cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Ujin on January 09, 2011, 05:29:39 pm

Title: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 09, 2011, 05:29:39 pm
I guess this topic would've popped up eventually, sooner or later. So instead of the good old archers spam,  now we have throwing weapons (THW later in this topic)  spam.
I'm fine with it, at least people advance towards each other nowadays instead of camping for ages, but imo throwing is too OP as it is right now.

No matter what THW it is, it either hurts, or hurts LIKE HELL. Add two simple facts that one can use a shield  with THW and/or spam THW and easily switch to a melee weapon when the time comes.

As much as i love throwing (i had 7 PT before the patch), i think for the sake of game balance it needs to be somehow tweaked. The first idea that comes is a little of a damage reduction for all throwing weapons.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on January 09, 2011, 05:46:13 pm
I agree. Throwing weapons got an indirect buff from other ranged getting a nerf.

I do not understand why throwing weapons do so much pierce damage while their polearm counterparts thrust attacks do much less.

My Ideas:

 - Add a proper reload animation for throwing weapons. (Taking throwing axes out of the bag, Javelins, Jarid's, e.t.c.)

 - Remove the shotgun effect, involve precise timing. (Similar to archery longer you hold down the button the more inaccurate it gets)
 
 - Reduce the damage slightly.

 - Increase accuracy significantly

 - Increase WPF affect on accuracy significantly

Would love to see throwing become something more of a tactical support role used with smarts, not an arcady point blank shotgun class.
 
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ganon on January 09, 2011, 05:52:44 pm
The accuracy on throwing weapons currently sucks, i'm not going to use them again in my future chars. Damage is already low, sometimes i hit people with 3 spears and they don't die. Good support skill but a waste of points in real fights.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Bonze on January 09, 2011, 06:00:55 pm
I guess this topic would've popped up eventually, sooner or later. So instead of the good old archers spam,  now we have throwing weapons (THW later in this topic)  spam.
I'm fine with it, at least people advance towards each other nowadays instead of camping for ages, but imo throwing is too OP as it is right now.

No matter what THW it is, it either hurts, or hurts LIKE HELL. Add two simple facts that one can use a shield  with THW and/or spam THW and easily switch to a melee weapon when the time comes.

As much as i love throwing (i had 7 PT before the patch), i think for the sake of game balance it needs to be somehow tweaked. The first idea that comes is a little of a damage reduction for all throwing weapons.


We have 2h/pole/1h/archer spam to
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Chapman on January 09, 2011, 07:43:30 pm
I agree. Throwing weapons got an indirect buff from other ranged getting a nerf.

I do not understand why throwing weapons do so much pierce damage while their polearm counterparts thrust attacks do much less.

My Ideas:

 - Add a proper reload animation for throwing weapons. (Taking throwing axes out of the bag, Javelins, Jarid's, e.t.c.)

 - Remove the shotgun effect, involve precise timing. (Similar to archery longer you hold down the button the more inaccurate it gets)
 
 - Reduce the damage slightly.

 - Increase accuracy significantly

 - Increase WPF affect on accuracy significantly

Would love to see throwing become something more of a tactical support role used with smarts, not an arcady point blank shotgun class.
I agree with all of this
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 09, 2011, 07:52:49 pm
Mostly fine, BUT the shotgun effect is the only advantage of throwing weapons: they are much slower, worse range, definitely less ammo. I think we've payed for that non-decreasing accuracy.

The other things are good:
-The animation allows too much rate of fire, especially with knives.
-Damage may be too high now, with the decrease in armor, especially with the relatively long-range javelins/jarids/throwing weapon of overcompensation.
-Accuracy is still more or less a luck game, and that's never good.
-I'm close to 100 WPF in throwing, and that shit's still not very accurate.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Leiknir on January 09, 2011, 08:05:14 pm
Thrown stuff flies slow as hell. If you are aware, you won't get hit. Except on very close range, but somewhere it has to be effective. If you are a cav guy riding in a straight line near enemy throwers, well, your fault.

Also, take into account that we have to upkeep each stack of throwing. A guy with 16 jarids has to pay equipment worth 7700*4 = 30800 for his weapons alone, add another 10k for a medium armor set. Ofc they need to be stronger than the usual 30k total-equipment guy.
If it gets nerfed, make it cheaper, too.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Vexus on January 09, 2011, 08:08:23 pm
My biggest gripe is the accuracy there's an archer sniping and he didn't notice me so I stand still and try to hit him with heavy war darts I tried 4 times before being able to hit him!! that's half a stack for fking sake.

It's very hard to make headshots with throwing if I had a xbow I could have ended the show in 1 bolt or maybe 2.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 04:19:35 pm
My Ideas:

 - Add a proper reload animation for throwing weapons. (Taking throwing axes out of the bag, Javelins, Jarid's, e.t.c.)

 - Remove the shotgun effect, involve precise timing. (Similar to archery longer you hold down the button the more inaccurate it gets)
 
 - Reduce the damage slightly.

 - Increase accuracy significantly

 - Increase WPF affect on accuracy significantly

Would love to see throwing become something more of a tactical support role used with smarts, not an arcady point blank shotgun class.

Also, slight reduction of projectile speed. Other than that, i agree wholeheartly.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Vammo75 on January 10, 2011, 06:50:27 pm


My Ideas:

 - Add a proper reload animation for throwing weapons. (Taking throwing axes out of the bag, Javelins, Jarid's, e.t.c.)

 - Remove the shotgun effect, involve precise timing. (Similar to archery longer you hold down the button the more inaccurate it gets)
 
 - Reduce the damage slightly.

 - Increase accuracy significantly

 - Increase WPF affect on accuracy significantly

Would love to see throwing become something more of a tactical support role used with smarts, not an arcady point blank shotgun class.
 

I agree with the above post in the main. I think an across-the-board reduction in damage would be bad: knives, daggers, war darts and darts would be unusable, everything with damage above those should have it reduced (think of the powerthrow of the people using them).
The only throwing weapons I cannot dodge at close range with are lances. I would support getting rid of the PT effect on accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: LordRichrich on January 10, 2011, 06:58:22 pm
Yeah, I got one shotted by a throwing axe to the chest while I had 48 body armour
I also got one shotted in the leg with 30 body armour
A bit silly tbh!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 10, 2011, 07:02:39 pm
How did that happen? I only one-shot people with headshots. I need at least 2-3 to the chest to anyone not in a linen shirt.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 07:05:36 pm
How did that happen? I only one-shot people with headshots. I need at least 2-3 to the chest to anyone not in a linen shirt.
High PT ? I was one hit killed by gnjus's axe when i used heraldic mail.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 10, 2011, 07:08:20 pm
I have 5, and I can't imagine anyone having more than 7-8 with the current patch. That's not a really huge difference... dunno.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Leiknir on January 10, 2011, 07:26:13 pm
I have 5, and I can't imagine anyone having more than 7-8 with the current patch. That's not a really huge difference... dunno.

There are some with 10+, thats where the whining has to be directed, not towards the usual throwers with a balanced build.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 10, 2011, 07:27:58 pm
10+ PT means 30+ str. That's only possible with very-very low agility -> low WP -> low throwing WPF -> laughable accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 07:28:16 pm
There are some with 10+, thats where the whining has to be directed, not towards the usual throwers with a balanced build.

Some templar had 13.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 10, 2011, 07:30:58 pm
That was Damugger, before the patch. He was throwing stones all over the place, it was very accurate, but I don't think he pulled it off with the new system again.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 10, 2011, 07:34:02 pm
That was Damugger, before the patch. He was throwing stones all over the place, it was very accurate, but I don't think he pulled it off with the new system again.

He did it! :shock:
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Siboire on January 10, 2011, 07:46:07 pm
I'm doing a dedicated thrower (lvl 26-27 right now) and I can tell you we pay a LOT to manage to get that amount of damage. First of all the throwing weapons are freakin expensive like said above (need to carry 3-4 packages and throwing weapons like jarids are like impossible to use all the time) so in order to do more damage with lower tier throwing weapon I need to invest pretty much ALL my points into str to pump PT! Therefore I'm REaLLY slow (only 1 athletics) and whenever I'm trying to defend myself with a melee weapon I can get easily spammed cuz I'm too slow! Same thing for when I'm running away (more like crawling with medium armor)! And on top of it, the range is crappy so I need to stay near the melee even at 9 PT and almost 100 WPF! So I'm really vulnerable! Anybody can run up to me and spam me to death, even peasants if they have PS to pierce trough my armor.

For all those sacrifices we (dedicated throwers) should not get a nerf. We are sacrificing so much in order to make a couple of kills (and much of them are lucky shots with our crappy accuracy!). So don't complain if some of you guys got 1 shotted by luck by a thrower that is paying like 7700 (price of jarids)*0.05(% of price to pay for upkeep)*4 packages= 1540 gold just for the upkeep of a round if unlucky enough and that's without the armor! Beside, if we miss too much we can't do shit cuz good throwing weapons only have 4 ammo per package which gives me a total of 16 ammo for a whole round and that's if I don't have a shield!!! Hell! Crossbows have the potentiel to do a hell more damage, they also cost a lot less to upkeep and they are wayyy more accurate with enough WPF now with the patch!

Seriously nerfing throwing would be really stupid. Remember all the "sacrifices" we need to do to be good throwers...
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ishar on January 10, 2011, 10:02:43 pm
I'd still give damage for accuracy any day.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Spawny on January 10, 2011, 10:08:18 pm
He did it! :shock:

Dastikka has 13 PT atm, GoGoPowerThrow has 12 and I'm heading to 12 too. All Templars.

FEAR US!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: EponiCo on January 10, 2011, 11:38:32 pm
Not really. At level 30 you can still easily get a heater/huscarl shield and do loads of damage to mid armor with javelins/jarids. It's also in price limit afaik. If someone jumps in your face you just turtle up, and unless he has a shieldbreaking weapon it will never break before you get save by allies (or backstabbed). As long as you have allies around, he can't keep fighting you, but he also can't let you get away.

edit: Of course anyone can do it ... there were a few horse archers who just shot, and when they got shot at pulled out a shield on rode away on armored horses.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Keltesh on January 10, 2011, 11:44:36 pm
I'd still give damage for accuracy any day.

Each point of PT gives accuracy equivalent to 23 wpf if I'm not mistaken.  I have 10 pt and my rocks/daggers are deadly accurate, I can snipe with them, and javs are at least bow accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Deathwind on January 10, 2011, 11:51:15 pm
Throwing weapons get little accuracy reduction when moving, so I wouldn't be complaining about accuracy. Pre-patch, I played a thrower with 8 PT, and I got a few kills with my balanced heavy throwing axes every round. I don't like the idea of being a "pure thrower with a shield" so I usually died pretty quickly as I carried a melee weapon and 3 stacks of throwing weapons. Even now, I do something similar. Don't forget you can pick up your ammo, and the high damage is compensation for such little ammo you get.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Cheap_Shot on January 14, 2011, 08:07:12 am
The only way I'd be content with a slight damage reduction is if the ammo capacity were increased. People can whine and complain about getting killed by a thrower, but 9 times out of 10 the thrower probably died pretty shortly after. I either go 3 stacks of jarrids (12 shots) and a shield, or three stacks and a sword, or two stacks a sword and a shield. This means that most of my ammo is expended within the first minute or two of combat, and in a large population server you become near useless unless you are super skilled and dont die while scavenging. If anyone comes at you with a higher level shield you waste most of your ammo right there. (Which is terrible considering thrown weapons text states that they're supposed to be very effective against shields) It costs most of your points to get up to the high levels of power throw required to get one hit kills, not to mention having next to no agility, so I'm very ineffective at melee and I can't run away from anyone. This is a problem if your weapons are slow and need to be used at closer range.

The people who are one shotting other players with thrown weapons are either hitting people with poor armor (who would get one shotted by a 2 hander or a crossbow anyway), or they have very high powerthrow which takes a lot to achieve and is only possible at high levels with points only in throwing abilities. More accuracy isn't needed. You can comp for that and do ok. It takes a lot of skill to use throwing weapons effectively and I don't really think they need altering in any way. The only problem is that everyone started using them because archery was nerfed. Maybe now that archery is more balanced people will go back to it. Continuing to nerf whatever the whiners pick of the week is wont ever make the game balanced.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Brutal on January 14, 2011, 08:31:52 am
Each point of PT gives accuracy equivalent to 23 wpf if I'm not mistaken.  I have 10 pt and my rocks/daggers are deadly accurate, I can snipe with them, and javs are at least bow accuracy.
Did you see the speed on rock ? :shock: it s almost 3 time slower than a arrow try snipping with a ballistic missile it s the same. It's almost impossible to snipe an archer at 20m that is aware because he will see the projectile incoming and have time to dodge.

As for jav being as accurate as bow, you just don t know what you're talking about. A level 3 archer is far far more accurate than a dude with 10PT with 100wpf shooting jav.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Cheap_Shot on January 14, 2011, 08:42:22 am
As for jav being as accurate as bow, you just don t know what you're talking about. A level 3 archer is far far more accurate than a dude with 10PT with 100wpf shooting jav.

I have 10 powerthrow and 100 wpf and can confirm this. My accuracy isn't terrible but the reticule is still fairly wide. Archery is far far more accurate no matter what anyone says. Like I said though, I'm fine with that. If you want accuracy, get a bow or a crossbow. Throwing is about high risk for high reward, not precision sniping. Throwing is fine the way it is when you consider all it's disadvantages. (and no one does :rolleyes:)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Siiem on January 14, 2011, 12:35:39 pm
10+ PT means 30+ str. That's only possible with very-very low agility -> low WP -> low throwing WPF -> laughable accuracy.


I do belive more PT = more accuracy. So throwers are benefited to go high str. I know there are some people out there who can reliably hit me with jarids/javelins on medium distances.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Thomek on January 16, 2011, 05:20:17 pm
I agree throwing is broken, and feels unadjusted for the new level-cap.

PT should not add accuracy, because it also adds damage.

With the slowing of projectiles, the lighter throwing weapons like snowflakes are almost useless, because you can't hit shit with them. Might as well go throwing lances for 20x efficiency. Throwing weapons were made slower to increase the level of "player skill" required to use them. I do not feel they work as intended because people dodge all the time by moving randomly. The skill involved is being able to look into the future, which is nearly impossible.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Grey on January 16, 2011, 05:45:24 pm
My dedicated thrower has (level 21) PT3 and javs, 18 agility, 100 polearms wpf, 120 throwing: I can run fast, carry 3 stacks and a 1/4staff for defence, get loads of kills at mid to short range: BUT SAME THING APPLIES TO ARCHERS, XBOWS: Shooting an aware target who is taking evasive is NOT easy, and nor is it supposed to be. It SHOULD be impossible. You have to throw/shoot people not aware, if we could all shoot whoever we wanted whenever we wanted, then this WOULD be counterstrike: I wish pure melees would see this: ITS SO EASY to dodge arrows AND axes, they just dont take any measures to avoid, then come here and post about how OP ALL RANGED is. Currently throwing feels OP when your on the recieving end, but its not easy from delivery side of it.

