Blev smått rädd när FI hade 4% en stund där.Jo du samma här
The little I've heard about swedish elections has been about some completely retarded far left feminist party getting 4 percent of the vote, guaranteeing them a seat in parliament. Completely ridiculous tumblr inspired policies, stuff like legal polygamous marriages, unrestricted immigration and the like. I'm guessing that's what Gravoth's post is referring to? I'm too lazy to google translate.
The little I've heard about swedish elections has been about some completely retarded far left feminist party getting 4 percent of the vote, guaranteeing them a seat in parliament. Completely ridiculous tumblr inspired policies, stuff like legal polygamous marriages, unrestricted immigration and the like. I'm guessing that's what Gravoth's post is referring to? I'm too lazy to google translate.
If you are Swedish and got rid of 'Alliansen' you should be ashamed of yourself.(click to show/hide)
More than proud to get rid of them. Who'd want a government that uses USA and the UK as role models.
More than proud to get rid of them. Who'd want a government that uses USA and the UK as role models.
The Swedish crown (Currency) is already dropping. All over the world people are selling it, great start for the new government.
Not as quickly as it's been the past days.
I'm not gonna repeat myself, Granny. If you would have looked like three posts above you. There's a reason why Sweden is one of the richest countries in the world and now SD (The social democrats, not to be confused with the swedish democrats) has brought up a new budget. It would be great if they, you know, had the money to pay for everything they promise.
plebs
Not as quickly as it's been the past days.
I'm not gonna repeat myself, Granny. If you would have looked like three posts above you. There's a reason why Sweden is one of the richest countries in the world and now SD (The social democrats, not to be confused with the swedish democrats) has brought up a new budget. It would be great if they, you know, had the money to pay for everything they promise.
plebs
Sorry såg inte din länk, om du vill ha ett bemötande på den får det bli på svenska - har redan bemött den ett par gånger i andra sammanhang, och den är enligt mig full av bs eftersom den tar statistik ur sitt sammanhang, förenklar ekonomin och tar inte med parametrar som påverkar.
Läs detta:
http://m.gp.se/nyheter/debatt/1.2487811-svartmalning-i-valdebatten-forsvagar-var-demokrati (http://m.gp.se/nyheter/debatt/1.2487811-svartmalning-i-valdebatten-forsvagar-var-demokrati)
It's still six percent that we have alot to thank for, I'm not gonna lie, I'm afraid of the new taxes.
How am I supposed to know what they did? As far as I know, they haven't gone out with it, sadly. But if we took ourselfes out of it so well, compared to the rest of the world we surely have Fredrik and Anders to thank for.
Anyways, I'm not here to argue. Sort of. Kinda. Shoot me a PM and I'll answer it when I get back on later tonight.
You know, they're not jumping back straight to pre 2006 taxes the day after the election. Some of the tax cuts will still be intact, and it will take time to implement the new tax reforms. And why are you afraid of the new taxes?
I know that very well. Personal reasons. And like I said, they're not gonna go trough, in worst/best case, there will be a new election. They refuse to cooperate with SD. Meanhile KD and C will obviously refuse to work with them aswell.
I hope the other parties will dare to stop caring so much about political correctness and perhaps lower the immigration a bit.
Whatever you do Swedes don't vote for pro NATO politicians. You know because we have that agreement between Finland and Sweden (if we were to join NATO we would do it together or decide not to join and stay neutral together).
Just because you could, doesn't mean you should. Aye?
I don't think it's a good idea to poke Russia with a stick... The bear is easily angered.
Lol, right wing populism is hilarious.(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Sweden nearing its final form:
They are making a law that makes it illegal to criticize immigration:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/18116-new-swedish-law-criminalizes-anti-immigration-internet-speech
They are making a new tax to feed all the refugees forever:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expressen.se%2Fnyheter%2Fval2014%2Fplanerar-ny-skatt-for-att-klara-flyktingfragan%2F&edit-text=&act=url
Sweden has camps to mix male immigrants and female Swedes:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nt.se%2Fnyheter%2Fsoderkoping%2Flagret-ska-motverka-rasism-10058025.aspx&edit-text=&act=url
A main Swedish newspaper hires hackers to reveal those who write anti-immigration texts, and published their photos and names and went to their homes with cameras:
http://pamelageller.com/2014/04/sharia-sweden-swedish-newspaper-hacks-discus-goes-commenters-homes-cameramen.html/
Sweden has the second highest rate of rape:
http://www.friatider.se/sverige-toppar-internationell-valdtaktsstatistik
By the way. I think the reason SD grew so much was because Reinfeldt did the huge mistake of saying "We need more immigration", when infact that's what no one wants. S and V grew, MP decreased (probably voted on F!), and then all the Alliance parties decreased and SD grew alot. I think many Alliance voters changed to SD.
I hope the other parties will dare to stop caring so much about political correctness and perhaps lower the immigration a bit.
Sweden nearing its final form:
They are making a law that makes it illegal to criticize immigration:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/18116-new-swedish-law-criminalizes-anti-immigration-internet-speech
They are making a new tax to feed all the refugees forever:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.expressen.se%2Fnyheter%2Fval2014%2Fplanerar-ny-skatt-for-att-klara-flyktingfragan%2F&edit-text=&act=url
Sweden has camps to mix male immigrants and female Swedes:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nt.se%2Fnyheter%2Fsoderkoping%2Flagret-ska-motverka-rasism-10058025.aspx&edit-text=&act=url
A main Swedish newspaper hires hackers to reveal those who write anti-immigration texts, and published their photos and names and went to their homes with cameras:
http://pamelageller.com/2014/04/sharia-sweden-swedish-newspaper-hacks-discus-goes-commenters-homes-cameramen.html/
Sweden has the second highest rate of rape:
http://www.friatider.se/sverige-toppar-internationell-valdtaktsstatistik
It's fabulous wayyyyyne. (http://forum.melee.org/closed-requests/fallen_wayyyyyne/)
Typical American. For you, leaving the forum is the same as gassing the Dutch. You must have something better to do. Look out for trespassing 8 year olds and shoot them with rubber bullets. Won't kill them but it'll teach 'em a lesson.
