cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: RagnarLodbroke on August 09, 2011, 10:55:50 pm

Title: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 09, 2011, 10:55:50 pm
IM sick of getting 1 hitted by Xbows!
When are the rest of u gonna realise that Xbows are Op!?
I've been gone for 1 week now, mostly because im raging like hell all the time i get 1 hitted by xbows! Tought i would be a little more calm now, but as soon as i join a server and "think" this is gonna be fun, been like 1 week since last time i played! And the first thing that happens is that i get 1 hitted by a freaking Xbows! so now im back to where i was 1 week ago, Mad as hell! Doesnt even matter from what range they are hitting u, they are also way too accurate!
Atm i got 161 wpf in archery and i find myself inaccurate...

My equipment: Kaftan, leather gloves, rus cavalry boots, felt cap!

when are u gonna nerf them!? Ill rather play pokemon than this shit atm!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 09, 2011, 10:58:53 pm
I agree, but people wont listen. They just lobby the shit out of themselves. Yet im a crossbowman too, so Im asking to nerf myself here.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: El_Infante on August 09, 2011, 10:59:54 pm
Another whine of the anti-xbow lobbie. If you think that xbow is easy mode, just try to play a dedicated xbowman and you will notice that things are not that they appear. In the time that you shoot an arbalest bolt, a longbowman archer shoot four times.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Vibe on August 09, 2011, 10:59:58 pm
Fasader = balance
Fasader = xbow
xbow = balanced
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Mtemtko on August 09, 2011, 11:03:23 pm
Erm I'd side with you but then I read "kaftan", duh sherlock...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 09, 2011, 11:03:57 pm
Another whine of the anti-xbow lobbie. If you think that xbow is easy mode, just try to play a dedicated xbowman and you will notice that things are not that they appear. In the time that you shoot an arbalest bolt, a longbowman archer shoot four times.

Dude, im a longbowman!! Next time i retire, ill try this dedicated xbowman build as u say!
And as i said in my frist post i got 161 wpf in archery and im inaccurate and slow...ofc i can shoot 4 arrows! BUT, im prolly gonna hit u with 1 of those arrows! Also u cna just run and hide behind a tree or something and then reload!
Erm I'd side with you but then I read "kaftan", duh sherlock...

If im using a heavier armor im just gonna be inaccurate as hell!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Thucydides on August 09, 2011, 11:04:11 pm
I get one shotted in Cuir Boili, HOW DO YOU THINK I FEEL?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 09, 2011, 11:06:05 pm
Meh. Crossbowmen are amazing and insanely deadly if in fortifications or some other cover while they hide, as then they can dictate the battle on their terms and dominate. However, if in a place with little or no cover they become useless pretty fast as the instant they try and reload, some archer (or 5) or a cav will suddenly try and take a love interest in them, either locking them down or killing them.

It honestly seems ok to me, dunno... I blame most "balance" issues on the maps we have.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 09, 2011, 11:07:05 pm
I get one shotted in Cuir Boili, HOW DO YOU THINK I FEEL?

Been there, done that! on my alt im using hte x2 cuir boili, im not getting 1 shotted in this one th!, but i've get 6 If, without the IF i would be dead...

edit: As it seems like its gonna take some time before ppl are gonna realise the are Op, what Pokemon game do u guys recommend?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fartface on August 09, 2011, 11:14:48 pm
i dont mind the lower tier xbows or horse xbows.
they need to shoot 3-4 times to shoot me while an archer does 3 to so.
but the arbalest especially loomed is just OP , it 1hits me most of the times i was wearing black armor i have 18 str and 6 if i got shot by an MW arbalest for 70% i spotted him and chased him. he was alot faster got to reconable distance reloaded and shot me again, im an good dodger but he just aimed for like 70 sec and after that shot me and killed me omg
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: gazda on August 09, 2011, 11:17:32 pm
since fasader and half of the other dev team is on xbow buids , dont expect its gonna get nerfed
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Mtemtko on August 09, 2011, 11:22:01 pm
I've got light kuyak and 3+ wisbys, 2IF and 15str, at medium/long range I never get oneshot, by never I mean NEVER, at point blank its either oneshot or 0-10% hp left, yeah you are simply forgetting the distance and also, with 145+ wpf in archery you can be more than sufficently accurate with -9.9 weight armor, also onehittin players in black armor is either extreme bad luck+speedbonus or plain bullshit, in plate you end up with 25-45% hp pretty much at every distance.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 06:05:37 am
I've got light kuyak and 3+ wisbys, 2IF and 15str, at medium/long range I never get oneshot, by never I mean NEVER, at point blank its either oneshot or 0-10% hp left, yeah you are simply forgetting the distance and also, with 145+ wpf in archery you can be more than sufficently accurate with -9.9 weight armor, also onehittin players in black armor is either extreme bad luck+speedbonus or plain bullshit, in plate you end up with 25-45% hp pretty much at every distance.

Honesty.  So refreshing.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Cyclopsided on August 10, 2011, 06:19:29 am
Honesty.  So refreshing.
I survived three +2 arbalest shots yesterday because I put plate on. Proceeded to keep killing people.
The guy was freaking out and so mad in chat.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 10, 2011, 09:43:13 am
So we have an archer (most likely without IF) complaining about getting killed in 1 hit from an arbalest while wearing a kaftan.

When are you going to make a thread about GLA's, Flamberge's and the like 1 hitting you? Probably never, because you can usually outrun them or shoot them before they get to you.

There's an extensive thread about xbows in comparison to bows, I suggest you read the comments from the devs there.

Oh and whenever I hit even a naked archer over long distance with +3 arbalest and +3 steel bolts, he would not die in 1 hit.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 10, 2011, 10:04:39 am
well, maybe the damage they do is a little on the extreme side. Or perhaps the arbalest has a bit too much range. It's not as terrible as some people make it out to be though.
any modification to the xbows should be on a small scale.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: gazda on August 10, 2011, 10:25:49 am
it would be nice if they atleast get a cut damage , since they deal huge amount of damage and have pinpoint accuracy.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Teeth on August 10, 2011, 10:39:23 am
Everything oneshots me, deal with it, life's a bitch.  8-)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 10, 2011, 10:41:07 am
it would be nice if they atleast get a cut damage , since they deal huge amount of damage and have pinpoint accuracy.

Cut damage... Right. Do you have any idea how severe that nerf is?
It would need a considerable buff somewhere else and the only way to do that would be making the crossbow reloading much faster. And then it turns into a different version of a bow.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 10:52:17 am
I still stand by my argument. All the lobbyists sons of *peep* can go to hell as far as I care. Im a xbowman myself and I am not afraid of change; the current situation is fucked up.

My opinion:
More reloading speed across the board
Less Damage acoss the board

A hybrid between the insanely fast reloads and the insanely slow reloads of c-rpg would be best.

Sadly, this is never gonna happen. I've seen the devs touch a lot of classes, changing the way they work. But since I joined c-rpg before the 2nd wipe, they were left untouched, buffed even. There is no class which had this privilege before.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 10, 2011, 10:58:06 am
I still stand by my argument. All the lobbyists sons of *peep* can go to hell as far as I care. Im a xbowman myself and I am not afraid of change; the current situation is fucked up.

My opinion:
More reloading speed across the board
Less Damage acoss the board

A hybrid between the insanely fast reloads and the insanely slow reloads of c-rpg would be best.

Sadly, this is never gonna happen. I've seen the devs touch a lot of classes, changing the way they work. But since I joined c-rpg before the 2nd wipe, they were left untouched, buffed even. There is no class which had this privilege before.

Heirlooms got nerfed, no more speedincrease. Heavy xbow and arbalest take 2 slots. High cost due to upkeep. They were slowed down at some point a long time ago.
And best of all: They get nerfed in both boltspeed (trajectory) and damage when it rains. -25% damage and boltspeed is a pretty big thing to deal with. Bows only get -10% afaik.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fasader on August 10, 2011, 11:46:23 am
Fasader = balance
Fasader = xbow
xbow = balanced

finally someone who understands.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Berserkadin on August 10, 2011, 11:49:59 am
Well MW arbalest with +3 Steel bolts do more base damage then the good ol throwing lances pre-nerf ;)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 10, 2011, 12:02:58 pm
Well MW arbalest with +3 Steel bolts do more base damage then the good ol throwing lances pre-nerf ;)

but with a lower rate of fire yes?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: gazda on August 10, 2011, 12:20:11 pm
but with a lower rate of fire yes?

uhh yeah and without skill needed (by skill i mean both atribute skill, and real life skill)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 12:25:26 pm
Heirlooms got nerfed, no more speedincrease. Heavy xbow and arbalest take 2 slots. High cost due to upkeep.
All classes got that, heirloom nerf on xbows wasn't as severe as it was on some, you are just calling out stuff that was changed in general, we are talking about the crossbow class atm.
They were slowed down at some point a long time ago.
And best of all: They get nerfed in both boltspeed (trajectory) and damage when it rains. -25% damage and boltspeed is a pretty big thing to deal with. Bows only get -10% afaik.
Old, old and old. These things were around for a very long time.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fasader on August 10, 2011, 12:37:30 pm
Well MW arbalest with +3 Steel bolts do more base damage then the good ol throwing lances pre-nerf ;)
nope.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 10, 2011, 12:42:35 pm
All classes got that, heirloom nerf on xbows wasn't as severe as it was on some, you are just calling out stuff that was changed in general, we are talking about the crossbow class atm.

Every weapon get's a speedincrease from heirlooming, as did the arbalest. Now the arbalest get's NO speedincrease from heirlooming, while all other weapons including bows still do. Not so general. Was changed with patch 0.232 or the lastest one.

Old, old and old. These things were around for a very long time.

Sadly, this is never gonna happen. I've seen the devs touch a lot of classes, changing the way they work. But since I joined c-rpg before the 2nd wipe, they were left untouched, buffed even. There is no class which had this privilege before.

