cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 09:58:53 am

Title: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 09:58:53 am
Commander Mode

So, due to bad luck, we are running two strong servers parallel for a few weeks. Instead of just pay for it with no gain, we thought "what can we do to squeeze out the cpu?".

The answer is bots.

Lots of them.

Commander mode:
Intended to be a gamemode where 3 people on each side control cav, inf and archers each.
Each side can have 200 bots. (may vary from server to server)
Apparently, it does work with more players too.

You can use the native commands to control them.
XP&Gold is now enabled. If you think about leeching, expect a swift and partially just banhammer.

Please use this topic for feedback. Right now, the bots are the native troops, with some basic balance adaptions.
More things are possible.

I'd also be interested in balance opinions - what troop type is too strong, what troop type is too weak.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Glyph on May 18, 2013, 10:08:48 am
cool idea! would be fun if it would work properly like in NW. If you guys aren't already doing it, I'd suggest asking the devs of NW for some advice on how to do it.

also first!!!
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: GiuseppeBlackRose on May 18, 2013, 10:09:57 am
COOLL IDEA,  :!:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Sniger on May 18, 2013, 10:10:58 am
crpg raiding :D :lol: \0/
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Duster on May 18, 2013, 10:11:08 am
Please be real....


EDIT: IS REAL
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Penguin on May 18, 2013, 10:15:01 am
Is there a plan for different types of troops (like plate infantry, naked jarid throwers, xbow cav)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Sniger on May 18, 2013, 10:16:58 am
or what about us vs. ai? :D 200 players vs. 500 bots! that will make the server cry! :D
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 10:17:08 am
Cooooooooooooool
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: BadooN on May 18, 2013, 10:21:49 am
Rhodok crossbowmen on top of hills OP
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Panos on May 18, 2013, 10:22:55 am
After playing for an hour yesterday  :


- Add more time at the round start  for the players to discuss which part of the army they want to command

- There should be a command, that orders the AI to charge a specific part of the map, and not charge in general

- Great unbalance between the armies, e.g Sarranid archers had greater armour than the Nord huscarls

- Commanders should be able to pick up weapons, or at least give them a plain sword

- Give gloves to the commanders / and heavier horse (we are lords after all )

Gonna play some more today, great mod.

Thanks devs  :mrgreen:


EDIT 1 :

- If there are multiple commanders on one team, and they all die except one, the last one should take over the whole army.


EDIT 2 :

- In the tab menu, remove the score point, and add how many troops each commander has.


EDIT 3:

- It seems that the mod is bugged, played 4 battle so far, all were Rhodoks V  Rhodoks   or   Nords V Rhodoks

- Maps are huge, a mini radar would be nice, just to know where your allies are

- Remove MOTF

- Remove repairs, I don`t want to pay 2,5 k gold for that plate armor

- If you go spectator, and re enter one team, your multi is still there, this will be good for leechers
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: the real god emperor on May 18, 2013, 10:25:29 am
Just... awesome...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Sniger on May 18, 2013, 10:25:35 am
what server will run commander? a new one or one of the existing?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Herr_Thomas on May 18, 2013, 10:26:00 am
I've loved what I've played so far with it, a few tweaks to the command system as Panos said and a few more balance tweaks and this'll be golden.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on May 18, 2013, 10:35:54 am
cRPG 3.0
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 10:36:41 am
Added new servers:
EU_Commander_250
EU_Commander_200
EU_Commander_150
EU_Commander_100
EU_Commander_50

(number is the bots per team)

so people with weaker pcs can just join a smaller bot number
(it's possible the 250 one crashes. when tested with 300 crashs were frequent. just join the 200 server if the 250 crashes)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 10:46:48 am
Customizable troops would propel this into serious awesomeness territory. Although the cRPG items are not that A.I. friendly, so perhaps just using Native items, but customizable builds.

More importantly, replace the Phrygian Helmet of the player character with a Sallet, this looks dumb. And for the love of god allow us to fight ourselves.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 11:36:27 am
I have one suggestion:

Make it so that commanders can have like 1 minute to talk with the others about, which leader to lead which type of units in battle.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 18, 2013, 11:37:17 am
allow us to fight ourselves otherwise it will be just meh.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 18, 2013, 11:43:00 am
Screenshots:
(Heavy load)
(http://min.us/mJNEpRe7KjC7i (http://min.us/mJNEpRe7KjC7i))

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 11:48:12 am
Posting the troops here - maybe someone wants to go over them and edit them to be a bit more balanced.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Jacko on May 18, 2013, 11:53:29 am
Now all we need is a cRPG troop tree..
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tore on May 18, 2013, 11:53:40 am
I think Nord and Rhodok cav should be better since you need too have each troop type on each team. :)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 11:58:09 am
One more suggestion,

In floris when a cav is dismounted it becomes an inf. Can you do that as well?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Largg on May 18, 2013, 12:15:14 pm
Adjust the map rotation, hilly plains are absolutely terrible for good fights. Maps can be really huge and people have major troubles even finding each other. Let alone if there happens to be dense fog. I rode for 1 min in one direction and the map still kept going on.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Banok on May 18, 2013, 12:15:29 pm
I been playin alot of TLD, last time I played warband singleplayer was YEARS ago. point is these fucking F1, F2, F3 menus are so retarded when your not used to them. make me use all the wrong commands. so much easier to just press the button for the command I want than remember some stupid combination, fail and tell my guys to switch to fists in the middle of the fight.

sorry mode seems cool but I really do not like these controls at all.

+1 for no random mountain bullshit maps also.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 18, 2013, 12:31:33 pm
Hmm .... About balance , nord scouts are REALLY weak ...  :)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2013, 12:34:14 pm
Quote from: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 10:46:48 am
Customizable troops would propel this into serious awesomeness territory. Although the cRPG items are not that A.I. friendly, so perhaps just using Native items, but customizable builds.

More importantly, replace the Phrygian Helmet of the player character with a Sallet, this looks dumb. And for the love of god allow us to fight ourselves.

I would suggest a "commander" tab in the crpg page next to the "battles" tab or something. Where you can choose equip for your troops, choose what faction the troops are etc.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Molly on May 18, 2013, 12:37:12 pm
I don't like the idea of commanders with weapons. Simply because some tards will just go and slaughter all commanders of the enemy team. That would break the whole point of the gamemode...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 12:45:08 pm
Quote from: benkei on May 18, 2013, 12:37:12 pm
I don't like the idea of commanders with weapons. Simply because some tards will just go and slaughter all commanders of the enemy team. That would break the whole point of the gamemode...
Hide behind your troops. Only give weak weapons.

I would love to have access to the backspace command menu you have in Warband singleplayer normally, gives you good overview and makes commanding so much easier.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Banok on May 18, 2013, 12:46:09 pm
what if your troops lost morale and started fleeing if fighting when their commander not nearby?

I really would like to be able to fight with the troops, but anyway I dont think this mode can ever really take off with such limited controls. you can't get your inf to attack a target they all split and attack diferent targets.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 18, 2013, 12:51:14 pm
Quote from: Banok on May 18, 2013, 12:46:09 pm
what if your troops lost morale and started fleeing if fighting when their commander not nearby?

Can't just throw a real morale system in there, would take time etc.
Else sure, could give the Commander an aura which gives +1 morale when nearby, -1 when away, drop down below a certain number and the troops start retreating. Crude, but simple.

The easiest for the moment would be if a Commander dies, his troops loses a percentage of their total HP or Stats, which would be their drop in "morale".
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ulmarth on May 18, 2013, 01:14:27 pm
So this is like that mode from Napoleon Mount and Blade?    :(
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Miwiw on May 18, 2013, 01:16:14 pm
Better, as this will be improved.
NW commander mode got many bugs... it was alright during beta and shortly after release.. but meh
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: //saxon on May 18, 2013, 01:17:42 pm
please make it so you can use your own gear and char stats please!
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Kafein on May 18, 2013, 01:22:16 pm
The AI is pretty weak against cav, how will that be balanced ?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: tkn123 on May 18, 2013, 01:38:20 pm
2 points:

I know we won't be fighting in the mode but having a shield would be helpful as then we don't die that easily.

Also, having to repair Gothic plate every time we want to play is annoying, it also limits the mode to those people who can afford it. If we have to repair what we wear can we not chose it ourselves?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 01:47:15 pm
Constantly switch around with holding position and charging, this way you can keep your troops together and charge specific locations. Cav is pretty easy to fight with an infantry blob as well, if you constinously move them backwards, so they don't get surrounded.

Quote from: Nessaj on May 18, 2013, 12:51:14 pm
Can't just throw a real morale system in there, would take time etc.
Else sure, could give the Commander an aura which gives +1 morale when nearby, -1 when away, drop down below a certain number and the troops start retreating. Crude, but simple.

The easiest for the moment would be if a Commander dies, his troops loses a percentage of their total HP or Stats, which would be their drop in "morale".
Dying as a commander is not always something you can control. I don't think it should really do anything. I've seen Saxon get headshot from a 100 m away randomly. That your troops get split over the remaining commanders is enough of a penalty for that already. Dying is rarely actually your fault.

Flags are OP. Basically whichever team is closest to the flag spawn wins, because they can cap while being guarded by their infantry. I suggest increasing the time it takes to raise the flag by about a 100%, to actually make moving to the flag and fighting over it a valid tactic, instead of just losing as soon as you see that the enemy is closer to the spawn.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 18, 2013, 01:52:01 pm
Dying is never anyone's fault unless they're reckless? :P

There should be a penalty to dying, as it is now the whole thing is more of an team effort, 5v5, 6v6, and so on. Hence a commander dying should definitely effect the team (e.g. the troops from that commander) - not just that they're transferred to the next man in line. At the very minimum there should be a small 'debuff' applied to the troops, perhaps just a time based one or whatever, but something at least.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 18, 2013, 01:57:35 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on May 18, 2013, 12:51:14 pm
Can't just throw a real morale system in there, would take time etc.


