cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:07:25 am

Title: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:07:25 am
[True Story]

le me:
24 str
7 IF
 = 73 hp
54 Body armor

le derp archer:
1 arrow in the arm: half hp gone

[/True Story]

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(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 17, 2012, 02:08:19 am
fu polelord!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:08:52 am
ouSS with u, u no archer
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on June 17, 2012, 02:09:59 am
le xbow bolt?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:10:43 am
shhhhhhhhhhh
its an arrow
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on June 17, 2012, 02:11:35 am
(click to show/hide)
EAT SHIT BITCH!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:16:36 am
EAT SHIT BITCH!
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Bitch
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Rebelyell on June 17, 2012, 02:26:19 am
it is xbow bolt

and that is way to op
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 17, 2012, 02:26:36 am
 Ah, for all we know that was a mw arbalest  :D

Why the hell are you still alive??? Buff ranged nao!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Gurnisson on June 17, 2012, 02:27:46 am
Archery damage is extremely random (or it's maybe just the armor soak that's extremely random)

Sometimes an archer only takes 1/5 or 1/4 of my health, sometimes up to 80 %. I had Cup1d two-shot me with a horn bow when I had 50 armor, 27 str and 9 IF without positive speed bonus or height advantage. That's ridiculous, but I also had archers dealing 1/10 in the same gen, also ridiculous.

On my horse xbow alt I've had rus bows one-shot my arabian to the ass while running away and I've also been running around with 4 arrows in it.

If the damage was less random, I would be more happy. You never know if you can afford to take an arrow or not now, sometimes the damage is pitiful, sometimes over the top :?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 17, 2012, 02:40:39 am
A blanket nerf is the only sensible solution.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:41:53 am
Ah, for all we know that was a mw arbalest  :D

Why the hell are you still alive??? Buff ranged nao!
(click to show/hide)

Archery damage is extremely random (or it's maybe just the armor soak that's extremely random)

Sometimes an archer only takes 1/5 or 1/4 of my health, sometimes up to 80 %. I had Cup1d two-shot me with a horn bow when I had 50 armor, 27 str and 9 IF without positive speed bonus or height advantage. That's ridiculous, but I also had archers dealing 1/10 in the same gen, also ridiculous.

On my horse xbow alt I've had rus bows one-shot my arabian to the ass while running away and I've also been running around with 4 arrows in it.

If the damage was less random, I would be more happy. You never know if you can afford to take an arrow or not now, sometimes the damage is pitiful, sometimes over the top :?

+1
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Miley on June 17, 2012, 02:42:19 am
THAT'S A CROSSBOW BOLT, NOT AN ARROW.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 17, 2012, 02:43:40 am
WoTr archery and armor mechanics pls

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Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 02:49:49 am
THAT'S A CROSSBOW BOLT, NOT AN ARROW.

Then it needs a buff... no seriously:

We need one patch to nerf them all!!!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 17, 2012, 03:09:53 am
One patch to nerf them all

One patch to flag them

One patch to kick them all

And their accounts Lock them.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 17, 2012, 03:25:27 am
How to make cRPG fun again in 3 easy steps.

1. Buff everything.

2. Nerf archery.

3. Let the good times roll.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 17, 2012, 03:27:04 am
How to make cRPG fun again in 3 easy steps.

1. Buff everything.

2. Nerf archery.

3. Let the good times roll.
*Nerf Upkeep
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: GuiKa on June 17, 2012, 03:28:31 am
Archery damage is extremely random (or it's maybe just the armor soak that's extremely random)

Sometimes an archer only takes 1/5 or 1/4 of my health, sometimes up to 80 %. I had Cup1d two-shot me with a horn bow when I had 50 armor, 27 str and 9 IF without positive speed bonus or height advantage. That's ridiculous, but I also had archers dealing 1/10 in the same gen, also ridiculous.

On my horse xbow alt I've had rus bows one-shot my arabian to the ass while running away and I've also been running around with 4 arrows in it.

If the damage was less random, I would be more happy. You never know if you can afford to take an arrow or not now, sometimes the damage is pitiful, sometimes over the top :?

That is not random, a projectile damage is highly influenced by the vertical angle beetween you and you target. The higher and the closest the shooter is the more damage you take => i often one shot low armored people with my xbow when i'm in a high position.
Also as the armor reduce damage by a flat amount a 20% increased raw damage (behind few meter higher)  can result in double damage deal.

Aslo : Of course if you are moving toward the projectile you take a lot more.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aleskander on June 17, 2012, 05:09:48 pm
LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE LE


Stop whining, the archer probably had 7 PD and a longbow
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 05:21:10 pm
Stop whining, the archer probably had 7 PD and a longbow

so its ok for an archer with 7pd to 2 hit a semi-tank build? NERF THAT SHIT!!!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Momo on June 17, 2012, 05:23:01 pm
so its ok for an archer with 7pd to 2 hit a semi-tank build? NERF THAT SHIT!!!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: BlindGuy on June 17, 2012, 05:23:47 pm
Stop whining, the archer probably had 7 PD and a longbow

No, the archer didnt, because that is a crossbow bolt.

Also, I kinda like the randomness, at heavy armours, 55 and above, it should be more random, NEVER more dmg, Im not suggesting buff range, but sometimes have arrows do nothing, just a stun, cause IRL: Arrows sometimes penetrate a weak spot, sometimes bounce of plate, sometimes they knock ppl down.

But what is REALLY needed is a massive increase in arrow weights, or a debuff to athletics when you stat powerdraw, or a MUCH bigger slowdown to your character when you draw a bow, so no more kiteing. Archery isnt the problem, ranged NEED to be able to do dmg, just as melee can, but they should NOT be able to do it from point blank and run away with no risk. IRL I cannot knock an arrow while I sprint, or rather, I can, but it takes a long time, is fiddly, and prone to failure, because an improper knocked arrow, when you fire, will not fire, youll just destroy your left arm and be left where you started, with an arrow in one hand and the bow in the other, or sometimes, with a bow in one hand and an arrow on the floor at your feet.

so its ok for an archer with 7pd to 2 hit a semi-tank build? NERF THAT SHIT!!!

AGAIN, THATS A BOLT, not an arrow.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Miwiw on June 17, 2012, 05:24:12 pm
I usually get 2hit by 2h players, and that with enough body armor and medium hp. NERF?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 05:25:55 pm
I usually get 2hit by 2h players, and that with enough body armor and medium hp. NERF?

I call BS. Rejected!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Paul on June 17, 2012, 05:31:48 pm
Putting polelord on the to-ban list for being especially retarded.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 05:35:44 pm
Putting polelord on the to-ban list for being especially retarded.
umad bro?

Even Bagge approves of OP  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: BlindGuy on June 17, 2012, 05:40:50 pm
I call BS. Rejected!

If only. Strengh heavy builds can 1hit most archers, nice overhead from behind, armour below 30 body, 40 head will not survive a greatsword overhead
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 05:44:36 pm
If only. Strengh heavy builds can 1hit most archers, nice overhead from behind, armour below 30 body, 40 head will not survive a greatsword overhead

It is supposed to do that, but, I and many melee build I'm sure can confirm that light armored archers/xbows will take as many hits to kill as medium armored melee fighters. Which is completely retarded. don't let me start on this one.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on June 17, 2012, 05:55:01 pm
How to make cRPG fun again in 3 easy steps.

1. Buff everything.

2. Nerf archery.

3. Let the good times roll.
This
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 17, 2012, 06:32:17 pm
I usually get 2hit by 2h players, and that with enough body armor and medium hp. NERF?

But you can defend yourself from them, archer will shoot you all day long or until they're out of ammo.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: _GTX_ on June 17, 2012, 06:34:33 pm
I usually get 2hit by 2h players, and that with enough body armor and medium hp. NERF?

I would rly want to know which 2h players that is, and which armor values u have.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: BlackMilk on June 17, 2012, 06:41:56 pm
It is supposed to do that, but, I and many melee build I'm sure can confirm that light armored archers/xbows will take as many hits to kill as medium armored melee fighters. Which is completely retarded. don't let me start on this one.
no they dont.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aseldo on June 17, 2012, 06:43:16 pm
probably an arbalest shot, and for those saying "omg an archer 2 shot me!" it either was a MW longbow and MW bodkins or they headshot you once and then shot you again.

But you can defend yourself from them, archer will shoot you all day long or until they're out of ammo.

That's the risk you take going 2-hander or any non-shield build. More damage but more risk
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bagge on June 17, 2012, 06:44:26 pm
+1 op.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aseldo on June 17, 2012, 06:48:27 pm
I would also like to point out that as long as there are archers that go for maximum power instead of accuracy there's going to be people qqing about how they got 2 or 3 shot. Most realistic archer builds take 4-6 shots. Just because some freak of nature goes 9PD with MW longbow and MW bodkins 2 shots you doesn't mean to nerf archery. Thats like asking to nerf the flamberge because it one shots like 50% of the community. It's powerful, but not nearly as practical
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 06:52:36 pm
I would also like to point out that as long as there are archers that go for maximum power instead of accuracy there's going to be people qqing about how they got 2 or 3 shot. Most realistic archer builds take 4-6 shots. Just because some freak of nature goes 9PD with MW longbow and MW bodkins 2 shots you doesn't mean to nerf archery. Thats like asking to nerf the flamberge because it one shots like 50% of the community. It's powerful, but not nearly as practical

then they should nerf accuracy!
or make it more wpf based.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: BlackMilk on June 17, 2012, 06:54:40 pm
the only problem i as a shielder have with archers is that they run away from me all the time
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Saatana on June 17, 2012, 06:56:07 pm
Well, I have PD 6 and it takes like 4-6 arrows to kill any 2Hers wearing decent armors. I am using Rus bow with bodkin arrows. Also you have no right to talk about nerfing archery if you haven't tried being archer by yourself. Just make an STF archer character with 9 PD and try to hit something with longbow...
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ad1no on June 17, 2012, 07:11:05 pm
nerf
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 17, 2012, 07:17:54 pm
That's the risk you take going 2-hander or any non-shield build. More damage but more risk

But then the archer shouldn't be able to do the same sort of damage for a lot less risks.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Zisa on June 17, 2012, 07:18:18 pm
This thread is too early for the weekly whine.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 17, 2012, 07:20:21 pm
It was a crossbow.

Quit whining, you guys just want to run around with your two-handers and fight other two-handers. You wanna mitigate the threat of archers? Bring a fucking shield.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: peter_afca7 on June 17, 2012, 07:22:08 pm

We need one patch to nerf them all!!!

NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aseldo on June 17, 2012, 07:29:02 pm
But then the archer shouldn't be able to do the same sort of damage for a lot less risks.

We don't do nearly the damage 2 handers do...watch any strat battle and you'll realize that....
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 07:34:14 pm
We don't do nearly the damage 2 handers do...watch any strat battle and you'll realize that....

strat battle? lol
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bulzur on June 17, 2012, 07:36:39 pm
It is supposed to do that, but, I and many melee build I'm sure can confirm that light armored archers/xbows will take as many hits to kill as medium armored melee fighters. Which is completely retarded. don't let me start on this one.

