cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: a_bear_irl on March 22, 2012, 04:00:29 am
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i can't speak for EU, so if things are different on EU, well, that's how it is. anyway
on NA it has become the norm for the last 2-3 minutes of a round to be 10-15 guys against 1 horse crossbowman, riding around shooting, fighting, but of course due to the nature of the class he is very difficult to kill even if the "winning" team has ranged of its own. nobody really enjoys this except for the one HA. i suggest motf be changed to automatically pop if 35% of one team is ranged, as this would force the HA (and other delaying ranged) into confrontation.
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MOTF needs a change, period. It isn't just Horse Xbowman. It's anyone who isn't engaging or is dragging out the round. (Hiding in buildings) There should be a mechanic that doesn't require an admin or kick poll to be used.
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Yep. Fix it.
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I counted about 6-8 Wannabe Rohypnols ( ON THE SAME TEAM. Hope that makes it clearer for some of you ) We even watched Semenstrom 89 try to kill an unarmed peasant while he was on horse back. It took 2 minutes and the peasant landed more blows.
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Here's an idea. Make a Crossbow that has a crank on it and is the only one usable on horseback. Then make it horribly inaccurate and do less damage.
Problem solved! :D
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Horse XBow vs:
1H + shield: bump, then shoot
2H: avoid, shoot
Pikes: avoid, shoot
Throwing: avoid, shoot
Archery: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Xbows: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Cav: avoid, shoot
They have no true counter.
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Make MOTF pop up at 1:30 regardless of remaining team composition.
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Proposal: If there are less than five players remaining on one team have MotF come up at 1:30. This would likely require checking the placement of the MotF flags on every map currently on the rotation. Though many maps have sensible MotF spots many still don't.
I'm personally content for more rounds to draw than other folks seem to want, but I'd prefer if they weren't drawn by practically impotent HA and Xbow duels.
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I don't know if you guys have played deluge, but in order to reload their weapons, their horses have to be going at a slow trot. That is the huge problem with horse xbow imo, they can run you over, while shooting you, and immediately reload before you even get up. Realism-wise, it makes perfect sense for the moderately difficult task of reloading a bolt on a moving horse require slow speeds, and balance-wise, you would fix all these sport-car xbowmen.
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I don't know if you guys have played deluge, but in order to reload their weapons, their horses have to be going at a slow trot. That is the huge problem with horse xbow imo, they can run you over, while shooting you, and immediately reload before you even get up. Realism-wise, it makes perfect sense for the moderately difficult task of reloading a bolt on a moving horse require slow speeds, and balance-wise, you would fix all these sport-car xbowmen.
You know, that's a pretty decent suggestion. Thanks for pointin that out, hope its implemented.
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I've been banging on about the MOTF kicking in earlier for an aeon. I think it would be really interesting for it to kick in say 2min into a battle, there should still be heaps of people alive and it could create a great fight (or be a total shit storm).
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Make MOTF pop up at 1:30 regardless of remaining team composition.
This is all that needs to be done. There doesn't need to be a nerf to horse crossbowmen honestly... the issue of late has simply been the fact that due to banner balance one team ends up getting stacked with a bunch of horse xbowmen which is just as gamebreaking as if one team has all the archers or all the cavalry or all the pikemen etc. I know that I've had to pick up a crossbow sidearm lately and honestly if more people did that it wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Anyways, having MOTF as a target to shoot for the end of most maps would put an interesting twist on battle... the important thing would be that it randomly spawns on every map to prevent early round camping.
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i suggest motf be changed to automatically pop if 35% of one team is ranged
Flags would spawn immediately on the small EU servers then. :lol:
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Horse XBow vs:
1H + shield: bump, then shoot
2H: avoid, shoot
Pikes: avoid, shoot
Throwing: avoid, shoot
Archery: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Xbows: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Cav: avoid, shoot
They have no true counter.
Horse archers counter horse crossbows very nicely, but with the archer nerfs they made horse xbow have less natural counters on the battle field (I've seen maybe 6 horse archers in the last 4 months).
Also MotF needs to spawn a certain time in the map, I don't care what fancy math or algorithm you use, or if you just make it spawn at 1:30 left (or another time). Just fucking do it already.
I counted about 6-8 Wannabe Rohypnols. We even watched Semenstrom 89 try to kill an unarmed peasant while he was on horse back. It took 2 minutes and the peasant landed more blows. CAP THE HORSE XBOW LIMIT!!
Nothing wrong with horse crossbow. The problem (for me) is when they are all on the same team because they all have the same banner. 6 horse crossbows on one team is unbalanced. They would at least be able to "counter" each other some what if they were on opposite teams.
Banner balance is nice, but teams need to be balanced first on what equipment is equipped.
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They should script MOTF so that it appears randomly every time at a set time so that it can't be camped. Then having it spawn at 1:30 would be fine.
Otherwise, it will turn into "Battle over the MOTF spawn point" every round.
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honestly the need to do something about it, even from a realism standpoint, xbows on horseback would be utter garbage, and would take FOREVER to reload, Rachet system btw..
xbow cav are honestly ruining the NA community... imo...
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This is a big problem that needs to be addressed. It is far too cheap of a build in terms of cost of gold, skill points needed, and playstyle. It has no counter, given they all ride arabians with 24+ agi and have insane manuverability making it near impossible to hit with ranged, and other cav cannot catch them. Every round is now taking the full duration because a handful of these players. They won't submit until they have shot every bolt either and they have 36+ of them. As some have suggested crossbows reloaded from horseback need a crank, and it should be EXPENSIVE and innacurate. Another was is to make them get off their horse for every shot, when they are the last left they cannot disengage to reload or it is delaying. This will force them to carry a melee weapon and be aggresive when it comes down to the end. People are starting to refuse to play on NA_1 and its getting worse every day.
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I don't mind HX until the final few minutes, when the last man standing is nearly always a HX that will ride around for 2-3 min.
I admit there are a small percentage of rounds they should play out, but there are many, many rounds where it's 1v5+ and we get to watch 2-5 min of firing, then they hop off of the horse without bolts and suicide. Why waste the time of 80+ other people?
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yeah im glad i dont pay for this game. everyday is the same thing and its not even different people making HX's its the same gay Semen crew. Just in battle the other day saw one of the guys knock out 9 guys yeah impressive. . . then after 2 and a half minutes of waiting he runs out of bolts rides his horse into the opposing team to suicide, because he doesnt have a melee weapon and a limited amount of strength .
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Well i agree with 2 things
1. Make motf turn on at about 1:30 - 2 min left of the round
or
2. The horse has to go at a slow speed to reload, if the horse goes too fast, the person stops reloading.
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They ride arabians and I dont think making them trot is going to be that effective when they can blast to full speed in a few seconds. They can still trample you trotting...it has happened to me, turn around trample, turn around trample. Or they have to run off, slow trot, run back and shoot. Atleast make them get off and count is as delaying when they do it at the end of a round.
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Fix a lot of the pitfalls with MoTF and you alleviate most of the problems but in order to fully balance xobw cav in this repsec is to either reduce or remove bump damage. Or make bumps inflict damage as well. That way when MoTF spawns they can't just newb trample you to death.
=
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Simply having MOTF spawn at 1:30 left on the map regardless of any other circumstance would fix plenty of shit in this game. There will be no more draws due to xbow cav, campers, delayers, etc.
Is xbow cav really annoying? You bet.
Is it OP? Not really
I guarantee the bitching would stop if MOTF was forced to spawn.
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They need 2-6 less skill points to be effect vs HA, it costs less, hits harder, and they dont have a small window to release the shot. Why is this not OP? In comparison it is stronger in every way....
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They need 2-6 less skill points to be effect vs HA, it costs less, hits harder, and they dont have a small window to release the shot. Why is this not OP? In comparison it is stronger in every way....
I understand you are biased because you are enraged at all the HX, but don't ignore the HA's advantages. HA's advantage is with the speed at which they can fire off their shots. They can fire 3 in the time it takes for a HX to shoot one bolt. A 7/30 HX build is way more fragile as well. They have 42 HP and wear weak armor.
To say HX is really easy is beyond me. I did one that was a STF and found that landing hits was very challenging. I thought it significantly more difficult than when I played an archer or a thrower... my scores were alot worse as HX as well. I encourage you, before spouting bullshit, to play one. Show us that even players with mediocre skill can hop on a horse/xbow and do well. I am willing to bet that you'll suck at it, like most of the others.
Rohypnol enrages you beyond reason. Because of this, you believe that this class is overpowered and cry for nerfs.
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You are really going to say a HA can fire more shots for less damage and less accurate at a higher gold and skill point cost is an advantage? For a horse archer to have 1/2 the piercing damage has to pay 5k a stack for arrows versus 2.5k, and its 36 vs 45 shots. It doesn't add up. I fail to see how that is an advantage.... Also you should grow up and learn to use argument versus insults.
They both need atleast 24 agi as well so they are both squishy....what is your point again?
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Show us that even players with mediocre skill can hop on a horse/xbow and do well.
Actually that's the problem:
They don't do well. You just can't kill them. And as long as they are riding around, incompetently firing bolts into the wilderness, they "aren't leeching" and the round just drags on. It's archers on roofs but at least with archers on roofs, everyone can bring a ladder. Not everyone can ride a horse.
So yes, even mediocre players can be an HX, be 100% ineffective on the battlefield and still drag the match out just by avoiding everyone and firing from 100m away.
I've seen more draws in the past month than I have in my entire previous 10 generations. My complaint is not that HX are overpowered -- my complaint is they have no natural counters and frequently turn matches into a draw despite absolutely no chance of winning. When the match is 1 vs 12 with 2 minutes left, that HX doesn't even have enough time to kill 12 people, especially since even the good ones have a hit rate of maybe 1 in 5 shots.
HX is not an effective combat class.
It's a troll class.
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Actually that's the problem:
They don't do well. You just can't kill them. And as long as they are riding around, incompetently firing bolts into the wilderness, they "aren't leeching" and the round just drags on. It's archers on roofs but at least with archers on roofs, everyone can bring a ladder. Not everyone can ride a horse.
So yes, even mediocre players can be an HX, be 100% ineffective on the battlefield and still drag the match out just by avoiding everyone and firing from 100m away.
I've seen more draws in the past month than I have in my entire previous 10 generations. My complaint is not that HX are overpowered -- my complaint is they have no natural counters and frequently turn matches into a draw despite absolutely no chance of winning. When the match is 1 vs 12 with 2 minutes left, that HX doesn't even have enough time to kill 12 people, especially since even the good ones have a hit rate of maybe 1 in 5 shots.
HX is not an effective combat class.
It's a troll class.
I am in agreement with you. I was merely responding to the amount of people saying its an easy to play, overpowered class. As I posted previously, all that is needed is for MOTF to be changed to automatically pop up with 1:30 left on the clock.
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HX is not an effective combat class.
The class is effective. The majority of players using it aren't. When hunted they go down easily as well. The majority of players who could don't bother.
HA vs HX - HA wins.
The problem is the ability to drag out the rounds for those who suck at it anyhow. Any other class would be dead with so little skill, and those few remaining dedicated HA's learned long ago not to drag it out. HX need to learn the same lesson.
Or fix MOTF.