Its been done in Native Expansion mod.

Truth be told, there is a lot of things to pick up from this mod.



Also the latest version of the SP, you can access an order tab with the backspace key : radar + whole lots of new orders (+ the old ones, but much easier to access, also can tell troops to hold X position by clicking on the radar map)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It increases tactics so much its not even funny
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Duster on May 18, 2013, 02:06:17 pm
Rhodoks can't lose unless they really fuck it up, nords are a tad underpowered because their infantry isn't fantastic like it should be. Still good fun!
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 02:12:19 pm
Quote from: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 12:45:08 pm
Hide behind your troops. Only give weak weapons.

I would love to have access to the backspace command menu you have in Warband singleplayer normally, gives you good overview and makes commanding so much easier.
I think having a mini map would ruin the surprise effect. It's much better for it to be like this.

Make nord scouts to be like a mounted infantry maybe. At the moment they are very weak, even on foot and mounted. I see they have javelins to throw but they fail to use it.

I'm not saying nord scouts should be powerful units, they must be used for supporting infantry or archers. But even when used for this purpose, they still fail.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Jarlek on May 18, 2013, 02:16:07 pm
I still find it funny how Sarranid archers got more armour than most infantry units :D

Great gamemode btw, me, panos, zlisch and teeth had great fun yesterday.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ulmarth on May 18, 2013, 02:21:07 pm
Someone just said you dnt fight in this mode.............so what do you do watch your AI fight?

I guess ill need to try it to see the fun.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 02:24:14 pm
I've read somewhere that sarranid archers were designed as ranged units with good melee capabilities comparably.

If you compare the armors, you'll have to take into account of rodok xbowmen shields too. Shield is a very good defense boost to AI.


I can modify with the stats a bit, but I'd like to hear others' opinions that are playing this mod. About what class should be like what and fulfill what role?

Example (my observation with the current nords):
Nords
Infantry - Strong shields, very good at melee, has throwing
Archers - Low rate of fire and overall not very useful. Can be only good when supporting infantry
Cavalry - Very weak, can be only useful as suicide troops to distract the enemy or flank the enemy to let the infantry come in. Has javelins but rarely makes use of them. Not good on foot either.

What I would do:
Infantry - Leave the same
Archers - Leave the same
Cavalry - Make them better skirmishers (throwing cavalry) and make them more like a cav/inf hybrid. So maybe they can use their horses to travel faster, and then dismount to fight on foot. Their armor will stay the same though, but with better shields and weapons.

I'd like to hear your opinions.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Kirman on May 18, 2013, 03:37:28 pm
It seems really fun so thanks for the mod. The only thing i've noticed is the troops(Infantry) are keeping too much distance between commander. I tried ''follow'' command to pull them and had to go right flank to bring them to the middle.

Edit: I played 2 or 3 times so ill test it more.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 03:47:07 pm
After going through the stats of nords, rhodoks and sarranids; some things I have noticed:

In general, ranged units has the best athletics values. Infantry has the second best, and of course cavalry has the third best athletics values.

Sarranids
-Have very good armors and weapons, but have very low power strike values. Their archers have 0 and their inf/cav has 3. What they lack in stats, they make up with their equipments though.
-Their units have lower athletics compared to nord and rhodoks.
-Their infantry and cavalry uses spears and one handed swords.
-Their archers' rate of fire is quite good too, and have good armor to keep them alive. Also they use barbed arrows, horn bows or nomad bows. Can spawn with a knockdown weapon.
-One thing to mention, their infantry can use jarids.

-What makes this faction good is their equipment mostly. They have very good armors, good weapons, their cavalry rides destriers and overall their unit setup can support each other nice.


Rhodoks
-Their crossbowmen are simply perfect. They use sniper crossbows, military picks, military hammers, medium armor and high tier pavise shields. They have 4 power strike, which is better than sarranid infantry. Looks a bit OP probably, but their weakness is their rate of fire and the required stationaryness of crossbows. Can be susceptible to cavalry charges (they eat nord scouts alive though).
-They have very strong infantry as well.
-Their cavalry has the same stats as nord scouts, but they use light lances instead of war spears  and they don't have javelins (hardly matters anyway).

-Seem like the best on paper, but they rely on stat strength  in my opinion. Their weakness is they have weak cavalry and vulnerable crossbowmen (while reloading, due to AI behaviour). Might be better than nords, but I believe they are evenly matched towards sarranids.

Nords
-They have very strong infantry, which can also use throwing weapons. They can spawn with a knockdown weapon.
-Their archers use longbows, but they don't have enough archery skill to handle those bows. They suffer highly from rate of fire and accuracy. They use long bows and bodkin arrows.
-Their archers can use two handed axes and have very good melee stats. What they lack in archery, they can make up in close quarters.
-Very weak cavalry.

-Less useful archers combined with very weak cavalry makes this faction only competent at infantry charges, which; in my opinion, is a very straightforward strategy. They have the potential of becoming a strong infantry faction, but pure infantry tactics are bound to lose without proper ranged or cavalry support in my opinion. I think the problem with them is, their units do not supplement each other.


Edit: Didn't play with vaegirs yet, but I can imagine the rage in khergit games. The thing is; khergit horse archers have 150 archery, vaegirs have 140 archery, sarranids have 130 archery and nords have 120 archery. (xbow wpf works a bit differently to compare)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 18, 2013, 03:49:43 pm
Why am I playing Nords vs Rhodoks all the time by the way? I have seen Sarranids quite a few times as well and Vaegirs once. Also, sometimes it weirdly stacks 4 against 6 players and that sort of crap.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 04:11:11 pm
There is one interesting thing I have found:

Every faction uses their face code, but sarranids use swadian face codes. (swadian_face_young_1, etc.)


Edit: Did anyone play with swadians, khergits or vaegirs so far? I have seen some interesting item usage: vaegir and swadian infantry have pikes in their item pools, and nomad bows for vaegir horseman. Seems interesting.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Drehar on May 18, 2013, 04:41:33 pm
Pro's
Large scale battles are fun

Con's
To win you wait for flags
Long matches make for bad multi's (This is why new siege is dead)
Repair costs
No custimization
No fighting

Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 18, 2013, 05:16:10 pm
we need to be able to play with our char ... BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO PAY THIS PLATE AGAIN !!   :wink:
2000 gold gone :/
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Smoothrich on May 18, 2013, 05:37:07 pm
Why the hell can't we use weapons, not even things we pick up?  Kills the mode.  I totally loved the Fire and Sword commander mode because I felt like a sergeant of a pro pikesquad or a captain leading cav charges from the front and it was rather immersive.  I don't even understand why holding a weapon is disabled?  That's what we play this game for, the combat engine, silly devs!
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 05:52:49 pm
Because one player can easily kill 20 or even more bots himself. It would totally move the focus away from the tactical game.

Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Panos on May 18, 2013, 06:03:52 pm
chadz, I have two questions

1. on the troop menu, ranged has WPF for all classes, but melee-cav has one tab that says wp_melee 

E.G

Quote
"swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai","Swadian Sharpshooter","Swadian Sharpshooters",tf_guarantee_ranged|tf_mounted|tf_guarantee_boots|tf_guarantee_armor|tf_guarantee_helmet,0,0,"fac_kingdom_1",
   ["itm_bolts","itm_arrows","itm_crossbow","itm_crossbow","itm_heavy_crossbow","itm_sword_medieval_b_small","itm_sword_medieval_a","itm_voulge","itm_tab_shield_heater_c",
    "itm_haubergeon","itm_sleeveless_mail_coat","itm_leather_boots","itm_mail_chausses","itm_kettle_hat","itm_helmet_with_neckguard","itm_leather_gloves"],
   str_14 | agi_10 | int_4 | cha_4|level(24),wp_one_handed (100) | wp_two_handed (100) | wp_polearm (100) | wp_archery (100) | wp_crossbow (120) | wp_throwing (100),knows_common|knows_power_draw_3|knows_ironflesh_1|knows_power_strike_1|knows_athletics_2,swadian_face_middle_1, swadian_face_older_2],
 

AND

["swadian_infantry_multiplayer_ai","Swadian Infantry","Swadian Infantry",tf_guarantee_all_wo_ranged,0,0,"fac_kingdom_1",
   ["itm_pike","itm_bastard_sword_a","itm_tab_shield_heater_c",
    "itm_studded_leather_coat","itm_ankle_boots","itm_flat_topped_helmet"],
   def_attrib|level(19),wp_melee(105),knows_common|knows_ironflesh_5|knows_shield_4|knows_power_strike_5|knows_athletics_4,swadian_face_middle_1, swadian_face_old_2],


Is this a code that affects all melee skills (1h, 2h and poles) or something else??

and


2. The names of their equipment , are the Native ones, or the c-rpg ones??


edited for grammar correction  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tibe on May 18, 2013, 06:09:06 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 18, 2013, 05:52:49 pm
Because one player can easily kill 20 or even more bots himself. It would totally move the focus away from the tactical game.
yea, but its painfully boring tbh. Nothing you can do about it thou. Its ze engine. I insanely loved the commander in NW. Cause charging like an insane commander there always ment you got shot in the face with a cannonball or turned into swish cheese, by a musketvolley. It was fun, tactical and you got to fight.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 18, 2013, 06:15:40 pm
def_attrib = str_7 | agi_5 | int_4 | cha_4
wp_melee = 1h/2h/polearm (but not exactly)
items are all from crpg
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 06:16:06 pm
Please keep the commanders like this, a real commander does not fight like a regular soldier. The best way I've seen this implemented so far.

panos, wp melee effects only melee wpfs. Isn't it obvious :P


One question though,

When customizing troops do we take into account of PD/wpf penalties, HA/wpf penalties, armor penalties and such? Also the arrows being used weight 10 kilos and have the same ammo?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Panos on May 18, 2013, 06:20:46 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 18, 2013, 06:15:40 pm
def_attrib = str_7 | agi_5 | int_4 | cha_4
wp_melee = 1h/2h/polearm (but not exactly)
items are all from crpg

Danke, gonna give it ago and try to balance the troops   :mrgreen:



Quote from: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 06:16:06 pm
panos, wp melee effects only melee wpfs. Isn't it obvious :P


Better being safe than sorry  :wink:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tydeus on May 18, 2013, 06:34:40 pm
Going to try and balance these factions out. Might be better to just create our own factions as suggested by Jacko. We have enough armor sets in crpg to come up with some custom themes. If that's the case, what are some themes people would be interested in(again, based only on what we already have in game)?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Thomek on May 18, 2013, 06:41:16 pm
Creating factions based on a pool of money would be interesting.. :) just sayin!

