cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 09, 2012, 11:41:06 pm

Title: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 09, 2012, 11:41:06 pm
Hello all.

I will start by a short disclaimer stating that this is not a whine thread. It is purely here to point a problem that even a 7 years old kid could notice. I have to do this because sadly there are many arrogant people that, when we put them in front of a truth just go : "lol newb, stop QQ"

This isnt a recent problem, it was in game well before but it has got worse recently. what is it then?

Cav is stack in one team, and this is not just 5 more cav in one team. We are talking about 3 cav vs 25

Why is this so? Well i will first start by the fact that there are an important amount of them. Many of them are not pure pure cav because, let's face it, cav is the easiest hybrid class to build. for 5 skills in riding you can ride the destrier, the best all around horse, or an armored horse. those extra five point you didnt know what to do : "IF or shield?? meh...riding..."
There you go, you can be as effective as any other cav, zoom off!

now This problem is worsened By GK. Unlike all other clans that accept all classes, GK, accepts ONLY cav (except Leshma but he's special). This results in serious cav imbalance on the server when GK come online having 10 members ont the same side. Just raping everything there is and forcing the whole team just to camp a corner, how fun! It is really hard, whith the constant sound of hooves you have to look around like a nervous paranoid guy, and when you try to defend yourself theres is another one that rapes you making the whole argument "awareness bro" copmpletly useless and not thought through.

They cause serious imbalance.

Please tell meGK, how this can be amusing for you? you have NO, NOT AT ALL, ANY opposition in the enmy team. And when i read that you wish the return of old lance angle im confused! Why? just to rape infantry more? Because you must not be dueling much cav for the moment so i believe that is slightly hypocritical!

So what is to be done? you cant ignore there is a problem right? Do we have to have the server to force you to be spread across the teams? do we force you to have two banners?
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Hobb on September 09, 2012, 11:50:03 pm
Daily EU drama thread
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 09, 2012, 11:51:12 pm
Daily EU drama thread

daily stupid NA comment
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Moncho on September 09, 2012, 11:53:12 pm
Hi, 

It's signed, 

I can only approved.

I know they want to play together, but being in the other team is no fun at all.
What can you do? Get a spear? WRONG, you get shot to pieces by their HAs.
hmmm lets thing, camp the corner, or a strategic place depending on the map? tried it tonight, with a few deserters, the french and some other people, oh wait, the flags just spawned in the other side of the map, oh well, lets try and go, yay the HAs and lancers are everywhere again...
More ideas? Shoot them? We dont have enough arrows to kill 15+ horses!

Yet again, this is just QQing after playing with very little fun for over an hour EU 1, had not been there long these last months...
Well, back to siege it is then...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Miwiw on September 09, 2012, 11:55:25 pm
Remove banner balance and include class balance instead.
Only solution.

You cant force GK to split in two. On other days there might be another clan winning a round after another.
You cant force them to not play cav either. That's not fair after all.

--> simple QQ thread. done.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Nessaj on September 10, 2012, 12:05:14 am
Remove banner balance and include class balance instead.
Only solution.

You cant force GK to split in two. On other days there might be another clan winning a round after another.
You cant force them to not play cav either. That's not fair after all.

--> simple QQ thread. done.

Why would banner balance need to be removed? Simple class balance would still solve it, clans would STILL get split up as  is the case at the moment - except it doesn't account for classes.

Removing banner balance would demolish public play for all clans, and I think less of you as a person for suggesting it Miwiw! :P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Miwiw on September 10, 2012, 12:07:12 am
Hm...
Rather meant that banner balance is never more important than class balance. Doesn't have to be removed, true.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 12:08:43 am
Remove banner balance and include class balance instead.
Only solution.

You cant force GK to split in two. On other days there might be another clan winning a round after another.
You cant force them to not play cav either. That's not fair after all.

--> simple QQ thread. done.

ho is this a simple QQ thread? so if there's a game breaking weapon/feature/bug/others we should shut and deal with it? great...

maybe some other clan can rape, but there is only one clan that stacks the same class on one side, and that is GK.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Darkoveride on September 10, 2012, 12:10:39 am
thank you thank you , ill be signing autographs.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: un_rayo_de_tigre on September 10, 2012, 12:12:57 am
tl;dr

As far as I'm concerned, there are plenty of clans that steamroll in this exact situation, furthermore, occurrences where GK are 9 men strong on a server, at any given point, is like winning the lottery.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 12:15:11 am
I liked the paranoid part a lot, touching ...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 10, 2012, 12:18:31 am
Unlike all other clans that accept all classes, GK, accepts ONLY cav (except Leshma but he's special).

Honorary mention to Cavalieres ;] also we try to get C47 into GK but he keeps refusing
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 12:21:08 am
thank you thank you , ill be signing autographs.
You're like one of the 100 generic GKs no one knows who are.
EDIT:
Also, Lactose, try playing EU_4, you'll bitch about lack of bannerbalance but the only way of balancing cav amounts somewhat evenly would be removing bannerbalance/making it split the banner in two somewhat equally big parts if there are more than 5 guys on the same banner, now, because EU_4 ain't got no GK there are tons of archers, some days we got 12 out of 18 players being archers, either we have a shitload of GKs or we have a shitload of archers, and, balancing them evenly on both teams would still not change a lot, as there'd still be so many cav/archers that you'd die before reaching the enemy infantry most of the time unless you're a shielder, 'cause 9 out of ten times archers don't aim for cav unless the cav attack them, and 9 out of 10 cav prefers stabbing inf over stabbing archers, going hoplite is the only solution, or praying for a nerf that makes cav take damage once they're dehorsed, and remove kiting from archers, and make cav loud as shit.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Idzo on September 10, 2012, 12:23:13 am
Lactose, I understand you.. But I don't have problems with GK's..

But also i think there is nothing to be done about it...
I don't want class balance because we all have clan and i want to play with my teammates

Guys/GK's are having fun, they have their clan and that's purpose of same.

Most of us play this because of awesome melee fighting system but yeah... there is something.. always..
Because of cav and archers mod is unplayable, that's why I switched from 2h/poles to hoplite. There are too much heroes are around who think they cant kill everyone alone..  With hoplite build i protected myself from arrows and from cav. Now i suck in dueling but i can take axe from time to time and have fun..
There is also big problem called teammates - they spawn and run straight and get couched from side in first 20 sec..
It might sound silly but somehow they are griefing (?) other teammates with their brainless actions...

Also, I would like advise guys to take hybrid build with throwing stuff, which is semi-ranged and also quite effective against cav and archers.

Hybrids, 18/18 builds ftw.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Kerrigan on September 10, 2012, 12:24:50 am
Long time ago Lactose_the_Intolerant here,
he was hitchhikin' down a long and lonesome road.
All of a sudden, there shined a shiny thread... in the middle... of the forum.

And the thread said;
"Fuck this GK cav clan out of the world, or I'll GTX."

And he typed the first thing that came to his head,
Just so happened to be,
The Best Thread in the World, it was The Best Thread in the World.

Look into his eyes and it's easy to see
One and one make two, two and one make three,
It was destiny.
Once every hundred-thousand years or so,
When the sun doth shine and the moon doth glow
And the cav doth grow...

Needless to say, the forum was stunned.
Dramadrama went his whoopy tail,
And the forum was done.
They asked him "Be you a woman?"
And he said, "Nay. I am but raging."

Cav!
Ahhh, ahhh, ahhh-ah-ah,
Ohhh, whoah, ah-whoah-oh!

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Malaclypse on September 10, 2012, 12:26:28 am
Having balance consider multiple variables with different levels of importance would be a plus.

Class (skill/stat allocation) > Level > Banner > Score. Something like that, idk. Been suggested before, Banner still plays most important role apparently.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 12:27:29 am
We shall put a link to this thread as "GK in the media" in our main forum page.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 12:38:33 am
Long time ago Lactose_the_Intolerant here,
he was hitchhikin' down a long and lonesome road.
All of a sudden, there shined a shiny thread... in the middle... of the forum.

And the thread said;
"Fuck this GK cav clan out of the world, or I'll GTX."

And he typed the first thing that came to his head,
Just so happened to be,
The Best Thread in the World, it was The Best Thread in the World.

Look into his eyes and it's easy to see
One and one make two, two and one make three,
It was destiny.
Once every hundred-thousand years or so,
When the sun doth shine and the moon doth glow
And the cav doth grow...

Needless to say, the forum was stunned.
Dramadrama went his whoopy tail,
And the forum was done.
They asked him "Be you a woman?"
And he said, "Nay. I am but raging."