To those who are moaning that they got 1shot by a throwing axe while wearing mail: GOOD, thats SUPPOSED to happen: You caught an axe in your chest: YOUR DEAD. Why is that hard to understand? Its my opinion, and just that: All toptier ranged weapons should 1shot anyone regardless of their armour. Remember, I am on recieving end of all attacks too, AND I support Reflect Team Damage 100%, I dont want the game easier for me, I want it MUCH harder for EVERYONE. Then all the guys who never even played native can fuck off and l2p, THEN come back and be helpful teammembers, not shitty teamhitters who spam in melee and whine that they get shot when they run in straight lines. Stop trying to change the game and make it easier, the harder it gets, the better it is.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: bruce on January 16, 2011, 07:56:22 pm
I suggest a variety of shooter games, Grey, they might be what you're really looking for.

The thing is, there is a huge variety of FPS shooters. There's really only a few games about medieval combat (which do not entertain the leglolaszz bullshit crowd).


Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ganon on January 16, 2011, 08:24:47 pm
After seeing full throwing specced characters, i must agree with the OP now, throwing can oneshot a full str lvl31 character wearing plate, that's a little too much.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Seawied on January 16, 2011, 08:27:55 pm
I have a dedicated thrower. A REALLY dedicated thrower. As in EVERY POINT CONVERTED INTO STRENGTH FOR MORE PT thrower.

Thats my build. 1 WM, 1 shield, rest all in PT or converted to strength.

1 Shotting people with jarids is rare.



As for accuracy? I think its actually a bit on the high side right now. I say nerf damage on all throwing weapons above war darts (Axes, javalins, etc) by 15-20%, reduce the accuracy of all throwing weapons, reduce the penalty for throwing while moving (meaning more accurate while moving forward,) but increase the projectile speed by around 5. Currently throwing weapons just float through the air at unrealistically slow speeds. If a baseball pitcher can throw a ball at 90-95 miles an hour consistently, a rock should go faster than 30 miles an hour.

for those who say PT=more accuracy. That used to be the case, but I believe they changed it last patch. Not 100% certain. WPF seems to have an effect on accuracy now and PT doesn't make a jarring difference from level to level. I'll have to experiment some.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Vexus on January 16, 2011, 08:29:58 pm
I saw an increase in accuracy on thrower alt but don't expect a X aim it's still very wide.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Teeth on January 16, 2011, 11:19:06 pm
I won't say throwing is OP, but it should be made less attractive by higher price or higher requirements, cause throwing is a bit overused. Eight out of ten people have a throwing weapon nowadays. Im a shieldless 2h, buying a shield is not an option. It messes with my awesomeness. I accept that i get hit by throwers once in a while, but this is a bit too much.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Paprik on January 17, 2011, 12:26:50 am
I agree with most that has been said. Throwing is actually one of few things I find imbalanced. It's like a siege xbow melee style with insanely fast reload. What. The. Shit.

I know the aiming reticule is larger, but it's comparable to a bow/xbow while walking and that's easy to pull of in shorter distances as well. If we were gonna go all realistic and stuff - throwing should be probably more accurate, but way less melee-abusable. Right now I feel like it's a melee weapon with the longest reach and way higher damage than the actual polearms.

Im a shieldless 2h, buying a shield is not an option. It messes with my awesomeness.

Made me lol :D But yeah, awesomeness should be respected.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Boughtthefarm on January 17, 2011, 01:19:53 pm
I agree with most that has been said. Throwing is actually one of few things I find imbalanced. It's like a siege xbow melee style with insanely fast reload. What. The. Shit.

I know the aiming reticule is larger, but it's comparable to a bow/xbow while walking and that's easy to pull of in shorter distances as well. If we were gonna go all realistic and stuff - throwing should be probably more accurate, but way less melee-abusable. Right now I feel like it's a melee weapon with the longest reach and way higher damage than the actual polearms.

Made me lol :D But yeah, awesomeness should be respected.

Well as a Thrower who has Power Throw 6 I find the above statements a shame, funny at times though.
I carry 8 Axes (not 50 arrows), I have a shield and a broad axe, wear light chain - I rarely get in the top ten and on average kill as many as the times I die.  So as an average player I think Throwing is not OP.

Spending more of my time being spammed down by 2H Tincans with Massive Sword or Bar Mace, there are little of few pleasures better than the rare Headshot.  On average I throw 3-5 axes before hitting and that does not kill.  If its a person climbing a ladder my hit rate goes up, if the target is a break dancing, lunge leaping cartwheeling tincan its hard to get any hits at all.  If the person carries a shield they are protected for 2-5 axe hits, so they can close, so whats the big complaint?

Occasionally when the stars are in alignment and the luck runs with me not against I might kill a few people, but I have thrown four axes point blank and missed !!

So come on, dont nerf throwing just because people are too poor to always wear tin and PT10+ players can hit often (when do these people get time to get that?).
Otherwise you just adjust whatever looks slighty better while people complain that their normal 55 kills to 2 deaths mega slaughter is reduced

Dont take away the small pleasure of the rare kill, throwing at a tin can running towards me with 2H Mace/Boulder/Axe/Sword over his head confident that he always wins.

Also do note that the chance of killing enemy with single shot is equal to accidental TK's - sorry for those by the way, it happens, but on the whole I never fire into melles, dont have enough ammo to do these things unlike XBow\Archer

All I am saying is give throwing a chance  :D
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Brutal on January 17, 2011, 01:54:02 pm
For information below is a comparison of accuracy between a dedicated thrower with 10pt and 105 wpf and a dedicated bowman with 6PD and 8wm all wpf into archery.

(click to show/hide)

cons:
-To get this kind of accuracy a thrower as to have a strength build so he's slow as hell and inefficient in duel (unlike archer).
-Projectile speed is 3 time less for throwing
-only accurate a short range
-You've 5 time less munition
-Weapon are more expensive for thrower
-Archer can 2 shoot with a war bow just like a thrower from way longer ranges (look at archer build topic)
-Almost same firing rate

pros:
-reticule doesn't expand as much as archer while moving (but archer might still be narrower didn't check)
-damage (no 2 hits just like archer)
-more hp ?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Kalam on January 17, 2011, 01:57:31 pm
As for accuracy? I think its actually a bit on the high side right now. I say nerf damage on all throwing weapons above war darts (Axes, javalins, etc) by 15-20%, reduce the accuracy of all throwing weapons, reduce the penalty for throwing while moving (meaning more accurate while moving forward,) but increase the projectile speed by around 5. Currently throwing weapons just float through the air at unrealistically slow speeds. If a baseball pitcher can throw a ball at 90-95 miles an hour consistently, a rock should go faster than 30 miles an hour.

+1.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Leiknir on January 17, 2011, 03:17:53 pm
On the paper all your math seems right, my Huscarl hurls axes and I got a Nord Scout, throwing stuff from horses. The "problem" with throwing is, as soon as your target is aware you want to hit him, you won't be able to, people can go get a tea while they wait for the throwing stuff incoming. It's even worse on my Nord Scout, when riding full speed I am scared of throwing infront of me, one day I will kill myself due to overtaking the projectile.

The simple solution would be nerfing PT, buffing throwing wpf and speed (Maybe hack a way into the game to make throwing speed = throwers speed * weapon speed). Similiar to what was done to archery, to reduce the full strenght lol-builds there.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Paprik on January 17, 2011, 04:45:43 pm
Well as a Thrower who has Power Throw 6 I find the above statements a shame, funny at times though.
I carry 8 Axes (not 50 arrows), I have a shield and a broad axe, wear light chain - I rarely get in the top ten and on average kill as many as the times I die.  So as an average player I think Throwing is not OP.

Well, sir, while I fully respect your opinion, there's even throwers in this thread that suggest some nerfing changes.

As for accuracy? I think its actually a bit on the high side right now. I say nerf damage on all throwing weapons above war darts (Axes, javalins, etc) by 15-20%, reduce the accuracy of all throwing weapons, reduce the penalty for throwing while moving (meaning more accurate while moving forward,) but increase the projectile speed by around 5. Currently throwing weapons just float through the air at unrealistically slow speeds. If a baseball pitcher can throw a ball at 90-95 miles an hour consistently, a rock should go faster than 30 miles an hour.

This seems very reasonable.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: ShinySpoons on January 18, 2011, 05:03:01 am
I can perma stun people with 40-50 armour using throwing knives with 6pt 100wpf :o

The ease of reloading between shots should be decreased but compensated for by an increase in accuracy and a return to pre-patch flight speeds.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Seawied on January 18, 2011, 10:54:19 am
I can perma stun people with 40-50 armour using throwing knives with 6pt 100wpf :o

The ease of reloading between shots should be decreased but compensated for by an increase in accuracy and a return to pre-patch flight speeds.

pre-patch flight speeds were a bit much in my opinion.

I could be wrong though. I didn't spend nearly as much time on my thrower then as I do now. I think it was stated that throwing moved a projectile faster than a bow did.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Gnjus on January 18, 2011, 02:10:30 pm
High PT ? I was one hit killed by gnjus's axe when i used heraldic mail.

Rare luck, my PT is 6 and i need more then 1 heavy axe for most of the people out there, even headshots dont kill 'em, they just keep running around with axes sticking out of their heads.  :wink:
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 18, 2011, 02:32:19 pm
I can perma stun people with 40-50 armour using throwing knives with 6pt 100wpf :o

The ease of reloading between shots should be decreased but compensated for by an increase in accuracy and a return to pre-patch flight speeds.

Yeah, throwing weapons reload too fast. I'm ok with powerful throws (maybe not as powerful as current, but i feel that there should be damage reduction across the board) that are accurate and actual throwing take little time. I only ask for reload animations to take some time (i even agree that shield user can block with shield when he reloads), so throwers don't act like machineguns.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Raskolnikov on January 18, 2011, 05:07:13 pm
As Leiknir said, as soon as your target knows you're trying to hit them, it becomes almost impossible to hit them.

Dedicated throwers must have it quite tough. I'm not brave enough to go all the way, so I have a hybrid. Roughly half of my kills are made using a barmace or morningstar. Ideally foes are dead before they get to me, but since it's so diffcult to hit a maneuvering enemy, I usually just expect to soften them up before the inevitable melee. If I'm lucky, high PS allows my to down them quickly; against good blockers with fast footwork and high agility, I'm usually dead - sometimes before I can even switch to a melee weapon.

Personally, I don't really want to see throwing damage getting reduced, but would consider supporting it if it meant an increase in projectile speed and accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Boughtthefarm on January 19, 2011, 12:06:50 pm
Well, sir, while I fully respect your opinion, there's even throwers in this thread that suggest some nerfing changes.


Many thanks, however I think the nerfers are looking at a PT of 10!!  I would need 30 Str to do that, I dont think I have enough free time to ever get that high??

Surely throwing is just showing up more as more people have started on the low cost knife option.  I suggest let it stand for a few more months and then review.

Gives me more time to enjoy the very rare headshot !!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Boughtthefarm on January 19, 2011, 12:13:18 pm
For information below is a comparison of accuracy between a dedicated thrower with 10pt and 105 wpf and a dedicated bowman with 6PD and 8wm all wpf into archery.

I think this is a case in point 10pt??  I must not be a proper thrower with only Power Throw 6.

Surely this is a rare thrower??? Or am I completely off mark?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Spawny on January 19, 2011, 12:36:23 pm
Meh... I'm getting there. 1 more level for PT 10. I'll hit level 27 then.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Wulzzz on January 19, 2011, 01:09:21 pm
Have you guys even tried making a thrower char?
I made one with 10 PT using heavy axes and well..
MOST of the time i don't even kill 1 enemy because the accuracy isn't ultra 1337, i can easily get raped by cav if i don't spot them early enough, my moving speed and weapon swing speed is shitty.And some guys can easily evade my axes even when they run towards me.....And no, 10PT can't hit 1 ANYONE.Full black armor needs over 2 heavy axes btw


Ye sometimes it happens that 1 thrower kill 5 people in 1 round, it also happens that 1 cav,1 ninja char, etc etc kill 7 in 1 round
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Brutal on January 19, 2011, 02:28:19 pm
@Wulzzz
You should try javelin for better accuracy and range, heavy axes are fine but for very close range only.
only problem with jav,jarrid and spears is that they often go right trough the enemy without hitting them. hitbox are messed up

 
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Meow on January 19, 2011, 03:30:16 pm
Well let me put it like this:
I often end up in the top 10 on the score board but pretty much never hit the first place ever although i would count myself to the better throwing players.

Throwing as it is right now requires good judgment of the shot speed especially on axes and a portion of luck as the throws still are really random.
People who run straight at a thrower with their shields up and keep going after their shield explodes are just stupid... same for jumpers except when they are really close.

There are quite a few people who know how to evade throws which are almost impossible to hit for me.

I see how people can get frustrated about throwing but then again it's the same with 2h spamming, shields, archers, crossbows and cav...

I still think making throwing accuracy dependent on WPF will reduce the amount of throwers without hitting dedicated throwers too hard while and it will also slightly nerf the damage as some agi will be required for Weapon Master.
The big problem right now really is the flood of throwers if you take a look at the ground you see as much throwing stuff as arrows and bolts which sure is bad for everyone without a decent shield.

You've just been Tomahawked.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Boughtthefarm on January 19, 2011, 04:15:57 pm
Well let me put it like this:
I often end up in the top 10 on the score board but pretty much never hit the first place ever although i would count myself to the better throwing players.

Throwing as it is right now requires good judgment of the shot speed especially on axes and a portion of luck as the throws still are really random.
People who run straight at a thrower with their shields up and keep going after their shield explodes are just stupid... same for jumpers except when they are really close.

There are quite a few people who know how to evade throws which are almost impossible to hit for me.

I see how people can get frustrated about throwing but then again it's the same with 2h spamming, shields, archers, crossbows and cav...

I still think making throwing accuracy dependent on WPF will reduce the amount of throwers without hitting dedicated throwers too hard while and it will also slightly nerf the damage as some agi will be required for Weapon Master.
The big problem right now really is the flood of throwers if you take a look at the ground you see as much throwing stuff as arrows and bolts which sure is bad for everyone without a decent shield.

You've just been Tomahawked.

Agreed, and also lots more throwers means more ammo to pickup, but as you say its still a challenge.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Camaris on January 20, 2011, 03:49:00 am
Yesterday i got onehitted 2-3 times with no headshot by a thrower called Franciska_Lance or something like that.
Now you could say: 1 hits and throwing that is nothing special it happens very often.

But i am a 21 STR Build (ok no IF) and had a complete Gothic Plate (Plate-Foots, Sugarloaf, Plate Mittens, Gothic Plate)
How the hell is this throwingbitch able to oneshot a fullplate????

PS: Dont take that "throwingbitch" to serious but thats the correct name to them after patch in our teamspeak ;)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Reinhardt on January 20, 2011, 03:55:51 am
Yesterday i got onehitted 2-3 times with no headshot by a thrower called Franciska_Lance or something like that.
Now you could say: 1 hits and throwing that is nothing special it happens very often.

But i am a 21 STR Build (ok no IF) and had a complete Gothic Plate (Plate-Foots, Sugarloaf, Plate Mittens, Gothic Plate)
How the hell is this throwingbitch able to oneshot a fullplate????

PS: Dont take that "throwingbitch" to serious but thats the correct name to them after patch in our teamspeak ;)

First, lol. Nice.

Second, I agree. Throwers are.. annoying because of their popularity.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: RomoR on January 20, 2011, 04:25:54 am
One of my characters is a Hybrid 10PT and 10 PS, 2 hand / thrower and I average 3-4 kills a round  with throwing axes, and I Mostly just use the throwing axes I start out with.

