Steel Pick (continued discussion)

[Diomedes]

Lol by four huh? whered you get this number from? your ass? you make that thing any shorter/less damaging and every one will just go back to using the military pick. So basically what your arguing for is to take it out completely because that's what you'll end up doing.

I was talking about the masterwork pick specifically but the length change would likely apply to all cases.  I chose four because that would bring the pick's length to sixty, making it a full palm's breadth shorter than its sister the warhammer, thus evening out the odds a bit between the two weapons.  Right now the steel pick has speed, damage, its unique head, weight, requirement, and price over the warhammer while the warhammer has knockdown, blunt damage, stab, and 1 point of length.



To everyone:

Am I alone in thinking the steel pick has irregular stats?  Does this possible irregularity translate to an imbalance?


For reference:

Steel Pick   6889   
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce
   
Warhammer   7550   
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown

   

[Xant]

imba op, nerf.

[AdNecrias]

Nerf archers. They are clearly OP now that 2h and throwing have been nerfed.

[zagibu]

I think the pick is alright...it's damn short, ever tried using one?

[Rextard]

Pick is fine, it has 1 damage type and 3 attacks.

Warhammer has 3 blunt damage attacks, which according to the calculator (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm) do the most damage against armor. Warhammer also has 1 piercing attack, which is the only damage type for the pick.

[Diomedes]

Pick is fine, it has 1 damage type and 3 attacks.

Warhammer has 3 blunt damage attacks, which according to the calculator (http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm) do the most damage against armor. Warhammer also has 1 piercing attack, which is the only damage type for the pick.

Warhammers do the most against armour but don't do x3 against the head, which is the main target for most 1h strikes.  The pierce attack for the warhammer, though, is pretty bad.  The long wind up, short reach, and really obvious animation make it undesirable against most targets.  The blunt vs pierce damage distinction is not very important here because when dealing with differences between the moderate 31 and 33 attack points the calculated average difference against 60 armour comes to +1 for pierce damage over blunt.  The difference when dealing damage to the head, however, is much more substantial.

But in the pick's favour over the warhammer is speed, damage, heirloomed damage, price, and weapon shape (it can hit sooner than a regular 1h because of its unique head).

I think the pick is alright...it's damn short, ever tried using one?

Yep.  Used the warhammer too.  I'm not saying either weapon OP generally - just that the pick is either under-priced or over-powered for its price.

[Fasader]

will be slower next patch considering it got +4 range at no cost

[Kherr]

Ok... I have to admit that I use a masterwork steel pick. I play Louis le Mort and I remember kills of some of the participants of the discussion.
I cannot understand that there is always a speed discussion.
You have a problem? More agility.
You were killed? The weapon is too fast... lets nerf.

Louis has a boring 21/15 strength build. So I topped the damage, not the speed.

There are a lot of tactics against str builds with short weapons. You can...
...kick with your feet and use the stun
...go back while swinging your 2h (hey... use the length)
...use a long maul
...cav, throwing, archer
...use an axe. Shield will be destroyed in a few hits and 1h blocking is bad cause of stun.
...better timing with your 1h/2h
...whatever

You can do a lot. Some tactics will not work against agi builds with a pick, but the damage of the pick will be much lower... so no fear.

But atm most guys use an agility build. They circle around and always do a left2right swing. Not a lot of damage and hp. One hit and they are dead. Ok... there are agi guys out there who use much better tactics... but you have to use them.

Yes, you can nerf it. But I think the main problem will stay... wrong tactic against picker.
Also I dont think it is a big problem... how many player use a pick? Not a lot.
Also I hope the balance of the steel pick and the other weapons will be still ok then. So e.g. I really miss the thrust.

Btw... if I die one hit of a 2h the 21:3 k/d guys tell me "hey... i heirloomed it. what do you want? AND IT IS SKILL". And such guys fear a 64cm stick?

[Casimir]

From what ive found in game most pick users are Agi builds. The high speed rating coupled with the pierce damage makes it a good weapon for fave hugging people. Also peirce scales pretty good against armours so no more str than what ur equipment requires is really needed.

[Mouse]

wrong tactic

This pretty much sums up most (not all) complaints about balance in the current version of cRPG. People use the wrong tactics and then cry when they lose.

