Lol by four huh? whered you get this number from? your ass? you make that thing any shorter/less damaging and every one will just go back to using the military pick. So basically what your arguing for is to take it out completely because that's what you'll end up doing.
Steel Pick 6889
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
Warhammer 7550
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown
Pick is fine, it has 1 damage type and 3 attacks.
Warhammer has 3 blunt damage attacks, which according to the calculator (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm) do the most damage against armor. Warhammer also has 1 piercing attack, which is the only damage type for the pick.
I think the pick is alright...it's damn short, ever tried using one?
wrong tactic
There are a lot of tactics against str builds with short weapons. You can...
...kick with your feet and use the stun
...go back while swinging your 2h (hey... use the length)
...use a long maul
...cav, throwing, archer
...use an axe. Shield will be destroyed in a few hits and 1h blocking is bad cause of stun.
...better timing with your 1h/2h
...whatever
Kicking is hardly something that's reliable for the vast majority of players and missing one usually means death.Xant... cmon... you are a very good player. We could discuss some of your comments... so e.g. 1h blocking is different than 2h blocking... it is not the same because of the stun.
Use the length you say? How? You can sneak in a hit now and then if you've got a lot of agi by backpedalling but that's about it.
You have to use a specific weapon to counter it? And long maul counters everything else just as much.
Cav, throwing, archer? Forgot about the shield?
OK, your shield is destroyed. Now you have to actually... gasp.. manual block! And you still have the advantage.
So, "Play better?" Well d'uh. A level 1 peasant can kill a level 31 player if the peasant plays better. Doesn't mean it's balanced.
Xant... cmon... you are a very good player. We could discuss some of your comments... so e.g. 1h blocking is different than 2h blocking... it is not the same because of the stun.
But whats the big picture? At least for me I can say I die often enough... cause the opponent has better tactic or I make a mistake. e.g. I know 2h player against them I loose almost every time.
And yes... sometimes you need a specific build or weapon against a specific opponent. But thats normal. I build a thrower - Francine - explicitely against 2h spammer and cav. And it works quite well.
A 1h cannot do anything against lance cav. A 2h str nothing against archer. and so on.
So we have to work as a team in a battle. Every build has its strength and its weakeness. But imho the most player want to be a hero with every build... win against all types of enemies. That does not work.
Point is, the counters you list have nothing to do with the weapon, except perhaps the length. The comparison should be made to other 1h weapons - or 2h, considering it gets 39 pierce and 102 speed at gen3, which is much better than a gen3 german greatsword which is supposedly the 2h pierce weapon.Ok... lets compare it with other 1h weapons. How? 10cm length are worth 1 speed point?
Ok... lets compare it with other 1h weapons. How? 10cm length are worth 1 speed point?
Suggestion... we use statistic. Let us see which 1h weapon is used how often and how many kills are done with it.
According to my experience a weapon or a weapon type which is clearly overpowered will be used by a lot of people and cause a lot of kills. If there are no significant more kills than with other 1h weapons there is no overpowerment.
First, we should have to calculate median of k/d ratio among lvl 30. players who use pick over other 1h weapons. Then we would have to worry about sample size.You are right.
You are right.
But at the moment I simple look around and I dont see a lot of steel picks. I dont fight very often against another steel pick user.
An example would be the sword of cookies. A few weeks ago a lot of people used it cause of its effectiveness. Clear sign of overpowerment. The last patches changed that.
Yep. Used the warhammer too. I'm not saying either weapon OP generally - just that the pick is either under-priced or over-powered for its price.
1. Why are 3x heirlooms being being discussed? I frequently see Masterwork German Swords, Deadly awlpikes, Masterwork becs etc... the same longtime favorites people have always used. Post-patch I have not ONCE seen another heirloomed pick on the field but mine. Not ONCE. If it were OP you'd see more.
There's a very easy counter to pick users:
ANY crushthrough weapon wielded by someone with the PS to crushthrough regularly AND a sense of timing.
That's the main reason I switched from using my steel pick to a side sword. When someone has an overhead chambered with a great maul, you have to rely on footwork to stay alive with a pick. You can't outrange the maul and when the guy has proper timing, he will always hit you before you can strike him.
Once he missed his first attack, he's in trouble though.