At first I chose them to get some range against archers and runners because I'm mega slow and never catch up to them with my great axe, also they are excellent against cav, I can guaranty you no sane cavalry man will get close to you if he sees you with throwing axes :) , after a little time it became obvious I could kill anything with them, even plate with 2, max 3 hits.
I find it extremely easy to get kills, lots of them 1 hit kills even with the 70ish in WPF, true I'm full strength but still It seems rather easy just spamming some axes and getting kills.

I gave RomoR a rest because I got tired grinding to 31 (half way there) and am now playing my alt RimiR, a Shield and pike and have noticed a  increase in throwers, its evident people know how dangerous a high power thrower player can be and at the same time having good survivability with a shield or even just keeping your  distance while spamming stuff so I can see it getting worse, and the more throwers the more ammunition they have to pick up from the ground.

A simple solution would be to make it impossible to pick up a thrown weapon, (if its possible at all) this would limit the throwers to there starting equipment, it would still  be a viable option against archers or cavalry but at the same time  bring down the hail of stuff being thrown.

Edited for some clarity.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 20, 2011, 04:43:35 am
One of my characters is a Hybrid 10PT and 10 PS, 2 hand / thrower and I average 3-4 kills a round  with throwing axes, and I Mostly just use the throwing axes I start out with.

At first I chose them to get some range against archers and runners because I'm mega slow and never catch up to them with my great axe, also they are excellent against cav, I can guaranty you no sane cavalry man will get close to you if he sees you with throwing axes :) , after a little time it became obvious I could kill anything with them, even plate with 2, max 3 hits.
I find it extremely easy to get kills, lots of them 1 hit kills even with the 70ish in WPF, true I'm full strength but still It seems rather easy just spamming some axes and getting kills.

I gave RomoR a rest because I got tired grinding to 31 (half way there) and am now playing my alt RimiR, a Shield and pike and have noticed a  increase in throwers, its evident people know how dangerous a high power thrower player can be and at the same time having good survivability with a shield or even just keeping your  distance while spamming stuff so I can see it getting worse, and the more throwers the more ammunition they have to pick up from the ground.

A simple solution would be to make it impossible to pick up a thrown weapon, (if its possible at all) this would limit the throwers to there starting equipment, it would still  be a viable option against archers or cavalry but at the same time  bring down the hail of stuff being thrown.

Edited for some clarity.

Maybe just decrease amount of junk in one slot *hint*
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: ITHROWSHIT on January 20, 2011, 08:44:51 am
Ok this is getting ridiculous, why are we nerfing everything? this game is fun because it is highly lethal! the realism is its strength, and the prospect of becoming ultra powerful makes it addicting.

before the patch, some players could become invincible superheros. ok, cool, awesome, this games rad! what? why are people complaining? teams would rally behind their leader and fear their nemesis, it was fun! chadz: please stop greasing the squeaky wheels, youll spoil them.

formula: Impossible lethality + prospect of gaining an unfair advantage = successful online game

current events: toy weapons (safe for our younger players) + relentless stat balancing = ok im getting over it

why do you have to work just to build up to average level? its no longer possible to be an elite character, so why is there any RPG element to it at all? I had a problem with gauntlets reloading xbows, i had a problem with heavy charger horse archers, i had a problem with wearing leather armor and being outrun by tincans, and i had a problem with arrows breaking shields. besides those things, the game had no problems before the patch.

I like the upkeep system fine, but would rather see more tincans around, and would rather the archers were actually useful. personally I dont like the foam tipped arrows, I liked the fear that kept my huscarl high over my head and the mad dashes from cover to cover - now I stopped using a shield because archers are near useless now. I get finished off by an occasional arrow, but basically archers dont exist - cuz no one plays archer anymore!
throwing is the new archery, its dumb, bring archery back! ok guys, now that the archers are taken care of, whos next!?!?! people are gunna play ranged, get over it and host your own melee only server (everyone here will thank you)

I enjoy some good shots when sneaking around, in a hallway, or on top of a staircase (provided they dont have a shield) but throwing is not easy or OP.  When i see another thrower i laugh, take out my melee weapon, and enjoy an easy kill.

I PROPOSE AN ALTERNATE DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY: IF YOU THINK SOMETHING IS OVERPOWERED, INSTEAD OF NERFING IT YOU SHOULD BUFF EVERYTHING ELSE! I WANT TO REACH LEVEL 80 AND BLOW PEOPLE 30 FEET ACROSS THE MAP IN ONE SWING TO DIE FROM FALLING DAMAGE! I WANT TO FIRE 6 ARROWS AT ONCE THAT KNOCK PEOPLE DOWN! I WANT TO THROW LANCES THROUGH MULTIPLE PEOPLE AND PIN THEIR RAGDOLLS TO THE WALL! I WANT TO USE SIEGE LADDERS AS A 2H CLUB!!!!!!!! soo much potential.....
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Siiem on January 20, 2011, 09:12:24 am
It's a beta, when things are found to function incorrectly or in an exploitive manner... it gets changed. Live with it. It's certainly not done with nerfing/readjusting.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Meow on January 20, 2011, 02:24:15 pm
Yesterday i got onehitted 2-3 times with no headshot by a thrower called Franciska_Lance or something like that.
Now you could say: 1 hits and throwing that is nothing special it happens very often.

But i am a 21 STR Build (ok no IF) and had a complete Gothic Plate (Plate-Foots, Sugarloaf, Plate Mittens, Gothic Plate)
How the hell is this throwingbitch able to oneshot a fullplate????

PS: Dont take that "throwingbitch" to serious but thats the correct name to them after patch in our teamspeak ;)

might want to add what kind of weapon it was as most people in chain survive two throwing axes. so i figure you were killed by throwing lances which would require you to zombielike rushing into the thrower to give him a chance to actually hit you with any of the two shots he gets for each slot used on those...

the whole nerfing is just getting out of hand.
if you demand less ammo and less damage for throwing you might as well remove it.
if you can't kill people with one of the four stacks of ammo you get there is no point in bringing those weapons.

it's like requesting to nerf all melee weapons and make them do half damage...it would make the game freaking boring.
i play this game because people die after one or two good hits. no need to nerf everything into the ground untill it feels like an arcade beat em up...

most people miss the point that they are not supposed to run up to ranged toons in a straight line with a chambered overhead...
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Boughtthefarm on January 20, 2011, 02:49:01 pm
it's like requesting to nerf all melee weapons and make them do half damage...it would make the game freaking boring.
i play this game because people die after one or two good hits. no need to nerf everything into the ground untill it feels like an arcade beat em up...

most people miss the point that they are not supposed to run up to ranged toons in a straight line with a chambered overhead...

Agreed, and as a person who often dies fast, that does not stop me playing.  You are also correct about the overhead nutters, but it is funny when they do run at yah :)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Jalum on January 20, 2011, 07:55:56 pm

Hi everyone.   10PT,  30Str checking in.  My weapon slots are all throwing weapons.  I have 1 Athletics.

Damage Output

Infantry and Horsebumpers can potentially inflict as much damage as the enemy team has in life.  They never run out of stamina by swinging their arm.  Moving close to them does not interrupt or negate their attacks, but they must be in melee range to inflict this damage.

Warbow + Bodkin Arrows can inflict a total of 1632 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Moving close to an archer interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to shoot their bow.  The archer can inflict damage from long range.

Crossbow + Steel Bolts can inflict a total of 3735 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Moving close to the xbowman interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to shoot their xbow.  The xbowman can inflict damage from extreme range.

Throwing Lances in all slots can inflict 480 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Jarids, a much more common choice, would enable the Thrower to inflict 640 damage if all sixteen jarids hit.  Moving close to the Thrower interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to throw their weapon.  They can switch to alternate melee mode, but this is not a competent fighting style.  The Thrower can inflict damage only in short to medium ranges.

Upkeep Cost of the Weapon System

Infantry - Melee weapons don't break or run out of ammunition.  A dedicated 2h or polearm user might only have one weapon slot used.  A 1H + Shield guy might go with an Elite Scimitar and Huscarl Round Shield.  So probably 10-15k to give the player a competitive fighting weapon.  They can add additional weapons on top if they want damage type variety, but that's a bit of a luxury right now.

Cav - Probably as above, plus a 10-20k horse.  You can do it for much less with a mediocre horse and that really long 1H axe that Lady GaGa uses.  I equip my cav character in less than 20k total.

Archers and Xbow - 23k for the Warbow and Bodkins, 25k for Sniper Crossbow and Steel Bolts.

Throwers - 44k for eight throwing lances.  30k for sixteen jarids.

Please remember that the above totals are only for the weapon systems.  chadz has stated that right now the system is balanced so that 48.5k is about the breakeven point for gold upkeep.  This would limit a throwing lance character to less than 5k to cover his head, body, legs, hands, and horse.

So, yeah...I'm not really understanding the calls for nerfs.  Let me ask you this:

When was the last time you were dead/spectating in a match, and it was a thrown weapon guy who was the final holdout?  It never happens.  It's always a Cav character who tries to solo the remains of the other team, Walt F4 (who usually successfully solos the remains of the other team), or an archer hidden in a tree shooting arrows from a thousand meters away.  It's never a Thrower because Throwers die fast and easy.

No one bats an eye when top end melee characters, cav characters, or archers top the kill lists.  But now that Throwers are getting up there, people have problems.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Tai Feng on January 26, 2011, 12:46:45 am
I'm getting 1 shotted with throwing weapons too often, and that's with javelins and axes (not lances or jarids) on my elite armor altogether (even my Charger got one shotted with axe). I love the idea of throwing weapons and skrimishes, but while I'm constantly getting shot by throwing weapons and can't even remember being one-shotted by crossbow - there's something wrong here.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Eveneska on January 26, 2011, 12:57:15 am
I have to agree with this post. There seems to be way to much throwing in matches and it takes a lot away from melee. The damage does not make sense on some of the higher items as somebody already mentioned. Their melee version does half the damage (throwing lances). Whereas I think the knives and star are fine on damage, the upper items need damage to be reduced. Throwing should be a secondary focus...not a primary spam throwing build.
I think most people would agree on this apart from those that are using it.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Thomek on January 26, 2011, 12:57:20 am
When was the last time you were dead/spectating in a match, and it was a thrown weapon guy who was the final holdout?  It never happens.

lol you never saw Gnjus?

Main problem is not pure throwers, although they are dangerous before they die, they are not the main culprit. As I see it, investing 6-7 points in throwing in stead of useless IF (if shielder), and some wpf (because of the rather hard wpf capping, hybrids are much more economical) makes you extremely dangerous.

I think the problem of throwers lie in 2 places:

1. Powerthrow adds accuracy.
2. WPF cap is too hard atm, and hybrids are much much more economical wpf wise.

Solution:

1. Remove most if not all of Powerthrow-based accuracy.
2. Soften the wpf capping a little
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: krauth on January 26, 2011, 01:03:16 am
Just throwing an idea around. What I was thinking is that either power throw, or the weight of the weapon could decrease accuracy slightly, requiring a reasonable amount of wpf to compensate.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2011, 01:23:47 am
I agree with Thomek here, the biggest problem is 1h+ throwing hybrids with shields who constantly backpedal. Something should be done with throwing, everyone and his mom/dad/goldfish has throwing nowadays and it is not even close to the word " balanced " . I've started this topic some time ago, but now things are getting even worse and so far there is no end to it.

I see three solutions :

- drastic decrease of the "reload speed" of throwing weapons .  Backpedalling won't be as annoying and deadly.    *My personal favorite*

- significant decrease in the amount of profectiles per stack

- moderate damage reduction. Although i believe this won't solve the problem now anyway, throwing is still too good to not have it

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 01:24:03 am
2. Soften the wpf capping a little

It just brings us back the problems which led to the wpf cap being there, without making it somehow more or less economical to build a hybrid. As long as throwing rapes as it does now, people will grab it. It doesn't even matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, because one shot will kill lightly armoured/no IF people and two kill most if not all players. Spam it at a crowd and you'll score some kills, and even with its shit acc you can always oneshot a horse with it.

The problem is partially that throwing is too damn effective in itself*, and partially that ranged (bar crossbows) is fairly cheap to upkeep, so taking throwing somethings doesn't really bust your budget. 3 packs of heavy throwing axes are 15K. That isn't really a lot to maintain, and gives you a hell of a lot of punching power. Hell, 3 packs of javelins are even more economical and quite deadly as well.

*and you can spam projectiles like there's no tommorow.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Tai Feng on January 26, 2011, 02:07:08 am
Gold increase.

If upkeep wasn't as cheap as it is now (overall), then not everyone would take throwing, or good throwing weapons, consistently.
The problem right now is that many can be in their equipment of choice the entire time, and not be concerned with upkeep.


There's nothing wrong IMO with stack size. People who invest in throw should have fun throwing. Also, damage is okayish, and usually only a problem with those who focus on throwing (unfortunately too many now). A slight reduction would do, but perhaps very slight. Throwing should not be only good with those who have 12 in PT.


So overall, I think best solution would be to simply increase the cost.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: UrLukur on January 26, 2011, 02:20:15 am
Gold increase.

If upkeep wasn't as cheap as it is now (overall), then not everyone would take throwing, or good throwing weapons, consistently.
The problem right now is that many can be in their equipment of choice the entire time, and not be concerned with upkeep.


There's nothing wrong IMO with stack size. People who invest in throw should have fun throwing. Also, damage is okayish, and usually only a problem with those who focus on throwing (unfortunately too many now). A slight reduction would do, but perhaps very slight. Throwing should not be only good with those who have 12 in PT.


So overall, I think best solution would be to simply increase the cost.

Stack sizes are too much, decreasing them would help fighting with spam throwing, and would make throwing weapons lighter and better as support. But well, adding simple animation for getting them from the back or belt would balance them considerably.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Camaris on January 26, 2011, 02:39:22 am
Solution for spear-like Throwing-Weapons:

Reduce damage a lot but if someone is running forward while throwing them increase damage ;)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Vexus on January 26, 2011, 03:11:37 am
I've seen a decrease in throwers lately actually since high tier are too costly and to use low tiers effectively you need to be slow.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Thomek on January 26, 2011, 03:49:44 am
It just brings us back the problems which led to the wpf cap being there, without making it somehow more or less economical to build a hybrid. As long as throwing rapes as it does now, people will grab it. It doesn't even matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, because one shot will kill lightly armoured/no IF people and two kill most if not all players. Spam it at a crowd and you'll score some kills, and even with its shit acc you can always oneshot a horse with it.

The problem is partially that throwing is too damn effective in itself*, and partially that ranged (bar crossbows) is fairly cheap to upkeep, so taking throwing somethings doesn't really bust your budget. 3 packs of heavy throwing axes are 15K. That isn't really a lot to maintain, and gives you a hell of a lot of punching power. Hell, 3 packs of javelins are even more economical and quite deadly as well.

*and you can spam projectiles like there's no tommorow.

