Swedish election

[Kafein]

Fine, just expected and normal. You have a large unassimilated population of poor foreigners with no jobs, it's bound to happen.
So what's your solution then? Obviously importing even bigger waves of poor foreigners will fix it! 

Well yeah, an influx of poor people decreases security, there's no question about that. What I claim is that this "mass immigration" is only a problem in societies where a large part of the economy is directed by the state, such as Sweden. It is possible to support the natural flow of immigrants by reforming the fiscal system in order to support a larger poor population (reducing minimum wages and the fiscal burden of employing people in general, reducing VAT and increasing income tax...). It worked for the US, I don't see why it can't work for Sweden. The reason I think it's preferable to do that rather than restricting immigration more than already done is largely ideological, as I believe I prefer being free to live and work wherever I damn well please. The main reason I despise parties such as SD is because the anti-immigration rhetoric is only a facade for their xenophobic baseline and it saddens me greatly to see so many people like Panos being so naive.

[Thomek]

Ah.. Sweden, most politically absurd country in Europe..

They speak about norwegian right wing populists (in government atm) as Fascists.. Like.. seriously so. While sweden itself has a long and much stronger tradition of n a z i s and neo n a z i s than either norway or denmark.

This they choose to ignore of course.

I think what we see going on in sweden is a threat to swedish identity itself, as "Good and progressive" people. Something that is historically true. They have been on the forefront of emancipation of women and human rights, since before wwii.. (When they cooperated with the n a z i s, being "neutral", black spot..)

SD is on collision course with this identity, and this doesn't compute in the heads of the brainwashed. They come up with all kinds of creative excuses for the success of SD, while the very fact is that thinking people are trying give them a wake up call, for this is what this election result is. Those voters don't actually WANT SD in power. It's a party of former neo n a z i s and criminals.

They are just sick of the completely fucked up swedish debate, where it is impossible to be critical of immigration and stay "a decent person". The tragedy of it all is that sweden don't look after their immigrants. In norway they are integrated all over the country. Small places, big cities, they all have to carry their share. In sweden they are packed into ghettos.. The cultural elite doesn't live in places where they actually meet immigrants on the street, and stockholm city centre has way fewer immigrants than i.ex centre of oslo.

It's mad mad double moralism.

[Leshma]

I'm so glad that every single person I've met in this community for past 4 years, that I considered being a shithead is right wing nationalist prick in real life. Does wonders for faith in my ability to see through people just after analyzing their behavior for few hours, and it works in virtual environment as well.

So far, hatred for Mercenaries clan has been completely justified because they obviously very high percentage of nationalists among their ranks.

[Oberyn]

Birth rate Sweden :
(this is total births, if it was native swedes only...)11.78 births/1,000 population

Birth rate of Somalia, the second largest source of immigrants for Sweden in 2012:
40.87 births/1,000 population (2014 est.)

Yeah those are practically the same! Hahaha.
Too bad there wasn't an accompanying axis for total population in that video, you'd see the very obvious effect of many western countries falling bellow replacement levels (Sweden included) and the fact that effects of infrastructure, education and health on child mortality in developping countries fast outpace the slowly falling birth rate. Which means, massively exploding populations in the developping worlds and literally vanishing populations in some developped countries. Why do you think there are immigrants in the first place, ffs? For the developping world to even start reaching that level of population "stability" will take generations, and that's taking this man's incredibly generous projections that the developping world becoming developped will be as fast and smooth a transition as it was elsewhere. What do you think will happen in the meantime?

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[Gravoth_iii]

We already covered the job issue, it isnt one. Otherwise how could 400000 immigrants come here during the worst economical crisis since the 30:s and the unemployment rate didnt go up more than it has before. This only during the last 8 years. They get jobs, lowcost ones mostly like kaffein says - but they get jobs.

And the blocks of immigrants, well I have lived in one of those, one of the "worst" according to SD and my ass and wallet didnt get raped.

