cRPG

Strategus => Strategus General Discussion => Topic started by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2012, 08:38:17 pm

Title: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2012, 08:38:17 pm
What this item is:

http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-enhancment-project/
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 05, 2012, 08:41:01 pm
Best post you've ever made. Would 2+ if I could.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Nessaj on December 05, 2012, 08:54:21 pm
There's a huge difference in actual people sharing screenshots a few times a week and having an large parts automated tool do it for you in a fashionable manner.

I've also heard that this tool allows people to track enemy movement. Lol.

IMHO the worst kinds of cheating in Strategus is DUPING of any kind, which plenty have not been banned for. It offsets the whole balance of the round.
1 person having multiple accounts and using them in Strategus is also the worst kind of cheating, please DIAF :wink:
Sharing your account login is against the rules, which means you get banned obviously, fair and square, but it certainly isn't as serious a cheat as duping or the other type of multi-accounting, not even close, it completely depends on the use. This is also what many have been banned for, people who've never done anything wrong in the mod, who played 24/7 on the normal servers but unfortunately shared their login to their clan leader or who ever so that he could move them around a couple of evenings they weren't home. It is still a DUH! thing to be banned for though. (I don't support sharing of course nor have Nords ever done it).

The real problem is that loads of people are smart enough to hide their cheating well and it is essentially quite an effort to stop the various forms of cheating going on  -- in almost all games I'd presume.

However, this tool, is clearly in the cheating category, it gives an enormous edge over those factions which do not use it. In terms of usability (how much of a 'help' it would be) I would rank it together with multi accounting = worst kind of cheating.

FOG OF WAR gentlemen.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: BASNAK on December 05, 2012, 09:11:22 pm
Cooties is right, +1. ~COOTIES FOR ADMIN~
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Thovex on December 05, 2012, 09:15:06 pm
You mentioned AFKer on a mountain, hey look I see DaveUKR over on that mountain, didn't he quit?!

Oh right!
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Sojetsu on December 05, 2012, 09:31:42 pm
still funny about angry for Union side (was in 1 of threads with merc recruitment). in 1-2-3(begining) strats there was a maybe 3-5 multiaccs. While i left Union (it was before 4 round announce) - was ~ 10 very active, 30 with few online, others 20 was multaccs or with very very seldom online (i mean 2-3 per week), what every week becomes lower and lower. idk why they joined 4 strat cos situation must was sux (idk rly, not took a part). BTW, as i saw their forum - mostly they was bored of new mechanic and few bans not made a reason for leave.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tyr_ on December 05, 2012, 09:41:02 pm
I suggest you to have a look at the number of players using this tool compared to the amount players the different factions have.

The only factions which rly use this tool (according to numbers) would be wolves or soa.

I cant speak for the other people, but i myself turned it off after 2 days. It was interesting to see how this tool works and what you can do with it, I think its a very good idea to add this to strategus as a regular function. From what i know developers were informed about this programm and also appreciate the idea of adding it to strategus.

Some basic info about it:
You roughly see what your faction members see, you can see an enemy armies, but you cant see number count, crates or status (heavy, shiny, etc...)
The idea is of implementing this into strat, so different factions can make agreements, so its basicly like a diplomacy menu as many of us know it from total war (declaring war, trade agreements, sharing vision, etc) but this is not working yet afaik, since that programm is in a very early stage.
You also can give them commands, which basicly means you send them a PM with orders which they see when they log in next time.

As you see its not nearly as good as the method the people that got banned used - sharing account info so one person can control traders, armies or even a whole, even if we would use this tool we would be depending on the members activity since they need to log into strat to actually move around. An alternative would be sending them pms on the crpg page, which actually has the same effect.


You can put it as you want, but account sharing is as big of an abuse as multiaccounting, since one persone can control a complete faction with it. this gives you a huge advantage since you are not dependent on players activity at all.

Lets just make an example with mercs&deserters for this:
Mercs have 95 members in crpg, deserters 52.
Our strat faction (apostates) has 75 members, less than mercs alone.
If we would go like vendetta,go, etc we would have 147 players in strat, each key used by another person, so they are actually no multiaccounts but, in your words, "just" shared accounts, which in fact would, thats only a rough guess, increase our productivity on strat by about 200-300%

Same goes for Nords and every other faction, you also would nearly double the amount of players in strat and moreover increase your productivity since several persons can access all accounts 24/7
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 05, 2012, 10:01:59 pm
When i got to know this we tested it alittle. We the Mercs dont really use it at all. but last days now i had to use firefox due to some shit with cRPG page. And i used it but only see myself becouse rearly is another mercs inside that program.

Anyway after talking with Kinngrim to test this i contacted the DEVS; here is the chat`s

15:33] <Gingerpussy> Hey i am writing this to be sure we dont do anything that is not good in Strategus. Kinngrim introduced us to a web site that u can see your fellow clan mates on the strategus page. Just want to know if its ilegal or not.
[15:34] <Meow> don't think there was a decision on that yet, he hit us with that as well don't think anyone said it wasn't ok to use
[15:34] <Meow> but last time third party websites were involved account hacks happened so use at your own risk
[15:34] <Gingerpussy> okey i have registerd and tryed it 1 time
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> will not use before i get a go
[15:35] <Meow> never got why he didn't just ask harald to add it into strat
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> well kinngrim told me Harald says its okey to use and that chadz knows about it
[15:35] <Gingerpussy> and yeah i agree about all using it
[15:35] <Meow> then you should be fine using it :D
[15:36] <Gingerpussy> well i harald word good , dont wanna get banned
[15:36] <Gingerpussy> is
[15:38] <Meow> yeah harald's word is good on that
[15:38] <Gingerpussy> okey thank you


[15:44] <Gingerpussy> Hey Harald. Kinngrim told me that you says its okey to use and test  http://strat-viewer.guiennet.com , just wann amkake sure
[15:45] <Harald> yes, guess it's fine - i had only a quick look though
[15:46] <Gingerpussy> okey, i hope you implement it for all so we dont have to use a third party add on
[15:46] <Gingerpussy> thats the risk as i see it
[15:46] <Harald> yes, i would love to continue working on strat v2, but i'm so busy in RL currently
[15:47] <Gingerpussy> ahh to bad :(



As you all can read i second the thought of all getting this. And while we are at it i say that mr Kinngrim set up a open beta and give out some keys for those who want to test it before they make the own decisions.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Idzo on December 05, 2012, 10:18:04 pm
Pe Nis


Thovy you are programer, why you didn't made something like that for Nords? Why you didn't tell devs about that program and asked for bans, i can see you use it too? And after all talking so much bullshit when you seen effect of program. Shame mate, shame.. I'm disappointed a lil bit..
 
Zlisch and rest of you commenting something that you didn't experienced, used or having any information about it... Good job guys!

Only thing about this program is that you don't need to upload pictures on net, everything else you can find under faction tab.




Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Rogue on December 05, 2012, 10:19:54 pm
Quote
Overall it's actually not that useful. You don't get 24/7 surveillance from all the connected players they need to be online and active on Strat, clicking things. You could get the same and more information talking to the people who are currently online and active anyway.

Oh and it does not let you "track" enemy movements.

Don't even try to compare that with UIF multi accounting. It's nowhere close to that. 20 multi accounts in Union in Strat 3 already, nice to know. Why am I not surprised?  :lol:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 05, 2012, 10:21:15 pm
There's a huge difference in actual people sharing screenshots a few times a week and having an large parts automated tool do it for you in a fashionable manner.

I've also heard that this tool allows people to track enemy movement. Lol.

IMHO the worst kinds of cheating in Strategus is DUPING of any kind, which plenty have not been banned for. It offsets the whole balance of the round.
1 person having multiple accounts and using them in Strategus is also the worst kind of cheating, please DIAF :wink:
Sharing your account login is against the rules, which means you get banned obviously, fair and square, but it certainly isn't as serious a cheat as duping or the other type of multi-accounting, not even close, it completely depends on the use. This is also what many have been banned for, people who've never done anything wrong in the mod, who played 24/7 on the normal servers but unfortunately shared their login to their clan leader or who ever so that he could move them around a couple of evenings they weren't home. It is still a DUH! thing to be banned for though. (I don't support sharing of course nor have Nords ever done it).

The real problem is that loads of people are smart enough to hide their cheating well and it is essentially quite an effort to stop the various forms of cheating going on  -- in almost all games I'd presume.

However, this tool, is clearly in the cheating category, it gives an enormous edge over those factions which do not use it. In terms of usability (how much of a 'help' it would be) I would rank it together with multi accounting = worst kind of cheating.

FOG OF WAR gentlemen.

A gentleman and a scholar sir!  I'd +2 if I could.

People complain about micromanagement, but they've made it pretty "faction" friendly in strat 4.  You can see any fief's information from anywhere on the map (which I think is really dumb in a strategy game, you should need to have someone scout a fief to see what's going on, IMO), you no longer craft goods or weapons, and everything can be bought in a fief.

Being able to see everything your member's see is a HUGE advantage.  A leader could have the AFK's in the faction all over the map and see what's going on without ever leaving their corner of the map.  They would know exactly where to attack or reinforce without ever having to talk to anyone.

If that tool gets implemented into Strat that will be the final nail in the coffin of me being active in strat.  I'll still fight in large strat battles, but I would no longer care what happened with our faction or anyone elses.

If your bane is "micromanagement"  (i.e. having one of your grunts telling you what they see) then maybe a multiplayer strategy that involves delegating tasks isn't for you.

Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: DaveUKR on December 05, 2012, 10:51:51 pm
You mentioned AFKer on a mountain, hey look I see DaveUKR over on that mountain, didn't he quit?!

Oh right!

Hello, dear Tougheggs the conspiracy belieber.
Well. Just to make some things clear. I think that what you guys have here in this thread is just a huge misunderstanding and a rage spreading without knowing a situation (well, which can be actually seen in people who lack intelligence but that's not the case I hope).

I used to try this tool when Mercs had like 4 members there in the faction. Just a couple of facts about that tool:

1) It doesn't use your c-rpg login data (there was actually a warning to use different login and password than in crpg)
2) It doesn't give you any control of those who use it - you can't neither move anyone nor do any other actions
3) It doesn't give you real-time information on the map. When you log in and stay in strat in your browser and this tool - it posts what you see each 10 minutes. Once you log out and stay AFK - the data doesn't get updated and each blob, which is taken from tool users is marked (Transparency - older the info, more transparent the blob is; Date of info - there is a date of info with certain time when the info was taken from the member). So you can't just put afk players somewhere and see what they see in real time. That's why Mercs never could see what I see from the mountain as I don't log in.
4) That tool uses GreaseMonkey module for Firefox (like Strat Eye-candy used and such-like mods) and I don't like it (GreaseMonkey) personally as it has security issues and also lowers your browser's performance so I stopped using this tool way before I stopped playing


Basicly, that tool is nothing more than if a player just made a screenshot and uploaded it somewhere. Would you call it cheating? I doubt, that's why devs (Harald at least) said that it's okay to use it. Also that tool had some problems like blobs didn't appear sometimes plus it's utterly useless if not the whole faction uses it so by that moment I didn't see any potential in it as it was in closed test.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Niemand on December 05, 2012, 10:55:10 pm
I kinda wrote the same things DaveUKR did, but with other words... he just sent it faster. :D
If you still want to read it:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: DaveUKR on December 05, 2012, 11:12:17 pm
I kinda wrote the same things DaveUKR did, but with other words... he just sent it faster. :D
If you still want to read it:
(click to show/hide)

Yeah, I actually laughed at Nessaj's (Cooties) post. I've just seen a Thovex's screenshot of that tool with number of members. Mercs still have 6 there (1 of them is me and I didn't log in there for like month I think) and it can be clearly seen that these people are just testing groups. What amazes me is that people are getting dumb with Strategus and they don't even see how they become worse and worse each moment.

Accusing people in cheating just because you WANT to believe that others are cheating is a good sign that you should change something in your brain (at least grow it if you don't have it). I got manually banned for using the autoblock hack (at least some admins thought so) by the mistake ages ago just because I was on my alt. After that I got checked by cmp and he unbanned me but people who vouched for banning my alt kept believing that I'm actually an autoblock user. Like if all autoblock users let admins duel him on EU_3 one by one without saying anything. That's just one of those examples in crpg how people can be fooled by something they want to believe in. Mostly it's just because it's way harder to believe in that someone is better than in that he's cheating.

Stop taking this Strat too serious and quit these dogfights. When you start hating your enemies - you can't win because your enemy is stuck in your head and you have to beat your head in the end.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on December 05, 2012, 11:14:35 pm
Well Dave, Harald's opinion is wrong.  It's a lot more than "The same as if someone took a screenshot and sent it to you", because that bit requires a tiny bit of communication.  The whole point of strategus is that multiple people do things combined to create something for the larger good (of the faction, bandit force, or two buddies, etc). 

If one person was able to gather that much information without ever speaking to anyone, it would be a huge advantage.

You would then effectively only need 1 person active in strategus at any given time (like overnight) if an enemy starts marching you can just give your faction member a call and tell them to "move their guy" or attack, or whatever.

I think this is a pretty large issue (not as bad as multi-accounting) and would be awesome if people stopped using to gain an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Osiris on December 05, 2012, 11:19:25 pm
people get too worked up over strat :P. Multi accounting, duping and/or using third party programs to make it easier are all pretty shitty things to do.

Play the game how it was designed and if you think something can be improved please do suggest it. This third party program might be a good idea who knows (i personally think not) but the way to go about it is to ask chadz to allow beta testing not share it with your alliance and no one else.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: DaveUKR on December 05, 2012, 11:20:33 pm
Well Dave, Harald's opinion is wrong.  It's a lot more than "The same as if someone took a screenshot and sent it to you", because that bit requires a tiny bit of communication.  The whole point of strategus is that multiple people do things combined to create something for the larger good (of the faction, bandit force, or two buddies, etc). 

If one person was able to gather that much information without ever speaking to anyone, it would be a huge advantage.

You would then effectively only need 1 person active in strategus at any given time (like overnight) if an enemy starts marching you can just give your faction member a call and tell them to "move their guy" or attack, or whatever.

I think this is a pretty large issue (not as bad as multi-accounting) and would be awesome if people stopped using to gain an unfair advantage.

You either didn't read or didn't get what 2 people wrote above your post. You can't get real-time info and once you close your Strategus tab in the browser - your info stops being uploaded to the server so others see only what you could see by the moment when you closed your Strategus page. So when your faction sleeps - their eyes are closed for everyone even with this tool.