One hit on a light armored archer/xbow : 90% life lost,  10% remaining, 2hits needed.
One hit on a medium armored melee fighter : 55% life lost, 45% remaining, 2hits needed.

It takes as many hits to kill the two, but it's definitely not retarded. You should adopt some boxer's style : One hit the archer, then sheath your weapon and boxe him to death. (1-5 hits, following gauntlet's weight and your STR). Fun garanteed, especially if it's a 0 PS with a hammer who constantly blocks you.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 17, 2012, 07:42:12 pm
We don't do nearly the damage 2 handers do...watch any strat battle and you'll realize that....

Didn't say archer did that much damage, just that they shouldn't miwi complained about beign two shotted in melee, as if archer should two shot melee.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Nightingale on June 17, 2012, 08:12:07 pm
 That sir is a bolt from a crossbow, Most likely, An arbalest master worked with Master work steel bolts to back it,  any time you lose half your hp from a ranged shot its either an arbalest or a head shot from some random archer. The fact that your actually whining about something from afar being able to hurt you concerns me. You mean some person could actually do damage from far away? Wow obviously needs a huge nerf, all ranged players need to shoot pillows and flowers at people.... Stop whining

Crossbows especially the arbalest takes time to reload.... just stop them from reloading and your set. Most do not have adequate melee stats to fight you for long term combat, even if they know how to block just as good as you. If they get a hit off it wont hurt as to where your lulgreatsword build will likely kill them in 1 swing
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 17, 2012, 08:17:47 pm
In that picture you are at open, you also do not carry any shield. You're in a battle, and you get harmed. That's quite natural. Those things tend to happen in a place where people are trying to kill each other. Mostly, you can avoid getting harmed by being careful; but all in all shit happens sometime. Sometimes you are backstabbed, sometimes you took an arrow to the knee. It doesn't have to be completely fair all the time. No one is accusing you for getting shot after all.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Wraist on June 17, 2012, 08:30:16 pm
Crossbows especially the arbalest takes time to reload.... just stop them from reloading and your set. Most do not have adequate melee stats to fight you for long term combat, even if they know how to block just as good as you. If they get a hit off it wont hurt as to where your lulgreatsword build will likely kill them in 1 swing

It takes me 3 swings to kill a long bow using archer with a bec [He also had to have at least 7 aths]. He could, on the other hand, one or two shot me
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 08:34:31 pm
It takes me 3 swings to kill a long bow using archer with a bec [He also had to have at least 7 aths]. He could, on the other hand, one or two shot me

It happens to me a lot too.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 17, 2012, 08:50:29 pm
ok i think i need to put in a rageanswear here.

Wanteds: You seem to be somewhat challenged so let me put this simple for you.

1. You didn't lose ½ your hp to a bow, you lost it to a CROSSBOW. There's is one hell of a differance.
2. Dont whine about range when your a 2h hand build since you've forsaken all defence against range when you went 2h without a shield on your back.
Still mad? Learn to dodge. If you see the archer it's easy to dodge the arrows (not easy to dodge crossbows).

I have to shoot a medium armor guy about 4-5 times that's maybe 21 str and i'm guessing at least a few points in IF to kill him.

Is it viable to nerf a class that requires everything put into it not to suck utterly (because let's be honest all you hybrids out there, hybrid archer sucks. alot.).

I think not.

I have alot to say here but i fear if i write any more i might resort to words that might be interpret as somewhat offensive wich would be unfortunate. So yeah.

LEARN TO PLAY 2H NOOB

 8-)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Herkkutatti666 on June 17, 2012, 08:51:23 pm
Usually Bow does more damage then crossbow(arbalest)  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 17, 2012, 08:53:40 pm
morso: No.  Just no.

I've never once been 1hit by a bow. actually they only do at most 60% from long bows +3 with +3 arrows with 8 PD.

Arbalests tho. I get 1hit every time. Even if they hit me in the leg or arm :(
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 17, 2012, 09:12:22 pm
morso: No.  Just no.

I've never once been 1hit by a bow. actually they only do at most 60% from long bows +3 with +3 arrows with 8 PD.

Arbalests tho. I get 1hit every time. Even if they hit me in the leg or arm :(

I've been 1 hit plenty of times...always funny when an arrow hits me in the eyeball during the first 20 seconds of a round. I don't complain about it though. I think "nice shot" and go look at the internet or something till the round is over.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Saatana on June 17, 2012, 09:14:01 pm
But then the archer shouldn't be able to do the same sort of damage for a lot less risks.
Well. I am archer with 0IF and light armor usually it takes 3 arrows from other archers to kill me, sometimes 4. And most of the time I get 1 hit by 2handers, even 1handers one hitting me aren't that unusual. And now you tell me archers do the same damage than 2hers? Bitch please. For some reason 2hers just seem to think they are suppoused to pwn everyone and nothing should be able to touch them.

E: Well yeah headshots are totally different though. Sometimes I don't even kill with 1 shot in the head, if they are wearing good helmet.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cup1d on June 17, 2012, 09:15:48 pm
same kids, same tears.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 09:52:40 pm
ok i think i need to put in a rageanswear here.

Wanteds: You seem to be somewhat challenged so let me put this simple for you.

1. You didn't lose ½ your hp to a bow, you lost it to a CROSSBOW. There's is one hell of a differance.
2. Dont whine about range when your a 2h hand build since you've forsaken all defence against range when you went 2h without a shield on your back.
Still mad? Learn to dodge. If you see the archer it's easy to dodge the arrows (not easy to dodge crossbows).

I have to shoot a medium armor guy about 4-5 times that's maybe 21 str and i'm guessing at least a few points in IF to kill him.

Is it viable to nerf a class that requires everything put into it not to suck utterly (because let's be honest all you hybrids out there, hybrid archer sucks. alot.).

I think not.

I have alot to say here but i fear if i write any more i might resort to words that might be interpret as somewhat offensive wich would be unfortunate. So yeah.

LEARN TO PLAY 2H NOOB

 8-)

So I have to go shielder or I have to stand on the field dancing for half an hour to avoid arrows while the archers keep kiting and laughing at my silly moves and slowly kill me dead?
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS I DONT EVEN...
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 17, 2012, 10:02:17 pm
He's NA, he doesn't know our pain.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Zerobot1 on June 17, 2012, 10:02:46 pm
No, you die, and you accept it. Because everyone dies.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 17, 2012, 10:11:32 pm
No, you die, and you accept it. Because everyone dies.
Now I understand. Thank you for opening my eyes. (with your righteous arrows)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tiger on June 17, 2012, 10:33:51 pm
As an archer, I expect my arrows to do a lot of damage with bodkins and rus bow, and my hard work to get 8-10 powerdraw.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 17, 2012, 10:38:42 pm
No.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 17, 2012, 11:09:21 pm
So I have to go shielder or I have to stand on the field dancing for half an hour to avoid arrows while the archers keep kiting and laughing at my silly moves and slowly kill me dead?
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS I DONT EVEN...

So you don't like that you can't chase down a guy with no armor, while you are wearing heavy armor? You don't want to be inconvenienced with having to actively dodge arrows? You don't wanna put a point into shield skill or use a 0 skill one and have the insufferable burden of carrying it in case you need protection from archers?

Poor you.

Yeah, nerf archers.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Arrowblood on June 17, 2012, 11:10:21 pm
Just close this stupid thread.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 17, 2012, 11:15:38 pm
Just close this stupid thread.

I like your avatar.

Shows archery as god intended. 

Not this legolas LARPer shit on cRPG.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 17, 2012, 11:22:57 pm
Well you (the community) say high STR is OP, then we see such cases quite often.

If you want to be able to manuever effectively in battle go for high AGI builds. So you'll get picked less easily by arrows this way. Seriously 24/15 tends to be easy target for archers.
You basically:
- just exchanged the manueverability with power
- by being twohander you exchanged the defence capabilites with offense capabilities.

Basically you have to get into close to be effective and that's mostly against infantry and cavalry. You can not be omnipotent. Learn ways how to use your advantages and not get overdriven easily by your disadvantages.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 18, 2012, 12:30:47 am
(click to show/hide)

and this

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 12:42:55 am
So you don't like that you can't chase down a guy with no armor, while you are wearing heavy armor? You don't want to be inconvenienced with having to actively dodge arrows? You don't wanna put a point into shield skill or use a 0 skill one and have the insufferable burden of carrying it in case you need protection from archers?

Poor you.

Yeah, nerf archers.

no I dont like it cause: he's faster than me, he's unreachable to me, he is attacking me from a safe distance, and he is doing at least as much damage to me as I can do to him.
Now someone with the slightest of common sense would say thats not balanced!

There should be a bigger damage penalty for agi archers.
There should be a higher accuracy penalty for str archers.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 18, 2012, 12:47:09 am
Ahem. Well, if we want to talk balance, shield bump range needs to be increased, since shielders are supposed to be a counter to archers, yet they can practically push the bow into the shield and fire. That's bs. As is nocking arrows while running, and jumpshooting (back in EU1 atm).

That said, they could probably stand to be more effective vs horses, and the 0 slot equipment a bit better.

As for their damage, it's already on the low side really.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 12:51:41 am
well open a thread for that, who is stopping you. but try not to miss my point here.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Gurnisson on June 18, 2012, 01:01:41 am
Ahem. Well, if we want to talk balance, shield bump range needs to be increased, since shielders are supposed to be a counter to archers

No, just like pikes aren't a counter to cav. They both repel what people think they counter. Range counter cav, 1h+shield+throwing counters archers. That's a class that has its defense against archers as well as its offense against archers, that's a true counter. Dedicated shielders only have the defense against projectiles. If you don't believe me, then watch a native match. Shielders can't harm archers most of the time, but with 5-10 javs they're taking down archers like flies. And just like in native, archers are rarely able to have a shield and a bow and yet be very effective which makes throwing weapons a joy against them.

That's the sad part with native, the archers are so op that every infantry has throwing weapons. It's all one big ranged fest with one cav here and there.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Havoco on June 18, 2012, 01:20:34 am
No, just like pikes aren't a counter to cav. They both repel what people think they counter. Range counter cav, 1h+shield+throwing counters archers. That's a class that has its defense against archers as well as its offense against archers, that's a true counter. Dedicated shielders only have the defense against projectiles. If you don't believe me, then watch a native match. Shielders can't harm archers most of the time, but with 5-10 javs they're taking down archers like flies. And just like in native, archers are rarely able to have a shield and a bow and yet be very effective which makes throwing weapons a joy against them.

That's the sad part with native, the archers are so op that every infantry has throwing weapons. It's all one big ranged fest with one cav here and there.

Don't forget ninjas
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: BlindGuy on June 18, 2012, 01:23:34 am
There are no ninjas in native. Cant think of any main infantry class in native that has 0 shields...none. Its a ranged fest to be sure, but at least you can turtle it up. But then they get pretty large ammo count too...Its saddening.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 18, 2012, 01:33:55 am
no I dont like it cause: he's faster than me, he's unreachable to me, he is attacking me from a safe distance, and he is doing at least as much damage to me as I can do to him.
Now someone with the slightest of common sense would say thats not balanced!