Like kaffein mentioned, poor people has a higher crimerate in general, but it doesnt differ between poor swedes and poor immigrants - it never has. Also, funny fact - SD representatives has a higher % of criminals than any immigrant gruop there is. And what about the male population, according to SD logic they are much more eager to commit crimes than females - lets stop the males from getting born by using abortion!!! 

I never mentioned anything about rape in those blocks, just that it becomes a split society when they dont learn swedish and only hang around with other people of the same background.

Sure theres no difference between a poor swede and a poor immigrant. But there also is no need to bring in poor immigrants if we cant help them get a good job etc. If we just bring them in and keep them poor its understandable that some may resort to crime or whatever. Sweden should be able to care for everyone that comes to this country and not leave them poor, if they are forced to live poor lives here, which could lead to them starting to do criminal business, then we should find a better solution. Them being miserable here, creating even more misery through crime is not a good solution. Spending more money on helping them in their own countries/neighbour countries, where it can be spend more efficiently, helps more than bringing them here and creating misery when we cant keep them occupied.

[GRANDMOM]

Ah.. Sweden, most politically absurd country in Europe..

They speak about norwegian right wing populists (in government atm) as Fascists.. Like.. seriously so. While sweden itself has a long and much stronger tradition of n a z i s and neo n a z i s than either norway or denmark.

This they choose to ignore of course.

I think what we see going on in sweden is a threat to swedish identity itself, as "Good and progressive" people. Something that is historically true. They have been on the forefront of emancipation of women and human rights, since before wwii.. (When they cooperated with the n a z i s, being "neutral", black spot..)

SD is on collision course with this identity, and this doesn't compute in the heads of the brainwashed. They come up with all kinds of creative excuses for the success of SD, while the very fact is that thinking people are trying give them a wake up call, for this is what this election result is. Those voters don't actually WANT SD in power. It's a party of former neo n a z i s and criminals.

They are just sick of the completely fucked up swedish debate, where it is impossible to be critical of immigration and stay "a decent person". The tragedy of it all is that sweden don't look after their immigrants. In norway they are integrated all over the country. Small places, big cities, they all have to carry their share. In sweden they are packed into ghettos.. The cultural elite doesn't live in places where they actually meet immigrants on the street, and stockholm city centre has way fewer immigrants than i.ex centre of oslo.

It's mad mad double moralism.

So, Thomek - what exactly is then the problems with the immigrants?

[GRANDMOM]

Birth rate Sweden :
(this is total births, if it was native swedes only...)11.78 births/1,000 population

Birth rate of Somalia, the second largest source of immigrants for Sweden in 2012:
40.87 births/1,000 population (2014 est.)

Yeah those are practically the same! Hahaha.
Too bad there wasn't an accompanying axis for total population in that video, you'd see the very obvious effect of many western countries falling bellow replacement levels (Sweden included) and the fact that effects of infrastructure, education and health on child mortality in developping countries fast outpace the slowly falling birth rate. Which means, massively exploding populations in the developping worlds and literally vanishing populations in some developped countries. Why do you think there are immigrants in the first place, ffs? For the developping world to even start reaching that level of population "stability" will take generations, and that's taking this man's incredibly generous projections that the developping world becoming developped will be as fast and smooth a transition as it was elsewhere. What do you think will happen in the meantime?

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Yeah Im sure you are right and he is wrong, I mean what could he know? Oberyn says nope

[Oberyn]

Where did I say he was wrong? The only criticism I offered was the suspicious lack of a population growth axis on his graphic and his positive view (which even he himself dubs a "dream") of future progress of developping countries. That the most developped a country, the lower the population growth (even sometimes falling below population replacement levels) is something every kid learns in school. It's not a mindblowing shattering revelation, sorry.
Nice appeal to authority though, I'm sure this guy's blatant population control environmental agenda doesn't color his statistics or presentation at all. Obviously only the most objective and pure as the driven-snow apolitical speakers even present their findings at TedX talks.

Even if I were to take everything he says at face value, I still see no arguement for immigration in his talk. If anything the money we spend on immigrants we should send to their governments instead to help build the infrastructure needed, according to that logic.