I'm not talking about removing the wpf penalty, but reduce the penalty only slightly. Then we would be back to more purists builds, and less hybrids.
(Going over 150 wpf in any prof is extremely costly atm)

Also, all accuracy in throwing should come from WPF:

* There would be no more 10PT with 0wpf builds that are also Accurate. (they are out there, and very effective.)
* Accurate throwers would perhaps have 6-7PT and 170 WPF

Atm Throwing doesn't have the AGI vs STR dilemma that most other classes have.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 06:20:42 am
Nope, penalty is fine, hybrids are fine.
Crossbow pays heavily to use it, noone takes it just for one or two cheap shots.
Archer ... well, you'd be way more effective just charging with the group if you only invest a few points.
Melee hybrids - nonexistant if you could stack wpf.
Only offender is throwing.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Gnjus on January 26, 2011, 09:20:59 am
Again - im not a primary thrower, 1h wpf is at 125 and throwing is 115. With fat plate it decreases to about 60. I wear 2 stacks of heavy throwing axes and i rarely 1shot anyone (well horses about 40%, those without armor ofc, but people around 25% mostly peasants and not even headshots get the job done). I do however, agree that there is a huge difference between axes and lances/jarids/darts, those piercing things hurt like hell no matter the armor and they mostly 1 shot people (i mean isnt it a bit ridiculous that a war dart 1shots a 40+ body armor while an axe in the head doesnt insta-kill ?)
The fact i often stay among the last alive in my team is not because im a thrower but rather because i am AWARE of the situation and i dont play like a blind moron, just going straightforward (without looking around) and expecting that others will do the job for me. Also, note that it was the same when i was an xbow hybrid, its about using your god damn brains, not using an OP build.  :wink:
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: EponiCo on January 26, 2011, 09:47:11 am
Err ... we can't all stand in the backrow...
Axes are very bad for shield users, a wardart I'd try to catch so it hits noone else, but 2 or 3 axes and I'm thrower bait myself.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ginosaji on January 26, 2011, 10:16:18 am
Again - im not a primary thrower, 1h wpf is at 125 and throwing is 115. With fat plate it decreases to about 60. I wear 2 stacks of heavy throwing axes and i rarely 1shot anyone (well horses about 40%, those without armor ofc, but people around 25% mostly peasants and not even headshots get the job done).

I can confirm that. My build has about the same 1h/throwing stats as yours (except that my build has higher PT and no shield and far less skill :P) and I rarely 1shot anything with armor. I mostly kill horses because they're running towards me and I can headshot them.

About the shield-breaking: I can't break a strong shield with less then 5 or 6 axes. That's more than enough time for the shielder to come in melee range or to get cover.
Light shields brake from 1 or 2 axes and that's OK IMHO, those shields break fast in melee too. People can also dodge throwing axes very easily because they're slow.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 10:21:54 am
I have 7 PT and 104 wpf and I can generally oneshot a cloth/leather armoured person quite often (and mailed horsemen riding at me, due to speed bonus). People in mail take two shots or a headshot. Horses are often oneshotted if I hit them in their front side while moving.  With one more PT (or heirloomed heavy throwing axes) I'm guessing the list of people who die to one throw would be much expanded.

Best thing is the part where you can spam them while moving - to keep people on their toes, and to score a easy kill or two before melee.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: gazda on January 26, 2011, 10:30:49 am
I would remove damage bonus from power throw and make wpp add more accuracy.

EDIT:

with my pt 11 it takes me 3 shots to kill a medium armor with my throwing daggers, which is i'd say unfair,
on the other hand throwing lances which takes 1 shot are extremly inaccurate.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2011, 10:35:22 am
I agree with Thomek here, the biggest problem is 1h+ throwing hybrids with shields who constantly backpedal. Something should be done with throwing, everyone and his mom/dad/goldfish has throwing nowadays and it is not even close to the word " balanced " . I've started this topic some time ago, but now things are getting even worse and so far there is no end to it.

I see three solutions :

- drastic decrease of the "reload speed" of throwing weapons .  Backpedalling won't be as annoying and deadly.    *My personal favorite*

- significant decrease in the amount of profectiles per stack

- moderate damage reduction. Although i believe this won't solve the problem now anyway, throwing is still too good to not have it
Some decent suggestions people have here, what do you think about my first one ? Hate to quote myself =).

P.S. changed topic's name a little bit to make it reffer more to the real conversation going on here.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 10:37:32 am
Some decent suggestions people have here, what do you think about my first one ? Hate to quote myself =).

I think it's a great solution, but it would require that someone makes the reloading animations.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2011, 10:43:11 am
I think it's a great solution, but it would require that someone makes the reloading animations.
I was talking about the delay between throws, at the moment it's very, very short, with some throwing weapons (like daggers) you can even stunlock people. . From what i understand, the "spd rtng"  stat on throwing weapons is responsible for this. I'm not sure if it can be changed manually though.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Brutal on January 26, 2011, 11:30:45 am
We must not have been hit by the same throwing weapon.
I've got 1 jarrid in the arm, a javelin and a heavy axe in the body, i'm still alive...
I've got 67hp that's the same as a dedicated inf with 18 str and 6 IF

The only time i one hit with javelins is either a damaged opponent or a low level wearing no armor

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Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on January 26, 2011, 11:34:52 am
Well duh, it depends on who the thrower is.

What would make throwing bearable? Nerf the "olol i'mma backpedal and throw shit at you forever" ... this is especially fucking annoying in slopes, other uneven terrain and water.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2011, 12:14:04 pm
I used gothic plate for 1 day and once got killed by 1 (one) throwing axe in the chest. Usually it took 2-3.

In my medium armor (46 ba) i easily get onehit by jarids, two hit by throwing axes  and all sorts of other crap flying around. If a throwing weapon is less powerfull (shurikens, daggers) , than it's fast as fuck and can stunlock you anyway. And don't even make me count how many times my horse (heavy sarranid) has been 1hit by throwing weapons of all sorts.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Brutal on January 26, 2011, 01:07:05 pm
And don't even make me count how many times my horse (heavy sarranid) has been 1hit by throwing weapons of all sorts.
that's because you run straight at the thrower, if you take a jarrid from the side the horse need more than one to go down.
You don't run straight into pike do you ?  :wink:
If you gamble sometime you loose.

Quote
Well duh, it depends on who the thrower is.
So somebody that sacrificed speed should not get a trade off ?
When i face a two hander with this alt i can't even strike back because i get massively oupsammed but still a lot of two hander instead of running toward me for a easy kill turn they back on me.
hitting somebody that is zigzagging is all about luck or reading into the future, at the speed the projectile are going,  it is very hard.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 26, 2011, 01:19:07 pm
that's because you run straight at the thrower, if you take a jarrid from the side the horse need more than one to go down.
You don't run straight into pike do you ?  :wink:
If you gamble sometime you loose.
So somebody that sacrificed speed should not get a trade off ?
When i face a two hander with this alt i can't even strike back because i get massively oupsammed but still a lot of two hander instead of running toward me for a easy kill turn they back on me.
hitting somebody that is zigzagging is all about luck or reading into the future, at the speed the projectile are going,  it is very hard.
Excuse me , but with so much shit flying around you can never predict when or where you will get hit. Of course i don't run straight into throwers , but that doesn't help since almost everyone has throwing weapons.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on January 26, 2011, 01:23:13 pm
When i face a two hander with this alt i can't even strike back because i get massively oupsammed but still a lot of two hander instead of running toward me for a easy kill turn they back on me.

Because you're using a slow crush through weapon. Try using a normal twohander instead of a slow crushing weapon if you don't want to be outspammed.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on January 26, 2011, 10:28:06 pm
I used gothic plate for 1 day and once got killed by 1 (one) throwing axe in the chest. Usually it took 2-3.

In my medium armor (46 ba) i easily get onehit by jarids, two hit by throwing axes  and all sorts of other crap flying around. If a throwing weapon is less powerfull (shurikens, daggers) , than it's fast as fuck and can stunlock you anyway. And don't even make me count how many times my horse (heavy sarranid) has been 1hit by throwing weapons of all sorts.

Hardly, must be 10+ PT, not sure if even that should do it when you are in gothic. Maybe you got  hit in the head but it looked like you got hit in the chest, the axe model is fcked up. Also i see people with axes sticking out of their heads all the time.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 27, 2011, 01:00:56 am
I still don't get throwing accuracy I mean I have an alt with 7 PT throwing knives have a great accuracy while darts (Not war darts) aim is like an archer's aim.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Punisher on January 27, 2011, 12:01:18 pm
There are 2 ways to fix throwing in my opinion:
1) Make PT decrease accuracy, so throwers actually need WPF if they want to hit anything, no more 10+ PT who 1shot everything with 1 WPF (pretty much like archery).
2) Give throwers a new animation to decrease their crazy rate of fire, so they don't pull axes out of their ass with machinegun speed anymore.

And add an accuracy penalty for throwing with shield.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 27, 2011, 02:03:28 pm
There are 2 ways to fix throwing in my opinion:
1) Make PT decrease accuracy, so throwers actually need WPF if they want to hit anything, no more 10+ PT who 1shot everything with 1 WPF (pretty much like archery).

*Only if the base accuracy of throwing weapons is vastly increased. Not sure if you've ever used them, but the reticule on heavy throwing axes and up with just the required PT to use them is just HUGE. Making PT decrease accuracy even more, the reticule wouldn't even fit my screen.*

2) Give throwers a new animation to decrease their crazy rate of fire, so they don't pull axes out of their ass with machinegun speed anymore.

*Euhm.. how? If I start throwing heavy battle axes at an incomming 2h as soon as he gets in range (the range at which I can actually try to aim at him instead of randomly tossing them), I can throw 2-3 axes MAX before the 2h closes the distance and insta kills me. Since he's most likely aware I'm throwing stuff at him, he can dodge, making my chances to hit him very slim. If he has the cheapest board shield, he can catch 2 axes without taking any damage at all.*

And add an accuracy penalty for throwing with shield.
*agreed*

Nice suggestions. We could just remove all throwing weapons but rocks/knives and stuff and be done with it. Saves the devs a lot of work and it accomplishes the same.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 27, 2011, 02:27:46 pm
Nice suggestions. We could just remove all throwing weapons but rocks/knives and stuff and be done with it. Saves the devs a lot of work and it accomplishes the same.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: UrLukur on January 27, 2011, 02:29:55 pm
There are 2 ways to fix throwing in my opinion:
1) Make PT decrease accuracy, so throwers actually need WPF if they want to hit anything, no more 10+ PT who 1shot everything with 1 WPF (pretty much like archery).
2) Give throwers a new animation to decrease their crazy rate of fire, so they don't pull axes out of their ass with machinegun speed anymore.

And add an accuracy penalty for throwing with shield.

How shield hamper throwing using one hand :shock:

But yeah, new animation, that have long recovery time (you can't throw but you can shield yourself) would help balancing it out. Throwing need to be able to throw fast their first projectile, then slow down. It would solve the problem of machineguns.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 27, 2011, 03:16:37 pm
How shield hamper throwing using one hand :shock:

*Easy. Look at a pitcher as an example. When he throws full force, he moves his entire body, not just his throwing arm. It's a matter of biomechanics. Now, strap a big, heavy and clumsy shield to his other arm and he will be severely hampered in his throwing speed and accuracy.*

But yeah, new animation, that have long recovery time (you can't throw but you can shield yourself) would help balancing it out. Throwing need to be able to throw fast their first projectile, then slow down. It would solve the problem of machineguns.

*Only for hybrids using a shield maybe. Slowing down pure throwers even more completely kills the class and demotes throwing to a secondary skill.*

Pure throwing is fine as it is imo. High damage, low accuracy, randomness, throwing weapons not registering hits/disappearing when thrown. And not to mention VERY slow. The shotgun effect is all they have. When they miss, they usually die.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 27, 2011, 03:19:03 pm
People should try do a thrower before saying if it's OP or not seriously.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spurdospera on January 27, 2011, 03:28:07 pm
Yeah you should try throwing before whining.

As for the spamming, you really cant spam with throwing weapons. If you try to throw anything without waiting many seconds between shots your weapon will most likely get glued to your hand.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on January 27, 2011, 03:32:49 pm
Pure throwing is fine as it is imo. High damage, low accuracy, randomness, throwing weapons not registering hits/disappearing when thrown. And not to mention VERY slow. The shotgun effect is all they have. When they miss, they usually die.

It's fine at medium-long range. What makes it broken is that they can throw 60 damage lances at you from 1cm away while backpedalling.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 27, 2011, 03:44:57 pm
People should try do a thrower before saying if it's OP or not seriously.
Or maybe recieve 300 throwing weapons in the face during one day, while trying to dodge another 300 000.And while you're at it, you don't need to tell people to roll throwers , they are already on it without your kind advices . =)

Throwing is overpowered and if it get's changed , deal with it guys. Don't you remember those good old days when you used to kill enemies with melee weapons ?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: tankmen on January 27, 2011, 03:48:42 pm
Or maybe recieve 300 throwing weapons in the face during one day, while trying to dodge another 300 000.

Throwing is overpowered and if it get's changed , deal with it guys. Don't you remember those good old days when you used to kill enemies with melee weapons ?
this! i cant go one round with out some throwing weapon in my body, and if they are a pure str build well then im most likely dead....
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Keshian on January 27, 2011, 03:53:02 pm
I went thrower/polearm spammer - easiest class I've played yet.  Went 27 str and only 9 agi and it didnt hurt my accuracy at all.  Just did 9 powerstrike, 9 powerthrow and a bunch of IF.  Survived 3x as many hits as any of my agility classes, yet with 9 powerthrow and 100 wpf in throwing I could throw accurately across the map (just have to aim higher), my war darts would go farther then arrows froma  warbow or bolts from an xbow.  With 9 powerthrow and the 25 pierce damage of wardarts I could one hit kill half the time and 2 hit kill almost anyone, didnt even need to go to the 34 pierce of javelins except a few rounds which were almost always one hit kills (didnt even bother with the throwing lances 60 pierce damage, which with 9 powerthrow is 103 pierce damage which would have 1-hit killed even goretooth in heirloomed black armor, talk about ridiculous, by the way who ever came up with the lame idea that you could throw a lance?? in ancient cultures you had people throw spears (38 pierce), but never lances, its as lame as black armor, looney toons axe, and wizard's staffs).

None of this is even counting heirloomed throwing weapons which many throwers did, which increases damage and speed.

Wearing heraldic mail, great long axe, mail gauntlets, sipahi helmet, sarranid mail boots, and 3 sets of war darts (21 darts is more then enough ammo) I would consistently make 5000 gold an hour and by the end of that gen had accumulated roughly 150,000 gold.

People keep saying theya re inaccurate, but they reallya re not and they are 5-10 times the width of an arrow or xbow bolt, which makes it much harder to miss if you get within the general area of your target.  The draw speed is phenomenally fast and found it incredibly easy to take out archers as a thrower as you could throw twice in the time they shot once and you could throw while running and dodging.  Considering archersa re so weak now, most maps are close range fights, which is where the thrower really shines as most of you ammo hits somethigna t close range because of how wide the darts and javelins and especially the throwing axes (you can get hit by the handle of the axe and still full damage) are.

The most obvious evidence though is now suddenly after the patch half the people playing any given map are hybrid throwers.  There is actually more ranged in most fights then there was pre-patch and part of that is the effectiveness of throwing weapons.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 27, 2011, 03:53:07 pm
I'm a 2her and tried a throwing alt to test it myself and no it's not that OP my alt has 7 PT and apart of headshots I have never one shot anyone apart with throwing lances but they have terrible aim.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on January 27, 2011, 03:59:51 pm
The most obvious evidence though is now suddenly after the patch half the people playing any given map are hybrid throwers.  There is actually more ranged in most fights then there was pre-patch and part of that is the effectiveness of throwing weapons.