With a side sword, you have this nifty thrust attack. It's really helpfull to kill people with overheads chambered. It's also faster than a steel pick, about 50% longer and deals just 1 damage less (even though it's cut damage, doesn't matter that much with the generally lower armourvalues).
Again... is there only a feeling "overpowered" or can someone proof it with numbers? Is there really a problem?
It's ok if you dont like it cause you were killed by it... but that is not enough to demand a nerf.
Weapon stats have been posted multiple times. Look at it compared to a morningstar.Yep, but imho that's not the point. You have two level of balancing.
I used to run round with mail, war hammerand a shield with the SINGLE purpose of taking out tincansThis.
It worked amazingly well
I don't find range to be an issue with the warhammer, and therefore other short 1h weapons
If the enemy back pedals, find a new enenmy
If he breaks your shield, learn to manual block
If he out reaches you, press him
There's a solution to all the anti-nerf the picks
I think it needs a nerf tbh. Not much, maybe a little less length or speed
Speed because if you're holding a weapon such as a pick, you HAVE to hold it in a certain way to make sure the tip hits them
This would mean a constant grip readjust before each strike. So take 1 speed off
And swords don't need grip adjusts? I didn't know you can slice through flesh with the flat side of a blade...Not even close to comparable.
Yep, everything below 70 reach is very hard to fight with. If you don't believe it, pick up a warhammer on the battlefield. 5 more length really makes a lot of difference in this range.I use a warhammer. I initially realized an incongruity in the steel pick when I compared it to the warhammer.
We have to compare the steel pick with other 1h weapons. So the question is... are there more significant kills with the steel pick than with other 1h weapons. And I say no.You're wrong. Compare stats between it an the warhammer. Anecdotal evidence of many kills is weak evidence when it comes to balancing. It's easy to find a lot of kills if you just swoop in for killshots or go after less skilled players.
Anecdotal evidence of many kills is weak evidence when it comes to balancing. It's easy to find a lot of kills if you just swoop in for killshots or go after less skilled players.Do you think its weapon dependend whether player are trying to find easy kills? Killing player is the goal... imho there is no better measuring stick.
If the enemy back pedals, find a new enenmy
If he out reaches you, press him
Warhammers do the most against armour but don't do x3 against the head, which is the main target for most 1h strikes.3x against head? I did not know that.... very interesting. Only pierce against head or are there more special damage type against hit region combinations?
Peirce does get x3 to the head, its why head shots are so fatal with any kind of ranged wep.Nobel Crassius... let's test it on a duel server. My pierce-test char is ready. Ok?
Pics or it didn't happen. And tell the circumstances don't just come in here saying nope i tested it.http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1814.msg30888.html#msg30888
However you cannot bring the head shot bonus into a balancing argument, unless your arguing for pierce in general to be nerfed. After all they all receive this bonus..
Disagree. It's the same animation regardless of weapon length, so it doesn't need to be discussed. The left-to-right swing isn't a close-range "tactic", it's just one of the three attacks the pick has!
Anyway. Pick does good damage, short size balances it. Don't see a problem.
It is a tactic. Striking simply from left to right will not hit the head, nor is it surprising.
However, moving towards your opponent's right side and hugging them while doing the left to right strike is faster, harder to see, and very likely a headshot.
This entire effect is also augmented by the weapon's length, which places the strongest striking position right at head height. This is what I meant by left-to-right tactic for short weapons.
Pick does more base damage than the warhammer, has a unique shape (though it's importance is now disputed), greater speed, and is harder to see (colour). It's also a fair shade cheaper than the warhammer.
The initial comparison I made with the steel pick was to the almost identical length 1h warhammer. I made this comparison because both weapons rely upon tactics common to most short one handed weapons. One of these primary tactics is the left-to-right swing which, besides being fast and sometimes difficult to see, is principally aimed at the head. I find that at least 25% of my normal encounters with the warhammer end through these shots at my opponent's head. Since this tactic is so fundamental to short one-handed weapons any potential variability is something worth considering when it comes to weapon balance.Warhammer has 25%(I can make up percentages too!) knockdown so it evens out.