Cav!
Ahhh, ahhh, ahhh-ah-ah,
Ohhh, whoah, ah-whoah-oh!

I have to say, nice poem! Do you write them on the moment or do you have them saved in a corner of your computer and just stick in the words that fits the situation?

meh
Hello all.

I will start by a short disclaimer stating that this is not a whine thread. It is purely here to point a problem that even a 7 years old kid could notice. I have to do this because sadly there are many arrogant people that, when we put them in front of a truth just go : "lol newb, stop QQ"


izdo, it is very fine taking throwing, i believe you'v seen my throwing equipment on the battlefield. And trust me, 6 jarids and a throwing lance is really not enough to defend but myself.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Fips on September 10, 2012, 12:39:20 am
Congratz GK, seems like you killed EU1 this evening!  :lol:

Siege ftw.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 12:42:14 am
Siege ftw.

thats why siege server is always full, you can play relaxed without being a stressed psycho maniac ferret that has taken 20 coffes in an hour
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Idzo on September 10, 2012, 12:47:29 am
izdo, it is very fine taking throwing, i believe you'v seen my throwing equipment on the battlefield. And trust me, 6 jarids and a throwing lance is really not enough to defend but myself.

Yeah, I did saw it. If there would be more ppl with decent cav awareness and decent equipment, cav wouldn't stand chance..
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 12:48:54 am
Yeah, I did saw it. If there would be more ppl with decent cav awareness and decent equipment, cav wouldn't stand chance..

ha! untill then...

ps : thank you for having a constructive answer by the way, the arts of argumentation are sadly not given to anyone...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Darkoveride on September 10, 2012, 12:49:21 am
im sure a few of us GK's will be reforming our alt hoplite clan soon.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on September 10, 2012, 12:49:39 am
Congratz GK, seems like you killed EU1 this evening!  :lol:

Siege ftw.
Hell, at least you have siege server...

Anyway, as much as I dislike cavalry with everyone else, someone can say the same about archer clans, or clans with lots of melee.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Miwiw on September 10, 2012, 12:55:15 am
So, that's an interesting post. What is wrong about clans with a lot of melee players?

Starting with Archers and cav, they are annoying you and most people but what about melee now?
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 12:55:34 am
im sure a few of us GK's will be reforming our alt hoplite clan soon.
ok lets have your hoplite guys vs the GK guys!  8-)

froco, a full melee clan, in my opinion, scares no one...

a an archer squad can be annoying but they can be overcome
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 12:58:28 am
This thread has made me want to play crpg now... I suppose an extra GK on eu1 cant do any harm :P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Mlekce on September 10, 2012, 01:01:56 am
I can live with lancers,but ammount of ranged and HA is unbearable.
Getting shot all the time. Drop shield for 1 second and get 5 arrows in body. :(
Damn merc's.  :mrgreen: Are u guys all ranged?
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Thovex on September 10, 2012, 01:14:17 am
We shall put a link to this thread as "GK in the media" in our main forum page.

You'll forever be Kapikulu anyway.

Also.

I'm a cav and sometimes it's a bit odd to see 30 vs 3 cav in EU1, it makes some variation but gets boring fast, I believe there should be more class balance but splitting clans up is not an option, so there need to be proper suggestions for this.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Crob28 on September 10, 2012, 01:16:07 am
Taking the GK clan out of the equation for the moment, the fact remains that there is, and has been for a long time, a flaw in the way that the game balances cavalry.

I admit that in recent weeks I've only played Eu1 when 2 has died, so the server often has only 60 players max, but time and time again it is the case that an overwhelming majority of cav players will be on one team, regardless of banner, etc.

Even more oddly, when the game decides to switch a player to deal with imbalance, it almost always switches an infantry player from the cav dominated team, which is almost entirely ineffective and does not address the imbalance within the teams at all.

Clans stacking to win constantly is/has been a fact of life on this game for a long time and I have no major issue with it, I won't begrudge others the extra teamwork, etc that they have worked towards, but as I've said, an issue remains with the balance of cavalry, the GK thing here serves to highlight the problem perhaps, but talking about clan/banner balance, etc, is wrong as it takes attention away from the fact that there is a flaw in the balance system that has nothing to do with those things.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: WhiteAndMilky on September 10, 2012, 01:24:01 am
Pike, Long Spear. Problem Solved  :D
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Leshma on September 10, 2012, 01:26:36 am
GK are good people.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 01:27:22 am
GK are good people.
-1
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Nessaj on September 10, 2012, 01:29:42 am
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Bjord on September 10, 2012, 01:44:57 am
  • Make lances break on first or second couch (cmp fix magic).
  • Make unarmoured horses take damage when bumping people above a certain speed.
  • Adjust manoeuvrability on most horses - especially Arabian.

1. Heav lances were designed to not break, even great lances. This was only for jousting tournaments to reduce the impact and even to make the impact more effectful. However, that's realism and not balance.
2. Agreed.
3. I assume in the nerf direction, in which case only the Arabian. Others are fine.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 01:47:16 am
Solution for this thread=Ban all GK, start with this guy: http://forum.meleegaming.com/eu-(official)/a-gk-that-spawned-twice-whose-name-i-can't-quite-recall/
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Gurnisson on September 10, 2012, 01:49:43 am
Pike, Long Spear. Problem Solved  :D

With all those HAs. A piker is useless in situations like those. Hoplites and throwers with shields are much more useful.


Anyway, regarding the op. I don't think cavalry is overpowered, and I don't think it's any problem with the banner balance and having the majority of one class on one team. You can still if you play well and try to organize the team. It won't work all the time, but once you get an urban map then the GK team will have a real problem getting multipliers at all. I don't see anyone complaining about that though, when they're able to steamroll the other team who consists mostly of cavalry who's obviously a bit weaker on the ground.

A full GK stack will probably win most of the time on very open maps like ruins and the open deserts etc. but there's also urban/city maps in the rotation, don't forget. They pay for their efficiency on open maps by dedicating themselves to being cavalry, but it also brings that bad part, they'll have difficulties when the maps are less favourable.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Thovex on September 10, 2012, 01:53:55 am
  • Make lances break on first or second couch (cmp fix magic).
  • Make unarmoured horses take damage when bumping people above a certain speed.
  • Adjust manoeuvrability on most horses - especially Arabian.

Time to respec again.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: NuberT on September 10, 2012, 01:54:45 am
If I would still play cav, I would prefer removing lowskill couching, but increasing turning limit back to a point where it is actually possible to win vs 2h stab (skill/timing required).

Couching and teambumps are the only things that really piss me off about cav.

1. Heav lances were designed to not break, even great lances. This was only for jousting tournaments to reduce the impact and even to make the impact more effectful. However, that's realism and not balance.
probably true but realism is no argument here, or tell me how you get the lance out of the dead body without unmounting :P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Bonze on September 10, 2012, 01:55:57 am
  • Make lances break on first or second couch (cmp fix magic).
  • Make unarmoured horses take damage when bumping people above a certain speed.
  • Adjust manoeuvrability on most horses - especially Arabian.

 Most Gk have destrier and 1h cav is hard enough with all the agi whores

GK are good people.

Sure people who coop with enemy are good people ...!
Seen yesterday, ignore your enemy (own clan member) if he stay 1 meter away and no other enemy is around.
really nice people ....
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 01:59:55 am
You'll forever be Kapikulu anyway.
... speaks the Risen Nord, lol  :D

Actually you should be admiring us instead of raging. We are still able to play as cav which has been nerfed bazillion times but still the most expensive build to upkeep ( Try HA for once  :wink: ). And let me remind you, we generally suck balls on town/city maps, which most of you forgot to mention somehow.

Open plains are ours, our only way to make gold, which turns into dust much quicker then you can imagine ...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 02:05:40 am
1.( Try HA for once  :wink: )
2.we generally suck balls on town/city maps
1.Try HT for once :wink:
2.Cav can pretty easily go 1/1 on city maps too, and worse case scenario you ditch the 7-3 points you put into riding and go fully viable inf/my old friendcher (admittedly my old friendcher is only 50% viable).
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 02:07:33 am
meh, thread derailed, i dont have a problem with cav as single person, its ok balanced, its stacking them in one team in stupid proportions
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Leshma on September 10, 2012, 02:12:47 am
Sure people who coop with enemy are good people ...!
Seen yesterday, ignore your enemy (own clan member) if he stay 1 meter away and no other enemy is around.
really nice people ....

