Swedish election

[Dansk viking]

since child mortality is low in sweden, the amount of children in immigrants families will decrease ofc

How does this logic work?

[Oberyn]

It's true, but only after a generation or two, and only if integrated at least at a lower to mid class economic level. But the majority of immigrants are overwhelmingly represented at the lower socioeconomic scale of society, the very same mechanisms that supposedly lower their birth rate don't affect them at all, education not the least.
Assimilation a dirty racist concept anyways. Much better to have a diversity of cultures and social mores anyways, amiright?

[GRANDMOM]

So grandmom, you think it's ok to invite people to your country and not be able to treat them well? You think it's ok if you invite 10 friends to your house and 100 come?  You have enough food and drink for them? Where is the limit?

You tell me, its not me voting for SD - so you should know I guess - where is the limit Thomek?

I'm not against immigration per se. It's just that there are limits, and that you take 1% of the population of sweden per year, with an 8+% unemployment, that doesn't compute. These people start at the bottom of society, and will not be the ones to get a job first.

Again, over tha past 8 years we took in several 100k and the unemploymentrate stayed the same - your point is invalid

So they have to be on welfare until they learn swedish, take education, and then maybe can get a job. In the meanwhile everyone else has to pay for their roof and food.

So, the point before this one pretty much neglects this one, I am not even gonna go on about 20-65 year old immigrants doesnt have to go through 13 years of school, free healthcare, free dentals and so on that cost the state tons of money for every citizent born here - they are ready to get to work from day one, figure of speak

All that is fine and normal when it comes to refugees, but there is a point when the price gets too high. Why do you think you had those revolts?

Because you are not even able to care for those you have. That's a fact! And swedish mainstream wants to take more.

Define "taking care" please

You ran out of drinks and food, the party is over, but still you invite more people, those people will get angry, and you have a problem. If you don't wake up soon, you will get something like SD in government at the next election, or the one after that.

And believe me, no one wants that. (me neither.)

If noone wants that, 13% wouldnt be voting for them

(And believe me. If its about relieving people in immediate danger of death, you can save millions of Syrian lives for the Billions you spend on immigration of a few thousand. So it doesn't compute if morality is your goal either. )

Another SD argument that is invalid, they will not be able to change the amount of immigrants much in which case they cant spend more money helping people in the warzones (which in itself is a stupid argument), we are bound by international agreements - Denmark for instance, that some say has a much lower rate of incoming immigrants - it differs 2%, and SD claims they will decrease it by 90% - and most morons think they can actually do that and vote for them. With the money they will save on this, they will lower the taxes for all senior citizens - old people say horray but still since he cant change the amount of immigrants more than a couple of percents - its not doable.

SD is a party of racists, it does not matter much if all their voters arent - their voters wont have much say when/if they get enough power.

[Oberyn]

You tell me, what IS the limit? 10 percent? 20 percent? Heck, theres nothing wrong with immigrants anyways. They're just people. Why not 50 percent? It's not like culture or historical identity is in any way significant. Balkanize it to it's core, there's no such thing as a "swede" anyways. It's an arbitrary identification based on nothing but antiquated and barbarous tribal identity. Better for it to die a quick death, and CERTAINLY the rest of the world will follow. Obviously, because it's so self-evidently good and moral and will lead to the Cultural Singularity.

[GRANDMOM]

When? After 2 generations? 3? And you want the stream to be kept constant. While the native population is now below replacement levels. Maybe you should be able to draw conclusions from that, or is that too fucking hard to understand? It's simple mathematics.

The stream wont be constant ofc - not since the WW2 have we all been dealing with the amount of refugees in the world that we do right now - you think that will go on forever? These peaks lasts for about 6-12 years historically depending on the situation. And no, usually the children born here and the children growing up here adapt to family planning - it doesnt take 3 generations.