I brought it up since you said you never saw changes since the 2nd c-rpg wipe. Since I've been playing for over a year and never witnessed a wipe it seemed relevant to your claim.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Cup1d on August 10, 2011, 12:59:15 pm
Legend about high cost

Comfortable equip for xbowman

Arbalest - 18796
Steel Bolts - 2563
mace - 2925

Kettle Helmet - 2107
Kuyak (light) - 6765
Leather Gloves - 289
Mail Chausses - 1290

34735


Comfortable equip for archer

Hornbow - 7896
Bodkins - 5058
Bodkins - 5058
Langes Messer - 7517

Lamellar vest - 3342
Mail Gauntlets - 3427
Mail Chausses - 1290
Cheap head armor - 150

33738

Same cost. Yes? NO!
You forgot about double chance to repair for arrows.
Let's recount

Comfortable equip for archer

Hornbow - 7896
Bodkins - 5058
Bodkins - 5058
Bodkins - 5058
Bodkins - 5058
Langes Messer - 7517

Lamellar vest - 3342
Mail Gauntlets - 3427
Mail Chausses - 1290
Cheap head armor - 150

43854

Stop complain about high cost of crossbowman equipment. With 35000 overall cost of your equip you'll accumulate about 80-120k for generation.


Wookimonsta
Quote
Well MW arbalest with +3 Steel bolts do more base damage then the good ol throwing lances pre-nerf ;)
but with a lower rate of fire yes?

Wooki...
show me throwing lance that can hit me from other side of map
show me any thrower with 26 throwing lances at once
show me any lance-thrower with 27 agility and 9 athletics
show me throwing lance with 60 projectile speed
show me throwing lance with Penetrate Shield ability

 
Spawny
Quote
Every weapon get's a speedincrease from heirlooming, as did the arbalest. Now the arbalest get's NO speedincrease from heirlooming, while all other weapons including bows still do. Not so general. Was changed with patch 0.232 or the lastest one.

Wrong.
My MW Longbow has same 50 weapon speed as standart Longbow. Ask any archer about bow heirloom before posting.


Balance team - there are many non-broken things left in game. Work harder.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Mtemtko on August 10, 2011, 01:13:43 pm
What about focusing on nerfing players that use xbows with 1wpf?

Black soldiers= Fasader and his item balancing crew
Ape= Random player with 1wpf in xbows
AK-47= Arbalest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnqH4E0VXGE&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Teeth on August 10, 2011, 02:10:31 pm
What about focusing on nerfing players that use xbows with 1wpf?

Black soldiers= Fasader and his item balancing crew
Ape= Random player with 1wpf in xbows
AK-47= Arbalest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnqH4E0VXGE&feature=player_embedded
Most interesting
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Shinobi on August 10, 2011, 02:11:16 pm
What about focusing on nerfing players that use xbows with 1wpf?

Black soldiers= Fasader and his item balancing crew
Ape= Random player with 1wpf in xbows
AK-47= Arbalest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnqH4E0VXGE&feature=player_embedded

lol very nice video Mtemtko, thanks for sharing the link. And yes, I support nerfing 1wpf Arbalest users too. Balance archived with upkeep alone never works that well.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 10, 2011, 02:38:26 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnqH4E0VXGE&feature=player_embedded

that, is the single greatest video i have ever seen
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 03:33:46 pm
So we have an archer (most likely without IF) complaining about getting killed in 1 hit from an arbalest while wearing a kaftan.

When are you going to make a thread about GLA's, Flamberge's and the like 1 hitting you? Probably never, because you can usually outrun them or shoot them before they get to you.

There's an extensive thread about xbows in comparison to bows, I suggest you read the comments from the devs there.

Oh and whenever I hit even a naked archer over long distance with +3 arbalest and +3 steel bolts, he would not die in 1 hit.

HOW THE HELL DO U EXPECT A ARCHER TO PUT POINTS IN IF? jesus christ....ur just making me more mad!
Also when u hit a naked archer he got no chance to survive from a x3 arbalest and x3 steel bolts, range doesnt matter! Pure Bullshit man....Not even a naked guy with 10 If would survive that, or he might, if he is god...

To another note..a flamberge needs to hit to kill me! Depends where he hits me, if he hits me in the head im dead! But if its a bodyhit i might survive. It also depends on the flamberge guy's build! If he is a str build with 10 ps ofc im dead! Also Spawny i know how to block... so with a slow flamberge i got np to move backwards and block!

Anyway back to topic! A archer need Powerdraw to use Bows...which means, u get 6 less skillpoints to use! And i prefer a 18/21 build as a archer, which means i need to convert some of my skillpoints to attribute points!

Got no idea how to build a xbowman, but im gonna try 18/18, and i think its gonna be a Ok build!
U also get 12 more skillpoints to spend....
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 04:57:08 pm
I still stand by my argument. All the lobbyists sons of *peep* can go to hell as far as I care. Im a xbowman myself and I am not afraid of change; the current situation is fucked up.

My opinion:
More reloading speed across the board
Less Damage acoss the board

A hybrid between the insanely fast reloads and the insanely slow reloads of c-rpg would be best.

So essentially just another bow for archery.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 05:01:38 pm
So essentially just another bow for archery.
You don't understand what I'm saying than.

Every weapon get's a speedincrease from heirlooming, as did the arbalest. Now the arbalest get's NO speedincrease from heirlooming, while all other weapons including bows still do. Not so general. Was changed with patch 0.232 or the lastest one.

I brought it up since you said you never saw changes since the 2nd c-rpg wipe. Since I've been playing for over a year and never witnessed a wipe it seemed relevant to your claim.
Ranged weapons get a accuracy, shoot speed and damage increase. Melee weapons a speed increase of 1 point and a damage increase. Your point?

There were 2 wipes, one before I joined and one after I joined. After the second one chadz swore to never wipe characters and gold anymore. I must've been playing longer than you than.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: LordRichrich on August 10, 2011, 05:03:41 pm
HOW THE HELL DO U EXPECT A ARCHER TO PUT POINTS IN IF? jesus christ....ur just making me more mad!
Also when u hit a naked archer he got no chance to survive from a x3 arbalest and x3 steel bolts, range doesnt matter! Pure Bullshit man....Not even a naked guy with 10 If would survive that, or he might, if he is god...

Uh, most xbow men don't have x3 bolts and x3 xbow. I don't have any looms. So stop complaaining about loom modifiers, it's a whole different bucket of fish

And go 15 str and put the rest in agi
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 05:12:59 pm
HOW THE HELL DO U EXPECT A ARCHER TO PUT POINTS IN IF? jesus christ....ur just making me more mad!

You click the little button as you're building your character so that it adds points to IF.  My archer put points in IF just fine.



Strength

15/21

Archery 150 wpf
2her 80 wpf

Iron Flesh 5

Power strike 5

Athletics 7

Power Draw 5

Weapon Master 7


Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 05:14:03 pm
Uh, most xbow men don't have x3 bolts and x3 xbow. I don't have any looms. So stop complaaining about loom modifiers, it's a whole different bucket of fish

And go 15 str and put the rest in agi

well thanks for ur tip! But the old players who's been here for over 1 year they have got a x3 xbow and x3 bolts...Or they can just buy a loom on the marketplace!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 05:15:41 pm
You click the little button as you're building your character so that it adds points to IF.  My archer put points in IF just fine.



Strength

15/21

Archery 150 wpf
2her 80 wpf

Iron Flesh 5

Power strike 5

Athletics 7

Power Draw 5

Weapon Master 7

i prefer a 18/21 build....i got a the MW Longbow so i need atleast 6 pd!
Think i said that in my other post, Again....jesus christ!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 10, 2011, 05:18:32 pm
i prefer a 18/21 build....i got a the MW Longbow so i need atleast 6 pd!
Think i said that in my other post, Again....jesus christ!

Right, which means lack of IF is a failure on your part because of your own choices about your build.  Was simply saying that it's indeed quite possible and practical for archers to have IF.  Hell making an archer is like making a shielder.  Only instead of those points going into shield, they go into power draw.  /shrug.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 05:30:44 pm
Right, which means lack of IF is a failure on your part because of your own choices about your build.  Was simply saying that it's indeed quite possible and practical for archers to have IF.  Hell making an archer is like making a shielder.  Only instead of those points going into shield, they go into power draw.  /shrug.
No it isn't lol, going for IF as an archer is the most idiotic thing you can do. Powerdraw, athletics and weaponmaster above everything.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 05:34:34 pm
No it isn't lol, going for IF as an archer is the most idiotic thing you can do. Powerdraw, athletics and weaponmaster above everything.

THIS
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 10, 2011, 07:23:03 pm
Would someone explain to me why, when a weapon is so overpowered, it still only accounts for 5% of kills?  Crossbowmen are fine because they are situational, their performance is reliant on map, gametype and the rest of their team. 

Archers do need a buff however.  Their range should be longer and their deceleration slower.  The proficiency hit to armour should be lowered so that mail is viable.  Their accuracy should also be increased to equal that of a crossbow with equal proficiency.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Mtemtko on August 10, 2011, 07:30:30 pm
No it isn't lol, going for IF as an archer is the most idiotic thing you can do. Powerdraw, athletics and weaponmaster above everything.

Well.. its your  problem if you get oneshot when you have the choice to get IF or armor for sacrificing something, dont whine then.
With studded leather coat and lordly wisbys,15str,2IF I survive arbalest bolts with 10-30% hp left..

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 07:31:32 pm
Well.. its your  problem if you get oneshot when you have the choice to get IF or armor for sacrificing something, dont whine then.
Jesus christ, I was merely pointing out he was wrong. I wasn't whining about anything.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 10, 2011, 07:33:39 pm
Jesus christ, I was merely pointing out he was wrong. I wasn't whining about anything.