Which is annoying as hell. Melee mechanics is where M&B shines, and all the ranged spam is just ruining it. Hopefully it'll be better after the throwers are nerfed.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 27, 2011, 04:01:46 pm
(click to show/hide)

Funny. With 10 PT I don't 1 shot kill people with wardarts and I can't even kill a courser in 1 hit with a throwing lance without the speedbonus. I don't have longer range than bows and their accuracy still surpasses mine in mid-long ranges.

Anyway, to fix your issue Keshian, we could do the right thing and nerf HYBRIDS.
I agree hybrids are too powerfull. It's rather easy to trade IF for throwing and  you're good to go.
Anyone with a polearmbuild can just swap IF for PT and start carrying jarids. They could even use them in melee somewhat effective.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 27, 2011, 04:06:57 pm
They need to fix wpf of throwing then hybrid would be less effective.

Lowering their damage/speed is not a solution.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 27, 2011, 04:33:47 pm
Lower damage/speed is a solution, it would just destroy the pure thrower as a class other than a "fun build".
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on January 27, 2011, 05:27:16 pm
I call the last 2 posts in this topic "crocodile tears" :).
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Keshian on January 27, 2011, 05:29:04 pm
(click to show/hide)

Funny. With 10 PT I don't 1 shot kill people with wardarts and I can't even kill a courser in 1 hit with a throwing lance without the speedbonus. I don't have longer range than bows and their accuracy still surpasses mine in mid-long ranges.

Anyway, to fix your issue Keshian, we could do the right thing and nerf HYBRIDS.
I agree hybrids are too powerfull. It's rather easy to trade IF for throwing and  you're good to go.
Anyone with a polearmbuild can just swap IF for PT and start carrying jarids. They could even use them in melee somewhat effective.

Thats actually a good idea.  We could have all wpf from 1-200 all cost 5 wpf points to get so its not heavily weighted toward hybrids, no real reason for it to be more expensive at higher levels other then that single player did it that way.  Then even minimal effective wpf requires some commitment to agility.  This would also solve the problem of strength builds becoming the norm now and shift back toward balanced builds.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: UrLukur on January 27, 2011, 05:47:01 pm
It's good people go hybrid. It is bad that ranged is so common and powerful. It is problem that throwers get this much ammo, and shoot too fast.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Centurion on January 27, 2011, 06:02:12 pm
Alright as a thrower myself I do not find it over powered. The spears are easy to dodge. Darts just suck because they are historically a light weapon for light inf. Throwing spears jards and java do more pierce because here's the kicker. Power throw 6 plus gravity plus running forward plus fuckin heavy metal point equals fucking death. Not to hard to get. Also knives only work on unarmored and darts on med range light armored for effectiveness dedicate time for java and up. There should be no needs whatsoever. If a arrow can take half my health a freaking throwing spear should damn near kill. Everyone who complains is either a low level a light agility build high level or slow all strenght builds. Im a perfect balanced build and I take throwing lances to the chest and live half the time. When your slow your a target when your light and fast your a harder to hit but more devastating damage taker. Throwing weapons arnt meant to be perfect accuracy that's what bows and crossbows are for. Aim for groups of people with spears get lucky hits. Get point blank throw a couple for headshots pull out your secondary weapon and shock and awe those birches. That's how I fight. NO NERFS at all. People who long range snipe with throwing are idiots.

K im done with my rant.

For a shot at joining Lost Legion send me a message here or add me on steam at kolyskoa.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on January 28, 2011, 01:21:13 am
as a thrower myself I do not find it over powered.

What every thrower says  :D
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Gorath on January 28, 2011, 01:36:47 am
What every thrower says  :D

Indeed.
As a thrower I find that the damage on the higher tier throwing weapons could be brought down a bit (and lances shouldn't exist, they've always been retarded).  I'm a hybrid 2h/thrower (17/21 build, PS/PT @5, ath/wm @ 7, 140 2h, 100 throwing) and I use primarily war darts.  They're pretty innacurate
SS with darts, accuracy gets worse the higher weapons I use:
Standing still
(click to show/hide)
Moving
(click to show/hide)

The only time I can 1 hit people is a direct shot to the face, which is harder than people think and though I aim for the head luck plays a huge factor.  Even then it doesn't always 1-hit with my lawn darts (war darts).  On John_RS in his peasant tunic, straw hat and boots (forgot which ones) it took me 5 lawn darts to bring him from 100% - dead and this is about average.  People in armor it takes even more, so usually they have to be softened up by other players first.

For the most part I use them as my anti-archer defense.  Rather than grabbing a shield, I decided to invest in my lawn darts because I can force archers to either move and cancel their shot as I advance, or take the chance of getting hit.  With these lower end weapons I don't really see what's imbalanced about them.

However as you get to heavy throwing axes, jarids and lances (retarded) throwing really does get stupid in it's damage capability and goes from a support weapon like an xbow to a primary lolkill weapon.

Hybrids really aren't the issue, the issue is with higher end throwing and it's silly nature.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: DKriza on January 28, 2011, 02:06:25 am
Aim for groups of people with spears get lucky hits.
 

That is the main problem with throwing, when two sides meet and real fight starts, its just comes down to luck for melee in  main fight to survive first throwers. This forces people to use shields, and automatically unbalances  the game.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 28, 2011, 02:28:00 am
As Gorath said, the high-end throwing weapons are the issue: they're over powered and absolutly ridiculous. I mean c'mon... throwing LANCES? We all know how much damage those things do, and how ridiculous it is to see somebody with throwing lances beat a 2h/polearm person in close quarters fighting. The lancer simply backpeddles and throws while the 2hander dies, because he can't close with the lance-chucker without going relatively straight and in so doing becomes an easy target.

My bitching, however, is from the perspective of a cavalry player. Yes I know, "Cavalry people should be sneaky and if you're hit by a throwing weapon and die it's your fault." and I call bull shit. My courser is so easily killed by throwers it's simply ridiculous. I have almost no chance of closing with a thrower, because said thrower is relatively alert. Said thrower can easily kill my horse in one or two hits (if he's using high-tier throwing weapons).

Unless people expect horses to have built-in invisibility projectors, cavalry have little option when confronting a half a team of hybrid throwers but to die or hide until the throwers are dead or have lost their ammo.

And so, think of the horsies when considering the OP nature of high-tier throwing weapons. As Gorath said, throwing weapons should fulfill a support role (like xbows). They should certainly not be capable of inflicting as much damage as if they were almighty Zuess's thunderbolts smiting my horse upon it's rump.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tetris on January 28, 2011, 02:35:05 am
I am so sick to death of these godforsaken rage-posts for throwing I am going to retire and become a "Mcdonalds cheeseburger" 2hand.  :(

Lances are op and stupid btw, but I never freaking hit anything with them (10pt 123 wpf)
Best just to go with war darts, ever if they suck for dmg you get alot of em, same goes with stones which I found out were freaking epic with or without heirloom.  :)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Dach on January 28, 2011, 05:37:25 am
The only complain I got is the throwing lance.

Just reduce their stack to 1 instead of 2, I'll deal with that.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Kalam on January 28, 2011, 06:13:14 am
For the most part, the throwing situation has improved from the throwtastic throwfests every other server seemed to be a week or two ago. I'm not sure what it is, but there seems be a resurgence of archers and a dwindling of throwers. I'm not saying that it's perfect, just that it's better than it was. A simple fix to the issue of so many throwers using it primarily as a point-blank weapon is increasing the price and upkeep of higher tier throwing weapons.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 28, 2011, 11:17:40 am
And I don't agree with you on rising price again.

Throwers have to pay PER equipped ingame heavy throwing axes to name a popular one cost around 250 gold to upkeep, on my throwing alt I mostly use war darts which most of the time get upkeeped 2 times every 2 rounds.

If only wpf was fixed for throwing they could reduce terribly the accuracy from the throwings so someone MUST spend wpf in throwing if he wants the PT 10 accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on January 28, 2011, 11:27:00 am
15K for three stacks of throwing axes means I can use normal melee gear, solid mail, etc and 3 sets of throwing axes without problems. Sure, without throwing junk on me I could afford to use eg. transitional, but given I still die in 2-3 hits of throwing junk, better to have something to throw back. Plus it demolishes horses, shields, can be thrown at runners, etc.


Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Belmont on January 28, 2011, 12:37:28 pm
In my opinion, the best way to fix throwing while keeping the same damage is to reduce drastically the speed rating on the throwing weapons, making the "reload" animation longer. Another fix could be to force throwers to move forward while they ready their weapons, eliminating backpedaling throwers.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: WSC_Sorokopud on January 28, 2011, 12:39:15 pm
higher reload speed and only movingforward throwing would be unrealistic. I think bonuses from Power throw, Powers Strike and Power Draw should be decreased to 5% per skill point. And increasing WPF should be very hard after 100.

BTW pure throwers never take top positions in player list.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: UrLukur on January 28, 2011, 01:04:04 pm
higher reload speed and only movingforward throwing would be unrealistic. I think bonuses from Power throw, Powers Strike and Power Draw should be decreased to 5% per skill point. And increasing WPF should be very hard after 100.

BTW pure throwers never take top positions in player list.

Hardcoded, impossible. WPF increase is quite hard after 100. Level cap 25 would make it harder.

They do. I've seen at lest two, one of them was templar guy with 13 PT.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 28, 2011, 01:48:54 pm
As Gorath said, the high-end throwing weapons are the issue: they're over powered and absolutly ridiculous. I mean c'mon... throwing LANCES? We all know how much damage those things do, and how ridiculous it is to see somebody with throwing lances beat a 2h/polearm person in close quarters fighting. The lancer simply backpeddles and throws while the 2hander dies, because he can't close with the lance-chucker without going relatively straight and in so doing becomes an easy target.

My bitching, however, is from the perspective of a cavalry player. Yes I know, "Cavalry people should be sneaky and if you're hit by a throwing weapon and die it's your fault." and I call bull shit. My courser is so easily killed by throwers it's simply ridiculous. I have almost no chance of closing with a thrower, because said thrower is relatively alert. Said thrower can easily kill my horse in one or two hits (if he's using high-tier throwing weapons).

Unless people expect horses to have built-in invisibility projectors, cavalry have little option when confronting a half a team of hybrid throwers but to die or hide until the throwers are dead or have lost their ammo.

And so, think of the horsies when considering the OP nature of high-tier throwing weapons. As Gorath said, throwing weapons should fulfill a support role (like xbows). They should certainly not be capable of inflicting as much damage as if they were almighty Zuess's thunderbolts smiting my horse upon it's rump.

I agree about the lances. They're just dumb. BUT, if you're closing in on a lance thrower while zigzagging/moving in weird patterns, getting hit is more of a luck thing on the throwers side. I've been doing it with other templars and the only one I could kill most of the time were the low athletics guys.
Anyone with 5 or higher athletics is really hard to hit and when they're close enough for melee, I die.

About the horsies: We're supposed to kill horsies. Be glad I can't use my 1-2 combo anymore due to the upkeep. (1 - throw a lance at the last second at an incomming horsie and it dies, 2 - toss lance at downed cav who's right next to you on the floor). Now I have to do it with heavy throwing axes, but most of the time the horsie or the cav guy don't  die when hit and it either means I get lanced from horseback or killed in melee by the downed cav guy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 28, 2011, 01:52:23 pm
They do. I've seen at lest two, one of them was templar guy with 13 PT.

Dastikka is currently on his 6th or 7th gen thrower and has played a thrower since the launch on M&B.
His throwing weapons of choice: Regular darts, snowflakes and rocks.
It's no surprise he can play his class well.

On top of that, it's only occasional when he tops the scoreboard.
Just like I occasionally top the score board on my thrower, he just does it more frequently.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Magikarp on January 28, 2011, 01:59:05 pm
My only grudge is that throwing in full str does too much damage, heck, it does even more damage than a full str melee character.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Leiknir on January 28, 2011, 05:05:46 pm
My only grudge is that throwing in full str does too much damage, heck, it does even more damage than a full str melee character.

Change PT to 3str/3agi requierment. If you want more than 6pt, you have to convert lots of statspoint, fucking you over at other places. This way you can get 6pt max, and we are back to what throwing really is. A skirmisher. Not full str artillery.
No other changes needed, as throwing is not really imba, it is just overused as people have free slots and just fill them up. Or just switch back to v200 upkeep/income, this would solve all problems
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Warcat on January 28, 2011, 05:50:30 pm
I don't know about the other weapons, I don't use them. But don't drastically change stones or lances, they're balanced as they are now.
Lances-
1. They're slow to reload(and easy to dodge if you've got athletics)
2. They're very inaccurate. (Have to get nearly in flamberge range to effectively aim. Outside of that is luck.)
3. You only get 2 per stack (which means their overall killing potential is far less than any melee weapon)
4. They cost 547 for each repair. That means wearing almost nothing else that has upkeep(heirloomed robe is 0g. Leather cap is 2g) I still rarely make any money, and generally lose a little with only 2 sets equipped.
5. Good plate armor with some ironflesh still survives them

Stones-
They're a little bit underpowered, headshots should have a chance to knock people over, but a part from that, they're perfect.

I think the main throwing change needed is higher requirements for axes and other weapons so that less melee player carry them in their extra slots.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on January 28, 2011, 11:54:53 pm
OK after further tests I'd say that:

* There's a need for very slight reduction in damage (I don't like balancing which makes overused things useless). I can't give feedback on the cost.
* Remove from the game silly weapons such as Throwing Lances.


Other than that, I'd say throwing weapons are more or less fine.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on January 29, 2011, 12:01:03 am
Allow them to be thrown only when standing still. >=D
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: DrKronic on January 29, 2011, 12:25:47 am
The best thing that could happen is make wpf for throwing similar to how's bows work

So 1 wpf equals huge accuracy and damage penalty

150 wpf equals what we get now

Done you'd see alot less "0 wpf hybrids" which now basically everyone is

Oh and george Washington is a pure thrower and he can definitely get top kills

Just make wpf actually govern the reticule heavily=fixed
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Rendar1970 on January 29, 2011, 05:40:34 am
Its a pretty well known trend in gaming that whatever is the most powerfull is the most used.

A few patches ago, on a server with 40 people, you might have seen 3-4 throwers. 

Currently on a 40 man server, there will be 20 dedicated throwers, and another 10-15 melee toons who are throwing as well.

Why the change? You have to think about that.

Right now this game feels like im playing a mix between Counterstrike in chainmail, and the arrow barrage scene from 300.  I can barely tell when im playing on maps with rain, cause theres so much crap in the air it all looks the same.

Solution? I dont have one, for me I just dont play when the server gets more than 25 people, cause theres no point.  As soon as your in range your being hit with 10 random throwing items and can do nothing but turtle.

And with horses already dying so easy to everything else, you cant even ride near the enemy for more than 2 seconds without losing your mount.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 29, 2011, 06:54:23 am
Give Throwers less ammo
nerf nothing else
-1 to all things past axes or daggars
That way if there's 100 throwers on the server you effectively eliminate 100 higher tier throwing weapons.
just an idea, I just made a thrower today & it's lots of fun being able to throw stuff before charging, I barely ever hit & when I do it usually just wounds them & then shortly after I die.
I'm not pure thrower.
just an idea
-1 ammo wont effect one thrower but the server will have a lot less higher tier throwing weapons to deal with.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on January 29, 2011, 03:10:08 pm
Currently on a 40 man server, there will be 20 dedicated throwers, and another 10-15 melee toons who are throwing as well.