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here my sweet perspective... I suck.. You are much better than I ever thought about being.. im probably ranked as the number 1 worst all around player this game in all honesty, its crazy right. so i mean if I can do something really well that means you can probably easily do it better than me.. no matter what it is.. we also have the same skill base at everything except your 90 percent better at it than i am.. so anything that i do well should obviously be nerfed because it just would not make sense for a baddie like me to do really well at something.. man its a good thing that horse xbowing is here in the game.. i could never find another way to kill anyone else.. even when I LARP on my free time, i am a horse crossbower.. its jus tso fun! do you think this really helps? tell me how i can be as good as you.. i need tips.. oh and can we make this game as realistic as possible plz.. i take this stuff ultra serious
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Rohy, that might have been one of the dumbest replies I have ever read. Sure you can be a good horse xbow, but a bad horse xbow still makes the games take way too long. Also, as mentioned, you have no real counter. Stop taking it personally and spewing some irrelevant argument.
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you sound mad also.. hrm
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Rohy, that might have been one of the dumbest replies I have ever read. Also, as mentioned, you have no real counter. Stop taking it personally and spewing some irrelevant argument.
Wrong. This thread is full of people wanting to nerf it into uselessness in order to keep it from being used because.....people are dragging out the rounds. That's a dumb reply and not relevant to the issue, which is the ability of 1 player to make the round go the full time limit or draw the game. They also have very real counters. HA beats HX. Archers with aim kill HX. Xbows with aim kill HX. An effective HX using charge coming in range can be killed by throwing. What it takes is people doing the job their class is good at. HA needs to chase and kill the HX instead of the easy targets. Archers need to target HX instead of spamming into grouped up melee for the easy hits. Xbows need to do the same thing.
The issue is the ability of quite a few classes to draw out the round. (Anyone on horse, kiting archers, people holed up in a small fort) MOTF needs to be changed to address this issue across the board. HX just highlights the issue. So quit calling to nerf a class just because 1: It can be very effective except that 2: 90% of players who try aren't effective but 3: they try anyhow because they see someone being effective.
Nerfing a class isn't the answer to resolve delaying. Though we all know this is the same lobby who has had athletics nerfed to dust to keep those annoying Agility players from dancing, those annoying archers from kiting, and now want those annoying Pew on Pony to stop using their horses. I'm not surprised to see it here.
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I never said nerf the class. I said the spec allows bad players to make the games take way too long(the part you conveniently deleted in the quote). Rohy is a good horse crossbow. But I was saying that skill has nothing to do with it. I'm all for motf being fixed in order to stop this.
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The issue is the ability of quite a few classes to draw out the round. (Anyone on horse, kiting archers, people holed up in a small fort) MOTF needs to be changed to address this issue across the board.
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Im not saying HA and HX is easy, but HX has a clear advantage. Keeping level 30 in mind....
HX doesnt need PD which gives 4-6 extra skill points. Can do 8wm 3if, or 5 IF. Advantage, crossbow
Crossbow 6.5k + Bolts 7.5k(Steel x3) = 14k......... Bow 8k + arrows 15k(bodkins x3) = 23k. Advantage, crossbow
(Before WPF, and Xbow can get higher WPF)
Crossbow + bolts = 52p base damage. Horn bow + Bodkin = 24p. Add in 5 PD(70%) = 40.8p base. Advantage, crossbow
36 shots on crossbow at 52p = 1872 damage. 45 shots from a bow at 40.8p = 1836. Close but given that a bow is harder to aim due to the limited shot window AND having to land more while moving, clear advantage for crossbow.
Also due to the fact crossbow can hold their shot and wait for the perfect moment, they have a massive advanatage in picking their shot which is what HA/HX is all about. In what advantage is there in being a HA? I really don't see one. There is a reason there is always a HX is alive at the end of the round. There is a reason they are swarming the servers. If they arent combat effective they wouldn't be making 10v5 turn into 1v5. I have seen ever worse odds get screwed. Whatever, I like to read and it is giving me plenty of time, thank you HX.
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What do we fear more? Horse archer or Horse Xbow men?
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What do we fear more? Horse archer or Horse Xbow men?
I'd honestly say I fear Duke of Discobeats ATS more than I fear Rohypnol, to take two of the more successful players of each class.
What's the most standard Horse Crossbow build anyway? I was using 7/30 which severely limited melee weapon looting ability. The 5 HA was just too nice to pass up although it left me really squishy.
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I'd honestly say I fear Duke of Discobeats ATS more than I fear Rohypnol, to take two of the more successful players of each class.
What's the most standard Horse Crossbow build anyway? I was using 7/30 which severely limited melee weapon looting ability. The 5 HA was just too nice to pass up although it left me really squishy.
I've tried it with 9/27 and it works well. You don't need a whole lot of HA because you get fairly close (but out of melee and pike range) and use the speed bonus on charge for damage.
@Crazyi - The HX gets one shot at the HA. After that the HA fast shooting and similar horse type keeps up with and interrupts the HX reload and game over.
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If you would get off your horse at the end of the round or at least switch to melee cav or lancer mode, nobody would care about HX.
When you ride around, never coming within 50m of anyone and there's 3 minutes left on the clock and it's you versus 20 enemies and you drag it out into a draw, that's when we declare you are a troll and HX needs to be dealt with.
It's the same thing as archers on roofs, only worse.
They nerfed archers on roofs and that had more direct counters than what you're doing.
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at 9/27 a HA is keeping up with you....and you cant out manuever his shots on an arabian? really? Second I NEVER see a HA riding on an arabian or courser.... So the one advantage a HA has is it can beat a HX, which I dont personally agree with. Every other category is in favor of the HX. How many HA are there on the daily basis(0-2)? How many HX are there(6+)? Lets have Rohy and the best HA you find have a duel? It's not easy, but its cheesy.
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This is a MOTF issue.
This is not a horse xbow issue.
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here my sweet perspective...
Oh hi.
Way to post a troll post in a thread about you trolling in game. As the majority of the thread indicates, and the majority of the hate in-game shows, the problem is not the balance of the HX. The problem is you and clan running around 1 v xx for 2-3 min while you run out of bolts, then suicide while 80+ people get to watch you trolling. I couldn't give a shit if you kill the entire team as a HX, go for it, just don't waste everyone's sweet time delaying when it's obvious you will lose. Continue to play out those rounds you have a chance (and 1v17 is clearly not a chance), I've seen some great endings by ss.
If you didn't continuously troll in-game, all day, almost every match until an admin hops on, and continue to pull that trolling into the forums, this thread wouldn't exist specific to HX.
So either you are trying to prove a point, or you believe winning the internetz is cool.
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i have so much shit to talk on this thread , im done my brain farted. i just wanna say i seen fully armored players get baned for a simple teamwound without warning (OLD ATS DAYS). i like to think killing a HAX is like going to a carnival and tryin to score a loop around a bottle when you know the bottle is perfect size with the loop so it makes it almost impossible to get, so you try leaning foward to get a closer shot but this bottle runs away. i dont see the difference in being nekkid without a weapon, killing mutiple people but NOT ENOUGH and just giving up and suicide. i like to quote an ADMIN on why they cant ban such SATANS.QUOTE ( oh its because hes still engaged ) END QUOTE. So your saying if im completly nekkid running around punching and typing thats not being engaged. HMMMMMM derp wait HMMMMMMMM omg my brain doesnt wanna HMMM IT BROKE *EXPLODE* :evil:
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I agree, the problem with rounds dragging out has nothing to do with horse crossbow, it has to do with MotF needing to spawn at random intervals EVERY SINGLE ROUND. A round should never draw, ever.
I honestly am frustrated with horse crossbowmen because I can't do shit against them with my champ courser and balanced heavy lance. I can either block the whole way into them, or try to stab then and I get killed (my speed going right into their bolt).
I don't think they really need to be balanced. They have counters, the horse archer. It's just that not many people are horse archer these days (probably has a lot to do with the developers constantly nerfing shit, like archery, so now instead of horse archers you have horse crossbows).
Also, other horse crossbows can easily counter another horse crossbow...but since it's mainly SemenStorm banners who are the horse crossbows, they are always on the same team.
I think the other issue besides MotF needs to brought up: team balance. Banner balance is great, and I agree you should try to balance by banner (when possible), that being said, teams should be balanced evenly based on the equipment people have equipped.
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Infantry could always, oh I don't know, stick with your archers and keep them from getting lanced in the back while they are shooting at the Horse Xbow. But hey, Rambo can't be bothered. It's easier to complain on the forums.
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I just posted this in another thread, but I think they should make the turn radius/agility of the horse diminished while you are reloading. Or make it so that it takes longer to reload on horse than on foot. Polearms swing 30% slower on horseback. Maybe reload should be 30% longer on horse.
Ideally I'd leave reload time the same and just reduce your turning agility while reloading.
Or more people would go horse archer to be able to combat horse crossbows.
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Infantry could always, oh I don't know, stick with your archers and keep them from getting lanced in the back while they are shooting at the Horse Xbow. But hey, Rambo can't be bothered. It's easier to complain on the forums.
I'm confused.
The issue is not that the HX kills 15 people at the end of the round. The issue is that the HX stays miles away, running and weaving at massive +3 Arabian speed, drawing out the round. You try hit a horse, at range, moving at that speed. How will infantry sticking with archers change this fact?
The ask is to spawn motf, so it actually gives the infantry and archers a way to end the round without twiddling their thumbs for 2-3 min.
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I'm confused.
Not surprising as there are two different conversations.
MOTF needs to be fixed for the delay issue, regardless of class.
L2Play is for all the people calling to nerf the HX class.
You try hit a horse, at range, moving at that speed.
I do it all the time. Ask the cavalry who shout out my name asking me to stop. :shock:
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You don't shoot +3 arabians who are actively trying to juke you from getting a bead on them (as they are reloading). Maybe if they are within 10-20 feet, otherwise you're not doing it consistently.
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So what if it takes 5-6 arrows to hit them at range? And I'm talking 150 yards, not 10-20 feet. All you have to do is bring down their horse. A grounded HX is a dead HX. If you can't hit a horse, there is a problem.
I use a tatar bow with over 160 WPF preferred. And I'm sure that the 10 PD archers can't hit anything beyond 20 feet. But if you want a hard hitting build that also is accurate, you can ask WarKittenz for one. Trust me, it can be done if 1: the archer bothers, and 2: somebody watches their back while they are focused 150 yards down range.
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Might as well ask archers why they don't stick together rather than run off and do their own "rambo". I probably protect archers more than just about anyone and 19 times out of 20 I end up guarding one archer because no two of them will stand within 20 feet of each other.
At any rate, archer vs HX is not a question of accuracy. You might as well have PD 10 because given the agility of the HX, the only thing you can do is throw arrows downrange and hope they accidentally dodge into your shot. If you're "aiming" then you're aiming for one of the 10 possible places he could be by the time your arrow reaches him -- did he go left fast? left slow? right fast? right slow? Did he stop? Did he start? Did he turn away? Turn towards? On a horse with that much riding skill, he could be in lots of places real quick.
Meanwhile your agility is about one tenth of his. He can more reliably shoot at you than you can shoot at him.
