Author Topic: The cav problem, Induced by GK  (Read 9011 times)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2012, 02:42:51 am »
+6
Pike, Long Spear. Problem Solved  :D

Useless comment. You can't expect people to change their class, otherwise it would be completely unreasonable to offer other equipment and skills to choose from on the website.

Anyway, regarding the op. I don't think cavalry is overpowered, and I don't think it's any problem with the banner balance and having the majority of one class on one team.

Nobody said cav was OP. But in a rock-paper-scissors-system, which is basing on the fact that all entities have the same chance of killing someone and being killed by someone, you have serious issues as soon as you have ten rocks fighting five scissors and five papers, because there won't be enough papers to stop the rocks in time, and then the rocks will smash everything. The same mechanic applies for archers, too. The only exception is infantry, as - in difference to the other classes - they both lack mobility to run away and flexibility in which target to attack. Archers and cavalry can support each other even without teamwork, infantry can't. A linearly growing percentage of infantry increases the effectivity of the team linearly, a linearly growing percentage of archers and/or cavalry increases it exponentially. There's the difference and the main problem.


You can still if you play well and try to organize the team. It won't work all the time, but once you get an urban map then the GK team will have a real problem getting multipliers at all. I don't see anyone complaining about that though, when they're able to steamroll the other team who consists mostly of cavalry who's obviously a bit weaker on the ground.

A full GK stack will probably win most of the time on very open maps like ruins and the open deserts etc. but there's also urban/city maps in the rotation, don't forget. They pay for their efficiency on open maps by dedicating themselves to being cavalry, but it also brings that bad part, they'll have difficulties when the maps are less favourable.

First of all, with the current emphasis the developers put into organizing tactics and leading teams (which is... err... zero?) you can't really expect the other team to always play with their mind and have equal chances. I tried it, and there was a time I expected it, but I gave up. Most cRPG players just play for their personal duels, not for winning the battle. I see tons of gameplay videos where melee fighters are only moving towards the first target they see, in a straight line, neither looking for cav or archers nor what the rest of the team is doing. It is pretty frustrating, and I am starting to be one of those who always claim that humanity consits of 90% idiots. At least. You don't see anything else than autowalking Rambo-lemmings, of which most should be allowed to use those parking spaces with the man in the wheelchair sign on them. That is why "organize your team" is not an acceptable answer for someone who DOES care for winning the round, which puts him in a minority in cRPG.

Then there is the other fact that we have very very few maps which are ONLY city maps, but a lot of rather open maps which are well suitable for cav. To say that it is fair and cav has to pay their prize, you would need a percentage of 50% city street maps. But you don't, so it is unfair most of the time. And by the way, cav does also not really bad on those maps. At least not as bad as they do well on open maps.

____________________________________________

And I find it quite symptomatic for the cRPG community how none of the GK players showed that he actually understands the concerns of some players, and that he can feel with them. It's only about being as effective as possible, and growing the own e-peen by collecting kills, instead of actually feeling like a community which holds together and is aware of the fact, that you need the other players to be able to have fun, because fighting bots is not really comparable. So people need to learn that caring for other people's fun means securing the fun for oneself. But see my paragraph above, and of what 90% of humanity consists of.  :?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 02:59:07 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Ptolemy

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2012, 02:52:25 am »
+2
...once you get an urban map then the GK team will have a real problem getting multipliers at all. I don't see anyone complaining about that though...

The reason they don't complain is because they lose their x5 for one map, then it's another open map where cav dominates again. Just means that they have to lose the horse for a few rounds (thus lowering their repair costs in the process). I don't think that cav are OP (except couches, they should be blockable somehow), it's just that there are so many of them now that it's hard - even with an organised team - to do anything about them. Really this is a balance problem coupled with a map selection problem. If we had less of the flat, open maps then we'd have far less of a problem with cavalry.

Offline Turboflex

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2012, 04:09:51 am »
+3
The prob is that cav is overpowered. As the original poster points out cav is the cheapest "hybrid" to pick up. Out of 89 skill/attribute points a lvl 30 char has to distribute, it costs 5 and zero WPF. This is way cheaper then picking up 2 melee skills, or a ranged ability.

So not only is it very cheap, but it's a huge power enhancer. You gain massive mobility increase, cav bumping knockdown ability, and fight on horse while it takes damage, then when it comes down you fight on as infantry with 94% of pure infantry potential.

