increase numbers. I remember the anti-HA thread that went on for pages and pages. Before that thread, there were around maybe 4-5 regular HA's on the EU servers. After that thread reached 15 pages or so, suddenly there was a huge jump in HA alts and we were suddenly regularly seeing 5 or more in a server at once. These 'zomg its OP and killing the mod' threads actually just make the situation worse because people gravitate towards something if it's said to be to strong.Which is great, I have been recently convinced that making the ranged spam worse and worse is the only way devs are ever going to fix it. So look for my archer alt soon. If 50% of the server is archer and hundreds of players start leaving cRPG, they'll probably stop and think that something is wrong.
Which is great, I have been recently convinced that making the ranged spam worse and worse is the only way devs are ever going to fix it. So look for my archer alt soon. If 50% of the server is archer and hundreds of players start leaving cRPG, they'll probably stop and think that something is wrong.
This thread is not at all a zomg its OP mod. AFAIK its actually underpowered individually, but should be nerfed further because the class is hugely popular and needs to be inferior to keep the percentage of archers reasonable.
If they would just remove the ladder 80% of my issue with this would be solved. The other 20% I'm able to live with. If the devs don't see the need for that, they should start playing their own fucking mod, alternatively they could listen to the community. I think the majority definitely thinks that ladders should be gone and have good reasons for that.
Played about 4 maps yesterday on EU_1. Every map pretty much every single archer was on the roof.
Let me guess,someone stole your sweet roll ?half the "warriors" of each team were on the roofs ?
I found the solution.
Wear no armor get a crossbow + shield + 1 slot 2h weapon like mace and enjoy your WW1 alike battle.
Move from cover to cover and shoot behind trenches .
I think it would be interesting to add more of an objective to battle. (Such as Master of the Field spawning much earlier, to force some movements.)
Instead of damage or precision nerfs(latter is the death of skillbased archery) I would do this 3 point plan:Oh my god, I missed this post. Paul is agreeing with the community without trying to be funny! Now tell chadz to stop crying cause his precious ladders will still be on strat and siege, or tell him to play a few hours on EU_1 as his polearm character.
1) Get 'em off the roofs!
Simply remove ladders from battles. Ranged will be forced to fight from reachable places, making them much more vulnerable to cav(in the open) or sneaky inf (with buildings) attacks. Archers would probably suffer more from that because crossbowmen usually got an excellent awareness thanks to the reloading break. This would probalby encourage teamplay. chadz is against ladder removal as it is now though.
2) Don't let 'em get away!
Lower the ability to sprint for players with bows or xbows in the inventory. This will make turn&run less effective because for example a shielder could catch up while at the moment he is usually outpaced. Encourages teamplay together with inf.
3) Make 'em real men!
No melee weapon builds and equipment layouts of course lead to turn&run tactics. I would make it so that there is no real reason not to bring a sidearm for an archer. For that I would lower the maximum amount of ammo stacks to 2, probably only allow them in the 3rd and 4th equipment slot. With that archers should bring a melee weapon and maybe even make them stand and fight instead of running. Encourages teamplay even more because even if the archer can't kill the meleegay he can at least keep him busy with blocking until help arrives.
I'd say let's meet in the middle first and see how it goes.
Make ladders more exclusive, 3 or 4 slots for the smaller ones too (or all, simply)
I see why ladders are a cool feature, just its a problem that every pure 2h or pole, or many shielders can bring them, even archers with 1 slot bows and 1 quiver.. or xbowmen etc..
with 3 slots ladders, no ranged can carry them without loosing their ranged ability, and pole and 2h would nerf themselves to inferior weapons if they choose to bring ladders.
With 4 slots ladders, only the most hardcore teamplayer with a self sacrificing mind would bring them. Players sacrificing themselves for the team or multi is pretty rare...
Anyhow I think such a change would make roofcamping a rare occurence, rather than every single map.. Perhaps.
With 4 slots ladders, only the most hardcore teamplayer with a self sacrificing mind would bring them. Players sacrificing themselves for the team or multi is pretty rare...