There should be a bigger damage penalty for agi archers.
There should be a higher accuracy penalty for str archers.

No there shouldn't, you just need to quit whining. You decided to use a playstyle that affords you no counter to range. Bring a shield with you, how fucking hard is that?

"Oh noez, I can't reach archers because I decided to str crutch and wear heavy armor and I'm slow as shit and I'm too stupid to bring a shield that I could easily switch to when I need it and I didn't bother to put points in anything like throwing to hit fleeing archers"

And it's complete bullshit he is doing as much damage as a two handed guy. I wear light/medium armor and most archers barely do shit to me. I use a shield and I have throwing and I still get shot to death and one shotted in my eyeball...you know what I do? I go look at the internet or something till the rounds over, I don't nerdrage and go make stupid threads on the forums.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 18, 2012, 01:36:36 am
"Oh noez, I can't reach archers because I decided to str crutch and wear heavy armor and I'm slow as shit and I'm too stupid to bring a shield that I could easily switch to when I need
Retard.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: OpenPalm on June 18, 2012, 01:37:18 am
Time and time again, players think that classes should be balanced around their one particular class and not around all the classes as a whole.  It's the #1 source of whine in this forum.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 18, 2012, 01:39:16 am
You have 4 slots.

2 hander, sword and shield.

4 slots.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 01:45:00 am
No there shouldn't, you just need to quit whining. You decided to use a playstyle that affords you no counter to range. Bring a shield with you, how fucking hard is that?

"Oh noez, I can't reach archers because I decided to str crutch and wear heavy armor and I'm slow as shit and I'm too stupid to bring a shield that I could easily switch to when I need it and I didn't bother to put points in anything like throwing to hit fleeing archers"

And it's complete bullshit he is doing as much damage as a two handed guy. I wear light/medium armor and most archers barely do shit to me. I use a shield and I have throwing and I still get shot to death and one shotted in my eyeball...you know what I do? I go look at the internet or something till the rounds over, I don't nerdrage and go make stupid threads on the forums.

so your solution to this is that every infantry should sacrifice some of his points into unwanted skills to make up for the fact that archers are too damn op? well it seems that you are the stupid one here.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 18, 2012, 01:47:27 am
Time and time again, players think that classes should be balanced around their one particular class and not around all the classes as a whole.  It's the #1 source of whine in this forum.

QFT.
Time and time again I'm reminded by a signature I saw on here a while back. Something along the lines of, "I'm paper. Nerf Scissors. Rock is fine."
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 18, 2012, 01:49:56 am
so your solution to this is that every infantry should sacrifice some of his points into unwanted skills to make up for the fact that archers are too damn op? well it seems that you are the stupid one here.

There are 5 shields that require 0 skill points to use.

And yes, if you don't wanna be so butthurt about archers that you feel the need to make a thread about nerfing ranged, when there is already a thread about it on the first page, then yeah...you might wanna change your play style.

And how are those skills "unwanted" if you are bitching about archers? Get tools to beat archers. You're kinda thick man.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 18, 2012, 01:50:42 am
so your solution to this is that every infantry should sacrifice some of his points into unwanted skills to make up for the fact that archers are too damn op? well it seems that you are the stupid one here.

Archers aren't OP, please get that through your head, obviously your logic is clouded by nerdrage. Archers do so little damage. And it's not hard to dodge them. I played poles 3 gens and 2h 2 gens, and honestly, archers are the least of my complaints, I never went above medium armor if that, and it usually took an archer 4-8 hits to kill me, not that he would even get the kill, usually just does damage then melee steals it. As a 2h, you should be the LAST one complaining about balance and OP weapon classes.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 18, 2012, 01:53:48 am
so your solution to this is that every infantry should sacrifice some of his points into unwanted skills to make up for the fact that archers are too damn op? well it seems that you are the stupid one here.

Well... you think archers should be nerfed to ground just because you don't want to adapt and learn, use more than couple slots or any other skills than one?

Ever tried to hide behind those shielders? Makes you life much easier. Or go around buildings and sneak behind archers. That you should do, if you don't want to sacrifice anything.

But no, you want to rush through open fields and smash those puny archers face. Archers clearly are op if they catch you doing that.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 01:55:39 am
There are 5 shields that require 0 skill points to use.

And yes, if you don't wanna be so butthurt about archers that you feel the need to make a thread about nerfing ranged, when there is already a thread about it on the first page, then yeah...you might wanna change your play style.

And how are those skills "unwanted" if you are bitching about archers? Get tools to beat archer. You're kinda thick man.

5 shields that require 0 skill? which will break with a fart? u are really retarded u know?
and stop posting here and go to that other threat if u have nothing but insults to share...
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 01:56:56 am
Well... you think archers should be nerfed to ground just because you don't want to adapt and learn, use more than couple slots or any other skills than one?

Ever tried to hide behind those shielders? Makes you life much easier. Or go around buildings and sneak behind archers. That you should do, if you don't want to sacrifice anything.

But no, you want to rush through open fields and smash those puny archers face. Archers clearly are op if they catch you doing that.
no i dont want archers to get nerfed to the ground, where did i said that? anything else?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 18, 2012, 01:59:55 am
IF they get nerfed any more, they would be almost useless. It's hard enough already for them. There's already and always have been (even when they used ladders to climb up roofs) many ways to beat them and for that you don't need to invest single point in skills.

And you say shield is "unwanted" skill for you, but still you whine that archers beat you? Doesn't look too "unwanted" skill for me in that situation.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 18, 2012, 02:02:06 am
5 shields that require 0 skill? which will break with a fart? u are really retarded u know?
and stop posting here and go to that other threat if u have nothing but insults to share...

Yeah maybe so, but it's one less arrow you have to take. Not to mention, generally when archers choose a target, they choose someone without a shield, so just having one already makes you less of a target.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 18, 2012, 02:03:20 am
5 shields that require 0 skill? which will break with a fart? u are really retarded u know?
and stop posting here and go to that other threat if u have nothing but insults to share...

They can take several arrows. You don't seem to comprehend that you can't pick a 2 handed guy, str crutch and then bitch because you get shot with arrows. Your op was a crossbow bolt anyways. You are full of shit about how much damage arrows generally do. I usually wear a Byrnja or other light/medium stuff and most of the time arrows do insignificant damage. Arrows are not bolts.

And like Applesauce said, 2 handed is one of the most overpowered things in the game. You're just being a whiner.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Havoco on June 18, 2012, 02:04:10 am
There are no ninjas in native. Cant think of any main infantry class in native that has 0 shields...none. Its a ranged fest to be sure, but at least you can turtle it up. But then they get pretty large ammo count too...Its saddening.

I know, Im posting mostly just to tally how many nerf archery threads are on the forums mostly. Though ninja tactics do work sometimes...
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 18, 2012, 02:10:10 am
They can take several arrows. You don't seem to comprehend that you can't pick a 2 handed guy, str crutch and then bitch because you get shot with arrows. Your op was a crossbow bolt anyways. You are full of shit about how much damage arrows generally do. I usually wear a Byrnja or other light/medium stuff and most of the time arrows do insignificant damage. Arrows are not bolts.

And like Applesauce said, 2 handed is one of the most overpowered things in the game. You're just being a whiner.
done with your crying? You are obviously butthurt about STR builds but you are in the wrong threat to cry about it. its about archers here not STR builds and niether shielders.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 18, 2012, 02:11:14 am
Ah now I get it. 2h/pole should be only build in game that can beat everything else with ease and without investing skills in several locations. No counters, just facerolling around battlefield. Sounds cool ye?

They have been whining about cav in past, cav got nerfed. They have been whining about archers for whole history, and archers have been nerfed several times already.
Now they still whine, because there's still something in game that they can lose to and want it to be nerfed as well.

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 18, 2012, 02:19:11 am
Being a STR build-2h-Lordly Milanese Plate-crutching-loser-bastard-punk, I think archery damage is pretty damn low... against people who play like I do. I honestly had more trouble with archers back when I was rolling a 12/27 shielder build. The problem wasn't so much not getting hit, it was how much of my health I lost when I *did* get hit. The sheer number of arrows I can take with my 10 Ironflesh far offsets the ability to block every arrow that's fired off in front of me.

STR build 2her? Dodging arrows is easy even if you don't know where they're being fired off from and even if you get hit the damage is very minimal.

AGI build shielder? Even if you can block any arrow and your shield can take all the arrows in the world, you're going to take one or two arrows in the back at some point, be it due to lack of battlefield awareness or simply the archers being positioned well, and that'll be the end of it.

I feel like bows should be more useful against high armor values simply because of how necessary it is to be able to do that if you want to get any kills with a bow. As far as archery balance is, I find that to be the only problem. They've been nerfed more than enough.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 18, 2012, 02:40:11 am
Well. I am archer with 0IF and light armor usually it takes 3 arrows from other archers to kill me, sometimes 4. And most of the time I get 1 hit by 2handers, even 1handers one hitting me aren't that unusual. And now you tell me archers do the same damage than 2hers? Bitch please. For some reason 2hers just seem to think they are suppoused to pwn everyone and nothing should be able to touch them.

E: Well yeah headshots are totally different though. Sometimes I don't even kill with 1 shot in the head, if they are wearing good helmet.

FOR FUCK SAKE I AM NOT SAYING ARCHERS ARE DOING THE SAME DAMAGE AS 2 HANDERS I AM SAYING THEY SHOULDN'T, AS MIWI IMPLIED

Edit: I am a 1h player, riddle me that and l2read.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Sultan Eren on June 18, 2012, 02:43:52 pm
The problem is,
*Everyone has a ranged weapon, since xbows require no skill.
*Running-archer problem should be fine after that stamina shit.
*Even if i right-click with that fucking +3 board shield (which is a door), they can still shot me in gaps.
*And yeah sometimes they do a lot of damage.

My armor values are 52h 65b 57l and I am a 30 str/10 ironflesh tank.
YET
I DIE BY 3-5 BAGGE ARROWS/BOLTS, SOMETIMES ONE-SHOT IN THE HEAD.
AND I STARTED TO THINK LIKE, IF I DIE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT WHAT WOULD OTHER PLAYERS DO?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: peter_afca7 on June 18, 2012, 02:46:03 pm
NERF ARCHERY
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cicero on June 18, 2012, 02:47:20 pm
AND I STARTED TO THINK LIKE, IF I DIE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT WHAT WOULD OTHER PLAYERS DO?

Look at that noob he died by headshot

Oh retard died

OMFG HEEEEADSHOT

Darkness...

We can increase examples
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Sultan Eren on June 18, 2012, 02:56:06 pm
Regardless of my high STR plus IF and my 65 body armor, i die i mean.

PS:SG
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 18, 2012, 07:08:58 pm
You die by 3-5 shots, which is more than ok. Getting shot 5 times in round... you have to do something seriously wrong and it takes plenty of time to shoot shielder that many times.