All makt åt Jimmie, våran härskare och befriare.
All makt åt Jimmie, våran härskare och befriare.
And what exactly is wrong with this statement?
Multiculturalism and immigration aren't insane experiments they are the result of a world in which people are not prisoners in their own country. But I get it, brown people are terrifying.
I dont know about brown people, but muslims are pretty scary.
Exactly the same with AfD (Alternative for Germany) here. They got 10-12%+ on state and federal parliaments already, off the cut.Completely ignoring the fact that leading party members of the AfD came from other far-right parties which were categorized as racist/anti-Semitic and therefore banned.
But all established parties are 'hurr durr they are talking about immigration so they must be racists'. It's good to know that all over europe there are still rather big groups of people that aren't blind and ignorant, and want to approach problems before they are insolvable.
Immigration is neccessary for any country but letting the projected 100000 people this year to a country of just under 10 million is reckless. There is nothing "racist" or "far right" in limiting immigration when it is simply beyond reasonable assimilation. Ideally there should be a system implemented in the EU of equal immigration spread across the countries proportional to population.
Are there really that many Yugoslavs in Göteborg? First language on that billboard wayne posted is Yugoslav and it's written in largest font.
Multiculturalism and immigration aren't insane experiments they are the result of a world in which people are not prisoners in their own country. But I get it, brown people are terrifying.
What is the identity of ones country exactly?
Cause what I have found in Sweden, the nationalists really wanna be the ones to decide what the Swedish country is, stands for and what values we have. How we celebrate, what we eat, how we stand in line and so on. That we wanna sing the natinal Anthem, raise our flags and celebrate christmas.
I say fuck them, if they wanna have those traditions, those values and let them wave their flags, sing the national Anthem, eat herring on midsummer and drink their nubbe - I am not denying them these rights, I am not denying the muslim his right to celebrate Ramadan, I am not denying anyone their traditions, their morals as long as they keep all of this shit according to the laws of our country.
Dont get me wrong, I share some of these traditions, I enjoy them - I like to drink Nubbe on midsummers eve - but I dont care if my neighbour dont - and I sure as hell wont push my traditions and values down his throat.
These nationalists, are trying to be the ones to decide what is Swedish and what is not.
I dont care if the leader of the nationalist party wears these clothes, sure if he likes them and they fit his crouch - wear them and STFU - but dont pin them on me, dont try to be the one to decide what is Swedish and what is not. They do not own the right to tell me how to live my Life as a swede
I dont see how we can evade the fact that we are all pooling into the same big human race now that the majority of the population have global information and transport means.
The time where humans lived in isolated places in different corners of the world with very little communication with the exterior world is over.
(click to show/hide)
The issue in Sweden is that 7 out of 8 parties in the parliament wants to keep/increase immigration, and only one wants to decrease it. Many people voting for that party (SD) are doing it only because they want less immigration. It's the only option, and the other parties have forced the hands of the people. Voters don't want decreased immigration because they're racist, but because our current integration policy isn't working particularly well. I hope for the day other parties will dare to be more open about immigration policies, so there's more options than SD, which comes with Nationalism and weird policies all in one package if they form a government one day.
Swedes are smart, hard working people. You can't persuade me that immigration is the main issue. Something else lies beneath it. What is the problem with so many people arriving in such short period of time? Your infrastructure can't support it. Real problem is why you can't support more than 10 million people living in your country?
Is it too much welfare? If that's the case, then cut the welfare and use that money to create jobs so that people can work and give back to the country. Welfare isn't something you should pride yourselves in, it's a temporary way of dealing with problems. All people should work, that's the long term goal.
Sweden is northern country and that's the reason why it is underpopulated. But we live in different, modern times where cold climate isn't an issue as it was before. Me and Oberyn mentioned Japanese, their island is smaller and worse place to live compared to Swedish territory. And yet they have no troubles supporting 12 times as much souls who undeniably live in a country with higher standard and more developed than Sweden.
Immigration isn't an issue, it is an excuse to cover up for real, solvable problems that are avoided indefinitely.
Yes I understand you have no attachment whatsoever to any sort of communal tribal identity. You're too enlightened to have something as boorish and primitive as that. Don't worry, immigrants are not so shy about it. Keep glorifying their sense of cultural identity and obliterating your own, what could go wrong. Perfect assimilation, lol.
Yes I understand you have no attachment whatsoever to any sort of communal tribal identity. You're too enlightened to have something as boorish and primitive as that. Don't worry, immigrants are not so shy about it. Keep glorifying their sense of cultural identity and obliterating your own, what could go wrong. Perfect assimilation, lol.
Personally i'd embrace a New World Order with no borders, restrictions or nationalistic bs.
Map of arable land. Sweden is marginal farming territory. It's no mystery why Sweden is sparsely populated while Japan is densely. That's a factor that stretches a long way back. If Sweden was as densely populated as Japan can you imagine the infrastructure that needs to be built? The amount of food imported? The number of jobs to provide? Where does the money come from?
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Yes I understand you have no attachment whatsoever to any sort of communal tribal identity. You're too enlightened to have something as boorish and primitive as that. Don't worry, immigrants are not so shy about it. Keep glorifying their sense of cultural identity and obliterating your own, what could go wrong. Perfect assimilation, lol.
