Steel Pick (continued discussion)

[zagibu]

Don't forget that most blunt weapons also have knockdown, which is a nice addition. I say if the pierce damage is not more than 10% higher, go blunt.

[Kherr]

I tried to verify the 2x/3x head damage.
I made a new char (test with lvl3, 6str, no ps) and equipped him with a spiked club with 20p and a hammer with 21b.

Then I joined a duel server and tested the headdamage against an unarmored head.
The damage was nearly the same... so I cannot confirm the 3x pierce damage against head.

If somebody wants to make more or different tests please let me know.

[zagibu]

Hmm, that's interesting. Maybe it was only a rumor? I've searched the taleworlds forum and also couldn't find a direct statement to support the x3 pierce dmg to head claim.

[Noble Crassius]

Peirce does get x3 to the head, its why head shots are so fatal with any kind of ranged wep. It's why when archers got switched to cut you could feasibly survive a head shot since cut i believe gets x2 to the head.

However you cannot bring the head shot bonus into a balancing argument, unless your arguing for pierce in general to be nerfed. After all they all receive this bonus..

[Kherr]

Peirce does get x3 to the head, its why head shots are so fatal with any kind of ranged wep.

Nobel Crassius... let's test it on a duel server. My pierce-test char is ready. Ok?

[Vexus]

I can 1 shot with morningstar overhead but a maul needs 2.

[Kherr]

Sorry guys... I tested it again on the duel server. I wanted to know more about the overhead.

Pierce 3x, blunt 2x head damage is not true. I tried overhead and head-side-swings... both deals the same damage.

We can do tests on the duel server if you want to see it with your own eyes. But please dont tell me always pierce 3x without proof.
If I made a mistake with my tests you can show me that I am wrong.

[Noble Crassius]

Pics or it didn't happen. And tell the circumstances don't just come in here saying nope i tested it.

It's common knowledge passed on by the elders what you speak is heresy! On the real tho maybe it's not exactly x3 maybe it is whos to say? All I know is a pierce blow to my head is usually fatal, while a slash or blunt head trauma hurts a whole lot but is usually survivable.

[Kherr]

Pics or it didn't happen. And tell the circumstances don't just come in here saying nope i tested it.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1814.msg30888.html#msg30888
Sorry, what do you expect? A screenshot of a red bar?
I invited you to test it with me.

Cmon... peace... i am interested in the mechanics of the game and I dont want to argue with other player. I tried to verify and I could not confirm it.
Let us test it on a duel server and you can see it. If another player is interested... you are welcome.

[Diomedes]

However you cannot bring the head shot bonus into a balancing argument, unless your arguing for pierce in general to be nerfed. After all they all receive this bonus..

The initial comparison I made with the steel pick was to the almost identical length 1h warhammer.  I made this comparison because both weapons rely upon tactics common to most short one handed weapons.  One of these primary tactics is the left-to-right swing which, besides being fast and sometimes difficult to see, is principally aimed at the head.  I find that at least 25% of my normal encounters with the warhammer end through these shots at my opponent's head.  Since this tactic is so fundamental to short one-handed weapons any potential variability is something worth considering when it comes to weapon balance.

[Engine]

Disagree. It's the same animation regardless of weapon length, so it doesn't need to be discussed. The left-to-right swing isn't a close-range "tactic", it's just one of the three attacks the pick has!

Also, I believe you're off in your first post about the "shape" of the weapon doing anything at all. AFAIK, the models may be curved, but the code views them as straight weapons and merely takes length into account... A good example is Balbaroth's scimitar, and how talented he was at utilizing this "ghost" straight hitbox while the blade ingame didn't actually touch your model.

Anyway. Pick does good damage, short size balances it. Don't see a problem.

[Diomedes]

Disagree. It's the same animation regardless of weapon length, so it doesn't need to be discussed. The left-to-right swing isn't a close-range "tactic", it's just one of the three attacks the pick has!

It is a tactic.  Striking simply from left to right will not hit the head, nor is it surprising.  However, moving towards your opponent's right side and hugging them while doing the left to right strike is faster, harder to see, and very likely a headshot.  This entire effect is also augmented by the weapon's length, which places the strongest striking position right at head height.  This is what I meant by left-to-right tactic for short weapons.

Anyway. Pick does good damage, short size balances it. Don't see a problem.

Pick does more base damage than the warhammer, has a unique shape (though it's importance is now disputed), greater speed, and is harder to see (colour).  It's also a fair shade cheaper than the warhammer.

[Engine]

It is a tactic.  Striking simply from left to right will not hit the head, nor is it surprising.

No? Seems to happen quote frequently with swords, in my experience. Both the giving and receiving of headshots. It's got to do with the angle of the slash, as opposed to the plain level right swing.

However, moving towards your opponent's right side and hugging them while doing the left to right strike is faster, harder to see, and very likely a headshot.

Sure, but the same is true for all 1-handers.

This entire effect is also augmented by the weapon's length, which places the strongest striking position right at head height.  This is what I meant by left-to-right tactic for short weapons.

This is true. While it's rare to survive a headshot with any weapon, you won't survive one with a pick unless heavily armored.

Pick does more base damage than the warhammer, has a unique shape (though it's importance is now disputed), greater speed, and is harder to see (colour).  It's also a fair shade cheaper than the warhammer.

And the warhammer has knockdown, which is a major feature, no? It also does blunt damage, which is better against armor than cut.

The pick is the 5th most expensive 1h; about as expensive as a Knightly Arming Sword. It's a pain to repair. I'm still not sure why you think the gold cost is off.

[Engine]

One more semi-ontopic thing: I'm tempted to go back to the old pick because the shortened reach of the new one is really brutal, but unfortunately the Military Pick is now obsolete.

[Noble Crassius]

The initial comparison I made with the steel pick was to the almost identical length 1h warhammer.  I made this comparison because both weapons rely upon tactics common to most short one handed weapons.  One of these primary tactics is the left-to-right swing which, besides being fast and sometimes difficult to see, is principally aimed at the head.  I find that at least 25% of my normal encounters with the warhammer end through these shots at my opponent's head.  Since this tactic is so fundamental to short one-handed weapons any potential variability is something worth considering when it comes to weapon balance.

Warhammer has 25%(I can make up percentages too!) knockdown so it evens out.

I do however agree with you that perhaps it is better/equal to the warhammer due to whatever (I base this on the amount of Picks I see to the amount of warhammers I see) So either drop warhammer price or raise the picks up a tad, either way nothing will really change.