But to me it seems, it dont matter if they work and pay taxes, it dont matter if 99.78% percent of them DONT rape people, it doesnt matter if the absolute majority of them are NOT criminals,  it doesnt matter if they do all the things right in the world - what matters is that they are different and that scares the shit out of you

[GRANDMOM]

You tell me, what IS the limit? 10 percent? 20 percent? Heck, theres nothing wrong with immigrants anyways. They're just people. Why not 50 percent? It's not like culture or historical identity is in any way significant. Balkanize it to it's core, there's no such thing as a "swede" anyways. It's an arbitrary identification based on nothing but antiquated and barbarous tribal identity. Better for it to die a quick death, and CERTAINLY the rest of the world will follow. Obviously, because it's so self-evidently good and moral and will lead to the Cultural Singularity.

What are u afraid of? What is it that scares you so much?

[Oberyn]

And no answer of course. You wouldn't see a problem with a Sweden with 50% of immigrant descended population? Obviously the only reason to be against the deliberate and progressive erasing of your people is fear. And fear leads to hatred, and hatred leads to racism. I know you're itching to go there since it's the go-to arguement for balless, self-hating morons. You can delude yourself with your futuristic fantasy, I'll base my perspective on reality and the present. We haven't entered some amazing age where everything will change. Humans are still humans. People are people. Tribalism is never going to die. The only people that don't seem to grasp this are euro nations. No one else is following you in your suicidal folly. No one else will.

Fucking typical anyways. "Psha, only racist conspiracists think immigrants will outbreed us!"
"So what if the population eventually gets replaced? What are you, racist?"

[Chosen1]

I hereby propose this as the new flag of Swedenistan:

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[Oberyn]

The stream wont be constant ofc - not since the WW2 have we all been dealing with the amount of refugees in the world that we do right now - you think that will go on forever? These peaks lasts for about 6-12 years historically depending on the situation. And no, usually the children born here and the children growing up here adapt to family planning - it doesnt take 3 generations.

But to me it seems, it dont matter if they work and pay taxes, it dont matter if 99.78% percent of them DONT rape people, it doesnt matter if the absolute majority of them are NOT criminals,  it doesnt matter if they do all the things right in the world - what matters is that they are different and that scares the shit out of you

Immigrant and emmigrant rate for Sweden over the years. You don't see a trend?
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As for your magical one generation change in birth rates, I'm going to have to see some stats on that. Everyone agrees there is a convergence, but it is not over one generation, far from it. Immigrants inside Sweden still have much more robust birth-rates than the natives, who, again, are below replacement level.

[Thomek]

SD is a party of racists

That I agree on!

But ask yourself WHY a racist party now has 14% of the seats in parliament? As far as I understand, the common explanation among the baffled and confused mainstream media is that the right wing government has created "a cold capitalist society with more poverty".

What utter bullshit.

The true reason is that a lot of people think immigration is higher than sweden can handle. End of story. There are none, ZERO other alternatives to vote for if this is important to a voter. Intelligent people now voted SD. Professors, middle class.. Those are protest votes, not racist votes.

- they are ready to get to work from day one, figure of speak

Riiite.. maybe you need a reality check. It's not like you need to learn swedish (Any new language is hard for people 35+) , have relevant approved education, have some understanding of swedish culture, get over war traumas etc etc. In practice it is very hard for anyone. I know, I've been living in Poland for 7 years, and even if norwegian and polish culture are not THAT different, It's hard as fuck to be accepted by the poles, (and accept them in return )

Again, over tha past 8 years we took in several 100k and the unemploymentrate stayed the same - your point is invalid

Rofl. So you are saying that without immigrants unemployment would now be at 0%? All that shows is that sweden is able to create new jobs. You have 8% unemployment, way higher than rest of scandinavia.

Check this list btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate
Did you know Romania, Ukraine, Moldova, Russia, Czech Republic and hungary, to take some examples, all have lower unemployment?

Define "taking care" please

Like NOT stashing them in ghettos, where they live on minimal welfare, and minimal contact with swedish society? Why do sweden have ghettos while i.ex Norway doesn't in any comparable degree? I'm sure it's a very convenient way to keep it like that so you don't have to see them so much.