Exaggerating a bit are we? :)

Quote
As soon as your in range your being hit with 10 random throwing items and can do nothing but turtle.

If you expect to stand in the middle of the front line in the beginning of the battle without a shield then - yes, you'll die. That's the point. Throwing is a weapon like any other. While it does need a very slight damage reduction, most people die to throwing because they don't play properly.

I play without a shield right now and die to throwing no more often than to other weapons. I have no problem playing without a shield because I use tactics and don't charger like a madman. If throwing bothers you that much you should watch good 2H duelists and see how it is that they manage to have so many kills.


Most people who have problem with throwing have it because they think that just because they are good at dueling they should kill everyone, and non duel weapons are dishonorable. Well, we have bows, xbows and throwing. And cavalry backstabbing. And it's all part of the game.

Quote
Why the change? You have to think about that.

You're forgetting one were important thing: wpf change. Hybrids are now much better than they were. Many who before were not hybrids now are. This is a good thing and makes the game more fun for many, since they can play in various ways and not just always the same thing.

So now that hybrids are better, what do you think infantry will do?

a) Invest in another melee weapon? I've seen Urist promote this, but I still don't see much point in it right now.
b) Invest in xbow? Rarely a decent option, considering how even dedicated xbowmen are on average bad and can barely get any kills.
c) Invest in bow? You're not going to spam arrows if you're primarily infantry.
d) Throwing. Which can be done on the move, which can fill the remaining slots fully, be it 1 or 2 or three of free slots.


The fact is that throwing is natural addition of infantry arsenal. There's nothing wrong with infantrymen using throwing (as long as it's balanced of course).
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Murchad on January 29, 2011, 04:48:48 pm
I think they need to take a hit like every other class.
I would personally like throwing to be not viable as a primary class but very useful as a secondary skill
some ways you could do it are

1. make damage lower (i vote no but remove throwing lances from game)
2. make stack size smaller (yes see below)
3. reduce accuracy ( no )
4. increase cost ( no, i vote decrease )
5. make wp in throwing more crucial. eg. throwing skill is dmg and wp is accuracy ( I say no because throwing should be able to be used as secondary skill)

my personal preferance would be to make the stack size much smaller and make the throwing weapons more accurate but with more dropoff so they aren't as useful at long range ( i mean comeon these guys are throwing the spears 5x as far as olympic athletes.)  i think one hitting people should be possible for people who want to sink alot of points into PT but the decreased stack size will decrease the ranged spam.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on January 29, 2011, 05:08:11 pm
I just find the amount of damage high-tier throwing weapons do over the top, as well as the "reload speed". The "throw on the move" part is sensible (well, except backpedalling, but whatever), and are a major appeal of throwing weapons to people who want to engage in melee (so you can use them to defend vs horses/etc, to throw something after runners/other ranged/etc as you close the distance).

However, these days I'm more afraid of someone with heavy throwing axes / spears / jarids (let's not even mention the instakill lance) then a melee char, a crossbowman, or just about any other thing - a melee char I can (try to) block, a crossbowman while doing equal damage to someone with jarids (with 7-8 PT) has one shot and if he misses he's got to fight in melee, a archer, while he can spam more arrows, they do less damage then throwing weapons and he can't fire on the move (so he has to either engage in melee or run away), and of course, a horseman you can block/stab as well. On the other hand, a thrower (or hybrid thrower) will kill me in two shots, often even if I'm carrying plate, and the reload speed means he can throw quite a number of projectiles at me before he has to, eg. engage in melee.

Which is probably the reason why people are bothered with throwers, which gets especially annoying when they're in numbers when even shields stop being credible protection (everything under a huscarl / heavy board gets broken really easily, and with the coverage nerf they're fairly vulnerable at the sides/etc unless it's a huscarl of course).

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vance on January 29, 2011, 05:09:56 pm
Reduced ammo would fix much. Accuracy I can't comment on having never used a thrower.

Realism-wise I think throwing axes are for throwing over shields, not at them. Very close range artillery basically, not good at shield breaking.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on January 29, 2011, 05:42:29 pm
Quote from: bruce
Which is probably the reason why people are bothered with throwers

Actually, they're bothered with it because they consider it should be inferior weapon in every way to everything. When cavalry stabs 5 people it's OK, but when thrower kills 1 person it's mass outrage.


Observe EU server we play on and please tell me, how many top people score kills with throwing and how many with other weapons? Whenever I look at people who have most kills it's never someone with throwing. That of course does not mean something is perfectly balanced, but it does make you wonder.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Rendar1970 on January 29, 2011, 05:50:22 pm
Exaggerating a bit are we? :)

Come play on NA server, Im not making any exaggeration when I tell you that nearly all players who are not an archer/xbow have atleast 1 stack of throwing.


You're forgetting one were important thing: wpf change. Hybrids are now much better than they were.

Yeah this is pretty BS.  How exactly does the WPF change have anything to do with this?  You dont need to invest a single wpf in throwing to be good at it.  On the NA server alot of the top throwers have 0 WPF in throwing, just alot of STR.




Also, as per your last post.  Your dead wrong again.  People are not bothered by throwing because it should be a viable playstyle.  People are bothered by throwing because a toon 100% dedicated to any other role, can simple just add throwing on top, and be twice as deadly.

Throwing should be like everything else, dedicated throwers excel and remain as they are now, people with other builds who just dabble should be mediocre as best.

A Cav build that gets PD 1 cant just turn into a mega archer.  So why should a pull Polearm spec suddenly be able to throw as well as the full dedicated thrower?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: justme on January 29, 2011, 05:50:36 pm
top are filling ppl that are most skilled, regardless to their class
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Jinxits on January 29, 2011, 06:07:58 pm
Im not going through all 10 pages but this is my two cents.

Throwing for one is only thrown while crossbows and Bows have added force behind them. You cant tell me that someone can throw a couple lb spear a hell of a lot faster and harder then a 1/4 lb bolt/arrow. One there is more force because of the force the bow and crossbow put and add to the projectile. Yes I argue the speed and damage as well as others. Nerf it abit Im not saying make arrows and bolts better I know it wont happen to many people complain. And arrows and bolts are quite where they should be anyways. How ever one shot kill with a throwing axe or spear to the arm leg and so on like I have seen is a bit absurd. I havent really tried throwing to much to really be a judge on it or not but what i have seen is that throwing is OP'ed you can see it if you watch some throwers get 6 kills in a row with just thrown weapons without having to hit any of those people 2 times. And they arent just peasant kills. So yea. NERF throwing.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on January 29, 2011, 06:12:47 pm
Come play on NA server, Im not making any exaggeration when I tell you that nearly all players who are not an archer/xbow have atleast 1 stack of throwing.r?

Yes, infantry that has free slots should have throwing in cRPG, just as archer or xbow who has free slots should have melee weapon.
That doesn't mean there's something wrong with throwing. I see plenty of melee here on EU who have no throwing, yet.

The rest of your post is, I'm sorry, exaggerating.

Quote from: justme
top are filling ppl that are most skilled, regardless to their class

Then find me skilled persona with crossbow consistently being on top the way skilled cavalry, 1H and skilled 2H do so.

I agree that skilled people will still do good with bad equipment/class, but scoreboard is still a pretty accurate indication of usefulness of the class.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: tankmen on January 30, 2011, 12:51:15 am
really? cause the NA servers are full of throwing weapons each one taking chunks of health or killing people, a level 30 thrower pure str and 11-12 PT can two shot me in lordly plate, hows that fair? he breaks my shield before i can get within a few feet then spams the rest of his axes before i can get close... they need slower throw time and or damage, because sure he may miss but if its a battle he will kill me then proceed to pick his axes up and of only lost 2-4 axes that are stuck in me and my shield... i hear people defend throwing by saying it has low ammo? really? u can kill in 2-3 yet archers takes 8-12 or cant even hurt them,so archer maybe has 3-4 kills of arrows while throwers have 10+? cause archers cant 1 shot peasants a thrower can. if a high level archer picks up a hunting bow it wont do shit, if a thrower picks up a rock it can kill plate... or a knife or any low level throwing item, hows that balanced?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 30, 2011, 03:44:37 am
I think that throwing weapons should act as a natural supplement to an infantryman's arsenal. They should serve as a way for players to defend against other ranged units and charging cavalry, as well as to soften up enemy infantry forces prior to engaging them in melee combat. However many thrown weapons are currently innacurate, and simply exist as a form of projectile spam which, when it lands, causes rage-inducing one/two hit kills.

I think a good solution to this problem is to slightly decrease the damage dealt by throwing weapons, in particular the high-tier (jarid, lance, heavy ax) weapons. I also think that there should be more time inbetween shots, ie: slower chamber speed. I also think that the accuracy of an immobile thrower should be significantly increased.

Optimally, I would like to see any infantryman who is not a dedicated thrower enter battle with two or three throwing javelins/lances/axes/whatever at most. This would force said non-dedicated thrower to conservatively use their ammunition instead of spamming them as they do now. It will actually be possible for them to conservatively and intelligently use their thrown weapons because they will have increased accuracy. Spam would be reduced. There would be a smaller number of SHIT flying through the air hitting random people. Cavalry would be able to participate in the battle more, instead of hiding, because infantry will have to make a conscious decision as to whether they wish to save their thrown weapons, or potentially waste them on cavalry.

In other words, I propose we make thrown weapons something that almost any infantry dude can effectively use, but which requires some critical thinking. Do I throw one of three of my axes at that archer who's not looking at me right now? Or should I save it for a situation when I might REALLY need it, like when a horse is charging at my face? Should I throw both of my javelines now, at the begning of the fight, or should I save them for the end of the round when we're chasing down that one, naked delaying guy/bitch? Can I even hit that HA with my throwing-lance-of-doom, or should I wait until he gets closer?

And by increasing accuracy, throwers will actually be able to make these decisions with good heart, because they'll be sure they can actually hit what they're throwing at.

For those dedicated throwers, I think thrown weapons should be a bit cheaper. If they would only be getting 2-3 shots per slot, then they shouldn't have to pay as much as they do now. Nobody shouldn't be able to play the way they want, if that way is fair to other players.

tl;dr: More accuracy, so throwers can actually aim. Less ammo and more time between throws, so throwers won't spam. Less damage, so throwers won't cause rage with so many 1 shot kills. Appropriatly cheaper thrown weapons, so dedicated throwers won't be paying for 4 darts when they'll only have two per slot. Or three per slot. Someone else come up with the number, I don't throw much.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on January 30, 2011, 05:29:05 pm
(click to show/hide)

I like the idea. It would add more tactical trows and less chaos
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on January 30, 2011, 05:41:52 pm
he breaks my shield before i can get within a few feet

:)


Try tactics.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ganon on January 30, 2011, 07:48:10 pm
A random thrower can take 40-60% of my str based lvl30 char in milanese plate (with proper helm, boots and gauntlets), while a pure thrower with a str build can just oneshot me. That is not balanced, no room for discussion.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on January 30, 2011, 08:00:10 pm
Not true either, so again no room for discussion i guess  :(
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ganon on January 30, 2011, 08:24:18 pm
Not true either, so again no room for discussion i guess  :(

It just happened a few minutes ago in crpg. You must be talking of native or some other mod!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Jorium on January 30, 2011, 08:36:57 pm
I think that throwing weapons should act as a natural supplement to an infantryman's arsenal. They should serve as a way for players to defend against other ranged units and charging cavalry, as well as to soften up enemy infantry forces prior to engaging them in melee combat. However many thrown weapons are currently innacurate, and simply exist as a form of projectile spam which, when it lands, causes rage-inducing one/two hit kills.

I think a good solution to this problem is to slightly decrease the damage dealt by throwing weapons, in particular the high-tier (jarid, lance, heavy ax) weapons. I also think that there should be more time inbetween shots, ie: slower chamber speed. I also think that the accuracy of an immobile thrower should be significantly increased.

Optimally, I would like to see any infantryman who is not a dedicated thrower enter battle with two or three throwing javelins/lances/axes/whatever at most. This would force said non-dedicated thrower to conservatively use their ammunition instead of spamming them as they do now. It will actually be possible for them to conservatively and intelligently use their thrown weapons because they will have increased accuracy. Spam would be reduced. There would be a smaller number of SHIT flying through the air hitting random people. Cavalry would be able to participate in the battle more, instead of hiding, because infantry will have to make a conscious decision as to whether they wish to save their thrown weapons, or potentially waste them on cavalry.

In other words, I propose we make thrown weapons something that almost any infantry dude can effectively use, but which requires some critical thinking. Do I throw one of three of my axes at that archer who's not looking at me right now? Or should I save it for a situation when I might REALLY need it, like when a horse is charging at my face? Should I throw both of my javelines now, at the begning of the fight, or should I save them for the end of the round when we're chasing down that one, naked delaying guy/bitch? Can I even hit that HA with my throwing-lance-of-doom, or should I wait until he gets closer?

And by increasing accuracy, throwers will actually be able to make these decisions with good heart, because they'll be sure they can actually hit what they're throwing at.

For those dedicated throwers, I think thrown weapons should be a bit cheaper. If they would only be getting 2-3 shots per slot, then they shouldn't have to pay as much as they do now. Nobody shouldn't be able to play the way they want, if that way is fair to other players.

tl;dr: More accuracy, so throwers can actually aim. Less ammo and more time between throws, so throwers won't spam. Less damage, so throwers won't cause rage with so many 1 shot kills. Appropriatly cheaper thrown weapons, so dedicated throwers won't be paying for 4 darts when they'll only have two per slot. Or three per slot. Someone else come up with the number, I don't throw much.

+1  great suggestion
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: LordRichrich on January 30, 2011, 08:54:21 pm
Throwers 1 shot when they get to higher levels of PT
My throwing char with 9pt and 9ps 1 shots people with the thrown AND melee weapon
So I've gone pure str, and I'm told
"You can't one shot ppl wth your throwing weapons anymore"
Me: "Aw, they were fun"
"Don't worry, you can still one shot ppl in melee!"

It seems a pointless whine
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Vexus on January 30, 2011, 08:57:55 pm
That's because in melee they can attempt to fight but when your throwing they can't do much apart of dancing.

Apart of the throwing lances ridiculous damage and maybe heavy throwing axes the other are not in need of a nerf imo.

Still I would love if wpf worked on throwing it's working very nicely on crossbow now so why not?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: LordRichrich on January 30, 2011, 09:34:45 pm
OH!
I thought this up

When you're standing still or moving forward it's the same as now
But while moving backwards OR sideways you receive a damage AND accuracy nerf
This is because you can't possibly throw properly while weaving and bobbing
This would solve nearly ALL problems I think
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Joxer on January 30, 2011, 09:44:50 pm
Yeah something is amiss. Today I was one shotted by darkling_3 with throwing knives. I wear mail hauberk, mail mitten, mail chausses and bascinet with aventail.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: EliteDragon on January 30, 2011, 10:30:09 pm
Yeah something is amiss. Today I was one shotted by darkling_3 with throwing knives. I wear mail hauberk, mail mitten, mail chausses and bascinet with aventail.

Well you most likely got hit in the face. Other than that, it takes about 4-5 throwing knives to kill somebody wearing your armor.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Memento_Mori on January 30, 2011, 10:30:55 pm
I think that throwing weapons should act as a natural supplement to an infantryman's arsenal. They should serve as a way for players to defend against other ranged units and charging cavalry, as well as to soften up enemy infantry forces prior to engaging them in melee combat. However many thrown weapons are currently innacurate, and simply exist as a form of projectile spam which, when it lands, causes rage-inducing one/two hit kills.