That's a common thing in cRPG.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 10, 2012, 02:38:48 am
That's a common thing in cRPG.
Quite the opposite what we do in Fallen. We hunt especially each other if we are on different teams :DDD. I attack damn everyone in the opposing team, no matter who it is. But who am I to judge if someone picks their fights by some strange standards...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joker86 on September 10, 2012, 02:42:51 am
Pike, Long Spear. Problem Solved  :D

Useless comment. You can't expect people to change their class, otherwise it would be completely unreasonable to offer other equipment and skills to choose from on the website.

Anyway, regarding the op. I don't think cavalry is overpowered, and I don't think it's any problem with the banner balance and having the majority of one class on one team.

Nobody said cav was OP. But in a rock-paper-scissors-system, which is basing on the fact that all entities have the same chance of killing someone and being killed by someone, you have serious issues as soon as you have ten rocks fighting five scissors and five papers, because there won't be enough papers to stop the rocks in time, and then the rocks will smash everything. The same mechanic applies for archers, too. The only exception is infantry, as - in difference to the other classes - they both lack mobility to run away and flexibility in which target to attack. Archers and cavalry can support each other even without teamwork, infantry can't. A linearly growing percentage of infantry increases the effectivity of the team linearly, a linearly growing percentage of archers and/or cavalry increases it exponentially. There's the difference and the main problem.


You can still if you play well and try to organize the team. It won't work all the time, but once you get an urban map then the GK team will have a real problem getting multipliers at all. I don't see anyone complaining about that though, when they're able to steamroll the other team who consists mostly of cavalry who's obviously a bit weaker on the ground.

A full GK stack will probably win most of the time on very open maps like ruins and the open deserts etc. but there's also urban/city maps in the rotation, don't forget. They pay for their efficiency on open maps by dedicating themselves to being cavalry, but it also brings that bad part, they'll have difficulties when the maps are less favourable.

First of all, with the current emphasis the developers put into organizing tactics and leading teams (which is... err... zero?) you can't really expect the other team to always play with their mind and have equal chances. I tried it, and there was a time I expected it, but I gave up. Most cRPG players just play for their personal duels, not for winning the battle. I see tons of gameplay videos where melee fighters are only moving towards the first target they see, in a straight line, neither looking for cav or archers nor what the rest of the team is doing. It is pretty frustrating, and I am starting to be one of those who always claim that humanity consits of 90% idiots. At least. You don't see anything else than autowalking Rambo-lemmings, of which most should be allowed to use those parking spaces with the man in the wheelchair sign on them. That is why "organize your team" is not an acceptable answer for someone who DOES care for winning the round, which puts him in a minority in cRPG.

Then there is the other fact that we have very very few maps which are ONLY city maps, but a lot of rather open maps which are well suitable for cav. To say that it is fair and cav has to pay their prize, you would need a percentage of 50% city street maps. But you don't, so it is unfair most of the time. And by the way, cav does also not really bad on those maps. At least not as bad as they do well on open maps.

____________________________________________

And I find it quite symptomatic for the cRPG community how none of the GK players showed that he actually understands the concerns of some players, and that he can feel with them. It's only about being as effective as possible, and growing the own e-peen by collecting kills, instead of actually feeling like a community which holds together and is aware of the fact, that you need the other players to be able to have fun, because fighting bots is not really comparable. So people need to learn that caring for other people's fun means securing the fun for oneself. But see my paragraph above, and of what 90% of humanity consists of.  :?

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Ptolemy on September 10, 2012, 02:52:25 am
...once you get an urban map then the GK team will have a real problem getting multipliers at all. I don't see anyone complaining about that though...

The reason they don't complain is because they lose their x5 for one map, then it's another open map where cav dominates again. Just means that they have to lose the horse for a few rounds (thus lowering their repair costs in the process). I don't think that cav are OP (except couches, they should be blockable somehow), it's just that there are so many of them now that it's hard - even with an organised team - to do anything about them. Really this is a balance problem coupled with a map selection problem. If we had less of the flat, open maps then we'd have far less of a problem with cavalry.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Turboflex on September 10, 2012, 04:09:51 am
The prob is that cav is overpowered. As the original poster points out cav is the cheapest "hybrid" to pick up. Out of 89 skill/attribute points a lvl 30 char has to distribute, it costs 5 and zero WPF. This is way cheaper then picking up 2 melee skills, or a ranged ability.

So not only is it very cheap, but it's a huge power enhancer. You gain massive mobility increase, cav bumping knockdown ability, and fight on horse while it takes damage, then when it comes down you fight on as infantry with 94% of pure infantry potential.

This OP-ness of cav is acknowledged, and is supposed to be balanced by cost. But since you can sell loom points easily for 500k, if you really wanna fund a money losing cav gen it's pretty painless and cost is no issue. It really needs an ability nerf, my suggestion is rider takes heavy balance on fall, this would add big downside to riding, cuz currently there's very little.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Malaclypse on September 10, 2012, 05:40:28 am
The prob is that cav is overpowered. As the original poster points out cav is the cheapest "hybrid" to pick up. Out of 89 skill/attribute points a lvl 30 char has to distribute, it costs 5 and zero WPF. This is way cheaper then picking up 2 melee skills, or a ranged ability.

So not only is it very cheap, but it's a huge power enhancer. You gain massive mobility increase, cav bumping knockdown ability, and fight on horse while it takes damage, then when it comes down you fight on as infantry with 94% of pure infantry potential.

cRPG needs to add CLOP-tier (you know the drill (http://you know the drillhttp://www.foddy.net/CLOP.html)) controls for cavalry to increase difficulty curve.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 10, 2012, 05:58:55 am
Quite the opposite what we do in Fallen. We hunt especially each other if we are on different teams :DDD. I attack damn everyone in the opposing team, no matter who it is. But who am I to judge if someone picks their fights by some strange standards...
Few things are more satisfying in this game then killing your own clanmate  :twisted:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 10, 2012, 06:18:28 am
It's not a cavalry problem, it's a team balance problem...the problem is that banners are weighted more heavily than classes/equipment, which is a problem in a public server.

And I never liked those fucks on your team who don't attack the enemy because they're in the same clan, that's retarded.  I'm with Fallen...in every game whenever I'm on the enemy team as my clanmates I always target them if I have a choice of enemies.

Useless comment. You can't expect people to change their class, otherwise it would be completely unreasonable to offer other equipment and skills to choose from on the website.



Just ignore people who say shit like that...the real issue is that people need to change their tactics, and who they are fighting with.  You don't need to pick up a pike or a bow to combat cavalry or enemy ranged, but you can certainly stick with people who can hit the enemy ranged, or who can stop the enemy horses.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: dorvalis on September 10, 2012, 07:16:04 am
i agree with idzo on this one when i play i dont come for good score or many kills.. i come to play with my epic clan mates and have insane amounts of fun  :D and teamkill them in the end and say that it is bannerbug/autorelease ofc.

so when i get killed by a couching lance and Latviano asks me "why so dead geezer?" then i know that i failed this round  :D but then when it happens to Latviano or idzo or phase the next round, its all ok again :D

PS: same goes for archers - headshot "nice catch geezer 10pts."  :D :D :D
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Vibe on September 10, 2012, 07:42:48 am
Horseman myself:

>> join EU1
>> check scoreboard
>> 20 GK on enemy team
>> play something else
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 08:06:51 am
Horseman myself:

>> join EU1
>> check scoreboard
>> 2040 GK on enemy team
>> play something else
Fixed.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Vibe on September 10, 2012, 08:22:41 am
Fixed.

Eh, even 10 more cav on one team is enough to break the game, especially if they're eez mode lancer cav.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Angry_Bag on September 10, 2012, 08:42:20 am
i have been playing on foot for the last 6 respecs!
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 09:04:58 am
Quite the opposite what we do in Fallen. We hunt especially each other if we are on different teams :DDD. I attack damn everyone in the opposing team, no matter who it is. But who am I to judge if someone picks their fights by some strange standards...


fallen ts.
ramses:  now watch out for torben.  he will hit you within the first few seconds,  and he will hit you hard.  ok,  move out!

torben (lances) ramses.

good times :')
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: [ptx] on September 10, 2012, 09:06:14 am
Pikeman here. I play on EU2, to not get shot or bumped to death.

Last i played on EU1 and faced this cav horde, i was simultaneously getting shot and lanced from multiple directions, despite having teammates around (who received the same). Pike/long spear doesn't help, it just makes you slower and puts a big target on your head.
EU1 dominated by GK.
EU2 dominated by Grey & HRE.
EU4 dominated by archers.

Nothing you can do about it. Strength in numbers.

