Throwing weapons (need balancing )

[Meow]

Yesterday i got onehitted 2-3 times with no headshot by a thrower called Franciska_Lance or something like that.
Now you could say: 1 hits and throwing that is nothing special it happens very often.

But i am a 21 STR Build (ok no IF) and had a complete Gothic Plate (Plate-Foots, Sugarloaf, Plate Mittens, Gothic Plate)
How the hell is this throwingbitch able to oneshot a fullplate????

PS: Dont take that "throwingbitch" to serious but thats the correct name to them after patch in our teamspeak ;)

might want to add what kind of weapon it was as most people in chain survive two throwing axes. so i figure you were killed by throwing lances which would require you to zombielike rushing into the thrower to give him a chance to actually hit you with any of the two shots he gets for each slot used on those...

the whole nerfing is just getting out of hand.
if you demand less ammo and less damage for throwing you might as well remove it.
if you can't kill people with one of the four stacks of ammo you get there is no point in bringing those weapons.

it's like requesting to nerf all melee weapons and make them do half damage...it would make the game freaking boring.
i play this game because people die after one or two good hits. no need to nerf everything into the ground untill it feels like an arcade beat em up...

most people miss the point that they are not supposed to run up to ranged toons in a straight line with a chambered overhead...

[Boughtthefarm]

it's like requesting to nerf all melee weapons and make them do half damage...it would make the game freaking boring.
i play this game because people die after one or two good hits. no need to nerf everything into the ground untill it feels like an arcade beat em up...

most people miss the point that they are not supposed to run up to ranged toons in a straight line with a chambered overhead...

Agreed, and as a person who often dies fast, that does not stop me playing.  You are also correct about the overhead nutters, but it is funny when they do run at yah

[Jalum]

Hi everyone.   10PT,  30Str checking in.  My weapon slots are all throwing weapons.  I have 1 Athletics.

Damage Output

Infantry and Horsebumpers can potentially inflict as much damage as the enemy team has in life.  They never run out of stamina by swinging their arm.  Moving close to them does not interrupt or negate their attacks, but they must be in melee range to inflict this damage.

Warbow + Bodkin Arrows can inflict a total of 1632 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Moving close to an archer interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to shoot their bow.  The archer can inflict damage from long range.

Crossbow + Steel Bolts can inflict a total of 3735 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Moving close to the xbowman interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to shoot their xbow.  The xbowman can inflict damage from extreme range.

Throwing Lances in all slots can inflict 480 damage in the course of the match, assuming no damage increasing skills.  Jarids, a much more common choice, would enable the Thrower to inflict 640 damage if all sixteen jarids hit.  Moving close to the Thrower interrupts their attacks and makes them unable to throw their weapon.  They can switch to alternate melee mode, but this is not a competent fighting style.  The Thrower can inflict damage only in short to medium ranges.

Upkeep Cost of the Weapon System

Infantry - Melee weapons don't break or run out of ammunition.  A dedicated 2h or polearm user might only have one weapon slot used.  A 1H + Shield guy might go with an Elite Scimitar and Huscarl Round Shield.  So probably 10-15k to give the player a competitive fighting weapon.  They can add additional weapons on top if they want damage type variety, but that's a bit of a luxury right now.

Cav - Probably as above, plus a 10-20k horse.  You can do it for much less with a mediocre horse and that really long 1H axe that Lady GaGa uses.  I equip my cav character in less than 20k total.

Archers and Xbow - 23k for the Warbow and Bodkins, 25k for Sniper Crossbow and Steel Bolts.

Throwers - 44k for eight throwing lances.  30k for sixteen jarids.

Please remember that the above totals are only for the weapon systems.  chadz has stated that right now the system is balanced so that 48.5k is about the breakeven point for gold upkeep.  This would limit a throwing lance character to less than 5k to cover his head, body, legs, hands, and horse.

So, yeah...I'm not really understanding the calls for nerfs.  Let me ask you this:

When was the last time you were dead/spectating in a match, and it was a thrown weapon guy who was the final holdout?  It never happens.  It's always a Cav character who tries to solo the remains of the other team, Walt F4 (who usually successfully solos the remains of the other team), or an archer hidden in a tree shooting arrows from a thousand meters away.  It's never a Thrower because Throwers die fast and easy.

No one bats an eye when top end melee characters, cav characters, or archers top the kill lists.  But now that Throwers are getting up there, people have problems.

[Tai Feng]

I'm getting 1 shotted with throwing weapons too often, and that's with javelins and axes (not lances or jarids) on my elite armor altogether (even my Charger got one shotted with axe). I love the idea of throwing weapons and skrimishes, but while I'm constantly getting shot by throwing weapons and can't even remember being one-shotted by crossbow - there's something wrong here.

[Eveneska]

I have to agree with this post. There seems to be way to much throwing in matches and it takes a lot away from melee. The damage does not make sense on some of the higher items as somebody already mentioned. Their melee version does half the damage (throwing lances). Whereas I think the knives and star are fine on damage, the upper items need damage to be reduced. Throwing should be a secondary focus...not a primary spam throwing build.
I think most people would agree on this apart from those that are using it.

[Thomek]

When was the last time you were dead/spectating in a match, and it was a thrown weapon guy who was the final holdout?  It never happens.

lol you never saw Gnjus?