This third party program might be a good idea who knows (i personally think not) but the way to go about it is to ask chadz to allow beta testing not share it with your alliance and no one else.

Like they did. They asked Harald, he looked in it and he let them using it.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 05, 2012, 11:41:13 pm
You either didn't read or didn't get what 2 people wrote above your post. You can't get real-time info and once you close your Strategus tab in the browser - your info stops being uploaded to the server so others see only what you could see by the moment when you closed your Strategus page. So when your faction sleeps - their eyes are closed for everyone even with this tool.

SO....just leave it open? It's not that hard.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Rogue on December 06, 2012, 12:41:15 am
Quote
they need to be online and active on Strat, clicking things
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 12:44:20 am

Quote
they need to be online and active on Strat, clicking things
So basically this system does require both people to be online at the same time [For real-time updates], just removes the need for a clunk "Take a screenshot and upload it to a image share and then paste me the link and I'll see it whenever" and instead requires "Click this button and I'll see it whenever."


Oh... So... Gamebreaking... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: 


Where are my torches and pitchforks, this is practically multi-accounting! How could an Overlord possibly okay this terrible cheater mechanism!?
(click to show/hide)


Most people who are yelling about this program don't have a clue how it works and are merely pursuing an agenda where they want to tar-and-feather first and ask questions later.


#StrategusIsSeriousBusiness


I also like how a lot of people are assuming so much behind the motives of the people who "okayed" this and think they are supporting cheating despite said accusers not understanding how this program works.

Fine example of Mob Mentality
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tomas on December 06, 2012, 12:55:34 am
You would then effectively only need 1 person active in strategus at any given time (like overnight) if an enemy starts marching you can just give your faction member a call and tell them to "move their guy" or attack, or whatever.

If I tried ringing Fallens in the middle of the night to react to Strat I would soon have no Fallens left.  On the other hand if i knew of a clan that was that sad I would constantly march naked armies up to their lands to piss them off :D

And now I wish to tell my side of this since Thovex has brought my involvement to light

I was sent the program and asked to look at it before anybody except Kinngrimm and its creator had it.  Kinngrimm wanted me to show chadz, check if it was allowed and also check if chadz would want to incorporate something like it into strat.  I passed it to Harald and chadz, who had a look and whilst chadz is still undecided on whether he likes the principle behind it, he did not disallow its use.  I believe Harald likes it and so at the time and until chadz makes a decision, use of this tool was allowed. I showed it to Rogue, forgot about it for a while and then a week or 2 later we gave it a proper test before discarding it for the time being due to its limited usefulness.  Less than 3 weeks later Nords were given access to it.

I am extremely sorry that for nearly 3 weeks I was able to see a few extra blobs on the map from the line of sight of between 1 and 7 other people.  Not only was I able to see how many troops these blobs had, but i was also able to randomly guess at their equipment level and number of crates.  I wish my level of debauchery had stopped there though.  Perhaps if I had my soul might have been saved, but instead I gleefully chose to stare and plan my actions based on the 4 hour old images of enemy armies on my map.  Using this info I happily celebrated the absence of the player who had spotted them, indulging my love of incomplete information and glorying in my ability to plan the downfall of each blob once my clan member showed up again at some unknown point in the next 1 to 48 hours.  My enemies never knew what hit them and to my eternal shame I was unstoppable.

My biggest regret is that my crimes went so far beyond those of simple multi-accounting.  You are wrong when you say that the use of this tool is just as bad.  It is in fact much worse.  Had I just been a naive multi-accounter then I would have checked my 10 or so accounts, spotted that one enemy was unarmed whilst another was a full army with 1000 crates.  There would have been no joy as I selected my closest account and moved in to lock my enemy straight away and no build up of anticipation as i selected a bigger army to go and reinforce.  Instead of hours of edge of the seat, thrill seeking pleasure and delightful anxiety it would have all been over in mere minutes, robbing me of hours of entertainment.  Oh how I wish now that I had resisted temptation and stayed on the righteous path shown to us by the now martyred Union (may they achieve the saint-hood they so clearly deserve).

But now thanks to the wondrous intervention of my new saviour I am saved.  The all-wise and benevolent Thovex has shown me the light and never again shall I sit waiting for 5 hours for the right clan member to show up, certain in my unfounded belief that my enemy has at least 100000000000 crates to steal.  I know that all joy from such acts is only fleeting and that the only true path is that of cold, ruthless, multi-accounting efficiency. 

Thank you Thovex for showing me the error of my ways.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on December 06, 2012, 12:56:51 am

chadz listens to this person about Strategus.

Makes you think~
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 12:59:46 am
chadz listens to this person about Strategus.

Makes you think~


Watch out Thomas, you just had your character being questioned by someone who has been repeatedly permabanned and has sold looms for RL cash, created the Hellowrold database incident and many other wonderful things.


Shit just got real.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tomas on December 06, 2012, 01:10:46 am

Watch out Thomas, you just had your character being questioned by someone who has been repeatedly permabanned and has sold looms for RL cash, created the Hellowrold database incident and many other wonderful things.


Shit just got real.

Don't forget "awesome speed reader".  To read 645 words and reply in just over a minute is truly a sign of a higher power amongst us.  I must now confess to sinking to new depths in the realm of cheating.  I used that despicable and unforgivable cheat program called "wo*d c**nt".  See it is so bad that it can't even be uttered in polite company.

I must go now and cry myself to sleep yet again as I attempt to live with myself as a human being
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: BADPLAYER_old2 on December 06, 2012, 01:23:29 am

Watch out Thomas, you just had your character being questioned by someone who has been repeatedly permabanned and has sold looms for RL cash, created the Hellowrold database incident and many other wonderful things.


Shit just got real.

I'm talking less about morality and character and more his opinions on game mechanics, obvious clan bias and ect which are frankly terrible.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Thovex on December 06, 2012, 01:45:23 am
If I tried ringing Fallens in the middle of the night to react to Strat I would soon have no Fallens left.  On the other hand if i knew of a clan that was that sad I would constantly march naked armies up to their lands to piss them off :D

And now I wish to tell my side of this since Thovex has brought my involvement to light

I was sent the program and asked to look at it before anybody except Kinngrimm and its creator had it.  Kinngrimm wanted me to show chadz, check if it was allowed and also check if chadz would want to incorporate something like it into strat.  I passed it to Harald and chadz, who had a look and whilst chadz is still undecided on whether he likes the principle behind it, he did not disallow its use.  I believe Harald likes it and so at the time and until chadz makes a decision, use of this tool was allowed. I showed it to Rogue, forgot about it for a while and then a week or 2 later we gave it a proper test before discarding it for the time being due to its limited usefulness.  Less than 3 weeks later Nords were given access to it.

I am extremely sorry that for nearly 3 weeks I was able to see a few extra blobs on the map from the line of sight of between 1 and 7 other people.  Not only was I able to see how many troops these blobs had, but i was also able to randomly guess at their equipment level and number of crates.  I wish my level of debauchery had stopped there though.  Perhaps if I had my soul might have been saved, but instead I gleefully chose to stare and plan my actions based on the 4 hour old images of enemy armies on my map.  Using this info I happily celebrated the absence of the player who had spotted them, indulging my love of incomplete information and glorying in my ability to plan the downfall of each blob once my clan member showed up again at some unknown point in the next 1 to 48 hours.  My enemies never knew what hit them and to my eternal shame I was unstoppable.

My biggest regret is that my crimes went so far beyond those of simple multi-accounting.  You are wrong when you say that the use of this tool is just as bad.  It is in fact much worse.  Had I just been a naive multi-accounter then I would have checked my 10 or so accounts, spotted that one enemy was unarmed whilst another was a full army with 1000 crates.  There would have been no joy as I selected my closest account and moved in to lock my enemy straight away and no build up of anticipation as i selected a bigger army to go and reinforce.  Instead of hours of edge of the seat, thrill seeking pleasure and delightful anxiety it would have all been over in mere minutes, robbing me of hours of entertainment.  Oh how I wish now that I had resisted temptation and stayed on the righteous path shown to us by the now martyred Union (may they achieve the saint-hood they so clearly deserve).

But now thanks to the wondrous intervention of my new saviour I am saved.  The all-wise and benevolent Thovex has shown me the light and never again shall I sit waiting for 5 hours for the right clan member to show up, certain in my unfounded belief that my enemy has at least 100000000000 crates to steal.  I know that all joy from such acts is only fleeting and that the only true path is that of cold, ruthless, multi-accounting efficiency. 

Thank you Thovex for showing me the error of my ways.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


If I tried ringing Fallens in the middle of the night to react to Strat I would soon have no Fallens left.  On the other hand if i knew of a clan that was that sad I would constantly march naked armies up to their lands to piss them off :D

Please spread your wonderful tool with the world of Calradia, people are suffering from restless hours and waking people up!

I should win an award for making people write entire essays within few hours over the internet.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 02:30:13 am
SO....just leave it open? It's not that hard.

This is a legitimate concern about the program. Easy solution though: Instead of the program automatically forwarding the information from an open browser to the leaders every ten minutes, require that the player must press a button within the program to transmit the information. Doing things automatically starts becoming questionable.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: MarktpLatz on December 06, 2012, 02:35:37 am
As it was stated several times before: You have to be active in strat to submit this stuff... leaving the tab open won´t help in any way :P
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Malaclypse on December 06, 2012, 03:20:13 am
Wow, here I am taking screenshots like a chump.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Butan on December 06, 2012, 03:31:14 am
It is cheating if its not global.

Implement this to STRATEGUS!  :)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 04:18:18 am
As it was stated several times before: You have to be active in strat to submit this stuff... leaving the tab open won´t help in any way :P

You have to be active in strat for it to work? You mean active in strat or cRPG? cause being active in strat means that you have to be moving at all times, which is not something that people who are active in a clan or TS are doing at all times. Basically, whoever actually has knowledge of the program needs to explain what constitutes being "Active In Strat" according the the program and the automatic transmission of info.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 04:29:44 am
You have to be active in strat for it to work? You mean active in strat or cRPG? cause being active in strat means that you have to be moving at all times, which is not something that people who are active in a clan or TS are doing at all times. Basically, whoever actually has knowledge of the program needs to explain what constitutes being "Active In Strat" according the the program and the automatic transmission of info.


You have to have the Strategus browser open and start clicking shit in it.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 04:35:59 am
well that seems tedious. Much simpler method would be to have a "Report Info" button within the program. Maybe even a time-delay for the information to get to clan leaders depending on the player's distance from those leaders.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 04:38:04 am
well that seems tedious. Much simpler method would be to have a "Report Info" button within the program. Maybe even a time-delay for the information to get to clan leaders depending on the player's distance from those leaders.


So now you are complaining that this program is not actually cheating and is too tedious?! Also, a time delay would be utterly pointless as this is not real time anyways as it only updates when the player is updating. This program basically eliminates the need to upload pictures to a clan forum, and simply uploads them directly to the nutjob clanners directly (saving a dozen or two seconds to upload to a forum as well as auto-consolidating and thus eliminating the need to sticky a super-secret forum post with all the images), it is not meant to be super streamlined or all-powerful controlling or involve unfair real-time 24/7 shenanigans.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 04:49:21 am

So now you are complaining that this program is not actually cheating and is too tedious?! Also, a time delay would be utterly pointless as this is not real time anyways as it only updates when the player is updating.

Uhhh, no I never said it is cheating, all I am saying is if you require a player to be clicking shit in strat for the Auto-transmission to occur, why not have a button within the program to make that transmission happen? This would improve clan communications and make a player feel more engaged, as if they are actually accomplishing a clan mission.

The time delay would not be pointless. Its point is to make strat and the program more realistic. A scout marching ahead of an army would have to ride all the way back to their leaders to make a report, or send a bird with a scroll.

I'm trying to make suggestions on how this could be implemented and improved, not complaining about it at all.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 06:09:58 am
statement (http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/anti-uif-troop-collection-competition-(eu-dhirim-area)/msg670006/#msg670006)

This is a legitimate concern about the program. Easy solution though: Instead of the program automatically forwarding the information from an open browser to the leaders every ten minutes, require that the player must press a button within the program to transmit the information. Doing things automatically starts becoming questionable.
well that seems tedious. Much simpler method would be to have a "Report Info" button within the program. Maybe even a time-delay for the information to get to clan leaders depending on the player's distance from those leaders.
The 10 min timespan was in the beginnig done as i was told it would prevent DDoS attacks. It has been reduced recently to 3min transfer lately, after the database libaries had been changed as we experienced a lot of lags.

ATM you need to be logged in that these trasnfers happen, but we already also discussed a button which would then resolve of the datatransfer. This is in the end a dession which needs to be done by chadz when/if he choses to implement our sources. My goal atm is less micro management while not neglecting game balance. As also in statement above said. This is pre alpha version and there will change still a lot of things. Feel free to PM me with suggestions and bug reports AFTER you have tested the tool and i will coordinate the improvements. Clan leaders who are intrested in using this tool please PM me and we can set up a teamspeak meeting where i can introduce you to the basic functions so far implemented and would also give you several keys for registration.

The automatic update for firefox doesn't work quite yet, so those players who use firefox need to update with every new version -_- over half of my players have outdated versions and therefor they are atm not sharing their LoS ^^
Over the next days i will create a forum thread, where i would maintain the current status, version and mechanics of the Strat-Viewer.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 08:41:39 am
So if it's not an advantage, why was this third party software not made public before? Or is it an advantage? Even the slightest? Sure seems like it is.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 08:50:28 am
it is an advantage. Isn't that the whole point of this game? do get an advantage over other players? the question here is not whether or not this is an advantage, it is whether or not it is honorable within the context of the game.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 08:57:18 am
Vibe, Farrix i don't care for both questions, i want improvements seen implemented and overall changes in the game experience. The amount of micromanagement is mindbuggling, the amount of bordom some players take out of strategus is without equal, still we all see the big potentials of the game. In german we say "Es gibt nix gutes ausser du tust es", roughly translated, if you don't do something good nothing good happens. If this now is the way in the end we will have to see.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 09:01:11 am
So what you're saying is, you dirty penis licker, is that you knew it was a third party software that gives you advantage, but you kept it to yourself and to your allies? And you're making it public now, because Thovex exposed it anyway?

But you don't care because ohhh noooo strat is fuckloads of micromanagement and then it's ok for you to use this.