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Leave the archery to the archers :rolleyes: We will leave our backs to you :arrow:
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Not that it matters and apparently these forums are full of a bunch of 5 year old kids with no way to accept or counter point an argument. But let me throw in my 2 cents to the issue as I see it. Yes: MoTF is horribly broken and obviously needs a fix/alteration to improve the effectiveness of it. A static spawn timer would cure and or alleviate almost 99% of these problems especially on a lot of the NA1 "NASCAR Maps" as we dub them where teams chase each other for half the round before turning to face what is remaining. As for the "Horse Xbow Problem" as it has been stated this is how I see it. A) It's a class as viable as any other class and when played properly is very effective (i.e. counter cav, archer, HA) Therefore to suggest nerfing the class to appease our own selfish ego's would in essence perpetuate a lot of what has been dong wrongfully in the game already. However, I do feel they can be slightly imbalanced with the high level of acceleration/Maneuver of the Arabian coupled with the horse "bump" dmg makes for some retarded end round clutches. But that is a different post entirely. B) The general attitude of the people playing the class themselves is pretty much the pits I have seen many of them type in all chat taunting people saying they were legitimately there to pretty much piss people off. Now, while the class itself does not necessarily need a nerf there needs to be a serious re-defining of what it means to "delay" in my opinion. As stated in the NA rule set is "engaging the enemy as per your classes tactics dictate" to paraphrase this includes "kiting, surprise attacks, and general hit and run tactics". Fair enough I can agree with those rules they are pretty cut and dry but when these guys are "playing to their class" they are being as obnoxiously close to breaking the rules without crossing the line. With 2 mins left on the clock and generally anywhere from 5-10+ players still alive these guys are practically spitting in the face of everyone playing the game. Admins and players all in one we're all in the same boat, we all want to just get to the next round because no one wants to be that guy who got jumped to shit in the first round of a risk game and ends up having to watch the 3 hour sluggfest between the last 2 people. We want to continue playing and while they may be "playing to their class" they are wasting everyone's time playing out a round with no probable chance of winning. So while the class may not be inherently flawed the players themselves kinda are I have seen plenty of HA's and HX's like Rohyp take the honorable rout and dismount when there was no chance and if this was carried out by everyone playing HX I'd be happy. Again this comes back to a MoTF fix that would alleviate this issue. What I really don't like seeing is retarded bundle of sticks posts with childish responses from people the people who are supposed to kind of be the ones in control and impartial to a point. Now, as adults can we guide this discussion back to a balance issue and a matter of intentional douchbaggery rather than bicker and fight to a point where the original focus of this post is completely lost?
P.S. Any Dev. input would be greatly appreciated as to why or why not this kind of change has been implemented would be nice.
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Not that it matters and apparently these forums are full of a bunch of 5 year old kids with no way to accept or counter point an argument. But let me throw in my 2 cents to the issue as I see it. Yes: MoTF is horribly broken and obviously needs a fix/alteration to improve the effectiveness of it. A static spawn timer would cure and or alleviate almost 99% of these problems especially on a lot of the NA1 "NASCAR Maps" as we dub them where teams chase each other for half the round before turning to face what is remaining. As for the "Horse Xbow Problem" as it has been stated this is how I see it. A) It's a class as viable as any other class and when played properly is very effective (i.e. counter cav, archer, HA) Therefore to suggest nerfing the class to appease our own selfish ego's would in essence perpetuate a lot of what has been dong wrongfully in the game already. However, I do feel they can be slightly imbalanced with the high level of acceleration/Maneuver of the Arabian coupled with the horse "bump" dmg makes for some retarded end round clutches. But that is a different post entirely. B) The general attitude of the people playing the class themselves is pretty much the pits I have seen many of them type in all chat taunting people saying they were legitimately there to pretty much piss people off. Now, while the class itself does not necessarily need a nerf there needs to be a serious re-defining of what it means to "delay" in my opinion. As stated in the NA rule set is "engaging the enemy as per your classes tactics dictate" to paraphrase this includes "kiting, surprise attacks, and general hit and run tactics". Fair enough I can agree with those rules they are pretty cut and dry but when these guys are "playing to their class" they are being as obnoxiously close to breaking the rules without crossing the line. With 2 mins left on the clock and generally anywhere from 5-10+ players still alive these guys are practically spitting in the face of everyone playing the game. Admins and players all in one we're all in the same boat, we all want to just get to the next round because no one wants to be that guy who got jumped to shit in the first round of a risk game and ends up having to watch the 3 hour sluggfest between the last 2 people. We want to continue playing and while they may be "playing to their class" they are wasting everyone's time playing out a round with no probable chance of winning. So while the class may not be inherently flawed the players themselves kinda are I have seen plenty of HA's and HX's like Rohyp take the honorable rout and dismount when there was no chance and if this was carried out by everyone playing HX I'd be happy. Again this comes back to a MoTF fix that would alleviate this issue. What I really don't like seeing is retarded bundle of sticks posts with childish responses from people the people who are supposed to kind of be the ones in control and impartial to a point. Now, as adults can we guide this discussion back to a balance issue and a matter of intentional douchbaggery rather than bicker and fight to a point where the original focus of this post is completely lost?
P.S. Any Dev. input would be greatly appreciated as to why or why not this kind of change has been implemented would be nice.
what
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Archers on roofs vs Horse crossbow: discuss.
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Infantry could always, oh I don't know, stick with your archers and keep them from getting lanced in the back while they are shooting at the Horse Xbow. But hey, Rambo can't be bothered. It's easier to complain on the forums.
This is the case so many times its not funny. I went full xbow this gen, and 4 or 5 different rounds in the last couple of days it came down me (an xbow) and 3 other melee vs a HX. Instead of sticking in a group with pointy sticks and someone meatshielding for me to shoot down the horse... everyone abandons me and runs off by themselves trying to poke the horse.
PEOPLE.
YOUR RANGED WILL KILL THE HORSE.
STOP BEING STUPID.
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I just coded wall bounce for rageball so learn to format your wall of text or I just bounce off, not reading.
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Well, good to know posting in the forums is completely useless then. I was trying to bring the argument back into some semblance of sanity but I guess that was a waste. I guess my only question is why hasn't there been a change to MotF even though we have screamed for it. As for the horse Xbow argument no we can't nerf a class because a few douches in the game but we need to take away their ability to waste everyone's time.
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Not that it matters and apparently these forums are full of a bunch of 5 year old kids with no way to accept or counter point an argument. But let me throw in my 2 cents to the issue as I see it. Yes: MoTF is horribly broken and obviously needs a fix/alteration to improve the effectiveness of it. A static spawn timer would cure and or alleviate almost 99% of these problems especially on a lot of the NA1 "NASCAR Maps" as we dub them where teams chase each other for half the round before turning to face what is remaining. As for the "Horse Xbow Problem" as it has been stated this is how I see it. A) It's a class as viable as any other class and when played properly is very effective (i.e. counter cav, archer, HA) Therefore to suggest nerfing the class to appease our own selfish ego's would in essence perpetuate a lot of what has been dong wrongfully in the game already. However, I do feel they can be slightly imbalanced with the high level of acceleration/Maneuver of the Arabian coupled with the horse "bump" dmg makes for some retarded end round clutches. But that is a different post entirely. B) The general attitude of the people playing the class themselves is pretty much the pits I have seen many of them type in all chat taunting people saying they were legitimately there to pretty much piss people off. Now, while the class itself does not necessarily need a nerf there needs to be a serious re-defining of what it means to "delay" in my opinion. As stated in the NA rule set is "engaging the enemy as per your classes tactics dictate" to paraphrase this includes "kiting, surprise attacks, and general hit and run tactics". Fair enough I can agree with those rules they are pretty cut and dry but when these guys are "playing to their class" they are being as obnoxiously close to breaking the rules without crossing the line. With 2 mins left on the clock and generally anywhere from 5-10+ players still alive these guys are practically spitting in the face of everyone playing the game. Admins and players all in one we're all in the same boat, we all want to just get to the next round because no one wants to be that guy who got jumped to shit in the first round of a risk game and ends up having to watch the 3 hour sluggfest between the last 2 people. We want to continue playing and while they may be "playing to their class" they are wasting everyone's time playing out a round with no probable chance of winning. So while the class may not be inherently flawed the players themselves kinda are I have seen plenty of HA's and HX's like Rohyp take the honorable rout and dismount when there was no chance and if this was carried out by everyone playing HX I'd be happy. Again this comes back to a MoTF fix that would alleviate this issue. What I really don't like seeing is retarded bundle of sticks posts with childish responses from people the people who are supposed to kind of be the ones in control and impartial to a point. Now, as adults can we guide this discussion back to a balance issue and a matter of intentional douchbaggery rather than bicker and fight to a point where the original focus of this post is completely lost?
P.S. Any Dev. input would be greatly appreciated as to why or why not this kind of change has been implemented would be nice.
Well, good to know posting in the forums is completely useless then. I was trying to bring the argument back into some semblance of sanity but I guess that was a waste. I guess my only question is why hasn't there been a change to MotF even though we have screamed for it. As for the horse Xbow argument no we can't nerf a class because a few douches in the game but we need to take away their ability to waste everyone's time.
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Well, good to know posting in the forums is completely useless then. I was trying to bring the argument back into some semblance of sanity but I guess that was a waste. I guess my only question is why hasn't there been a change to MotF even though we have screamed for it. As for the horse Xbow argument no we can't nerf a class because a few douches in the game but we need to take away their ability to waste everyone's time.
Posting in the forums is only completely useless if you haven't learned the magic of proper paragraph formatting.
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And nobody has replied to my discussion topic, so I will elaborate a bit:
Why did we prevent archers from camping on roofs?
Why do we allow HX to camp on horses, which they essentially use as a mobile roof?
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Horses are mostly fragile. I would've liked to see you kill a roof to get the roof monleys from pre-patch down to where you could have a chance to kill them
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Infantry could always, oh I don't know, stick with your archers and keep them from getting lanced in the back while they are shooting at the Horse Xbow. But hey, Rambo can't be bothered. It's easier to complain on the forums.
You don't play early morning do you? When its 10v10 and there is a horse xbow the game is essentially ruined.
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Horses are mostly fragile. I would've liked to see you kill a roof to get the roof monleys from pre-patch down to where you could have a chance to kill them
Horses are extremely durable when they never get within 100m of anyone.
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Horses are extremely durable when they never get within 100m of anyone.
And then they won't hit a thing/do laughable damage.
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And then they won't hit a thing/do laughable damage.
Hooray! You're finally caught up on the problem. HX sit on the outskirts, sometimes when it's 20 vs 1 and they drag the match out. One lucky hit and there's no motf and we end up with a round draw. It's worse than roof archers. (but they're "fighting" so it's not against the rules)
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Don't go all smart ass on me, I know what the thread is about. I was always for the idea of making MotF spawn in every battle, so away with your awful attitude. The problem with archers on roofs were not the same as the problem (you on NA have) with horse-crossbowmen, that's the thing I wanted to say and that's what I said. They are/were two different problems, shouldn't be fixed in anyway near the same way. Always have MotF is fine, you don't have to remove HX, like it looked you were suggesting with this:
Why did we prevent archers from camping on roofs?
Why do we allow HX to camp on horses, which they essentially use as a mobile roof?
Roof-camping was not removed to make rounds shorter and avoid delaying. It was to make sure that archers/xbowmen had to have some kind of risk while playing their point and click game. Now jog on
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Hooray! You're finally caught up on the problem. HX sit on the outskirts, sometimes when it's 20 vs 1 and they drag the match out. One lucky hit and there's no motf and we end up with a round draw. It's worse than roof archers. (but they're "fighting" so it's not against the rules)
Love how full of shit everything you post is lol. Care to name these HX's that are causing draws and sitting 100ft away from everybody the entire game? I have yet to see it. Maybe Rohypnol would occassionally draw, like once or twice a day (And he is no longer HX as of 2 days ago). Haven't seen any of the other HX's draw a game, or spend round after round 100ft away delaying.
Be honest, you and many of the others posting dumb shit don't like the class because you likely cannot counter it due to your lack of skill or being melee. If I remember right, you are a thrower. Try asking advice from better throwers like Hospitaller_Chucky_Tosser. That guy destroys my horse very frequently.