Main problem is not pure throwers, although they are dangerous before they die, they are not the main culprit. As I see it, investing 6-7 points in throwing in stead of useless IF (if shielder), and some wpf (because of the rather hard wpf capping, hybrids are much more economical) makes you extremely dangerous.

I think the problem of throwers lie in 2 places:

1. Powerthrow adds accuracy.
2. WPF cap is too hard atm, and hybrids are much much more economical wpf wise.

Solution:

1. Remove most if not all of Powerthrow-based accuracy.
2. Soften the wpf capping a little

[krauth]

Just throwing an idea around. What I was thinking is that either power throw, or the weight of the weapon could decrease accuracy slightly, requiring a reasonable amount of wpf to compensate.

[Ujin]

I agree with Thomek here, the biggest problem is 1h+ throwing hybrids with shields who constantly backpedal. Something should be done with throwing, everyone and his mom/dad/goldfish has throwing nowadays and it is not even close to the word " balanced " . I've started this topic some time ago, but now things are getting even worse and so far there is no end to it.

I see three solutions :

- drastic decrease of the "reload speed" of throwing weapons .  Backpedalling won't be as annoying and deadly.    *My personal favorite*

- significant decrease in the amount of profectiles per stack

- moderate damage reduction. Although i believe this won't solve the problem now anyway, throwing is still too good to not have it

[bruce]

2. Soften the wpf capping a little

It just brings us back the problems which led to the wpf cap being there, without making it somehow more or less economical to build a hybrid. As long as throwing rapes as it does now, people will grab it. It doesn't even matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, because one shot will kill lightly armoured/no IF people and two kill most if not all players. Spam it at a crowd and you'll score some kills, and even with its shit acc you can always oneshot a horse with it.

The problem is partially that throwing is too damn effective in itself*, and partially that ranged (bar crossbows) is fairly cheap to upkeep, so taking throwing somethings doesn't really bust your budget. 3 packs of heavy throwing axes are 15K. That isn't really a lot to maintain, and gives you a hell of a lot of punching power. Hell, 3 packs of javelins are even more economical and quite deadly as well.

*and you can spam projectiles like there's no tommorow.

[Tai Feng]

Gold increase.

If upkeep wasn't as cheap as it is now (overall), then not everyone would take throwing, or good throwing weapons, consistently.
The problem right now is that many can be in their equipment of choice the entire time, and not be concerned with upkeep.


There's nothing wrong IMO with stack size. People who invest in throw should have fun throwing. Also, damage is okayish, and usually only a problem with those who focus on throwing (unfortunately too many now). A slight reduction would do, but perhaps very slight. Throwing should not be only good with those who have 12 in PT.


So overall, I think best solution would be to simply increase the cost.

[UrLukur]

Gold increase.

If upkeep wasn't as cheap as it is now (overall), then not everyone would take throwing, or good throwing weapons, consistently.
The problem right now is that many can be in their equipment of choice the entire time, and not be concerned with upkeep.


There's nothing wrong IMO with stack size. People who invest in throw should have fun throwing. Also, damage is okayish, and usually only a problem with those who focus on throwing (unfortunately too many now). A slight reduction would do, but perhaps very slight. Throwing should not be only good with those who have 12 in PT.


So overall, I think best solution would be to simply increase the cost.

Stack sizes are too much, decreasing them would help fighting with spam throwing, and would make throwing weapons lighter and better as support. But well, adding simple animation for getting them from the back or belt would balance them considerably.

[Camaris]

Solution for spear-like Throwing-Weapons:

Reduce damage a lot but if someone is running forward while throwing them increase damage ;)

[Vexus]

I've seen a decrease in throwers lately actually since high tier are too costly and to use low tiers effectively you need to be slow.

[Thomek]

It just brings us back the problems which led to the wpf cap being there, without making it somehow more or less economical to build a hybrid. As long as throwing rapes as it does now, people will grab it. It doesn't even matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, because one shot will kill lightly armoured/no IF people and two kill most if not all players. Spam it at a crowd and you'll score some kills, and even with its shit acc you can always oneshot a horse with it.

The problem is partially that throwing is too damn effective in itself*, and partially that ranged (bar crossbows) is fairly cheap to upkeep, so taking throwing somethings doesn't really bust your budget. 3 packs of heavy throwing axes are 15K. That isn't really a lot to maintain, and gives you a hell of a lot of punching power. Hell, 3 packs of javelins are even more economical and quite deadly as well.

*and you can spam projectiles like there's no tommorow.

I'm not talking about removing the wpf penalty, but reduce the penalty only slightly. Then we would be back to more purists builds, and less hybrids.
(Going over 150 wpf in any prof is extremely costly atm)

Also, all accuracy in throwing should come from WPF:

* There would be no more 10PT with 0wpf builds that are also Accurate. (they are out there, and very effective.)
* Accurate throwers would perhaps have 6-7PT and 170 WPF

Atm Throwing doesn't have the AGI vs STR dilemma that most other classes have.

[EponiCo]

Nope, penalty is fine, hybrids are fine.
Crossbow pays heavily to use it, noone takes it just for one or two cheap shots.
Archer ... well, you'd be way more effective just charging with the group if you only invest a few points.
Melee hybrids - nonexistant if you could stack wpf.
Only offender is throwing.