This OP-ness of cav is acknowledged, and is supposed to be balanced by cost. But since you can sell loom points easily for 500k, if you really wanna fund a money losing cav gen it's pretty painless and cost is no issue. It really needs an ability nerf, my suggestion is rider takes heavy balance on fall, this would add big downside to riding, cuz currently there's very little.

Offline Malaclypse

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2012, 05:40:28 am »
+1
The prob is that cav is overpowered. As the original poster points out cav is the cheapest "hybrid" to pick up. Out of 89 skill/attribute points a lvl 30 char has to distribute, it costs 5 and zero WPF. This is way cheaper then picking up 2 melee skills, or a ranged ability.

So not only is it very cheap, but it's a huge power enhancer. You gain massive mobility increase, cav bumping knockdown ability, and fight on horse while it takes damage, then when it comes down you fight on as infantry with 94% of pure infantry potential.

cRPG needs to add CLOP-tier (you know the drill) controls for cavalry to increase difficulty curve.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2012, 05:58:55 am »
+4
Quite the opposite what we do in Fallen. We hunt especially each other if we are on different teams :DDD. I attack damn everyone in the opposing team, no matter who it is. But who am I to judge if someone picks their fights by some strange standards...
Few things are more satisfying in this game then killing your own clanmate  :twisted:
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2012, 06:18:28 am »
+1
It's not a cavalry problem, it's a team balance problem...the problem is that banners are weighted more heavily than classes/equipment, which is a problem in a public server.

And I never liked those fucks on your team who don't attack the enemy because they're in the same clan, that's retarded.  I'm with Fallen...in every game whenever I'm on the enemy team as my clanmates I always target them if I have a choice of enemies.

Useless comment. You can't expect people to change their class, otherwise it would be completely unreasonable to offer other equipment and skills to choose from on the website.



Just ignore people who say shit like that...the real issue is that people need to change their tactics, and who they are fighting with.  You don't need to pick up a pike or a bow to combat cavalry or enemy ranged, but you can certainly stick with people who can hit the enemy ranged, or who can stop the enemy horses.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 06:22:19 am by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline dorvalis

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2012, 07:16:04 am »
0
i agree with idzo on this one when i play i dont come for good score or many kills.. i come to play with my epic clan mates and have insane amounts of fun  :D and teamkill them in the end and say that it is bannerbug/autorelease ofc.

so when i get killed by a couching lance and Latviano asks me "why so dead geezer?" then i know that i failed this round  :D but then when it happens to Latviano or idzo or phase the next round, its all ok again :D

PS: same goes for archers - headshot "nice catch geezer 10pts."  :D :D :D
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Offline Vibe

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2012, 07:42:48 am »
+2
Horseman myself:

>> join EU1
>> check scoreboard
>> 20 GK on enemy team
>> play something else
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 07:46:07 am by Vibe »

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2012, 08:06:51 am »
0
Horseman myself:

>> join EU1
>> check scoreboard
>> 2040 GK on enemy team
>> play something else
Fixed.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Vibe

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2012, 08:22:41 am »
0
Fixed.

Eh, even 10 more cav on one team is enough to break the game, especially if they're eez mode lancer cav.

Offline Angry_Bag

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2012, 08:42:20 am »
0
i have been playing on foot for the last 6 respecs!
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Offline Torben

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2012, 09:04:58 am »
+2
Quite the opposite what we do in Fallen. We hunt especially each other if we are on different teams :DDD. I attack damn everyone in the opposing team, no matter who it is. But who am I to judge if someone picks their fights by some strange standards...


fallen ts.
ramses:  now watch out for torben.  he will hit you within the first few seconds,  and he will hit you hard.  ok,  move out!

torben (lances) ramses.

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2012, 09:06:14 am »
+1
Pikeman here. I play on EU2, to not get shot or bumped to death.

Last i played on EU1 and faced this cav horde, i was simultaneously getting shot and lanced from multiple directions, despite having teammates around (who received the same). Pike/long spear doesn't help, it just makes you slower and puts a big target on your head.
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Nothing you can do about it. Strength in numbers.

Taking second biggest banner block might soften the blow on EU1 and EU2, but good luck doing that without having to go trough tedious clan initiation and pledging.
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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2012, 09:12:30 am »
0
Cav limit to teams should fix the problem.. or equal balance
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Offline Torben

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Re: The cav problem, Induced by GK
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2012, 09:17:59 am »
+5
Cav limit to teams should fix the problem.. or equal balance

ranged as well thuough.  seriosly.  a team full of ranged.  ahrg.
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