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he might have respecced but the five people he inspired didn't
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I believe removing valour for all HA and HX will make them fight(die) earlier, instead of delaying.
On some maps, motf is clearly in cav advantages though. And making it spawn earlier will actually, sometimes, give the win to the lone lancer/HX, wich would be stupid. But at least, fights will go in one direction, so why not.
If you could make the spawning place of the motf related to the current positions of the two teams, then that would solve the problem. For example, always make the motf spawn in the middle of the shortest distance between two players of different team. That way, no one is at a disadvantage, and the real fighting will begin sooner.
Of course, such a thing is near to impossible to implement, probably.
Edit : OR i belive the motf place is map dependant, and always the same on one map. So... if people could know where it is, even before it has spawned, then it could be interesting. That way, infantry would know wich place to go to right at the beginning. Of course, veterans players do know where it spawns, but even by playing a full week, if there's real battles, and no motf, you don't know where they usually spawn.
I like that last idea the best :
Force the appearance of the motf, and show where it will pop up, before it actually does.
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I have probably made a round draw 2-3 times the entire time ive been playing HX and only because i was not looking at the timer so it was accidental. I am going to give it my best shot to kill everyone before i decided to bend over and take it up the rear like you cry babies. You haters keep saying HX are drawing round out yet i never see it. Drawing is killing the last 15 people to win it i suppose, and protect your x5? Quit throwing shitty accusations out there. Most of you are mad because you died earlier in the round and you have to sit out and cry about playing again. I have a great idea. Why don't you babies just go play siege, so you can die millions of times and respawn at the latest 30 seconds. The real problem would have to be motf not the HX. Or another idea would be to give "some of you" a cry babies button to hit whenever you die and you can press it and auto up motf.
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The main thing that makes horse crossbowmen a 'problem' is when they are on super maneuverable horses. If they weren't able to weave all over so good I could actually hit them consistently with my archer alt. Probably the best counter to them right now is other cav with a faster and or better armored horse + rider or throwers who can put out a rapid volley of throws. Trying to take down an aware one is extremely hard when they can move so well.
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Care to name these HX's that are causing draws and sitting 100ft away from everybody the entire game?
The entire "semen storm" or "SS" clan.
If you don't know who I'm talking about, then you don't play on NA or you're blind.
I have seen various members of that clan cause round draws several times as well as draw the game out in a 20 vs 1 situation by simply staying at a safe distance. All they need is one lucky shot or one careless melee to run towards them to keep the round going until it draws.
And yes, I have throwing and I destroy horses all day long -- regular cavalry, that is. If you sit 100 feet away on a dancing Arabian, there is no thrower in the world who is going to down you with any reliability. Even archers and crossbowmen are complaining, and they can land shots from further away a lot easier than a thrower!
Lately, the SS clan has been stepping down at the end of the match but then we're just back where we were with "archers get off of the roofs" -- we are relying on polite cooperation to solve a game disrupting problem. All it took was 1 archer newbie to refuse to get off the roof to drag out a round. All it takes is 1 HX newbie to refuse to dismount to drag out a round. If anything, HX is considerably worse than roof archers because he has a mobile roof and what he's doing is not currently "against the rules" so if he wants to drag it out, he can.
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I think xbow cav should have to slow down while reloading, either manually or do it automatically so they can actually be shot or caught by a horse. They all ride Arabian warhorses which while they are not as fast as some other horses, really a courser is the only thing that can catch them still, their really high maneuverability makes them very hard to catch or shoot. A courser may be faster than an arabian but they definitely cant out turn one. I ride a destriter as 1h cav and i have 1 more maneuverability than coursers, which chase after me all the time every round and i can easily out turn them, cant imagine how easy it would be with 6 more maneuverability.
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LOL you guys are so dumb sometimes.. why the hell would you have to slow down why reloading anyway? how does that make any sense they are already slow enough on the reload.. ok so make them slow down why reloading but give them instant reloads.. wut? none of this stuff any of you are saying is true.. and if you just get better at aiming it is not hard at all to take an arabian down.. they are trying to avoid you obviously like i said, you want them to let you kill them?
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The entire "semen storm" or "SS" clan.
If you don't know who I'm talking about, then you don't play on NA or you're blind.
Nailed it!
Rohypnol doesn't play NA and has never seen any SEMENSTORM players.
LOL you guys are so dumb sometimes.. why the hell would you have to slow down why reloading anyway? how does that make any sense they are already slow enough on the reload.. ok so make them slow down why reloading but give them instant reloads.. wut? none of this stuff any of you are saying is true.. and if you just get better at aiming it is not hard at all to take an arabian down.. they are trying to avoid you obviously like i said, you want them to let you kill them?
Seriously, people complaining about HX are only complaining about not having auto MOTF for the last 1:30 of the round. So they want to nerf HX instead of fixing the problem.
Blind rage.
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LOL you guys are so dumb sometimes.. why the hell would you have to slow down why reloading anyway? how does that make any sense they are already slow enough on the reload.. ok so make them slow down why reloading but give them instant reloads.. wut? none of this stuff any of you are saying is true.. and if you just get better at aiming it is not hard at all to take an arabian down.. they are trying to avoid you obviously like i said, you want them to let you kill them?
guess you dont understand interia, having your hands bounce around everywhere because a horse is RUNNING, just like a car doin 20mph going over speed bumps
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guess you dont understand interia, having your hands bounce around everywhere because a horse is RUNNING, just like a car doin 20mph going over speed bumps
Yeah, you show him! Man he doesn't inertia! Rohpynol =ownedbitchdominated.etc
Irrelevant (and generally misinformed) realism discussions with nothing pertaining to game balance --> Realism Discussion board.
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guess you dont understand interia, having your hands bounce around everywhere because a horse is RUNNING, just like a car doin 20mph going over speed bumps
Sounds like you never did horseback riding -_-
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You guys keep acting like motf at 1:30 would magically fix all the problems of HX. When there are less than 30 people on the server, the rounds go much quicker. Most of them end before the 4 minute mark, and if there is a HX that is still a long wait.
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guess you dont understand interia, having your hands bounce around everywhere because a horse is RUNNING, just like a car doin 20mph going over speed bumps
oh my bad i didnt know we were posting in the realism thread lol.. clearly this game cannot be realistic, otherwise cav would be worse than they are now.. have you actually seen a horse run in rl? way faster than this damn game. just like these mobile tanks running around like ninjas. gimme a break
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Lemmy, it's not just that one maneuverability point. Turning at lower speed is way easier and the destrier is slower than a courser. That's probably why you notice such a massive difference between those two horses
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So essentially Marathon and Rohypnol support the return of roof archers and anyone who can't deal with roof archers hiding for 6 minutes is a baddie and doesn't understand the game.
How about no.
I give you two a 1/10 for trolling. A little effort, but could be better.
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So essentially Marathon and Rohypnol support the return of roof archers and anyone who can't deal with roof archers hiding for 6 minutes is a baddie and doesn't understand the game.
How about no.
I give you two a 1/10 for trolling. A little effort, but could be better.
Nah not anyone, just you and your baddie friends who love to keep spouting obvious lies about how the horse crossbows are playing. Probably due to a sore ass (likely).
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Nah not anyone, just you and your baddie friends who love to keep spouting obvious lies about how the horse crossbows are playing. Probably due to a sore ass (likely).
Yes, you have unearthed a vast conspiracy within cRPG to nerf HX for no reason what-so-ever.
No HX in the history of the game has ever drawn the game out for several minutes while 100 people sat in spectator mode. It's not these bored spectators coming here to complain about HX because they do not exist.
In other news, I notice you don't have a forum avatar. You should use this one:
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"The horse crossbows are never delaying! They are trampling the infidel infantry even now! They are never causing a match to draw! These are lies! Their fierce crossbows are always smiting the entire enemy team within the first 60 seconds of a match!"
Oh, Baghdad Bob, I knew we'd see you again some day. I had no idea you'd switched to cRPG.
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Yes, you have unearthed a vast conspiracy within cRPG to nerf HX for no reason what-so-ever.
No HX in the history of the game has ever drawn the game out for several minutes while 100 people sat in spectator mode. It's not these bored spectators coming here to complain about HX because they do not exist.
In other news, I notice you don't have a forum avatar. You should use this one:
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"The horse crossbows are never delaying! They are trampling the infidel infantry even now! They are never causing a match to draw! These are lies! Their fierce crossbows are always smiting the entire enemy team within the first 60 seconds of a match!"
Oh, Baghdad Bob, I knew we'd see you again some day. I had no idea you'd switched to cRPG.
Once again, you generalize. I never said that they have never delayed or never drawn games. Ive only seen an HX draw a game twice (two times). Do they draw out the game for a couple minutes every once in a while? Yes. Do they do this every round like you make it sound? No. Do they sit so far away that ranged has no chance of hitting them? No.
I like the avatar by the way. Ill use it if you would like. lol
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Sore asses all around. Look kids, there are really few good HX anyway.. why you bitching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A&feature=related)
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I rarely play on NA but I noticed that too. These HX are usually the last on the team and stretching the time to infinity (or draw). On EU we have one player le_cosito who uses armored horse, heavy armor and a xbow. If he is on, he is usually one of the last alive but still not annoying as I seen it on NA.
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I rarely play on NA but I noticed that too. These HX are usually the last on the team and stretching the time to infinity (or draw). On EU we have one player le_cosito who uses armored horse, heavy armor and a xbow. If he is on, he is usually one of the last alive but still not annoying as I seen it on NA.
He's not that much annoying cause he's... bad. :rolleyes:
Heavy armor, heavy horse, xbow, steel shield and 1h. Yet... horrible.
But i see your point.
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Simple solution to the horse xbow problem - as well as the running archer problem and the hiding xbowman problem.
LIMIT ALL RANGED AMMO TO 1 QUIVER ONLY
Its hard to drag a round out with only 15 bolts instead of 45
Same with HAs/Archers when they only have 24 arrows instead of 72
Personally I would up the quiver sizes to the following to make the change a little less extreme
Arrows = 30
Barbed Arrows = 26
Tatar Arros = 24
Bodkins = 20
Bolts = 18
Steel Bolts = 12
This would mean;
1) Ranged will generally run out of ammo long before the end of a round meaning they cannot drag the round out as much
2) Ranged players will need to learn to melee, since they will no longer be able to rely on always having enough arrows to continue running away
3) Ranged players will not spam arrows into melees as much and will be more likely to try and back stab their opponents instead so they can conserve arrows.
4) Ranged will probably need a wpf buff so that they can have a few spare skill points to drop into PS and IF for melee. This is a post idea balance issue though.
5) Well organised Strat armies will be uneffected once people realise they just need to build weapon racks to keep the arrows flowing
6) Less well organised Strat armies will sturggle to dominate with archers since without a weapon rack they will run out of ammo
7) Overall this means more tactics in Strat Battles with forward bases and weapon racks being more important, plus a slight cost based nerf to Strat Ranged play since you have to buy the weapon racks as well as the arrows and bows.
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Sure, just take away the archers ability to carry more than one type of damage type (that we already can't switch out even though every other class in game can) and force them to be the Hybrid Archer/Melee that was already nerfed out of existance.
Sorry, no. Bad idea.
A solution to a problem that doesn't exist :!:
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Sure, just take away the archers ability to carry more than one type of damage type (that we already can't switch out even though every other class in game can) and force them to be the Hybrid Archer/Melee that was already nerfed out of existance.
Sorry, no. Bad idea.
A solution to a problem that doesn't exist :!:
Horn Bow + Bodkins + a 2H Sword= 2 types of damage.