Taking second biggest banner block might soften the blow on EU1 and EU2, but good luck doing that without having to go trough tedious clan initiation and pledging.
lolno.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Jedimaster on September 10, 2012, 09:12:30 am
Cav limit to teams should fix the problem.. or equal balance
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 09:17:59 am
Cav limit to teams should fix the problem.. or equal balance

ranged as well thuough.  seriosly.  a team full of ranged.  ahrg.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: justme on September 10, 2012, 10:46:27 am
save the eu1, it will have less players then DTV if this cav thing continues..
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Son Of Odin on September 10, 2012, 10:47:20 am
save the eu1, it will have less players then DTV if this ranged thing continues..
fix'd
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 10, 2012, 11:17:27 am
You forgot to mention Nuuk, as he is one of the few GK's that only use his horse when he got x5, due to fear of repair
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 12:31:09 pm
I have to say this is all quite funny :P

firstly to address the mention of soooo many open maps... Do we have the list of rotation, because I have seen ruins very little recently and commercial city / riot in a swadian town a hell of a lot. I really think that city and village maps make up the majority of maps these days and while it does put cav at a disadvantage in the long run it helps us... and this takes me to the second point.

Too many people are just used to ramboing round a city, turning behind a wall or ledge to avoid cav, meaning they get away with being out of position. This means that when it comes to open maps, these people just charge off with little teamwork and then cavalry do what cavalry do. I still remember rounds where cavalry struggled to attack a team on open ground because they would work together. No one works together now, so if us GK come on and play as a large unit, of course we are going to dominate. We thrive off other people being distracted and disorganised. You distract yourselves from the start and you play disorganised from the start. You really wanna stop this from happening? Bring in a system that encourages people to play together and dont expect to win if you are on foot, running around in the open, 20 metres from any of your team.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: v/onMega on September 10, 2012, 12:41:31 pm
Not saying cav is easy.
Not saying cav is OP.

GK is the name, a placeholder.
Could be any clan being cav only.

I respect GK for their teamplay.
They know how to play their class.

What Lactose wants to point out, I am sure, is the fact that ranged and especially cav are really important for the outcome of a match.

The numbers are way more sensitive then for example infantry.

Why?
Well its about the strengths these classes naturally have.
Once a critical mass of ranged or cav is being passed, its more or less hopeless for the opposition.

Cav awareness is bad since 2010.

1. There isnt enough pikers, hoplited etc.
2. The vanilla sounds make you paranoid, i assume few use more metal sound, which makes it a lot easier (I do).
3. Without a headset, even more paranoia is needed to see cav early enough.

So the whole point is, as far as i get it, to stop ranged and cav to surpass a critical amount in one team.

And I admit, I am all +1 towards that.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 12:41:43 pm
mate,  i think the one far most rage inducing thing in this game is if an enemy can attack you whilst you cannot touch him,  which is understandable.

thous,  the rage against ranged and cav. 

now,  in a situation where skilled high level characters are in a position in which they can attack with almost no counter,  ofc it will induce rage.
this is the case with a hand full of your HAs especially ("untouchable"),  and together with them melee cav.  thanks to this hand full,  the enemy is so distracted that lesser skilled cav also have an easier job,  no matter what class.

all in all,  the team with more ranged and/or cav can produce constant pressure on the enemy,  without being in real peril if that enemy is mostly inf,  especially not shielded inf.

pointing this out only to end the "gk this gk that" shit,  and get back to topic:

the balance is broken,  often,  not always.  and the easiest solution would be to do a class balance with almost the same priority as the clan balance.
as had been said before.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 12:45:36 pm
all in all,  the team with more ranged and/or cav can produce constant pressure on the enemy...

this is so much to the point that ill go ahead and quote it. 
it explains paranoia,  distraction,  unease and the breaking up of team play and formation at some point.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BlindGuy on September 10, 2012, 12:47:57 pm
thank you thank you , ill be signing autographs.


Sry, who are you?


Christo man, the problem is STILL not the noobs on the horses, its the OTHER team, the ones being destroyed: Same thing when BYZ would faceroll the server: 10 players working closely together to pick off lone men is always going to tip the balance, because THERE IS JUST NO WAY to stop 80% of randoms just holding W down at round start and mindlessly wondering off looking for the enemy. One by one they are ganked by clanned ganksquads. The only irritating think about the GK is that they are such nobodies its hard to spot which ones are the dangerous ones, when they get me its because I have just killed  2 or 3 horses of their worse players who have screamed for help from their better mates, who lance me as I kill off their dismounted bros.

ALSO: WHY O WHY do infantry goons STILL chase after a horseman who is baiting them out of formation? I dont get it: even with 3/39 build you CANNOT EVER CATCH A SUMPTER, stop running after horses, they arent dangerous if you just stand together, walk together, and each time they get close simply stab them, they are nerfed, and can only get you unaware or by bump-gank.

Kids will always try to play the easiest way, you cannot blame them, but its the zerglings who dont understand that you fight together or die alone that cause the problem, not the kids who take advantage of the mindless goombas.


CLASS BALANCE: Not really possible tbh: If I put 3 points in riding, am I cav? What if I dont spawn a horse? Gear selection takes place AFTER balance, so what if I have 3 shield skill and am a polearm-1hand hybrid, but spawnd without a shield and with a pike and sword? Am I shielder? 1hander? Pikeman? What if I am dedicated 2hander and I chose to grab a crossbow that round? Am I 2hander? Ranged? There are no classes that can be defined by a machine in cRPG.


EDIT: GET A SHIELD and some footwork: STR builds get raped by horsemen, I LOVE 2hander spam, but I dont do it anymore, I look at the battlefield, and I see that REAL LIFE history has lessons for us: Sure, you can be a GREAT swordsman, axeman, pikeman, but what keeps you alive in battle is a shield, a spear, and a nice sharp sidearm, but again, these are NOT tools that can make the mindless win: you MUST teamplay to keep alive, you MUST be always scanning for where the ranged is concentrating and keep watching for horses, sure its not easy, but a nice 21/18 hoplite build goes where they want, kills horses, archers, ganks beautifully with max range facestabs on busy enemies, can keep preasure on in the shieldwall, can backpedal from strengh builds and lead them out of formation for own teams ranged to take down, and can turn and run when the situation goes tits up.

The cav spam sucks, but you must evolve or die.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 10, 2012, 12:51:38 pm
Signed, but it's still epic to get chased by 15 GK's on my poor sumpter.  :lol:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 12:58:34 pm
this is so much to the point that ill go ahead and quote it. 
it explains paranoia,  distraction,  unease and the breaking up of team play and formation at some point.

Agreed but its dealing with this that matters : teamwork :) But I completely agree

this is the case with a hand full of your HAs especially ("untouchable"),  and together with them melee cav.  thanks to this hand full,  the enemy is so distracted that lesser skilled cav also have an easier job,  no matter what class.

Though I agree that they are difficult to deal with. They go down pretty fast if archers shoot their horses, which is more than possible as foot ranged have greater range, power and accuracy. I am literally as we speak being headshotted off my horse by Robinhoods constantly. Do it isnt impossible. It is just once again no archer is in the mindset to do something for the team. Gk archers avoid archers that see them because they know its a too dangerous. Hopefully a shield wall should offer enough cover but with the little damage a ha does they are not more than a nuisance.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: NejStark on September 10, 2012, 01:03:40 pm
Think Lorenzo said it well a few posts up.
I was playing last night while this all happened, and there were quite a few open maps being played, but conversely at times there are quite a few city maps. I play open maps on horse, skirmish and try to help the team win. Thats a lot of fun. City maps (and some villages where the hotspots are too built up, ort the maps are too hilly) - I play them on foot, get a few arrows off and get knocked the fuck out rapidly. Meh. Its a video game, and I enjoy it regardless.

Last night as mentioned in the OP, the balance did however put all us GK's on the same team. Brilliant, I want to play together. It did also put maybe 3-4 other cav players on our team that I remember, most of whom weren't using a clan banner. To resolve this and stop the range, perhaps after banner balancing is done,  a class balance of players who don't have any pals online can be done. Just a suggestion.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Osiris on September 10, 2012, 01:06:17 pm
Just be happy that most gk are mediocre cav, they are annoying on mass but most of the cav players i really feared dont play much and are spread across the clans, its not like your facing leed tommy torben tuonela etc on the same team everyday :-P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Renegat on September 10, 2012, 01:13:54 pm
Quote
A full GK stack will probably win most of the time on very open maps like ruins and the open deserts etc. but there's also urban/city maps in the rotation, don't forget. They pay for their efficiency on open maps by dedicating themselves to being cavalry, but it also brings that bad part, they'll have difficulties when the maps are less favourable.

