Cheating or No?

[Gingerpussy]

I am not saying cmpx gave us something, but i remember 1 incident when the reinforcement time was changed.
Some Clans got this info we did not, we lost some battles due to it but that's just a example.

I remember as well when major changes was done that it was good to ask cmpx on details, instead of going to forum and ask. And at that time that really helped.

I am however trying to focus on how bad something is vs the other, example stealing a chocolate bar vs robbing a bank is very different criminal actions. And punished very differently.

So then you can set ur own opinion about it, i see UIF trying to make strategu sveiwer tool as just as bad as multiaccounting, and that's ridiculous.


my opinion about stuff that a legal ilegal and semi legal.

1. Multiaccounting, forever ban
2. Duping equip or gold, forever ban
3. duping troops, forever ban
4.  find a bug that dupe something and tell the dEVS, taken away the gold/equip.
5. Using gliches in strat battles, allowed
6. laying ladders on ground to prevent cav, i think legal
7. setting up ladder like last siege UIF ladderd up all over making towers of ladder, 1 week ban.
8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.
9. Using a script with Devs blessing, legal

[Noctivagant]

Cooties, thats exactly why we offered you "neutrality", we didn't offer you to join Anti-UIF. We simply didn't see Nords together with SOME of these guys. I'm sorry that our message didn't get through as how it should be. I mean a good thing now, I hope you understand it.

[Goretooth]

So cooties is perfect and his friends can do no wrong?

[kinngrimm]

....
At the very least if someone wants to make something, post about the idea so all would know and be able to read about it, tell chadz of course, and then we would have no issues at all; BUT if people don't know, and there's no informal post on the forum and a add-on/tool is discovered to be providing unfair advantages to select players, those involve should definitely be permanently banned, no exceptions. Anything else makes it a shady untrustworthy operation.
...

Devs and admins informed: check

User name - Player name - Join date    
harald - Mace - 03/11/12
Fallen_Tomas - Fallen_Tomas - 03/11/12
talked to Meow, Harald and Thomas through irc and they told me they would contact chadz and inform him too.
Sources were made available at that point too.
=>
Only like a week before this, there was a first version out after about a months development, where you could actually see something, still too buggy at first to show, would have been embarrising.

Now i thought also to include you at that point into this cooties, but due to the crap i was confronted at that time, the wild accusations of S&D stealing where Mercs accused me and the wolves fucking up a possible alliance between them and Nords, i just was not in the mood to share you(1 Wolf carrying 6 trade goods out of your area ^^, many not grasping the implications of S&D ... Nords as Mercs overracted out of my view). Later on as you may remember we had a talk in irc where i shared some of my thoughts of what would be possible with greasmonkey scripting if it would be taken to its full extent, at that time the Harald and chadz but already knew and i didn't see a pressuring nature to tell you everything as also i have no fucking clue who always in the dev/admin team is on the need to know base and who not, the big chiefs knew so they could decide for themselves who to include and who not.

You mentioned being a Project Manager, i am more(workaholic) or less(breakdown and struggling)  a programmer so we both still have different view points onto a development cycle. I want perfection i want the fucking time to get it done right in the first time, Project Manager pressuring is not bad in a economical sense but not for quality when ressources are already rare, so having something what hasn't been ready to show not made public, i really don't see a big deal there.
First months nothing was able to use anyways, Guika was preparing Servers, installing and configuring software and slowly starting with programming. Then when i first registrated, there was still nothing to see on the map, the website was ready, then there was a raw form of the script ready, but still not working with firefox as Guika is chrome fan boy, then i saw the first dots and after getting bugs out the devs/admins had been informed.

As also stated before, i was impatient at some point as i didn't always saw the improvements which had been possible and with a programming background you see a lot of possibilities others don't. That combined with the phantastic experience with chort, where i had made suggestions in his eye candy script topic and those suggestions sometimes were instantly were included, made me thinking. So i asked a few months back in my clan who were able and willing to help to enhance strategus capabilites and get rid of some of the micromanagment aspects aswell make some ground work which later on could be used to get a better balancing done. Read the suggestions below and you see there are already some thoughts onto what now is set in motion(some other of these suggestions i only posted here again that they may be seen in this very frequented thread  ).

posts about idears: check

« on: 15 October 2012, 17:48:34 »
Priorized Battles for Factions
« on: 10 September 2012, 17:30:22 »
join crpg Ladder System with Strategus Faction + message system
« on: 22 October 2011, 23:43:01 »
Faction Treasure Chest & Goods
« on: 06 September 2011, 18:49:16 »
Account sharing & overproduction & players without factions
« on: 24 July 2011, 14:30:47 »
Problems - Solutions v4