Rus Bow, Tatar Arrows + a Steel pick/Mace = 2 types of damage!
Please, think before you post.
Next, please read before you post.
4) Ranged will probably need a wpf buff so that they can have a few spare skill points to drop into PS and IF for melee. This is a post idea balance issue though.
I specifically mention that archery will need un-nerfing along with horse archery. By how much, I don't know, and won't know until the change is made. The problem with hybrids in the past was that archers could spawn with 70 arrows, fire them all and then pick up a melee weapon that they have equal proficiency in. The arrow limit prevents this, so hybrids will not be OP and can actually be balanced instead of nerfed out of existence.
As for the problem not existing
- If you refer to Archery not being a problem then I agree, but this is the easiest solution to the horse xbow problem which does exist and a simple un-nerfing of hybrids will bring archery back into balance
- If you refer to Horse Xbows not being a problem then I disagree, but at least I am attempting to think of a solution that doesn't simply remove them from the game.
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Horn Bow + Bodkins + a 2H Sword= 2 types of damage.
Rus Bow, Tatar Arrows + a Steel pick/Mace = 2 types of damage!
Please, think before you post.
Next, please read before you post.
We are not melee. Think about that before you post!
So in case it was not clear, hell no to your suggestion :o
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Got to admit.. does it not, make you laugh whenever you see the ignorant things people post haha
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I rarely play on NA but I noticed that too. These HX are usually the last on the team and stretching the time to infinity (or draw). On EU we have one player le_cosito who uses armored horse, heavy armor and a xbow. If he is on, he is usually one of the last alive but still not annoying as I seen it on NA.
Now imagine him with high riding skill, always on an Arabian, always rapidly changing direction and never approaching within 30 meters of any ranged class. Now imagine there are 6 of him.
Welcome to NA.
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Simple solution to the horse xbow problem - as well as the running archer problem and the hiding xbowman problem.
LIMIT ALL RANGED AMMO TO 1 QUIVER ONLY
I don't particularly like this idea because it's not like ranged, even HX, is "overpowered" and in need of a nerf. The problem is purely one of trolling. They know they are trolling. You don't play an HX and join a clan named "semen storm" without being a huge troll. Release_Arrows is probably the only HX who genuinely thinks it's a good idea and top notch fun, and at least he has the decency to not troll the server in the end. He used to, but everyone kept yelling at him.
So let's just agree to ban Rohypnol and call it a day.
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Got to admit.. does it not, make you laugh whenever you see the ignorant things people post haha
Heheh, I should have thrown in a wink and a laugh :wink: I'm not mad, I just think he is crazy :lol:
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Fix motf. Check to see if this put any fixes to the xbow cav problem, then make another thread. Only thing annoying about horse xbow is that melee have to risk getting hit while in the attack animation, so I'd rather not swing or be patient for the right moment. It's only annoying if the xbow isn't actively engaging people, just like any other class.
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The horse should have to slow down to a trot to reload.
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FIX MOTF.
Maybe if we say it 23478937483473784 times someone might do something about it.
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Now imagine him with high riding skill, always on an Arabian, always rapidly changing direction and never approaching within 30 meters of any ranged class. Now imagine there are 6 of him.
Welcome to NA.
Like I said, I sometimes play on NA and know how annoying they are :wink:
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We are not melee. Think about that before you post!
1 Quiver only -> Archer/HA Accuracy Buff -> Less skill points/wpf needed for archery -> skill points/wpf left over for melee
So you will be melee.
Of course, you could choose to stay pure archer and could even be a slightly more accurate archer than you are now (depending on how they do the accuracy buff). However you will only have 20-30 arrows to take advantage of that buff so it probably isn't advisable and won't be OP.
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Im just glad this isnt a problem in EU. Sucks for NA :D
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The horse should have to slow down to a trot to reload.
This. The deluge mod has similiar system when it comes to reloading pistols on horseback. Ride too fast and the reloading cancels. I guess this wouldn't hurt too much but would still make them a bit more easily reachable.
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its a bolt not a bullet.. do you ever see any other hx on top of the scoreboard? lol.. i thought this was a game balance discussion in term of it being op or something yet i can only account for 2 or 3 people at the most that can even get above 20 kills in a map.. and those same people can reach even higher than that with other builds.. still tryin to figure out how this is either op or unbalanced. like i said only 2 or 3 people are worth a shit at hc am i right> and if im wrong then tell me who is worth a shit at this build and prove me wrong. i went back to lancing cav and i seems that i can get high 30s and 40 kills consistently.. pretty hard to do that with this build imo. its also more diffucult than most of you cry babies think it is, at least more difficult than other builds.. if you try it and go 10-3.. dont say you are good and that its op because you still suck. in order for any of you to talk about a build being op.. you should try it.. fraps it and laugh at yourself about how bad yet again you are
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So you will be melee.
So your fix for the non-existant HX issue is to.....nerf archery and turn them into melee? :?
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i thought this was a game balance discussion in term of it being op or something
And again, it's not about kills.
It's about delaying the game and people being douchebags. Ladders weren't removed because they were OP and archers were wracking up massive kills. They were removed because of douchebags making us all sit around twiddling our thumbs while they sat perched in a safe place and delayed the inevitable. HX is the exact same problem.
They could have fixed motf instead of removing ladders, but they didn't.
They could fix motf instead of removing HX... will they?
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And again, it's not about kills.
It's about delaying the game and people being douchebags. Ladders weren't removed because they were OP and archers were wracking up massive kills. They were removed because of douchebags making us all sit around twiddling our thumbs while they sat perched in a safe place and delayed the inevitable. HX is the exact same problem.
They could have fixed motf instead of removing ladders, but they didn't.
They could fix motf instead of removing HX... will they?
People have been asking for a MotF to spawn every round so there's never a draw, it still hasn't happened. Considering c-rpg is nerf upon nerf upon nerf, I'm assuming they'll just nerf HX instead of fixing the underlying issue.
You can slap all the mosquitoes as you want, but until you get rid of that old tire they are breeding in, there will continue to be mosquitoes.
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The real solution is to stick with your team and not run out in the open field by yourself and expect to kill a good horse xbow guy, then get mad and make posts on the forum. Although I do agree a change should be made to MOTF but not because of that class.
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So your fix for the non-existant HX issue is to.....nerf archery and turn them into melee? :?
Yes, because buffing archery accuracy is actually a nerf.
I'll highlight the part of my previous post that you seem to be continually ignoring.
1 Quiver only -> Archer/HA Accuracy Buff -> Less skill points/wpf needed for archery -> skill points/wpf left over for melee
So you will be melee.
The idea is to counter the ammo nerf with the accuracy buff so that archery remains balanced, but with less ammo overall the ends of rounds will be not be drawn out as much.
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It took your 3rd post to make the statement of an accuracy buff. Before that you only specified a WPF buff to get "a few points to drop into melee".
So here is what happens with your new idea. Give them enough accuracy to go low on archery WPF and put those extra points into melee. They become better at archery and competitive as melee again. With only 1 stack of arrows, we can use 2 handers and polearms again. Everyone carries bodkins because there is no sense in using anything less. Bodkins upkeep balance is thrown off because you aren't carrying 2 stacks or 1 stack plus some other arrow type. Everyone picks up arrows off the ground, without concern for dropping a stack because they will all be the same, removing the point of reducing them to 1 stack in the first place.
So Archers become Rambo again, able to take out every other class in the game, while being mostly immune to the majority of them. If those other classes manage to get into melee range, the Archer then whips out his Spamberge (or whatever is OP) and stands on even ground against them.
It just isn't a good idea. It would require an entirely new set of "balancing" features and why? Because HX draw out rounds?
There is another way to prevent round draws. Fix MOTF.
There are far better ways to modify archery and internal bow balance. Making all archers become hyrid Rambo's just isn't one of them.
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You know, the one problem with the MOTF solution is that it doesn't really solve the problem.
The problem is "everyone gets pissed off watching a pair of HX spend 3 minutes delaying the game after everyone else on their team is dead, versus 20+ enemies that they don't even have enough ammo to kill".
The MOTF idea fixes a subset of this problem which is HX forcing draws.
But the real root issue here is what I originally stated in my first post, which is that "HX has no sensible counter". Any one of us could roll HX right now and delay every match for a couple of minutes. That part isn't hard.
The same could be said of HA, but they are so weak nobody cares and hardly anyone bothers to be HA as a result.
What the solution to this whole problem is, I don't know. "This is why we can't have nice things." It shouldn't BE a problem. HX has no counter but they aren't exactly wrecking balls either. Rohypnol was more dangerous to more people as a polearm spammer than he ever will be as an HX -- it just takes him too long to kill a wary target and he almost never clutches anymore. It's dumb. He's just doing it because it's the latest fashion trend for trolling the game. This isn't a thread about motf or HX. It's a thread about trolls.
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Anyone with a shield is near impervous to a horse xbow. The problem is that most people wanna run around with a 2h sword and plate - which a horse xbow counters. Just like any light cavalry, a horse xbow can stretch out a game - but any sane admin would simply slay/kick/ban such a player. Also, a decent HA completely annihilates any horse xbow unless you have two loaded xbows on you and pull off a magical double hit.
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But the real root issue here is what I originally stated in my first post, which is that "HX has no sensible counter".
Yes it does. :rolleyes:
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Yes it does. :rolleyes:
I now just try to kill the HA's horse and leave him for the lancers to deal with. Same with heavy tincan cav - 2-4 bolts in the right places finishes off the horse and renders him pretty useless for the remainder of the round as he 1) is trampled by other cav 2) is too far away from the action and gets cut down before rejoining his team.
As soon as I see 2 HA's together, I just run for the hills btw. Fuck that shit.
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Yes it does. :rolleyes:
No point in arguing with him, hes an idiot.
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Yes it does. :rolleyes:
No it doesn't.
Some people say to do something like a pike/archer combo. That just means they can't easily kill you. You still can't kill them because they can easily avoid you. That's not a "counter".
Some have said HA but the reason SS went HX is because it's more effective overall. If you want to really counter HX, your best bet is to play another HX, which further escalates the problem.
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Anyone with a shield is near impervous to a horse xbow.
No they aren't. They bump you and turn around and shoot you on the ground.
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No it doesn't.
Yes it does.
Some have said HA but the reason SS went HX is because it's more effective overall. If you want to really counter HX, your best bet is to play another HX, which further escalates the problem.
No it isn't.
"Countering" means taking on someone who is trying to kill you. It doesn't mean being able to kill a player who stays away from combat and goes 0-0 for a round. You go HX vs HX you are on even ground. You are just as likely to be dehorsed as the other guy. FYI, being dehorsed is a death sentence for HX (but I wouldn't have to say this to someone using the class).
HX have a very very short effective range and with the crossbow you use, shooting from the side is stupid and rarely kills because you don't get the speed bonus that is the killer. To be effective, they have to use the speed bonus, and they have to be close enough to be accurate, and compensate for the rapid bolt drop and pronounced arc.
Any decent archer will win vs HX, period. Dehorse them, then pew them to death on the ground. They can't run, they can't reload, they die. (Or just let lancer cav take them out)
Oh wait, there aren't any archers on the servers.
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This. The deluge mod has similiar system when it comes to reloading pistols on horseback. Ride too fast and the reloading cancels. I guess this wouldn't hurt too much but would still make them a bit more easily reachable.
It would make them more like mobile snipers, which is what they should be.
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This. The deluge mod has similiar system when it comes to reloading pistols on horseback. Ride too fast and the reloading cancels. I guess this wouldn't hurt too much but would still make them a bit more easily reachable.