Or a hp vs armor pool.. I'm sure people would find "OP" combos quite fast, but then that could be balanced..
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Bjord on May 18, 2013, 07:14:31 pm
Quote from: Berethorn on May 18, 2013, 10:08:48 am
cool idea! would be fun if it would work properly like in NW. If you guys aren't already doing it, I'd suggest asking the devs of NW for some advice on how to do it.

also first!!!

I'd be ashamed for chadz if he ever asked anything from those cocksuckers at NW dev team. They have no taste for quality, no sense of direction. It's just a bunch of kiddies killing bots.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tom Cruise on May 18, 2013, 07:15:16 pm
From my experience this gametype is loads of fun and has tons of potential. Me and my friend used to play NW commander tons and would just fuck shit up.

Aside from working out bugs and fine tuning (as expected from being very early in its process still), the only thing I would want to add is a troop tree, with different tiers of units. For example if I were a Nord and I wanted ranged. I would want different options of ranged. Different options such as ranged that focuses on throwing, or ranged that focuses on bows.

Or for infantry I might want heavy huscarls with some throwing axes, a shield, and some form of melee, such as a sword or an axe. Or I could have heavy anti cav, infantry with no throwing and a spear, shield, and sword or axe.

Just needs a little variety :D
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Bjord on May 18, 2013, 07:17:30 pm
If you want NW, go play NW.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tom Cruise on May 18, 2013, 07:24:04 pm
Quote from: Bjord on May 18, 2013, 07:17:30 pm
If you want NW, go play NW.

It has nothing to do with wanting it to be NW.....NW was just the first prominent Commander mode for a warband mod, so its a good basis to build from.

All I was asking for was some form of a troop tree. (which the native singleplayer has, which this gametype is based off of)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 07:27:54 pm
Here's my try:

-Reduced Rhodok Sharphooter's stats.  It is still decent in melee, but lowered it's power strike and athletics. Also no ironflesh, since they have their gigantic shields as armor. They still use sniper crossbow though.
-Changed armor of Rhodok Sergeants to padded cloth, they are not sergeants anymore but veteran spearmen instead.

-Increased nord scouts' athletics and throwing capabilities. They are better on foot now and a bit more reliable skirmishers (if you can even get to use their throwing). Same applies for Rhodok Scouts, (other than throwing) since they mimic the stats of nord scouts.

-Riding of Sarranid horsemen increased to 5, which was 4 before. I think it wasn't making any sense even crappy nord and rhodok cavalry had 5 riding while sarranid cavalry had 4 riding.

-Lowered the archery of khergit horse archers, they had 150 wpf. Which means they would have a faster fire rate compared to ground archers; wasn't making much sense.

(click to show/hide)


Vaegirs, khergits and swadians are unchanged; because I never played with them. The servers never seem to open any of those. Nord, rodok, sarranid all day.

By the way, I agree some more variety could bring a lot. The types coming to my mind are: Heavy cavalry, light cavalry, skirmishers (throwers), horse archers, light infantry, heavy infantry, archers, archer/inf, infantry/throwing, crossbowmen...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 18, 2013, 07:59:21 pm
I still believe there can be a compromise found between no weapons and hero mode.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: ARN_ on May 18, 2013, 08:21:08 pm
Would be fun to be able to fight :D
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Michael on May 18, 2013, 08:36:31 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 18, 2013, 09:58:53 am

So, due to bad luck, we are running two strong servers parallel for a few weeks. Instead of just pay for it with no gain,



Why not a high noon super bright daylight native-like battle server instead?

On Eu4, its night for 500 years now.
So apparently its possible to take one server out of the weather-time-circle.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 11:30:14 pm
Well I'd be really appreciated if zlisch would explained what he didn't like. Thinking/playing on something all day only to see some douchebag minused your work is a bit disappointing.

About the rhodoks part, their symbol is a crossbow not a spear. They were famed for their massive crossbow fire, which was supported by spears and pikes against cavalry charges. Since the ai can't handle spears well, they were armed with one handed weapons mostly. To be honest, their infantry were pretty much the same as nord veterans. But you can't have the best of both worlds. Having the best infantry and the best archers was simply too much, not to mention those archers were also making very formidable infantry. So I changed their infantry to be units designed to support their crossbowmen, just like that nord archers were designed to be supporting nord infantry. It's not like they are very weak. They still have their gigantic shields and superior stats (7 ironflesh).

The rhodok cavalry was sharing the same stats as nord cavalry, so when I changed nord cav a tiny bit; I also changed rodok cavalry to not play with the balance further.

Edit: it says that in the new patch, they added swadia and vaegir. I will look into those too.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Kuujis on May 18, 2013, 11:37:11 pm
Just FYI - Nord Scouts are a waste of units.  :?

TERRIBAD! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 18, 2013, 11:47:41 pm
No I disagree. They are just worse than the other units, that means bring less cavalry if you're nord or rhodok. But it's not like you can not find a good use for them. I personally had great success using them as a distraction. Just make them charge to break enemy formations and watch your archers peppering down the enemy with arrows. Because once the enemy is engaged in melee combat, they can't use their shields properly. After all, they were designed to support your other troops. Don't use them as you use sarranid cavalry and you won't be disappointed.

Also one thing to not forget, they have the speed and manuever of a horse so they can be more swift compared to your foot units.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 18, 2013, 11:57:16 pm
I just can't understand why can't we fight with our char ... if we are smarter than bots (I hope), bots can have more IF , ATHL, RIDING , ... And I never saw a guy who beaten more than 10 units in the same time on open field ...

And ... plates are too expensive, as courser , so , there is another reason to let players play with their stats ..

We almost pay everything because the battle 200 vs 200 because of the time ... So , that's unfair with new players.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 12:00:40 am
They fixed upkeep.

And believe me, being able to fight would ruin to point of the gamemode. It will basically be a rat race.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 19, 2013, 12:04:56 am
 :shock: I paid at least 15 k this day ... only on commander server  :wink:

And, even if players are smarter than bots , how can they beat tincans without exploiting a bug on Dtv ?  :)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on May 19, 2013, 12:59:44 am
would it be possibel too make commanders abel too place some Stacks and Siege Shields?Would be a great add
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 01:00:39 am
I always liked playing like this in native, reckon I'll have to try it.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 19, 2013, 01:12:18 am
But that's sad , because in native , you really lead your troops, whereas here, you just have to hope they won't make bullshits like tks , or being beaten down by archers ^^
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Lannistark on May 19, 2013, 01:13:01 am
Commonly Suggested | Relevant Ideas:

Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Mr.K. on May 19, 2013, 01:30:24 am
Quote from: Lannistark on May 19, 2013, 01:13:01 am
Commonly Suggested | Relevant Ideas:

  • Give weapons to players, allow them to fight, even if only the other player (Give a reduction in damage dealt by player to balance this)
  • Enemy commander's death brings a significant negative impact on enemy troops or even round losing

You know what that brings, don't u? All hail the king of Commander Mode, the mighty Royanss. So no, no weapons.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tydeus on May 19, 2013, 01:53:57 am
We're going to be redoing the factions with something community related, and a lot more fun. Check out the following thread for details. http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/community-faction-design-contest-commander-mode/msg786919/#msg786919
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tibe on May 19, 2013, 07:13:03 am
How about the commanders do 50% less damage with their weapons in commandermode than they would in other gamemode so that charing bots would be more dangerous.
Im sorry, im totally spitballing here, I like the mode, I get why commanders not fighting is the best move, but I really want bit more action is all.... Watching bots fight in melee in M&B is not much of a spectacle. I dunno, mybe its just me being an unintelligent oaf.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Sniger on May 19, 2013, 10:01:06 am
why not give players all 3 classes at their disposal? so a player control army consisting of both inf range and cav instead of just 1 class. this will give more diversity in terms of team/player tactics. when a player join, player select faction (and not just class) to control and then the player will be given a fixed amount of each class of the selected faction. then perhaps some teams shouldnt be possible to pair say for examble sarranid and nord

i like the mode too! its like totally warband singleplayer multiplayer :D
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Jacko on May 19, 2013, 10:19:13 am
Quote from: Sniger on May 19, 2013, 10:01:06 am
why not give players all 3 classes at their disposal? so a player control army consisting of both inf range and cav instead of just 1 class. this will give more diversity in terms of team/player tactics. when a player join, player select faction (and not just class) to control and then the player will be given a fixed amount of each class of the selected faction. then perhaps some teams shouldnt be possible to pair say for examble sarranid and nord

i like the mode too! its like totally warband singleplayer multiplayer :D

Just tick in the other boxes for the classes and your bots will be divided between them. Choose Melee and Ranged? Get 50% of each.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Wiltzu on May 19, 2013, 10:24:25 am
It was kinda fun, until I realized that you can't do tactics within this community. If you play it with few friends it could be a lot of fun. Still though, maybe not my cup of tea.