This is the internet, disagreeing is serious stuff yo!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 10, 2011, 07:38:45 pm
Magikarp is a keen proponent that crossbows should be closer to what they were in Native.  Lower damage, faster reload.  A thought for him.  Currently crossbows account for 5% of kills in cRPG.  If I were to acquire the statistics from a collection of Native servers, what do you think the % of crossbow kills would be?

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 07:54:51 pm
Magikarp is a keen proponent that crossbows should be closer to what they were in Native.  Lower damage, faster reload.  A thought for him.  Currently crossbows account for 5% of kills in cRPG.  If I were to acquire the statistics from a collection of Native servers, what do you think the % of crossbow kills would be?

(click to show/hide)

On Native everyone is playing as a ranged...No wonder there would be more kills from xbows -.-

Well.. its your  problem if you get oneshot when you have the choice to get IF or armor for sacrificing something, dont whine then.
With studded leather coat and lordly wisbys,15str,2IF I survive arbalest bolts with 10-30% hp left..

i would like to see this !
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 10, 2011, 07:59:17 pm
Your archer has 54 hp, where as the average longbowman with 21/18 build has 56 hp. Amusing. IF is not needed with str archers.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 10, 2011, 08:05:03 pm
On Native everyone is playing as a ranged...No wonder there would be more kills from xbows -.-

Your death, however annoying, was in a minority.  A 4.13% minority, followed by throwing (1.08%) and horsebump (1.08%).  For the sake of posterity, I will relent from posting 'get over it' in large captial letters.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Nihtgenga on August 10, 2011, 08:19:45 pm
I've got light kuyak and 3+ wisbys, 2IF and 15str, at medium/long range I never get oneshot, by never I mean NEVER, at point blank its either oneshot or 0-10% hp left, yeah you are simply forgetting the distance and also, with 145+ wpf in archery you can be more than sufficently accurate with -9.9 weight armor, also onehittin players in black armor is either extreme bad luck+speedbonus or plain bullshit, in plate you end up with 25-45% hp pretty much at every distance.

true.
I got 3+ bolts and 3+ arba and on long distance i dont even oneshoot low armored (low armoured is everything below lamellar) running AT me.

and again. on long and middle range, xbows have a huge disadvantage, kill wise, compared to bows. If I manage to hit someone, he doesnt die and before I reload he got cover. bowman on the other hand manage to land 2 or 3 shots in this time, beeing able to actually kill him (if skilled)
furthermore, bow men get the "learning" advantage. if they shoot and the shot misses, the have 2 or more new chances to actually hit the target and can adjust the new shots with the experience gained from the first shot.
xbowmen on the other hand mostly have "first" shots all the time and no learning advantage (in most cases, obviously not in all) and therefore a lot of "blind" shots

this finally gives xbow men save hits (and therefore the huge advantage compared to bowmen) only when the target is standing still on middle or close range or it is running straight at you.
on some battle rounds, I get to fire not even half of my bolts.

this again makes other xbow men, when they reloading my prime targets. furthermore only new/unskilled bowmen get killed by xbow men easily and dumb infantry running straight at me, even though they see me aiming at them
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 08:40:08 pm

this again makes other xbow men, when they reloading my prime targets. furthermore only new/unskilled bowmen get killed by xbow men easily and dumb infantry running straight at me, even though they see me aiming at them

I've been here for 1 year now as a archer does that mean im unskilled or dumb?

I remember prepatch when i pretty often managed to top the scoreboards....i wont call that unskilled!?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Nihtgenga on August 10, 2011, 08:42:45 pm
I've been here for 1 year now as a archer does that mean im unskilled or dumb?

I remember prepatch when i pretty often managed to top the scoreboards....i wont call that unskilled!?

sure you get killed by xbow from time to time as an skilled archer aswell, but not more than by other classes, which again makes xbow not OP in your case.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 10, 2011, 08:45:58 pm
sure you get killed by xbow from time to time as an skilled archer aswell, but not more than by other classes, which again makes xbow not OP in your case.

so, if the other classes get killed by xbows more often they are still not Op?

Forget this ill rather get drunk now...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Nihtgenga on August 10, 2011, 08:56:41 pm
so, if the other classes get killed by xbows more often they are still not Op?

hae?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 10, 2011, 09:46:55 pm
Magikarp is a keen proponent that crossbows should be closer to what they were in Native.  Lower damage, faster reload.  A thought for him.  Currently crossbows account for 5% of kills in cRPG.  If I were to acquire the statistics from a collection of Native servers, what do you think the % of crossbow kills would be?

(click to show/hide)
That's exactly my point. Seems you didn't read my posts did you?

I want crossbowman to be more consistent and less randomness being involved in their class.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 10, 2011, 10:43:32 pm
Would someone explain to me why, when a weapon is so overpowered, it still only accounts for 5% of kills?  Crossbowmen are fine because they are situational, their performance is reliant on map, gametype and the rest of their team. 

not that i don't agree, but that could be said for almost every class
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 11, 2011, 12:43:55 am
My opinion:
More reloading speed across the board
Less Damage acoss the board

And crossbow kills will drop from 5% to 2.5%.  That's a step in the right direction is it?  Throwers will out kill us, and horsebumping will not be far behind.  This beggars belief.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Adam_Bomb on August 11, 2011, 03:35:42 am
i dont mind the lower tier xbows or horse xbows.
they need to shoot 3-4 times to shoot me while an archer does 3 to so.
but the arbalest especially loomed is just OP , it 1hits me most of the times i was wearing black armor

Yeah...I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on this post.  I've never 1 hit someone in black armor with my MW Arb and MW steel bolts. NEVER.  Quit lying to try to make your point.

 
Quote
i have 18 str and 6 if i got shot by an MW arbalest for 70% i spotted him and chased him. he was alot faster got to reconable distance reloaded and shot me again, im an good dodger but he just aimed for like 70 sec and after that shot me and killed me omg

Well dummy, that death was entirely your fault, don't chase him next time...duh
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gurnisson on August 11, 2011, 05:35:04 am
Sick and tired of the 'omglol ONESHOTS!!1!!' crying. Play the class, and you'll find out that the one-shots are a lot rarer than you think.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Siiem on August 11, 2011, 06:43:50 am
Sick and tired of the 'omglol ONESHOTS!!1!!' crying. Play the class, and you'll find out that the one-shots are a lot rarer than you think.

This is true, 1 shots are actually not that common even with a MW arbalest, but it will still deal more damage in one hit then anyother attack except the couched lance. So people rage. But anyhow, imo the pikes/long spears are alot worse then the xbow. Atleast if you get shot by the xbow you have a chance. Getting stunlocked by a 300 length tootpick while his 1h/2h friend finish you off is alot more annoying.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 11, 2011, 08:22:31 am
Getting stunlocked by a 300 length tootpick while his 1h/2h friend finish you off is alot more annoying.

And once again we return to the realm of "NERF TEAMWORK!"   :lol:
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 11, 2011, 08:24:26 am
Honestly I have an easier time fighting a two handed maniac and a pike buddy then I do against a pair of two handed maniacs.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 11, 2011, 08:27:02 am
Honestly I have an easier time fighting a two handed maniac and a pike buddy then I do against a pair of two handed maniacs.

Same
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Siiem on August 11, 2011, 08:53:56 am
And once again we return to the realm of "NERF TEAMWORK!"   :lol:
Sorry, couldn't resist.

How is it teamwork when you get stunlocked... honestly, explain.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 11, 2011, 09:02:10 am
How is it teamwork when you get stunlocked... honestly, explain.

Two people work together to kill stunlock you.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gorath on August 11, 2011, 10:54:19 am
How is it teamwork when you get stunlocked... honestly, explain.

Well you see when you block the first 2h'd sword, and the 2nd one hits you causing the stun, the first one swings again hitting you (forcing another stun) and then the 2nd one swings again.  So on and so forth.  Replace 2h with 1h, arrow, bolt, polearm, pike, thrown weapon, horsebump at will.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Peasant_Woman on August 11, 2011, 11:00:28 am
If you get stunlocked you can try:

1. Avoid fighting two competant players at the same time.

2. Get friends who will watch your ass for you.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Siiem on August 11, 2011, 11:02:42 am
Replace 2h with 1h, arrow, bolt, polearm, pike, thrown weapon, horsebump at will.

I disagree, you have a chance vs those. If someone has longspear/pike you don't.

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 11, 2011, 11:33:53 am
Sick and tired of the 'omglol ONESHOTS!!1!!' crying. Play the class, and you'll find out that the one-shots are a lot rarer than you think.

Very this, used to throw massive ragefits about crossbows when I was 2h/pole/cav, but I'm currently playing my first Xbow gen with MW Arbalest and +2 Steel Bolts, and one shot kills are rare, there are even NAKED players that can survive a chest hit...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Siiem on August 11, 2011, 11:54:26 am
Very this, used to throw massive ragefits about crossbows when I was 2h/pole/cav, but I'm currently playing my first Xbow gen with MW Arbalest and +2 Steel Bolts, and one shot kills are rare, there are even NAKED players that can survive a chest hit...

Crossbow is raw damage output = it will do the same damage all the time I belive, so a naked person with high IF could ahve a higher chance of surviving compared to low IF medium high armour.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 01:39:29 pm
Sick and tired of the 'omglol ONESHOTS!!1!!' crying. Play the class, and you'll find out that the one-shots are a lot rarer than you think.

cant be that rare when i keeps happening to me!?
Also im not crying im just trying to point out that they have got to much dmg and they are way too accurate!
I remember the good old days when everyone whined about archery..(Threads was pretty much like this one) and they got nerfed all the fucking time...
As i said, im gonna play as a xbower pretty soon...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Jacko on August 11, 2011, 03:19:04 pm
Whiners gonna whine. Do what Gurnisson said if you're really interested in balance.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 11, 2011, 03:23:28 pm
Sick and tired of the 'omglol ONESHOTS!!1!!' crying. Play the class, and you'll find out that the one-shots are a lot rarer than you think.
And I'm sick and tired of the damned lobyists who like this randomness. Can't you see that my suggestion is actually a buff in terms of killing?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 03:30:37 pm
Whiners gonna whine. Do what Gurnisson said if you're really interested in balance.