I tried to verify the 2x/3x head damage.Yes pics of the red bar would be nice =/. However your peasants damage would be negligible. It would be hard to notice a difference between 1/16th of my life gone and say 1/14th :) if you have a high level character (and a nice helm) I will gladly hit you in the head a couple of times. I have a warhammer and a steel pick although slightly different damage values it should be close enough to see if there is a greater difference.
I made a new char (test with lvl3, 6str, no ps) and equipped him with a spiked club with 20p and a hammer with 21b.
Then I joined a duel server and tested the headdamage against an unarmored head.
The damage was nearly the same... so I cannot confirm the 3x pierce damage against head.
If somebody wants to make more or different tests please let me know.
I do however agree with you that perhaps it is better/equal to the warhammer due to whatever (I base this on the amount of Picks I see to the amount of warhammers I see) So either drop warhammer price or raise the picks up a tadThis sort of change was what I was going for. I never claimed the pick was exceptionally OP or anything, just that its stats seemed incongruous amongst comparable 1-handers.
This is true. While it's rare to survive a headshot with any weapon, you won't survive one with a pick unless heavily armored.
And the warhammer has knockdown, which is a major feature, no? It also does blunt damage, which is better against armor than cut.
The pick is the 5th most expensive 1h; about as expensive as a Knightly Arming Sword. It's a pain to repair. I'm still not sure why you think the gold cost is off.
Picks, Axes and Maces need to be longer, slower and do a little more damage than their nimble sword counterparts. I see no reason for a warhammer to be faster than a sword.
Picks, Axes and Maces need to be longer, slower and do a little more damage than their nimble sword counterparts. I see no reason for a warhammer to be faster than a sword.
Why should a mace be longer than a sword? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever...
This sort of change was what I was going for. I never claimed the pick was exceptionally OP or anything, just that its stats seemed incongruous amongst comparable 1-handers.It's an incongruous weapon, really: it's the Native Rhodok pick, which seems to be based on a mountaineer's ice axe rather than any actual mediaeval weapon. Here's a photo of two actual picks from a museum in Poland
It's an incongruous weapon, really: it's the Native Rhodok pick, which seems to be based on a mountaineer's ice axe rather than any actual mediaeval weapon. Here's a photo of two actual picks from a museum in PolandThey aren't short; they were meant to be used on horseback so more weight, more length and less speed would be the realistic option.(click to show/hide)
War Picks very similar to that actually existed. As an infantry weapon they got more popular in the 1500's.In fact, I would go so far as to say that those actual picks existed, and that's why they're in a museum...
In fact, I would go so far as to say that those actual picks existed, and that's why they're in a museum...A bold claim.
It's an incongruous weapon, really: it's the Native Rhodok pick, which seems to be based on a mountaineer's ice axe rather than any actual mediaeval weapon. Here's a photo of two actual picks from a museum in PolandThey aren't short; they were meant to be used on horseback so more weight, more length and less speed would be the realistic option.(click to show/hide)
The picks in that pic *lol* are horribly unbalanced. All the weight is towards the swinging end, making it terribly heavy to swing more than once. Most likely the reason they were used from horseback, if you use that on foot, you can swing it 10 times before your arm is so tired it falls off.
The reason they were heavy was because they were meant to pierce steel. And then more weight towards a small area is better. Sadly this would allso mean that the weapon would end up beeing stuck in the poor reciver's armour. That would suck ingame.
The picks in that pic *lol* are horribly unbalanced. All the weight is towards the swinging end, making it terribly heavy to swing more than once. Most likely the reason they were used from horseback, if you use that on foot, you can swing it 10 times before your arm is so tired it falls off.
That said, I'd love a 90-ish length or so cavalry pick, give it 80 speed and unbalanced, I don't care :)I have an erection just thinking about it.
That said, I'd love a 90-ish length or so cavalry pick, give it 80 speed and unbalanced, I don't care :)Morningstar?
Can't use one without thinking I'm playing like Finn or Thulsa Foom, and vomiting. Despite the crushthrough removal.
i got no problem own finn with my 100 speed long eslavona.
so the issue is your style. not his weapon :), i still see shitload of noobs facehugging a clearly faster enemy with a faster weapon and try swing from right to left who is the most slow swing... = fail
He never said he had any problem fighting finn, he just said that even though they removed the crush through on the morning star he can't use it or else he feels like finn and starts projectile vomiting all over the place.