And yeah... when archer is shooting half of his quiver at you, he's getting only one kill. While you run around smashing people and kill several in that same time. All is fine.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 10:29:34 pm
This thread is fucking stupid.

Why?
Because archers suck, alot.  They are seriously weak and shitty. I keep trying to play one and you CANNOT KILL ANYTHING.

Agi build archer can hit targets, but deals really low damage.
Str build archer cant hit shit, so deals no damage (duh)

Ive tried most builds with different amount of sucess and archer is the worst by faaaaaaaar.


One year ago when i started to play crpg, archers wasnt quite so bad, you could actually kill people.
But after a year of nerfs,  naaaa its just frustrating to try.


I think 1% of my deaths are from arrows,
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 18, 2012, 10:31:13 pm
This thread is fucking stupid.

Why?
Because archers suck, alot.  They are seriously weak and shitty. I keep trying to play one and you CANNOT KILL ANYTHING.

Agi build archer can hit targets, but deals really low damage.
Str build archer cant hit shit, so deals no damage (duh)

Ive tried most builds with different amount of sucess and archer is the worst by faaaaaaaar.


One year ago when i started to play crpg, archers wasnt quite so bad, you could actually kill people.
But after a year of nerfs,  naaaa its just frustrating to try.


I think 1% of my deaths are from arrows,

this is why balance shouldn't be designed around shit players, you can't play the class then blame balance, when PD leaning mw rus bow builds with mw tatar/bodkins (especially leveled past 30) are the most broken class in the game, absolutely, by far
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 10:37:56 pm
You make an excellent point, balance should not be around shit players.

Who the fuck dies from arrows?   Probably shit players,  tards without proper armor and a shield.


Why then you are asking for death arent you?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 18, 2012, 10:52:28 pm
You make an excellent point, balance should not be around shit players.

Who the fuck dies from arrows?   Probably shit players,  tards without proper armor and a shield.


Why then you are asking for death arent you?

rus bow archers with mw gear 2 shot me in 60 body armor and 7 IF, they do more damage than heavy crossbows, fire three times as fast and are probably more accurate too.  sorry you don't have looms, levels, accuracy, build, awareness, and skill to be able to play your class closer to its "max potential" (which is where its horribly imbalanced)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 10:56:11 pm
Joe_schmoe with a 2hander is gonna 2shot you as well, he doesnt even need heirlooms.

Archers are good when they crutch on mw items,   thus they are weak as shit and need a buff.


Also,  get a shield. You wont get 2shot then
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 18, 2012, 11:16:15 pm
thus they are weak as shit and need a buff.
Also,  get a shield.

Idiot.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: TheAppleSauceMan on June 18, 2012, 11:17:25 pm
rus bow archers with mw gear 2 shot me in 60 body armor and 7 IF, they do more damage than heavy crossbows, fire three times as fast and are probably more accurate too.  sorry you don't have looms, levels, accuracy, build, awareness, and skill to be able to play your class closer to its "max potential" (which is where its horribly imbalanced)

Seriously? Give me a build and stat distribution for this build, because I have 9 PD and don't two shot anything. So I'd love to be able to magically do this. Btw, I'm being completely serious. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to two shot you with said IF and armor unless a headshot is involved, so I'd love to play a build that can. Archery would be finally worth something.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:22:56 pm
Idiot.

cunt
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 18, 2012, 11:37:27 pm
cunt

Come back when your balls have dropped irl son.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: YnScN on June 18, 2012, 11:42:21 pm
People usually get confused whether they got "2 shotted" by an archer or by a crossbowman.

Archery is fine right now and it neither needs buff nor nerf.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Nightingale on June 18, 2012, 11:42:49 pm
You people are still going on about this?

This is a perfect example of I am Paper, nerf scissors, rock is fine. - as already said some place in this thread.

People will  :cry: when they die to anything. I for one Hate throwers think they are op as hell but I don't start threads or demand nerfs. Every class plays an important role in the game even if you hate it. This game is more about balance Each class Balances with another class or multiple classes, by nerfing one class you in turn buff other classes. which in return will force a nerf on the classes that received a buff then your back to the same problem. its much like a cycle
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 18, 2012, 11:46:23 pm
Joe_schmoe with a 2hander is gonna 2shot you as well, he doesnt even need heirlooms.

Archers are good when they crutch on mw items,   thus they are weak as shit and need a buff.


Also,  get a shield. You wont get 2shot then

You fucking inbreed moronic asshole, he gets 2 shotted without being able to fight back at all, how fucking retarded must you be to not be able to figure out that's slightly broken.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Arrowblood on June 18, 2012, 11:47:10 pm
make rusbow cut dmg :D
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:48:36 pm
Come back when your balls have dropped irl son.

come back when you got balls irl kiddo
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Nightingale on June 18, 2012, 11:48:42 pm
make rusbow cut dmg :D
It is cut damage.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Arrowblood on June 18, 2012, 11:50:50 pm
öhöhö
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 18, 2012, 11:50:56 pm
come back when you got balls irl kiddo

I lol'd. Just imagining the clap gif now.

Dickhead.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Nightingale on June 18, 2012, 11:53:27 pm
öhöhö
(click to show/hide)

But it is cut damage  :? unloomed its 28 C damage

Edit: without arrows damage being added
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:53:56 pm
You fucking inbreed moronic asshole, he gets 2 shotted without being able to fight back at all, how fucking retarded must you be to not be able to figure out that's slightly broken.

you cuntish bastardic mongoloid penis, he is welcome to fight back anytime, maybe by running up and attacking etc, using a shield or a horse or a throwing weapon.

As a person who prides himself on playing the worst possible idiotic crappy spec in the game, you should not insult other peoples intelligence maybe?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:55:55 pm
I lol'd. Just imagining the clap gif now.

Dickhead.


i lol'd, just imagine the facepalm gif now
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 18, 2012, 11:57:11 pm
Boys boys take this easy. We all are here to play a game, to have fun you remember? Not to do some archery vs 2handed wars.

Understanding others is the key element here I guess.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 18, 2012, 11:57:36 pm
1 shield skill shields won't cover enough to properly block, throwing without proper investement is only good for throwing inaccurate daggers in the back of kiting archers and we're talking about 2h infantryman, so the horse is irrelevant.

As for my class, there are way... way worst builds to play (my 13 shield skill alt springs to mind)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:57:56 pm
I dont play 2hander
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 18, 2012, 11:58:32 pm
Heavy board shield,  4shield skill.


best shield in game,
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 18, 2012, 11:59:39 pm

i lol'd, just imagine the facepalm gif now

I just looked through your past posts cos I don't even know who you are, and when i saw this, I realised that any argument you give is invalid, now, then, forever.

"We need more admins like nuffen, to enforce rules and teach the little children to behave like adults"


"Nuff" said.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: XyNox on June 19, 2012, 12:00:18 am
nerf torch !!!!!!11!!! also nerf long voulge !!!!!!11!!/38627678&/%$(
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 12:01:25 am
Heavy board shield,  4shield skill.


best shield in game,

Can't spare points for that.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Vodner on June 19, 2012, 12:04:00 am
Quote
This is a perfect example of I am Paper, nerf scissors, rock is fine. - as already said some place in this thread.
Rock paper scissors balance doesn't have any place in a game where you control a single character. Absolutely every single class should be able to kill every other class if played well.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 19, 2012, 12:05:54 am
I just looked through your past posts cos I don't even know who you are, and when i saw this, I realised that any argument you give is invalid, now, then, forever.

"We need more admins like nuffen, to enforce rules and teach the little children to behave like adults"


"Nuff" said.

I just DID NOT look through your past posts cos i dont give a fuck about you boy, its entertaining to watch your attempts to flame and be a e-thug toughguy.
Im serious,  its really funny.   Please dont stop, throw some more cool ass oneliners or phrases at me.

As for the nuffen quote,   only obnoxious assholes had a problem with him,    go figure eh xD

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: polkafranzi on June 19, 2012, 12:08:15 am
boy

Fail.

You must play my old friendcher on cRPG to keep replying like this.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 19, 2012, 12:09:51 am
Rock-paper-scissors is just nonsense.

That said, people should buy a shield before they start whining, but shield bump range should be increased somewhat, when you see an archer "push" the bow into someone's shield, that is just crap. And when someone like leoking with his 9 athl build, buckler and light gear can't catch an archer, that is just silly stuff. I would not mind if they were more effective in supporting roles (eg. shooting down horses and such) and perhaps had a better selection of 0 slot weapons but the kiting ability is over the top, esp. now with jumpshooting not yet patched on EU1, and nocking arrows on the run.

I mean, yeh, throwing + shield + sword did work well for countering them in old crpg but throwing hybrids took a good nerf from what I can see.

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Nightingale on June 19, 2012, 12:16:18 am
Rock paper scissors balance doesn't have any place in a game where you control a single character. Absolutely every single class should be able to kill every other class if played well.

Your right, but I was just using it as an example of balance  :|
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Taser on June 19, 2012, 12:18:08 am
Archery definitely is leaps and bounds ahead of normal archery when an archer has mw'd bow and arrows. But I don't understand why people want archery to be nerfed further. Archers already have to put everything into archery to do well consistently with their bow being their only way of dealing damage that has a limited amount of arrows to draw on.

If you want to nerf archery, say what about it is unbalanced and how you think it can be fairly rebalanced. A lot of people just cry nerf, as shown by the dozens of nerf archery threads, without putting forth any plan to nerf it, whether its a good one or a crappy one.

People just hate dying to ranged and that's the sole reason some people want it nerfed. Some people do have a valid reason with people with a lot of IF and armor getting 2 shotted and etc. However without proof that it was an archer that did it that did not headshot him and a crossbow bolt may have hit him first, etc, it can't be said that archery is too strong. Plus there's other factors that help ranged like running towards them which does more damage and being above you, etc. A combo of the best possible variables that can assist the archer in getting more damage than normal can tip the scales to be able to 2 shot someone they normally couldn't.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Taser on June 19, 2012, 12:24:37 am
Rock-paper-scissors is just nonsense.

That said, people should buy a shield before they start whining, but shield bump range should be increased somewhat, when you see an archer "push" the bow into someone's shield, that is just crap. And when someone like leoking with his 9 athl build, buckler and light gear can't catch an archer, that is just silly stuff. I would not mind if they were more effective in supporting roles (eg. shooting down horses and such) and perhaps had a better selection of 0 slot weapons but the kiting ability is over the top, esp. now with jumpshooting not yet patched on EU1, and nocking arrows on the run.

I mean, yeh, throwing + shield + sword did work well for countering them in old crpg but throwing hybrids took a good nerf from what I can see.

Yeah it seems shield bump has been reduced in its effectivness. The kiting thing is understandable though since archery requires wpf to be put entirely into archery. Archers only put wpf into melee when they have spare wpf at 30 (if they're retiring at 31). So the nerfs have put archers who have been moving towards rus bows into favoring kiting since melee is most likely suicide over simply kiting. Archers forsake melee capability over ranged ability which makes them flee from melee. Aderyn is the best archer I can think of to fit this since he will NOT fight in melee at all over simply kiting. He's a good archer though. Hurts like hell.