How can one NOT view this as cheating?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Farrix on December 06, 2012, 09:11:34 am
human nature buddy...when the USA developed the atom bomb, they didn't call up the japs to share the info now did they? The knowledge spread to the benefit (or curse?) of the rest of the world, but not until they used it to win their war. Did they cheat? was it dishonorable to keep that information? I think it may have been napolean...but someone said something along the lines of," A fair fight, is a poor fight." Now that doesn't mean cheating is ok, it means that no smart clan leader should fight a fair fight in strategus within the confines of the game mechanics. Thats the real question: is this acceptable within the provided mechanics of the game?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 09:14:19 am
Now that doesn't mean cheating is ok, it means that no smart clan leader should fight a fair fight in strategus within the confines of the game mechanics. Thats the real question: is this acceptable within the provided mechanics of the game?

Third party software is not mechanics provided by the game itself, thus cheating.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 09:15:13 am
So what you're saying is, you dirty penis licker, is that you knew it was a third party software that gives you advantage, but you kept it to yourself and to your allies? And you're making it public now, because Thovex exposed it anyway?

But you don't care because ohhh noooo strat is fuckloads of micromanagement and then it's ok for you to use this.

How can one NOT view this as cheating?
you ahve always been one of my favourits Vibe, structuring the truth or what you think of it to your liking.

As mentionend before, this has been made known to devs a long time ago.
It has been shared ^^ first only within Wolves then within alliance then within eastern block , then with friendly factions which i didn't see as cheaters, now with everyone.
If you want to imply evil intent in a small minded paranoid way, well that is your brain anorisma not mine.

About the sharing part, this is majorly developed by one single person, who does this in his spare time between work, studies and playing crpg. All people included were informed that it should made public in the end, but i wanted first to have the Diplomatic System ready, which is not yet quite the case, Guika is working his ass of for that since about a month now and when that is done perhaps then you can grant goodwill for the work of others which you and the community can you know just use for free.

On the other hand i could have kept it just for the Wolves and noone perhaps would have ever found out. Have you any clue about how greasmonkey works? I am a programmer and i know what is possible, that but doesn't make me do everything what is possible. You could do so much more with it. Perhaps there is only one wolves controlling everyone using this tool now  :twisted: but i am pretty sure i wouldn't make it very long here in cRPG anymore.

And btw way i hate you just for making me to answer to your crap Vibe.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 09:20:05 am
All people included were informed that it should made public in the end

lmao, so win strat first then share, yep not cheating, I am sorry I was wrong
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 09:29:51 am
lmao, so win strat first then share, yep not cheating, I am sorry I was wrong
*sigh* how long is strategus now here with us? 2+ years. How long do you think strat 2.0 is already ready to go (more or less)? How long do you think others have already done similar things which they didn't share? How many changes had been done and changed again in all that time? Why are you so mad about something where the sources are open, the devs and admins knew about, only you weren't able to test it for a while?

Within the first 1 to 1 1/2 months of the development you couldn't see jack shit with the addon. Still the automatic updates for firefox doesn't work, so most people have outdated versions which are not compatible with the current database. If you would care to test this first before you just give us your ramdom thoughts i could concider taking you serrious, but you aren't even in the system yet so get a key from your faction leader and test it.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 09:41:25 am
*sigh* how long is strategus now here with us? 2+ years. How long do you think strat 2.0 is already ready to go (more or less)? How long do you think others have already done similar things which they didn't share? How many changes had been done and changed again in all that time? Why are you so mad about something where the sources are open, the devs and admins knew about, only you weren't able to test it for a while?

Within the first 1 to 1 1/2 months of the development you couldn't see jack shit with the addon. Still the automatic updates for firefox doesn't work, so most people have outdated versions which are not compatible with the current database. If you would care to test this first before you just give us your ramdom thoughts i could concider taking you serrious, but you aren't even in the system yet so get a key from your faction leader and test it.

First off, because others supposedly did it, it makes it ok for you to do it as well? As far as I know, revenge TK is bannable as well.

I'm not mad, I'm just accusing you of cheating, because you used a third party software that provided you with an advantage over your enemies, while you didn't provide this to everyone else as well. So you did have an advantage (even if a slight one) over those who didn't (supposedly) have such software, by using third party shit. Even if by some fucking weird miracle not condemned by the devs.

But you so conveniently made it public now that it was exposed anyway and 3/4 of the UIF quit strat.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 10:06:26 am
First of, if you always compare apples with oranges then your math is off.
Secondly i offered that tool to Nords, like 2 weeks ago and also stated then to them that i was including more and more factions into it, also enemies. Did i loose track of that, sure. Evil intent no.
Thirdly accuse me of whatever you want and believe whatever you want with your supperior morality, i was open about this tool and i am offering a service and i have taken in two more factions and i expect more over the next days and weeks. Did you use eyecandy script? How many of the palyers don't regularly use this forum and mist out on the eyecandy script? Wouldn't that make it a cheat too according to your logic? Now it is part of strategus.

Conveniently it is not, as i would have preferred if i would have had more time to provide a better product, but what do you think i should have done instead after Thovex starting to whine? Just keep silent about it and get even more shit postings, no i choose to clarify and inform and get into discussions like this here, nothing i really enjoy too much, i have better things to do.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 10:12:03 am
First of, if you always compare apples with oranges then your math is off.
Secondly i offered that tool to Nords, like 2 weeks ago and also stated then to them that i was including more and more factions into it, also enemies. Did i loose track of that, sure. Evil intent no.
Thirdly accuse me of whatever you want and believe whatever you want with your supperior morality, i was open about this tool and i am offering a service and i have taken in two more factions and i expect more over the next days and weeks. Did you use eyecandy script? How many of the palyers don't regularly use this forum and mist out on the eyecandy script? Wouldn't that make it a cheat too according to your logic? Now it is part of strategus.

Conveniently it is not, as i would have preferred if i would have had more time to provide a better product, but what do you think i should have done instead after Thovex starting to whine? Just keep silent about it and get even more shit postings, no i choose to clarify and inform and get into discussions like this here, nothing i really enjoy too much, i have better things to do.

Eyecandy script was made public to everyone. I didn't see a single announcement for your shit on the cRPG forums. Not a word said. Only a select few knew about it. You were open about this tool? Good excuse. Offering it to one enemy clan and to a shitload of your allies.

Yes, you were very open.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 10:28:05 am
...
Yes, you were very open.
chadz, Meow, Thomas & Harald were informed.
While there are different opinions about it, i got the go to continue for the development.
Now it is like 3 months since we started, 2 months since admins/devs were informed and then 2 weeks ago Nords as first enemy faction whereby i gave my word to them and others that i will include more evenly others factions too over time and in the end it would be made public for all... now it was made public not by me but by Thovex(Okin 2) who informed you and used it to paint a different picture. Outcome, several people think of conspiracies, others are already asking for keys and liking the concepts and idears, so the development will continue.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Thovex on December 06, 2012, 10:37:37 am
Thanks for taking the initiative to make it public in the first place. :lol:
...cough...

But now, thank you for actually making it public for real.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 11:04:31 am
Third party software is not mechanics provided by the game itself, thus cheating.


Get out of TeamSpeak then, it is third party and probably the most advantageous piece of third-party software you could ever use for this game.  :wink:


EDIT:
Yes yes I get what you are trying to say shaddup Iwuzmakin a jokk
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Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 11:10:08 am

Get out of TeamSpeak then, it is third party and probably the most advantageous piece of third-party software you could ever use for this game.  :wink:

And everyone knows about it and is free to use it. This thing was kept private. Dumb logic right here, either way.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 06, 2012, 11:12:43 am
And everyone knows about it and is free to use it. This thing was kept private. Dumb logic right here, either way.


I should have added more winky faces, psh psh psh
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Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Falka on December 06, 2012, 11:13:43 am
Cheating or No?

Pff, simple.

until chadz makes a decision, use of this tool was allowed.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 06, 2012, 11:38:41 am
I thin Noc says it very good in a thread he wasnt supposed to post in but il copy paste it here:

Quote
Here summary of Thovex :

Cries about prime times, but when other clans were getting gangbanged at xmas he cheers for UIF
Benefits from cheaters in two rounds, then accuses others by cheating for beta testing with the approval of admins
Calls people pricks for not giving peace time, act like a prick when he was offered peace at very start
Tells people to suck leaders dick, while he couldn't run three fiefs and joined another clan under someone else's leadership

1. The devs Admins and chadz himself didnt call this cheat-
2. We know for a fact that scripts have been used by Union and DRZ while we where more or less friendly with them ( they sent us buy scripts and so on basically a third party program as well)
3. nords got invited, they dropping the BOMB on my thread because they felt my thread was a threat.

Clearly anyone can see that this was not a attempt to cheat or get a advantage but test out something that all might be using.
The Greys quiting due to this is so ludicrous that i cant stop rolling on the floor laughing my throat dry.

the Nords using this as a exit as well.


When we all know this is due to there trade is STOPED in strat with our (Hre Peace Mercs Deserters) 17000 men troops walking into occiatan and bashi territory's.


Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tomas on December 06, 2012, 11:44:29 am
And everyone knows about it and is free to use it. This thing was kept private. Dumb logic right here, either way.

All this witch hunt is doing imo is potentially putting Guika off from doing any further work on a program that was always intended for the Devs to add to cRPG for everybody.  Not to mention putting others off from creating things like this. 

If this had been in existence for a year with no further work being carried out, only Wolves and their allies with access and no Dev knowledge of it then i could understand people being unhappy. 

But in reality it has been around for just over a month, was passed to the devs within a few days of being created, is still unfinished with various bits that do nothing, has been shared with an enemy clan of the Wolves for the last 2 weeks and has had little to no uptake in the clans that were given access due to its limited usefulness and the potential security issues of using greasemonkey.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 11:51:15 am
Then again there was no reason to not mention it to the public and make this whole matter a bit less suspicious. Even if approved by devs, I use my own eyes to look on things. This thing gives you an advantage. Doesn't matter small or great advantage, it's still an advantage. Doesn't matter how long it has been in use, every day or week counts in Strategus. Fact is you (or rather, the Wolves) kept it silent to others.

Also if it was only intended for the devs as of now, why is it shared almost exclusively amongst eastern UIF ?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dodnet on December 06, 2012, 11:58:10 am
Eyecandy script was made public to everyone. I didn't see a single announcement for your shit on the cRPG forums. Not a word said. Only a select few knew about it. You were open about this tool? Good excuse. Offering it to one enemy clan and to a shitload of your allies.

I made my script public after using (and improving) it several times. So I used it before anyone else was using it. I admit as a cheater now too  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 12:00:13 pm
I made my script public after using (and improving) it several times. So I used it before anyone else was using it. I admit as a cheater now too  :rolleyes:

Was it shared to all your allies before everyone else though? Of course the developer is going to see it before everyone else. Let's not be dumb here. Not to mention the eye candy thing is mostly visuals and not a direct advantage to your entire faction.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Haboe on December 06, 2012, 12:05:11 pm
Then again there was no reason to not mention it to the public and make this whole matter a bit less suspicious. Even if approved by devs, I use my own eyes to look on things. This thing gives you an advantage. Doesn't matter small or great advantage, it's still an advantage. Doesn't matter how long it has been in use, every day or week counts in Strategus. Fact is you (or rather, the Wolves) kept it silent to others.

Also if it was only intended for the devs as of now, why is it shared almost exclusively amongst eastern UIF ?

When you start a script you don't share it with everyone if its not even near working yet.. I haven't seen the thing myself yet, but it seems completely useless for the moment because it doesn't work yet. Nords also have acces to this i think, and devs gave it a go to continue developing it... If you remove the "i want drama part" for a moment, is there a problem here?

None of the factions has had an advantage of this tool before, no one has advantage of it right now (since it doesn't work yet), and its not limited to 1 alliance...
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 12:09:01 pm
When you start a script you don't share it with everyone if its not even near working yet.. I haven't seen the thing myself yet, but it seems completely useless for the moment because it doesn't work yet. Nords also have acces to this i think, and devs gave it a go to continue developing it... If you remove the "i want drama part" for a moment, is there a problem here?

None of the factions has had an advantage of this tool before, no one has advantage of it right now (since it doesn't work yet), and its not limited to 1 alliance...

Nobody said it doesn't work, only some parts don't work. For now it makes you see more than the game currently wants you to see. What I'm doing here is presenting my opinion on this nice little cheat thingy Wolves came up with, and scratching my head how was this not forced by the devs to be made public or at least more people invited from the other factions, while the eastern UIF abused it's "dev approved" status and used it almost exclusively by themselves.

PS amazed by the bias here, feels like the time I actually bothered arguing with UIF, except it's the other side this time, talking to walls here anyway
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Andswaru on December 06, 2012, 12:12:08 pm
Sure, i was only offered access to the "beta" after i informed kinngrim that uif were considering quitting, and since he's scared of his neighbours so much he started looking for new allies.
So before it was known that the UIF were quiting this was an exclusive anti uif tool.
Kinda funny how the holier than tho we do not need or use any form of cheating side, as per the advertising material i was given at the start of the round, was actually "cheating" also.

See you all next round.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tomas on December 06, 2012, 12:15:09 pm
Then again there was no reason to not mention it to the public and make this whole matter a bit less suspicious. Even if approved by devs, I use my own eyes to look on things. This thing gives you an advantage. Doesn't matter small or great advantage, it's still an advantage. Doesn't matter how long it has been in use, every day or week counts in Strategus. Fact is you (or rather, the Wolves) kept it silent to others.

Also if it was only intended for the devs as of now, why is it shared almost exclusively amongst eastern UIF ?

Perhaps Kinngrimm shared it with the clans he came across most often since he was after feedback?   If the aim was truly to gain an advantage then it wouldn't be "almost" exclusive to Eastern Bloc factions, it would be 100% exclusive to them.  We would also all be in the same faction with as many people as possible registered.

I'm not saying that Kinngrimm was right not to share it publicly, although I can understand his reluctance to share a program that even his own allies barely use.  But this witch hunt for him not publicly sharing it is in my opinion ridiculous.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 12:21:11 pm
Perhaps Kinngrimm shared it with the clans he came across most often since he was after feedback?   If the aim was truly to gain an advantage then it wouldn't be "almost" exclusive to Eastern Bloc factions, it would be 100% exclusive to them.  We would also all be in the same faction with as many people as possible registered.

I'm not saying that Kinngrimm was right not to share it publicly, although I can understand his reluctance to share a program that even his own allies barely use.  But this witch hunt for him not publicly sharing it is in my opinion ridiculous.