How many city map on Eu_1? Port assault ... Nord Town ... and the market thingy. Ok, we have 3 city maps on EU_1. Now i wonder how many open maps there is on EU_1. I couldn't count them, but there is much more of them and there's a city maybe every 6 or 7 maps. So having fun every 6 or 7 maps for an inf isn't enough (imo) to let him think that maps are "balanced" (i saw someone (stupid or hypocrite, dunno) saying that there is 50% city maps ... Pure bullshit).


Anyway, there's no point in discussing about crpg's problem on this forum, our wise and clever (i let you guess if it's ironical or not) devs who surely play a lot said that the amount of cav and ranged on EU_1 is totally ok.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 01:22:14 pm
You forgot to mention half of the village maps, commercial city, swadian riot and a tonne more. I seriously think you are not playing on the same server I am. Eu1 right?
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: IR_Kuoin on September 10, 2012, 01:32:52 pm
Remove Chagans GK friendly maps, problem half-solved  :lol:


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Renegat on September 10, 2012, 01:36:27 pm
You consider village map as not cav friendly? lol
I mentioned the commercial city (only 1 map as far as i know, if there's more then it appears realy rarely), swadian riot? Dunno this one (actually i never check maps' name, but if it's one which appear a lot, then it's that i don't see it as a not friendly cav map).

If the number of 50% city map like some idiot said was real, i would stop arguing with poeple like you immediatly, cause i would at least have fun every two maps.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Kafein on September 10, 2012, 01:48:14 pm
The most determining factor for the cav-friendliness of maps is how ridiculous the terrain is. And a very large number of village maps are extremely hilly.

A GK stack on a map with either building spam (they block sight which is good for cav, but they give camping spots which is bad) or lunar terrain slopes will die horribly.


Infantry and archer clanstacks don't suffer from the same dependance on map design.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 01:54:30 pm
Teamwork is the solution to all of your problems. The thing is, we know our advantages and disadvantages and we act upon them as a clan. That might be a problem for those who lack the info about basic mechanics of the game or lack the need for team play.

There have been many incidents where we failed to win on open maps, just because the enemy team was well organized. It is very funny tho, in these situations similar people tend to troll us about how hard we failed although it was an open map.

I kindly ask you to read guides and explanation on forums, get involved in team play and stop pointing at clans.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Kerrigan on September 10, 2012, 01:56:54 pm
Time for a short but serious response.

I agree that cav being stacked is not a good thing and I can see how it can make people rage. Two days ago I think we had about 8 GK in one team and another like 5 random cav with us while the other team had only 3 cav. The way people play on cRPG these days, if the map is right (like open plains) this will most likely mean the team with the most cav is going to win. That night we happened to get like 3 to 4 nice open maps and we destroyed the other team which caused people to rage. On the other hand, if it were a village map the team with the cav stacked would certainly have the disadvantage(if the people are smart enough to go into the village) and lose. Trust me, I am not going to lie here, we lose plenty of times when stacked together, especially in village maps, city maps and random steppe with hills. The only maps where we excel are the flat maps and really, I do not see them very often on EU_1. Even when on an open map, if the enemy would play as a team they can beat us, for sure. Have confidence in yourselves people.

I do not know how they are supposed to fix this balance thing though, because I reckon many people want to keep the clan banner balance. But I guess there is a solution to be found.

Also ranged being stacked should be fixed.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Corsair831 on September 10, 2012, 01:57:24 pm
tbh the only problem i have with GK is their HA's ... i have no problem with their 12 lancers that try and attack me, because i know i can take a few horses down with me, but against 3, 4 HA's, there's just nothing to be done.

They just all shoot one target dead, then move on, then move on, then move on ...

what do you do against the HA's ?!

P.S. i think i finally understood why the romans lost their wars to the huns ;)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 01:58:40 pm
(click to show/hide)

lactose is not pointing fingers and raging about you,  but saying that because of banner balance,  it happens that a clan heavy on one class disrupts the highly banner dependent distribution of classes amongst teams.  this thread,  although appearing at first as so,  is not about you.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Kafein on September 10, 2012, 02:09:18 pm
lactose is not pointing fingers and raging about you,  but saying that because of banner balance,  it happens that a clan heavy on one class disrupts the highly banner dependent distribution of classes amongst teams.  this thread,  although appearing at first as so,  is not about you.

I say that's a problem that shouldn't be one.


A balanced army should have the advantage over any class stack. But it doesn't seem to be the case. Sometimes it's very clear like when you have 5 archers vs 5 anything else at the end of a round, sometimes proving it would require statistical evidence.

Fixing clan stacking is not about focring teams to be class-balanced, it's about making class-unbalanced teams weak.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 02:12:27 pm
what do you do against the HA's ?!

Bribe Donation works so I have heard ...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 02:16:24 pm
(click to show/hide)

furthermore its highly dependent on skill and level of the class.  1 bagge is worht more than 5 mid class archers.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BlindGuy on September 10, 2012, 02:50:14 pm


There have been many incidents where we failed to win on open maps, because enemy team had no afks and peasants in spawn to gankrape from horseback like we all love to do in our clan.


Fixed it for you, free of charge man, thats one you owe me.


Back on topic: RENAME the thread, GK are not an issue other than their ganking of slow spawners, they have maybe 2 or 3 decent fighters, and almost every clan HAD better cav players. Unfortunatly, ppl DO get bored of this game or playing cav, so now players see GK as being good. I will now quote the egyptian god Lord Osiris.

Just be happy that most gk are mediocre cav, they are annoying on mass but most of the cav players i really feared dont play much and are spread across the clans, its not like your facing leed tommy torben tuonela etc on the same team everyday :-P

This. Cav are not an issue, BALANCE is an issue, but since there is NO way a program can decide what class a player has made with his character without generalising and STILL getting it wrong, balance will never be fixed. Just fight, do your best, at least now you can get valour when on a team of zergnubs by just doing your thing, playing your game.

EDIT: have to add Riddaren to list of feared cav, he is fucking KING of being where you dont want him, doing what you dont want him to do :P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Tindel on September 10, 2012, 03:05:24 pm
All rounds in battle are won by the team with best infantry tactics.

Archers and cav are support classes, they can neither take nor hold ground.
A group of infantry playing together will fucking demolish a archer heavy or cav heavy team.

Go to EU1 and spectate some rounds, see where in the round the losing team fails or where the winning team wins.
I can promise you its not because OMFG WE GOT PWNT BY CAV NERF NERF.
It is because people run around like headless chickens and get ganked.

If the archers stick with the infantry the cav will be shot to pieces or die in vain while trying to attack a unit of infantry.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 03:07:55 pm
Fixed it for you, free of charge man, thats one you owe me.
Oh c'mon are you telling me that enemy team wins by the help of peasants and afk guys? What happened to your input for your team dude  :D
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 10, 2012, 03:16:11 pm
A good cav, like me, rides his sumpter "W" down, no matter what map, untill he either dies or gloriously wins the round for his team.My point is that nearly áll the maps are cav friendly, only one map i can think of thats anti-cav -- the one with the basement, i think people already said it but other then that one theres no real anti cav map, unless we get a random plains with crazy hills and such.  :lol:

This is as a reaction to the cav map discussion, not what the op said. :)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zanze on September 10, 2012, 03:33:49 pm
Counter Cav? Bring a spear. (Or ranged attack, heavens forbid)
Counter HA? Bring a Shield.
Counter both? Bring Both.

Oh, annoyed you have to change you playstyle completely to bring a shield AND spear? All that means is that cav and HA are the rock to your scissors. Move along. NA had the same problem when Pro was a big stack of courser riding lancers. They would win every round until people started bringing throwing and spearmen started popping up.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: MB passionately on September 10, 2012, 03:35:35 pm
Was there yesterday evening (guess it was the reason for this thread), as cav and hoplite in both teams, therefore as predator and prey

But 90% of time i was prey. Rarely had 2 hours of crpg like that. No chance, no fun, heavy repairs, no xp. Was so frustrated I went to shitty siege...Why most of the games sucked?