It would make them more like mobile snipers, which is what they should be.
They don't take the fastest horses, they use the most maneuverable. They are dancers, not sprinters. I don't think this would make much of a difference for the competent ones :idea:
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Yeah it would. They'd have to escape to somewhere safe before reloading.
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Yeah it would. They'd have to escape to somewhere safe before reloading.
No they wouldn't. You are talking about the nubs who don't know how to play the class, spend time at the edge of the map shooting perpendicular, and go 0-1 while drawing out the rounds. MOTF for them. They don't need a counter because they don't engage :shock:
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Rarely ever see horse crossbowmen in EU, so I was wondering, do they ever end up in the top areas of the scoreboard?
Imo, the MOTF should just spawn as soon as there is a 5:1 ratio of players on the team. Forces the fight, which is basically lost for the 1 team, to be concentrated and end quickly. This does not at all prevent the underdog team to snag an epic victory, but does prevent the minutes long wait of seeing a HA/HC firing potshots at a group of enemies he will never beat.
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Rarely ever see horse crossbowmen in EU, so I was wondering, do they ever end up in the top areas of the scoreboard?
Imo, the MOTF should just spawn as soon as there is a 5:1 ratio of players on the team. Forces the fight, which is basically lost for the 1 team, to be concentrated and end quickly. This does not at all prevent the underdog team to snag an epic victory, but does prevent the minutes long wait of seeing a HA/HC firing potshots at a group of enemies he will never beat.
Yes, the better ones (only a very small amount) can get 20+ kills a map, decent ones at least a 2:1 kd, while shutting down enemy cav with ease and doing lots of damage all around. The xbow's rate of fire and all of that is worse than a HA that's for sure but that isn't their speciality. They simply manage to get a bullshit build that HA's cant. 10 riding, 5 HA, 10 WM. 10 riding on a champion arabian is pretty damn crazy, hard to track, does a ton of bump damage.. shouldn't be viable to build that way imo
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Yes, the better ones (only a very small amount) can get 20+ kills a map, decent ones at least a 2:1 kd, while shutting down enemy cav with ease and doing lots of damage all around. The xbow's rate of fire and all of that is worse than a HA that's for sure but that isn't their speciality. They simply manage to get a bullshit build that HA's cant. 10 riding, 5 HA, 10 WM. 10 riding on a champion arabian is pretty damn crazy, hard to track, does a ton of bump damage.. shouldn't be viable to build that way imo
Sounds like Smoothrich has a sore rear. :D
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Rarely ever see horse crossbowmen in EU, so I was wondering, do they ever end up in the top areas of the scoreboard?
Yes. Although someone in this thread claimed only he can do it, you can log on when they're around and usually the top 2 killers are HX and all of the HX will be somewhere in the upper part of the scoreboard.
The problem is really the "unkillable" part. They just ride around taking potshots and snapping up random kills but, unlike lancer cav, there's no direct way to counter them. You can't just bring a pike next round and ward them off as you can with normal cav. If you bring an archer they'll just avoid your part of the map and kill other people. Eventually the archer, who is squishy, dies from something random and then the HX will start picking you apart again. If it's an open field map you're probably screwed. You can't catch them. Even if you end up having plenty of archers left at the end of the round, now it's just pot-shots vs pot-shots and the HX are far more maneuverable. They will get another kill or two from finishing off some wounded guy and now you have no motf.
In the end what will probably save us is boredom. It's probably the least exciting way to play the game and once the trollishness wears off, they'll move on to something else.
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Yes, the better ones (only a very small amount) can get 20+ kills a map, decent ones at least a 2:1 kd, while shutting down enemy cav with ease and doing lots of damage all around. The xbow's rate of fire and all of that is worse than a HA that's for sure but that isn't their speciality. They simply manage to get a bullshit build that HA's cant. 10 riding, 5 HA, 10 WM. 10 riding on a champion arabian is pretty damn crazy, hard to track, does a ton of bump damage.. shouldn't be viable to build that way imo
Oh yes ofcourse, the lack of a str based skill for crossbowman has always been a weird thing to me. If I only wouldn't have to grind to try a horse based build on a stf I would try it. Sounds like fun 8-)
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Oh by top of scoreboards you must mean MrDICK and SODOMY which mrdick is also me... my bad archers cant aim.. when clearly the ones that can have no problem shooting me down.. dont make excuses for your lack of skill..
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Oh by top of scoreboards you must mean MrDICK and SODOMY which mrdick is also me... my bad archers cant aim.. when clearly the ones that can have no problem shooting me down.. dont make excuses for your lack of skill..
Troll attempt: 0/10. Poor effort.
So apparently, what you're saying, is that all archers are terrible. There are absolutely no good archers online ever, which is why HX are so frequently topping the charts. Not because HX have no counter but because every single cRPG archer is a bad player. If they were good, they could outrun your mount and chase you down and shoot you with arrows even as you attempt to move to avoid them and dodge around on your Arabian.
... good try.
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the only horse xbow that does well is rohypnol (well i guess ss_sodomy does ok as well but not anywhere near as good as rohypnol)
the guys saying to nerf horse xbow are idiots, if roh was any other class he would do just as well or with most classes better he is just very good at the game having played a long time.
and yes most archers are bad, theres maybe 5 archers that i care to watch out for and id imagine its the same for most cav (and i dont just mean when i ride my armoured horse).
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Regardless of the merits of individual skill of archers or horse xbows, I still think 10 riding 5 HA as a viable build is kind of BS, it gives a very strong advantage to the rider if they are using a champion arabian especially.
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ROHYP makes any build he plays annoying as @#$%, that's just what he does.
BUT a lot of the builds are not really that annoying to start with. He is annoying to fight, picks pretty much the most overpowered weapon to go with, and just rolls.
That said he is really only capable of being the last alive and "delaying" as HX. Most HX are just TERRIBLE and pretty much accomplish nothing. But they would accomplish nothing, possibly even less, as a different build.
(I support keeping HA/HX but forcing MOTF to spawn at around 1:30 remaining)
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i agree with badplayer very much on the archer situation.. most arches are very bad.. i can name about 5 like he said and that i stated above there are a few that do not have a problem shooting me down.. 10 riding maybe annoying along with the HA skills too.. but what can you do? nerf both riding skill and ha and make them completly equal to eachother? now that would be dumb.. most horse archers have double the hit points that hx have, if not more.. they also fire 3 times faster.. if they can connected with 1 out of the 3 then it stops the reload on the hx.. and basically with 2 or 3 good shots kills the hx.. thats why hx has to be faster to get away.. as far as it goes with me.. they are not going to nerf this, and even if it is nerfed, it will make all the other hx completely obsolete and guess what.. ill still make you guys cry with it LOL
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Yes. Although someone in this thread claimed only he can do it, you can log on when they're around and usually the top 2 killers are HX and all of the HX will be somewhere in the upper part of the scoreboard.
Wut? When there are 6 players in game maybe....
i agree with badplayer very much on the archer situation.. most arches are very bad.. i can name about 5 like he said and that i stated above there are a few that do not have a problem shooting me down..
And you still have the gumption (or foresight) to go after them.
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So since I've been on siege, I logged onto Battle today to see this HX menace. Spotted HX. 30 seconds later, HX dead.
What's the issue again?
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Oh I see. Next round, running with the infantry, spot HX, start shooting at them. Lanced in the back, dead. Where did my melee teammates go? :lol:
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If horse crossbowmen are on the other side and they are a threat, stick by your ranged teammates and protect them.
If motf can appear more reasonably, then shielders would also become an effective counter, being able to defend the flag relatively safely from them. As long as the HX can bump->shoot shielders, it's not THAT bad for the HX, either, or if there are multiple HX/ranged to shoot at various angles.
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For the Euros:
http://youtu.be/-3jVwgSp0cM
Watch this video once every 5 minutes for an hour. Imagine there are about 100 people dead and spectating.
That's NA now. 2 minutes of watching a couple people with no chance of winning draw the map out for no reason. This was not a carefully selected video -- it was the first thing I saw after logging in.
It's very typical.
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For the Euros:
http://youtu.be/-3jVwgSp0cM
Watch this video once every 5 minutes for an hour. Imagine there are about 100 people dead and spectating.
That's NA now. 2 minutes of watching a couple people with no chance of winning draw the map out for no reason. This was not a carefully selected video -- it was the first thing I saw after logging in.
It's very typical.
I am glad you posted this. It disproves all the horseshit you fill this thread with. Both were not a football field away lobbing shots to nowhere. They were within 15 ft of melee trying to kill them. They killed multiple people before they were taken down. This doesn't look like intentional delaying in the slightest. This looks like a video showing people playing their class as effectively as possible. If you had any competent archers, throwers, crossbowers, they could have EASILY killed them. Look at how insanely close they are to the enemies. Didn't have any left alive? Why not try protecting them next round instead of running off by yourself?
Is it annoying dying early and having to spectate for 3-4 minutes? To some. Thats what battle is though, elimination. You got eliminated, you wait.... If you don't like the wait, go play siege, go duel, go jerk off for a while. If you really think the class is so ridiculously easy, I urge you to try it. There have been many players (even admins) that have tried HX out and found out how challenging it is to play.
If you and so many others find it intolerable to wait 3 minutes after you die (sad), then why not try and get the rounds shortened? Instead of 6 minutes try and get it reduced to 5 or 4? Or push for something like what was suggested earlier: when the ratio of teams hits like 5:1, MOTF automatically spawns. So when there are 15 people and 1 or 2 HX, MOTF will spawn and there will be no waiting around.
There are plenty of better ways of going about changing things than calling for a nerf on a class that very few people play.
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LOL, where were the archers and other ranged? They were being killed by enemy cavalry and infantry while that ball of infantry ineffectively chased him the entire round. Ban those infantry for delaying! They should have stood there to be shot for chasing a horse instead of sticking by their ranged. Really? Chasing a horse for 4 minutes without a ranged weapon? All you did was run further and further away from help, and why should the HX come in range of the archers then? He's got 10 stupid melee to shoot at without concern. Holy shit, thanks for the video. Instead of making a case for HX delaying in a round, you showed exactly what the rest of us have been saying. That the infantry coming up in here complaining has no idea how to play their class. :shock:
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Yes, Granpappy, congratulations on insulting almost the entire cRPG playerbase. I am certain that this will set things to right. By all means, please use your admin powers to log into NA1 regularly and proclaim to everyone that the reason they are waiting 3 minutes watching 2 guys run around on horses milking their x1 for round after round, map after map, is because they are all terrible at the game and suck as players.
I am sure this will go over really well and solve the problem entirely.
I'm glad we had this chat and have finally concluded that the problem isn't the mod, but the people who play it. Certainly we agree on that.
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Really? The entire playerbase is coming in here and calling to nerf HX? Well excuuuuuseee me. I didn't realize that a few infantry complaining on the forums because they think chasing a horse around the entire round is the way to play their class, also represented every player in the game. :lol:
Yes. Learn to play your class if you were one of those infantry running around in a ball chasing a horse away from the ranged classes on your team. :idea: Oh crap, I forgot, that would require tactical thinking. :rolleyes:
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You claim what happens in the video only happens with incompetent players. Since it happens almost every round, you are saying everyone is incompetent. Except you, I guess, because one time you logged in and shot a horse and it died, which definitely proves your theory.
Oh, incidentally, I actually enjoy fighting them.
"Fighting" being the operative word. Fighting them is fun. Watching them delay a 2 vs 18 match for nearly 3 minutes by riding to the edges of the map is not that much fun.