Do i really have to quote myself? read the whole post before ur posting...
As i said, im gonna play as a xbower pretty soon...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: rustyspoon on August 11, 2011, 05:27:57 pm
And I'm sick and tired of the damned lobyists who like this randomness. Can't you see that my suggestion is actually a buff in terms of killing?

I'm with Magikarp. I'd rather skill be rewarded rather than luck. If heirlooms had a slight damage reduction but an increase with reload speed it would be better.

Oh, and get rid of that horrible, horrible delay on the arbelest firing.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 05:48:29 pm
I'm with Magikarp. I'd rather skill be rewarded rather than luck. If heirlooms had a slight damage reduction but an increase with reload speed it would be better.

Oh, and get rid of that horrible, horrible delay on the arbelest firing.
Im also with magikarp!
Also the delay on the arbalest have always been there no idea why tho
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 11, 2011, 05:51:19 pm
Your death, however annoying, was in a minority.  A 4.13% minority, closely followed by throwing (3.62%) and horsebump (1.08%).  For the sake of posterity, I will relent from posting 'get over it' in large captial letters.
You should try playing on Ru_crpg sometimes. That percentage is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different there. And, i imagine, eventually that will transfer to other servers as well.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 11, 2011, 05:56:24 pm
You should try playing on Ru_crpg sometimes. That percentage is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different there. And, i imagine, eventually that will transfer to other servers as well.

Not EU, does not count, otherwise the Bec Op/causes-too-many-deaths/overused arguement from NA has merit.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Razzen on August 11, 2011, 06:09:40 pm
Oh no help me, every 1-2 hours i might be killed by a xbowman, its so unfair, they reload so fast and does so much more dmg, they can just keep on backpeddling and shoot me like a archer can, they also got so much ammo and they obviously pay no upkeep.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 07:37:42 pm
Oh no help me, every 1-2 hours i might be killed by a xbowman, its so unfair, they reload so fast and does so much more dmg, they can just keep on backpeddling and shoot me like a archer can, they also got so much ammo and they obviously pay no upkeep.

sarcasm?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Shinobi on August 11, 2011, 08:18:50 pm
You should try playing on Ru_crpg sometimes. That percentage is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different there. And, i imagine, eventually that will transfer to other servers as well.

Hehe yeah I noticed that yesterday, its already starting to show on other servers as well. This is likely because bows have been hit so hard with the nurf hammer. Suddenly xbows are in focus like never before.

I started one instant lvl 30 myself and I must say they are very fun to use. Its taking away time to work on my main character who should be looming soon. ^^
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gurnisson on August 11, 2011, 08:46:24 pm
cant be that rare when i keeps happening to me!?
Also im not crying im just trying to point out that they have got to much dmg and they are way too accurate!
I remember the good old days when everyone whined about archery..(Threads was pretty much like this one) and they got nerfed all the fucking time...
As i said, im gonna play as a xbower pretty soon...

Since you have no IF and shitty armor? If arbalest shouldn't deal the damage to take you down in one-hit, it would have to receive a massive speed bost. You also want them to be less accuarate, as well as a lot less damaging? You have no idea what you're talking about unfortunately. :|

And I'm sick and tired of the damned lobyists who like this randomness. Can't you see that my suggestion is actually a buff in terms of killing?

My answer wasn't directed at you. I wouldn't mind your suggested change, but I don't find it necessary either.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 09:35:01 pm
Since you have no IF and shitty armor? If arbalest shouldn't deal the damage to take you down in one-hit, it would have to receive a massive speed bost. You also want them to be less accuarate, as well as a lot less damaging? You have no idea what you're talking about unfortunately. :|

My answer wasn't directed at you. I wouldn't mind your suggested change, but I don't find it necessary either.

really dont understand this, are u really THAT arrogant? Archers got nerfed all ways, accuray, dmg, missile speed and a new animation, why could they not do the same with the Xbows! Mw arbalest should have less dmg and Accuracy end of discussion! I really know the fuck im talking about...

What armor do u expect me to use when im a archer? Plate?
1 more thing, today i played with my alt in mail, mailmittens,  6 if, 18 str...i had like 10 % hp left, medium range and im not quite sure if it was a MW Arbalest or a normal one!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 11, 2011, 09:44:14 pm
A big part of the perceived problem would be solved if there was something done to prevent Xbows from being used as sidearm.

e.g. make them require at least xxx wpf, no need to gimp dedicated crossbowmen.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 11, 2011, 09:45:43 pm
A big part of the perceived problem would be solved if there was something done to prevent Xbows from being used as sidearm.

e.g. make them require at least xxx wpf, no need to gimp dedicated crossbowmen.

Thats a really good idea! But they are never gonna change it -.-
Thumbs up for u!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gurnisson on August 11, 2011, 10:11:52 pm
really dont understand this, are u really THAT arrogant? Archers got nerfed all ways, accuray, dmg, missile speed and a new animation, why could they not do the same with the Xbows! Mw arbalest should have less dmg and Accuracy end of discussion! I really know the fuck im talking about...

What armor do u expect me to use when im a archer? Plate?
1 more thing, today i played with my alt in mail, mailmittens,  6 if, 18 str...i had like 10 % hp left, medium range and im not quite sure if it was a MW Arbalest or a normal one!

Archers were massively overpowered back then, something crossbows weren't. Now they're both decent. I can do well both as an archer and as a crossbowman.

I mixed up the armors actually, so I'm sorry for that. Kaftan is decent archer armor, but with no IF, you can't expect to survive a shot from MW arbalest and MW steel bolts. Then again, if the crossbowman misses his shot, you'll have a massive adantage and should be able to take him down, if it ain't a lot of hiding places in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Hotpokka on August 12, 2011, 08:12:58 am
A big part of the perceived problem would be solved if there was something done to prevent Xbows from being used as sidearm.

e.g. make them require at least xxx wpf, no need to gimp dedicated crossbowmen.
Higher STR requirements, arbalest should be at least 21 STR
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 12, 2011, 11:48:57 am
Higher STR requirements, arbalest should be at least 21 STR
this might not actually be such a bad idea, depends on what most xbow users have for str now though.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 12, 2011, 11:51:38 am
this might not actually be such a bad idea, depends on what most xbow users have for str now though.

15 tops.

15/24 build is the cookie cutter for arbalest users. Leaves room for 5 PS, 8 athletics and 8 WM. Get 160 wpf in crossbows and the rest in 2h combined with a mace (good cost/performance ratio).
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2011, 11:54:07 am
Higher STR requirements, arbalest should be at least 21 STR
Best suggestion yet.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Erasmas on August 12, 2011, 12:08:04 pm
Guys, the arbalest now requires 2 slots, 15 str, is expensive like hell, slow like hell, can be damaged in-game (no other weapon can), has substantial lag while shooting, was nerfed several times, numbers of xbowman dropped rapidly, and you are still complaining?

It's strange that we have not seen a post like "Just remove crossobws and  bows from the game entirely, that would resolve the problem" yet...

edit... and to shoot it with reasonable accuracy you need to invest a lot WPF, as it is the xbow with the biggest crosshair anyway... you won't see xbowman with arabalest and 1h+shield anymore.
 

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Brutal on August 12, 2011, 12:24:37 pm
A high strength requirement is a good idea. Xbow is the only ranged that can have max accuracy and max damage at the same time 
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 12, 2011, 12:24:54 pm
Higher STR requirements, arbalest should be at least 21 STR

So 2h and polearms can continue using it as shotgun? No thanks.

wpf requirements are the only way to prevent it from being used that way.

edit: 'It' refers to crossbows in general, Arbalest is too big to be used as shotgun anyway.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Hotpokka on August 12, 2011, 12:25:48 pm
you won't see xbowman with arabalest and 1h+shield anymore.
Your signature definitely reflects this
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 12:40:16 pm
yea i would be too for higher str requirements
one in my clan has an full str build (33str 3agi)
and 11 if and he is getting too 1shoted in low ( light kuyak or something like that)
by arlebests so i would say the arlebest is op
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 12, 2011, 12:43:39 pm
What you leave out is the distance he's getting shot from... most of my shots with MW Arbalest and +2 Steel bolts aren't one shot kills, often even if I stand 5 meters in front of someone (not counting headshots).  :?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 12:45:53 pm
from an middle distance moustly on town maps
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Greziz on August 12, 2011, 12:49:04 pm
I can safely say I prefer a team of xbow men vs a team of longbow men. Long bowmen can scatter like roaches while firing. Xbow men can scatter and not fire. This is all based on whether or not the xbow men are skilled players because real good xbow men when you get close will assault you with their melee archers will just flee like the little skill less girls they are.

[I believe the longbow is the superior ranged weapon]

However I prefer Xbow men because they tend to have more testicular fortitude and man up to help their team in melee support when needed.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 12:55:05 pm
tss i prefer good longbow mans and 2handed guys with normal xbows before arbelest mans but just cause the only archer in our clan 2 shots every body and he is too an help in melee and the 2handed + xbow guys can 1 shot with normal xbows and are an better help in meele than an arlebest guy
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Leshma on August 12, 2011, 01:02:26 pm
Quote
this might not actually be such a bad idea, depends on what most xbow users have for str now though.