Throwing took a huge hit but is still viable. I don't think it works well though if you try to hybrid it with melee. I haven't done a throwing build in a while though.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Havoco on June 19, 2012, 12:27:43 am
Nerf swashbucklers!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 12:40:18 am
 :cry: :(
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 19, 2012, 12:46:14 am
I agree that rock-paper-scissor is a horrible way to balance a game. It should be rock-rock-rock and then you fight and see who is the biggest motherfucking badass rock in the game.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cup1d on June 19, 2012, 12:49:34 am
I agree that rock-paper-scissor is a horrible way to balance a game. It should be rock-rock-rock and then you fight and see who is the biggest motherfucking badass rock in the game.


That's why melee only servers always empty?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 19, 2012, 12:55:29 am

That's why melee only servers always empty?
I do not know what you mean.

What I meant to say that everyone should have a basically equal opportunity to kill anyone regardless of their gear or build. That's true balance.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 19, 2012, 01:10:30 am
When your allowed to customize your own build, balance is hard as fuck.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 19, 2012, 02:18:44 am
As long as people rush through open fields and don't use brains, it's impossible to balance this game. When 2h is slashing at enemies, he can kill quite many and fast. Archer needs to empty whole quiver to kill couple targets as it is now.

There's only couple archers that actually do well out there by doing accurate headshots and x10 times 2h/pole guys topping scoreboards in every map (or cavs). Still 2h/pole whine most.

It's more l2p problem than anything.

Did you see those good 2h players whining here in forums when archers were able to camp roofs and were much more stronger than nowdays? No you didn't. Only those same losers are still whining that can't think outside of box. There have always been ways to kill archers and good players know how to do it. You can't balance archer vs 2h to be "fair and balanced" in open fields 1vs1 battle. And if you can't figure out way to beat archer... maybe you should buy shield or something to help with _your_ problem.

Only way I can see that could be "fixed" here is that archers should have better backup weapons. They are forced to run away currently as builds don't allow investing in melee skills enough. After that we can talk about nerfing ranged side, like limiting amount of arrows etc.

I see 2h/pole guys talking about that archers should be there as support role. Well.. why don't we switch this thing around and think it like... maybe 2h/pole should be that support? Move with shielders, kill cavs and stop solo rushing.

Or do you know any real life battles in history where 2h guys were rushing in front and killed horde or archers without problems? That doesn't happen even in hollywood movies. It's always shielders first or some backstabbing ninja action behind in archer lines.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 02:30:21 am
yep you're right, for the sake of balance the archer needs to be the most powerful 1 vs 1 class, the fastest class, the most damaging class, the best counter to infantry, cav, and ranged, and the class that gets the most powerful based on how many people are on one team of that class

as more archers start leveling up past 30 and fully looming their rus bow bodkin/tatar kids out, the game is getting unbelievably worse
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: _GTX_ on June 19, 2012, 02:41:28 am
As long as people rush through open fields and don't use brains, it's impossible to balance this game. When 2h is slashing at enemies, he can kill quite many and fast. Archer needs to empty whole quiver to kill couple targets as it is now.

There's only couple archers that actually do well out there by doing accurate headshots and x10 times 2h/pole guys topping scoreboards in every map (or cavs). Still 2h/pole whine most.

It's more l2p problem than anything.

Did you see those good 2h players whining here in forums when archers were able to camp roofs and were much more stronger than nowdays? No you didn't. Only those same losers are still whining that can't think outside of box. There have always been ways to kill archers and good players know how to do it. You can't balance archer vs 2h to be "fair and balanced" in open fields 1vs1 battle. And if you can't figure out way to beat archer... maybe you should buy shield or something to help with _your_ problem.

Only way I can see that could be "fixed" here is that archers should have better backup weapons. They are forced to run away currently as builds don't allow investing in melee skills enough. After that we can talk about nerfing ranged side, like limiting amount of arrows etc.

I see 2h/pole guys talking about that archers should be there as support role. Well.. why don't we switch this thing around and think it like... maybe 2h/pole should be that support? Move with shielders, kill cavs and stop solo rushing.

Or do you know any real life battles in history where 2h guys were rushing in front and killed horde or archers without problems? That doesn't happen even in hollywood movies. It's always shielders first or some backstabbing ninja action behind in archer lines.

first of all realism is not a way to balance c-rpg. But if we wanna go that way.... sure. If u get bumped by a cav, there is 50% chance u will be unable to fight. Which ofc depends on the speed and weight of the horse. :lol:

And u really wanna say that the 2h and polearms should be support roles ? The 2 most aggresive and most consistent heavy damage class? The ones who have to stay at the frontline, and because of that is constantly in danger, not only from 1 class, but pretty much all classes in the game.

The archers does not have a big ass 2h weapon like polearms and 2hs. But he does have a big advantage over 2h and polearms, range. Because of that range, he is not in an as big danger as the 2h and polearms. The only thing which can threaten him on a consistent basis is other archers, cav (if horrible positioned) and xbows.

Archers in melee is fine, they can defeat an enemy if it is needed. Mostly they just need to hold them of until someone else comes and help. So i dont see why archers should have better hybrid options than every other class. A big and heavy weapon is maybe not the best idea on an archer aswell, since it will decrease ur running speed. One of the best defenses and archer has against 2h, polearm and shielders is simple running. Do u know how hard it is to catch an archer? I have tried being slower than archer a million times, which means i will never be able to catch him, unless he gets distracted. So i would say thats pretty damn good 1v1 options right there.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 19, 2012, 02:46:06 am
As long as kiting is possible, archery will never be balanced.

Kiting makes archers the hardest class to kill in a common situation for all other classes with no exceptions. Currently archers have bad killing power, except when it comes to people that try to kill them, and that makes them very powerful as enemies can spend minutes trying to kill an archer.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: _GTX_ on June 19, 2012, 02:48:46 am
As long as kiting is possible, archery will never be balanced.

Kiting makes archers the hardest class to kill in a common situation for all other classes with no exceptions. Currently archers have bad killing power, except when it comes to people that try to kill them, and that makes them very powerful as enemies can spend minutes trying to kill an archer.

Bigger explanation of what i wrote, but yeah i agree completely. I mostly just give up trying to catch archers, and avoid them. Since if i run away from him, he chases me and shots me. If i chase him, and he is faster. I will just get kited, shot and die. So i think they are fine 1v1 against every infantry. Cav is a natural counter class if they are in the open, and that is their only real counter. Shielders is hard to kill for them, but they are very heavy. So they will nearly never be able to catch an archer.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 19, 2012, 03:36:24 am
Bigger explanation of what i wrote, but yeah i agree completely. I mostly just give up trying to catch archers, and avoid them. Since if i run away from him, he chases me and shots me. If i chase him, and he is faster. I will just get kited, shot and die. So i think they are fine 1v1 against every infantry. Cav is a natural counter class if they are in the open, and that is their only real counter. Shielders is hard to kill for them, but they are very heavy. So they will nearly never be able to catch an archer.

It's actually worse than that. Cav requires at least something to hide behind in order to catch archers unaware. If it's just open plains, horses die to arrows before they reach the archers, except if outnumbering by a large margin. That's why I wouldn't call cav a proper counter to archers.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 19, 2012, 03:40:12 am
Or do you know any real life battles in history where 2h guys were rushing in front and killed horde or archers without problems?

Archer formations when engaged did not "run away and shoot on the run", but rather stood and fought in melee. Or tried to run away outright, if the battle was lost.

But most battles were decided by infantry combat in the end. Archers when placed in good defensive positions were a great counter to cavalry (although, it did demand good defensive positions); if they could position themselves at the flanks of the cavalry charges, it was very effective. This tactic was often used by the English during the hundreds year war. Of course, archers caught in the open and unprepared were mincemeat (again, a lesson learned in the hundred year war).

As for 2h/polearms, they largely came with plate; onehanded weapons were not so effective at defeating it. Men at arms and knights fighting dismounted in the age of plate were using them very often.

No battle was won by archers running away and shooting on the run.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Gurnisson on June 19, 2012, 04:28:07 am
It's fun that 18/21 and 18/24 builds are faster than everyone but cav but still has the power to two-shot medium infantry if they have their stuff loomed, even when the infantry has loomed armor and gloves. Damage is fine, the endless kiting is not.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 19, 2012, 04:49:49 am
so what you jarheads are suggesting is for someone who wears just a tunic and a bow with arrows is supposed to run as fast as someone with medium armor and a big sword?

Get real.

Dont whine because you can't catch archers with your precious str build that tears everything up in melee.

Here's a hint for those of you without a brain: With full rusbow/bodkin(that's the LIGHTEST of arrows)/pickaxe and a tunic, strawhat and boot wrapping the total weight is 9.1. If YOUR total weight is under that and you have the same athletics then you are fast and can no longer be kited.

Fix'd.

Now stop your moaning kids, this is getting old.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 19, 2012, 04:53:16 am
Realism is overrated.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 04:59:00 am
almost no melee classes can afford to wear the lightest tunic, because they actually have to fight in melee and get closer to archers, 1 crosssbow or arrow or a single 1 hander left swing will instantly kill you with that light of a kit.  i did 15/24 with tunic over mail type armor and every ranged class in the game was still able to accelerate and kite me with absolutely no chance of catching up.

not balanced

arrows need 4-5x more weight, bows should have at least triple the weight, thats a start maybe
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 19, 2012, 05:03:19 am
Well, NERF CAV before nerfing anything else. Destroy the cataphracts, the warhorses, the arabian warhorses. Destroy them all.

Then we can talk about nerfing range (wich is the only thing that can kill decent cav)

Dont see why range is such a problem anyways, it's not like every archer is decent enough to even hit the target. There's like 4-5 on the NA server that can even remotely aim.

In unrelated news: Stop whining smoothrich. That's getting old too.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 05:09:08 am
Or do you know any real life battles in history where 2h guys were rushing in front and killed horde or archers without problems

Yes actually, because arrow would do fuck all to the guy with a 2h, because the guy with a 2h was wearing plate armor, they got rid of shield when someone figured that you could wear your shield all over your body and use your other to mess the fucker in front ever more efficiently.

If you point out Agincourt, you should inform yourself.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 05:24:39 am
I think ranged should do a shit ton of damage to cav to be honest, makes sense as a counter and I think horses need stat nerfs too so they aren't so damn survivable and maneuverable still and punish rider's mistakes, but I'm not "whining" I'm simply speaking for a large amount of the playerbase who are sick of the creeping power of ranged, namely rus bows and throwers.

More nerfs head towards melee classes then they ever do to ranged or cav anymore, something I don't really get, because cav and ranged make this mod much shittier to play when there is an abundance of them on the server.  Though a spam of long polearms is pretty much just as bad, so I'm glad that's being addressed.  Not speaking as a biased 2hander or w/e, they don't fuck up the server when theres too many of them at once at all, if anything they are just the easiest prey for every ranged, cav, and long polearm class
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Gurnisson on June 19, 2012, 05:30:35 am
I think ranged should do a shit ton of damage to cav to be honest, makes sense as a counter

True, archers should be strong in the damage, and not only against cav, infantry too. Arrows should hurt, quite badly. Problem is that they get the great kiting abilities on the side of the already good damage.

so what you jarheads are suggesting is for someone who wears just a tunic and a bow with arrows is supposed to run as fast as someone with medium armor and a big sword?