You don't need to share it, you can however announce it on forums that you're working and experimenting with such a thing. All this not done makes it look like you wanted to abuse it. Not to mention that apart from Nords (who were offered after they said they quit, read Andswaru's post up), it was 100% exclusive to eastern bloc.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Idzo on December 06, 2012, 12:28:04 pm
See you all next round.


PS amazed by the bias here, feels like the time I actually bothered arguing with UIF, except it's the other side this time, talking to walls here anyway

Drama Queens.

Dear chadz, Thank you for cRPG;
We have encountered many drama queens on forum;
Listen to my prays;
Help this evil ppl captured by darkness;
If you exist I know you will end this drama here once forever;
Post your reply and let us live in peace once again.
Amen.



You don't need to share it, you can however announce it on forums that you're working and experimenting with such a thing. All this not done makes it look like you wanted to abuse it. Not to mention that apart from Nords (who were offered after they said they quit, read Andswaru's post up), it was 100% exclusive to eastern bloc.


Ahahahhahahhhahaha
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Molly on December 06, 2012, 12:38:21 pm
I have nothing really that I wanna add to the topic...

Merely wanna say that I am fascinated by so many people still bothered  8-)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Niemand on December 06, 2012, 12:40:17 pm
Eyecandy script was made public to everyone. I didn't see a single announcement for your shit on the cRPG forums. Not a word said. Only a select few knew about it. You were open about this tool? Good excuse. Offering it to one enemy clan and to a shitload of your allies.

So you are flaming/raging/whining because you were not invited to the party-preparations? Poor vibe... you must really have no friends at all if that is important to you.

DUDE! Let them finish that thing before they make it public. I (and I am sure I am not alone) HATE it when dev-companies sell games/programs that are not nearly done. Instead they are pushing a 2GB patch in the first week after the release. And why? Just because morons like you are not able to wait a bit longer for the game to finish be cleanly done[edited].
This is why I do not make any deadlines in my projects. it takes as long as it takes. its ready when its ready. and it will be released when its ready. Until then: Shut tha fuck up.


Was it shared to all your allies before everyone else though? Of course the developer is going to see it before everyone else. Let's not be dumb here. Not to mention the eye candy thing is mostly visuals and not a direct advantage to your entire faction.
Shut it. Shure I trust my allies more then all the other jealous whiners out there.

And man. As much as you whine, I would ban you from that project, just to enjoy your whining and jealous raging for the rest of your life. :D


Vibe? You are NOT number one in this world.
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Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Molly on December 06, 2012, 12:44:17 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 06, 2012, 12:44:34 pm
Except I don't even play strat and am merely expressing my own opinion on this cheat thingy, so good point there on me "raging/whining" for not being invited to a third party for strat, lmfao :lol:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Molly on December 06, 2012, 12:46:56 pm
Except I don't even play strat and am merely expressing my own opinion on this cheat thingy, so good point there on me "raging/whining" for not being invited to a third party for strat, lmfao :lol:
Niemand is known for having issues with people having their own opinion...  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 01:00:06 pm
Then again there was no reason to not mention it to the public and make this whole matter a bit less suspicious.
yes there was, i wanted to give a nearly completted and usable tool out and not a half finished something

Also if it was only intended for the devs as of now, why is it shared almost exclusively amongst eastern UIF ?
when you are trying to accomplish something in work or in private life, you normaly have a group which supports you in one way or the other, people who help you accomplishing your idears if you can't do it all alone. This is here the case too. In the first month it was only Guika and me as tester. Then taking in more Wolves to see if it works with more people, then yes those i know closely from my alliance, but less for politcal reasons within strat, but i just knew those lads and we needed to see if different factions "as an option within the websites" works. Then admins and devs have been informed after being able to show a first alpha, then gradually other factions were included, again those i were closer to, due to different factors, it is just human nature as it works out everywhere.

Sure, i was only offered access to the "beta" after i informed kinngrim that uif were considering quitting, and since he's scared of his neighbours so much he started looking for new allies.
wow, and i really thought we got along while we chatted for like 2 hours in steam, didn't know you are that paranoid.
Btw you didn't inform me about quitting in the first place that was cooties, afterwards i started talking to you about the reasons and yes also to get you to stay, but i also told you i don't care if as enemy or neutral or whatever. I offered you a cease fire, which i would have discussed with Eastern Block if you would have been interested, wait actually i did discuss that with Rogue and i believe Tyr and they have said if you would be interested why not, they still had some respect left for Nords.

Andswaru, i mentioned to you how different it was how you approached me in steam and here, i really wonder why that is? Couldn't you tell me there your opinions, but needed to sugar code them?

The addon is still not complettly operational, you often need to scroll in and out or refresh so that the shared data is shown at all. As there had been many versions since start, from the around 20 guys in my faction only have like 4-5 the latest version installed, the others aren't compatible with the new data base interface, the automated update for firefox aint working yet, sometimes you see doubled spots of the same party and other not yet solved visual problems and other stuff on the website needs to be reworked, that but all stands atm in the background as Guika is implementing atm a Diplomatic & Contract System. Sure these things have influence onto the game experience and give different advantages, i never denied that, but till the final product isn't ready and you couldn't judge the whole system as it is supposed to be, i would ask for some patience and goodwill and perhaps in the end you could see the benefits which come out of it.

...All this not done makes it look like you wanted to abuse it.
exactly, thats why devs and admins had been informed about it and that is why there is a posssibility to create your own faction instead of jsut taking everyone into one faction  :rolleyes:

Not to mention that apart from Nords (who were offered after they said they quit, read Andswaru's post up), it was 100% exclusive to eastern bloc.
seeing connections where there aren't any are we again? conspiracy nuts with tin foil hats are surrounding us in the internetz that is my resume. Nords were offered this while they haven't yet decided onto leaving. This was given freely without them agreeing onto going into alliance with Wolves or wanting anything in return ...

Except I don't even play strat and am merely expressing my own opinion ...
:idea:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: chadz on December 06, 2012, 03:31:24 pm
First of all, I have not officially commented on this yet - on purpose. I wanted to keep it in a grey areay (no pun intended). Which means using it is not forbidden and will not be punished, but it could be "outlawed" eventually. The clear difference to multiaccounting here is that it has been stated multiple times that multiaccing/acc sharing is against the rules, and if you do it, you're fucked.

In general, I am usually open to client side customisations. Strategus (at least the map part) was created so it's very easy to read the data automatically. I could have encrypted or obfuscated it to make it really hard to decypher stuff, but decided against it because I actually like people modifying it - like Chort did, for example.

Is this thing an advantage? Hell yes it is. But having active players is also an advantage, that doesn't mean you have to give active players to the enemy. That's why I also see no real issue with not giving that program out. For me, a line would be crossed when it would automatically log into accounts, or do automated actions without actually having to be online (=botting).

My gut feeling is that this is very advanced, but at this point, is not against the rules, and I like it that people actually put so much effort into client side customisations. So in my opinion, it's ok (although I WILL nerf the view range on mountains)

However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

PS: this is no final decision yet, either way
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 06, 2012, 03:34:12 pm
To Andswaru and Thovex.

U guys are incredible. Im out of words. pathetic mogoloids

I have proof you guys used BUY SCRIPT in strat 2 and more (made by a russian clan we all know)
How is this a diffrence, ur arguing that all third party programs are cheats.

PS! i never trusted the buy script so i never used it. Or that other script for forming armys with excat nr of equip. 
The truth is that third party programs have been here from the start of strategus, And u NORD complaing that this was private HAHAHA

u never told anyone about those scripts. Hypocrits and morons the lot of u


Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 06, 2012, 03:43:39 pm
First of all, I have not officially commented on this yet - on purpose. I wanted to keep it in a grey areay (no pun intended). Which means using it is not forbidden and will not be punished, but it could be "outlawed" eventually. The clear difference to multiaccounting here is that it has been stated multiple times that multiaccing/acc sharing is against the rules, and if you do it, you're fucked.

In general, I am usually open to client side customisations. Strategus (at least the map part) was created so it's very easy to read the data automatically. I could have encrypted or obfuscated it to make it really hard to decypher stuff, but decided against it because I actually like people modifying it - like Chort did, for example.

Is this thing an advantage? Hell yes it is. But having active players is also an advantage, that doesn't mean you have to give active players to the enemy. That's why I also see no real issue with not giving that program out. For me, a line would be crossed when it would automatically log into accounts, or do automated actions without actually having to be online (=botting).

My gut feeling is that this is very advanced, but at this point, is not against the rules, and I like it that people actually put so much effort into client side customisations. So in my opinion, it's ok (although I WILL nerf the view range on mountains)

However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

PS: this is no final decision yet, either way
I find it hard to see how a program giving you an advantage should be allowed without it being publicized and freely allowed to anyone.
Anyway, Anders, can you please make a poll?
(click to show/hide)
BTW: Gingerpussy, everyone fucking knows you control your wife's account in strategus, you're a joke.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Thovex on December 06, 2012, 04:26:59 pm
To Andswaru and Thovex.

U guys are incredible. Im out of words. pathetic mogoloids

I have proof you guys used BUY SCRIPT in strat 2 and more (made by a russian clan we all know)
How is this a diffrence, ur arguing that all third party programs are cheats.

PS! i never trusted the buy script so i never used it. Or that other script for forming armys with excat nr of equip. 
The truth is that third party programs have been here from the start of strategus, And u NORD complaing that this was private HAHAHA

u never told anyone about those scripts. Hypocrits and morons the lot of u

If I knew I had a buyscript I wouldn't be using www.piratepad.net to manually write down what I need which took plenty of time.  :lol:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: chadz on December 06, 2012, 04:31:00 pm
I find it hard to see how a program giving you an advantage should be allowed without it being publicized and freely allowed to anyone.

It's just the way I see it. We all know the strategus website lacks many features, UI-wise. As far as I'm concerned you can write your own client for strategus, as long as it obeys certain rules (no automation of actions). I'm always thrilled to see what people come up with. For me, client side modding is perfectly fine.

Also, what's wrong with a buy script. What could possibly be wrong about making buying stuff easier?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 06, 2012, 04:35:27 pm
It's just the way I see it. We all know the strategus website lacks many features, UI-wise. As far as I'm concerned you can write your own client for strategus, as long as it obeys certain rules (no automation of actions). I'm always thrilled to see what people come up with. For me, client side modding is perfectly fine.
I agree that strategus mods to certain extents could be acceptable, but still, it'd only be acceptable if everyone were given an equal chance to use it, not just you and your allies.
If only wolves had used it to test and only the wolves I'd also have been fine with it, but they shared it, Eastern exclusive.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: aLef on December 06, 2012, 04:38:10 pm
Quote
However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

если бля да кабы...gona buy a lot of keys and tell u what to do...it's new way of desitions made?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 06, 2012, 04:39:58 pm
Adding Poll!

Tried to keep it unbiased! If you think it's to biased go ahead and say so and I'll try and word it properly.
(the options are based on what I've read people wish to have had done with software)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dynamike on December 06, 2012, 04:42:36 pm
I'd like to enjoy the advantages this community enhancement provides as well.

How do I get in on that?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: chadz on December 06, 2012, 04:45:01 pm
Adding Poll!

Tried to keep it unbiased! If you think it's to biased go ahead and say so and I'll try and word it properly.
(the options are based on what I've read people wish to have had done with software)

To be honest, I think the entire thread is biased already. Make a new thread imo.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 06, 2012, 04:55:41 pm
I could, but a new thread should be made by someone with more info. There's now far more info out there about this than when I started this thread. King should make a poll and explain the program. He's the main developer/leader/runner/w/e guy. So Perhaps he should make the poll.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 06, 2012, 04:57:05 pm
IMO some dev should post such a thread if it needs to be unbiased, I doubt kinngrimm would make it anymore fair than a grey would.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 06, 2012, 05:02:36 pm
I believe the main problem wasn't what the program did, in so much as to who had access. If maybe like 1/2 people were doing tests, then I'm very positive this program would never have been this blown out of proportion.

But when it shows a lot of factions using it(and from one side), the other side and non users go, "Hey, why are THEY the only ones testing/using it and not open testing beyond 4-5 people?"

And Just looking at the initial votes, you can see that it's already started that route. Most people have problem with the secertiveness of it rather than what it does(now that most know what it does.)

I thought, myself, that is was way more...unbalancing. But now that I have learned what it does, it's interesting. There's already been an abuse of it mentioned(Put AFKer on mountain, open strat tab, set autorefresh to 5 minutes, you get constant live stream). I think, had it been open source or at least ANNOUNCED that "Hey we are testing this can we get testers" would have kept this...well...less drama than it is.

I also edited my first post to remove ANY input from me.

I will wait to see if someone else makes a new thread. If they do, I'll stop this voting.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dodnet on December 06, 2012, 05:05:59 pm
Well basically after reading all this mess, if I would make any script or improvement on strategus I would not share it anymore. Congratulations on that  :mad:

You guys don't know how much time ppl put into stuff like that...
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Rikthor on December 06, 2012, 05:08:47 pm
I believe the main problem wasn't what the program did, in so much as to who had access.

Dodnet: You have put your add-ons out there for anyone to use, not use some approval process like this "beta".
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 06, 2012, 05:10:34 pm
Well basically after reading all this mess, if I would make any script or improvement on strategus I would not share it anymore. Congratulations on that  :mad:

Sharing is fine if you allow EVERYONE to do it. That's where(at least my problem, now that I know what it does), came from. Devolping stuff and having testers is fine, but you don't need 34 testers of 1 side to test. you can use, very easily 4 testers to get a stable version out and then make it open source and let anyone test it and give you feed back.

For your script you tested it yourself for a long time(or so) before releasing it to everyone and making further refinements at later date based upon feedback and new ideas.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dodnet on December 06, 2012, 05:14:40 pm
Dodnet: You have put your add-ons out there for anyone to use, not use some approval process like this "beta".

Yeah, but I published it, when it was finished not a half ready version of it. Making something like kinngrimm did with a database and stuff behind and having x ppl play around on it while its still in development is plainly useless.

And thats the difference which some of you might not understand.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Rikthor on December 06, 2012, 05:18:01 pm
Yeah, but I published it, when it was finished not a half ready version of it. Making something like kinngrimm did with a database and stuff behind and having x ppl play around on it while its still in development is plainly useless.

And thats the difference which some of you might not understand.