So out of my perspective, i did everything correctly. Imagine my surprise when Thovex used the shared knowledge to get his propaganda out and as Smoothrich mentioned yes this could have been handled better in terms of Public Relations, but tbh the only mistake i see i made was to take in guys who couldn't keep their mouth shut till this tool would be in a state which is a) bug-free and b) has more of the things already included i wanted to be seen accomplished.
http://strat-viewer.guiennet.com/site/Home/About

EDIT: another suggestion which i still think could be solve some issues about  S&D a secondary S&D pool for singleplayers without factions and those singleplayer gaining PP which they can use to buff propserity aswell as gear whereby factions then really would like to have singl player traders coming to their fiefs, factions getting more fiefs open with low taxes ... f.e. 100k gold earned after taxes = 1PP

[Nessaj]

@Nocti, you should just have given us the castle and we'd been on good terms It might have been an unfair demand but Strategus is about control and war. We needed that castle to keep our borders clean of S&D thievery, not having it was a huge weakness. Water under the bridge though. We'll never see eye to eye with the tactics you utilize to play the game anyway.


@Ginger, I'll mostly agree with you on everything except number nine of course -- also I think glitching should have ramifications.

Just because the devs sanctioned a script doesn't make it any less of a rotten affair for everyone else.

To take an example - not to 100% compare - look at The War Z, the devs there are quite despicable:
http://n4g.com/news/1129770/the-warz-team-blacklists-customers-asking-for-refunds
http://n4g.com/news/1104013/players-express-concern-over-unprofessional-the-war-z-developers
http://n4g.com/news/1130831/the-rocky-road-for-the-war-z

They may have the authority to do these things, but that doesn't change the outcome of their actions, doesn't make what they do right.

The one and only reason for backlash here is the secrecy, and that select few have been able to use this script -- and lesser prior versions of it even longer -- where they've gained huge unfair advantages over everyone else. That's not debatable, that is a fact, per definition. IMO a huge mistake was made here to green-light this in secrecy, without a single post on the forums, at all, even though that such a forum post would only inspire ideas. Hopefully other "enhancement"-scripts in the future will now have their existence announced before being used. Otherwise good luck to all the clans with programmers, may the most dedicated win...


@kinngrimm, all of that doesn't matter at all. Either you should have informed people or the devs should have made it clear to you that you should have. It does not surprise me that you see it that way given you are a previous cheater -- not to ruffle your feathers but that's your legacy, which shows you clearly have a radical view of what is appropriate and what isn't. The fact that there were a tool as powerful as this, in circulation in various lesser forms FOR MONTHS, without a forum post saying it is now actively being tested, that is per definition SECRECY. Your opinion doesn't matter in regards to that, facts and actions do, and yours in regards to this sir, suck.

You might have done it in parts for the better of the community, but I'm certain that is by far not the only reason, at all, and not the number one reason you went ahead with it. It also still doesn't make it right, doesn't make any of this right no matter what intentions. You kept it secret, you shared it for months in lesser versions.

You should have written in one of those many 'idea posts' that by the way do not disclosure anything what so ever, they're simply actual suggestions to add into the game, no note of any kind as to an actual tool being built and tested, no orderly conditions and circumstances; No matter if this was green-light or not, there should have been a forum post, and IMO even with a list of those who would have access to it as beta testers. That much is just common courtesy given its enormous potential.

The excuse that you wanted to have a solid product first is a farce. We're talking about a tiny tool for a small Indie game mod, not a commercial production of any kind. You are free to do what you want, there's no reputation here given no one knows who you are in this community, there's no deadlines, there's no headlines. There is absolutely zero reasoning for keeping something as powerful as this a secret. Zero. No one would care if you had posted and then later failed to create it, plenty of others have done so with numerous projects.

Everyone would hail this tool had you been honest and straight forward but now all the facts and actions show us that this was most likely available long before you contacted the devs, shared out between friends, interestingly enough only friends that would benefit you in Strategus, and then first now it comes out into the public, after months...

This is deceptive and cheating. That's part deux for you right?


@Goretooth

(click to show/hide)

[Falka]

8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.

8.a) claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, but managing their accounts in strat by one person, perma ban. 

[kinngrimm]

... Either you should have informed ...

i did inform those who needed to know as stated and also confirmed

... It does not surprise me that you see it that way given you are a previous cheater

am i now? Stop the slander or can't you engage on a civil level?