Also I noticed that everytime I spawned I had around 97%-98% health, never 100%. I think this is cause every player has same stats in this gamemode, but I have in the actual c-rpg little higher health. Can anyone confirm this?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on May 19, 2013, 10:27:35 am
Quote from: Wiltzu on May 19, 2013, 10:24:25 am
Also I noticed that everytime I spawned I had around 97%-98% health, never 100%. I think this is cause every player has same stats in this gamemode, but I have in the actual c-rpg little higher health. Can anyone confirm this?

confirmed
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 10:46:40 am
Quote from: Algarn_of_Nord on May 19, 2013, 01:12:18 am
But that's sad , because in native , you really lead your troops, whereas here, you just have to hope they won't make bullshits like tks , or being beaten down by archers ^^

Wait, the bots have melee FF turned on? That should really be removed if it's the case, they're simply too stupid for it.

If it's only ranged FF like in native then it's fine, just means you have to position your archers right.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 11:34:20 am
Commanders using weapons works great in NW. I really don't see the issue  :|
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Wiltzu on May 19, 2013, 11:54:41 am
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 11:34:20 am
Commanders using weapons works great in NW. I really don't see the issue  :|

The bots seem to be (at least IMO) more restarted retarded in warband.


Fucking nokia autocorrect...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Panos on May 19, 2013, 12:04:49 pm
Quote from: Wiltzu on May 19, 2013, 11:54:41 am
The bots seem to be (at least IMO) more restarted in warband.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 19, 2013, 12:09:59 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 11:34:20 am
Commanders using weapons works great in NW. I really don't see the issue  :|

Using your own char with weapons in Commander mode is like being able to strike individual troops in Total War with lightning.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Molly on May 19, 2013, 12:16:37 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 11:34:20 am
Commanders using weapons works great in NW. I really don't see the issue  :|

Quote from: Mr.K. on May 19, 2013, 01:30:24 am
You know what that brings, don't u? All hail the king of Commander Mode, the mighty Royanss. So no, no weapons.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 19, 2013, 12:26:01 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 19, 2013, 12:09:59 pm
Using your own char with weapons in Commander mode is like being able to strike individual troops in Total War with lightning.
This is true, it would remove all focus from maneuvering and tactics and shift the focus to who can strike down the most troops in the least time. The simple fact that the only way you can influence the battle is by your commanding pretty much makes the mode. Actually you can influence the battle by bumping. I have actually won one round solely through bumping. It came down to like an 8 vs 15 and my 8 won due to me keeping them together and consistently bumping anyone who attacked them. That is more than enough, any addition of weapons makes you too large a force for tactics to matter. Can we get some more protection from ranged though? Rhodok sharpshooters at a 100 m distance, hit my horse twice, hit me twice, and I'm dead. I lead my cavalry in a charge at sharpshooters, bam shot in the head, my cavalry derps out. Kinda ruins the entire round. A shield perhaps?

Has anything been done to flags with the hotfix? Flags are too easy to cap, which basically means that the army that is closest to the flag wins, because it only takes about a minute to raise it and if your troops are a 100 m further away than the enemies, you lose. There is basically no fight on the flag, it's just whoever gets there first. Which has lead me to always take the center of the map as my position, with some success, but I think it would be more fun to have a flag that takes at least twice as long to cap, so you actually have time to use your troops to battle over control over the flag.

Edit: Nevermind, the flags spawn in between the two teams, excellent.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Royans on May 19, 2013, 12:42:18 pm
- A bigger timer at start would be appreciate imo, u need more time to talk with ppl about what to take as troops and strategy

- Banner balance to play with ur friend while on Teamspeak  would be a big +1. ( Still i know ppl gonna QQ about this, but thats the point, its a fucking teamplay mod, maybe even more than  crpg itself, and its not about personal fighting skill )

- A commander without troops should get "stun" or "kill" something like that, i nearly lose a battle ( i had still 40+ troops, he had nothing left exept his own horse to run ), flag were really far from my troops, and this battle ended as the first one who would reach the flag to win. he could have won this, even if i had won the battle, just because he could have reach the flag before ( just for 1s would have been enough ) , and no any way to fight him there.

- And please, please, please, delete those fully mountain map or at least reduce the number of it in the rotation, there's nothing more enjoyable than a big battle on plain. Mountain in this mod is just about the one who's gonna reach it the top first and wait, its just shit...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tibe on May 19, 2013, 12:49:08 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 11:34:20 am
Commanders using weapons works great in NW. I really don't see the issue  :|
They dont use Melee in NW(much) and its more straightforward. But in Warband/crpg melee is a huge portion of the game. In NW a ramboing commander gets shot in the face by a musketvolley, also the melee is rather more raw there(mainly 2d, due to muskets having 2d meleeattacks), the lack of skills the bots posess dont show as often. Here however Backpedalramboing results in you killing most of the other teams bots without much effort. You die alot more unexpectedly in NW cause you never know which of the 100 bots infront of you has a loaded musket that could kill you in one shot.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Lannistark on May 19, 2013, 12:59:32 pm
Thing is in napoleonic wars melee is not as important. You basically have linebattles in which you get involved with a rifle, which is far more fun as you command the firing orders of the bots. You feel like a true Napoleon in the game.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Latvian on May 19, 2013, 01:01:53 pm
NW has better comander mode indeeed, bots are so stupd here, they turn their backs to archers only cuz cavalry comes from other side and is a little bit closer
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Polobow on May 19, 2013, 01:11:37 pm
I agree with no weapons. It's just how the mode should work.

I like how you can involve yourself, helping your troops by bumping enemy soldiers. It's a bit risky, but it does help your team, even if by a little. A nice risk/reward choice.

If people want more survivability, why not add the nudge feature? You can stun bots, giving you time to move away, or perhaps even use it to kill it by keeping it stunned, so that your own soldiers can kill it.


We can also use those advanced commands. Formations, telling them what kind of weapons they should use, etc. Is that possible?

Oh, and the backspace map for Native? Can we disable seeing the enemy troops on that map, so we can still use it for tactics?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:11:50 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 19, 2013, 12:09:59 pm
Using your own char with weapons in Commander mode is like being able to strike individual troops in Total War with lightning.

Not really. Limit people's stats somewhat and hand them a weapon. Medieval commanders often did fight in their own battles.

Quote from: Teeth on May 19, 2013, 12:26:01 pm
This is true, it would remove all focus from maneuvering and tactics and shift the focus to who can strike down the most troops in the least time. The simple fact that the only way you can influence the battle is by your commanding pretty much makes the mode. Actually you can influence the battle by bumping. I have actually won one round solely through bumping. It came down to like an 8 vs 15 and my 8 won due to me keeping them together and consistently bumping anyone who attacked them. That is more than enough, any addition of weapons makes you too large a force for tactics to matter. Can we get some more protection from ranged though? Rhodok sharpshooters at a 100 m distance, hit my horse twice, hit me twice, and I'm dead. I lead my cavalry in a charge at sharpshooters, bam shot in the head, my cavalry derps out. Kinda ruins the entire round. A shield perhaps?

Has anything been done to flags with the hotfix? Flags are too easy to cap, which basically means that the army that is closest to the flag wins, because it only takes about a minute to raise it and if your troops are a 100 m further away than the enemies, you lose. There is basically no fight on the flag, it's just whoever gets there first. Which has lead me to always take the center of the map as my position, with some success, but I think it would be more fun to have a flag that takes at least twice as long to cap, so you actually have time to use your troops to battle over control over the flag.

Edit: Nevermind, the flags spawn in between the two teams, excellent.

I disagree. In NW it doesn't end up like that. By far the best way of getting a high KDR in NW commander mode is taking arty and shooting all the lines to pieces. But very few people do it because they don't give a crap about their score as all bot kills/deaths go in the scoreboard. The fact that would even be a reason for doing that in CRPG is indicative of the community some what.

Besides, you have a high chance of taking a bunch of xbow bolts or arrows if you just charge around trying to kill people.

I simply see no harm in handing someone a sword in this.

Anyway other things I've noticed are:

- Motf...not sure about this. Whilst it does spawn at the half way point it often leads to the inevitable, charge all bots and try and get to the flag situation. Which entirely detracts from this mode.
- Longer spawn time. By the time it tells you how many people have picked what, you've pretty much missed the spawn.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 01:19:13 pm
Maybe simply because dying has no real effect, but taking down 15 troops of the enemy before you die will have a vast effect?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:21:39 pm
Hence why I said limit the stats people have a bit. I just feel having no weapon at all both looks stupid and feels stupid.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 01:22:17 pm
Your mind and your commands are your weapons.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:23:51 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 01:22:17 pm
Your mind and your commands are your weapons.

All very well if the bots weren't utterly retarded. But this mode isn't exactly rocket science and currently is largely down to which faction you happen to get.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Lannistark on May 19, 2013, 01:30:11 pm
Change the system so it's not like in native where a team is forced to pick this, that and that. Create classes or whatever that can only be picked once by each player.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 01:30:50 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:21:39 pm
I just feel having no weapon at all both looks stupid and feels stupid.

And the rest of us feel it would be even more stupid if you could kill enemy bots. You can disagree, but you can't really argue.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:44:43 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 19, 2013, 01:30:50 pm
And the rest of us feel it would be even more stupid if you could kill enemy bots. You can disagree, but you can't really argue.