And if he kept it to just wolves, that might be a valid argument for testing sake. He didn't.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 06, 2012, 05:26:05 pm
But here again lies the problem. It's NOT finished, yet there is 34  or more people using it.(or at least have accounts)

I'm all for working on a new program. But with this one, it's been known for 2 months and limits the shit you gotta micromanage(Awesome). But It was giving on invite only(as a test, alright) but to 34 or more players(EH!?!) of one side(....). Development should continue on it, and king made the right choice by putting out there: What it does, what it's goal is, how to get access(and why it's done this way). It should have been like that the moment the idea to go beyond 4-5 testers was decided. People would know, and if they wish to help(or use) this program they would have had access to get to it.

I have never heard of it until shik mentioned what it was in a very short concise post(with thovex showing some screenies with the first picture making me go ????)

This whole thing could be handled way better in terms of release, general knowledge, or otherwise. Just...popping up out of nowhere kinda pisses people off. Wouldn't you be pissed if someone out of nowhere showed you a program that did X so much better or easier or w/e criteria you use than what is originally provided and they were using  it for a long time?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Niemand on December 06, 2012, 05:37:52 pm
Since when is this the decision of the community what a dev does with his program? Oo
He could ask for money for usage and it would still be alright. He could invite the whole ColdFrontAlliance or UIF and it would be alright.

You guys really just sound like jealous whiners that rage because their enemies are developing a plugin that can be used to make strat better... like we would betray you and cheat in a game.

Guys. Seriously. We got our honour, too. So, for example, wouldn't I purposely attack an NA-fief on their nighttime or use autoblock or aimbot or other shit. I used to cheat in D2LOD, Anno1602... and i stopped it, because it took away my pride about all achievements I made. And, believe it or not, I did NEVER use any cheats in Warband Singleplayer. (Yes, that really is true.)
So: This tool is not cheating, it is being developed for making your strategus better.

Btw: I would like a drag&drop-function for equipment-transferring. :O
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dynamike on December 06, 2012, 06:02:15 pm
Can we remove Niemand from this community already?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Hobb on December 06, 2012, 08:09:38 pm
Quote from: chadz link=topic=42793.msg670358#msg670358 date=

However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

PS: this is no final decision yet, either way

From the perspective of a power hungry dictator in a communist strat faction, I sincerly do not want mechanics giving me the ability to see EVERYTHING all of my faction members can see. This just takes even more responsibility from the individual player, and gives more power to me, the dictator.

Yes there isnt direct automation, but when you have most of your clans phone #s, or other direct linkage to the persons, you are always minutes away from getting something done from one of your members who wouldnt do that action on his/her own. (This is half of what account-sharing does)

What I cannot do is hold my clan members hand and get him through a tough situation like avoiding an army without him/her getting ahold of me first. I wouldnt know to text/call this caravan of mine to quickmarch out of danger if he doesnt get on to see it first and ask me what to do. I cant see any armies approaching a fief I am not in, unless someone reports it to me who is in the area. (The other half of what account sharing does)

This is an unbelievable buff to any faction laid out similar to mine, and you would be taking responsibility from the majority of strat players, and giving more power to the small number of clan leaders.

If this is added/allowed of course we will use it, and you have no idea how much it will help my faction. And I completly agree and applaud you for encouraging people to enhance their own strat interface to benefit their faction, but this particular mechanic/feature is too much.

To me the website part of strat is so addicting and fun because its like playing a strategy game with your whole clan/community where everyone has to do their part to improve the well being of their clan. Anything that limits the "part," the role of individual clan members is a bad thing. I want my faction to be good at strat not because I was able to micro everthing for everyone, but because our faction as a whole stayed focused and organized and each person did their part.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Turboflex on December 06, 2012, 08:25:03 pm
I agree with Hobb.

I think this version of strat has done a lot more to involve individual members than strat 3 which is a good thing. Last strat everyone was a production bot in town, now they are instead basically encouraged to roam map and be productive as trader, scouts or bandits and people are a lot more interested in it. When a problem comes up tho, you just kind of gotta hope the guy can get through it cuz you can't micromanage him and that's part of a teamwork/multiplayer game.

A program that gives officers direct control over members is definitely a step backwards in this regards. It turns strat back towards a game where top officers micro everything and members turn back into bots. This is basically account sharing but through a finer mechanism. It really shouldn't be legal.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 06, 2012, 09:05:34 pm
Again the addon does not give you directly access,
The information shared is very limited(troop count, faction color, player name plus the last point of appearance after leaving spotting range which fades out over time)

The plan is to make this usable also through a diplomatic system as a carrot to get factions openly and wantingly to use the diplomatic system. By that then, the strat devs have a way to see who is working with whom and therefor could balance large alliances. The shared information would then but be even more deminshed, like no exact numbers on troop count only the size of the dot, no player name only the faction name and its color)

The balancing i mentioned in the paragraph befor, but can't be done by us, as those things are very much server side things which cant be influenced through a client side script as ours.

Yes i see that making it public from the getgo would have earned me less hustle and conspiracy accusations, still
from my work philosophy, believe it or not i don't quite give a shit, form my philosophy i want to deliver something what is mostly bug free. Atm 3/4 of the guys in my faction who use this tool have outdated versions which because of that don't share the information which this addon provides, if i would have been sooooo keen on getting everything possible and abusing the hell out of it, these guys woul certainly all have the latest version or i would have set a policy in my faction to regularly check and update it, didn't happen. The same problem do have most of the other factions who use it, so again this is still under heavy development and is not always working as it is supposed to work.

There are other known bugs, which render this tool, challenging, parties are shown twice on the map, not always the data is added at all, you would need to refresh or scroll in and out, ....


The reasons for not giving out all information at once and only to a selctive group of people, have nothing to do with not wanting others to have it but out of pragmatism and wanting to have a stable version first and then in the end perhaps get some claps on the shoulder for something we achieved for the community.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Loki on December 06, 2012, 10:14:00 pm
I trust software made by kinngrim as much as I trust kinngrim. Smells like an unfair advantage. Looks like cheating.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Jarlek on December 06, 2012, 10:42:18 pm
I have proof you guys used BUY SCRIPT in strat 2 and more (made by a russian clan we all know)
Oh man, we had BUY SCRPITS! Fuck me, why didn't anyone give me that? Because being able to buy stuff is, like, completely broken and OP, right? Right? Guys? Why are you all staring at me like that?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Ulmarth on December 06, 2012, 10:46:17 pm
Oh man, we had BUY SCRPITS! Fuck me, why didn't anyone give me that? Because being able to buy stuff is, like, completely broken and OP, right? Right? Guys? Why are you all staring at me like that?

Sorry was just thinkin u had a nice arse in that mail tunic ;)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Thovex on December 06, 2012, 11:09:51 pm
The thing is, I'm worried that a faction might be able to link themselves with other strat characters without them noticing, giving vision over an entire area using other clans characters.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Blackzilla on December 06, 2012, 11:58:01 pm
To be honest, I think the entire thread is biased already. Make a new thread imo.
It'll still be biased considering the majority of the people who use it are the only ones left on the EU strat map. :/
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 07, 2012, 01:14:58 am
Then again there was no reason to not mention it to the public and make this whole matter a bit less suspicious. Even if approved by devs, I use my own eyes to look on things. This thing gives you an advantage. Doesn't matter small or great advantage, it's still an advantage. Doesn't matter how long it has been in use, every day or week counts in Strategus. Fact is you (or rather, the Wolves) kept it silent to others.

Also if it was only intended for the devs as of now, why is it shared almost exclusively amongst eastern UIF ?
Since i was one of the first to get in this tools i may give you some accurate information guys :
Code: [Select]
    User name kinngrimm
    Player name Wolves_kinngrimm
    Faction Wolf Pack Mercenaries
    Creation date 30/10/12

Code: [Select]
    Name Les Trois Lys
    Description Les Trois Lys
    Leader airstrike
    Members 2
Statistics for Les Trois Lys

    Creation date 30/10/12
If we were in this tool to get advantage why didn't i invite more Pecores And trois Lys guys? Why didn't I use it to get what you call an unfair advantage? Well fuck off  because none of us did want to get any advantage. This tool is what a good strategus v2 should have. And only thing we did want is to debug it cause it had a lot of bug , of blank pages  ,  of login problem and we didn't people we can trust to do that. Anyway the Crpg Community is just shit and don't deserve this tool.
To summarize : Good guy guika try to develop a tool that he wants to be implanted in next strategus so everyone could use it. Guika and all his friends works to do this tool wich take a lot of time. Then Random Community member come in this topic to criticize people that has done work for the community.

Here some facts that the basic crpg player forgot.
-This Game is a Beta : that means that everyone should be working here to make the game better. No one cares about who will win this strategus since it will be wiped soon. Come on guys strategus has been wiped three time and pause for six months or more and you still thinks it's worth playing like assholes?
-This game has a lot of lacks and most of time that people invest in strategus is due to a bad client side game : How much time did you invest sorting your equipement . It took me almost 2 hour to split my equipement among 5 team mates. Come on Guys two damn Hours! It would have got me 20 € and bought me supply for one weeks if i was working at a job. So every tool or improvement in strategus should be welcomed and highly encouraged.
-If you didn't got my point well congratulation, as most of cRPG Player participating in this forum : you're an asshole.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 07, 2012, 01:21:52 am
So what you're saying is, you dirty penis licker, is that you knew it was a third party software that gives you advantage, but you kept it to yourself and to your allies? And you're making it public now, because Thovex exposed it anyway?

But you don't care because ohhh noooo strat is fuckloads of micromanagement and then it's ok for you to use this.

How can one NOT view this as cheating?
Here are other information you
Quote
dirty penis licker
Code: [Select]
    User name harald
    Player name Mace
    Faction Test
    Creation date 03/11/12
Code: [Select]
    User name Fallen_Tomas
    Player name Fallen_Tomas
    Faction The Coalition
    Creation date 03/11/12
Code: [Select]
    User name Shik
    Player name Shik
    Faction hero_party
    Creation date 05/12/12
Well if you don't know this guys , they are member of Crpg Development staff crew. Or maybe you shut put off the shit blinding your eyes?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 07, 2012, 01:29:09 am
First off, because others supposedly did it, it makes it ok for you to do it as well? As far as I know, revenge TK is bannable as well.

I'm not mad, I'm just accusing you of cheating, because you used a third party software that provided you with an advantage over your enemies, while you didn't provide this to everyone else as well. So you did have an advantage (even if a slight one) over those who didn't (supposedly) have such software, by using third party shit. Even if by some fucking weird miracle not condemned by the devs.

But you so conveniently made it public now that it was exposed anyway and 3/4 of the UIF quit strat.
Well Guika should be proud of having you call it a Software whereas when i begun testing it it was merely a pre pre pre alpha.
But Vibe it's common for people like you to try to explain their own medocrity.
The tools was kept in closed preprealpha 3weeks with developper inside in the very very first part of the testing . Then directly openned to nord and i don't think that Andswaru is helping developping the tool by making bug reports according to how he reacted in this topic. You know Vibe Guika and kinngrimm hired people trustworthy and likely to help by sending bug report in this tool. Not people like you only focusing about taking advantage on other people and not even thinking that this slight advantage has been only taken to improve the game and not to play with it
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 07, 2012, 01:30:40 am
I made my script public after using (and improving) it several times. So I used it before anyone else was using it. I admit as a cheater now too  :rolleyes:
nothing to add :D
I trust software made by kinngrim as much as I trust kinngrim. Smells like an unfair advantage. Looks like cheating.
Looks like you took only 5 sec to think about it.
That wonderfull how people can give their opinion about something they don't even want to test. The pre-alpha is open now, but i hope that you guys will try to help debug it and not only think about taking advantage or not ;)

Yeah, but I published it, when it was finished not a half ready version of it. Making something like kinngrimm did with a database and stuff behind and having x ppl play around on it while its still in development is plainly useless.

And thats the difference which some of you might not understand.
Well it seems that dodnet didn't want to release his tool during beta so he could use it and get an unfair advantage unitl it get to final version. Ban Him (Irony Inside)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 07, 2012, 01:37:21 am
Open Source (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-enhancment-project/msg670124/#msg670124)

so feel free to browse the source code, client and server side code included. A Layout of the database will be included in a few minutes.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on December 07, 2012, 01:38:59 am
Open Source (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-enhancment-project/msg670124/#msg670124)

so feel free to browse the source code, client and server side code included. A Layout of the database will be included in a few minutes.
No one will bother reading the source and they will just keep saying you are a cheater using a non open source tool. Anyway , you should leave Crpg it will be better for you

To Conclude to and to show you that most of the player fogot they were playing a beta : How much people here did post a bug report at the mantis bug tracker? And by a bug report i'm not talking about asking dev to buff your class style or your weapon ?
I did post something like 10 bug report here. Does the average Crpg player do the same? I don't think so...
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Niemand on December 07, 2012, 05:37:50 am
Regarding this thread:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Can we remove Niemand from this community already?
You'd love to, huh? ;)
But no, I am the chimney of cRPG. I am anchored into the bricks of the community, warming everyone with hatred. :D
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Nessaj on December 07, 2012, 07:15:31 am
Burned through 2 cups of morning coffee writing all this crap up :P


the Nords using this as a exit as well.
When we all know this is due to there trade is STOPED in strat with our (Hre Peace Mercs Deserters) 17000 men troops walking into occiatan and bashi territory's.

Oh Ginger, ever so colourful fantasies you spin in that fiery head of yours.

We decided long ago to quit Strategus not due to any of the reasons debated here, neither the unfair treatment (in our eyes at least) of a small part of the people who got banned, nor the hypocrisy of a lot of players using unfair advantages that is per definition cheating.

We decided to quit ages ago (and have been cursing that we joined up this round) because we don't want to put in the enormous effort it takes to run a fairly sized effective clan when the gain is non-existent due to:

Fleshed out reasoning:
(click to show/hide)


My gut feeling is that this is very advanced, but at this point, is not against the rules, and I like it that people actually put so much effort into client side customisations. So in my opinion, it's ok (although I WILL nerf the view range on mountains)

However, if the community as a whole decides that they don't want this to be allowed, I will accept this and outlaw usage of the data like this.

PS: this is no final decision yet, either way

chadz, I seriously cannot believe you don't see why something such as this is deeply game-breaking when not standardized by the game it self;

Click the spoiler for the full post:
(click to show/hide)
Quote
cheating -- present participle of cheat (Verb)

    Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: "she cheats at cards".

How it is not unfair, how it is NOT an advantage to have such tools available in private, while everyone else is running around playing the games by the book...

If I knew something such as this were allowed I would have had tools made in Strategus v1 instead of wasting countless hours doing it to the letter of the rules, who wouldn't, but I've never for a second considered it because it is clear as crystal to me that this is a huge unfair advantages over other players.