Was a combination of factors:

-a lot of cav friendly maps (like shitty oasis with no cover for inf)
-a lot of GKs (doesnt happen often but yesterday >10 players of them)
-no other major inf clan as counterpart in the other team
-few players <60 at the end, therefore in one team more than 50% cav

To condemn GK in general, dont know, heaven to hunt with them, hell to spawn late or be a shieldless trooper encircled by them

Blame the game? The game is not able to cope with those "factors", coming all together

Class limit would be an idea 70% inf, 15% ranged, 15% cav, but that was discussed already
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Protemus on September 10, 2012, 03:45:00 pm
say whatever you want,I still demand blanket ban for all GK's for that raping yesterday
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 10, 2012, 03:51:28 pm
Do we... um... really upset you that much guys ? :( should we not do any teamwork would this help community ? should we let them kill us so they can finally get a smile on their face ?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 03:59:21 pm
you dont seem to get. this is not purely about banner balancing clans together. but baner balancing class together

On one side we have mercs that gang up. They show a pretty good display of teamwork, there are some with an insane amount of skill.
But you can overcome them

On the other we have GK that gang the same class on one side + randoms. there are some skilled lancers but many of them are just another cavplayer lost in the mass taking advantage of the high mobility, bump damaging, one hitting lance all that covered by the constant sound of hooves...and that is just near impossible

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torost on September 10, 2012, 04:00:20 pm
I got raped by GK yesterday.. was sorta impossible to do anything, lances and head-seeking-arrows from every direction.

And thats ok.. they play to win..

What bothers me is that GKs teamplay no matter what team they are on.
They softplay eachother when on opposite teams. Not uncommon, many clans do this... and it is a shamefull practice.

The most frustrating part is when I work hard to take down a GKcav, dehorse him.
And one of my teammatesGK .. runs towards them ... to offer them their horse..and all my work was futile..since he is back up again on a full health horse.

I wont say that this is SOP..but I have seen it enough times in the past to distrust the GKs on my team when the main GKclan is on the other.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 10, 2012, 04:09:55 pm

I do not know how they are supposed to fix this balance thing though, because I reckon many people want to keep the clan banner balance. But I guess there is a solution to be found.

Also ranged being stacked should be fixed.

That's the problem is the banner balance.  Teams should TRY to balance by the banner, but only after first making sure that the classes are relatively even first.  If there's 30 cavalry on a server, and 25 of them are in the same clan, then at least 10 of them should be on the enemy team.   The team balance system is fucking shit and I've been (and others have been) saying it for a long time.

These are public servers after all...c-rpg is the only game I know that encourages pub stomps. 
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joker86 on September 10, 2012, 04:20:10 pm
Then points I want to add to this discussion, as my first post got ignored by everyone except of Cracka:

1st: telling people to change their class (take a shield/spear) is absolutely inacceptable

2nd: yes, in other games a balanced army is best, but in cRPG, for various reasons, your army grows stronger the higher the percentage of archers and/or cavalry. That's a fact.

3rd: you can't expect random players to organize themselves and play in a team. At least not on short or medium term.

4th: why does the enemy team have to play tactically, but the cav stack has only to ride around and stab?  :?

5th: not only open plain maps are well suitable for cav. Town, forest and ruin maps often are even better

6th: the additional effectivity which is added by mounting a horse is balanced a tiny little bit by the riding skill investment, and the rest is balanced by upkeep. Then the devs decided to implement the marketplace...  :rolleyes:

7th: the game mode is an additional problem, because it involves killing the entire enemy team. This leads to a lot of fail behaviour, and grants the more mobile and more flexible classes like archers and cavalry advantages over infantry.

8th: the developers completely ignored that teamplay part of cRPG. All they added was that shitty flag feature and those incredibly annoying sounds, which are totally worthless. Another reason to not expect teamplay on public servers

9th: it should indeed be possible to balance both by class and clan. I wrote down an example for a system here. (http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/autobalance-is-awful/msg431813/#msg431813) It might be a little bit outdated (as the point of "faction balance" got implemented actually), but it should still be valid.

10th: please DO care about the fun of others, as it directly affects the fun YOU have.

Summary to my solution:

- implement class balance next to clan balance (it is possible)
- change the game mode to something which favours infantry more, like conquest
- add a commander feature which works well with random players
- balance cavalry another way than by upkeep, but without further nerfing it, the stats of both archers and cav are heavily UP. (Doesn't make them UP on the servers, though. Yes, it's complicated  :mrgreen: )
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on September 10, 2012, 04:25:09 pm
a class balance would be better, so if there are 30 cav on one team they get split so its 15 on both teams, and what banner they have should have no effect on what side they go on because when one team has the clan that's stacking one team its never fun if the other team only has random people regardless of what clan is on the other. I don't really have a problem with GK's because

1. I'm a former GK ^^
2. I hardly play on EU_1 I play on smaller servers
3. I don't enjoy cRPG much anymore so I hardly play anymore  :P

even if your a hoplite its hard to take down more then 1 cav when around 5 are charging you because even if you stop one, the time you do that the next one will bump you then they all have a stabbing frenzy at you then even IF you survive they just repeat the process.

Just be happy that most gk are mediocre cav, they are annoying on mass but most of the cav players i really feared dont play much and are spread across the clans, its not like your facing leed tommy torben tuonela etc on the same team everyday :-P

Take away tommys fairy horse and his just a standard random cav player, Torben is better I guess but Id still fear the more unknown GK's more and tuonela.........isn't he like some guy from mercs or something? idk.

1. Heav lances were designed to not break, even great lances. This was only for jousting tournaments to reduce the impact and even to make the impact more effectful. However, that's realism and not balance.
2. Agreed.
3. I assume in the nerf direction, in which case only the Arabian. Others are fine.

For the first time ever I actually have to agree with bjord  :? *sigh* can't believe this........ his actually talking sense.........what the fuck is cRPG coming to?  :lol:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 04:40:26 pm
a class balance would be better, so if there are 30 cav on one team they get split so its 15 on both teams, and what banner they have should have no effect on what side they go on because when one team has the clan that's stacking one team its never fun if the other team only has random people regardless of what clan is on the other. I don't really have a problem with GK's because

1. I'm a former GK ^^
2. I hardly play on EU_1 I play on smaller servers
3. I don't enjoy cRPG much anymore so I hardly play anymore  :P
I'm grateful you hardly play anymore, now if we could just change that hardly to never.
even if your a hoplite its hard to take down more then 1 cav when around 5 are charging you because even if you stop one, the time you do that the next one will bump you then they all have a stabbing frenzy at you then even IF you survive they just repeat the process.
With a big amount of ath you can dodge most cav as an inf, and while yes, even as a hoplite it's extremely hard to do well against a GK style gank of lancers then it is still mostly easier than to survive a gank of equal size from melee players.
Take away tommys fairy horse and his just a standard random cav player, Torben is better I guess but Id still fear the more unknown GK's more and tuonela.........isn't he like some guy from mercs or something? idk.
This is pure bs and just you being to retarded to realize that the arabian really isn't that great, that destrier my old friends like you get to take half a guys health away in one bump even if you suck to hard to hit whith the lance, and that both the destrier and the arabian ain't got enough maneuver to really dodge arrows that great, I highly doubt any of the best cav could dodge more that many arrows from a guy like blackbow as all you need is a tiny amount of enemy prediction, to be shooting at medium or less range, and to be using arrows/bolts and not throwing weapons along with a decent aim and most guys dodges won't mean shit, TomMyyY is by far one of the best cav players out there and he could easily rape you and half of GK and you on a fucking sumpter if need be.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 04:45:30 pm
4th: why does the enemy team have to play tactically, but the cav stack has only to ride around and stab?  :?
The main reason the GKs do well is in fact because they rely heavily on teamplay, one by one they gank every player in the enemy team, but first after quickly getting all the easy kills like bad archers, peasants, and afks at spawn... ...I recall countless times where I've hit a GK HA with a throwing lance only to have him W key as fast as he can out of there and quite a few GK HAs arriving to gank me, and if I hit any one of them, won't really change much unless I headshot, as they'll ride off as a slightly injured but still fully functional HA and another guy will arrive to shot at me.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on September 10, 2012, 04:50:37 pm
-snip-

I forget how you suffer from a mental disability so I wont reply to your silly comments  :)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Assarhaddon on September 10, 2012, 04:51:56 pm
I was playing last night while this all happened, *snip*.. Last night as mentioned in the OP, the balance did however put all us GK's on the same team. Brilliant, I want to play together. It did also put maybe 3-4 other cav players on our team that I remember, most of whom weren't using a clan banner.

I was one of em .. and i have yet, not.. stopped.. laughing.  :mrgreen:

(click to show/hide)

More serious note:
I was playing against the team that had "all cav" aswell, and our team won some, lost some. (No more than usual, neither way.)
Yet to see the problem as HUGE this post seems to paint.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 04:53:18 pm
Apparently, we are an evil clan for some. I suggest them to open another topic like "GK-A" like AA and keep on whining there. I really wish this topic to come to a fair discussion ground, otherwise it is just becoming a fun topic for us.