Looking through the thread there are plenty of people who agree with me  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tibe on May 19, 2013, 01:46:42 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:23:51 pm
All very well if the bots weren't utterly retarded. But this mode isn't exactly rocket science and currently is largely down to which faction you happen to get.
Its currently in the testing. As in there is more great things to come I presume.

But honestly, I really dont see promise in this game mode, not with this gameengine anyway. Imo this time and resource could have been used to improve conquest or make fortress mode happen or something like that. And here is why:

 Commanding in Total War is fun cause there is always a spectacle and troops are easly controllable. M&B has a complex meleecombatsystem, which is good for PvP but utterly shit for Ai fighting. There is no person on the planet that could code a proper Ai for M&B.  The whole shiny point of Warband and why it was popular in the first place was due to the fact that you were in the action, not some dude ontop of a horse in plate scratching his bum and yelling braindead troops to walk forward.  I wouldnt say anything bad if the Ai was good and stuff would be interesting. But its not. When the Ai clash it turns into a massive clusterfuck thats really not even entertaining anymore, due to the fact I bet most of us have played campaign of atleast like 15 different mods... Do any of you see any promise in this at all? Like entertainmentvalue for more than 1 month tops? I mean we could get the customizable troop trees and other stuff but would that really add anything to the mod in general? MW is an exception, it has different sellingpoints, that somewhat work for Ai.
I mean its a good change of pase yea, but is there any point of having the mod at all if you just get bored after like 1 hour of playing? I personally am extremely bored after 15 minutes...I dont feel like I accomplished a damn thing when my team wins, even if my squad kicked most ass.

Is it just me?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 01:50:09 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 01:44:43 pm
Looking through the thread there are plenty of people who agree with me  :rolleyes:

Same applies to them. "You" is also plural. It's pointless to argue, this is a fundamental difference in opinion.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Thomek on May 19, 2013, 01:50:19 pm
I actually believe commanders could and should fight.. But only with GREAT risk.

If you die, your troops flee. Also, there should not be possible to be a lancer or even sword and board cav.

Perhaps the armor should be some kind of rich mans outfit? It's just a question of getting the risk of combat high enough. Heck even bumping enemy bots have some power already..

Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 02:00:47 pm
Why not mimic whats in NW (again) ?


In NW, everyone wears tissue armor (no armor, bullets and swords mostly one shot).

Give the commander a very light (but cool looking) armor, and he will stay away from the fight due to being ridiculously easy to kill (also will lower repair cost which is astounding in Commander Mode).
Give him a simple one-handed sword so he can defend himself and kill a few bots but very light armor + average short 1H = you're no hero.

This + the Backspace Order Panel and you get a mode where you can :

- position your troops accurately
- give multiple orders at a glance
- have some personal action
- fear death


Since other commanders would have weapons, you have to protect yourself from them by staying around friendly bots.
Atm you can ride around the map freely, you can only fear a stray shot to the head.

You often encounter enemy commanders and you can only fist pump them, there is no fear in "meeting the enemy". If everyone has a sharp tool at their disposal you could see some Epic Duel that would have a big impact on the battlefield (forcing the enemy bots into fewer and fewer alive commanders's hands to minimize their capacity to do tactics, or find some other penalty when the commander dies).



Then, like chadz, I agree that its a big risk to add weapons due to humans knowing their way around the AI capacity to defend himself...

But I'm sure that we can find a counter-weight to that, or just learn to use the AI to counter such an offensive capacity (I love focusing archer fire on unwary commanders...).
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 19, 2013, 02:06:17 pm
No weapons.
I understand why some of you like it, but maybe this is just not the gamemode for it.
What the game turns into when people have weapons:

People rush, try to kill a few bots right at spawn. Other commanders now have to try to kill other players to defend their bots. The whole focus moves away from the commanding, and instead on "who can use his own skills to shift the favor in his side". It would be battle with a few players and 300 bots. That's not the point of it. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, or that it would be a bad gamemode. Just not what this gamemode is about.

So no, weapons will never be part of it. It's simply not your gamemode then. Try DTV.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 02:11:01 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 19, 2013, 01:50:19 pm
I actually believe commanders could and should fight.. But only with GREAT risk.

If you die, your troops flee. Also, there should not be possible to be a lancer or even sword and board cav.

Perhaps the armor should be some kind of rich mans outfit? It's just a question of getting the risk of combat high enough. Heck even bumping enemy bots have some power already..

Either that or native campaign where dying makes them all auto charge pretty much screwing up any tactical play.

Quote from: chadz on May 19, 2013, 02:06:17 pm
No weapons.
I understand why some of you like it, but maybe this is just not the gamemode for it.
What the game turns into when people have weapons:

People rush, try to kill a few bots right at spawn. Other commanders now have to try to kill other players to defend their bots. The whole focus moves away from the commanding, and instead on "who can use his own skills to shift the favor in his side". It would be battle with a few players and 300 bots. That's not the point of it. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, or that it would be a bad gamemode. Just not what this gamemode is about.

So no, weapons will never be part of it. It's simply not your gamemode then. Try DTV.

Out of curiosity where have you seen this happen? Because I've rarely seen that the case. I certainly understand the theory but my experience of other commander modes has never been anything remotely like that.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 02:13:07 pm
Quote from: Thomek on May 19, 2013, 01:50:19 pm
Heck even bumping enemy bots have some power already..

I actually think that if possible the bots should be set to be immune to bumps by players, and maybe even to completely ignore players unless they're in the flag zone. It's indeed quite easy to influence the battle by distracting them.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 02:16:09 pm
Then I suggest a special commander horse that does 0 bump damage and/or rears each time he encounters an obstacle.
Since you can also use bots's horses, would be cool if it was possible that whatever horse you pick, you still got these horses "nerf" on your player; so you have really 0 tool to influence the outcome of the battle.
(click to show/hide)


Also the repair bill is a bit high, I dont know for others but I would gladly exchange the gothic plate and 2K5 bill; for a light armor and the probable chance to get one shot (this would remove most of the drawing fire/charge to your commander by moving around enemies bots).



Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 02:16:53 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 19, 2013, 02:13:07 pm
I actually think that if possible the bots should be set to be immune to bumps by players, and maybe even to completely ignore players unless they're in the flag zone. It's indeed quite easy to influence the battle by distracting them.

Very easy. You can lead almost an entire unit away by making them follow you.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on May 19, 2013, 02:21:22 pm
I like the suggestion of 1 minute of scouting the map and figuring out a tactic with the other commanders.

So your bots spawn after 1 minute and then the battle starts, but before that you can run around with your horse and scout the map and talk to your commander mates.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 02:23:20 pm
Spam mode activated :

Backspace Order Panel is copyrighted or can we hope to see it soon ?  :P
Without the radar if possible, that ruins the surprise element of most battle...

But having a map where you can click "hold position there" is a definite win.
Sometimes you cant be with your commander where you want your troops to hold.
Then I can understand that having to move your commander accordingly to where you want to lead your troops is one of the biggest skill that this commander mode requires.

Only problem is, when you lead multiple troops type, you cant do it efficiently if you need to move them all at once, limiting the "arc" of strategies a bit.
With the current orders possibilities, it is BEST to focus one troop type and to play it very well with other players.
Question would be then : do we want to buff one-troop type commander or allow multiple troops type commander fights to defend themselves as well as the rest ?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 02:25:40 pm
Why do you want backspace to get implemented, I personally find it game breaking and never use it in singleplayer. Of course I do not hold any grudge against it in singleplayer, since it is a sandbox gamemode there. In multiplayer however, if you implement a perfect radar; it would be unwise to not use it.

I believe it is more challenging to depend on your own eyes and observations during the battlefield. You are the commander after all, not a superhuman who can have the full picture of the battlefield. It makes it both more realistic and challenging (in a very good way).
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 19, 2013, 02:27:50 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 02:25:40 pm
Why do you want backspace to get implemented, I personally find it game breaking and never use it in singleplayer. Of course I do not hold any grudge against it in singleplayer, since it is a sandbox gamemode there. In multiplayer however, if you implement a perfect radar; it would be unwise to not use it.

I believe it is more challenging to depend on your own eyes and observations during the battlefield. You are the commander after all, not a superhuman who can have the full picture of the battlefield. It makes it both more realistic and challenging (in a very good way).

Well he did say without the radar. I could agree with that because hiding cavalry and stuff is a great tactic for this mode.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 02:28:52 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 02:25:40 pm
I believe it is more challenging to depend on your own eyes and observations during the battlefield.

I agree, but there is room for improvement on this matter.

Also a "blank map" (without allies or enemies position or topography) would give only the "hold position there" possibility without giving any insight of whats happening on the battlefield at all; you will still have to rely on what you see yourself !  :D
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: tkn123 on May 19, 2013, 03:03:19 pm
I think an important issue is the combat effectiveness of the Nord scouts. They basically lose against everyone.
There only use would be to run down fleeing soldiers like in total war as there useless at everything else.
Could you implement 'flee the battlefield' like what happens on native?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 19, 2013, 04:34:32 pm
Give commanders champion courser, plain soldiers have spirited destriers and I have plain courser? Outrage!
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 04:51:47 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 19, 2013, 04:34:32 pm
Give commanders champion courser, plain soldiers have spirited destriers and I have plain courser? Outrage!