You either have to put it into the mod so it is standardized or make it free for all to read about, use and download RIGHT AWAY -- OR -- disallow any use of hidden third party tools that automates or speeds up any of the processes on the Strategus page.

The rules can obviously allow for a Buy-Script, but it would need to be stated and available for download for everyone, otherwise it should be illegal.

If this tool was intended to be open and available to the public, it would (should) have been announced at its birth, with beta versions full of bugs and annoyances being available for all to download. It not being public and being available in lesser versions prior to the current one for a hidden cabal (:|) is unfair and wrong on all level.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 07:40:14 am
^ Basically how I feel. I'm not against third party stuff that reduces micromanagement, but it NEEDS to be open to everyone (except of course for the really really early version that should be for the creator's eyes only). If it's not handled like that, it could just come down to which side has the best scripts / programs to reduce the time with micromanagement.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on December 07, 2012, 08:01:21 am
Did... Did Nessaj just say that most of NA does not participate in Slander and propaganda etc at the same levels that EU does? I know that was not the main focus of your post, but... I'm pretty surprised, and I most sincerely disagree.


To be more on topic:
"What is keeping someone from making a Third Party Tool which for example allows leaders to give out way-points on a "screenshot" either just an actual image or something more complex."
I really want to point out that chadz in your quote of his did not automatically condone ALL plug-ins, and specifically mentioned that this exact one did not break any rules. I'm really not sure then why you went into a massive (though well put) argument that was entirely based on another program entirely and not the one in question. If he was condoning any and all plug-ins then yes you have a wonderful point, but he is not and did not say that at all. The whole chunk of that spoiler just seems like a tangent that is a considerable misdirection to the subject at hand.



The rest of your post though raises noteworthy points, thank you for the interesting read. I would though like to point out that instantly starting a beta from the very start for your entire audience is disastrous, even the Devs did it by initially having the WSE2 Beta tester ONLY (And the WSE2 does offer considerable advantages  like the ability to (at least with my machine and graphical settings to make it even more painfully obvious) make it impossible for the enemy to hide by not only toggling on their banners but ALSO give them bright neon red outlines that even make it crystal clear in the fog where they are. By your very words and associated standards every BetaTester is a cheater. The devs started small though and released it in an initially small group though so they were not overwhelmed.


Examples of why it can be disastrous to start big and why it is often better to start small (from my personal practical experience, not "armchair experting"):
You can not reasonably ask any programmer to release incomplete code to the general audience.


Edited for clarity
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on December 07, 2012, 08:52:40 am
I will just post one Reply on this hole matter too state my Point of View.

SoA was registrated in the Strat V a Month ago or so and we not had a singel Moment in Strat where we gained any Advantage because of it..!!!
I registrated because Kinngrim asked me too do it after he explained too me ,what the purpose of this Thingy is and that its confirmed by Harald and chadz.
He explained me that we joining too testing it and when i said him that they should make it public the Answer was that they gonna do it when its ready.

As we and Wolves have the most Members registrated there i can say its not an Gamebreaking Advantge in its current State and not was used in what ever matter u guys imagine nor was it planned too be kept secretly.
Guika and Kingrimm already said it was created too make Strat a better expirence for ALL who particpating.
Why else they would show it too his foes on the Map? :rolleyes:
I cant say much bout hardfeelings between the Clans since this is my first Strat Round ,but from what i can say the certain Clans of UIF that was kept out of this Project till now
just earned what they sowed..
Because they showed that Tool just too peopel they thought that would be trustworthy in matter of exploiting and cheating....
It may appear that their Intention with this Thingy was too gain an Advantage over their Foes but thats simply wrong.
I think its quite said that this Guys now gettin harrased or used as an excuse for whatever  just becasue they actually want too help improving Strategus.And i just can repeat this Tool is NOT Gamebreaking nor any usefull at all atm^^.
Sure there is Potential in it too save here and there some time Screenshot wise and maybe let u react a tiny bit faster.Was it used like that?Nope
U just can get Mapupdates by Peopel in ur Faction at the Sratviewer and who are online anyway.So if u really want too spy on ur Enemys u would take in Peopel that not in ur Stratfaction too cover it...
But thats not the Case so dont make a Drama out of it ,better join in now so next Strat gonna be better for all or u actually know about what u do an Drama LOL.

greetz OD


Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Noctivagant on December 07, 2012, 09:31:15 am
(click to show/hide)
Maybe you shouldn't join the ganking train at the first place. you are talking about "tools" you knew about account sharing complaints, you knew about duped gold complaints and its right there I'm not making these things out of my ass, its not my imagination. You still chose to join them, so spare me from your self righteous -Oh we've been fair, its all propaganda! you chose to join the gangbang train when there were no game breaking alliances or any sort of bugs on our side.
What happened with the tool, happened now! the people you allied with, were doing this stuff for two damn years now and the list is long its not just account sharing or gold stuff. Its teleporting armies, walking on the sea goes on and on. I fought HRE just the last Strategus. There weren't any mega alliances, nobody were screwing up the game but your allies. Stop playing the victim will you?
Plus, All of the Anti UIF tried to speak to you guys, no you chose to change your word in every conversation. Oh spare me from your honesty...you are writing a drama there and its all unnecessary. Likes of us? like the people you were playing were the most awesome examples of this community for two years. I hate the day they joined this community. Oh but when I complained about it you told me -Nocti you are taking this game too serious. So do you?

Karma...

You speak of unfair advantages, enormous impacts :

I never saw you complaining about Bashi having %40 of the entire gold of Calradia, you kept playing with them, you were quiet then and you called some of us names for complaining about it. You are speaking of playing fair, but do you tell people who you got help of account sharing Union sending trades caravans to you to fix your S&D? no you said back then it was S&D terrorism. Which was a system in the game. So when something works against you its simply "wrong"

Long story short, you never tell when you benefit from unfairness. We been dwelling in the depths of unfair longer than a year now. You are just discovering it recently, welcome to the club.

You are so self righteous Cooties, you never say anything about what your allies were doing and I got an impression that you are almost saying -What happened to banned members wasn't right and it sickens me.

As you said yourself earlier

Quote
Nothing else can end this conflict.
(click to show/hide)

Please keep it as brief as possible.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 07, 2012, 09:36:01 am
Stupid to vote over something that the public really don't know what is.

1. Mercs tested it for like 3 days. Found it useful but security issues (possible to hack)
2. DaveUKR quited the game for some time and dint use this tool (hes the 1 on mountain)
3. this tool can be used to automatic shit but as it is now is just like a screen shot, but easier to see it because u see it on the strat map.

test it then come back and make ur vote.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: chadz on December 07, 2012, 09:52:35 am
First of all, I reduced view from mountains from 200% to 140% and Hills from 140% to 120%.

Second, it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.

@Nessaj, I see your point, but I am just having a different opinion. I mean there are people sitting down and writing tools, extensions, for a game that many like to play, but has a crude UI, to make it easier to use. This is, in my opinion, awesome. I really love that. I maybe should have stated more clearly from the beginning that I like it when people do that, and I want to encourage it, not prevent it.

It's probably from the games background I'm coming from. I think (old) Counterstrike was very scriptable clientside, with buy scripts and stuff. That was pretty cool back then.
Then there was tribes. Not sure if many still know, but tribes 1 didn't have skiing. It was a pretty generic game with a few vehicles and jetpacks. Until a bug was figured out that when you keep hitting jump rapidly, you could gain ridiculous speeds. Soon, scripts appeared that did that automated, leading to a game where you can fly with 1000 kph over landscapes. If it wouldn't have been for this, it would have never produced that unique franchise. Also, you could modify nearly everything clientside. Most of the scripts were open source, some not, no one cared. If one of the scripts went too far, the providing of data was limited.
Haven&Hearth, (I'm looking at you Vibe), don't tell me you didn't use one of the extended clients. Even the devs themselves used those. And rightfully so, because they were simply better.

What I'm saying is, extending a game can be beautiful, and can really enrich the game as a whole. I always considered strat a community project, believe it or not, and I'm always happy when people do stuff that I didn't have the time to do (shared view wasn't done because of server capacity).

Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Noctivagant on December 07, 2012, 09:56:33 am
I don't think scripts are that much of a big deal, the deal is : only one side is using it. Please tell your beta testers to keep it for themselves OR pick beta testers from each active strat clan to test it. So people won't get weird ideas.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 07, 2012, 10:47:31 am
I agree with chadz, this discussion is clan related, not on the actual facts or the program itself.

But people seem to forget 1 thing, especial the Nords have come with a lot of accusations and made this tool a problem when its really not.
but have you thought about what it means for a clan to have Devs inside your clan ? I remember what we  got to know when cmpx was a merc.
This is more a problem then this tool. Why ?

because just now the Devs are making new stuff for Strat, i hear talk about balista and some other things that i dont know what are.
This situation might benefit a clan likeNords who got many contacts and members inside Devs admins and the followers of chadz himself.
the info they get in a early stage can be use for example to save up points so they get the new stuff +3 before anybody else. or taking decisions inside strat because of the info they got.

I think this is more of a advantage then seeing a screen every 10 min from a online clan member.

On the other side this is a necessity evil to have this game move forward.

Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vovka on December 07, 2012, 10:53:20 am
(click to show/hide)
true so true
Uif's entire economy was built on the basis of information obtained by the Nords personally from chadz, during a casual conversation in a Finnish sauna.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 07, 2012, 11:04:31 am
Why try and joke away everything i say because i am a Merc vovka ? We have to be able to set aside UIF/Anti UIF discussion when it comes down to how strat should be and why.

Inside information from Devs might be useful for any clan. And might have a impact on everything in strat.
And a lot more useful to know details about strat then a screen shot from a member.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vovka on December 07, 2012, 11:14:07 am
One wise statement:

"inside information from the dev is a greater advantage than the script".

Overgrown by shit and accusations

Shitpost:
I agree with chadz, this discussion is clan related, not on the actual facts or the program itself.
But people seem to forget 1 thing, especial the Nords have come with a lot of accusations and made this tool a problem when its really not.
but have you thought about what it means for a clan to have Devs inside your clan ? I remember what we  got to know when cmpx was a merc.
This is more a problem then this tool. Why ?
because just now the Devs are making new stuff for Strat, i hear talk about balista and some other things that i dont know what are.
This situation might benefit a clan likeNords who got many contacts and members inside Devs admins and the followers of chadz himself.
the info they get in a early stage can be use for example to save up points so they get the new stuff +3 before anybody else. or taking decisions inside strat because of the info they got.
I think this is more of a advantage then seeing a screen every 10 min from a online clan member.
On the other side this is a necessity evil to have this game move forward.

and so in every second post on this forum)
At each word on a subject, ppls scribble 100 words accusations of cheating, abuse, etc. )

Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Nessaj on December 07, 2012, 11:17:22 am
@Tears, in regards to the North American stuff, as I mentioned, I didn't want to comment further upon it other than the fringe comedical elements of the NA community had an healthy impact upon the EU community, not that NA didn't have the same type of BS as Europe does. It isn't like I don't read the forum :P

Regarding the armchair experience note; I have more than a decade of working experience with software both offline and online, not as an actual programmer though I can program and understand code on an average level depending on language of course, but as a project manager, leader and CEO. Everything I said in regards to creating and managing a script/addon holds 100% water.

You also cannot compare WSE2 to what this tool does. They're hugely different things. It isn't like anyone is gaining an unfair advantage using the beta client, we were talking graphical enhancements, fps improvements, all those are easily achievable without WSE2, simple install of a folder mostly. No one could attack faster, see better, hear enemies louder, and what not you can think of with WSE2, nothing at all that would provide an unfair advantage over other players. (Granted I haven't seen the newest current version yet though so dunno if cmp did something silly, but in the beta there was nothing that I would consider an unfair advantage over other players).



@Nocti, doing the right thing is not being self righteous. Nor would I ever claim to be. I do mistakes obviously, so does Nords of course (plenty of fools from us blabbering nonsense), most of this whole predicament between our clans is simply due to misunderstandings, failure to communicate (or articulate) that blew out of proportions because both of our sides were too quick to jump at conclusions instead of talking to each other properly. Everyone feels cheated, lied to, mistreated. If everyone feels like that, obviously mistakes were made.

I've plenty written blame in regards to what our "allies" have done and always said tons of times that anyone who cheats should be banned -- as they have been -- I've advocated check-ups and investigations to cheating no matter who or which clan was in question. The only problem to me, as written many times as well, is that only some have been punished where-as others went home free even though what they did was just as bad. You forget I've been on all the sides in Strategus. The only reason we stand with UIF this round is because we could trust them from the last round, where-as all our experiences previously with other alliances had been bad. Other than that we're not exactly best buddies of 99. If we're going by your standards I should just do as I do now, comment on any sort of cheating no matter what clan, because I've pretty much worked with every single one in some regard in the Strategus rounds. First it was UIF being the big bad, then bad again, then bad and later friends, and lastly friends again. Both sides utter a ton of crap about each other, there's no difference, both sides have elements that's cheated in serious manners.

All sides are sullied in Strategus, there is no good or bad, basically that's it -- queue: thank you and good night everyone!

That's why I don't bother any more, I'm done, I have been done for months after your stunts with the night time. That was the last straw, I'll give you that dopamine rush for free. Enjoy.

Also, the being serious remark, it is meant to show that someone is doing something that one only would do if it was a threat to ones livelihood, e.g. if someone took their time to go around on a chat relay, such as IRC, or sending PMs on a forum, for hours, days, trying to convince people via lies to hate others in order to receive enhanced powers in Strategus. That is being serious.

If I'm serious because I spent 20 minutes writing a couple of forum posts, errrm, suure...

I was just trying to play a game, along the rules that was set forth, but it is impossible since everyone is life or death about winning at something that doesn't even have any importance at all.



@chadz, yes you should be much more open. You might become a real boy instead of this autonomous wooden creature :P
I would have enhanced Strategus for you over a year ago had you been vocal about something such as this. We should actually be :mad: at you for not being vocal about it, so many Strat management hours that could have been put to better use!
Anyway, I come from Counter-Strike too in terms of FPS, beta 5.2 and onward. Scripts in those are hugely different than what's going on with Strategus IMO. It isn't like there's weeks/months of work involved in Counter-Strike in any way, everything is straight on, in terms of joining a server, playing, gaining something. Buy scripts for FPS games are in general accepted everywhere, for almost any game where it has been available, with good reason too.