Niuweidao
4110
weight 1.5
requirement 6
spd rtng 101
weapon length 88
swing damage 33, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Steel Pick
6889
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
+ 10 cool points for reading comprehension and explanatory post to person who lacks reading comprehension!
I think the pick should lose some speed especially.this is why i posted its up there with the op items, 2 swings and he killz you in plate and he has a sheild =[
If you have seen Murrogh in the NA servers you know what I mean.
with overhead or left hand swing he usually gets headshots and those are 1hit kills on most people.
masterworked with 102 speed pretty hard to block
He's my brother btw so im not biased against him
39p is TRIPLE HEIRLOOMED. Gimme a break. To use the pick you completely give up range, it doesn't knockdown, it doesn't break shields, and it's MORE expensive than any axe and it's just under the warhammer. You accept all those things in exchange for pure damage. That's always been the case with picks. What more do you want?But it has speed and damage that is better than several two-handed/polearm weapons. Sure 2hers might have 40cut damage but that only ends up being more damage on very low armored people. Range doesn't mean much of anything, especially when you have a shield. Range really only becomes important when you're fighting more than one opponent at a time. This is why it doesn't mean anything if you have a shield, shielders have an easier time fighting when they're outnumbered than anyone else. I'm sure if there were a 2handed pick with 90 range 38p damage and 100 speed everyone would be complaining about that as well, and with good reason.
39 pierce does about as much damage as a 50 cut weapon or a 38 blunt weapon to people in 50 armor. So a masterwork steel pick does more damage than any polearm other than:
deadly long hafted spiked mace
deadly long bardiche
long maul
deadly bec de corbin
deadly great long axe
balanced great long bardiche
What's your point? To make a pick even remotely effective you need to combine it with 7 or 8 athletics. That's not a whole lot of PS.
Other than that, the ONLY thing you have to do to kill the guy with the pick is.... step back and swing the same time he swings. The damn thing is so rediculously short he will miss and get cleaved in half by your 7 PS deadly great long bardiche.
What's your point?
Walt, how does it do more damage than the bec, which is also pierce?
Engine mentioned not seeing polearms that do more damage than a masterwork steel pick. I made a list of the polearms that do more damage than a masterwork steel pick against some of the most common armors. I do not understand the confusion here :?
Engine mentioned not seeing polearms that do more damage than a masterwork steel pick. I made a list of the polearms that do more damage than a masterwork steel pick against some of the most common armors. I do not understand the confusion here :?
If the information in the itemized heirloom thread (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,965.msg12265.html#msg12265) is correct, the generation 3 steel pick does 39 pierce. The generation 0 bec de corbin does 36 pierce, the generation 1 bec de corbin does 38 pierce damage, and the generation 2 bec de corbin does 40 pierce damage. So, a deadly bec de corbin does more damage that the masterwork steel pick.
39p is TRIPLE HEIRLOOMED. Gimme a break. To use the pick you completely give up range, it doesn't knockdown, it doesn't break shields, and it's MORE expensive than any axe and it's 662 gold less than the warhammer. You accept all those things in exchange for pure damage, speed, and a better shape. That's always been the case with picks. What more do you want? Besides a slight cost increase or speed decrease.
The warhammer does 36b when triple heirloomed AND it has knockdown, nerf nerf!
1h should have lower damage than 2h/pole but slowly with the new weapons implemented the gap of 2h/pole damage and 1h is always getting thinner.
When steel pick has 33 pierce and bec 36, morningstar 38 only 3/5 difference.
When warhammer 31 blunt and spiked mace 34, bar mace 35 only 3/4 difference.
It doesn't have 101 speed so doesn't have to be nerfed :P
It will if I masterwork it. Which I might be able to one day. When I have the time.
No, Walt. I actually said I don't see any triple heirloomed polearms that do less damage than a triple-heirloomed steel pick. Unless we're talking about triple-heirloomed peasant forks. :)
Sorry, got confused and somehow got it in my head that the ones you listed did less than a MW steel pick. Actually, it's kind of funny that all of those you listed have either crushthrough, shieldbreak, or knockdown. :) Not relevant to the discussion but funny.
Except the bec.Right, except the Bec.
Back on topic I haven't seen many people running around with picks. I have not had the chance to play in a few days due to clan matters so I may be a little off. :?