They have 15 str, most of them. That way they can get high WPF to put into Xbow and sidearm. Making Arbalest 21 str weapon would totally fuck up most of Arbalest users.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2011, 01:07:10 pm
So, they wouldn't have full ranged capability, whilst also having very good kiting AND melee capability? Sounds like a solution.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 01:07:26 pm
Quote
Making Arbalest 21 str weapon would totally fuck up most of Arbalest users.
No
when an arbelest would have 21 str you could make  21/18  with that build you can get over 140 in xbow an rest melee would be too accurate and 90 in melee would be to enough
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 21
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 64

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Ironflesh: 4
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 1
    Two Handed: 90
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 140
    Throwing: 1

this would be too possible
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 21
    Agility: 21
    Hit points: 56

    Skills to attributes: 14

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 4
    Shield: 0
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 0
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 7

    One Handed: 1
    Two Handed: 91
    Polearm: 1
    Archery: 1
    Crossbow: 150
    Throwing: 1
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 12, 2011, 01:10:43 pm
Arbalest with 160 wpf is still not as accurate as it used to be, at the usual distance you engage archers at, you can fit two of them into the crosshair.

So please refrain from making assumptions.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 01:12:53 pm
Quote
Arbalest with 160 wpf is still not as accurate as it used to be
that made me laughing i had an stf xbow man with 150 in xbow and with the light xbow the cross hair was almoust closed
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 12, 2011, 01:13:41 pm
Yes, light Xbow. Arbalest is different.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 01:14:47 pm
light xbow is less accurate than an arbalest  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Hotpokka on August 12, 2011, 01:23:47 pm
I can safely say I prefer a team of xbow men vs a team of longbow men. Long bowmen can scatter like roaches while firing. Xbow men can scatter and not fire. This is all based on whether or not the xbow men are skilled players because real good xbow men when you get close will assault you with their melee archers will just flee like the little skill less girls they are.

[I believe the longbow is the superior ranged weapon]

However I prefer Xbow men because they tend to have more testicular fortitude and man up to help their team in melee support when needed.
But you have to invest PD into bows, a direct comparison is not really fair
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: bosco on August 12, 2011, 01:24:52 pm
@Psycho

Not really. Pictures taken with 161 wpf in crossbow and light-medium gear.

Light Xbow
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9526/lightqh.jpg
Crossbow
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1452/crossbowm.jpg
Arbalest
http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/7857/arbalest.jpg

Regular crossbow is the most accurate.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Eddy on August 12, 2011, 01:29:32 pm
yes right ok less accurate
but! you dont 1 shot guys with an normal xbow when ya hit the hands :S
and ! the crosshair is bigger when you play in the 1. view i prefer the 2. person when im playing with bows or xbows
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 12, 2011, 03:42:13 pm
Arbalest with 160 wpf is still not as accurate as it used to be, at the usual distance you engage archers at, you can fit two of them into the crosshair.

So please refrain from making assumptions.

At the same distance, an archer with a longbow or some such, can fit 4 or more crossbowmen into the crosshair  :wink:
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Karmazyn on August 13, 2011, 02:58:21 pm
24 str for arbalest:
build 24/18
5 ps, 6 athletics, 6 wm with 156 wpf
No more super sniper running away with 8 athletics, no more heavy/medium armor but still useful choice

21 str for heavy crossbow:

-build 21/21
3 ps, 7 athletics, 7 wm with 164 wpf
Good alternative to arbalest, more accuracy, more athletics to get save.


This are for not dedicated crossbowmen
18 str crossbow
17-18 str for light crossbow
No more 12/27 super horseman with crossbow
15 str for hunting crossbow

This can be changed in one minute.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fartface on August 13, 2011, 04:16:26 pm
and what about HA xbows this way.
this makes no sense at al.
the thing with the arbalest solves there runaway but thats not the problem anyway.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 04:27:00 pm
24 str for arbalest:
build 24/18
5 ps, 6 athletics, 6 wm with 156 wpf
No more super sniper running away with 8 athletics, no more heavy/medium armor but still useful choice

21 str for heavy crossbow:

-build 21/21
3 ps, 7 athletics, 7 wm with 164 wpf
Good alternative to arbalest, more accuracy, more athletics to get save.


This are for not dedicated crossbowmen
18 str crossbow
17-18 str for light crossbow
No more 12/27 super horseman with crossbow
15 str for hunting crossbow

This can be changed in one minute.

Entirely out of proportion.  Unlike War Bows, Crossbows did not require great strength to operate due to the reloading mechanisms they employed.  Yet you suggest in order to be an Arbalester one must be the medieval equivalent of Hulk Hogan.  If it takes 20 strength to swing a Great Maul, it wouldn't take half that to wind a cranequin or windlass.  Great strength is the domain of archers and infantry.

Buff archery accuracy to be nearly equal to crossbows.
Decrease wpf penalty on archers in armour so that mail is viable.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Adam_Bomb on August 13, 2011, 05:31:30 pm
This thread is full of fail and whiners.

Edit: To clarify:
1.  adding a higher strength requirement would destroy dedicated xbowmen, what does a sniper need with he-man strength?? 

2.  Why do we need to get rid of running xbows? I get one hit by most melee weapons, hell yeah I'm gonna run. If you don't like it, pick another target.

3.  As has been said, xbows account for a very small % of all kills, why are we even having this discussion?

4. The over nerf of bows seems to be what started all this nerf arbalest crap.  Bows need to be buffed back.  Not all range be brought down to uselessness.

5.  If you really want to nerf Arbs, tweak wpf requirements, dedicated xbows don't need a nerf, there are not many of us as is.

6.  If these melee whiners get the arb nerfed, I think 2 handed weapons need to lose 30% speed and power when it rains also.  Lets see if THEY mind that.

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Hotpokka on August 13, 2011, 06:03:21 pm
1.  adding a higher strength requirement would destroy dedicated xbowmen, what does a sniper need with he-man strength?? 
Why? Because you can't have 150 WPF in crossbows AND 100 in 1h while you run around with 8 athl?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 06:52:43 pm
3.  As has been said, xbows account for a very small % of all kills, why are we even having this discussion?

People ignore statistics that do not support their arguments.  The word is that the Dev team desire ranged to account for 20% of kills (currently ~ %10), which leaves 80% for melee.  If people cry this much when one death in twenty is by crossbow, think how much they will cry when it is one in ten.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Karmazyn on August 13, 2011, 07:08:21 pm
Entirely out of proportion.  Unlike War Bows, Crossbows did not require great strength to operate due to the reloading mechanisms they employed.  Yet you suggest in order to be an Arbalester one must be the medieval equivalent of Hulk Hogan.  If it takes 20 strength to swing a Great Maul, it wouldn't take half that to wind a cranequin or windlass.  Great strength is the domain of archers and infantry.

18/18 is a balanced build, so average man has 18 str. Would you agree that a warrior need to have more str than an average man? So 21/24 str for a warrior is nothing special, on the other hand a warrior with 15 str is a weak man and with 12 str is a child, crazy how such weak people should be able to win the war or come through winter. 8-)

Buff archery accuracy to be nearly equal to crossbows.
Decrease wpf penalty on archers in armour so that mail is viable.

Is it hide and shoot or mount and blade?



Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 08:05:50 pm
18/18 is a balanced build, so average man has 18 str. Would you agree that a warrior need to have more str than an average man? So 21/24 str for a warrior is nothing special, on the other hand a warrior with 15 str is a weak man and with 12 str is a child, crazy how such weak people should be able to win the war or come through winter. 8-)

Is it hide and shoot or mount and blade?

I can't discern an actual point amongst your pretzel logic.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Adam_Bomb on August 13, 2011, 08:48:24 pm
Why? Because you can't have 150 WPF in crossbows AND 100 in 1h while you run around with 8 athl?

Uhh, yeah...along with 0 powerstrike and 0 iron flesh...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Starfucker on August 13, 2011, 09:45:12 pm
This thread is full of fail and whiners.

Edit: To clarify:
1.  adding a higher strength requirement would destroy dedicated xbowmen, what does a sniper need with he-man strength?? 

 I think a lot of the whine comes from the fact that pretty much everyone can pick up a xbow to augment their kills. Its like throwing before their great nerf. A higher str requirement would have exactly  the wrong effect.

Quote
2.  Why do we need to get rid of running xbows? I get one hit by most melee weapons, hell yeah I'm gonna run. If you don't like it, pick another target.

The only problem I see with this is that xbows really can't hit and run like archers can. Running is a decent tactic for archers. Xbows typically mix in some melee skills in their build because there is no dedicated xbow skills and they can't hit and run. I really don't see how running is more than an annoyance.

Quote
3.  As has been said, xbows account for a very small % of all kills, why are we even having this discussion?

I have yet to see any source for this statistic. Apparently its old. It doesn't necessarily mean that xbow isn't OP, though. For one, ranged tends to have more effect on a battle than kills show. People are generally hit with ranged before they are hit with melee. This leads to a lot of damage with not a lot of kills to show. It would be a mistake to try to balance the number of kills with melee, who's job it is to finish off weakened and distracted opponent. I can say (with the high amount of certainty that comes from not having any hard statistics) that xbows account for the majority of my ranged deaths atm.

Quote
4. The over nerf of bows seems to be what started all this nerf arbalest crap.  Bows need to be buffed back.  Not all range be brought down to uselessness.
No comment

Quote
5.  If you really want to nerf Arbs, tweak wpf requirements, dedicated xbows don't need a nerf, there are not many of us as is.
What xbow really needs is its own skill. Something to reward dedicated xbows and diversify their builds more than "how many points should i put into melee".

Quote
6.  If these melee whiners get the arb nerfed, I think 2 handed weapons need to lose 30% speed and power when it rains also.  Lets see if THEY mind that.
It would be kind of funny if all weapons lost speed and power in the rain. As it is, the rain makes it hard to balance xbows, as they are OP or UP based on how the server is feeling at the moment. I guess that's what happens when you try to add sporadic bits of realism to the game.