...

well seems not so, but at least you have it all figured out now haven't you ^^. You have one of these alien mindreading thingies don't you
... or wait
are you butthurt?( """not to ruffle your feathers but that's your legacy""" )
see that happens, when people mirrow the people they engage in communication.

... it seems that clan relationships are deciding stances in this discussion. This is really not helpful at all. I know it's hard to do, but try to judge it from an objective point of view.

this

No one would care if you had posted and then later failed to create it, plenty of others have done so with numerous projects.

i would have cared and as always aren't we all closest to our self first and overall.

[Ulmarth]

We go two steps forward with this game which may i add is a BETA (ppl talkin like strat is all about war, no its about testing and tryin things) we choose to make a tool to make things easier and cooler.

The cRPG community throw sticks and spit at us saying were cheaters due to the recent retards gettin banned.

Figures we go 2 steps forward then 3 back cos retards wanna win at blob pushing.

Im havin a whiskey and laughin at all ur stupid replys.

PS i never used this tool as i never played strat but i know about it. And in this whole time Kinn was super excited about releasing sumthin for the community. Makes sense that the community shot it down

Your all jokes hahaha

Kind Regards Ulmarth The Scotsman

[dodnet]

8. claiming to have a son, daughter, wife or whatever and don't have it, perma ban.

Being permabanned for a RL fantasy is so harsh 

[Nessaj]

i did inform those who needed to know as stated and also confirmed

You did not inform anyone except devs and those receiving the betas = secrecy. You cannot change this definition. There isn't two sides to fact.

That clans dictate the discussion in this is complete bull too, at least in reference to my writings (why else mention it in your post?):
I have zero stake in Strategus, zero stake in the UIF. Nothing what so ever here to gain or win. I don't play and I don't intent on playing again due to actions such as those you have taken throughout your C-RPG career.
All of my writings are completely from the side line as a veteran observer in the community.

That I call you a cheater is because you did cheat, you lied to multiple clans for hours, days, via voice communication, which nullified a legit and completely fair war which everyone was having fun with, and replaced it with multiple clan quitting due to your acts, made the map and round stagnate for ages, killed the third alliance on the map which ever since have only seen the two UIF + Anti-UIF alliances, so great job on that too. Finishing off by wiping the last few clans off the map in Strategus with 10000x1 numbers making the attacks nothing more than a quick formality (and still with morning attacks of course). That IMO make's you a cheater.

All these facts above does not take away the achievement this tool would be if standardized. It just makes you a shady unfair person. I'm confident everyone here would love to see this tool implemented. That has never been the question raised, or the issue, at all. The work is highly appreciated. Your methods and secrecy are not.

Projects with powerful enhancements that severely cut management or otherwise should be in the open for all to see and follow from the get-go. Not done in secrecy. No matter what.

Let's just agree to disagree. It isn't like I will convince you otherwise nor you me.

[dodnet]

That I call you a cheater is because you did cheat, you lied to multiple clans for hours, days, via voice communication, which nullified a legit and completely fair war which everyone was having fun with, and replaced it with multiple clan quitting due to your acts, made the map and round stagnate for ages, killed the third alliance on the map which ever since have only seen the two UIF + Anti-UIF alliances, so great job on that too. Finishing off by wiping the last few clans off the map in Strategus with 10000x1 numbers making the attacks nothing more than a quick formality (and still with morning attacks of course). That IMO make's you a cheater.

And this IMO makes YOU Cooties a complete dickhead. 

[Goretooth]

Did nords quit strat before or after they attacked the banned grey order fiefs? Wouldn't getting information like that before anyone else be consider cheating?
Guess a tool would do that

[Tyr_]

Cooties, you say that you are fed up by all the lying from and between other clanleaders, but i can tell you one thing right now, you are as much of a lying scumbag as the rest of us is, including myself.
The only really honest clanleader i have met so far is Andswaru, and even though i had/have some troubles with him I highly respect his honest attitude.
Just to jump to the past quickly: First you said you wanted Ismirala Castle at any cost, so did we, then when we got it you told me that you have no interest in it and it was just some communication problems since it was okins (? not sure anymore) idea that you should take it, but the rest doesnt want it. Then you wanted it again.