However, in time when people started learning about scripting and what it could do, plenty of Anti-Cheat/Script initiatives sprung out, which quickly became standard for any tournament and pretty much every serious game servers that were. Protection which disabled scripts or kicked/banned people who used unauthorized scripting, such as crouch-jumping scripts, network tweaking in order to make your character harder to hit and what else of cheating people thought of at the time.

There were plenty of cases too, most notably the Finnish clan Astralis which became known as the first ones to use scripts to gain unfair advantages in the more serious parts of the community. All those were eventually squashed, and rules were put in place that kept scripting in check, made sure that there were no unfair advantages given via scripting.

If you were to regulate all that too, sure, let the creativity flow, but it would be quite the operation and time consuming task. I don't see that being an reality here?
.
IMO, either there has to be regulation or it should be disallowed.

At the very least if someone wants to make something, post about the idea so all would know and be able to read about it, tell chadz of course, and then we would have no issues at all; BUT if people don't know, and there's no informal post on the forum and a add-on/tool is discovered to be providing unfair advantages to select players, those involve should definitely be permanently banned, no exceptions. Anything else makes it a shady untrustworthy operation.



@Ginger

but have you thought about what it means for a clan to have Devs inside your clan ? I remember what we  got to know when cmpx was a merc.

People can believe whatever they want it doesn't make it true.

cmp might have provided Mercs with unfair advantages and information when he were with you, I'm sure you asked and lobbied all you could, but with the Nords we have never asked nor lobbied him to do anything that would give us an unfair advantage nor has he ever offered anything. Likewise with chadz - or anyone who have developed something for Strategus. Never one time any help, tools, scripts, any beforehand information, not even a damn warning for downtime. We've always had a 100% exact same playing field as everyone who never cheated or exploited the game mechanics.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gingerpussy on December 07, 2012, 12:06:27 pm
I am not saying cmpx gave us something, but i remember 1 incident when the reinforcement time was changed.
Some Clans got this info we did not, we lost some battles due to it but that's just a example.

I remember as well when major changes was done that it was good to ask cmpx on details, instead of going to forum and ask. And at that time that really helped.

I am however trying to focus on how bad something is vs the other, example stealing a chocolate bar vs robbing a bank is very different criminal actions. And punished very differently.

So then you can set ur own opinion about it, i see UIF trying to make strategu sveiwer tool as just as bad as multiaccounting, and that's ridiculous.


my opinion about stuff that a legal ilegal and semi legal.

1. Multiaccounting, forever ban
2. Duping equip or gold, forever ban
3. duping troops, forever ban
4.  find a bug that dupe something and tell the dEVS, taken away the gold/equip.
5. Using gliches in strat battles, allowed
6. laying ladders on ground to prevent cav, i think legal
7. setting up ladder like last siege UIF ladderd up all over making towers of ladder, 1 week ban.
8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.
9. Using a script with Devs blessing, legal




Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Noctivagant on December 07, 2012, 12:12:03 pm
Cooties, thats exactly why we offered you "neutrality", we didn't offer you to join Anti-UIF. We simply didn't see Nords together with SOME of these guys. I'm sorry that our message didn't get through as how it should be. I mean a good thing now, I hope you understand it.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Goretooth on December 07, 2012, 12:25:23 pm
So cooties is perfect and his friends can do no wrong?
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 07, 2012, 12:29:14 pm
....
At the very least if someone wants to make something, post about the idea so all would know and be able to read about it, tell chadz of course, and then we would have no issues at all; BUT if people don't know, and there's no informal post on the forum and a add-on/tool is discovered to be providing unfair advantages to select players, those involve should definitely be permanently banned, no exceptions. Anything else makes it a shady untrustworthy operation.
...
Devs and admins informed: check

User name - Player name - Join date    
harald - Mace - 03/11/12
Fallen_Tomas - Fallen_Tomas - 03/11/12
talked to Meow, Harald and Thomas through irc and they told me they would contact chadz and inform him too.
Sources were made available at that point too.
=>
Only like a week before this, there was a first version out after about a months development, where you could actually see something, still too buggy at first to show, would have been embarrising.

Now i thought also to include you at that point into this cooties, but due to the crap i was confronted at that time, the wild accusations of S&D stealing where Mercs accused me and the wolves fucking up a possible alliance between them and Nords, i just was not in the mood to share you(1 Wolf carrying 6 trade goods out of your area ^^, many not grasping the implications of S&D ... Nords as Mercs overracted out of my view). Later on as you may remember we had a talk in irc where i shared some of my thoughts of what would be possible with greasmonkey scripting if it would be taken to its full extent, at that time the Harald and chadz but already knew and i didn't see a pressuring nature to tell you everything as also i have no fucking clue who always in the dev/admin team is on the need to know base and who not, the big chiefs knew so they could decide for themselves who to include and who not.

You mentioned being a Project Manager, i am more(workaholic) or less(breakdown and struggling)  a programmer so we both still have different view points onto a development cycle. I want perfection i want the fucking time to get it done right in the first time, Project Manager pressuring is not bad in a economical sense but not for quality when ressources are already rare, so having something what hasn't been ready to show not made public, i really don't see a big deal there.
First months nothing was able to use anyways, Guika was preparing Servers, installing and configuring software and slowly starting with programming. Then when i first registrated, there was still nothing to see on the map, the website was ready, then there was a raw form of the script ready, but still not working with firefox as Guika is chrome fan boy, then i saw the first dots and after getting bugs out the devs/admins had been informed.

As also stated before, i was impatient at some point as i didn't always saw the improvements which had been possible and with a programming background you see a lot of possibilities others don't. That combined with the phantastic experience with chort, where i had made suggestions in his eye candy script topic and those suggestions sometimes were instantly were included, made me thinking. So i asked a few months back in my clan who were able and willing to help to enhance strategus capabilites and get rid of some of the micromanagment aspects aswell make some ground work which later on could be used to get a better balancing done. Read the suggestions below and you see there are already some thoughts onto what now is set in motion(some other of these suggestions i only posted here again that they may be seen in this very frequented thread  :wink: ).

posts about idears: check

« on: 15 October 2012, 17:48:34 »
Priorized Battles for Factions (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/priorized-battles-for-factions/msg629637/#msg629637)
« on: 10 September 2012, 17:30:22 »
join crpg Ladder System with Strategus Faction + message system (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/join-crpg-ladder-system-with-strategus-faction-message-system/msg601679/#msg601679)
« on: 22 October 2011, 23:43:01 »
Faction Treasure Chest & Goods (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/faction-treasure-chest-goods/msg271232/#msg271232)
« on: 06 September 2011, 18:49:16 »
Account sharing & overproduction & players without factions (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/account-sharing-overproduction-players-without-factions/msg214989/#msg214989)
« on: 24 July 2011, 14:30:47 »
Problems - Solutions v4 (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/problems-solutions-v4/msg162996/#msg162996)

So out of my perspective, i did everything correctly. Imagine my surprise when Thovex used the shared knowledge to get his propaganda out and as Smoothrich mentioned yes this could have been handled better in terms of Public Relations, but tbh the only mistake i see i made was to take in guys who couldn't keep their mouth shut till this tool would be in a state which is a) bug-free and b) has more of the things already included i wanted to be seen accomplished.
http://strat-viewer.guiennet.com/site/Home/About

EDIT: another suggestion which i still think could be solve some issues about  S&D a secondary S&D pool for singleplayers without factions and those singleplayer gaining PP which they can use to buff propserity aswell as gear whereby factions then really would like to have singl player traders coming to their fiefs, factions getting more fiefs open with low taxes ... f.e. 100k gold earned after taxes = 1PP
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Nessaj on December 07, 2012, 01:00:37 pm
@Nocti, you should just have given us the castle and we'd been on good terms :P It might have been an unfair demand but Strategus is about control and war. We needed that castle to keep our borders clean of S&D thievery, not having it was a huge weakness. Water under the bridge though. We'll never see eye to eye with the tactics you utilize to play the game anyway.



@Ginger, I'll mostly agree with you on everything except number nine of course :wink: -- also I think glitching should have ramifications.

Just because the devs sanctioned a script doesn't make it any less of a rotten affair for everyone else.

To take an example - not to 100% compare - look at The War Z, the devs there are quite despicable:
http://n4g.com/news/1129770/the-warz-team-blacklists-customers-asking-for-refunds (http://n4g.com/news/1129770/the-warz-team-blacklists-customers-asking-for-refunds)
http://n4g.com/news/1104013/players-express-concern-over-unprofessional-the-war-z-developers (http://n4g.com/news/1104013/players-express-concern-over-unprofessional-the-war-z-developers)
http://n4g.com/news/1130831/the-rocky-road-for-the-war-z (http://n4g.com/news/1130831/the-rocky-road-for-the-war-z)

They may have the authority to do these things, but that doesn't change the outcome of their actions, doesn't make what they do right.

The one and only reason for backlash here is the secrecy, and that select few have been able to use this script -- and lesser prior versions of it even longer -- where they've gained huge unfair advantages over everyone else. That's not debatable, that is a fact, per definition. IMO a huge mistake was made here to green-light this in secrecy, without a single post on the forums, at all, even though that such a forum post would only inspire ideas. Hopefully other "enhancement"-scripts in the future will now have their existence announced before being used. Otherwise good luck to all the clans with programmers, may the most dedicated win...



@kinngrimm, all of that doesn't matter at all. Either you should have informed people or the devs should have made it clear to you that you should have. It does not surprise me that you see it that way given you are a previous cheater -- not to ruffle your feathers but that's your legacy, which shows you clearly have a radical view of what is appropriate and what isn't. The fact that there were a tool as powerful as this, in circulation in various lesser forms FOR MONTHS, without a forum post saying it is now actively being tested, that is per definition SECRECY. Your opinion doesn't matter in regards to that, facts and actions do, and yours in regards to this sir, suck.

You might have done it in parts for the better of the community, but I'm certain that is by far not the only reason, at all, and not the number one reason you went ahead with it. It also still doesn't make it right, doesn't make any of this right no matter what intentions. You kept it secret, you shared it for months in lesser versions.

You should have written in one of those many 'idea posts' that by the way do not disclosure anything what so ever, they're simply actual suggestions to add into the game, no note of any kind as to an actual tool being built and tested, no orderly conditions and circumstances; No matter if this was green-light or not, there should have been a forum post, and IMO even with a list of those who would have access to it as beta testers. That much is just common courtesy given its enormous potential.

The excuse that you wanted to have a solid product first is a farce. We're talking about a tiny tool for a small Indie game mod, not a commercial production of any kind. You are free to do what you want, there's no reputation here given no one knows who you are in this community, there's no deadlines, there's no headlines. There is absolutely zero reasoning for keeping something as powerful as this a secret. Zero. No one would care if you had posted and then later failed to create it, plenty of others have done so with numerous projects.

Everyone would hail this tool had you been honest and straight forward but now all the facts and actions show us that this was most likely available long before you contacted the devs, shared out between friends, interestingly enough only friends that would benefit you in Strategus, and then first now it comes out into the public, after months...

This is deceptive and cheating. That's part deux for you right?



@Goretooth

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Falka on December 07, 2012, 01:12:43 pm
8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.
8.a) claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, but managing their accounts in strat by one person, perma ban.  :wink:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 07, 2012, 01:27:18 pm
... Either you should have informed ...
i did inform those who needed to know as stated and also confirmed

... It does not surprise me that you see it that way given you are a previous cheater
am i now? Stop the slander or can't you engage on a civil level?

...
well seems not so, but at least you have it all figured out now haven't you ^^. You have one of these alien mindreading thingies don't you
... or wait
are you butthurt?( """not to ruffle your feathers but that's your legacy""" )
see that happens, when people mirrow the people they engage in communication.


... it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.
this

No one would care if you had posted and then later failed to create it, plenty of others have done so with numerous projects.
i would have cared and as always aren't we all closest to our self first and overall.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Ulmarth on December 07, 2012, 01:36:08 pm
We go two steps forward with this game which may i add is a BETA (ppl talkin like strat is all about war, no its about testing and tryin things) we choose to make a tool to make things easier and cooler.

The cRPG community throw sticks and spit at us saying were cheaters due to the recent retards gettin banned.

Figures we go 2 steps forward then 3 back cos retards wanna win at blob pushing.

Im havin a whiskey and laughin at all ur stupid replys.

PS i never used this tool as i never played strat but i know about it. And in this whole time Kinn was super excited about releasing sumthin for the community. Makes sense that the community shot it down

Your all jokes hahaha

Kind Regards Ulmarth The Scotsman
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dodnet on December 07, 2012, 01:42:19 pm
8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.

Being permabanned for a RL fantasy is so harsh  :|
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Nessaj on December 07, 2012, 01:56:56 pm
i did inform those who needed to know as stated and also confirmed

You did not inform anyone except devs and those receiving the betas = secrecy. You cannot change this definition. There isn't two sides to fact.

That clans dictate the discussion in this is complete bull too, at least in reference to my writings (why else mention it in your post?):
I have zero stake in Strategus, zero stake in the UIF. Nothing what so ever here to gain or win. I don't play and I don't intent on playing again due to actions such as those you have taken throughout your C-RPG career.
All of my writings are completely from the side line as a veteran observer in the community.

That I call you a cheater is because you did cheat, you lied to multiple clans for hours, days, via voice communication, which nullified a legit and completely fair war which everyone was having fun with, and replaced it with multiple clan quitting due to your acts, made the map and round stagnate for ages, killed the third alliance on the map which ever since have only seen the two UIF + Anti-UIF alliances, so great job on that too. Finishing off by wiping the last few clans off the map in Strategus with 10000x1 numbers making the attacks nothing more than a quick formality (and still with morning attacks of course). That IMO make's you a cheater.

All these facts above does not take away the achievement this tool would be if standardized. It just makes you a shady unfair person. I'm confident everyone here would love to see this tool implemented. That has never been the question raised, or the issue, at all. The work is highly appreciated. Your methods and secrecy are not.

Projects with powerful enhancements that severely cut management or otherwise should be in the open for all to see and follow from the get-go. Not done in secrecy. No matter what.

Let's just agree to disagree. It isn't like I will convince you otherwise nor you me.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: dodnet on December 07, 2012, 02:08:59 pm
That I call you a cheater is because you did cheat, you lied to multiple clans for hours, days, via voice communication, which nullified a legit and completely fair war which everyone was having fun with, and replaced it with multiple clan quitting due to your acts, made the map and round stagnate for ages, killed the third alliance on the map which ever since have only seen the two UIF + Anti-UIF alliances, so great job on that too. Finishing off by wiping the last few clans off the map in Strategus with 10000x1 numbers making the attacks nothing more than a quick formality (and still with morning attacks of course). That IMO make's you a cheater.