I listed the minimum heirloom level required for the polearms to exceed the damage done by a masterwork steel pick to a player in 50 armor. Further heirlooming the polearms on that list will still leave them doing more damage than a masterwork steel pick. Polearms not on that list do less damage than a masterwork steel pick regardless of the number of times they are heirloomed. I can make a list of the 40 masterwork polearms and 27 masterwork two-handed weapons that do less damage than the masterwork steel pick if you would like.I think this quote by itself should end the discussion right here. We're talking about a one-handed weapon doing more damage than 40 MW polearms and 27 MW two-handed weapons. How the fuck does anyone think this makes sense? Dan and MoW have been going higher str builds than athletics recently and they still have no problems closing in on people. You don't NEED athletics to use this weapon effectively, just as you don't NEED athletics to use the Great Maul(the shortest range two-hander coming in at 68) effectively.
Actually, it's kind of funny that all of those you listed have either crushthrough, shieldbreak, or knockdown. :) Not relevant to the discussion but funny.The bec has stagger, which is just as burly as the three other things you mentioned and indeed, it is rather interesting.
I think this quote by itself should end the discussion right here. We're talking about a one-handed weapon doing more damage than 40 MW polearms and 27 MW two-handed weapons. How the fuck does anyone think this makes sense? Dan and MoW have been going higher str builds than athletics recently and they still have no problems closing in on people. You don't NEED athletics to use this weapon effectively, just as you don't NEED athletics to use the Great Maul(the shortest range two-hander coming in at 68) effectively.The bec has stagger, which is just as burly as the three other things you mentioned and indeed, it is rather interesting.
The comparison makes more sense when you compare the damage against the top 5 or 10 poles or 2hs.
Ty - the pick is the 5th most expensive 1h. It kind of makes sense that it'd do more damage than a Farmer's Scythe... :)I'm not a person that thinks you can balance something in crpg by simply giving it a high price. When people have 500K+ even if you allowed someone to use an AWP for 100K gold and 10K for bullets, it still wouldn't be remotely balanced. Making an item used less often does in no way affect its usefulness when actually equipped.
The comparison makes more sense when you compare the damage against the top 5 or 10 poles or 2hs.
I think I have screenshots of five guys who were using steel picks consistently and to great effect, and I know at least one of them wasn't using an heirloomed pick.
Fair enough, Ty. My point there was to show that yes, it does more damage than a lot of poles/2hs, but that a lot of those are only used while leveling. Who uses a pitchfork consistently, not as a joke? They're stepping stones.I wouldn't call 19 of the 37 Two-Handers stepping stones and there are 27 which do less damage than the pick on an opponent with merely 50 armor. I wouldn't call 22 of the 45 polearms stepping stones and there are 40(FOURTY) which do less damage than the pick on an opponent with merely 50 armor. If this doesn't put it into perspective with how much damage that weapon does I don't really know if there is any way to convince you. This seems pretty obvious to me, you're swinging it with one arm instead of two. You're swinging it from behind the comfort of your shield.
I totally agree - if something is broken, putting a high pricetag on it doesn't fix the problem. I just don't think the steel pick is OP, considering its drawbacks.
Oh yeah... I'd also ask people to take into consideration that of the three consistent pick users (that I know of) on NA, all three of us have heirloomed our picks... So, they will seem faster and more damaging than normal.
I like how the only reason for balance is "Does someone top the scoreboards with a certain weapon" mentality.
I like how the only reason for balance is "Does someone top the scoreboards with a certain weapon" mentality.
I already stated that I'm far more effective with a deadly steel pick than my deadly warhammer. I also gave many reasons for the pick being an exceptionally effective weapon for its price. Please don't try to derail this discussion just because you don't like what people have to say.
Tbh warhammer is superior to the steel pick
Can't use one without thinking I'm playing like Finn or Thulsa Foom, and vomiting. Despite the crushthrough removal.
i got no problem own finn with my 100 speed long eslavona.
We've had ten pages debating the merits of that statement. If you want to have any weight in here you need to back it up with more than 'tbh.'
I was messing around with the weapon damage calc last night, and noticed that blunt starts to equal and do more damage than pierce when attacking enemies at 45 armor and up. Is that right?