I think a good solution to this problem is to slightly decrease the damage dealt by throwing weapons, in particular the high-tier (jarid, lance, heavy ax) weapons. I also think that there should be more time inbetween shots, ie: slower chamber speed. I also think that the accuracy of an immobile thrower should be significantly increased.

Optimally, I would like to see any infantryman who is not a dedicated thrower enter battle with two or three throwing javelins/lances/axes/whatever at most. This would force said non-dedicated thrower to conservatively use their ammunition instead of spamming them as they do now. It will actually be possible for them to conservatively and intelligently use their thrown weapons because they will have increased accuracy. Spam would be reduced. There would be a smaller number of SHIT flying through the air hitting random people. Cavalry would be able to participate in the battle more, instead of hiding, because infantry will have to make a conscious decision as to whether they wish to save their thrown weapons, or potentially waste them on cavalry.

In other words, I propose we make thrown weapons something that almost any infantry dude can effectively use, but which requires some critical thinking. Do I throw one of three of my axes at that archer who's not looking at me right now? Or should I save it for a situation when I might REALLY need it, like when a horse is charging at my face? Should I throw both of my javelines now, at the begning of the fight, or should I save them for the end of the round when we're chasing down that one, naked delaying guy/bitch? Can I even hit that HA with my throwing-lance-of-doom, or should I wait until he gets closer?

And by increasing accuracy, throwers will actually be able to make these decisions with good heart, because they'll be sure they can actually hit what they're throwing at.

For those dedicated throwers, I think thrown weapons should be a bit cheaper. If they would only be getting 2-3 shots per slot, then they shouldn't have to pay as much as they do now. Nobody shouldn't be able to play the way they want, if that way is fair to other players.

tl;dr: More accuracy, so throwers can actually aim. Less ammo and more time between throws, so throwers won't spam. Less damage, so throwers won't cause rage with so many 1 shot kills. Appropriatly cheaper thrown weapons, so dedicated throwers won't be paying for 4 darts when they'll only have two per slot. Or three per slot. Someone else come up with the number, I don't throw much.

I like it a lot, nerf ammo + damage on high tier weps & increase stationary accuracy
imo throwing should be STR as a requirement, PT for added damage, WPP for added accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Camaris on January 30, 2011, 10:59:29 pm
Today we had a battle with some big clan groups on EU4... 50% of the people were throwing... (pure throwing / melee+ throwing / horse + throwing /archer + throwing/ crossbow + throwing / throwing + throwing)

Its a sure sign that something is overpowered if nearly everybody is using it.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: LordRichrich on January 30, 2011, 11:04:11 pm
I'd just like to point out that if I launched a javelin at you, if I used gravitational arc, it would punch right through your chain mail. Maybe even through plate. I'm not sure. But defently chain mail!

If it is possible, can we make throwing weapons need a high arc to do damage, like they would in real life? So if I throw it straight, it's more accurate but does less damage. If I aim up, there's less chance of me hitting some guy but more damage due to gravity!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: ITHROWSHIT on January 30, 2011, 11:18:26 pm
archers nerfed real bad => no more arrow fear => shields devalued => open weapon slots => use of throwing weapons => many throwers & less shields => people die => tears

we should nerf throwing because getting hit in the chest by a massive spinning ax wouldnt realistically kill anyone
or we can buff archers back to restore balance.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: v/onMega on January 30, 2011, 11:40:47 pm
Throwing just took the spot of archery prepatch.

No fun to play battles, simple fucking ranged shit. If the patch ment to balance something, it did, but not in the right way in terms of ranged spam.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: LordRichrich on January 30, 2011, 11:43:14 pm
With throwing axes make it 50/50 that the handle hits them and it bounces off :P
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on January 31, 2011, 12:49:46 am
Any and all discussion on this matter must cease. My suggestion is perfect (almost everything I say is). I HAVE FIXED THE THROWING PROBLEM.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 31, 2011, 10:33:23 am
Throwing should be short ranged - high damage.

Consider this:
Increasing the wpf needed to be accurate with throwing weapons will force me to go from a 11PT/3 agility build to a 7 PT/15 agility build. With light armour (I have that now) and 5 athletics. Now I can suddenly get close to hit people and move out before I get surrounded. Something I can't do with 1 athletics.

For me it wouldn't change much, as it would require me just 1 additional hit to kill people with my throwing weapon of choice. I would just get a lot faster on my feet and my throwing animation would be a lot faster (higher wpf and agility).
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Aesir on January 31, 2011, 11:17:42 am
Throwing should be short ranged - high damage.

Consider this:
Increasing the wpf needed to be accurate with throwing weapons will force me to go from a 11PT/3 agility build to a 7 PT/15 agility build. With light armour (I have that now) and 5 athletics. Now I can suddenly get close to hit people and move out before I get surrounded. Something I can't do with 1 athletics.

For me it wouldn't change much, as it would require me just 1 additional hit to kill people with my throwing weapon of choice. I would just get a lot faster on my feet and my throwing animation would be a lot faster (higher wpf and agility).

+1

in addition of : cheapper price, nerf damge, increase stack, and more wpf to use it as bow for exemple...

for exemple :
Jarids   4500

weight 4
requirement 6
spd rtng 87
shoot speed 10
thrust damage 36 pierce
max ammo 6
weapon length 80
accuracy 103
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode

we need also a real BONUS against Shield on throwing axe, in the medieval way, throwing axe are used to break shield before close combat...
In that way, throwing axe should have less stack and used especialy to break shield
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on January 31, 2011, 11:41:51 am
I agree.

It's kinda silly the lowest tier board shields require at least 2 axes to break them.

Reduce stacksize of axes by 1, but increase the bonus vs shields and the accuracy a bit.

Would make me happy (I use balanced heavy throwing axes).
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ganon on February 01, 2011, 11:10:33 am
Bullshit, you cannot oneshot armored characters with melee, if you talk about peasants they get oneshot by almost everything. Not a strong argument...

I'll try to make it clearer :

1) damage is excessive, and not in line with other weapons
2) requirements are low, especially the wpf requirement to get decent accuracy is too low
3) power throw giving both accuracy and damage is just WRONG and there's no reason it should work that way

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on February 01, 2011, 12:36:47 pm
Bullshit, you cannot oneshot armored characters with melee, if you talk about peasants they get oneshot by almost everything. Not a strong argument...

I'll try to make it clearer :

1) damage is excessive, and not in line with other weapons

*Takes at least 2 hits to kill someone, the same as any higher tier poleaxe or big sword from someone in a melee build. I have range and limited ammo, they can do it until they die. Seems a fair.*

2) requirements are low, especially the wpf requirement to get decent accuracy is too low

*It takes skillpoints. A crossbow has low requirements. On top of that, there is no such thing as decent accuracy on the throwing weapons you're referring too. (Heavy axes and up)*

3) power throw giving both accuracy and damage is just WRONG and there's no reason it should work that way

*Well, if you prefer people with 3 less PT but with 5-6 more athletics, more WM and higher wpf, it should get changed. Currently, high PT means high damage and piss poor speed in both movement and melee combat.*
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ganon on February 01, 2011, 12:46:06 pm
Spawny, throwers can oneshot people, i'm not talking about headshots, the damage is excessive. You even can see some low/mid level throwers, who just created the char, taking half the hp off a level 31 full str character in plate. If they were 2handers, 1handers, pole or archers, they would not even take 20% hp. Really unbalanced.

The need to put more on wpf is to make a tradeoff between power throw and wpf. You can get wpf for accuracy and put less on pt, then damage will be reduced (on top on a much needed damage nerf). If you want both, make a specialized thrower. A hybrid thrower will be either lacking damage or accuracy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Freland on February 01, 2011, 01:52:59 pm
Throwing damge is fine - it's power throw and the amount of throwing weapons which are overpowered.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Casimir on February 01, 2011, 01:59:22 pm
Pure str guys will often 1 hit people in melee
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on February 01, 2011, 03:33:06 pm
Throwing damge is fine - it's power throw and the amount of throwing weapons which are overpowered.
  • Power throw should not increase accuracy
  • If you can melee with a weapon it should take one weapon slot. So no more 16 Jarids on one person but 4. You have a chance to one shot people 4 times - I think that's enough. You can pick up throwing weapons or a melee weapon afterwards. Or just take throwing daggers which hurt a lot with decent PT

Arrows should take up a slot per arrow too. That leaves an archer with 3 chances to headshot kill a guy over long range. I think that's more than enough. You can pick up arrows from others or melee weapons afterwards.

Spawny, throwers can oneshot people, i'm not talking about headshots, the damage is excessive. You even can see some low/mid level throwers, who just created the char, taking half the hp off a level 31 full str character in plate. If they were 2handers, 1handers, pole or archers, they would not even take 20% hp. Really unbalanced.

The need to put more on wpf is to make a tradeoff between power throw and wpf. You can get wpf for accuracy and put less on pt, then damage will be reduced (on top on a much needed damage nerf). If you want both, make a specialized thrower. A hybrid thrower will be either lacking damage or accuracy.

I do not one-hit most people. Only archers/peasants/melee's thinking they're awesome in their robes. Most people I hit with full health have a bit left, if they got hit by someone/something else allready they usually die.

My current build:
Age 45 [30]

Strength 33 
Agility 3 

Throwing 118 

Ironflesh 5 
Power Strike 11 
Shield 0 
Athletics 1 
Riding 0 
Horse Archery 0 
Power Draw 0 
Power Throw 11 
Weapon master * 1 

The build I would run when wpf would become (more) important:
Age 45 [30]
Strength: 24
Agility: 15
Hit points: 59
Converted: 8

Throwing: 148

Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 0
Athletics: 5
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 8
Weapon Master: 5

(The above build can be modified to include no PS and only 3 athletics for 9 PT.)

Major difference between the 2 builds:
The Athletics. It's going to make a big difference for me, as it allows me to get close to a melee fight, throw, then retreat. Something I cannot do now.
With my current build, I have to get so close to melee fights to be able to hit the enemy instead of my teammate, the enemy often disengages my teammate, runs up to me and kills me before proceeding to kill my teammate.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ganon on February 01, 2011, 05:15:30 pm
Then why don't you go with the second build now, if it's so more better.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Camaris on February 01, 2011, 06:11:03 pm
Because he cant oneshot people so easy anymore? TBH Spawny just doesnt want to get his uberstuff nerfed.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Freland on February 01, 2011, 07:19:50 pm
Arrows should take up a slot per arrow too. That leaves an archer with 3 chances to headshot kill a guy over long range. I think that's more than enough. You can pick up arrows from others or melee weapons afterwards.

Well you can't melee with an arrow, can you?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Gorath on February 01, 2011, 07:39:03 pm
Well you can't melee with an arrow, can you?

You can't melee with a war dart either silly.

Oh, you thought that lolpoke was actually useful on it?  No, it's just for giggles.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: AdNecrias on February 01, 2011, 07:51:08 pm
You can't melee with a war dart either silly.

Oh, you thought that lolpoke was actually useful on it?  No, it's just for giggles.

I used it in my thrower alt to kill peasants in duel server. it's better than a long dagger because you can throw it.

On my main:
Throwing 1 hitting me in my brigadine is fine, if you consider I can hardly shoot back 'cause of the shield the dudes got and i need 3-5 hits to drop someone with a good amount of luck. That's what STR builds are for.
I'm just annoyed they can do the same to my destrier when i got money for it. even if it's a leg/ass hit. (horse ass hit means i'm running away which means it's the lowest damage I'll get from getting shot.)

Haven't played that much lately so might have the wrong feeling but:

PT increasing accuracy is just like PD increasing accuracy on archers.
Full STR shouldn't be viable to anyone, specially ranged.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Bonze on February 01, 2011, 09:00:34 pm
Strength 39 
Agility 3 



One Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]
Two Handed 42 [1 WPF cost]
Polearm 4 [1 WPF cost]
Archery 1 [1 WPF cost]
Crossbow 1 [1 WPF cost]
Throwing 103 [5 WPF cost]


Ironflesh 0 
Power Strike 3 
Shield 0 
Athletics 1 
Riding 0 
Horse Archery 0 
Power Draw 0 
Power Throw 13 
Weapon master * 0

Its a pure Siege build . I can onshot Naked and low armored chars with ONE freaking Dagger but my Agi/Athletics uhhh.. :lol:. Iam a easy kill for players with huscarl or board shields.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: AdNecrias on February 01, 2011, 09:28:09 pm
Strength 39 
Agility 3 



One Handed 1 [1 WPF cost]
Two Handed 42 [1 WPF cost]
Polearm 4 [1 WPF cost]
Archery 1 [1 WPF cost]
Crossbow 1 [1 WPF cost]
Throwing 103 [5 WPF cost]


Ironflesh 0 
Power Strike 3 
Shield 0 
Athletics 1 
Riding 0 
Horse Archery 0 
Power Draw 0 
Power Throw 13 
Weapon master * 0

Its a pure Siege build . I can onshot Naked and low armored chars with ONE freaking Dagger but my Agi/Athletics uhhh.. :lol:. Iam a easy kill for players with huscarl or board shields.

Won't Jarids fix that for you?
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Belmont on February 01, 2011, 09:28:18 pm
Quote from: Spawny
I do not one-hit most people. Only archers/peasants/melee's thinking they're awesome in their robes. Most people I hit with full health have a bit left, if they got hit by someone/something else allready they usually die.

As a thrower with 12 PT pre patch (level 44) I call bullshit on your statement. I was able to one hit people wearing 40+ armor (which is not that common anymore) easily with Jarids and Heavy Axes. Very few people (=70+ armor tincans) survived a Throwing Lance and even if they did they were left at less than 5%, rendering them useless.

Throwing is a ranged weapon, has fast reload speed, highinsane damage, can be used with a shield and has decent accuracy (no matter the reticule, if you know your weapon you can hit your target at a distance of 15 meters). Either the damage or reload speed deserves a nerf to put them in line with the other ranged weapons.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: EponiCo on February 01, 2011, 10:10:52 pm
With only 5pt and heavy axes I can twoshot people in mail frequently, occassionally takes 3.
Don't know how that's balanced, I can put all the rest into melee, athletics, shield and backpeddleturtlethrow at least 2 people  with 2 stacks for only 10k.
Oh, all I missed I can pick up again. Yes, archers can do that, too, but archers only fire at long ranges and would be foolish to attempt a point blank shot
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Motorsheep on February 01, 2011, 10:51:17 pm
I suck at Warband (137 to 432 k/d ratio on my main char), and when I made a thrower this past weekend I was suddenly killing people left and right with my throwing axes before I was even level 15.

I hate to admit it, but something's got to be wrong with that.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on February 02, 2011, 03:30:23 pm
I was playing around yesterday with my thrower and everytime I got killed by a 2h/polearms/cav guy or combination of that it was a 1 hit kill. There has to be something wrong with that.

Also, when I picked up a 2h sword I could do the same with just 1 wpf in 2h. Even better yet, I never ran out of swings! When I was attacked, all I had to do was block. Didn't even have to pray the X button worked the first time I pressed it or that my last throw passed through my enemy.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (maybe a slight damage reduction?)
Post by: Dark207 on February 02, 2011, 03:35:02 pm
blah blah blah...
-I'm close to 100 WPF in throwing, and that shit's still not very accurate.