[GRANDMOM]

I never mentioned anything about rape in those blocks, just that it becomes a split society when they dont learn swedish and only hang around with other people of the same background.

Sure theres no difference between a poor swede and a poor immigrant. But there also is no need to bring in poor immigrants if we cant help them get a good job etc. If we just bring them in and keep them poor its understandable that some may resort to crime or whatever. Sweden should be able to care for everyone that comes to this country and not leave them poor, if they are forced to live poor lives here, which could lead to them starting to do criminal business, then we should find a better solution. Them being miserable here, creating even more misery through crime is not a good solution. Spending more money on helping them in their own countries/neighbour countries, where it can be spend more efficiently, helps more than bringing them here and creating misery when we cant keep them occupied.

I have two daughters

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Having them here in swedish "poverty" not being able to "care" for them or in a conflict somewhere inside Syria or in the vicinity if IS killing spree - they choice would be easy

Children, families, brothers and sisters and father and grandfathers are fleeing for their lives - these are the ones SD wants to stop at the border and send back. We have seen waves of refugees many times before, Balkan wars during the 90:s and so on. Its not gonna last forever, but right now people are dying, hurting, getting raped, bombed and slaughtered

If the numbers and economy cant make some of you guys see, then perhaps some fucking humanity could work?

[Thomek]

So, Thomek - what exactly is then the problems with the immigrants?

So grandmom, you think it's ok to invite people to your country and not be able to treat them well? You think it's ok if you invite 10 friends to your house and 100 come?  You have enough food and drink for them? Where is the limit?

I'm not against immigration per se. It's just that there are limits, and that you take 1% of the population of sweden per year, with an 8+% unemployment, that doesn't compute. These people start at the bottom of society, and will not be the ones to get a job first.

So they have to be on welfare until they learn swedish, take education, and then maybe can get a job. In the meanwhile everyone else has to pay for their roof and food.

All that is fine and normal when it comes to refugees, but there is a point when the price gets too high. Why do you think you had those revolts?

Because you are not even able to care for those you have. That's a fact! And swedish mainstream wants to take more.

You ran out of drinks and food, the party is over, but still you invite more people, those people will get angry, and you have a problem. If you don't wake up soon, you will get something like SD in government at the next election, or the one after that.

And believe me, no one wants that. (me neither.)

(And believe me. If its about relieving people in immediate danger of death, you can save millions of Syrian lives for the Billions you spend on immigration of a few thousand. So it doesn't compute if morality is your goal either. )

[Bittersteel]

Ah.. Sweden, most politically absurd country in Europe..

They speak about norwegian right wing populists (in government atm) as Fascists.. Like.. seriously so. While sweden itself has a long and much stronger tradition of n a z i s and neo n a z i s than either norway or denmark.

This they choose to ignore of course.

No one in Sweden is ignoring that, It's one of the biggest issues today and it's being discussed daily.

I think what we see going on in sweden is a threat to swedish identity itself, as "Good and progressive" people. Something that is historically true. They have been on the forefront of emancipation of women and human rights, since before wwii.. (When they cooperated with the n a z i s, being "neutral", black spot..)

Oh my god, not this again.

SD is on collision course with this identity, and this doesn't compute in the heads of the brainwashed. They come up with all kinds of creative excuses for the success of SD, while the very fact is that thinking people are trying give them a wake up call, for this is what this election result is. Those voters don't actually WANT SD in power. It's a party of former neo n a z i s and criminals.

So you mean that 637894 voted on SD cause they were dissapointed in the current government? Many old people including my Grandmother had and have no idea what SD's main question is, voting on them because they promise privileges for people over 65. Racists, people that aren't racist but still want the immegration to be lowered are the main elite voting. So don't come and say that 637,894 people of 4,816,418 voted on them because of that.