And gentlemen, please before throwing poop at any other class, or claim it is easy mode, please try to play with it for a couple of weeks first. Otherwise you are just putting yourself in funny positions.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 04:56:08 pm
I forget how you suffer from a mental disability so I wont reply to your silly comments  :)
I forgot that you're somewhat of a retard and will just post something like the above when you can't make up an actual reply.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: NejStark on September 10, 2012, 05:01:11 pm
I recall countless times where I've hit a GK HA with a throwing lance only to have him W key as fast as he can out of there

nerf common sense
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Arrowblood on September 10, 2012, 05:01:33 pm
I dont want to hear the  whine if someone creates a pure archer clan with only rusbow and bodkins. Or a piker clan or....
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 05:05:26 pm
nerf common sense
I didn't state anything negative against it, just an example of GKs using teamwork and shit. (running is still gay though)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 05:05:47 pm
I dont want to hear the  whine if someone creates a pure archer clan with only rusbow and bodkins. Or a piker clan or....

the archer clan would be a great great whine inducer...  id actually like to see that : )
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: NejStark on September 10, 2012, 05:13:21 pm
the archer clan would be a great great whine inducer...  id actually like to see that : )
I'd like to see that too tbh. Thing I like about cRPG is the 'Deadliest Warrior' style scenarios, and this would be one on a small army scale.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Gurnisson on September 10, 2012, 05:16:04 pm
the archer clan would be a great great whine inducer...  id actually like to see that : )

People were raging hard when the fallens brought out all their archer alts. I can just picture the rage if it indeed was a dedicated clan where all the members had loomed stuff. :lol:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zanze on September 10, 2012, 05:16:34 pm
1st: telling people to change their class (take a shield/spear) is absolutely inacceptable

I'm not asking to change their class. I'm saying bring a sheathable spear to kill that horse that is charging you or simply shoo them away. San of Chaos brings a fauchard and does this. Does he use it for anything else? Is he a hoplite? No. He just stops horses with it because his steel pick cannot.

Bringing a sidearm does not change your class, it just makes you more malleable to the situation. If you play rock and refuse to bring a tiny pair of scissors to help versus paper, then you shouldn't be whining when paper wraps around you and beats you.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 10, 2012, 05:17:49 pm
People were raging hard when the fallens brought out all their archer alts. I can just picture the rage if it indeed was a dedicated clan where all the members had loomed stuff. :lol:

they also had that santa squad i think, all HA, dont remember if there was much rage about that one thou
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joseph Porta on September 10, 2012, 05:17:58 pm
I need 50 people to make an archer alt and play under the same banner!  :mrgreen:

Oh, and 25 HA's!  :twisted:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Gurnisson on September 10, 2012, 05:19:36 pm
Need the US_Cavalry to come back in force. That would be absolutely hilarious. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Teeth on September 10, 2012, 05:21:22 pm
Simple solution would be class balance. Put GK on one team and all the other cav on the other team, split up GK if necessary. Maybe you'd think it's unfair that GK doesn't get to play together, but it's not like they teamplay anyway. They are on average a bunch of killhungry hyena's, but then with 50 maneuver, the scum of the earth, evident from the amount of them at the enemy spawn within 30 seconds.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Malaclypse on September 10, 2012, 05:22:33 pm
Bringing a sidearm does not change your class, it just makes you more malleable to the situation. If you play rock and refuse to bring a tiny pair of scissors to help versus paper, then you shouldn't be whining when paper wraps around you and beats you.

While I can only agree and support things like this, adapting to situations, it is still pretty goddamned bogus that the primary factor in balancing teams is banner worn; balance should, if possible, try to stick people with the same banner on the same team, but when it is detrimental to team composition it's not a very good system. Ultimately class (attribute/stat allocation) should be a more important variable, hands down.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Fartface on September 10, 2012, 05:23:39 pm
I need 50 people to make an archer alt and play under the same banner!  :mrgreen:

Oh, and 25 HA's!  :twisted:
Il join you.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on September 10, 2012, 05:26:07 pm
Simple solution would be class balance. Put GK on one team and all the other cav on the other team, split up GK if necessary. Maybe you'd think it's unfair that GK doesn't get to play together, but it's not like they teamplay anyway. They are on average a bunch of killhungry hyena's, but then with 50 maneuver, the scum of the earth, evident from the amount of them at the enemy spawn within 30 seconds.

if i knew you would take the refusal in joining us so badly, i would make an exception for you teeth ;/
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 05:27:44 pm
Apparently, we are an evil clan for some. I suggest them to open another topic like "GK-A" like AA and keep on whining there. I really wish this topic to come to a fair discussion ground, otherwise it is just becoming a fun topic for us.

And gentlemen, please before throwing poop at any other class, or claim it is easy mode, please try to play with it for a couple of weeks first. Otherwise you are just putting yourself in funny positions.

battalgazi your acting more and more like an arrogant prick, seems like all this horseloving has gone up your ass

you comment is full of hypocrisy. I come up with a thread : there is an issue worse then having a clan stack on one side : we have a clan stacked on one side with all one class with it!

and what do i get like answers? your buttbuddies coming up with copy paste poem off internet and half witty remarks.youself came up with some useless post. So seriously before asking a serious talk, think twice

People don't like getting gang raped by cav, it's not fun and unfair. And when we say so, you act as moronic pricks just giving you an even worse image of youself and your clan

(yea now I'm pissed) I feel you bashibazouks!


Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 05:29:06 pm
They are on average a bunch of killhungry hyena's, but then with 50 maneuver, the scum of the earth, evident from the amount of them at the enemy spawn within 30 seconds.

Well this is just getting personal :P If anyone has been in the GK ts they will contest we are lovely caring people, we'd never say anything so mean about anyone else :( (Except Ninjas, cause ninjas can go fuck themselves for playing such a stupid class and then moaning it isnt good against cavalry :P)
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on September 10, 2012, 05:31:45 pm
(Except Ninjas, cause ninjas can go fuck themselves for playing such a stupid class and then moaning it isnt good against cavalry :P)
This.
And regardless how my old friendgy and noskillish most of them are they do use far more teamplay than most other clans.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 05:32:39 pm
Simple solution would be class balance. Put GK on one team and all the other cav on the other team, split up GK if necessary. Maybe you'd think it's unfair that GK doesn't get to play together, but it's not like they teamplay anyway. They are on average a bunch of killhungry hyena's, but then with 50 maneuver, the scum of the earth, evident from the amount of them at the enemy spawn within 30 seconds.

dont let a few dip moves generalize your opinion of gk.  if they dont have a veteran organizing them for massive teamplay,  at least a few of their experienced guys do work together.
they do more so than most clans tbh.   you maybe dont see it cause you dont hover around on a horse,  that does give me a great overview of whats going on.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

and now pls move away from gk. 

thread might as well be closed,  there`s a consensus on implementing class balance next to banner balance.
what more is there to say?
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: BattalGazi on September 10, 2012, 05:34:31 pm
battalgazi your acting more and more like an arrogant prick, seems like all this horseloving has gone up your ass

you comment is full of hypocrisy. I come up with a thread : there is an issue worse then having a clan stack on one side : we have a clan stacked on one side with all one class with it!

and what do i get like answers? your buttbuddies coming up with copy paste poem off internet and half witty remarks.youself came up with some useless post. So seriously before asking a serious talk, think twice

People don't like getting gang raped by cav, it's not fun and unfair. And when we say so, you act as moronic pricks just giving you an even worse image of youself and your clan

(yea now I'm pissed) I feel you bashibazouks!

Chill out dude, maybe your intention was to focus on class balance problem, which might be righteous, but it attracted all GK-haters to this topic. This is what me and my clan mates are making fun of. If you have put the problem in other ways, you would not be also targeted in our comments.

You started the rage, you have the right to be pissed off.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 05:38:29 pm
(yea now I'm pissed)

Don't be mean to Battal :( And that poem that we posted was a reference most would get. I believe it was from Tenacious D's 'Tribute'.

I do agree that class balance would be nice. No team should have all the cavalry, because we GKs want to kill cavalry too. But neither should one clan be told they cant play together because they play a class which feeds off the lack of common sense in the community.