You need lots of powerthrow to be accurate, My thrower has 10 powerthrow and with knives is spot on accurate 100% of the time, the only times I miss is when people are dodging or the trajectory curves downwards too much (I suck calculating shit like that)


On that note, throwing is god damn OP. I use knives yet I still own people, I can't imagine what hell I'd unleash if I bought axes, lances don't work well in moving so it's not often I use them, but half the time I somehow manage to get them over board shields and into people's heads - something is damn wrong there!
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2011, 03:40:19 pm
It's fucking annoying how once you've managed to reach a thrower by dodging like a chimpanzee on speed and manage to slash/thrust the thrower once, they can just backpedal some more and get another throw in and then they can jump and get yet another throw in... and no way are you surviving several axes from point blank range, and they can't miss either.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Shigeru on February 02, 2011, 03:43:09 pm
I definitely think throwing does not need another nerf, for those who never took up the profession prior to the patch updates they wouldn't notice the massive projectile speed nerf which destroyed a lot of throwing's potency.

As opposed to continuously nerfing all ranged classes until melee is the only viable choice they should look into buffing back archery and crossbows slightly to fix the imbalance towards throwers. As it is now though I think throwing is perfectly fine, you miss a lot and when you do hit you deal a significant amount of damage.

Folks need to realize that you will not always make it to melee combat, and you won't always make it into melee combat unscathed.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2011, 03:47:54 pm
Melee combat is what M&B is all about, throwing and archery is there to add diversity. And throwing in itself shouldn't even be a "profession" in itself, it's retarded. It should be something melee'ers use to soften up their target.

Throwing is definitely NOT fine. Archery and xbows are.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Belmont on February 02, 2011, 03:59:35 pm
I was playing around yesterday with my thrower and everytime I got killed by a 2h/polearms/cav guy or combination of that it was a 1 hit kill. There has to be something wrong with that.

Also, when I picked up a 2h sword I could do the same with just 1 wpf in 2h. Even better yet, I never ran out of swings! When I was attacked, all I had to do was block. Didn't even have to pray the X button worked the first time I pressed it or that my last throw passed through my enemy.

Do you expect anyone to take you seriously with these posts?

You have 33 STR and 5 Ironflesh, in total you have 78 HP which is a LOT higher than 90%(made up statistic for the win!) of the players. (For reference: a common 18-18 build with 6 IF will have 65 HP)
You have 11 PS which is almost *double* the power strike a common 18-18 build would have. I do not see how it is surprising that you are able to one hit people.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2011, 04:09:09 pm
Yeaaaaaaah. My dedicated 2her does not 1 hit people in armor. At 31, it's usually 3 hits on average or like 5-6 on the STR my old friends.

And any melee weapon (except crushthrough) can be blocked. Which is the difference between throwing and melee.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Cain on February 02, 2011, 04:14:13 pm
Throwing is fine, it's terribly inaccurate unless you go for the pure build. I only get a few kills with my throwing spears. And it is true it does soften up the target, I don't see what's wrong with that.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Spawny on February 02, 2011, 04:35:37 pm
Do you expect anyone to take you seriously with these posts?

You have 33 STR and 5 Ironflesh, in total you have 78 HP which is a LOT higher than 90%(made up statistic for the win!) of the players. (For reference: a common 18-18 build with 6 IF will have 65 HP)
You have 11 PS which is almost *double* the power strike a common 18-18 build would have. I do not see how it is surprising that you are able to one hit people.

You missed the fact I got 1 hit killed all the time too. And no, I wasn't trying to be serious.
I just get a bit tired of people complaining how OP throwing is when you can do a lot better (k/d wise) with a 1h/shield or 2h/polearm or cavalry build.
And it's really not the higher tier throwing weapons that make throwing OP, it's the lower tier.
Heavy throwing axes are PT4 (yes, just 4) and javelins are PT 3. Besides those 2, I use the darts and sometimes rocks for the lolfactor.
Heavy throwing axes are still a bit crappy when it comes to accuracy, but you can arc those things really well. When I'm on an even level with a few teammates running towards an enemy, I can curve the damn things over my teammates into the enemy (or his shield). On top of that, they deal quite a lot of damage, so when I manage to hit someone (randomfactor), it hurts.
The javelins are very good. They actually go in the direction you throw them. They do pretty good pierce damage and 2 are usually enough to kill most players.
The darts are archer killers. Just 2 or 3 needed per archer, good range, fast and very accurate.

Played 1 round with throwing lances: 2 kills 6 misses (shields/plain misses)
Played the next round with javelins: 8 kills, 2 wounded, 6 misses.
Next up heavy axes: No kills, got killed by a crossbow. Happened the next round too. Round after that I got 1 kill with throwing axes, then I got killed by melee (1 hit).

Nerf jarids/spears/lances and maybe heavy axes, but it would be better to alter the way throwing works.

Why not make PT just a requirement and have it do nothing else (could be hardcoded though). WPF should be used for both accuracy and damage. 150 wpf in throwing could be the equivalent of what 7 PT with 100 wpf is now. Change PT requirements on throwing weapons in such a way you can't get 4 PT+24 agility and throw heavy axes/javelins. Remove the friggin throwing lances allready. They are silly.
Imo, this would leave a dedicated thrower nearly unchanged (I would get more athletics, but no or very little ps. Overall damage still at PT7-PT9 levels), but it would make hybid throwers what they should be: secondary mode to soften shields before the melee fight.

The same should be done for melee weapons. No strength requirement, just a PS requirement. The highest tier swords needing 6 or 7 PS. This eliminates high agility spammers with high damage weapons AND it prevents almost all archers from pulling out a greatsword for melee.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Belmont on February 02, 2011, 05:08:54 pm
Quote from: Spawny
You missed the fact I got 1 hit killed all the time too.
Even naked it is very unlikely for you to be one hit as you have 78 HP. With decent armor you can easily survive a lot of hits. Before the patch I was level 44 with 36 STR and no IF and I could still a hell of a beating with Transitional.

Quote from: Spawny
I just get a bit tired of people complaining how OP throwing is when you can do a lot better (k/d wise) with a 1h/shield or 2h/polearm or cavalry build.
Disagree, throwing allows you to get a very high kill death ratio when used as a secondary weapon. Pre patch I had a KD ratio of over 4.0 and most of my kills were from my throwing weapons. Using KD to check whether a weapon is OP or UP is not an optimal way to do it. Usage rate of a particular weapon type or even weapon is slightly better as it allows you to see what the current FOTM is.

Quote from: Spawny
And it's really not the higher tier throwing weapons that make throwing OP, it's the lower tier.
Disagree, lances are still broken and were broken before the patch, being able to one hit kill most players wearing high tier armor is not fair, unless it is a head shot. It is possible to carry 9 lances (heirloomed) and a melee weapon. I consider Jarids to be high tier too as they are very deadly at 40p base.

Quote from: Spawny
Heavy throwing axes are PT4 (yes, just 4) and javelins are PT 3. Besides those 2, I use the darts and sometimes rocks for the lolfactor.
Throwing weapons scale too well with higher PT due to their high base damage. This is not a problem in Native as PT is limited but on cRPG you can stack PT which can be a problem (stacking other skills is also problematic but I believe PT takes the crown).

Quote from: Spawny
Heavy throwing axes are still a bit crappy when it comes to accuracy, but you can arc those things really well. When I'm on an even level with a few teammates running towards an enemy, I can curve the damn things over my teammates into the enemy (or his shield). On top of that, they deal quite a lot of damage, so when I manage to hit someone (randomfactor), it hurts.
The javelins are very good. They actually go in the direction you throw them. They do pretty good pierce damage and 2 are usually enough to kill most players.
The darts are archer killers. Just 2 or 3 needed per archer, good range, fast and very accurate.
If you are able to properly arc an axe you deserve the kill (damage could be adjusted a bit, though). In my opinion, all piercing throwing weapons damage should be adjusted in order to match the new damage values of crossbows and bows. War Darts do not need a nerf nor a buff, they are sadly underused for what they offer.

Quote from: Spawny
Nerf jarids/spears/lances and maybe heavy axes, but it would be better to alter the way throwing works.
It is impossible to alter the mechanics on how throwing works so the only solution is to nerf the weapons themselves.

Quote from: Spawny
Why not make PT just a requirement and have it do nothing else (could be hardcoded though). WPF should be used for both accuracy and damage.

The same should be done for melee weapons. No strength requirement, just a PS requirement. The highest tier swords needing 6 or 7 PS. This eliminates high agility spammers with high damage weapons AND it prevents almost all archers from pulling out a greatsword for melee.

AFAIK, similar suggestions have been made and they were rejected because it is hardcorded.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: gazda on February 02, 2011, 06:15:41 pm
you are all complaining that throwing needs nerf, NOT TRUE, hybrid throwers/2h.1h.pole, hybrids in general, need nerf.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Tai Feng on February 02, 2011, 06:24:27 pm
hybrids in general, need nerf.

Hybrids are good for gameplay and fun.

Fun - you can change and variate playstyles without having to have multiple alts
Gameplay - do I really want to see Nord players with 1H, then some with war spear only, some with 2H axe only, then some with throwing only? I think it's much cooler with hybrids.

It's the same with cavalry and ranged shooters. Sure, we could have archers with 1H sword only like in Native. Or cavalry that pretty much sucks when dismounted. But I don't think many would agree to that.

People dislike hybrids only on melee it seems. If archer kills 5 people in melee with 2H sword that's ok, but if melee kills 5 people with throwing instead of his primary weapon, then hybrids are horrible.


(Note: I'm speaking in general and not saying any of these classes is (im)balanced.)
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Ujin on February 02, 2011, 07:18:04 pm
hybrids in general, need nerf.

No
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2011, 07:24:22 pm
Hybrids don't need a nerf, pure characters need a buff. :3

And it's true. You don't lose much by going hybrid.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on February 02, 2011, 07:33:54 pm
pure characters need a buff. :3

No, the increased wpf costs are here precisely because people were getting silly wpf.

Now as a pure you have more gold (to pay for upkeep for better stuff), somewhat more wpf, and in most cases more skill points as well. Don't make it sound like all that is nothing.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: gazda on February 02, 2011, 07:34:33 pm
Hybrids don't need a nerf, pure characters need a buff. :3

And it's true. You don't lose much by going hybrid.

same thing hybrids nerf or pure ones buff works either ways for me

There is no reason for going pure thrower right now, it doesnt improve your accuracy or damage by the amount it should,
compared to what and how many you invested,
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Centurion on February 02, 2011, 07:35:59 pm
Don't nerf hybrids were the cooliest in dah whole world  :shock:

Also. Nack Nack  a tick tack in the back back of yo sack sack while you pack pack your mack attack

Im a little high right now^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ just explain the above :D :twisted: :rolleyes: :lol: 8-) :mrgreen: :shock: :o :o
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Xant on February 02, 2011, 07:43:46 pm
No, the increased wpf costs are here precisely because people were getting silly wpf.

So? Should you not get higher WPF in return for not investing into other skills? Maybe the old ones were too high, but a slight buff wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Patricia on February 02, 2011, 07:46:06 pm
Don't nerf hybrids were the cooliest in dah whole world  :shock:

Also. Nack Nack  a tick tack in the back back of yo sack sack while you pack pack your mack attack

Im a little high right now^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ just explain the above :D :twisted: :rolleyes: :lol: 8-) :mrgreen: :shock: :o :o

People having the NEED to tell the world they're high/drunk are most likely not high/drunk at all and only wants to look "cool", implying being drunk or high as shit is cool, which it's not since you just act like a stupid idiot.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on February 02, 2011, 07:47:22 pm
So? Should you not get higher WPF in return for not investing into other skills? Maybe the old ones were too high, but a slight buff wouldn't hurt.

Rather nerf hybrids by making wpf somewhat more expensive at a earlier stage and a touch less expensive at later stages so it amounts to the same more for pures as it does now, but less for hybrids.

Anyway, wpf matters bugger all for some forms of hybridization. You can be a pure twohander and the only sacrifices to use throwing effectively are points invested and upkeep costs, with all your wpf still in 2h. Wpf isn't the culprit of the "everyone with a throwing weapon" scourge.

Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Memento_Mori on February 02, 2011, 08:12:19 pm
No, the increased wpf costs are here precisely because people were getting silly wpf.

Now as a pure you have more gold (to pay for upkeep for better stuff), somewhat more wpf, and in most cases more skill points as well. Don't make it sound like all that is nothing.

@ Bruce, IMO pre patch people were getting silly WPP because of retirement adding a bonus to it. Allowing people to stack a lot of WPP once they had retired a few times, thus negating the penalty of WPP of armors and being able to swing godly speeds in full plate.

As a pure I have 8 WM giving me 174 in 2h
as a hybrid melee/thrower I have 6 WM 150 in 2h, 50 in throwing
there is very little gain for the extra WM I put into 2h if I had more knowledge about the WPP system at the time it would have been more efficient to hybrid than specialize.
As a hybrid melee/archer at level 31 I will have 8 WM 135 in 2h, 134 in archery


I really don't mind that it is better to hybrid than specialize, I think that this is how it should be, soldiers should be trained to handle different situations. Not so much, rock beats scissors, paper beats rock, scissors beats paper.
my specialized character has 3 more attribute points more than the hybrids aswell so think about that too.

IMO Hybrids have the advantage in total skill points & total WPP where as Specialized have the advantage of total attributes and a high level in the skills they did specialize in, low level in the skills they for-go on there way to specializing AGI or STR or balanced some what inbetween.
Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: bruce on February 02, 2011, 08:21:57 pm
Tbh, throwing isn't a problem about hybrids, but about throwing itself. I don't mind melee characters having something to throw before the melee and at runners/etc. However the excessive damage of high-tier throwables compared with the fact you can spam them quite damn well, does.

I don't think we should judge hybrids based on people who took throwing because it's the "in" thing to do due to its effectiveness. The whole wpf thing is moot, you might as well have 0 wpf in throwing and do just fine.




Title: Re: Throwing weapons (need balancing )
Post by: Memento_Mori on February 02, 2011, 08:35:35 pm
Tbh, throwing isn't a problem about hybrids, but about throwing itself. I don't mind melee characters having something to throw before the melee and at runners/etc. However the excessive damage of high-tier throwables compared with the fact you can spam them quite damn well, does.

I don't think we should judge hybrids based on people who took throwing because it's the "in" thing to do due to its effectiveness. The whole wpf thing is moot, you might as well have 0 wpf in throwing and do just fine.

IMO the problem with throwing weapons is the number of higher tier ammo you have, -1 ammo would solve a lot of the problems. (I often wonder why the pack of javelins shows 3 javelins but there are actually 4.. ) maybe even a ninja nerf on the damage like -1 or 2

& about the WPP being moot, that is only when hybriding a thrower, you can still hybrid an archer and have more effective & efficient use of your WPP, which is why I posted my hybrid archer build at level 31, with a total of 270 WPP and my lvl 31 specialized with a total of 174. I also stated that there is no problem with this because the trade off is HYBRID = MORE TOTAL WPP, MORE TOTAL SKILL POINTS, SPECIALIZED = MORE ATTRIBUTE POINTS, HIGHER SPECIALIZED SKILL, LESS TOTAL SKILL POINTS.

All of which, my opinion.