I dont chose to glorifying any culture, keep your culture and stop bugging me or others with it - same goes with religion, keep your religion, let others keep theirs - but stop bugging others with the crap you like and try to shov it down other peoples throats.
Swedes are smart, hard working people. You can't persuade me that immigration is the main issue. Something else lies beneath it. What is the problem with so many people arriving in such short period of time?
Immigration isn't an issue, it is an excuse to cover up for real, solvable problems that are avoided indefinitely.
Their immigration policies have nothing to do with their work ethic, or "westernization" or lack thereof. If there's one western thing they don't have much truck with it's the collective identity suicidal frenzy so many western countries are enamored of and the subsequent immigration policies that come with it. It's incredibly hard to become a japanese citizen and you must assimilate at a high level before it is even considered, culturally and economically. And even then the perceived "taint" of korean or chinese heritage can still be a burden, given the animosity between all three of those countries historically. East Asia still has WW2 very much on it's mind on the national levels, unlike euro countries for whom it is almost distant history politically.
And chinese are far from "westernized". Not sure how you can put japanese and chinese on the same level for that subject. South Korea is a much better pick.
I have voting right for over 10 years. My country is in deep shit. I believe that is because last 10 years I didn't have a single proper choice to vote for. Proper choice is the party that has clear and doable plan how to increase number of jobs and decrease unemployment. Sadly, not a single party was like that. Just bunch of lies and fake promises that have no ground in reality.
Don't tell me you haven't got a single proper choice to vote for? That you came to point where immigration is the only subject to discuss? To a point where no one has clear program how to push country forward? If that's the case, then you're fucked in the long run.
if you are swedish and dont vote SD you are gay
We have choices. And immigration is a subject to discuss, not the only one ofcourse, but it is a major one. SD doesnt want to stop immigration completely, just reduce it to a more manageable level. And are growing because they are the only ones who actually want to discuss the subject.
Easy solution? More efficient solution i believe, spending the same amount of money, but helping twice as many in their own countries instead of bringing all of them over here.
[(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
Sweden is taking way more immigrants than there are jobs for, this creates a growing unemployment rate, which forces a lot of people to be on welfare which in return creates economic problems. Sweden is becoming a facist country where young people are brainwashed about how multiculturalism is magic and we will create a utopia if everyone is just tolerant and hug trees. Multiple times are politicians denied freedom of speech, some people are constantly living in fear of getting attacked for their opinions, extremist groups are growing, unemployment is growing, crime is growing and the economy is failing, swedes are immigrating to other countries to look for work. Do you realy think this is the way to continue? Do you realy think this is the best for your country? Wouldn't it be a better idea to slow down and try to fix your own problems instead of beeing the world's welfare office? Continuing like this will cripple western countries economies while everything is beeing bought by the chinese. Maybye we will move towards a global race, but it would be a shitty world, full of conflict and poverty.
Sweden is taking way more immigrants than there are jobs for, this creates a growing unemployment rate, which forces a lot of people to be on welfare which in return creates economic problems. Sweden is becoming a facist country where young people are brainwashed about how multiculturalism is magic and we will create a utopia if everyone is just tolerant and hug trees. Multiple times are politicians denied freedom of speech, some people are constantly living in fear of getting attacked for their opinions, extremist groups are growing, unemployment is growing, crime is growing and the economy is failing, swedes are immigrating to other countries to look for work. Do you realy think this is the way to continue? Do you realy think this is the best for your country? Wouldn't it be a better idea to slow down and try to fix your own problems instead of beeing the world's welfare office? Continuing like this will cripple western countries economies while everything is beeing bought by the chinese. Maybye we will move towards a global race, but it would be a shitty world, full of conflict and poverty.
lol communist propaganda
Sweden would be a shithole without those rich guys creating sucessfull companies that are employing people.
lmao if people are so poor why cant we just print more Money
Most new "Money" arent printed today, but if you wanna know how Money is created just ask
its proven that more money would create 20 million jobs in just 3 years (which means we can take more immigrants)
Im sure you would go a long way in SD Tore, you have the same retorical skill :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
sweden has space for 400 million people
Im sure we do, and if we didnt we could just snatch Norway
source wikipedia
Do u live in Another dimension? From what I wrote u see this?
I will put it in simple terms, just for you:
1. Huge economic crisis (banks, system, politicians to blame or?)
2. Huge setbacks to most societies in europe due to crisis (you still with me?)
3. Nationalistic Powers and chocolate chip cookies and far left wingers emerge in all countries (like allways in bad economic times, no?)
4. Who was to blame for the crisis? The average Joe? The average Abdullah? The average Jean? The average Anders? (Nope, I Think u are still following, otherwise go back to step one and try again)
5. So economy gets fucked up, people lose jobs, unemployment rises, Healthcare gets worse - and here comes the galant Knights of the Nationalistic parties ALL over Europe AT the same time to fix things with the simple solution (that everyone is looking for)- its the immigrants fault.
Immigrants are overrepresented in Sweden's crime statistics. In a study by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention in 1997-2001, 25% of the almost 1,520,000 offences were found to be committed by people born abroad, while almost 20% were committed by Swedish-born people with a foreign background. In the study, immigrants were found to be four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than ethnic Swedes. In addition, immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes. Those from North Africa and Western Asia were overrepresented.
The report is based on statistics for those "suspected" of offences, but Stina Holmberg of the Council for Crime Prevention said that there was "little difference" in the statistics for those suspected of crimes and those actually convicted.
"Slightly under 60 percent of the almost 1,520,000 offences ... registered during the period covered by the study can be attributed to persons who were born in Sweden to two Swedish-born parents," it said.