They are just sick of the completely fucked up swedish debate, where it is impossible to be critical of immigration and stay "a decent person". The tragedy of it all is that sweden don't look after their immigrants. In norway they are integrated all over the country. Small places, big cities, they all have to carry their share. In sweden they are packed into ghettos.. The cultural elite doesn't live in places where they actually meet immigrants on the street, and stockholm city centre has way fewer immigrants than i.ex centre of oslo.

You're kidding right? Please tell me, you are.

It's mad mad double moralism.

Like Granny wrote just above, even if the things you say would be true, I wouldn't give a crap. We are offering them to live, I'm pretty fucking sure they are grateful to come here and be taken care of and to be integrated into the society and function as a part of it, instead of dying - Atleast I would.

[GRANDMOM]

Where did I say he was wrong? The only criticism I offered was the suspicious lack of a population growth axis on his graphic and his positive view (which even he himself dubs a "dream") of future progress of developping countries. That the most developped a country, the lower the population growth (even sometimes falling below population replacement levels) is something every kid learns in school. It's not a mindblowing shattering revelation, sorry.
Nice appeal to authority though, I'm sure this guy's blatant population control environmental agenda doesn't color his statistics or presentation at all. Obviously only the most objective and pure as the driven-snow apolitical speakers even present their findings at TedX talks.

Even if I were to take everything he says at face value, I still see no arguement for immigration in his talk. If anything the money we spend on immigrants we should send to their governments instead to help build the infrastructure needed, according to that logic.

I showed u this cause you were going on about immigrants being babymachines, well since child mortality is low in sweden, the amount of children in immigrants families will decrease ofc - do I have to spell it out for you? You should be able to draw some conclusions at least - if I have to explain everything I say in small words its gonna be to tiresome

[Oberyn]

Think of the children! The last refuge of the moralizing cunt.
In this particular case I agree however. Refugees are an entire different matter. I don't put refugee immigration in the same boat as economic immigration. I would just hope there is at least a modicum of oversight over who is let in exactly. More syrians than any other nationality this year, including the somalians, former heavyweights who couldn't manage a showing in the face of the waves of people fleeing Syria.

[Oberyn]

I showed u this cause you were going on about immigrants being babymachines, well since child mortality is low in sweden, the amount of children in immigrants families will decrease ofc - do I have to spell it out for you? You should be able to draw some conclusions at least - if I have to explain everything I say in small words its gonna be to tiresome

When? After 2 generations? 3? And you want the stream to be kept constant. While the native population is now below replacement levels. Maybe you should be able to draw conclusions from that, or is that too fucking hard to understand? It's simple mathematics.

[Gravoth_iii]

So grandmom, you think it's ok to invite people to your country and not be able to treat them well? You think it's ok if you invite 10 friends to your house and 100 come?  You have enough food and drink for them? Where is the limit?

I'm not against immigration per se. It's just that there are limits, and that you take 1% of the population of sweden per year, with an 8+% unemployment, that doesn't compute. These people start at the bottom of society, and will not be the ones to get a job first.

So they have to be on welfare until they learn swedish, take education, and then maybe can get a job. In the meanwhile everyone else has to pay for their roof and food.

All that is fine and normal when it comes to refugees, but there is a point when the price gets too high. Why do you think you had those revolts?

Because you are not even able to care for those you have. That's a fact! And swedish mainstream wants to take more.

You ran out of drinks and food, the party is over, but still you invite more people, those people will get angry, and you have a problem. If you don't wake up soon, you will get something like SD in government at the next election, or the one after that.

And believe me, no one wants that. (me neither.)

(And believe me. If its about relieving people in immediate danger of death, you can save millions of Syrian lives for the Billions you spend on immigration of a few thousand. So it doesn't compute if morality is your goal either. )

Exactly this.

If we save a couple of thousands, sure they will be safe here, but then theres still a huge chunk left behind who clearly are not safe. But If we spend the same money and attempt to put a larger amount of them somewhere close that is relatively safe then we are also saving more while at the same time keeping our own country stabile. It wont be as safe as taking them all the way over here to sweden would be, but in the long run i believe that it would save more lives.