And this IMO makes YOU Cooties a complete dickhead.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Goretooth on December 07, 2012, 02:39:59 pm
Did nords quit strat before or after they attacked the banned grey order fiefs? Wouldn't getting information like that before anyone else be consider cheating?
Guess a tool would do that :lol:
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Tyr_ on December 07, 2012, 02:48:32 pm
Cooties, you say that you are fed up by all the lying from and between other clanleaders, but i can tell you one thing right now, you are as much of a lying scumbag as the rest of us is, including myself.
The only really honest clanleader i have met so far is Andswaru, and even though i had/have some troubles with him I highly respect his honest attitude.
Just to jump to the past quickly: First you said you wanted Ismirala Castle at any cost, so did we, then when we got it you told me that you have no interest in it and it was just some communication problems since it was okins (? not sure anymore) idea that you should take it, but the rest doesnt want it. Then you wanted it again.

I take the responsibility for the nighttime changes & handing the castle over to Alpha, it was my idea to do so and i kept Andswaru busy in diplomacy talks until the nighttime got activated - not one of my most glorious moments - but it was necessary since your war declaration has hit us out of nowhere while we were focused on the south, we always wanted good relations to you and therefore you catched us unprepared.
Also we never denied the existence of the anti-uif, therefore you were in war with templars the second you declared war on us, giving the castle to alpha was my last attempt to keep a peacefull relation to Nords, since i can trust Alpha to secure our southern border when he has this castle more than i could trust you at this point. Since you also had agreements with the templars gave me some hope that you may put more faith into them than into Mercenaries.
Btw, declaring war when your army is on our doorstep isn't the nice way either, so do not act like you are on a moral highground compared to other clans.

The only point when i ever was seriously disappointed about Nords was when you kept defending the cheaters.

You say there is no bad or good clans in strategus, its just 2 sides of a coin.
I agree, when we were in war with FCC and HRE in Strat 2 there was no bad side. Neither was when Fallens and Hosp fought each other on NA.

But the FACT that Union, Greys, Empire and Vendetta, 3 of the 4 big UIF factions received bans for multiaccounting/accountsharing makes it clear that there is a bad side.
I do not accuse Nords of cheating. Also i do not accuse Drz, actually i have more respect for them than for any other UIF clan, and im glad to see that there were no bans given to them in the latest waves, they are the only "clean" big uif clan and have a really good organisation.
And instead of accepting the consequences of their cheating they now act like they were saints and the developers were biased.

No matter how long a post is, a GTX is still a GTX.

If you dont even trust chadz that bans were handed out unbiased than it really is time for you to leave strategus, but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for it, all i see now is that it has paid of not to cheat and that justice was done.

Furthermore i can ensure you that we do not use Strat Viewer, I tested it for a few days but it is, as ginger said, a security risk which i'm not willing to take because of a game.
And also i have to back up kinngrimm here. Nords got the tool, a faction he trusts, but why should factions that are known for cheating beta-test it? I appreciate the idea of this tool and i hope it gets implemented to strat some day, but atm its too risky and it really doesnt pay off.

Also cooties, all the "gamebreaking ways of using tools" you discribed earlier can easily be done with sending PM's in the crpg site or talking in skype/ts - go there, forest east of Dhirim, the top tree. There is enough spots on the map to give exact informations to people.
Moreover i actually like the Idea of creating a coordinate system, it would make it easier to tell people where to go and also they can tell you in which sector they spotted for example an army.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Molly on December 07, 2012, 03:10:26 pm
I am not really involved in Strat - just to much of a hassle to play and it's kinda boring. Not mention all the other hatred between clans, so-called-leaders and other people who get all fired up for no reason... I mean, I actually thought that there are some intelligent people in this community but this thread has so much stupidity in it.

First of all - as a guy who did some programming himself, kinda professionally even, I can fully understand to NOT release anything until its not working in a at least acceptable way, I can fully understand to invite just a few people to an Alpha or even earlier release to avoid the full shit-posting this community is - like displayed in this thread - capable of (includes Vibe and unfortunately Cooties too).

Just look at the crap chadz, cmp, Paul and Harald have to take every single day in the depths of this forum - and then you people have the guts to complain about Guika/Kinngrimm that they don`t tell you about a piece of script that isn't even close to working properly? (No, I haven't seen it but knowing a bit about Kinngrimms real life professional background, I actually trust him about this)

Best thing is even: If I had known that we are allowed to program things for Strat I certainly would have... Oh please, gtfo already. I bet asking cmp about a permission to do something never crossed your mind, huh? Besides, since accusing people without any backing seems to be okay, who tells us that you, Cooties, never actually did something w/o letting the whole all-mighty community know?

The whole behaviour in this thread is a shame and in all honesty... if I were Guika, who seems to be the lead programmer, I would just throw the code into your faces and tell every single one of you to "Go fuck yourselves".
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Vibe on December 07, 2012, 03:18:46 pm
First of all - as a guy who did some programming himself, kinda professionally even, I can fully understand to NOT release anything until its not working in a at least acceptable way, I can fully understand to invite just a few people to an Alpha or even earlier release to avoid the full shit-posting this community is - like displayed in this thread - capable of (includes Vibe and unfortunately Cooties too).

As Cooties stated, there are much better and much less shady ways to do this. Of course you're not going to invite everyone to first tests. But they could've been open about it, as in announced it to the public, without needing to invite everyone - "hey look we're developing this cool thing here, it's still pretty shitty, but yeah, should be open to everyone once ready, until then we'll be selecting a few testers" - and have several different testers, a proper closed beta, not just from one side. How this was not at least forced by the devs once it was found out... That's what we're trying to point out. The way this was handled throws a suspicious shade on it.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 07, 2012, 04:33:00 pm
You did not inform anyone except devs and those receiving the betas = secrecy. You cannot change this definition. There isn't two sides to fact.
i am changing nothing, but there isn't only one point of view or only your truth, which you believe to have found and stated as facts. AS there is not only black and white, in these terms i am even very shady as i never claimed to be in the possession of the one and only truth or that questions of morality are only need to be painted in black and white, but that circumstances and point of views make all the differences, IT ALWAYS DEPENDS is one of my favourite phrases.

That clans dictate the discussion in this is complete bull too, at least in reference to my writings (why else mention it in your post?):
I have zero stake in Strategus, zero stake in the UIF. Nothing what so ever here to gain or win. I don't play and I don't intent on playing again due to actions such as those you have taken throughout your C-RPG career.
All of my writings are completely from the side line as a veteran observer in the community.
objectivity is an ideal to strive for, subjectivity the default.

That I call you a cheater is because you did cheat, you lied to multiple clans for hours, days, via voice communication, which nullified a legit and completely fair war which everyone was having fun with, and replaced it with multiple clan quitting due to your acts, made the map and round stagnate for ages, killed the third alliance on the map which ever since have only seen the two UIF + Anti-UIF alliances, so great job on that too. Finishing off by wiping the last few clans off the map in Strategus with 10000x1 numbers making the attacks nothing more than a quick formality (and still with morning attacks of course). That IMO make's you a cheater.
so you telling me it is all water under the bridge and no grudges ^^ hasn't quite been the truth i guess.
So much for your objectivity now.
Comparing a strategic move, a trick, a ruse against an alliance, which you haven't been part of, but used in a time where it was convinient and you otherwise would have been wiped, that comparing or declaring as a cheat is quite a width stretch in my view, but clearly you see things differently. Man these allaince members i tricked, had they been disappointed of Nords while Nords first agreed on the alliance in the first meeting and then like "no we never agreed onto anything" That was a neat turn of events back then in strat 3.0, you basicly made it possible that Desert Alliance had success with the ruse without being troubled through your pressence in the Desert, then you were idling and when we came back to finish you off, it was quite like now with the Nords, GTX and blablabla! Afterwards which also had been confirmed by Grey Order you got ressuplied by them without a sweat on your part and being used as proxies to get back in the Desert. Surprise you used stuff from those who most likely already then cheated(account sharing, not sure about gold duping, GO and Desert Alliance had quite some nice trade going for a while in strat 3.0), but no that doesn't make you a cheater at all, your hands are clean ... (problem with propaganda like yours is, if you leave it unchallanged people tend to just believe that crap, now you can also claim the same for what i wrote ... fair right, equal opportunities)

All these facts above does not take away the achievement this tool would be if standardized.
true, but

It just makes you a shady unfair person.
this and the other slandering shit you and others spill, i take as an attempt to do so. Many implications without facts or neglecting the facts others and myself posted. Try to point out more your opinions perhaps in comparison to stating them as facts.

Projects with powerful enhancements that severely cut management or otherwise should be in the open for all to see and follow from the get-go. Not done in secrecy. No matter what.
Considering what you posted sofar, you definetly have no clue what you are talking about and the capabilities of the addon, which if you would have tested it, with Thovex and Andswaru should have become clear. You had the chance for at least 2 weeks, but instead you and Thovex are just spilling poison, not sure why you tried to distance yourself from.

Let's just agree to disagree. It isn't like I will convince you otherwise nor you me.
fuck yes, different opinions, different point of views, different realities it seems. Maybe you are closer to an overall objective truth ... maybe not. In the end as always the truth is somewhere in between right ^^

In the end this really is no fun here, we will keep on going with the development, but engaging with the likes of you into fruitless discussions is just a waist of time again out of my point of view.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
everything i wanted is in my sig now,

thanks chadz for giving chort, dotnet, Guika,me and others who would like to engage a bit more actively in enhancing the strategus experience  the chance to do so and if i may say/imply so your at least moral support for that.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: GuiKa on December 07, 2012, 04:38:27 pm
The whole behaviour in this thread is a shame and in all honesty... if I were Guika, who seems to be the lead programmer, I would just throw the code into your faces and tell every single one of you to "Go fuck yourselves".

:D
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 07, 2012, 04:55:27 pm
Did nords quit strat before or after they attacked the banned grey order fiefs? Wouldn't getting information like that before anyone else be consider cheating?
Guess a tool would do that :lol:
The information was freely available for anyone bothering to look.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Goretooth on December 07, 2012, 05:11:30 pm
The information was freely available for anyone bothering to look.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/nords-have-seen-the-light!/msg646055/#msg646055
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Molly on December 07, 2012, 05:12:52 pm
As Cooties stated, there are much better and much less shady ways to do this. Of course you're not going to invite everyone to first tests. But they could've been open about it, as in announced it to the public, without needing to invite everyone - "hey look we're developing this cool thing here, it's still pretty shitty, but yeah, should be open to everyone once ready, until then we'll be selecting a few testers" - and have several different testers, a proper closed beta, not just from one side. How this was not at least forced by the devs once it was found out... That's what we're trying to point out. The way this was handled throws a suspicious shade on it.
I don't think they were like "Hey, let's do some coding and then we get this great thing..." That's not how it works... normally.

You start with the idea. "Would it be possible to do this by ourselves? Well, let`s try..." and you want them to go already public at that point?
Nobody is going to do that. Never ever. You start coding some basics like "If we do this... let's see what happens... Cool, that seems to work for a start. Now, if we add this...". At some point it goes from "That seems to work." to "Okay, let`s see if we get something actually useful out of it" and from my understanding that is the point they're at right now. You can't do some closed beta with code that isn't even running properly. And if you do, you have to take care about everyone who doesn't get it running cuz hasn't updated Firefox the last 2 years, isn't really familiar with a pc overall, has a shitty system setup and so on. That takes time off developing and you actually don't wanna do it cuz it's annoying as hell... :P

Everyone who was/is using it said that it is not even working properly yet and still everyone is making a fuss about it - that is what I don't understand.

When the code still has bugs/stability issues and is just the basic foundation you want to improve on, then there is nothing to share yet.

Don't get me wrong, it`s not like I don't understand your issues but to me it is blown up way out of proportion. Besides that the whole discussion is so much filled up with hatred, personal agendas and hypocrisy - it ain't even a fun drama - all fought on the back of a guy who was just doing some coding for fun and the benefit for the whole community. He's spending his spare time to create something cool and everyone seems to see just the evil intention of cheating instead of being grateful that he is even doing this. That is some shady behaviour right there.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Gurnisson on December 07, 2012, 05:45:02 pm
U guys are incredible. Im out of words. pathetic mogoloids

Your posts are garbage, Ginger. Make your clan (and all forumites) a favor and stay out of the forum. Please consider it. Thanks
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: highglandeur on December 07, 2012, 06:33:26 pm
Let's be honest this tool isn't even working fine and wolves suck at strategus, only kinngrimm cares about strat in our ranks and most of us don't even bother grinding or even joining battles.

All this shit is either bitching from guys who felt they have been unfairly treated by the community or personnal vendetta against kinggrimm for being a strategus snake, might be genuine and maybe even deserved, yet not relevant.

The guy who coded that script had no cheating intentions, he advised the devs about his testing, as molly said give him a fucking break.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: GuiKa on December 07, 2012, 06:44:58 pm
Let's be honest this tool isn't even working fine

Wat
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: highglandeur on December 07, 2012, 06:53:10 pm
maybe i should dl a newer version lol i never connect to that shit i hate strat, strat is the devil!!!!
I want friendly clan matches back lets kill strat!!!
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: GuiKa on December 07, 2012, 07:02:46 pm
  • Your test platform may literally be incapable of handling large amounts of users, as sometimes it is easier/practical to start small and build larger either from a hardware or software perspective for development.
  • Starting small until it is semi-stable and then making it larger later makes it much easier to troubleshoot.
  • Public Relations can drastically backlash if you release a product and it does not work, and OPEN BETA is just that, a released product. Perfect example would be the multitude of games that chose to release a closed beta into an open beta and suffered heavy PR due to users expecting everything to "work" and only be missing a few features and not suffer from any glitches or resets or other things, even closed betas (like DUST514) suffered from this PR backlash once it had a lot of closed betatesters of a thousand instead of a few dozen.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on December 11, 2012, 09:38:33 pm
Bump.
Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: kinngrimm on December 11, 2012, 09:41:42 pm
To increase the transparency on the project we are looking for programmers out of the community (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-enhancment-project/msg674044/#msg674044) to work with us on the pro´ject and therefor are able to reasure the community that the code isn't dangerous in any sense and can be installed without security risks.

Title: Re: Cheating or No?
Post by: Lt_Anders on December 12, 2012, 01:37:57 am
Well I believe this thread is done. I'm going to go and lock it now. PM me if you want it UNLOCKED.