The economic crisis was years ago, we're in full fucking recovery.
Do you think the problems with immigration are uniquely linked to the economy? That's the only reason to be against it?
How about:
These stats have been constants for years, prior and post economic crisis. \
Tell me more about how a couple of far right murderers and far right/ far left "fighting" is totally an incredible problem and a symptom of society's sickness that must be fixed, not the of thousands of murders and rapes your compatriots (sorry, I mean random meaningless people to whom you have no attachment one way or another) suffer at the hands of immigrants, you dishonest fuck.
And Molly, there's nothing to change, I am just tired of humouring stupid fucking willfully ignorant pieces of shit like this cunt. Keep poking your head in the sand and shaking your head sadly at the awful racist nationalists while simultaneously ignoring the overwhelming evidence staring you in the face. I seriously wish you would get the shit beat out of you and robbed for nothing but what you look like and end up as one of those statistics, might open your eyes.
Or maybe one of your female relatives gets rapped one night. You know, the sort of thing that evil neo-chocolate chip cookies do in your fantasy examples, but is par for the course and completely accepted for immigrants. After all, they're "opressed". What's one faceless swede getting murdered or raped compared to their opression, or even thousands? They obviously mean nothing.
It's completely expected and normal apparently. You just justified it yourself then a sentence after are confused?
"It's ok because they're poor"
"Omg as if anyone is saying it's normal and accepted, I don't even"
Fucking idiot.
What?
When did I say "it's ok" exactly?
I feel this will get ugly if I have to explain everything to you like you're 5, Xant style.
The economic crisis was years ago, we're in full fucking recovery.
Do you think the problems with immigration are uniquely linked to the economy? That's the only reason to be against it?
How about:
These stats have been constants for years, prior and post economic crisis.
Tell me more about how a couple of far right murderers and far right/ far left "fighting" is totally an incredible problem and a symptom of society's sickness that must be fixed, not the of thousands of murders and rapes your compatriots (sorry, I mean random meaningless people to whom you have no attachment one way or another) suffer at the hands of immigrants, you dishonest fuck.
And Molly, there's nothing to change, I am just tired of humouring stupid fucking willfully ignorant pieces of shit like this cunt. Keep poking your head in the sand and shaking your head sadly at the awful racist nationalists while simultaneously ignoring the overwhelming evidence staring you in the face. I seriously wish you would get the shit beat out of you and robbed for nothing but what you look like and end up as one of those statistics, might open your eyes. Or maybe one of your female relatives gets rapped one night. You know, the sort of thing that evil neo-chocolate chip cookies do in your fantasy examples, but is par for the course and completely accepted for immigrants. After all, they're "opressed". What's one faceless swede getting murdered or raped compared to their opression, or even thousands? They obviously mean nothing.
Btw we arent blaming immigrants, its the politics that bring in too many too quickly. Shit is bound to go wrong when tens of thousands come in per year, with unemployment being quite big its not strange that they dont get jobs and are forced to live on welfare. Some get jobs that pay part of their paycheck with taxes, which isnt much better.
The immigration politics are to blame, they create these blocks with only immigrants which makes it less necessary for them to learn to speak swedish since they are many from the same countries and can just speak whatever native languages they speak with eachother. Theres no guaranteed jobs so they end up living on welfare.
Not their fault, ours, our unresponsible politics.
Swedes breed like friging pandas. Immigrants to Sweden mostly come from extremely conservative cultures where the role of women is well entrenched as baby making machine. It's not a conspiracy, it's a simple demographic reality, and it's not organized or planned in any way, except possibly by those implementing the immigration policies in the first place. Certainly not an avowed goal for most muslims, they're just living their lives, having families, etc... though a few will gleefully claim so to your face in complete ernest. But reality is something that's obviously quite offensive to you.
Fine, just expected and normal. You have a large unassimilated population of poor foreigners with no jobs, it's bound to happen.
So what's your solution then? Obviously importing even bigger waves of poor foreigners will fix it! :lol:
We already covered the job issue, it isnt one. Otherwise how could 400000 immigrants come here during the worst economical crisis since the 30:s and the unemployment rate didnt go up more than it has before. This only during the last 8 years. They get jobs, lowcost ones mostly like kaffein says - but they get jobs.
And the blocks of immigrants, well I have lived in one of those, one of the "worst" according to SD and my ass and wallet didnt get raped.
Like kaffein mentioned, poor people has a higher crimerate in general, but it doesnt differ between poor swedes and poor immigrants - it never has. Also, funny fact - SD representatives has a higher % of criminals than any immigrant gruop there is. And what about the male population, according to SD logic they are much more eager to commit crimes than females - lets stop the males from getting born by using abortion!!! :mrgreen:
Ah.. Sweden, most politically absurd country in Europe..
They speak about norwegian right wing populists (in government atm) as Fascists.. Like.. seriously so. While sweden itself has a long and much stronger tradition of n a z i s and neo n a z i s than either norway or denmark.
This they choose to ignore of course.
I think what we see going on in sweden is a threat to swedish identity itself, as "Good and progressive" people. Something that is historically true. They have been on the forefront of emancipation of women and human rights, since before wwii.. (When they cooperated with the n a z i s, being "neutral", black spot..)
SD is on collision course with this identity, and this doesn't compute in the heads of the brainwashed. They come up with all kinds of creative excuses for the success of SD, while the very fact is that thinking people are trying give them a wake up call, for this is what this election result is. Those voters don't actually WANT SD in power. It's a party of former neo n a z i s and criminals.