No, we don't.

We suggest that one shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too. Either good kiting ability or good damage, not both like you get with 18/21 or 18/24 loomed rus + bod. Vanilla archery is quite piss, but considering the amount of looms in cRPG at the moment, you need to balance after looms too. I guess one could buff bow/arrow damage overall while removing damage gain from arrow and bow heirlooming (accuracy, draw speed and good ammo count increase instead to make it good still)
2-3 shot fest while still being able to kite almost everyone but cav is quite ridiculous, just saying. Either increase arrow/bow weight or buff accuracy and draw speed while nerfing damage, I.E. making 8 PD builds dishing out the same damage as those 18/21 & 18/24 builds does now while still keeping or even increasing the accuracy, but making the amount of athletics generally lower. Yes, one could still make the kiting builds, but they would be weaker than they are now. There would actually be a choice, not just the regular min-max 18/21 & 18/24 that gives enough damage and enough speed to kite everything but cav and extreme ninja builds.

Also, I'm no strength build. 20/18 with 9.6 weight body armor is not what you call a slow tank. I still die mostly to archers (and rightly so being a piker, I'm not complaining about that fact but don't give me the 'get a shield' argument, since I can't because of the cRPG changes :)), but I still think it's quite a bit overpowered that those loomed archers rarely have to use more than 2-3 arrows on me with my lordly set when I often have to use 2 poleaxe swings/pike stabs to kill an archer.

If there were no bow looms around, archers would be without a doubt underpowered. With all those lvl >31 with fully loomed archery set archery is overpowered if anything. The gain from heirlooming archery gear is quite a lot better than what you get with melee weapons. :? But the damage is bearable, just nerf the running speed somewhat.

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 19, 2012, 09:32:57 am
Yes actually, because arrow would do fuck all to the guy with a 2h, because the guy with a 2h was wearing plate armor, they got rid of shield when someone figured that you could wear your shield all over your body and use your other to mess the fucker in front ever more efficiently.

If you point out Agincourt, you should inform yourself.

Well why don't you do so then? It actually works in this game. I played archer in my last gen, xbow before that (and 2h/pole before that if you want to know) and when I tried to shoot let's say.... vincent_ruth or other guy that always run in plate. I could shoot him like 5 times with MW bow and bodkins but still he kept running at me and I had no hope to just stand there and shoot, I could not fight back in melee (worthless melee weapon of archer vs plated flamberger....).... how you want to balance it out? Archer should just bend over and take it deep? If you use light armour, you can dodge better and it's not really that hard.

And archer doing 2-3 hits usually have to shoot like 10 times to make all those hits IF target is dodging even a little a bit or using enviroment. Sure, open field without protection and less than medium armored 2h running in straight line at archer.... easy prey. But is it archer that's op then? No, it's just bad player at 2h side. And sure, there's few good archers out there that can hit more accurately. But there's also good 2h players out there that you want to avoid in battles as melee. It can't be balanced, because players don't have same playing skill. When I play as 2h, I don't rush in archer tower without support unless I know I can sneak my way in. I don't go and try to kill that best 2h player 1vs1 because I know it would most likely be bad idea unless I'm lucky.

And... why I don't have any problems killing archers / xbows when I play melee? I'm just basic average player, but still have zero problems with it. I don't want to be OP out there and rush through open fields to kill those archer lines in other side (what some plated guys are actually doing in most maps and doing very well in it... why I don't see them whining here?). Also... I can catch up most archers when I play 7-8 ath builds. They can run as long as they want, but when they turn even a little bit I can take "shorter way" and catch them with ease. If not... who cares? Let them run and go around that building, archer is most likely there. Sure I die more easily if I solo charge without shield or plate, but that's how it should be. That's thing you need to consider yourself if it's worth doing it. Just like it's worth considering if you go toe to toe against that best cav or 2h player in server.

You 2h players just think that you should be able to run through open fields and have equal grounds against archers? What about using tactics and brains even for couple seconds?

I would like to know, maybe poll or something about this. Is it only str based NA players whining here or also EU players that in my eyes and experience don't have any problems with archers. Well I don't have, my friends don't have and we have been playing both melee _and_ archer. It's all just down to tactics.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 19, 2012, 09:56:46 am
Besides from the micro 1v1 occasions, archers have limited efficiency in battle. A good cav or good melee player can show it's efficiency much faster in the battle and turn the tides of battle to his team's favor.
Deny it or accept it, truth is not a democracy.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 19, 2012, 10:09:41 am
Besides from the micro 1v1 occasions, archers have limited efficiency in battle. A good cav or good melee player can show it's efficiency much faster in the battle and turn the tides of battle to his team's favor.
Deny it or accept it, truth is not a democracy.

Truth. While archer is spamming 10 arrows at one target (misses+hits), melee have already killed bunch of enemies. Archers as now are mostly softening targets and maybe killstealing few that are low in health.

And that preferring earlier to agincourt is quite hilarious. In that battle knights rushed open fields in mud without proper cav support and died just like they should do in this game as well if they act like that.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ubereem on June 19, 2012, 10:33:37 am
it is xbow bolt

pwned hahaha
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: HardRice on June 19, 2012, 10:44:27 am
pwned hahaha
10 pages late, bro.


Truth. While archer is spamming 10 arrows at one target (misses+hits), melee have already killed bunch of enemies. Archers as now are mostly softening targets and maybe killstealing few that are low in health.

And that preferring earlier to agincourt is quite hilarious. In that battle knights rushed open fields in mud without proper cav support and died just like they should do in this game as well if they act like that.
It's all archers were in the middle ages, support, they never slaughtered giant amounts of plated knights. (Like some people suggest happened at Agincourt.)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Sagar on June 19, 2012, 10:52:11 am
Nerf them hard. It is really funny that some archer can measure with medieval knight (I know its a game) but balance is really ridiculous. When come to close combat archers can only do one thing - run or they will be slaughter by knights. Also knight in heavy armor is not static target so a lots of arrows cant penetrate heavy armor or they just bounce of it.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 11:04:38 am
Well why don't you do so then? It actually works in this game.

If only... upkeep and a slug like speed means that either I'll be broke or that the archer will run and gun, because god forbid he actually takes less arrows for a proper melee weapon, I know I rarely if ever use up my 2nd quiver on my archer alt (except for sieges) before I am engaged in melee, and even then, I have 70 wpf and a long arming sword defend myself, used to be a 2h, before I respected.

Congrats on catching up with archer with 7-8 ath, it must be a very tiring and very tough exercise
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 19, 2012, 11:14:56 am
Archery is really hard and should be buffed. I mean, It's really hard to click on enemies.
photographic proof from my second day playing as an archer.


(click to show/hide)
admittedly this is a level 30 character with a rus bow.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 11:34:26 am
It's all archers were in the middle ages, support, they never slaughtered giant amounts of plated knights. (Like some people suggest happened at Agincourt.)

Ironically, the english archers did slaughter a giant amount of plated knights at Agincourt.  With melee weapons!  Daggers and hammers and mallets and the like.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 19, 2012, 11:37:55 am
Told people archer with mallet was :realism: but they made legolasssxxx clone instead.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Darkkarma on June 19, 2012, 11:39:47 am
-1 for saying "le" repeatedly.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 11:42:00 am
Told people archer with mallet was :realism: but they made legolasssxxx clone instead.

They always had mallets and shovels and other makeshift weapons handy after they prepared their anti cav defenses by  digging ditches and hammering in stakes.  Something I heard was considered for cRPG, but haven't seen anything in a while on it.  Would be interesting certainly.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 19, 2012, 11:45:50 am
So... give archers way to be at least decent in melee and then you can talk about making archery more support role as some think it should be. Currently, if you do build with enough agility to take wpf in both archery and melee, you can't do decent damage in either because of low str and limited wpf/slots. And if you happen to go with higher str that actually _can_ damage enemies, you are greatly limited in slots, can't have melee wpf at all (if you want to hit targets with higher PD bows) and can't have enough PS to go through semi-decent armours.

Nerfing archers leads to whining about cavs more. That happened before and I mentioned it here in forums before last nerfing wave happened. Archers aren't problem out there, they are easily beatable and catchable if you use tactics and brains. No point fixing something that isn't broken, unless it's your own playing skill.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 19, 2012, 11:47:57 am
Longbow / Rusbow being 1 slot would not hurt. More damage vs horses also would not hurt, but removing ability to kite would be a fair trade. As well as boosting hybridization somehow without boosting pure builds.

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 12:00:44 pm
So... give archers way to be at least decent in melee and then you can talk about making archery more support role as some think it should be. Currently, if you do build with enough agility to take wpf in both archery and melee, you can't do decent damage in either because of low str and limited wpf/slots. And if you happen to go with higher str that actually _can_ damage enemies, you are greatly limited in slots, can't have melee wpf at all (if you want to hit targets with higher PD bows) and can't have enough PS to go through semi-decent armours

7 PD 7 PS 140 WPF in archery 70 WPF in 1h 5 ATH and 5 WM

Still can nail headshots fine, with an unloomed hornbow.

Melee skills are great actually, with only wpf being slightly sub part, but considering my main has probably less WPF in plate and that this archer is in a gambeson all the time, that is good enough.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bonekuukkeli on June 19, 2012, 12:27:34 pm
If you can't catch some archer using 5ath, you are doing something seriously wrong. Seems quite balanced and basic build to me. And those are fine. When you end up in melee-range, you have advantage as it should be.

edit:

But yes, I support idea of making it to more non-running battle when/if archers are given tools for it.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 19, 2012, 12:57:18 pm
That's my archer, my main got 3 ath.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 19, 2012, 01:23:51 pm
If you want to nerf archers even more, that's ok to me. I'm cav. Please go ahead.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 19, 2012, 03:18:06 pm
fyi i have to shoot a plated guy 5-6 times to kill him if he's full health (if i dont pop him in the head)

30 arrows in total. So if i hit all arrows in a match i can kill AT MOST 6 plated guys based on that i dont headshot or miss. After that i'm down to a pickaxe.

dont know if you guys have tried bashing someone with a pickaxe with 0ps and 1wpf, but it always glance if people are using medium and above. Sometime i dont glance because i hit their head, but that's if they have shitty headarmor.

Nerf archer speed? Sounds fair. not.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 19, 2012, 03:32:30 pm
If you wanna talk about HISTORICAL references to this, then go here http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/board,40.0.html

What we're doing is playing a game that isn't historically correct. In calradia arrows DO pierce armor more frequent than in reality.

ergo: leave historical references out of this.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: San on June 19, 2012, 03:43:57 pm
Wouldn't you rather just be able to be more powerful against the tincans and be able to shoot them before they get close in less shots instead of running away to try and hit them 6+ times? I still think that even on high head armor players, headshots can do quite a bit of damage. It takes most 1hand weapons 5-8 hits to kill tincans, too. I'm not sure how many headshots it takes to down a tincan, but I would assume it couldn't be any more than 2 or 3.