Or at least give us champion sumpter horse (or donkey?) !  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 19, 2013, 05:36:18 pm
and do sth with fuckers camping hills and waiting for flag every fucking round....  :evil:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: chadz on May 19, 2013, 05:41:16 pm
right now, the flags are spawned between all surviving bots - maybe it would be better to spawn the flags right between both starting points, so it would be in every teams interest to cover the same ground
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 05:44:42 pm
The problem with that is that it would give a huge advantage to whichever team spawned in a better position relative to the flag point. Flags and camping wouldn't be such an issue in the first place if the map generation was better.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on May 19, 2013, 05:56:45 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 19, 2013, 05:44:42 pm
The problem with that is that it would give a huge advantage to whichever team spawned in a better position relative to the flag point. Flags and camping wouldn't be such an issue in the first place if the map generation was better.

One easy fix for this could be to use random steppe only. They generally have less of those insanely mountainous maps as random plains.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Rumblood on May 19, 2013, 06:19:18 pm
Quote from: RamsesXXIIX on May 19, 2013, 05:56:45 pm
One easy fix for this could be to use random steppe only. They generally have less of those insanely mountainous maps as random plains.

Which makes no sense!

Plains: An extensive, relatively level area of land.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 19, 2013, 06:20:02 pm
One more thing, after death of all troops their commander should die immediately. Currently some guys though they have no troops run away and delay, because they have multi (or because they are retards). I know that there's flag, but if all commanders on one side are dead, their troops will not take a flag, but will follow this one guy whos alive.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Aethelwolf on May 19, 2013, 07:02:17 pm
give us a wooden sword (1h) and since archers and else wpf oriented people would be complaining, give everyone 80 wpf. It is not that much for you to change the result of the battle but you can at least have some more fun.

EDIT: Also, lower the armor
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 19, 2013, 07:04:09 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 19, 2013, 06:20:02 pm
One more thing, after death of all troops their commander should die immediately. Currently some guys though they have no troops run away and delay, because they have multi (or because they are retards). I know that there's flag, but if all commanders on one side are dead, their troops will not take a flag, but will follow this one guy whos alive.


Saw one battle where almost all commanders were alive but only 2 bots green team and 1 bot red team.... was funny to see  :lol:
But I agree with you, it delays the round when the commander is alive and not his troops...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: FleetFox on May 19, 2013, 07:22:08 pm
I would just like to say I have been playing this mode a fair bit this weekend and am thoroughly enjoying it! Cheers, great idea
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 19, 2013, 07:22:27 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 18, 2013, 11:01:55 pm
chadz:
= Commander mode =
fix (?) bug where multiple ticks occur
disable repair
disable valor
make commander die when all troops dead
add commanders kill/death on bot success
new troops for commander mode (c) Tydeus
spawn motf between all agents
make hills flatter
made vaegirs and swadia available
All the red things are lies, at least in the server I played on.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 19, 2013, 07:22:36 pm
ok, I don't know why did you done this , but now , rhodoks are UP against swadians ... they have 20 body armor ALL against heavy inf and cav ... balance this again please ...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 19, 2013, 09:35:46 pm
Algarn maybe you're deciding too quickly?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 10:20:05 pm
There's a lot of other type of commander modes for MNB -- I've played like 4 or something -- and in none of those have I ever seen a Commander chase the other teams bots or commanders, not once. Especially in the Napoleonic Wars DLC, where you as a Commander both have projectile weapons and excellent swords available. Never experienced a single issue ever.

Not once.

In all of those mods you die from basically one melee hit though, where-as with ranged hits you usually take less damage to diminish the randomness of a out of the blue headshot.

All Commanders have cloth armors. CRPG Commander is the only one I've seen with plate/high-end armor.



IMO, I think it is equally silly to ride around bumping bots and kiting, as to just having a weapon.

At the moment in CC (8-)) people ride around bumping each others bots 24/7, kiting, fist bumping across factions and what not.

All that would stop if there was a real chance of the Commander dying, which there isn't at all at the moment except for getting caught or random headshot.



Give Commanders cloth armor and a 1 handed weapon in mid end.

I say let's test it, if it doesn't work, sure no problem remove it, else let us at least see if it works better, just for a short while. It works great in the other mods out there so why not here.

At the very least let's get rid of the plate armor to discourage people bumping and kiting.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 10:28:58 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 10:20:05 pm
Give Commanders cloth armor and a 1 handed weapon in mid end.

I wouldn't want them to have weapons because I can guarantee you there would be some (not all, but probably still plenty) players who would aggressively chase enemy commanders and/or pick off bots when convenient, and I simply can't be bothered to deal with that. You say it wouldn't happen? Then why even enable weapons?

However, I'd be fine with giving the commanders weaker armour and squishier horses. It would look a bit ridiculous to have peasants commanding the armies, but I'd still be happy to see the bumping behavior go. You could also just make the default armour look impressive but have shit stats.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 10:40:51 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 19, 2013, 10:28:58 pm
I wouldn't want them to have weapons because I can guarantee you there would be some (not all, but probably still plenty) players who would aggressively chase enemy commanders and/or pick off bots when convenient, and I simply can't be bothered to deal with that. You say it wouldn't happen? Then why even enable weapons?

You can guarantee? Based on what, your experience in said other commander modes? Some valid examples here please. If you've seen this happen plentiful, sure then, you win.
I've just played those I could find, mostly the official Napoleonic Wars one, and I've never seen anyone charge out with their commander to slay bots. Because simply they would die.

All that matters is that you at least have something. Not having something takes away from the whole feel overall.

There's other measures so people don't charge off once troops dead, since commander would die, and with squishy armor there's even less incentive to charge out.


Would a few bots die? Maybe one or two, three max. More already die to horse bumping at the moment.

As long as the weapon is very slow, e.g. feels super heavy, and doesn't do too much damage, there's no issue here, which is exactly how it works in the other mods.
You can't fight multiple bots, it is already hard enough fighting one due to the weapon being slow, but at least you can fight instead of just standing there trying to throw high fives.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 10:54:43 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 10:40:51 pm
You can guarantee? Based on what, your experience in said other commander modes? Some valid examples here please. If you've seen this happen plentiful, sure then, you win.

First of all: knowing this community and people in general, I think that's enough to guarantee it. Second, it happened all the time whenever we tried to organize bot commander matches on Native. It was a huge struggle to keep people from doing it even when we'd agreed on it as a house rule, I shudder to think how bad it would be if it was actually allowed.

Even if it was worked out so that commanders would have to be suicidal to go near enemy bots (which I don't think is possible given the AI), I still wouldn't want to have to worry about some dickhead trying to ninja me from behind when I'm focused on giving orders to my troops.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 19, 2013, 11:08:58 pm
I am prophetic genius. Only took you guys a year!
http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/crpg-style-commander-battle/
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 11:10:37 pm
Quote from: okiN on May 19, 2013, 10:54:43 pm
First of all: knowing this community and people in general, I think that's enough to guarantee it. Second, it happened all the time whenever we tried to organize bot commander matches on Native. It was a huge struggle to keep people from doing it even when we'd agreed on it as a house rule, I shudder to think how bad it would be if it was actually allowed.

Even if it was worked out so that commanders would have to be suicidal to go near enemy bots (which I don't think is possible given the AI), I still wouldn't want to have to worry about some dickhead trying to ninja me from behind when I'm focused on giving orders to my troops.

If someone can ninja you in the back the weapon they have isn't bad enough, but sure, if it happens then suddenly it is about surviving some idiot via fighting rather than commanding, which should never happen.
I'll take no weapons over that scenario any day, but I'd rather work towards solving that issue than "having no weapon" being final. Else go go invisible/flying commander :wink:

Only allowing horses for cavalry commanders would help that a bit, though obviously the trolls would just go cav then, plus they'd start bumping commanders without horses (already happens).

A few ways to alleviate the issue:
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 19, 2013, 11:25:42 pm
Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 11:10:37 pm
If someone can ninja you in the back the weapon they have isn't bad enough

You were talking about mid-range 1h weapons and cloth armour. In that scenario they could take me down in one or two hits.

Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 11:10:37 pm
Only allowing horses for cavalry commanders would help that a bit

I think it would leave you too vulnerable to enemy bots, on top of making it much harder to command effectively.

Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 11:10:37 pm
Add ~2/3/4 bots who follow the commander around as a guard unit. Fast attackers so they can kill a commander easily, but little armor so normal units butcher them. Anything to balance.

I bet some heroes would still try to fight them, and occasionally win.

Quote from: Nessaj on May 19, 2013, 11:10:37 pm
Bots auto-fire at commanders if within specific range (pretty sure they do this in NW)

This would make it really easy to draw their fire away from your own bots, they're bad with moving targets so survivability probably wouldn't be too low.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Bjord on May 19, 2013, 11:32:14 pm
What about the player controlling the movement input of the guard bots with a slight delay? You'd be surrounded by them, giving you live shields.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on May 19, 2013, 11:55:47 pm
I doesent see the point why so many peeps complaining about weopenless Commanders.You are already busy enuff with micromanaging your Troops even if u just got 1 Trooptype under control.
I think all Commanders should control atleast 2 Types of different Troops then u wont have much time too go too Melee anyway...
Bumps should be disabeled aswell because the Fun part of this Mod ,is obvisously too command your Army with your actual Character.
I got the same opinion about a Minimap ,it drives away the Focus of the Mod which is obvisously commanding your Bots with limited ("realistic") Possibylits.
That the Bots AI is Crap anyway is a point that doesent matter..U know what they capabel of and what not so u gotta use what u got too win against your Foe....
 
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 20, 2013, 01:00:29 am
Quote from: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on May 19, 2013, 11:55:47 pm
I doesent see the point why so many peeps complaining about weopenless Commanders.You are already busy enuff with micromanaging your Troops even if u just got 1 Trooptype under control.

When you become experienced, it wont be as hard to manage and you will have a lot of free time on your hand, I guarantee you !  :)
Still very busy you're right, but could do with more "way to play".