All this being said, I don't think xbows are all that overpowered. Throwing is still a bit UP and it seems that ranged balance is favoring high damaged low firing speed weapons (of which the arablast is king). So buff throwing and low damage bows, lower arablast damage a bit in favor of a higher firing speed and reward dedicated xbows over melee hybrids and everything will be better in the ranged camp. (This will do nothing to stop whining, you can't stop that).
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 10:10:00 pm
I have yet to see any source for this statistic. Apparently its old.

Depends if you count less than a month old.

DID I HEAR STATISTICS TIME??????????

Eu1 last week: (12.7. to 18.7.)
One handed:         47578 (25.96%)
Two handed:        51864 (28.30%)
Polearms:         51689 (28.20%)
Bow:            13918 (7.59%)
Crossbows:          7563 (4.13%)
Thrown:          1978 (1.08%)
Headshot:          6630 (3.62%)
horsebump:          1982 (1.08%) nerf cav nao
Others:            62 (0.03%)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 13, 2011, 10:42:05 pm
It is not xbows themselves that are OP, it is the builds that can use them.

A somewhat average xbowman build? 
(click to show/hide)

This char can kite, can exit and enter melee at will, can fight in melee AND has VERY good ranged capability. A bit much, don't you think?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 10:50:53 pm
    Power Strike: 5 - gives decent melee capability, can kill most opponents with any decent weapon

Similarly, one can cut down a redwood with a hatchet.  It will just take a while.  Using 5 powerstrike, 86 2h and a tempered langes messer, I have to hit Phyrex (who has 70+ chest armour) in excess of ten times to kill him.  I can only imagine how many hits it would take with 1 proficiency.

The 15/24 build is by no means exclusive to xbowmen, many melee builds also boast 8 athletics.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 13, 2011, 10:53:54 pm
Xbowmen are generally lightly equipped, thus can run faster. Also, way to go, using phyrex as an example. The average player dies in 4-5 hits from a flanged mace (not exactly hard hitting) and 5 PS.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Spawny on August 13, 2011, 11:04:35 pm
Xbowmen are generally lightly equipped, thus can run faster. Also, way to go, using phyrex as an example. The average player dies in 4-5 hits from a flanged mace (not exactly hard hitting) and 5 PS.

And you will die in 1 hit from his weapon due to that same light armour and low hp. Mess up once with your 1h weapon or very short 2hander and you're dead.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 13, 2011, 11:09:23 pm
By light equipment i meant not carrying a heavy shield or a large weapon, mail-clad xbowmen still outrun melee fighters (who are mostly Str-heavy anyways). And even if they do happen to die in 1 hit in melee... That doesn't balance it out.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gnjus on August 13, 2011, 11:18:41 pm
Xbows are just over-used, there's tons of D.E.D.I.C.A.T.E.D. crossbowman plus a good number of side-weapon shot-gunners and in most of the cases its firing squads of bows & crossbows who stay last, that's why people believe it to be OP. Old story of players mentality, ranged weapons are not THAT OP but just too many people want to play this game as a shooter rather then a close-combat-action. Case closed, move on.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 13, 2011, 11:21:46 pm
By light equipment i meant not carrying a heavy shield or a large weapon, mail-clad xbowmen still outrun melee fighters (who are mostly Str-heavy anyways). And even if they do happen to die in 1 hit in melee... That doesn't balance it out.

I think it does.  You trade melee lethality for ranged lethality.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 13, 2011, 11:23:51 pm
No? 5 PS is plenty of melee lethality.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Miley on August 14, 2011, 12:54:05 am
NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERF!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 14, 2011, 01:41:32 am
No? 5 PS is plenty of melee lethality.

Take 5 ps and 1 proficiency - take a langes messer - go on a duel server, see how lethal you are against mail and plate clad melee specs - realise you overestimated the build's abilities - come on this thread and apologise.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 01:55:38 am
Try using something other than the langes messer and come back to this thread and apologise  :rolleyes:

-edit: Also, langes messer, 1 wpf, 5 PS, against a guy in mamluke mail and... hourglass gauntlets probably - 3-5 good hits. If you can't kill a guy with 5 PS and 1 wpf, then you probably just need to get better at melee, because the stats are quite enough for it.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on August 14, 2011, 02:45:42 am
Try using something other than the langes messer and come back to this thread and apologise  :rolleyes:

-edit: Also, langes messer, 1 wpf, 5 PS, against a guy in mamluke mail and... hourglass gauntlets probably - 3-5 good hits. If you can't kill a guy with 5 PS and 1 wpf, then you probably just need to get better at melee, because the stats are quite enough for it.

Or he could quit playing and take his BS to another place :)
I got 4 Ps, atm im going with the mace..5 or 6 hits to take down a heavy armored guy! 3-4 hits on a medium and 2 hits on a light armored dude!

It also depends on how u hit him...if ur using overheads more often u kill them faster!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 14, 2011, 12:43:01 pm
Try using something other than the langes messer and come back to this thread and apologise  :rolleyes:

-edit: Also, langes messer, 1 wpf, 5 PS, against a guy in mamluke mail and... hourglass gauntlets probably - 3-5 good hits. If you can't kill a guy with 5 PS and 1 wpf, then you probably just need to get better at melee, because the stats are quite enough for it.

In an equal playing field with equally skilled players, the crossbowman will lose in melee.  He has inferior proficiency, inferior weaponry and likely inferior Armour and Strength also. Which equates to significantly less damage, range, speed, and personal health.  This is inarguable. If however the crossbowman wins due to personal skill (or his opponent's ineptitude), then why is that a problem?  Surely skill should be rewarded, no?  Particularly when it overcomes such a handicap.

Or he could quit playing and take his BS to another place :)
I got 4 Ps, atm im going with the mace..5 or 6 hits to take down a heavy armored guy! 3-4 hits on a medium and 2 hits on a light armored dude!

It also depends on how u hit him...if ur using overheads more often u kill them faster!

My BS also includes a desire to rigorously buff your class.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 12:56:59 pm
In an equal playing field with equally skilled players, the crossbowman will lose in melee.  He has inferior proficiency, inferior weaponry and likely inferior Armour and Strength also. Which equates to significantly less damage, range, speed, and personal health.  This is inarguable. If however the crossbowman wins due to personal skill (or his opponent's ineptitude), then why is that a problem?  Surely skill should be rewarded, no?  Particularly when it overcomes such a handicap.
Yeah, being EQUAL in melee would be the only thing that crossbowmen don't have right now.
Goddamnit, do you not get it? No other class has full ranged capability whilst also having VIABLE melee capability AND the option to disengage melee at will, most of the time.

My BS also includes a desire to rigorously buff your class.
Archers are well balanced right now (nice try at a "bribe", lol, at least you admit that something is at an imbalance here ;)). And, unlike crossbows, a dedicated archer can't really have 5 PS or high athlethics, whilst maintaining any sort of precision (which is still inferior to that of xbows). With 0-2 PS, an archer doesn't really stand much of a chance in melee at all.

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Kafein on August 14, 2011, 01:24:46 pm
the 15/24 arbalest/mace build is just plain OP

1 wpf in 2h and I feel like I'm faster with the mace than with my MW bec on my pole char.
I have 5PS and played accordingly to this high agi I can have a 1/1 k/d only using my melee weapon. I'm pretty bad with the xbow but the reticule is amazingly small though I don't have any heirloomed item. And thanks to the high speed I always find cover or can run from too difficult melee fights. Hell, even on open field I can shoot at an archer, miss then chase him and likely kill him because tracking a 8 ath will-o-the-wisp is a nightmare for him.

Try it as STF before arguing it's balanced.

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 14, 2011, 01:29:24 pm
Yeah, being EQUAL in melee would be the only thing that crossbowmen don't have right now.
Goddamnit, do you not get it? No other class has full ranged capability whilst also having VIABLE melee capability AND the option to disengage melee at will, most of the time.

I understand you seem to think that dedication to ranged should presuppose complete flipper-handed incompetence in melee.  That, when inevitably confronted in melee, I should have no chance to defend myself.  That, I should either flee, or accidentally cut off my own hands whilst wielding the sword back to front.

What I do not understand is why you desire a class to be unviable in melee in a game which is 85% melee.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 01:36:43 pm
I don't know... maybe... BALANCE? You know, you make COMPROMISES in char builds, when making other classes?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MadJackMcMad on August 14, 2011, 01:38:50 pm
I don't know... maybe... BALANCE? You know, you make COMPROMISES in char builds, when making other classes?

Like for ranged ability you sacrifice melee damage, range, speed and survivability?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Kafein on August 14, 2011, 01:43:23 pm
I understand you seem to think that dedication to ranged should presuppose complete flipper-handed incompetence in melee.  That, when inevitably confronted in melee, I should have no chance to defend myself.  That, I should either flee, or accidentally cut off my own hands whilst wielding the sword back to front.

What I do not understand is why you desire a class to be unviable in melee in a game which is 85% melee.

Because melee classes are 100% unviable in ranged ?

Anyway, nerfing the melee capabilities of ranged classes isn't the way to go because it lead to running ranged, which is even worse
. Instead, I suggest that ranged weapons should loose effectiveness but ranged classes should be buffed in melee capacity accordingly to this ranged weapons nerf.

IMO throwers are OK now. Not very accurate but have very good melee options. Archers are OK but not in the good way. They have powerful ranged weapons but are completly crap in melee. If they want to stand a chance in melee, they have to gimp themselves ranged damage-wise. Bows should be slightly tweaked in a way that going no-melee as an archer would be suicidal, and melee capacity should be decent (less than throwers and xbows though). Finally, xbows should be between throwers and archers. Good melee and good ranged.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 01:49:08 pm
Disagree with the above. Archers, for example, are well balanced. If they want to be accurate, they have to be 100% dedicated to archery, which means they have at most 2 or 3 (i don't remember exactly) skill points to put into either athlethics or PS, which still doesn't make them either good kiters or actually viable in melee.