They are just sick of the completely fucked up swedish debate, where it is impossible to be critical of immigration and stay "a decent person". The tragedy of it all is that sweden don't look after their immigrants. In norway they are integrated all over the country. Small places, big cities, they all have to carry their share. In sweden they are packed into ghettos.. The cultural elite doesn't live in places where they actually meet immigrants on the street, and stockholm city centre has way fewer immigrants than i.ex centre of oslo.
It's mad mad double moralism.
Birth rate Sweden :
(this is total births, if it was native swedes only...)11.78 births/1,000 population
Birth rate of Somalia, the second largest source of immigrants for Sweden in 2012:
40.87 births/1,000 population (2014 est.)
Yeah those are practically the same! Hahaha.
Too bad there wasn't an accompanying axis for total population in that video, you'd see the very obvious effect of many western countries falling bellow replacement levels (Sweden included) and the fact that effects of infrastructure, education and health on child mortality in developping countries fast outpace the slowly falling birth rate. Which means, massively exploding populations in the developping worlds and literally vanishing populations in some developped countries. Why do you think there are immigrants in the first place, ffs? For the developping world to even start reaching that level of population "stability" will take generations, and that's taking this man's incredibly generous projections that the developping world becoming developped will be as fast and smooth a transition as it was elsewhere. What do you think will happen in the meantime?(click to show/hide)
I never mentioned anything about rape in those blocks, just that it becomes a split society when they dont learn swedish and only hang around with other people of the same background.
Sure theres no difference between a poor swede and a poor immigrant. But there also is no need to bring in poor immigrants if we cant help them get a good job etc. If we just bring them in and keep them poor its understandable that some may resort to crime or whatever. Sweden should be able to care for everyone that comes to this country and not leave them poor, if they are forced to live poor lives here, which could lead to them starting to do criminal business, then we should find a better solution. Them being miserable here, creating even more misery through crime is not a good solution. Spending more money on helping them in their own countries/neighbour countries, where it can be spend more efficiently, helps more than bringing them here and creating misery when we cant keep them occupied.
So, Thomek - what exactly is then the problems with the immigrants?
Ah.. Sweden, most politically absurd country in Europe..
They speak about norwegian right wing populists (in government atm) as Fascists.. Like.. seriously so. While sweden itself has a long and much stronger tradition of n a z i s and neo n a z i s than either norway or denmark.
This they choose to ignore of course.
No one in Sweden is ignoring that, It's one of the biggest issues today and it's being discussed daily.
I think what we see going on in sweden is a threat to swedish identity itself, as "Good and progressive" people. Something that is historically true. They have been on the forefront of emancipation of women and human rights, since before wwii.. (When they cooperated with the n a z i s, being "neutral", black spot..)
Oh my god, not this again.
SD is on collision course with this identity, and this doesn't compute in the heads of the brainwashed. They come up with all kinds of creative excuses for the success of SD, while the very fact is that thinking people are trying give them a wake up call, for this is what this election result is. Those voters don't actually WANT SD in power. It's a party of former neo n a z i s and criminals.
So you mean that 637894 voted on SD cause they were dissapointed in the current government? Many old people including my Grandmother had and have no idea what SD's main question is, voting on them because they promise privileges for people over 65. Racists, people that aren't racist but still want the immegration to be lowered are the main elite voting. So don't come and say that 637,894 people of 4,816,418 voted on them because of that.
They are just sick of the completely fucked up swedish debate, where it is impossible to be critical of immigration and stay "a decent person". The tragedy of it all is that sweden don't look after their immigrants. In norway they are integrated all over the country. Small places, big cities, they all have to carry their share. In sweden they are packed into ghettos.. The cultural elite doesn't live in places where they actually meet immigrants on the street, and stockholm city centre has way fewer immigrants than i.ex centre of oslo.
You're kidding right? Please tell me, you are.
It's mad mad double moralism.
Where did I say he was wrong? The only criticism I offered was the suspicious lack of a population growth axis on his graphic and his positive view (which even he himself dubs a "dream") of future progress of developping countries. That the most developped a country, the lower the population growth (even sometimes falling below population replacement levels) is something every kid learns in school. It's not a mindblowing shattering revelation, sorry.
Nice appeal to authority though, I'm sure this guy's blatant population control environmental agenda doesn't color his statistics or presentation at all. Obviously only the most objective and pure as the driven-snow apolitical speakers even present their findings at TedX talks.
Even if I were to take everything he says at face value, I still see no arguement for immigration in his talk. If anything the money we spend on immigrants we should send to their governments instead to help build the infrastructure needed, according to that logic.
I showed u this cause you were going on about immigrants being babymachines, well since child mortality is low in sweden, the amount of children in immigrants families will decrease ofc - do I have to spell it out for you? You should be able to draw some conclusions at least - if I have to explain everything I say in small words its gonna be to tiresome
So grandmom, you think it's ok to invite people to your country and not be able to treat them well? You think it's ok if you invite 10 friends to your house and 100 come? You have enough food and drink for them? Where is the limit?
I'm not against immigration per se. It's just that there are limits, and that you take 1% of the population of sweden per year, with an 8+% unemployment, that doesn't compute. These people start at the bottom of society, and will not be the ones to get a job first.
So they have to be on welfare until they learn swedish, take education, and then maybe can get a job. In the meanwhile everyone else has to pay for their roof and food.
All that is fine and normal when it comes to refugees, but there is a point when the price gets too high. Why do you think you had those revolts?
Because you are not even able to care for those you have. That's a fact! And swedish mainstream wants to take more.
You ran out of drinks and food, the party is over, but still you invite more people, those people will get angry, and you have a problem. If you don't wake up soon, you will get something like SD in government at the next election, or the one after that.
And believe me, no one wants that. (me neither.)