An immigrant should have a chance to live a good life in the country he comes to. That means contact with that country and its people.

helping people in the warzones (which in itself is a stupid argument)

Why exactly? For the billions you spend keeping the immigrants in sweden, I'm sure you could do a lot more in a cheaper country.

we are bound by international agreements

This is true, as norway and denmark too. Somehow though, you manage to take in few times as many immigrants per pop as denmark/norway do.


14%. Why?

Ok just to calm my tits. What I would like to see is not SD in government, or winning even more in elections. That would be a tragedy for sweden. I would wish the normal parties to wake up and smell the napalm in the morning. They need to start turning the ship and actually listen to what the population wants (less immigration) OR you will get served SD and get a massive hangover. Thats how democracy works.

[Lamk]

The White Guilt is strong in some of you. I wish I lived in a world where white people were proud of their heritage and not invaded by third world aliens.
I guess the Swedes of tomorrow will be all colours,but white. Isn't what you're looking for?Only time will prove it. I'm eager to see the results in 50 years.

[BASNAK]

The White Guilt is strong in some of you. I wish I lived in a world where white people were proud of their heritage and not invaded by third world aliens.
I guess the Swedes of tomorrow will be all colours,but white. Isn't what you're looking for?Only time will prove it. I'm eager to see the results in 50 years.

You know you can solve issues with integration, crime and unemployment without Nationalism right? That's one of my main issues with SD is the forced Nationalism and traditionalism.

[GRANDMOM]

We can do this for several years, we wont get anywhere

Your arguments arent new, mine arent new - we have a different view of these matters and only time will tell

Your stance in this, is more or less the same stance as when we took in every other wave of refugees and foreigners historically

The Fins during the 50-70:s
The Greeks, italians and Yogoslavs during the 60-70:s
The Balkans during the 90:s
Irakis early 2000

The people that were against these immigrants had more or less the same arguments you and SD share right now. Just like we can today laugh about what was said about the Fins when they came here and noone talks today about the Greek/italian/turk immigrants from the 60-70 as a problem anymore - we even had a SD-like party in the 90:s cause of the "major" balkan issues we were facing after taking them in, and like SD they claimed all the shit you do.

If you are old enough to, Im sure you were saying the same shit back in the 90:s as you do now - but back then it was about the former Yugoslavs

History repeats itself, over and over again - all new things or Changes will allways have the ones saying "that wont work, it will be bad, its evil, its a Conspiracy" and so on. Its not new, it wont stop.
 

 

[GRANDMOM]

.

[Molly]

Thomek has a good point about those "ghettos".
Germany had a huge influx of Italian and later on Turkish immigrants in the '50s and '60s.
After the war everyone was rebuilding but with a lot of men being dead or unable to work, the country was in need of work force. That's why they actively invited strong young men.

The big mistake they made back then was to not actively mix them with the normal population. Instead they allowed the immigrants - some even supported that - to form their own neighbourhoods. They had their own shops, their bars and pubs, their own restaurants.
Today we can clearly see the result of this missed opportunities. I know from Turkish friends that most of their mothers barely speak German although they've been here for 30 or more years. Simple reason is that they don't need it. The food shop is run by a Turk, the barber is a Turk, the doctor is a Turk... not necessarily in first generation but they all still speak Turkish ofc, even when born here.

I live in a small'ish town for German standards with 550k citizens. Over the years I had normal contact with immigrants in 1st or 2nd generation: school, sport, friends being the main "source" and never ever had any issues with any of them. Seriously, I had more school yard fights with other German boys than with any other group, although we always had - I am guessing this figure now - 20% immigrant kids around. And I guess that is why I have such a liberal stance on the whole immigration business:

I never had any problems whatsoever with any immigrants nor their kids in any way. How could I argue against them?
And that's the reason that lets me assume that all those people in here arguing so hard against immigration never really had any real contact to actual immigrants. Never were invited to a Turkish barbecue, never had the pleasure of a Lebanese mum cooking something for them which they never had/knew and it tasted great, never had a Persian friend who jumped right into a schoolyard fight with you cuz you were outnumbered (by German boys)... Those are my experiences and I am glad I made them.

Sorry for mainly off-topic.