- We know its difficult to get the public to play as a team.
- We know that by swarming a server we will dominate through being able to pick battles easily over the battlefield because the publics spread themselves so thin.
- We know that being killed by cavalry is infuriating. And I understand that as the victim you don't understand that your death was planned, executed and celebrated all in an organised fashion. We can't make formations like foot soldiers (if you can call them formations), instead we use our speed and communication to just wipe out each rambo until all that is left is a 1/3 of the enemy team. We identify and pick our fights. That is cavalry.

I tried hard with a hoplite group to make teamwork on a public server and it did happen. But you really have to shout it out to people. If you can get more than half your team to stick with you for a round, there is a good chance the entire team (or 95%) will stick with you the next round. If you want this GK swarm to have issues : do your part for teamwork, try and lead, stick with the team, listen to others. Dont do what is normal behaviour and just mindlessly wander around...


Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Turboflex on September 10, 2012, 05:47:21 pm
- We know that being killed by cavalry is infuriating. And I understand that as the victim you don't understand that your death was planned, executed and celebrated all in an organised fashion. We can't make formations like foot soldiers (if you can call them formations), instead we use our speed and communication to just wipe out each rambo until all that is left is a 1/3 of the enemy team. We identify and pick our fights. That is cavalry.

Don't be arrogant, lots of clans organize and use tactics your teamwork is not special. Massed cav tactics are most effective because cav is overpowered, being mounted is a huge powere enhancer to a character and has basically zero downside to counter all the positives.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 10, 2012, 05:53:34 pm
Can you fucksticks stop arguing about teamwork and how GK sucks, or how cool they are?

This isn't a GK problem, this isn't a teamwork problem, this isn't a problem with people not using the right equipment, this isn't a problem with cavalry, this is a team balance problem.

Stay the fuck on topic please (if you want any possibility of getting this problem resolved).
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 05:54:30 pm
Don't be arrogant, lots of clans organize and use tactics your teamwork is not special. Massed cav tactics are most effective because cav is overpowered, being mounted is a huge powere enhancer to a character and has basically zero downside to counter all the positives.

Its not arrogant. As you said, lots of clans use tactics, so why shouldn't we? All I am saying is we use tactics. I'm not gonna go into the mass cav OP thing for the 100th time, your opinion. Just pointing out that its unfair to say we dont have tactics, just because we are on horse... you erm horse... mounted... rider... Cav-ist :(
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 05:55:19 pm
Can you fucksticks stop arguing about teamwork and how GK sucks, or how cool they are?

This isn't a GK problem, this isn't a teamwork problem, this isn't a problem with people not using the right equipment, this isn't a problem with cavalry, this is a team balance problem.

Stay the fuck on topic please (if you want any possibility of getting this problem resolved).

But its fun :P And also this is essentially a GK hater thread atm and we just love constructive criticism in our little clan  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: dodnet on September 10, 2012, 05:58:38 pm
We can't make formations like foot soldiers (if you can call them formations)

You can't make formations on foot either, because everyone runs at a different speed...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lorenzo_of_Iberia on September 10, 2012, 06:00:21 pm
You can't make formations on foot either, because everyone runs at a different speed...

Agreed. The best thing we've done as PL is get a shield wall to advance in a line with short pushes - semi works but cant say its fluid :P
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Siiem on September 10, 2012, 06:00:27 pm
now This problem is worsened By GK. Unlike all other clans that accept all classes, GK, accepts ONLY cav

GK are more of like lice, they make it filthy and annoying... but are in no way actually dangerous or deadly in any way shape or form.

EDIT---

I should say I have actually never experienced this many GK's on one server though... But I see how it can and will be boring as fuck for the enemy team.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 06:02:34 pm
Chill out dude, maybe your intention was to focus on class balance problem, which might be righteous, but it attracted all GK-haters to this topic. This is what me and my clan mates are making fun of. If you have put the problem in other ways, you would not be also targeted in our comments.

You started the rage, you have the right to be pissed off.

sigh...the fact that you compare my thread(that seems to be a : I say loudly, what everyone thinks quietly), that is really pointing out a problem with slight influence of desesparation, to just some basic gk hate post is just....why do i even bother...

You wish i hated GK, I know you thrive on that, I wont give you that pleasure, stop getting high on your own farts.

anyway back on topic...
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Overdriven on September 10, 2012, 06:04:22 pm
O this thread  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on September 10, 2012, 06:04:58 pm
So no? People are going to keep arguing with GK and they will keep defending themselves, all the while the white elephant in the room is pointing and laughing hysterically?

Can you just lock this this shit, and put a team balance thread up in the suggestions forum (which has probably been done 20 times before). 
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Joker86 on September 10, 2012, 06:07:27 pm
Can you fucksticks stop arguing about teamwork and how GK sucks, or how cool they are?

This isn't a GK problem, this isn't a teamwork problem, this isn't a problem with people not using the right equipment, this isn't a problem with cavalry, this is a team balance problem.

Stay the fuck on topic please (if you want any possibility of getting this problem resolved).

You are right there, it's a teamwork problem for a good part, but teamwork alone can't solve it. The game mode is the biggest problem.

Because even if one team holds formation, stays behind the shielders and the pikemen, the cavalry and archers will circle around them, and they will keep on losing players. The problem is the goal of killing the enemy team. If one team is holding formation (which means it consists mainly of infantry), then the other team, which could consist mainly of archers and cavalry, could still keep on attacking. They would be less effective, and perhaps they would take a few casualties, too, but if they are cautious they will still be able to fight to some extend, while the enemy "testudo" will only be able to react, wait and try to dodge. And as soon as the flag pops up, they would have to move there, which means a) they hold formation and come too late, or b) they break up formation and get horribly slaughtered.

As all classes are different in the way they are killing or can get killed, it is incredibly stupid to make killing the ultimative goal and expect everything to be balanced. Change battle mode into conquest mode, and see how archers and cavalry get demoted to mere support roles, instead of the initial source of momentum for a team.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Thomek on September 10, 2012, 06:09:49 pm
Just nerf cav already. It's simply no fun.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Siiem on September 10, 2012, 06:10:54 pm
NERF!
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Torben on September 10, 2012, 06:11:06 pm
successfully derailed
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 06:13:21 pm
ARGH, Thomek is here. My thread is bound to go into pure cav hate  :cry:

meh, going to open a topic in game balance discussion.

Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Thomek on September 10, 2012, 06:13:38 pm
I mean.. I'm "borrowing" oberyns horse and lance atm.. Tried it on my lvl23 alt. My first kill was just wait around for a few secs, then couched lance straight into enemy group frontally. Killed a skilled player, then surprisingly came out alive on the other side with the arabian.

Never had an easier kill..

ARGH, Thomek is here. My thread is bound to go into pure cav hate  :cry:

meh, going to open a topic in game balance discussion.

Thing is, seems only me and a few others have the balls to say it like it is. Cav are OP, easy, and degenerates gameplay for every other class. It's not even fun to play.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 06:15:16 pm
I mean.. I'm "borrowing" oberyns horse and lance atm.. Tried it on my lvl23 alt. My first kill was just wait around for a few secs, then couched lance straight into enemy group frontally. Killed a skilled player, then surprisingly came out alive on the other side with the arabian.

Never had an easier kill..

Whay have i done to my thread  :(  :(  :( :cry:  :cry:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Thomek on September 10, 2012, 06:17:06 pm
Basically, your thread is about that its too much cav, and this is what happens eventually when a class is OP, and grants easier kills than other classes. This is not GK's fault or the autobalancer.

I can imagine that this teambalance exploit was the long time goal of Chagan :) Now he has reached it, and the community is smaller than ever... Someone needs to take action here.

And about lack of teamwork.. It should not be so that one class should be forced to teamwork to be as powerful as another class that don't have to teamwork to get the same level of efficiency.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Overdriven on September 10, 2012, 06:18:15 pm
I liked Torben's description of GK as a swarm a while ago. We are ruthlessly effective at finding the weak players, using HA's to set up kills for the melee cav and swarming on single targets so they are completely fucked all without communication a lot of the time. I see a lot more team play from us than many others. GK rape train for one. If even a small amount of infantry learnt how to work together like that they'd be fine. I've seen our alternate hoplite clan hold out against cav plenty of times. It just requires the right tactics.

Anyway it's rare enough that many GK are on EU1. At least the times I've been on anyway  :P Maybe I should play again...I do love setting up pikemen for lancers to kill. Seems rather satisfying.
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: JennaHaze on September 10, 2012, 06:18:21 pm
tl;dr
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Siiem on September 10, 2012, 06:19:53 pm
We are ruthlessly effective

 :lol:
Title: Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on September 10, 2012, 06:24:13 pm
http://forum.meleegaming.com/game-balance-discussion/cav-stacking/new/#new