(And believe me. If its about relieving people in immediate danger of death, you can save millions of Syrian lives for the Billions you spend on immigration of a few thousand. So it doesn't compute if morality is your goal either. )
since child mortality is low in sweden, the amount of children in immigrants families will decrease ofc
So grandmom, you think it's ok to invite people to your country and not be able to treat them well? You think it's ok if you invite 10 friends to your house and 100 come? You have enough food and drink for them? Where is the limit?
You tell me, its not me voting for SD - so you should know I guess - where is the limit Thomek?
I'm not against immigration per se. It's just that there are limits, and that you take 1% of the population of sweden per year, with an 8+% unemployment, that doesn't compute. These people start at the bottom of society, and will not be the ones to get a job first.
Again, over tha past 8 years we took in several 100k and the unemploymentrate stayed the same - your point is invalid
So they have to be on welfare until they learn swedish, take education, and then maybe can get a job. In the meanwhile everyone else has to pay for their roof and food.
So, the point before this one pretty much neglects this one, I am not even gonna go on about 20-65 year old immigrants doesnt have to go through 13 years of school, free healthcare, free dentals and so on that cost the state tons of money for every citizent born here - they are ready to get to work from day one, figure of speak
All that is fine and normal when it comes to refugees, but there is a point when the price gets too high. Why do you think you had those revolts?
Because you are not even able to care for those you have. That's a fact! And swedish mainstream wants to take more.
Define "taking care" please
You ran out of drinks and food, the party is over, but still you invite more people, those people will get angry, and you have a problem. If you don't wake up soon, you will get something like SD in government at the next election, or the one after that.
And believe me, no one wants that. (me neither.)
If noone wants that, 13% wouldnt be voting for them
(And believe me. If its about relieving people in immediate danger of death, you can save millions of Syrian lives for the Billions you spend on immigration of a few thousand. So it doesn't compute if morality is your goal either. )
Another SD argument that is invalid, they will not be able to change the amount of immigrants much in which case they cant spend more money helping people in the warzones (which in itself is a stupid argument), we are bound by international agreements - Denmark for instance, that some say has a much lower rate of incoming immigrants - it differs 2%, and SD claims they will decrease it by 90% - and most morons think they can actually do that and vote for them. With the money they will save on this, they will lower the taxes for all senior citizens - old people say horray but still since he cant change the amount of immigrants more than a couple of percents - its not doable.
SD is a party of racists, it does not matter much if all their voters arent - their voters wont have much say when/if they get enough power.
When? After 2 generations? 3? And you want the stream to be kept constant. While the native population is now below replacement levels. Maybe you should be able to draw conclusions from that, or is that too fucking hard to understand? It's simple mathematics.
You tell me, what IS the limit? 10 percent? 20 percent? Heck, theres nothing wrong with immigrants anyways. They're just people. Why not 50 percent? It's not like culture or historical identity is in any way significant. Balkanize it to it's core, there's no such thing as a "swede" anyways. It's an arbitrary identification based on nothing but antiquated and barbarous tribal identity. Better for it to die a quick death, and CERTAINLY the rest of the world will follow. Obviously, because it's so self-evidently good and moral and will lead to the Cultural Singularity.
The stream wont be constant ofc - not since the WW2 have we all been dealing with the amount of refugees in the world that we do right now - you think that will go on forever? These peaks lasts for about 6-12 years historically depending on the situation. And no, usually the children born here and the children growing up here adapt to family planning - it doesnt take 3 generations.
But to me it seems, it dont matter if they work and pay taxes, it dont matter if 99.78% percent of them DONT rape people, it doesnt matter if the absolute majority of them are NOT criminals, it doesnt matter if they do all the things right in the world - what matters is that they are different and that scares the shit out of you
SD is a party of racists
- they are ready to get to work from day one, figure of speakRiiite.. maybe you need a reality check. It's not like you need to learn swedish (Any new language is hard for people 35+) , have relevant approved education, have some understanding of swedish culture, get over war traumas etc etc. In practice it is very hard for anyone. I know, I've been living in Poland for 7 years, and even if norwegian and polish culture are not THAT different, It's hard as fuck to be accepted by the poles, (and accept them in return :D )
Again, over tha past 8 years we took in several 100k and the unemploymentrate stayed the same - your point is invalidRofl. So you are saying that without immigrants unemployment would now be at 0%? All that shows is that sweden is able to create new jobs. You have 8% unemployment, way higher than rest of scandinavia.
Define "taking care" please
helping people in the warzones (which in itself is a stupid argument)
we are bound by international agreements
The White Guilt is strong in some of you. I wish I lived in a world where white people were proud of their heritage and not invaded by third world aliens.
I guess the Swedes of tomorrow will be all colours,but white. Isn't what you're looking for?Only time will prove it. I'm eager to see the results in 50 years.
That I agree on!
Ok
But ask yourself WHY a racist party now has 14% of the seats in parliament? As far as I understand, the common explanation among the baffled and confused mainstream media is that the right wing government has created "a cold capitalist society with more poverty".
What utter bullshit.
Really? We have seen this issues arise Before, last time we had a major economic setback - a racist party formed, and alot of people voted for them. And please explain why this is happening all over europe at the exact same timeperiod - despite the fact that all we have very different immigrant policies and regulations - at the same time the economic crisis hit us all. One could claim, that despite sweden having one of the most humane immigrant policies in Europe - racism hasnt appeared in force untill the last couple of years - while in other EU countries it has ben going on for some time. There is never one easy solution or explanation - but saying the economic crisis has nothing to do with SD gaining support Thomek, would really put you in the utter bullshit department. 1920-30:s Germany, economic crisis, extreme party gaining votes remember? Or perhaps we should pin that on the jews? You want more historical referencies to bad economy adding votes to far left and right extreme Groups?