My solution would be to either up the str requirements of xbows, so as to reduce the maximum agility (and thus athlethics) that you can reach with it, at least without taking away skillpoints from PS, and/or drastically increasing the weight of xbows, to reduce their running speed.

Still, not a full solution, i guess, but probably the best we have without WSE.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 14, 2011, 02:43:42 pm
Wut ptx? Unless you go for an insane amount of pd, most archers go for 6+athletics.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 02:46:47 pm
6 PD, 8 WM? 7 WM is no accuracy with the top tier bows...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 14, 2011, 02:48:56 pm
6 PD, 8 WM? 7 WM is no accuracy with the top tier bows...
This is the standard archer build atm, my clan leader amongst others has no problems at all with accuracy:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 02:55:38 pm
If by accuracy you mean shotgunning in sieges as defender or firing into large groups of enemies, rather than hitting a single target at medium range more than half the time.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Malaclypse on August 14, 2011, 03:04:18 pm
Relating to the posts on the past page or so: Archers can be perfectly viable in melee while still doing damage at range. 18/18 build is very solid from my experience with it for two generations, using MW Tatar Bow and +1-2 Tatar Arrows, 6pd/ath/ps/wm, all wpp into archery, using no prof Iberian Mace. A fairly large amount of my kills were from melee. I couldn't take down plate very well from a distance, but that's what the ps+blunt was for, and light to high medium armor still dropped in a few arrows.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Magikarp on August 14, 2011, 03:06:08 pm
If by accuracy you mean shotgunning in sieges as defender or firing into large groups of enemies, rather than hitting a single target at medium range more than half the time.
They have (over) 160 wpf, that's more than enough for a light armour archer. Not to mention that that long range isn't even possible anymore with archery anymore. As I stated before, crossbows are now the snipers.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Okkam on August 14, 2011, 03:57:24 pm
Tatar bow and +1 tatar arrows? Welcome to the «Shoot the peasant only» club.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Karmazyn on August 14, 2011, 04:01:46 pm
Even theWitch switched to crossbow, so OP is this class. 8-)
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Leshma on August 14, 2011, 09:34:50 pm
I don't think that Xbow is OP, however...

everyone has one!

This madness has to stop. Again we have too much ranged bundle of sticksry in this mod.

Can you do something about it? Nerf it, put reqs higher, anything?

Edit: When I saw Rubicon with the Xbow, I wanted to strangle myself with the keyboard cable...

If I see Chase using one on his 2H char, I'll definately go nuts.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gnjus on August 14, 2011, 10:33:05 pm
Leshma: i think Chase already uses it occasionally, in any case - yes, we have way too many crossbow users, even people who never wanted to use it are simply forced into it cause they get frustrated with dying to firing squads or unreachable snipers. I could name a dozen people who I'd never think I'd see with a crossbow but yet they are playing it. That's just how it is, it's easier to find a cover and shoot then just run forwards and get pincushioned by bows, crossbows & throwing things. Ranged is over-used and there's nothing more to it. Solution ?   None. You can't kill it off by nerfs, limitations of all kinds, nothing. Even if you gave them just 1 bolt or 1 arrow to shoot people will still play archers & crossbowmen and you'd had at least 1 volley per round that would bring down many before they reach combat. Easy mod & free kills FTW.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 14, 2011, 10:40:12 pm
I complain about range spam yet I let an archer join my clan and before that every ex-my old friend member used a crossbow, but it is ok we are not hypocrites because we have special privileges due to a variety of imaginative excuses that no one else is allowed to use.

Right.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 10:43:20 pm
How exactly does having used ranged and still using it, yet admitting it is over-used make him a hypocrite?  :|
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 14, 2011, 10:44:24 pm
How exactly does having used ranged and still using it, yet admitting it is over-used make him a hypocrite?  :|

I never said he was a hypocrite, I said he was not a hypocrite...  :|
I was just summarizing his post for the TL:DR version.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 10:48:07 pm
What is this i don't even

I never said you called him a hypocrite, i asked how does something make him one.

Implication much?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 14, 2011, 10:49:35 pm
I never said that you said that I called him a hypocrite, I merely was pointing out that I did not call him one. Implication much?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on August 14, 2011, 10:50:39 pm
Really, what the fuck are you posting?  :?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 14, 2011, 10:51:05 pm
Who are you talking to?
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Razzen on August 14, 2011, 10:57:20 pm
What is this. I dont even-
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: rustyspoon on August 14, 2011, 11:16:07 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Leshma on August 14, 2011, 11:25:17 pm
I complain about range spam yet I let an archer join my clan and before that every ex-my old friend member used a crossbow, but it is ok we are not hypocrites because we have special privileges due to a variety of imaginative excuses that no one else is allowed to use.

Gazda was horse archer before Gnjus and him created my old friend, then Gazda choose throwing instead of archery. I was hybrid archer for short period of time before I joined my old friend and I think it sux to be an archer. I used Xbow and was thrower for one gen but I dislike ranged (tho being super OP thrower who one hit the most skilled 2H players had some advantages, I won't lie  :mrgreen:).

Btw Gnjus is a famous xbowman and Fasader's favourite weapon is xbow. If one of them says that something is wrong with number of xbows on the battlefield, that's how it is.

I agree with Gnjus about ranged. They suck so much at everything else, even if they had 1 arrow they would still play it.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gurnisson on August 15, 2011, 02:54:41 am
They suck so much at everything else, even if they had 1 arrow they would still play it.

So most ranged players suck at everything bar releasing projectiles? Right...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: ThePoopy on August 15, 2011, 08:17:52 pm
most ranged suck at releasing projectiles too
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Leshma on August 16, 2011, 01:27:04 am
True. You're one of better archers I've seen.

But in archers defense I must say that they don't shoot into melee fights as they used to, they either evolved or all idiots went xbow :D
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: polkafranzi on September 09, 2011, 03:55:16 pm
bump

cos xbows are OP

and it's the fact that 80% of people carry one these days, really fail.  i got screens to prove it ^^
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MrShine on September 09, 2011, 05:10:35 pm
bump

cos xbows are OP

and it's the fact that 80% of people carry one these days, really fail.  i got screens to prove it ^^

I think arbalest is probably fine.  It is very rare anything survives 2 hits, it would have to have been a long distance shot one of those or mega str builds in plate.   But that weapon reloads so goddamn slow it depends on 1-2 shotting most players.  Change that to 2-3 shotting and I guarantee usage would drop like a rock (which is a bad thing since it's for dedicated xbowmen).

I think if you start with leaving the arbalest as is and work your way down that might be the better approach to balancing.  With the recent changes to cut damage the xbow pierce is invaluable when compared to most of the other bows (long bow as exception.. hmm funny how that bow has exploded in popularity eh?). 

Maybe that means tweaking wpf for xbows; have base 1wpf xbow reticle be awful but make higher wpf levels reduce it back to how it is now.  Maybe that means reducing pierce damage a bit for the lower xbows, I don't know.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 09, 2011, 05:16:05 pm
I am fine with the arbalest, I just have a problem with everyone still carrying the top 1 slot Crossbow as a sidearm.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fasader on September 09, 2011, 05:29:38 pm
What some of you are suggesting:
One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          997233 (94.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

Actual numbers:

One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          7233 (4.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

I mean seriously, if there's 80% people packing crossbows how do they get only 4.85% kills? You'd think it's time to buff crossbows if you listened to all the anti-xbow whiners.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 09, 2011, 05:33:08 pm
What some of you are suggesting:
One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          997233 (94.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

Actual numbers:

One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          7233 (4.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

I mean seriously, if there's 80% people packing crossbows how do they get only 4.85% kills? You'd think it's time to buff crossbows if you listened to all the anti-xbow whiners.

Well most people bitch that they are tired of seeing so many projectiles (I personaly am just tired of seeing so many crossbows period, even if they can't hit shit due to the vast amount of 1 wpf users).
Do you have numbers that have the amount of users who use the things though so we can find the ratio of users/effectiveness? Otherwise, you seriously need to buff Horsebump too, and I mean really buff horsebump, and throwing too.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MrShine on September 09, 2011, 05:40:11 pm
Good to see stats to bring things down to earth.  A few important questions still exist though:

- Those are kill percentages (I'm assuming for EU servers only).  However what about player usage %?  I would be willing to bet there are more than double the amount of archers out there compared to dedicated xbowmen, which could be a large reason for the low kill  %

-Headshot: throws things off but I guess is a moot point since bow throwing and xbow would all increase a bit.

-The 'sidearm problem' is probably invisible in those stats.  80% (ok not really that much)  could just as easily be using a cheap xbow as a sidearm to fire off a few shots before engaging on melee.  They thus weaken the enemy but get the kill via their melee weapon.


And yeah clearly it's time to triple horsebump damage.

E: FU ToD your forum reply skillz have bested me yet again!
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: polkafranzi on September 09, 2011, 05:53:18 pm
Well most people bitch that they are tired of seeing so many projectiles (I personaly am just tired of seeing so many crossbows period, even if they can't hit shit due to the vast amount of 1 wpf users).

this
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Memento_Mori on September 09, 2011, 05:54:16 pm
What some of you are suggesting:
One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          997233 (94.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

Actual numbers:

One handed:         29799 (19.96%)
Two handed:        44510 (29.82%)
Polearms:         47422 (31.77%)
Bow:            11412 (7.65%)
Crossbows:          7233 (4.85%)
Thrown:          1563 (1.05%)
Headshot:          5235 (3.51%)
Horsebump:          2055 (1.38%)
Others:            44 (0.03%)
Teamkills:          4904 (3.29%)

I mean seriously, if there's 80% people packing crossbows how do they get only 4.85% kills? You'd think it's time to buff crossbows if you listened to all the anti-xbow whiners.