I take the responsibility for the nighttime changes & handing the castle over to Alpha, it was my idea to do so and i kept Andswaru busy in diplomacy talks until the nighttime got activated - not one of my most glorious moments - but it was necessary since your war declaration has hit us out of nowhere while we were focused on the south, we always wanted good relations to you and therefore you catched us unprepared.
Also we never denied the existence of the anti-uif, therefore you were in war with templars the second you declared war on us, giving the castle to alpha was my last attempt to keep a peacefull relation to Nords, since i can trust Alpha to secure our southern border when he has this castle more than i could trust you at this point. Since you also had agreements with the templars gave me some hope that you may put more faith into them than into Mercenaries.
Btw, declaring war when your army is on our doorstep isn't the nice way either, so do not act like you are on a moral highground compared to other clans.

The only point when i ever was seriously disappointed about Nords was when you kept defending the cheaters.

You say there is no bad or good clans in strategus, its just 2 sides of a coin.
I agree, when we were in war with FCC and HRE in Strat 2 there was no bad side. Neither was when Fallens and Hosp fought each other on NA.

But the FACT that Union, Greys, Empire and Vendetta, 3 of the 4 big UIF factions received bans for multiaccounting/accountsharing makes it clear that there is a bad side.
I do not accuse Nords of cheating. Also i do not accuse Drz, actually i have more respect for them than for any other UIF clan, and im glad to see that there were no bans given to them in the latest waves, they are the only "clean" big uif clan and have a really good organisation.
And instead of accepting the consequences of their cheating they now act like they were saints and the developers were biased.

No matter how long a post is, a GTX is still a GTX.

If you dont even trust chadz that bans were handed out unbiased than it really is time for you to leave strategus, but don't expect anyone to feel sorry for it, all i see now is that it has paid of not to cheat and that justice was done.

Furthermore i can ensure you that we do not use Strat Viewer, I tested it for a few days but it is, as ginger said, a security risk which i'm not willing to take because of a game.
And also i have to back up kinngrimm here. Nords got the tool, a faction he trusts, but why should factions that are known for cheating beta-test it? I appreciate the idea of this tool and i hope it gets implemented to strat some day, but atm its too risky and it really doesnt pay off.

Also cooties, all the "gamebreaking ways of using tools" you discribed earlier can easily be done with sending PM's in the crpg site or talking in skype/ts - go there, forest east of Dhirim, the top tree. There is enough spots on the map to give exact informations to people.
Moreover i actually like the Idea of creating a coordinate system, it would make it easier to tell people where to go and also they can tell you in which sector they spotted for example an army.

[Molly]

I am not really involved in Strat - just to much of a hassle to play and it's kinda boring. Not mention all the other hatred between clans, so-called-leaders and other people who get all fired up for no reason... I mean, I actually thought that there are some intelligent people in this community but this thread has so much stupidity in it.

First of all - as a guy who did some programming himself, kinda professionally even, I can fully understand to NOT release anything until its not working in a at least acceptable way, I can fully understand to invite just a few people to an Alpha or even earlier release to avoid the full shit-posting this community is - like displayed in this thread - capable of (includes Vibe and unfortunately Cooties too).

Just look at the crap chadz, cmp, Paul and Harald have to take every single day in the depths of this forum - and then you people have the guts to complain about Guika/Kinngrimm that they don`t tell you about a piece of script that isn't even close to working properly? (No, I haven't seen it but knowing a bit about Kinngrimms real life professional background, I actually trust him about this)

Best thing is even: If I had known that we are allowed to program things for Strat I certainly would have... Oh please, gtfo already. I bet asking cmp about a permission to do something never crossed your mind, huh? Besides, since accusing people without any backing seems to be okay, who tells us that you, Cooties, never actually did something w/o letting the whole all-mighty community know?

The whole behaviour in this thread is a shame and in all honesty... if I were Guika, who seems to be the lead programmer, I would just throw the code into your faces and tell every single one of you to "Go fuck yourselves".

[Vibe]

First of all - as a guy who did some programming himself, kinda professionally even, I can fully understand to NOT release anything until its not working in a at least acceptable way, I can fully understand to invite just a few people to an Alpha or even earlier release to avoid the full shit-posting this community is - like displayed in this thread - capable of (includes Vibe and unfortunately Cooties too).

As Cooties stated, there are much better and much less shady ways to do this. Of course you're not going to invite everyone to first tests. But they could've been open about it, as in announced it to the public, without needing to invite everyone - "hey look we're developing this cool thing here, it's still pretty shitty, but yeah, should be open to everyone once ready, until then we'll be selecting a few testers" - and have several different testers, a proper closed beta, not just from one side. How this was not at least forced by the devs once it was found out... That's what we're trying to point out. The way this was handled throws a suspicious shade on it.