I just feel that outside of teaming up with another archer or thrower, one person shouldn't be able to land unlimited shots on another/group of players actively chasing him without some sort of penalty (like accuracy on horse, or the horse as a large target for other ranged).
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 19, 2012, 05:28:02 pm
Now that I actually AM an archer, I can tell you that all the bad excuses made by archers about how hard it is, how they should be able to run, oh it takes so many arrows to kill.
They Are all just bad excuses. And that is it. People DROP when shot by arrows in battle. I never had to shoot goretooth more than 3-4 times and he died. Or PorkSword. Or any other platecrutch. And so help them god they didn't get headshot, because you'll never survive two arrows if one is a headshot.

For an archer as good as aderyn (good prediction, awesome shot), he doesn't need to make these arguments. But he LIKES to kite everyone, which is fine by all means. Do what he likes, whatever. But he also shouldn't be able to do soooo much damage. Sooo SOOOO much damage.
I always kind of jokingly ragged on archers, but now that I am one... hahahahahahahaha it's all true!
Damage and speed, One but not the other. Currently you get both with a MW rus.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: wanteds on June 19, 2012, 05:39:59 pm
Now that I actually AM an archer, I can tell you that all the bad excuses made by archers about how hard it is, how they should be able to run, oh it takes so many arrows to kill.
They Are all just bad excuses. And that is it. People DROP when shot by arrows in battle. I never had to shoot goretooth more than 3-4 times and he died. Or PorkSword. Or any other platecrutch. And so help them god they didn't get headshot, because you'll never survive two arrows if one is a headshot.

For an archer as good as aderyn (good prediction, awesome shot), he doesn't need to make these arguments. But he LIKES to kite everyone, which is fine by all means. Do what he likes, whatever. But he also shouldn't be able to do soooo much damage. Sooo SOOOO much damage.
I always kind of jokingly ragged on archers, but now that I am one... hahahahahahahaha it's all true!
Damage and speed, One but not the other. Currently you get both with a MW rus.

If it was up to me, rather than going for speed or going for damage, archers would have to choose between these two: damage or accuracy.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 10:02:47 pm
mw rus bow:  blatantly OP since the introduction of pierce bodkins, double or triple the damage of any melee weapon, equipping it and having at least 6 athletics makes you simply invincible to melee fighters as they will never catch you, feels as accurate as an arbalest for far across the map shooting

nerf it, nerf it bad
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 19, 2012, 10:08:56 pm
You made me respec into archery,   there happy now?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Blackbow on June 19, 2012, 10:21:57 pm
EAT SHIT BITCH!

it's a bolt ...

nerf xbower not archers , xbower are too powerfull i got one shot by mw arba last night...
can i remember than archer is one of the only class who cant one shot ppl without aim for the head ...

all inf can os, all mw arba can os, all cavs can os ...

and please to all stupid inf without shield who try to catch archers with low athlétics ... dont be so stupid and think about team play or stay at cover instead take so much risk ... juste for after cry about archery ...
just learn to use your brain !!!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Smoothrich on June 19, 2012, 10:39:49 pm
it's a bolt ...


and please to all stupid inf without shield who try to catch archers with low athlétics ... dont be so stupid and think about team play or stay at cover instead take so much risk ... juste for after cry about archery ...
just learn to use your brain !!!

I don't think you get it.  You can have 8 athletics and light-medium body armor and have no chance in hell of catching an archer.  If you have a shield, you are already half as fast as any typical rus bow build, no matter your build.  Its impossible.  Its broken.  Its one of the biggest complaints in the game right now.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 19, 2012, 10:43:10 pm
The damage isn't too high by any standard and really could stand to be more effective at horse-shooting, but kiting ability is over the top. Would not mind if they got a buff in melee effectiveness either, but the ability to outrun just about everyone is silly. Shield bump range needs a slight increase.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 19, 2012, 11:03:17 pm
I don't think you get it.  You can have 8 athletics and light-medium body armor and have no chance in hell of catching an archer.  If you have a shield, you are already half as fast as any typical rus bow build, no matter your build.  Its impossible.  Its broken.  Its one of the biggest complaints in the game right now.

No, they complain about archers period...You can be kited, big deal...don't chase him. If you're the last guy left tough shit. I have yet to see this horde of magical "Rus bow builds" destroying game balance. Archers are the least of my worries. This whole thread was started by a guy who said they do too much damage and his damning evidence is him with a crossbow bolt stuck in him...not an arrow.

It's just tears.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Tindel on June 19, 2012, 11:27:22 pm
oh god, so shitty, i gave up before lvl20,  cant kill anyone
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Taser on June 19, 2012, 11:30:43 pm
oh god, so shitty, i gave up before lvl20,  cant kill anyone

Thats because archers hit their stride after lvl 20.. 25 and up is where you'll be decent. Its not like melee where someone can do well at lvl 12 or 15 if they're skilled. Course once you hit 25 and up (not that you can't do well before then as archer but it won't be nearly as consistent) archers get pretty fun and the whining begins.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 19, 2012, 11:35:26 pm
oh god, so shitty, i gave up before lvl20,  cant kill anyone

Why Im not retiring as an archer anymore. Im gonna loom all my stuff as a 2 hander instead, making archers my primary target. The class is going to bleed so much that the devs will be forced to buff it, so that when crpg is finnaly done I'll return in my true form and destroy the game.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ad1no on June 19, 2012, 11:42:11 pm
Why Im not retiring as an archer anymore. Im gonna loom all my stuff as a 2 hander instead, making archers my primary target. The class is going to bleed so much that the devs will be forced to buff it, so that when crpg is finnaly done I'll return in my true form and destroy the game.


bahahaha you aint killin nothing but time silly archer boy

nerf these troll ranged players asap
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: JasonPastman on June 19, 2012, 11:47:47 pm
Nerf ranged,
Sick and tired of these skinless classes ruining everything great about this game.  It's not just the the enemy range but the friendly as well.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 19, 2012, 11:49:21 pm
bahahaha you aint killin nothing but time silly archer boy

If I can kill you lot with a simple mace and 3 ps on a duel, I can do a lot more as a proper 2hander.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ad1no on June 20, 2012, 12:02:58 am
If I can kill you lot with a simple mace and 3 ps on a duel, I can do a lot more as a proper 2hander.

lol wow do you ever say anything true?

never even seen you in game and anytime u wanna setup a duel lets put some denars on it
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 12:03:05 am
Nerf ranged,
Sick and tired of these skinless classes ruining everything great about this game.  It's not just the the enemy range but the friendly as well.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Baggy on June 20, 2012, 12:04:48 am
Tears or sadness at the state of the game.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 12:06:25 am
Just tears.

You can down-vote me now.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 12:26:05 am
No, they complain about archers period...You can be kited, big deal...don't chase him.

Ok let's not chase him... and ? How is that going to solve anything ? You know if you don't chase archers they will come after you and shoot you down anyway.

If you're the last guy left tough shit.

So it's totally fair that a shielder (it's the class meant to be good against archers, just saying in case you forgot there should be one) dies without any hope if he has to face two archers, even though if it was two melee he would decent chances ? Your logic baffles me.

I have yet to see this horde of magical "Rus bow builds" destroying game balance.

They do it all day long, but you just don't notice it. A typical round goes like this :

- Good melee and cav kill the bad melee
- Bad cav dies by all the creative ways bad cav can die (tip : there are many)
- Everybody avoids archers
- When all the bad melee and cav are dead, archers are still there, no matter if good or bad that is
- People start attacking archers because they are increasingly dominant in both teams and you have to kill them one day or the other

And this is the moment the magic happens. All melee and cav are equals against archers. You can be the best whatever in the world, if your team attacks an archer team without clearly favorable numbers, you die. There's pretty much nothing you can do, no matter how skilled and experienced you are, against a kiting archer. That is the true strength of archery and that is why a small group of archers can win rounds against a larger number of melee and cav.

This also explains why bad melee actually don't die to archers that much. Kills aren't only about quantity, it's also about quality, and archers have the best weapon to kill the best players.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 12:35:43 am
I'm not gonna parse that whole thing and answer each point.

Don't chase him, go fight somebody else. I rarely get killed by arrows...I've only been playing a few months, but I've logged a shit ton of hours and I have never had to deal with two archers kiting me like you describe (and if they did I have throwing axes so I might be in a better position). I'm a shielder ...it does happen I know, but not with any amount of regularity.

The only time I even notice archers is when I get shot in the face and 1 shotted, and whining is the last thing on my mind, I'm usually thinking "nice shot".
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: XyNox on June 20, 2012, 12:50:24 am
Devs, if you look closely youll notice that on page 9 I demanded to nerf torch and long voulge. I just checked the weapon stats and they are STILL THE SAME ! NURF ASAP !
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 12:52:10 am
What, long voulge is nerfed... when I came back to CRPG I immediately heirloomed one to +3 only to find out, in game, that it cannot be swung sideways  :mad:

Was a great battle weapon, and excellent anticav support as well.  :| Someone still bought that +3 long voulge inexplicably.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 03:22:22 am
I'm not gonna parse that whole thing and answer each point.

Don't chase him, go fight somebody else. I rarely get killed by arrows...I've only been playing a few months, but I've logged a shit ton of hours and I have never had to deal with two archers kiting me like you describe (and if they did I have throwing axes so I might be in a better position). I'm a shielder ...it does happen I know, but not with any amount of regularity.

The only time I even notice archers is when I get shot in the face and 1 shotted, and whining is the last thing on my mind, I'm usually thinking "nice shot".

I like when people I'm arguing with kinda prove my point, but still don't want to admit it.

Not to mention you totally forgot this :

Ok let's not chase him... and ? How is that going to solve anything ? You know if you don't chase archers they will come after you and shoot you down anyway.

When you repeated that :

Don't chase him, go fight somebody else.

(take note I'm not saying people should chase archers, what I'm saying is that not doing it doesn't work either)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 03:36:42 am
I just think certain "classes" or playstyles should have advantages. I can't even hope to kill a cav guy with my one handed weapon unless he runs into a wall or something. I don't think "balance" is always necessary in every single instance.

Do you know how many swings it takes a one handed user to kill a str/armor crutching 2 handed guy? And he can one shot me with his 30 str and +3 weapon. If he is indulging in maul douchebaggery I can't even hope to block him. They seem the most vocal about nerfing everything but themselves. I think they are overpowered, but I'm not gonna scream for nerfs.

Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2012, 03:48:08 am
Callahan, I'd say strength builds are overpowered, but the majority of EU player base disagrees with that sentiment because they don't have very many good strength builds over there.
I'll continue to enjoy crutching with my 36 strength melee character until then (so easy).
HOWEVER, that point is irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

and if you read closely you proved kafein correct. Kafein is right about quite a few things he said. Anyways, toodles~
p.s. my archer 3-4 shots that strength 2hander, and he has little hope of dodging. because that's the counter to them.
if he has 70+ body armor and 8+ if, it may take 5 shots.