Am I the only one in this stupid game that thinks Kills mean nothing, it's the damage you do to your opponent. These stats are really pointless imo, since it only shows who gets the last hit most of the time, which of course would not be the slow reloading crossbow, or the slightly faster bows, or horse bumps,  or the uber low ammunition and low damage throwing.

Most xbows have a melee weapon, just recently I've gone xbow for the first time for strat, I sit in one spot usually a tower or hill and shoot and shoot until they come to get me then I whip out my mw melee weapon and 1 hit them. This obviously means we should buff xbows because I make all my kills with my melee weapon whilst only being able to weaken them with my xbow.. xD


on topic, crossbows are pretty much fine, you pay mass upkeep if you don't have any proficiency in your crossbow. Then again with new WPF scaling it's stupid not to hybrid at least 1 other proficiency.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fasader on September 09, 2011, 06:05:27 pm
Good to see stats to bring things down to earth.  A few important questions still exist though:

- Those are kill percentages (I'm assuming for EU servers only).  However what about player usage %?  I would be willing to bet there are more than double the amount of archers out there compared to dedicated xbowmen, which could be a large reason for the low kill  %

-Headshot: throws things off but I guess is a moot point since bow throwing and xbow would all increase a bit.

-The 'sidearm problem' is probably invisible in those stats.  80% (ok not really that much)  could just as easily be using a cheap xbow as a sidearm to fire off a few shots before engaging on melee.  They thus weaken the enemy but get the kill via their melee weapon.


And yeah clearly it's time to triple horsebump damage.

E: FU ToD your forum reply skillz have bested me yet again!


player usage is obviously 80%.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: [ptx] on September 09, 2011, 06:10:46 pm
Just how many % of kills did bows make before the last nerf? Or before the previous one? Or the one before that, when they were WAAAAAAAY OP? Hmm? % of kills isn't the stat to balance things around...
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: MrShine on September 09, 2011, 06:37:30 pm
player usage is obviously 80%.

80% is an obvious exaggeration.  I never used it seriously, that was someone I quoted.

But saying 4.85% of kills come from xbows adds just as little to the issue of "too many xbow sidearms", for the reasons that a lot of people above have already mentioned.

Damage dealt and % of people equipping X weapon are much much better indicators.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: polkafranzi on September 09, 2011, 06:40:58 pm
80% is an obvious exaggeration.  I never used it seriously, that was someone I quoted.

But saying 4.85% of kills come from xbows adds just as little to the issue of "too many xbow sidearms", for the reasons that a lot of people above have already mentioned.

Damage dealt and % of people equipping X weapon are much much better indicators.

It was me, I was just raging when i said 80%, but i checked my screens from the spawn of 1 battle revolution (on Eu1), where i screenshotted everybody as they spawned, and it's about 25% carrying an xbow, and then another 20% using bow, with a couple of throwers added in.  So...50% is ranged from that example, and the other 50% is pretty much 2hers and cav. 
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tore on September 09, 2011, 06:56:48 pm
1. Put some skills into shield.
2. Buy a shield
3. ????
4. Profit.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: polkafranzi on September 09, 2011, 07:04:30 pm
1. Put some skills into the most boring class of all.
2. Buy a boring piece of defensive equipment.
3. Join grey order.
4. Fail.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: rustyspoon on September 09, 2011, 07:19:20 pm
1. Put some skills into shield.
2. Buy a shield
3. ????
4. Profit.

You do know that it's pretty easy to shoot around shields and some xbows can fire through shields at close range, right?

The devs really seem to have a hard-on for xbows, so I doubt they'll ever be changed. However, they desperately need some type of investment to be useful. That way, only dedicated xbowers really benefit from them instead of being the bullshit shotgun weapon that they are now. So, just make them terribly inaccurate and horrendously slow without a WPF investment. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: B4dg3r on September 09, 2011, 09:27:34 pm
Ok, maybe I'm biased as a dedicated xbowman, however, I don't feel an xbow nerf is the answer here.  I agree with those who posted here and suggest either a minimum wpf requirement for xbows or greatly reduced accuracy for low wpf (1-30?) xbow users to discourage them being used so often and so effectively as a sidearm. 

The idea of making xbows have a higher str requirement and thus destroying the current 15/24 build most dedicated xbowmen use doesn't seem like a good idea.  Furthermore, the logic used in deciding that dedicated xbowmen should be less proficient in melee because dedicated archers are is flawed, if for no other reason that this:  You can kite and shoot people chasing you with a bow which makes melee slightly less important.  As an xbowman, an arbalest user anyways, there is no kiting once an enemy gets within 30 yards or so.  At that point you pray that your shot kills him, otherwise

1) You switch to melee and have a go, or 
2) You run for a very, very long time and hope he loses interest in you. 

A melee nerf for dedicated xbow builds would result in option 2 happening much more often.  Imo, leave dedicated xbow builds alone, make 1wpf sidearm xbows less viable and give bows/archers a much needed buff (projectile speed/dmg increase for sure).
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 09, 2011, 09:29:34 pm
Yes please, increasing the wpf curve so anything less then 100 is rubbish would be great. I wonder if it is possible to code in wpf minimums, that would be nice.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Gravoth_iii on September 09, 2011, 09:33:13 pm
I dont think xbows are that op, sure it sucks getting hit and loosing like 70% early battle, but with a shield i can usually dodge it. Xbows have a slow reload but high damage, I think it is pretty balanced.
With a decent amount of Ironflesh you will survive a MW arbalest shot, so either that or a shield. Dont really have to nerf it, people just need to be able to counter them.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Tore on September 10, 2011, 10:43:57 am
Yes please, increasing the wpf curve so anything less then 100 is rubbish would be great. I wonder if it is possible to code in wpf minimums, that would be nice.

Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Razzen on September 10, 2011, 11:10:18 am
I think arbalest is probably fine.  It is very rare anything survives 2 hits, it would have to have been a long distance shot one of those or mega str builds in plate.   But that weapon reloads so goddamn slow it depends on 1-2 shotting most players.  Change that to 2-3 shotting and I guarantee usage would drop like a rock (which is a bad thing since it's for dedicated xbowmen).

I think if you start with leaving the arbalest as is and work your way down that might be the better approach to balancing.  With the recent changes to cut damage the xbow pierce is invaluable when compared to most of the other bows (long bow as exception.. hmm funny how that bow has exploded in popularity eh?). 

Maybe that means tweaking wpf for xbows; have base 1wpf xbow reticle be awful but make higher wpf levels reduce it back to how it is now.  Maybe that means reducing pierce damage a bit for the lower xbows, I don't know.
Actually I never get 1 shots with my arbalest on my alt, not even on light armored archers, i pretty much only 1-shot people who have already been damaged or if its a headshot. I think the people 1 shotting must have heirloomed steel bolts or arbalest.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: polkafranzi on September 10, 2011, 11:38:58 am
(click to show/hide)

look at his face, don't let a retard use something that's OP, like most cRPG xbowers.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Fasader on September 11, 2011, 03:28:15 am
Actually I never get 1 shots with my arbalest on my alt, not even on light armored archers, i pretty much only 1-shot people who have already been damaged or if its a headshot. I think the people 1 shotting must have heirloomed steel bolts or arbalest.

bullshit, arbalests clearly 1-shot ironclad 13IF bastards let alone archers.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Varyag on September 11, 2011, 03:52:50 am
Dedicated  MW arbalester and MW Steel botls here. For me 1shotting people is extremely rare, unless it is a headshot or shot from the way higher altitude, where bolt has significantly higher speed.

In my opninon, xbows (eespecially arbalests) don't need nerf, they are slow as hell to reload, and if you miss, you won't have second shot, which is balancing their high damage
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: marco1391 on September 11, 2011, 01:01:15 pm
imo the sistem could be pretty simple: nerf the starting accuracy and let wpf count less at the start and more at the end of the value
for exemple wpf until 84 count as 0.5 effective wpf and wpf past 88 count as 1.5 effective wpf
this would mean that an 84 wpf xbower would be pretty useless with 42 effective wpf and the reduced accuracy for low wpf counter
however a 140 wpf would mean 42+56*1.5=126 effective wpf
150 wpf would mean 141 effective wpf
160 would mean 156 effective wpf
170 would mean 170 effective wpf(point where it would be exactly the same)
180 would mean 186 effective wpf
and so on
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Nemeth on September 12, 2011, 09:24:32 pm
Yes please, increasing the wpf curve so anything less then 100 is rubbish would be great. I wonder if it is possible to code in wpf minimums, that would be nice.

This is being suggested for a months, countless of patches went through and it never happened. So i have little hope for it ever being implemented.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Overdriven on September 12, 2011, 11:08:45 pm
wpf requirements should be raised. I can take an Arbalest in a siege in strat and still get a good number of kills with it. The crosshairs are fairly close with 0 wpf.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on September 13, 2011, 02:37:40 pm
It shoud not be raised, xbow shoud have their own skill like power draw to use it, so not any 1 can take it, because right now im dedicated xbow man with 172 wpf and it  is so crappy differense between 150 (( but this 22 expensive wpf i can spend in some melee to hit faster, so if you raise it, it wood be shit accuracy.
Title: Re: Op Xbows!
Post by: Overdriven on September 13, 2011, 06:53:43 pm
It shoud not be raised, xbow shoud have their own skill like power draw to use it, so not any 1 can take it, because right now im dedicated xbow man with 172 wpf and it  is so crappy differense between 150 (( but this 22 expensive wpf i can spend in some melee to hit faster, so if you raise it, it wood be shit accuracy.

I believe it's possible for the wpf requirements to be shifted. For example, 0-80 wpf is wide as hell and only shows a minor improvement. Anything over 80 wpf however begins to show much more of an improvement. That would benefit dedicated xbowmen, but punish all those running around with very little wpf. I think they did this with horse archery?