The true reason is that a lot of people think immigration is higher than sweden can handle. End of story. There are none, ZERO other alternatives to vote for if this is important to a voter. Intelligent people now voted SD. Professors, middle class.. Those are protest votes, not racist votes.
Riiite.. maybe you need a reality check. It's not like you need to learn swedish (Any new language is hard for people 35+) , have relevant approved education, have some understanding of swedish culture, get over war traumas etc etc. In practice it is very hard for anyone. I know, I've been living in Poland for 7 years, and even if norwegian and polish culture are not THAT different, It's hard as fuck to be accepted by the poles, (and accept them in return :D )
Not really, Swedish lagnuage isnt needed for low pay jobs like doing dishes or whatever, education isnt that relevant either in many cases - if you havent noticed we have had a large sector of servicejobs growing over the last 10-15 years that are hiring alot. What i mean is that a 20 year old man coming here, is ready to work more or less, society doesnt have to pay the cost of bringing him up to a working age(could prolly get the facts on that cost if you want) and he is able to work untill he is 65 as it is now.
Rofl. So you are saying that without immigrants unemployment would now be at 0%? All that shows is that sweden is able to create new jobs. You have 8% unemployment, way higher than rest of scandinavia.
.....sigh*.....some people.........alot of the new jobs are created because of our polulation growing, also because we have a large portion of older people going into retirement we need people to fill their Place and more people to take care of them. Butif we didnt grow as a pop- the amount of new jobs wouldnt increase at the same pace
Check this list btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate)
Did you know Romania, Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Czech Republic and hungary, to take some examples, all have lower unemployment?
Check basnaks post earlier about why we have the rate we do
Like NOT stashing them in ghettos, where they live on minimal welfare, and minimal contact with swedish society? Why do sweden have ghettos while i.ex Norway doesn't in any comparable degree? I'm sure it's a very convenient way to keep it like that so you don't have to see them so much.
Its not perfect I agree, but comparing Norway to Sweden isnt very relevant on this matter, you hardly have cities to start off with. And to call them ghettos just proves you havent been in one of those places - i have lived in one, while some of my friends that live in the countryside wouldnt dare enter one with a bulletproof vest cause they are scared shitless after hearing all the bs propaganda
An immigrant should have a chance to live a good life in the country he comes to. That means contact with that country and its people.
Does it? Tell me about Little italy and Little China and how those places arent good for their population. I know Swedish "colonies" abroad that are very happy just speaking Swedish, and occasionally some native tongue of needed - they seem happy to me and they also stay together in the same places
Why exactly? For the billions you spend keeping the immigrants in sweden, I'm sure you could do a lot more in a cheaper country.
This is true, as norway and denmark too. Somehow though, you manage to take in few times as many immigrants per pop as denmark/norway do.
And we actually have an increase of jobs while u dont, our economy has stood pretty strong during the crisis compared to most other nations in Europe - despite us taking in more immigrants every year for the last 50 years or so than most others
14%. Why?
Link please, cause from what I have seen - the difference isnt that large (and no rightwing extreme medialink please)
Ok just to calm my tits. What I would like to see is not SD in government, or winning even more in elections. That would be a tragedy for sweden. I would wish the normal parties to wake up and smell the napalm in the morning. They need to start turning the ship and actually listen to what the population wants (less immigration) OR you will get served SD and get a massive hangover. Thats how democracy works.
The most disgusting thing here is how you cant even speak about sensible immigration policy without being branded a racist, right wing nazi, hater. All the liberal, democratic, free speech and discourse ideas sure go down the toilet fast when something you dont agree with is being discussed.
It's fabulous wayyyyyne. (http://forum.melee.org/closed-requests/fallen_wayyyyyne/)
We can do this for several years, we wont get anywhereComparing Muslim immigrants to Finnish immigrants is retarded, there's literally nothing similar about the two. Finns came over to Sweden to work hard, that's the whole reason they came over, they were familiar with the culture, the line between Finnish/Swedish is almost non-existent in some parts of Finland, Finns are taught Swedish, Finns have a similar culture, Finland is right next to Sweden, Finns have a similar religion..
Your arguments arent new, mine arent new - we have a different view of these matters and only time will tell
Your stance in this, is more or less the same stance as when we took in every other wave of refugees and foreigners historically
The Fins during the 50-70:s
The Greeks, italians and Yogoslavs during the 60-70:s
The Balkans during the 90:s
Irakis early 2000
The people that were against these immigrants had more or less the same arguments you and SD share right now. Just like we can today laugh about what was said about the Fins when they came here and noone talks today about the Greek/italian/turk immigrants from the 60-70 as a problem anymore - we even had a SD-like party in the 90:s cause of the "major" balkan issues we were facing after taking them in, and like SD they claimed all the shit you do.
If you are old enough to, Im sure you were saying the same shit back in the 90:s as you do now - but back then it was about the former Yugoslavs
History repeats itself, over and over again - all new things or Changes will allways have the ones saying "that wont work, it will be bad, its evil, its a Conspiracy" and so on. Its not new, it wont stop.
Oh my god, can you stay out of this thread, Xant?No, but you can.
I'm not the one acting like a retard pushing a dead argument on every thread on the forum. But let's not turn it in to one of these ones.A dead argument? What are you smoking?
Well, far-left facists have no tolerance against anything that isn't conform with their view of the world, which of course is a fantasy-land that doesn't exist, thus people with a bit of brain don't see it.Made me giggle - thank you :lol:
Also, they have no arguments whatsoever, so the only thing left for them is to call people with other opinions racists and na zis, when in fact, the only na zis are themselves.