[Xant]

There are a lot of tactics against str builds with short weapons. You can...
...kick with your feet and use the stun
...go back while swinging your 2h (hey... use the length)
...use a long maul
...cav, throwing, archer
...use an axe. Shield will be destroyed in a few hits and 1h blocking is bad cause of stun.
...better timing with your 1h/2h
...whatever

Kicking is hardly something that's reliable for the vast majority of players and missing one usually means death.

Use the length you say? How? You can sneak in a hit now and then if you've got a lot of agi by backpedalling but that's about it.

You have to use a specific weapon to counter it? And long maul counters everything else just as much.

Cav, throwing, archer? Forgot about the shield?

OK, your shield is destroyed. Now you have to actually... gasp.. manual block! And you still have the advantage.

So, "Play better?" Well d'uh. A level 1 peasant can kill a level 31 player if the peasant plays better. Doesn't mean it's balanced.

[Kherr]

Kicking is hardly something that's reliable for the vast majority of players and missing one usually means death.

Use the length you say? How? You can sneak in a hit now and then if you've got a lot of agi by backpedalling but that's about it.

You have to use a specific weapon to counter it? And long maul counters everything else just as much.

Cav, throwing, archer? Forgot about the shield?

OK, your shield is destroyed. Now you have to actually... gasp.. manual block! And you still have the advantage.

So, "Play better?" Well d'uh. A level 1 peasant can kill a level 31 player if the peasant plays better. Doesn't mean it's balanced.

Xant... cmon... you are a very good player. We could discuss some of your comments... so e.g. 1h blocking is different than 2h blocking... it is not the same because of the stun.

But whats the big picture? At least for me I can say I die often enough... cause the opponent has better tactic or I make a mistake. e.g. I know 2h player against them I loose almost every time.

And yes... sometimes you need a specific build or weapon against a specific opponent. But thats normal. I build a thrower - Francine - explicitely against 2h spammer and cav. And it works quite well.
A 1h cannot do anything against lance cav. A 2h str nothing against archer. and so on.

So we have to work as a team in a battle. Every build has its strength and its weakeness. But imho the most player want to be a hero with every build... win against all types of enemies. That does not work.

[Xant]

Xant... cmon... you are a very good player. We could discuss some of your comments... so e.g. 1h blocking is different than 2h blocking... it is not the same because of the stun.

But whats the big picture? At least for me I can say I die often enough... cause the opponent has better tactic or I make a mistake. e.g. I know 2h player against them I loose almost every time.

And yes... sometimes you need a specific build or weapon against a specific opponent. But thats normal. I build a thrower - Francine - explicitely against 2h spammer and cav. And it works quite well.
A 1h cannot do anything against lance cav. A 2h str nothing against archer. and so on.

So we have to work as a team in a battle. Every build has its strength and its weakeness. But imho the most player want to be a hero with every build... win against all types of enemies. That does not work.

Point is, the counters you list have nothing to do with the weapon, except perhaps the length. The comparison should be made to other 1h weapons - or 2h, considering it gets 39 pierce and 102 speed at gen3, which is much better than a gen3 german greatsword which is supposedly the 2h pierce weapon.

[Kherr]

Point is, the counters you list have nothing to do with the weapon, except perhaps the length. The comparison should be made to other 1h weapons - or 2h, considering it gets 39 pierce and 102 speed at gen3, which is much better than a gen3 german greatsword which is supposedly the 2h pierce weapon.

Ok... lets compare it with other 1h weapons. How? 10cm length are worth 1 speed point?

Suggestion... we use statistic. Let us see which 1h weapon is used how often and how many kills are done with it.
According to my experience a weapon or a weapon type which is clearly overpowered will be used by a lot of people and cause a lot of kills. If there are no significant more kills than with other 1h weapons there is no overpowerment.

[UrLukur]

Ok... lets compare it with other 1h weapons. How? 10cm length are worth 1 speed point?

Suggestion... we use statistic. Let us see which 1h weapon is used how often and how many kills are done with it.
According to my experience a weapon or a weapon type which is clearly overpowered will be used by a lot of people and cause a lot of kills. If there are no significant more kills than with other 1h weapons there is no overpowerment.

First, we should have to calculate median of k/d ratio among lvl 30. players who use pick over other 1h weapons. Then we would have to worry about sample size.