Btw pro-tip (discovered by me & zlisch):

- maintaining F1 gives the selected unit the order to hold position where you're aiming
- pressing 1 / 2 / 3 (unit selection) while maintaining shift gives you the possibility to give an order to multiple troop type at once
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: SoA_Sir_ODHarry on May 20, 2013, 01:49:15 am
well most of the time u can make ur Bots more efficent when u keep them close togehter in a Blob and not let them get spread , makes Inf much more effiecent like micromanage ur Cav
too make them chargin with high Speed again and again or get ur ranged too shoot in the Rear of the Enemy Inf .The more u focus at that the better the Result gonna be.
So its a Huge differnence if one controlls 1 or more than 1 Trooptype.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Sultan Eren on May 20, 2013, 02:21:47 am
1- Let us fight by self.
2- Balancing native troops is unnecessary and hard; therefore give all players the same kind of soldiers.
3- Give all players the same amount of archers,cav and inf.

Otherwise it's shitty.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Arthur_ on May 20, 2013, 07:13:58 am
I was playing the whole day yesterday and I and some other people  agreed that Nord Veterans are pretty much OP, since on every battle nord veterans slaughtered swadian/sarranid/rhodok infantry, even sarranid cav couldnt do a shit against nords on plain landscape, so pls give them other weapons or something like that, maybe warhammers are OP for bots :mrgreen:, or just give them an armor nerf.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Royans on May 20, 2013, 10:15:25 am
Quote from: Maximus94 on May 20, 2013, 07:13:58 am
I was playing the whole day yesterday and I and some other people  agreed that Nord Veterans are pretty much OP, since on every battle nord veterans slaughtered swadian/sarranid/rhodok infantry, even sarranid cav couldnt do a shit against nords on plain landscape, so pls give them other weapons or something like that, maybe warhammers are OP for bots :mrgreen:, or just give them an armor nerf.

While their cavalry is nearly useless, and their range  r so bad compare to any sharpshooter. so u want to nerf the only thing nord have? xD
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Felix on May 20, 2013, 10:56:23 am
Maybe implement new factions based on various clans' theme? Like Ninja faction, Byzantium faction, Mercs etc etc
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 20, 2013, 11:56:29 am
Quote from: Felix on May 20, 2013, 10:56:23 am
Maybe implement new factions based on various clans' theme? Like Ninja faction, Byzantium faction, Mercs etc etc

OR just a single playable faction with more troop types.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 20, 2013, 12:27:51 pm
Quote from: Maximus94 on May 20, 2013, 07:13:58 am
I was playing the whole day yesterday and I and some other people  agreed that Nord Veterans are pretty much OP, since on every battle nord veterans slaughtered swadian/sarranid/rhodok infantry, even sarranid cav couldnt do a shit against nords on plain landscape, so pls give them other weapons or something like that, maybe warhammers are OP for bots :mrgreen:, or just give them an armor nerf.

Dont forget that the AI behavior is hard to "control"...
The cav is particularly bad to play because they have a hard time couching and if they are still mounted, against infantry, they will try to thrust lances without speed, in close quarters combat...

Best tactic for cavalry is to make them follow you, and you pass behind the enemy squad you want to attack: making the cavalry effectively bump the enemy.
When you have sufficiently "surrounded them" with bots, press charge, wait a few sec, and tell them to follow you again and do a bump charge again, or make them dismount and fight (because they are way better at foot most of the time).
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 20, 2013, 12:35:33 pm
Quote from: Butan on May 20, 2013, 12:27:51 pm
Dont forget that the AI behavior is hard to "control"...
The cav is particularly bad to play because they have a hard time couching and if they are still mounted, against infantry, they will try to thrust lances without speed, in close quarters combat...

Best tactic for cavalry is to make them follow you, and you pass behind the enemy squad you want to attack: making the cavalry effectively bump the enemy.
When you have sufficiently "surrounded them" with bots, press charge, wait a few sec, and tell them to follow you again and do a bump charge again, or make them dismount and fight (because they are way better at foot most of the time).

Personally I just control them with move orders, it keeps them in formation. After each charge, once they start to split up or generally faff about too much, I regroup them with a move order, get them to where I want them to be, then order them to charge again. With cavalry this generally needs to be done more frequently.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Haboe on May 20, 2013, 12:39:48 pm
Archers are very weak due to crpg mechanics. Will need better bows and massive wpf to compensate.

If you spawn slightly later, you get no army

And make cav groups smaller (about 66-75%)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Haboe on May 20, 2013, 01:48:22 pm
Flagwin bug, losing team gets multi after losing the flag...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Arthur_ on May 20, 2013, 02:29:18 pm
Quote from: Royans on May 20, 2013, 10:15:25 am
While their cavalry is nearly useless, and their range  r so bad compare to any sharpshooter. so u want to nerf the only thing nord have? xD

No royans, nord archers vs. sharpshooters are actually the same and since they are also good in meele nords are the leading faction, sarrinds for example got only cav and maybe archers, but infantry.. meh..
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 20, 2013, 02:59:55 pm
I found sharpshooters decimated the archers. Cav is definitely unbalanced though. I actually found Swadians the strongest though. That cav just ripped through everyone I fought with.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Everkistus on May 20, 2013, 03:02:58 pm
I used to decimate bot armies with mamelukes in native SP. I'd still say the sarranids have the strongest cav units.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Overdriven on May 20, 2013, 03:31:34 pm
Quote from: Everkistus on May 20, 2013, 03:02:58 pm
I used to decimate bot armies with mamelukes in native SP. I'd still say the sarranids have the strongest cav units.

I'd say the same about swadian knights and I had a head on head battle with another guy, both of us straight charged our cav each other and his sarrinid cav were slaughtered by my men at arms. I still had most of my cav force left.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Conquisitore on May 20, 2013, 04:00:44 pm
Hey,
if i join one of the servers sometimes this error appears and also if the map changes:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Oberyn on May 20, 2013, 04:20:27 pm
I doubt any devs even read this and most likely came to the inspiration for this on their own or from NW commander mode, but I'm still going to take credit for it.

Quote from: Oberyn on November 21, 2012, 06:35:09 am
If we're talking ground up remake, I say something like NW commander mode battles with bots. A system more like Warband singleplayer. Make physical presence on the map matter, allow other players to join your "army" or caravan or whatever, every player is a commander that control his own squad of troops. Different troop trees and equipment depending on location. Formations, orders and terrain matter so much more when it's bots fighting, this would turn Strat battles into more of a tactical rts than a battlemode with respawns, with players in the role of commanders. Gigantic armies in formation would be epic if only for the visual.
It would probably require many different servers and a ton of work, or only a few people would get to play battles everyday. And I'm not sure how many bots a server can handle before it starts to slow down, and lowend computers probably wouldn't be able to handle it. This is totally unworkable but meh, just throwing ideas out there.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Kafein on May 20, 2013, 04:25:01 pm
No. This is obviously a Total War ripoff.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 20, 2013, 04:26:39 pm
Quote from: Oberyn on May 20, 2013, 04:20:27 pm
I doubt any devs even read this and most likely came to the inspiration for this on their own or from NW commander mode, but I'm still going to take credit for it.

We were doing this in 2010 already.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 20, 2013, 04:54:31 pm
Actually, the best is vaegir cav :

(click to show/hide)

Two handed weapons are the best cav weapons for AI.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 20, 2013, 05:08:37 pm
Yeah, in spite of their shitty horses Vaegir cav can actually make a mess. I was defending a hill against them with Sarranid infantry and they tore through my guys.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 20, 2013, 05:30:25 pm
And I was watching it.

The thing is, AI is very good when using two handed weapons on horseback. Sarranid mamlukes are an example of that (the one in native singleplayer).
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: okiN on May 20, 2013, 06:28:17 pm
Quote from: Ronin on May 20, 2013, 05:30:25 pm
And I was watching it.

Well, your screenshot shows what happened before, when the cavalry charged a bunch of unattended archers who were mindlessly walking up a hill to greet the enemy. At that point I was just watching in horror myself. But after that the cavalry came to my infantry, who as I said were defending a hilltop in an orderly fashion, and they did almost as well. So yeah, clearly pretty good. Of course it doesn't help that Sarranid infantry are rubbish.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: ThePoopy on May 20, 2013, 07:45:34 pm
needed commands:

use/sheat shield

split space betwean men and how many lines

what way the line should face
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Royans on May 20, 2013, 09:04:32 pm
Quote from: ThePoopy on May 20, 2013, 07:45:34 pm
needed commands:

use/sheat shield

split space betwean men and how many lines

what way the line should face


if that would be possible, would be pretty interesting, add some more strategy to adopt
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 20, 2013, 09:14:52 pm
Quote from: ThePoopy on May 20, 2013, 07:45:34 pm
needed commands:

-charge straight forward
-rotate left
-rotate right

Quote from: ThePoopy on May 20, 2013, 07:45:34 pm
use/sheat shield

Try F3 F3 - use blunt weapon only. All solders who have shields will use them.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Moncho on May 20, 2013, 09:47:59 pm
Very nice mode, it is something I had always wanted to play and never got around to.


Quote
Try F3 F3 - use blunt weapon only. All solders who have shields will use them.
This may not work if they have a blunt 2her/polearm (not sure if any troops do though), since what happens is that they change to their fists / blunt 1her to deal blunt damage.

Split space between men can be done with spread out/stand closer together quite nicely, though it takes getting used to.