Comparing Muslim immigrants to Finnish immigrants is retarded, there's literally nothing similar about the two. Finns came over to Sweden to work hard, that's the whole reason they came over, they were familiar with the culture, the line between Finnish/Swedish is almost non-existent in some parts of Finland, Finns are taught Swedish, Finns have a similar culture, Finland is right next to Sweden, Finns have a similar religion..visitors can't see pics , please register or login
It just shows how little you understand the situation.
I know you were comparing reactions, and the comparison is extremely flawed because the groups are completely different. Finns didn't ghetto up and vastly over-represent themselves in Sweden's crime statistics, neither did most/any other groups you mention.
I compared the reaction from our society to those Groups of immigrants and how those reactions were similar - not that the Groups were similar in any way.
Example:
*New Group comes to our country (it could be the smurfs for all I care, it has nothing to do with the point)
*The Group as a whole is given certain skills or identities or behaviourial patterns from people that need to label groups
*Fins for example were looked upon like this: "they all drink and have knifefights, robs old women and are alcoholics - they are scary and dangerous" (very simplified version)
*Former yogoslavians were labelled like this "Crime, mafia, rape, strange Culture, dangerous, stupid"
So no matter what the change is, or when it occurs - there will allways be a certain amount of people fearing change and the unknown - may it be immigrants or new Music, today we laugh at the people in the 60:s that viewed Fins the way they did - if you lived back then, perhaps you would be one of them Xant :)
I know you were comparing reactions, and the comparison is extremely flawed because the groups are completely different. Finns didn't ghetto up and vastly over-represent themselves in Sweden's crime statistics, neither did most/any other groups you mention.
You're trying to downplay legit criticisms as "fear of the unknown" by pointing at the past where people overreacted.... but that doesn't mean things are fine right now, and there are statistics to support those criticisms, unlike before.
SD had 20 seats in parliament before election, now they have 49.
Something ain't right in sweden, that's a fact. :rolleyes:
I'm not usually the one to scream Political Correctness!! But in Sweden it truly is a big problem.. What you have to do is to make it possible to be openly against immigration without being labeled a racist/chocolate chip cookie. Because they are NOT the same thing.
They are not the same thing, I agree with that. However I have yet to hear about an European anti-immigration party that isn't either openly xenophobic or very thinly disguised as not racist. Parties like SD are poisoning the issue because branding them as racists is perfectly legit while at the same time we need to have a serious debate about immigration, and that's the reason normal (i.e. no racist) people are voting for them. I'd even go as far as to say it's fine to vote for them as long as you are clever enough to not let them into an actual position of power. It's necessary to slap the traditional parties in the face when they are neglecting important issues. They are huge, conservative beasts which have a very hard time changing their ways, they need wake up calls. However if you seriously hope things would improve if the extremists were in power, you are an idiot.
It also seems to me that regardless of the issue, young voters are attracted to extremist, single-minded parties (like the Pirate Party). The problem is that it's impossible to be single-minded when you have power.
single-minded parties (like the Pirate Party).
Bunch of sad stories, people calling them racists then cuts out without letting them respond, or just clips of someone lying saying that SD wants to stop immigration completely and the not give a shit about those who are in the warzones. Oh and the super dramatic music playing in the backgroung. Disgusting but effective, this is why most people hate on the party without knowing jack shit about their politics.
Its unfortunate that some in the party are being racist, but it cant be helped, but the politics of SD still arent racist. It might attract racists because its the only party that wants to decrease immigration though.
Edited in on previous post, but social democrats have a pretty dark background aswell, its not only SD. SD's is more recent though, but they were just chanting, and never had any control to change anything. Social democrats did though, and made some weird choices. Looking at backgrounds is silly, listen to what they have to say now instead.
Do you follow their recent work? Pirate is only in their name, that party is suggesting some very exciting changes to EU copyright laws: http://www.copyrightreform.eu/case-for-copyright-reform. Read it when you find time and please don't judge it before you educate yourself.
Well that's exactly my point. I personally applaud the Pirate Parties for their knowledge of the issues of the Internet and IP laws, towering high above any other political sphere. The problem is that they also have very retarded positions on other issuesCould you tell a couple of examples?
Well that's exactly my point. I personally applaud the Pirate Parties for their knowledge of the issues of the Internet and IP laws, towering high above any other political sphere. The problem is that they also have very retarded positions on other issues which are often idiosyncratic with whoever is in charge of the local Pirate Party and which I cannot possibly be supporting. The problem is that I can't select what I want. It's the whole package or nothing. Especially in simple majority systems, those parties can do a very good job being scary and force the big ones to adapt, but not much more.
Could you tell a couple of examples?
That's the problem of political system more then theirs. Their party, just like the Green party aren't wide range political parties.
They specialize in one area. Experts should be chosen during election process, that would speed things up. People should have the right to choose specific representatives, that would make it more transparent. It would put higher burden on voters because they would need to educate themselves, but as I stated before, I'm not for voting right based on birth. Have strong belief that, just like everything else, voting right has to be deserved.
Political parties of today suck because they tend to collect different individuals under one banner and then appoint them to govern the state. Which means those individuals choose the party mostly based on ideology which is very primitive. Do you know professional who choose company that wants to hire him based on ideology? Ideologies have no time and place in modern world, those are outdated and failed concepts. Individual needs stronger tie to a party he belongs to than widely defined ideology provides.
You're right about the issue, but your solution isn't proper. Don't try to fit cubes into round holes, change the frame so they can fit. Change the whole political system, modernize it. Greens and pirates and similar parties that revolve around specific movements are new and fresh, political system is the dinosaur.