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When I was an xbow I found rohypnol and co to be pretty annoying but not impossible to deal with. They are excellent at harassing a reloading xbow man or archer making a ranged player unable to engage the other team properly and if you turn to face them not only is the 10 riding champion arabian very difficult to land shots on if they are a good horseman and focused on evading, if they ever lose the advantage of the fight they can ride away.
Now if I caught them riding in a straight line engaging someone else or momentarily stopped it really is no harder to land shots on the pro horse xbows as it is any other cav rider. As a cavalry lancer I find these guys like flies that are impossible to swat away because of the big jukes they are capable of, their ability to hold shots until point blank makes them very difficult to man up on and the bolts do surprisingly high damage if you are riding towards them.
You see them last alive at the ends of rounds so often because of the silly survivability they have with 10 riding arabian warhorses. They are just so agile its impossible for melee cav to kill them unless its with surprise, and ranged will end up missing tons of shots while worrying about lancer cav and other ranged and the like that super mobile horse xbows can end up being unmolested. I dunno how to take the 10 riding build's viability away without doing stuff like raising the light xbow's strength requirement but I never thought that was too much of an issue. Really horse xbows don't bother me too much in general but I think they are a stronger class then people give it credit for.
I have a horse xbow alt and I think its actually pretty easy to play, much easier than horse archer, but my alt doesn't have the gold to maintain an arabian warhorse, let alone the perks of masterworked items.
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"Fighting" being the operative word. Fighting them is fun. Watching them delay a 2 vs 18 match for nearly 3 minutes by riding to the edges of the map is not that much fun.
when i get shot by archers its not fun, when the enemy camps with pikes its not fun, if a thrower 1shots my horse early in the round then i have to pay 3k to repair it its not fun.
many things in this game arent fun stop being such a babby about it, also i have seen rohypnol actually clutch rounds with numbers similar to those so its not like hes delaying with no chance to win.
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when i get shot by archers its not fun
There are ample ways of dealing with foot archers. Not to mention archery in general is not that powerful. (For all of Grannpappy's boasting, I can't say I recall ever seeing him anywhere near the top of any scoreboard.)
when the enemy camps with pikes its not fun
Not wanting to attack someone because you are a cowardly cavalry player is not the same as being UNABLE to attack someone because they are on a 10 riding skill Arabian and dance away whenever you start to get into range.
if a thrower 1shots my horse early in the round then i have to pay 3k to repair it its not fun.
There are ample ways of dealing with throwers. Again, being afraid to engage someone is not the problem we are discussing in this thread. If you want to make generic whines about you being too afraid to fight throwers or pikes, please start a new thread.
i have seen rohypnol actually clutch rounds with numbers similar to those so its not like hes delaying with no chance to win.
I'm sure roof archers clutched a game once in a blue moon too.
We got rid of that, didn't we? Why did we get rid of that?
Incidentally, I was one of the few people saying roof archers weren't a big deal because there were plenty of ways to handle it. Forcing roof archers into a MOTF situation was easy. Getting HX to do it is literally impossible on maps that have no cover. It's a bigger problem than roof archers ever were.
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Slamz is right. Horse xbows are like Archers on roofs, except with roofs they can move.
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Slamz is right. Horse xbows are like Archers on roofs, except with roofs they can move.
A pair of tenacious fast lancers can make your life impossible. A single good horse archer shits on your parade. A couple of archers and or crossbows working together mean you gotta stay your distance and harrass the enemy elsewhere. Infantry with shields and some throwing weapons mean you can't really come close. Put a bunch of those together and you're fucked.
Also, when you're 1vs20, you should just step off your horse, throw down your gear and run into them with flailing fists. I sometimes get called a 'stalling my old friend' when I try to win 1vs2-3, but I just take that as them being sore losers. I play M&B in a window so I can watch some webshows, series or browse reddit and forums when I'm dead. This game is so old that if you can't do this, go work an hour at the McDonalds so you can buy a 5 year old graphics card so you can do the same.
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with an exception.. you cannot shoot a roof down.. you can shoot a horse down.. you need to develop a skill called awareness.. it makes you better at vidya games
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they are op as cav archery. i can't catch them with courser because they have good manevring horses,and they ride slower and very often my horse die in chase. They don't shoot me,they just shoot my horse and then shoot me when i am on ground. What needs to be done is to make HA more difficult and less accurate.
There is too many HA in EU servers. I always pick gk banner because it piss me off when they kill my horse with arrows. When they join there is like 10 HA.
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There are ample ways of dealing with foot archers. Not to mention archery in general is not that powerful. (For all of Grannpappy's boasting, I can't say I recall ever seeing him anywhere near the top of any scoreboard.)
Horses don't give you kills :rolleyes: I also don't min/max for 1 shot kills with the Rus. I play a build that I find enjoyable. I chain stun players while my melee teammates get the kills. I dehorse cavalry (HX first, then HA, then Lancers) and then ignore the grounded turd while my team cavalry runs them down and I find another horse to kill, or shoot the xbow user until they run and hide, or other archers that are spamming into the melee scrum, or lastly, throwers. In other words, everyone that infantry can't. K/D don't mean squat. What I do is significantly reduce the damage output and kills of the other team. I bet if the numbers were available, you'll find that my team wins more rounds on average than the majority of players out there because I play to make the team win, by knowing how to play my class and countering those classes I am meant to counter.
Oh yeah, I'm also running with a PD4 and Tatar or Nomad bow because I find it to be a challenge and the speed of those bows allow me to do all the things listed above better than the slow drawing power bows. There are only a few ranged out there that can go head to head with me and win more of those duels, and of those, WarKittenz is the only one I've observed who isn't forced to drop down to a faster bow to compete.
But some players are more concerned about their K/D e-peen and complaining about classes they aren't meant to counter in the first place :o You don't see Archers spamming threads calling to nerf those high athletic shielders with nearly impervious to arrows shields that can walk them down and slay them with impunity. We accept that we aren't meant to be able to take them out and go after the classes that we can and are built to deal with.
Oh yeah, I was on battle constantly until a few weeks ago when I switched to Siege to make certain we had Admin coverage there. We had HX back then too (and I tried one out). My point was that I logged in to see if things had changed, and.....nope. Same HX easily taken down when dehorsed, same infantry running off at full speed as soon as they spawn, and the same players more concerned about their beloved K/D to take the time out to dehorse an easily dealt with player class. Peasants in cloth look better on the scoreboard you know :rolleyes:
But keep on fishing for sympathies :cry:
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with an exception.. you cannot shoot a roof down.. you can shoot a horse down.. you need to develop a skill called awareness.. it makes you better at vidya games
No.
The difference is that roof archers can't follow you around and draw out a match for 3 minutes. At worst they can hide on the roof until MOTF pops up because everyone just stands behind a tree.
That doesn't work with HX. The roof splits up and comes around the tree from two sides and starts shooting you, frequently preventing MOTF from showing up even though, as in my video, they really had no chance what-so-ever. All they did was drag it out for 3 minutes.
And it wouldn't be so bad if it was every once in a while. But like I said, watch that video once every 5 minutes for an hour and that's what's like playing with these douchebags.
Boring as fuck. It's not even fun to watch them. At least Namo's old valor farming, corner hiding ways could provide SOME entertainment when he was eventually forced to come out and fight. These HX are pure boredom.
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No.
The difference is that roof archers can't follow you around and draw out a match for 3 minutes. At worst they can hide on the roof until MOTF pops up because everyone just stands behind a tree.
That doesn't work with HX. The roof splits up and comes around the tree from two sides and starts shooting you, frequently preventing MOTF from showing up even though, as in my video, they really had no chance what-so-ever. All they did was drag it out for 3 minutes.
And it wouldn't be so bad if it was every once in a while. But like I said, watch that video once every 5 minutes for an hour and that's what's like playing with these douchebags.
Boring as fuck. It's not even fun to watch them. At least Namo's old valor farming, corner hiding ways could provide SOME entertainment when he was eventually forced to come out and fight. These HX are pure boredom.
you are seriously comparing a roof to a horse.. hrm wow.. i guess this thread should be more of a "im mad" not really a balance discussion.. lets really balance it out and input back in the speed bonus you get from horseback too.. they already have taken that away.. how bout this decrease the aim and put that back it
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I'd be good with higher damage and less accuracy.
Forcing HX to be closer to their target to effectively land hits would be a great way to solve the problem.
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I'd be good with higher damage and less accuracy.
Forcing HX to be closer to their target to effectively land hits would be a great way to solve the problem.
Would be nice if your reticule bobbed up and down as your horse rode...
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just stop with the crazy ideas.. you are not helping, and this is not the realism thread
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I'll try this one more time and honestly this time. Just make MoTF force spawn at 1:30 or 2:00 mark. Even if by some retarded chance there is still a large amount of players on each team it would give cause for something to fight over. Which is what I think this game mode really lacks there is no real direction in battle at the moment other than slay the other team because GOD WILLS IT! What about a Conquest style mode or fuck it make MoTF spawn at a minute into the round. I with Rum and Rohyp here nerfing a class doesn't solve the problem it just makes the game less fun by driving people away. Instead suggest something to make the game better than it's current state.
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just stop with the crazy ideas.. you are not helping, and this is not the realism thread
As for realism it has no place in a video game so screw that thread in the ass.
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Unless you want a realistic video game, or one with a certain degree of realism.
JUST SAYIN.
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just stop with the crazy ideas.. you are not helping, and this is not the realism thread
Yeah I know, and I don't think horse Xbow or any class is overpowered enough to warrant a nerf. Sorry for muddying the issue...
The real issue is that MOTF needs to spawn, there's no reason for a draw to ever happen. I think it would be good if the MOTF ALWAYS spawned, but it varied at one time it spawned so people wouldn't be camping waiting for it.
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Horse XBow vs:
1H + shield: bump, then shoot
2H: avoid, shoot
Pikes: avoid, shoot
Throwing: avoid, shoot
Archery: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Xbows: bump and shoot repeatedly (or avoid)
Cav: avoid, shooy
They have no true counter.
This is the most retarded post Ive seen for a while.
You included all the main classes, but left out a cav sub clas, HA, yet included the another subclass. HX
fucking retarded, HA are the counter of HX, they shoot faster, less accurate and less damage, but the high output of arrows will down the HX horse before the xbow can release 2-3 shots. Also since an archer can re
ease 3 arrows before the xbower can put off one shot, the chance to stun him and stop him from reloading is high.
So stop being ignorant and leaving out one subclass and including another. Pure retardation.
This also comes from a first hand experience, this thread complains about rohypnal wannabees and all, I take them down with 5 arrows, tops.
Same with rohypnal, its because all the archers are so eager to get the kill, aim for the horse, much easier, then let your teammates pick off the stranded xbower with 0 athletics
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+1 to n445.
I always thought horse archer was the natural counter to horse crossbows. People didn't even really use horse crossbows (except maybe 1 or 2 nut jobs) until they nerfed archery damage.
Horse crossbows are better at killing enemy lance cavalry than horse archers (IMO). I absolutely hate the fuckers, that means they are a very useful class if they are doing it right. They shouldn't be nerfed because they use their strengths to their advantage, people should have to learn how to counter them.
Ground archers can also counter them, but they are usually more focused on immediate threats to themselves or their own infantry. And by the time the end of the round starts coming, most archers are dead because they didn't have proper support and ended up getting picked off by cavalry.