Shielders should be MORE of a threat to my archer, but if i have any kind of allies (including other archers), they're worthless. Unless it's matey with his 9 Ath, until an archer shoots ihm in the back as he chases me.
oh.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 03:51:37 am
Callahan, I'd say strength builds are overpowered, but the majority of EU player base disagrees with that sentiment because they don't have very many good strength builds over there.
I'll continue to enjoy crutching with my 36 strength melee character until then (so easy).
HOWEVER, that point is irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

and if you read closely you proved kafein correct. Kafein is right about quite a few things he said. Anyways, toodles~

Yea, but he distills it down to as if it's a 1 vs 1 removed from the battle. How is that a valid reason for blanket nerf to archery? It's like his 2 archers mega-kiting a poor shielder argument. 

A stamina feature could potentially solve the kiting business, but they would still bitch about archers.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2012, 03:52:38 am
You'll understand when you play for longer.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adam_Bomb on June 20, 2012, 04:52:44 am
There are way less archers than there use to be before the ranged nerfs began. Please don't nerf them anymore, or I won't have any easy Xbow targets left.. :?
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: JasonPastman on June 20, 2012, 05:15:37 am
NERF RANGED NOW!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: callahan9119 on June 20, 2012, 05:23:46 am
NERF RANGED NOW!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: JasonPastman on June 20, 2012, 05:29:22 am
^ lol, NERF RANGED NOW
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Aderyn on June 20, 2012, 06:25:04 am
cylopside i think your full of shit.

I dont even 5 shot a person with full hp shooting him in the chest if he's 8+ IF and 70+ armor :/

And if I dont kill him, there's just no chance in hell you are.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Turk_Otto_Knight on June 20, 2012, 06:33:14 am
HOW MANY FUCKIN TIMES SHOULD I SAY, make the arrow boxes 7-8 kg, so they cant run  8-)
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bryggan on June 20, 2012, 07:24:30 am
Give archers a retreat button like single player.  Then we won't have to watch the last few get chased for miles til they run out of arrows, which is the only thing I find irritating about archers.  I'm a 1 hand/thrower build, and all I know is don't let yourself get stuck between two archers, and hang on to some throwing weapons til the very end- unless some newb cav tries riding you down- then head-shot him!  It's worth it!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2012, 12:05:02 pm
cylopside i think your full of shit.

I dont even 5 shot a person with full hp shooting him in the chest if he's 8+ IF and 70+ armor :/

And if I dont kill him, there's just no chance in hell you are.
No, it definitely takes 5 arrows, sometimes 4. I know that by testing against someone with those stats in particular. This is with a MW rus bow and MW bodkins, 6 PD, 172 WPF from 10 to 15 meters.
It never took me 6 arrows. Are you doing something wrong? Plain arrows?

However Wallace takes 7-8. He has crazy armor and 12 IF though. Killed him with 2 headshots though! He's an outlier, an exception.
But He would NEVER be able to catch me. 1 Athletics?! Hahaha good luck, he is so fucked.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Bobthehero on June 20, 2012, 12:10:46 pm
You played with Wallace recently?

Good news everyone!
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Ronin on June 20, 2012, 01:12:05 pm
As long as the ranged exist, no matter how hard or less useful it is, there will be always people who can use them efficiently. What "nerf ranged" supporters want is, they want to be invulnerable to the ranged projectiles.

This is supposed to be a team game, not every build is supposed to be useful in all situations. If someone decides to go high STR build with 2-3 athletics, they have to find a shielder or any kind of coverage to come into melee; where they will truly shine, where they will put their adventage to good use. A shielder is not supposed to deal with 2 archers at once, shielders are not an offensive counter to the ranged. Shielders are defensive units, while the xbowmen, throwers and cavalry can be an offensive counter to archers. Of course this doesn't mean shielders can not be an effective offensive counter to the ranged. But since shielders are another class of infantry units, 20 shielders vs 20 ranged would lose. Because infantry are weak against ranged normally, this is something we can learn from the Age of Games. On the other hand 10 shielders, 5 cav and 5 archers would have a better chance against 20 archers. That is why there can never be a good balance in public games, where classes are randomly distributed. Or worse, distributed based on clan banners (Yes I'm talking about GK mainly).

The reason cRPG has less balance than other mods is, there are simply more classes which are less flexible (such as pure 2handers). People here say archery in native is ridiculous, but there is no unbalance in native because every infantry can use shields, spears, throwing weapons and two handed street sweepers whenever they want; even at the same time if they wish. So it actually balances things out. Such a thing we can never hope to have in cRPG because of classess and dedicated builds.

This balance issue especially be a problem in public games because, as I said, classes are not equally distributed among teams. Even worse, even simple strategy or coordination is something hard to find since it is a public server. If a cavalry have 27-1 score, it is because the other team let him to achieve that score. Same goes for all classes, such as archery and 2handed STR crutchers.

That's why there should be more events like clanmatches and such, to see how two organized teams do. That's what makes nations cup so valuable in my opinion, but I'd say more events should take place.

My suggestion is: Do what needs to be done about balancing, but please do not do it very based on public games. Host events instead to see how the balance is truly are. Games such as LOL, Starcraft are not being balanced by public games, but ranked games instead; if I am not horribly mistaken.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 03:26:40 pm
I just think certain "classes" or playstyles should have advantages.

Yet a shielder should have no advantages against an archer ?

I can't even hope to kill a cav guy with my one handed weapon unless he runs into a wall or something.

Then you are doing something wrong. Horses live in a marmelade world, whereas humans have no inertia whatsoever. If you use this fact to your advantage, you can survive individual cav attacks with any weapon as long as it pleases you, and even kill them or their horses.

I don't think "balance" is always necessary in every single instance.

It is however necessary in these oddly frequently happening instances at the end of rounds like I described.

Do you know how many swings it takes a one handed user to kill a str/armor crutching 2 handed guy?

With a dedicated onehander build, should be around 5-8 hits depending on str, armor levels, hold times etc.

But also note it takes 4 arrows or less for the exact same guy to go down. And much more importantly, he won't block arrows. The amount of actual swings being exchanged can go well over 50 before a melee combat is over.

And he can one shot me with his 30 str and +3 weapon.

Well, the thing is, how many of his snailspeed swings will you block before that last one ? 5 ? 10 ? Until someone comes to rescue you ? No matter how much damage he does, you have to fail a block for him to acheive anything. Which is not the case with projectiles.

If he is indulging in maul douchebaggery I can't even hope to block him.

Good point. However, a guy using a maul also has no hope of ever catching you.

They seem the most vocal about nerfing everything but themselves. I think they are overpowered, but I'm not gonna scream for nerfs.

If you don't scream for nerfs, it's probable your own situation is fine and you are just trying to maintain a statu quo that works for you.

It always seemed strange to me that the imbalance in complaints (read : 2h whine the most) seems to be an excuse for the targeted audience (ranged usually) to dismiss these complaints, saying "2h are whiners". How is that a valid argument ?

It's a bit like me advocating against environmentalists by saying they are hippies.


When one part of the population is actively lobbying for some things to change as if their life depended on it, and an other part of the population wants things to change in the reverse direction, yet without being nearly as vocal about it, the only logical conclusion is everything is fine, of course :wink:
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 20, 2012, 03:50:37 pm
There are way more 2 handers than anything, and getting shot is annoying. Thats why they whine.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 04:05:37 pm
There are way more 2 handers than anything

True, if you count polearms in, which is valid.

and getting shot is annoying.

Yes it is.

Thats why they whine.

No. There are plenty of annoying things in this game, and they all get a little hate partly because they are annoying, but nowhere as much as archery.

How comes people like me (cav and shielder) that are literally the best possible melee counter to archery also whine about it ? I should be eating archers for breakfast and actually wanting to buff them since more archers would mean an easier game for me. Guess what, it's not the case at all.



Actually if we limit ourselves to stat changes I think archers should hit stronger against low armor and have better long range damage output, but not be unkillable mosquitos like they are now. Make archers the real, flexible soldiers they were in the middle ages, softening the enemy with arrows then taking their sidearms to finish the job. Make medium armor archer hybrids viable and nerf kiting-archery-peasants to the ground. That's all I want. Realism, fun and balance, this time actually all agreeing with each other.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 04:13:26 pm
Actually if we limit ourselves to stat changes I think archers should hit stronger against low armor and have better long range damage output, but not be unkillable mosquitos like they are now. Make archers the real, flexible soldiers they were in the middle ages, softening the enemy with arrows then taking their sidearms to finish the job. Make medium armor archer hybrids viable and nerf kiting-archery-peasants to the ground. That's all I want. Realism, fun and balance, this time actually all agreeing with each other.

+1
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 20, 2012, 07:09:58 pm
Kafein, I'll bet that people would still whine about archery then, more than anything else.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Arrowblood on June 20, 2012, 07:13:02 pm
Kafein, I'll bet that people would still whine about archery then, more than anything else.
Indeed
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 09:03:36 pm
There's the class of people who whine about archery and all ranged because they think melee should be the exclusive way to get kills. Who cares about those people.

However, it doesn't mean changes should not be made more towards balance / commonsense - what Kafein is suggesting isn't a nerf, it's a change in the class which would make it perhaps slightly even more powerful (if the archer is a good melee fighter, too) but less annoying, and would have more counters.

We had this sort of discussion very long ago regarding balance to archers when they were both better in ranged then now and better in melee then now; the balancers at the time thought it was a better idea to nerf their melee abilities a lot, while nerfing archery only somewhat. So archers became peasant-gear kiters, bar a few exceptions.

The damage that archers do is not really a problem, they do quite a bit of damage but that is okay (and I think they should take less arrows to shoot down a horse then now, and more damage vs low armour / unarmoured people), but it is both more balanced and realistic to allow them to use melee weapons like normal people and a bit of armour, but stop the endless kiting and shooting.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 11:08:16 pm
The slot system already makes sure archers don't use derp weapons like flamberges. But the way the archery wpf influences accuracy forces them to use nearly no armor and have very little means of defending themselves with a melee weapon. This both forces them to kite, and enables them to be excellent at kiting. I just want that to change so we finally have medium armor archers with just underaverage melee capabilities.

This is also why I consider crossbowmen to be OK balance wise on open maps. They are very accurate and hit very hard, but they won't kite and on open maps they can't camp in hardly reachable places. Xbowmen don't kite both because their reload time doesn't really allow for it, and because they aren't forced to, xbows allow for very good melee builds actually.

For me it's very hard to say whether current archery is in general OP or not, because everything depends on the situation, and also a lot on the archer's player skill, build and heirlooms.
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adam_Bomb on June 21, 2012, 01:18:34 am
Meh, I kite all the time
Title: Re: nerf archers
Post by: Adamar on June 21, 2012, 02:20:32 am
Meh, I kite all the time

No one blames you. It's chadz's fault.