Charge straight forward is easy: simply tell them to hold a position straight ahead and when they get there change to charge. I find most of the time telling them to hold works better than charging, since they tend to stay in a big angry mob

Also, Rhodok Sharpshooters are quite OP imo. A group of 30 took out 40ish nord veterans with 20ish losses at the end of a battle with the nordmen charging downhill.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: ThePoopy on May 20, 2013, 10:01:12 pm
i meant more wep control in general, etc lancers to charge with lance but then change to sword or dismounted swadian knights to use longsword as 2h and not 1h.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Falka on May 20, 2013, 10:34:45 pm
Quote from: Moncho on May 20, 2013, 09:47:59 pm
Charge straight forward is easy: simply tell them to hold a position straight ahead and when they get there change to charge.

If your cav has sharpshooters in front of them and inf a bit on the flank the only way to make proper charge is lead them... 50 xbowers shooting at you quite often ends in your death :P
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Moncho on May 20, 2013, 11:25:30 pm
Quote from: Falka on May 20, 2013, 10:34:45 pm
If your cav has sharpshooters in front of them and inf a bit on the flank the only way to make proper charge is lead them... 50 xbowers shooting at you quite often ends in your death :P

Not really. You stay off to the side, and tell them to hold a position behind the shooters. That way they will go and couch a lot, and the speed bonus makes them more deadly. Or you tell them to move behind, and at the last moment change the order to charge. Then they keep the momentum up, but still engage properly.
I hate the way charge works, since it removes all of the momentum from them, and some horses tend to move sideways blocking and rearing nearby other ones. When I command cav, I try to always keep them moving.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Tom Cruise on May 21, 2013, 04:07:11 am
Quote from: Falka on May 20, 2013, 10:34:45 pm
If your cav has sharpshooters in front of them and inf a bit on the flank the only way to make proper charge is lead them... 50 xbowers shooting at you quite often ends in your death :P

Advance 10 paces a couple of times.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Teeth on May 21, 2013, 01:08:36 pm
In tons of singleplayer mods, improvements to the AI have been made to make them less retarded. For example, the Eagle and the Radiant Cross mod I was just playing.

They have 15th century pikemen there with 400(!) length pikes and they are actually one of the best melee units in the game. The AI switches to a back up sword when an enemy gets within a certain range and switches back to the pike when they get some more room. Combined with them using square formations, groups of pikemen supporting eachother actually turn into a deadly killing machine, like they should be, instead of a bunch of retards glancing while the enemy shielders slaughter them.

I imagine this would also work for lancers and hoplites, having them switch to their swing weapon when fighting up close. AI improvements like these and being able to use formations would propel this game mode into so much more awesomeness and would go a long way into reducing frustrations about the AI sucking at using certain weapons. I think these scripts for the AI are pretty much freely available.

Quote from: Falka on May 20, 2013, 10:34:45 pm
If your cav has sharpshooters in front of them and inf a bit on the flank the only way to make proper charge is lead them... 50 xbowers shooting at you quite often ends in your death :P
Hold F1, put the little flag where you want them to go, release, watch as your infantry advances with you behind them. I had the same problem until Zlisch pointed this out, always just used the minimap when commanding in singleplayer.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Ronin on May 21, 2013, 01:32:11 pm
Teeth actually this is what I was going to suggest.

It's same in floris as well, which means it is completely OSP!

You can turn these options on and off

AI fixes (changing spears to another melee weapon, it certainly has it's effect)
(click to show/hide)
More AI options (skirmishing makes archers to run away automatically unless given a different order)
(click to show/hide)
Class change catagory (very useful, considering half of your cav dismounts for no reason sometimes)
(click to show/hide)

And more order types:
F5 orders menu
(click to show/hide)
F6 orders menu
(click to show/hide)
F7 orders menu
(click to show/hide)

I simply can't see any reason not to add these into the game mode. It certainly reduces the retardiness of AI considerably.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Moncho on May 21, 2013, 06:58:38 pm
This is the most fun I have had with cRPG in a while.
A while ago managed to outmanouver Swadia with rhodoks in a 3v5 situation with both my friendly commanders dying quite soon. Phew that was tense.

Fun gamemode
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Felix on May 22, 2013, 01:36:00 pm
I have a question - how do i even spawn? It just shows me the usual equipment screen + i can choose what kind of troops to choose. And then nothing.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Chris_the_Animal on May 22, 2013, 01:59:29 pm
and then you need to tick the "ready to spawn" and one troop class and then spawn ;)

you spawn with plated armor and courser and the bots spawn when your team has chosen all different classes at least 1 time
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: woody on May 22, 2013, 04:07:54 pm
Troop balance is off.

Played Sarrinid verus Rhodok, how the hell to kill rhodok sargeants?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Moncho on May 22, 2013, 04:10:12 pm
Quote from: woody on May 22, 2013, 04:07:54 pm
Troop balance is off.

Played Sarrinid verus Rhodok, how the hell to kill rhodok sargeants?
Cav charge. Slaughtered some nords who were mostly inf by using cav.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 22, 2013, 04:39:27 pm
I feel the factions have strength and weakness just like in SP. Great balance.


The only problem is when, for example, you play Vaegir : one of the commander of your team takes Infantry/Archers. EVERYONE ELSE take Cavalry (which is a very good melee cav with this faction).
Playing purely on the strength of the faction you are in can do so great that its not even funny sometimes  :P
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Algarn on May 22, 2013, 09:46:27 pm
The commander MUST die when his troops are dead ... I lost 3 times cause of assholes who made bots turn around a mountain , and take the flag ...
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: ARN_ on May 22, 2013, 09:52:19 pm
Experienced bugged flags today,  enemy team took them but they didn´t win.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Patoson on May 23, 2013, 02:48:01 pm
The mode is lots of fun, but, if it's possible, I would remove the "hold this position" spam when troops spawn. If you have moved from spawn, troops follow you to that new position and half the cavalry dismounts (which could be solved if people with infantry just spread out his troops too...). If troops didn't move when spawning, cavalry would probably not go crazy like that.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on May 23, 2013, 06:47:25 pm
Quote from: Patoson on May 23, 2013, 02:48:01 pm
The mode is lots of fun, but, if it's possible, I would remove the "hold this position" spam when troops spawn. If you have moved from spawn, troops follow you to that new position and half the cavalry dismounts (which could be solved if people with infantry just spread out his troops too...). If troops didn't move when spawning, cavalry would probably not go crazy like that.

(click to show/hide)


Yes and even better, create one spawn per commander so that they dont spawn on each other like they do atm.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Belatu on May 24, 2013, 12:51:50 am
Comander mode is awesome. I like it  :)
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Anita_Henjaab on May 25, 2013, 09:11:26 am
Just my 2 cents;


First, wow what a job! Great Idea.

I don't like how the flags spawn. They always spawn almost 'right in the middle' of the two armies.
I'd say the army that advanced the most should have an edge, right now if you just spawn and you are lucky to stand on a hill... why even move?
SOLUTION
I'd say make it worth marching forward please! Put the flag close to those who traveled the most.


Some maps have hills larger then the kilamanjaro. Please get rid of them.

All guys are more or less good. BUT nordic scouts are worthlesss, sometimes it takes minutes before someone of your group finally accepts to be the fucked up nordic scout looser.
I'd like to give my idea to make it even more challenging, buff and nerf so this is more accentuated:
Archers good versus infantry (if infantry rushes into a rainbow of arows they should be hit HARD)
Cavalry good versus archers (nordic archers are too good against cav)
Infantry good versus cavalry

Sometimes I hate it when people spawn in your team, and they don't communicate, mostly dont even speak french, english, german or spanish (Yes I speak em all  more or less).
They mostly just do their thing and charge which always makes you loose your multi.
But I don't want to be crying here all the time.
I'd say the commander who was there the longest or who played last game should be able to decide to allow new players or not.
SOLUTION:
I'd say add valour for people who kill more then 1.5 x their armysize to buffer for previous QQing. If you play smart it doesnt matter if your team really wins.

Right now I'd say, don't nerf the gold. Mostly you don't get further then X3 cos a noobie or non english speaker joins.
But with that valour I'd say add some upkeep again... !

I hope you'll implement some of this.


Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Belatu on May 25, 2013, 07:38:42 pm
Quote from: chadz on May 19, 2013, 02:06:17 pm
No weapons.
I understand why some of you like it, but maybe this is just not the gamemode for it.
What the game turns into when people have weapons:

People rush, try to kill a few bots right at spawn. Other commanders now have to try to kill other players to defend their bots. The whole focus moves away from the commanding, and instead on "who can use his own skills to shift the favor in his side". It would be battle with a few players and 300 bots. That's not the point of it. I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, or that it would be a bad gamemode. Just not what this gamemode is about.

So no, weapons will never be part of it. It's simply not your gamemode then. Try DTV.
It seems like you are totally right.
but maybe you can make a test in a server for some weeks to see how it is going. Just for experimenting.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: kono yaro! on October 19, 2013, 04:52:03 pm
what happened to this gamemode?
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Osiris on October 19, 2013, 04:55:33 pm
"So, due to bad luck, we are running two strong servers parallel for a few weeks. Instead of just pay for it with no gain, we thought "what can we do to squeeze out the cpu?". "
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: kono yaro! on October 19, 2013, 05:00:36 pm
Quote from: Osiris on October 19, 2013, 04:55:33 pm
"So, due to bad luck, we are running two strong servers parallel for a few weeks. Instead of just pay for it with no gain, we thought "what can we do to squeeze out the cpu?". "

dang. i liked it
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: NejStark on October 19, 2013, 05:05:52 pm
Yeah I miss it too. Was cool.
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: Butan on October 19, 2013, 05:24:06 pm
Donation wave *2 : give money for new servers to re-open commander mode => win 40k more €
Title: Re: [NEW] Commander Mode
Post by: ARN_ on December 02, 2013, 09:26:31 am
Bring back plox