Op Xbows!

[MadJackMcMad]

Try using something other than the langes messer and come back to this thread and apologise 

-edit: Also, langes messer, 1 wpf, 5 PS, against a guy in mamluke mail and... hourglass gauntlets probably - 3-5 good hits. If you can't kill a guy with 5 PS and 1 wpf, then you probably just need to get better at melee, because the stats are quite enough for it.

In an equal playing field with equally skilled players, the crossbowman will lose in melee.  He has inferior proficiency, inferior weaponry and likely inferior Armour and Strength also. Which equates to significantly less damage, range, speed, and personal health.  This is inarguable. If however the crossbowman wins due to personal skill (or his opponent's ineptitude), then why is that a problem?  Surely skill should be rewarded, no?  Particularly when it overcomes such a handicap.

Or he could quit playing and take his BS to another place
I got 4 Ps, atm im going with the mace..5 or 6 hits to take down a heavy armored guy! 3-4 hits on a medium and 2 hits on a light armored dude!

It also depends on how u hit him...if ur using overheads more often u kill them faster!

My BS also includes a desire to rigorously buff your class.

[[ptx]]

In an equal playing field with equally skilled players, the crossbowman will lose in melee.  He has inferior proficiency, inferior weaponry and likely inferior Armour and Strength also. Which equates to significantly less damage, range, speed, and personal health.  This is inarguable. If however the crossbowman wins due to personal skill (or his opponent's ineptitude), then why is that a problem?  Surely skill should be rewarded, no?  Particularly when it overcomes such a handicap.

Yeah, being EQUAL in melee would be the only thing that crossbowmen don't have right now.
Goddamnit, do you not get it? No other class has full ranged capability whilst also having VIABLE melee capability AND the option to disengage melee at will, most of the time.

My BS also includes a desire to rigorously buff your class.

Archers are well balanced right now (nice try at a "bribe", lol, at least you admit that something is at an imbalance here ;)). And, unlike crossbows, a dedicated archer can't really have 5 PS or high athlethics, whilst maintaining any sort of precision (which is still inferior to that of xbows). With 0-2 PS, an archer doesn't really stand much of a chance in melee at all.

[Kafein]

the 15/24 arbalest/mace build is just plain OP

1 wpf in 2h and I feel like I'm faster with the mace than with my MW bec on my pole char.
I have 5PS and played accordingly to this high agi I can have a 1/1 k/d only using my melee weapon. I'm pretty bad with the xbow but the reticule is amazingly small though I don't have any heirloomed item. And thanks to the high speed I always find cover or can run from too difficult melee fights. Hell, even on open field I can shoot at an archer, miss then chase him and likely kill him because tracking a 8 ath will-o-the-wisp is a nightmare for him.

Try it as STF before arguing it's balanced.

[MadJackMcMad]

Yeah, being EQUAL in melee would be the only thing that crossbowmen don't have right now.
Goddamnit, do you not get it? No other class has full ranged capability whilst also having VIABLE melee capability AND the option to disengage melee at will, most of the time.

I understand you seem to think that dedication to ranged should presuppose complete flipper-handed incompetence in melee.  That, when inevitably confronted in melee, I should have no chance to defend myself.  That, I should either flee, or accidentally cut off my own hands whilst wielding the sword back to front.

What I do not understand is why you desire a class to be unviable in melee in a game which is 85% melee.

[[ptx]]

I don't know... maybe... BALANCE? You know, you make COMPROMISES in char builds, when making other classes?

[MadJackMcMad]

I don't know... maybe... BALANCE? You know, you make COMPROMISES in char builds, when making other classes?

Like for ranged ability you sacrifice melee damage, range, speed and survivability?

[Kafein]

I understand you seem to think that dedication to ranged should presuppose complete flipper-handed incompetence in melee.  That, when inevitably confronted in melee, I should have no chance to defend myself.  That, I should either flee, or accidentally cut off my own hands whilst wielding the sword back to front.

What I do not understand is why you desire a class to be unviable in melee in a game which is 85% melee.

Because melee classes are 100% unviable in ranged ?

Anyway, nerfing the melee capabilities of ranged classes isn't the way to go because it lead to running ranged, which is even worse. Instead, I suggest that ranged weapons should loose effectiveness but ranged classes should be buffed in melee capacity accordingly to this ranged weapons nerf.

IMO throwers are OK now. Not very accurate but have very good melee options. Archers are OK but not in the good way. They have powerful ranged weapons but are completly crap in melee. If they want to stand a chance in melee, they have to gimp themselves ranged damage-wise. Bows should be slightly tweaked in a way that going no-melee as an archer would be suicidal, and melee capacity should be decent (less than throwers and xbows though). Finally, xbows should be between throwers and archers. Good melee and good ranged.

[[ptx]]

Disagree with the above. Archers, for example, are well balanced. If they want to be accurate, they have to be 100% dedicated to archery, which means they have at most 2 or 3 (i don't remember exactly) skill points to put into either athlethics or PS, which still doesn't make them either good kiters or actually viable in melee.

My solution would be to either up the str requirements of xbows, so as to reduce the maximum agility (and thus athlethics) that you can reach with it, at least without taking away skillpoints from PS, and/or drastically increasing the weight of xbows, to reduce their running speed.

Still, not a full solution, i guess, but probably the best we have without WSE.

[Magikarp]

Wut ptx? Unless you go for an insane amount of pd, most archers go for 6+athletics.

[[ptx]]

6 PD, 8 WM? 7 WM is no accuracy with the top tier bows...

[Magikarp]

6 PD, 8 WM? 7 WM is no accuracy with the top tier bows...

This is the standard archer build atm, my clan leader amongst others has no problems at all with accuracy:

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21

    Skills to attributes: 8

    Power Strike: 3
    Athletics: 7
    Power Draw: 6
    Weapon Master: 7

[[ptx]]

If by accuracy you mean shotgunning in sieges as defender or firing into large groups of enemies, rather than hitting a single target at medium range more than half the time.

[Malaclypse]

Relating to the posts on the past page or so: Archers can be perfectly viable in melee while still doing damage at range. 18/18 build is very solid from my experience with it for two generations, using MW Tatar Bow and +1-2 Tatar Arrows, 6pd/ath/ps/wm, all wpp into archery, using no prof Iberian Mace. A fairly large amount of my kills were from melee. I couldn't take down plate very well from a distance, but that's what the ps+blunt was for, and light to high medium armor still dropped in a few arrows.

[Magikarp]

If by accuracy you mean shotgunning in sieges as defender or firing into large groups of enemies, rather than hitting a single target at medium range more than half the time.

They have (over) 160 wpf, that's more than enough for a light armour archer. Not to mention that that long range isn't even possible anymore with archery anymore. As I stated before, crossbows are now the snipers.

[Okkam]

Tatar bow and +1 tatar arrows? Welcome to the «Shoot the peasant only» club.