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I fully agree, especially the foot archers being more aware ofnimmediate threats to themselves. Ewhich is the great thing about being a HA, you don't have many immediate threats letting you take out the MOST threatning instead of the closest >> Usually ranged cav
this ability to choose your targets is why horse range is very deadly and annoying ;D
On a second note that is totally unrelated to this subject. I shun cav that bump their friendlys... it's easy to help friendlys and not hinder them :D
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Just make MoTF force spawn at 1:30 or 2:00 mark.
This.
And yeah HA has no trouble with HX. I usually shoot them down if I see them and then just leave them for our cav to mop up. The only time they are a problem is if your horse has already taken damage because 1 xbow bolt can often down it then.
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This is the most retarded post Ive seen for a while.
Ooo yes, so because there's one grossly underpowered subclass that nobody plays (and never, in the history of cRPG, has been on top of the charts) that totally invalidates the whole thread.
Maybe if you actually played the game, you'd see how real horse archers fare.
1) They get killed through various means while trying to chase down the HX
2) If there are no HX they are a bloody useless and expensive class to play
The reason HX became popular and HA didn't is because HX is effective against a variety of targets while HA is useless against just about everything. They can't even delay rounds because they can't consistently get kills fast enough to block MOTF.
The real problem is that most of the time, archers are incredible idiots and you are all dead before the end of the round. Even trying to guard you is futile because no two archers will ever stand near each other and 90% of you (including the archers in this thread that I recognize) loves to stand out in the open on a field where you invariably get lanced and quite possibly get me lanced too in the effort of trying to defend you.
So, maybe we do agree on one point:
The reason HX is a problem is because archers are incredibly stupid.
Anyway, a previous prediction of mine seems to have come true: HX largely stopped being a problem not because anyone ever managed to consistently counter them but because they got bored.
The only thing more boring to play than an HX is an HA. Nobody who does either of those seems to stick with them for long. I tried both and HX is effective and boring while HA is ineffective and boring.
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Don't jump to conclusions Slamz. The vast majority of horse crossbows you see are STF or fuckaround alts of known, respectable players whom you would probably not expect (which is why so many of them are bad). They simply don't play them unless the Semenstorm group is all on and playing HX. Once the break is over, we will all be HX again and you'll see the swarm return. I fully expect you to be at the forefront of the whining, along with parakeet and crazyi. Haha :wink:
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Ooo yes, so because there's one grossly underpowered subclass that nobody plays (and never, in the history of cRPG, has been on top of the charts) that totally invalidates the whole thread.
Maybe if you actually played the game, you'd see how real horse archers fare.
1) They get killed through various means while trying to chase down the HX
2) If there are no HX they are a bloody useless and expensive class to play
The reason HX became popular and HA didn't is because HX is effective against a variety of targets while HA is useless against just about everything. They can't even delay rounds because they can't consistently get kills fast enough to block MOTF.
O now this is a retarded post :lol:
While HA can be UP, it is no where near this bad. You've evidently only seen some really awful HA. Just yesterday on EU4 me and another foot archer killed off the last 4 enemy in under a minute. We each got 2 and they were in upper tier medium armour. It was pretty easy. The only time HA will EVER struggle against HX is if they are riding a heavy horse, or your own horse has taken damage. Otherwise there's no excuse for not being able to down an HX other than very poor shooting.
I'd argue that HA is more skill based and takes longer to learn than HX. HX is very much a stop and shoot class. That and the higher accuracy makes for easier shots. HA have to learn how to use the lower accuracy a lot more. That's not to say HX isn't skilled, but I think HA is more so. As a result more people will pick HX simply because it requires less effort.
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HX is very much a stop and shoot class.
With all due respect, you play on EU and thus have no idea what we are talking about in this thread.
None of the HX archers we are discussing are the "stop and shoot" type. It's not really necessary -- especially against unaware infantry, in which case HX works almost exactly like lancer cavalry: you ride up on some guy fighting or not paying attention and instead of lancing him, you shoot him point blank right before your horse runs him over. HX just has the additional advantage that if it's a wary pikeman then you can circle around him and kill him from 20 feet away instead.
Especially true on NA1 where the majority of the maps have been 0-cover open field maps.
The main weakness of the HA is the number of points they have to spend.
HX:
10 riding
5 horse archery
10 WM
2 skill points left over (7/30)
190 xbow wpf(!!!)
As an HA, you can't do anything like that. You need strength and points for power draw which is going to impair your riding, relative to an HX. If Lemann is right and the HX all come back, it would certainly be interesting to see you try some crossover action to battle them. Usually they use their superior riding skill to dodge the HA and retreat to the safety of friendly lines, so that you get killed by some other means in the meantime. If it comes to the end of the round and you're still alive, the HX will prioritize killing you.
Really they just need to kill your horse. With 10 riding skill on an Arabian, 2 HX can pretty well keep you from standing back up.
ANYway, I'm just speaking for the masses. You can see all the complaints and requests to "get off your horse" in the short video I posted.
Those people may not be stampeding the forums with demands (yet), but the sentiment is out there. Feel free to discount everything I'm saying. I'm just repeating to you the things being said over and over by dozens of people on NA1.
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As a HA you shoot their horse a few times and it dies (cuz they all use arabians) while they take ages to reload. I went HA for a short amount of time only yesterday and even with 111wpf in archery cause I fucked up my build I didn't have trouble with HX except 1 who had much better aim than me. I see no problems with someone better than me killing me.
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Regardless of whether or not the sentiment of players is that HX is lame, OP, gay, whatever, there won't be any changes to them. Why? Because the people whining about them are wrong. The admins don't bend to the wishes of the whiners and kick/ban HX's. Why? Because the admins know that they're wrong.
Rohypnol and I are pretty much the only people who do well as HX, granted Rohypnol is far better than I am. Try spectating us for an entire map. Watch how we play. We are never out of harms way (unless we are having high speed fights with lancers). I am very surprised that more people don't shoot down our horses earlier in the round. As someone said before though and I can attest to, archers generally aren't shooting at us unless we are harassing them directly. They are trying to kill infantry and get a better KDR. Then by the end of the round, most of the ranged is dead and the HX just has melee to deal with. This is not the fault of the HX.
Onto the 10 riding 5 HA and 10 wm build. I agree that it does sound rather crazy to be able to pull it off. You need to understand though. 7 strength leaves us with no opportunity to pick up a melee weapon and defend ourselves if dehorsed. If we lose our horse, we die. You claim that it is far too easy to dodge arrows and bolts, making it impossible to lose the horse. Try fighting Karma, Havoc, Damatacus, or some of the other excellent ranged players of this game. They frequently take out my horse (or me) from half the map away.
There are plenty... plenty of counters to the class. The times people whine are simply when no ranged are left alive to combat the HX at the end of a round.
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Regardless of whether or not the sentiment of players is that HX is lame, OP, gay, whatever, there won't be any changes to them. Why? Because the people whining about them are wrong. The admins don't bend to the wishes of the whiners and kick/ban HX's. Why? Because the admins know that they're wrong.
I said the same thing about roof archers, which are only half as lame as HX, and which are completely incapable of creating the MOTF problem that HX creates.
Yet they made the change to remove ladders, just because a few whiners couldn't be bothered to hide behind a tree.
Which, incidentally, doesn't work against HX.
So either admins do something about HX or they re-implement ladders or they are fickle hypocrites who sided for one thing and against another with contradictory reasoning. There were more and better counters to roof archers than there are to HX.
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I said the same thing about roof archers, which are only half as lame as HX, and which are completely incapable of creating the MOTF problem that HX creates.
Yet they made the change to remove ladders, just because a few whiners couldn't be bothered to hide behind a tree.
Which, incidentally, doesn't work against HX.
So either admins do something about HX or they re-implement ladders or they are fickle hypocrites who sided for one thing and against another with contradictory reasoning. There were more and better counters to roof archers than there are to HX.
Well then you'll have to call them fickle hypocrites. All you seem to be able to do is plug your ears and yell loudly in order to try and make a point when there isnt one. Archers, crossbowmen, horse archers, throwers are all solid counters to horse crossbows. You've been told this by people repeatedly through this retarded thread lol. You can see this in game. Occassionally all the ranged will be dead at the end of the round and it is one of the 2 people who play HX alive vs some infantry. Obviously the infantry cannot do much about it (nor should they be able to). More often than not this isn't the case, and you know it.
You're simply angry at having to spectate for 2 minutes after you die, and I understand that. This was initially your issue when you posted this thread. Should stick to your main gripe and leave retarded balancing suggestions out of it. IMO
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High speed fights with lancers on an arabian with 10 riding skill you say? Plenty of counters but can only name 3 "excellent ranged players" that can MAYBE shoot you down. Plenty.
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Well then you'll have to call them fickle hypocrites. All you seem to be able to do is plug your ears and yell loudly in order to try and make a point when there isnt one. Archers, crossbowmen, horse archers, throwers are all solid counters to horse crossbows.
XBows are one of the worst possible counter to HX. Good luck reloading when the HX is just going to knock you down, shoot you, or both. You'd be better off with a pike.
Throwers are not a counter. XBow range is a lot further and he has a lot more ammo and a lot better accuracy and a lot better ability to dodge. HX will just stand off at range and shoot you.
So basically you just keep ignoring everything and spouting the same complete nonsense against all evidence to the contrary because you personally like HX. You admit that the policy is not consistent between HX and roof archers but you support HX for personal reasons.
It's an emotional issue for you. I understand.
For my part, all I'm asking for is consistency. Either roof archers were a problem due to game delaying or they weren't. Either HX are the same problem for the same reason or you have an emotional bias.
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XBows are one of the worst possible counter to HX. Good luck reloading when the HX is just going to knock you down, shoot you, or both. You'd be better off with a pike.
Xbows are ranged right? They can shoot from a distance you know. They can stick with teammates and then shoot at the HX who is riding around (doesn't even have to be THAT far away).
Same goes for all other ranged. It's really not that bloody hard. It's the same reason why so many lancers have an easy time of it, foot ranged just seem to be blind to horses. They just won't shoot them unless directly threatened. It's kinda bizarre but produced by the focus on trying to get a good KDR I guess and so focusing on kills as opposed to teamplay.
Regardless, blame foot ranged for any annoying HX. If foot ranged were actually smart, you wouldn't be here complaining.
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you know slamz and crazyi if you just got better at this game and stopped taking it so serious.. none of this would be an issue.. blame yourselfs for sucking
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Im in agreement with Rohypnol. The good players that play ranged don't have a huge issue taking our horses down. Maybe you really do just need to get better :cry:
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To be fair, they're playing classes that can't deal with HX, so getting better won't really do too much other than killing other infantry or something.
HX is a pretty effective build, but not op or anything like that. Mediocre HX like I was when I tried it for the first time (first time playing ranged and cav in crpg) need to get a little closer in order to land accurate shots. I did find throwers to be the ones who dehorsed or killed me more than I would have liked, due to the fact they have 2-3 times to try to hit me while I flee.
With the 7-30 build, HAs have the possibility of oneshotting you and you have to dodge a few arrows before you can reload again.
I think the knockdown turnaround shot is pretty dumb, though. HA have to time it, while HX can just wait until he can get an easy knockdown. Infantry are really easy to deal with, admittedly. They have to hope that I miss even when I get close, since I only need to release the trigger while they have a full windup animation.
Other than that, I can't really think of much. When HX were becoming too much on the server, the infantry picked up pocket crossbows and that helped them immensely.
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To be fair, they're playing classes that can't deal with HX, so getting better won't really do too much other than killing other infantry or something.
Like the infantry that is killing their ranged while they chase the HX they can never catch or attack in a big ball for the entire round? Nah, wouldn't help at all :rolleyes: