What upsets me is that the pole stabs are seemingly the weakest stabs in the game lately.
Longsword thrusts outreach the war spear's, Danish can outreach a long spear.
It's a shame that the primary stabbing weapons are pretty much always outclassed by swords.
This game is about swords now.
Not at all. If anyone short of a pikeman is outreaching a long spear user it's his own fault. In a teamplay situation, poking weapons are much better than swords.
edit: Just realized that I took something that smegmar said seriously, and replied to it in kind. oops.
What upsets me is that the pole stabs are seemingly the weakest stabs in the game lately.
Longsword thrusts outreach the war spear's, Danish can outreach a long spear.
It's a shame that the primary stabbing weapons are pretty much always outclassed by swords.
This game is about swords now.
I think this is the most important parameter to compare with:
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Longer <=> slower
Shorter <=> faster
The weight and damage (+ damage type) can vary a bit, and thats what gives some weapons an "edge" on other weapons of the same category, but it also follows a quite linear progression between :
More damage <=> more weight
More damage/weight <=> slower
etc...
There must be some "incoherence" somewhere, since cRPG host so many different weapons, but nothing too strange when you really compare all the stats and their equivalent counterparts.
My post doesnt mean that some polearms cant be buffed, just that they doesnt need to be because of the speed and weight that you used to argue.
I think the animation is where we should be tinkering more...
My name is sauce wah wah I'm hot wah wah. Fucking A give the guy what he wants. Hours upon hours of joy thiss guy has brought to my piece of shit worthless non existent life and you can't buff his sharp stick shit? This game is going full retard
improve the polearm thrust animation As it is currently, only the left arm fully extends, which leads to really shitty thrust length
long spear needs a buff? :lol:ooh ooh yes please
Nah, just you.
1h are shorter and that's why they are faster. Same with longsword.
Why didn't u compared arabian cav sword or paramerion?
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So the polearms should be heavier then (Giving them more ability to stun when hitting other weapons.) Or do more damage.
Something doesn't add up when you look at the stats Sauce posted (yes, even taking length into consideration).
How is that naked dude stopping the horse in your gif?
In a teamplay situation, poking weapons are much better than swords.
But swords ARE poking weapons. Take a look around and you will notice that at least 50% of all attacks from 1handed or 2handed sworsmen are stabs, assuming their weapon is capable of doing so.
This thread doesn't take into account two factors. First, how the weapon length and weight stats are strongly connected in that they directly affect a weapons "turnability". Second, polearms are unique in that they receive a weight bonus when blocking an attack. We can't sacrifice functionality simply for the appearance of balance.(click to show/hide)
Seriously, if you complain about polearm speeds being too low get a long axe or LWA, those things are made of better materials than international level tennis rackets.
Coming from someone who uses a long axe almost exclusively, its speed is a joke compared to any 2hander and many 1handers.
Coming from someone who uses a long axe almost exclusively, its speed is a joke compared to any 2hander and many 1handers.
The only polearm that could possibly stand up against 2handers apart from the war spear is perhaps the staff.
If we're going to talk about the little things, stopping your opponents in their tracks is also an invaluable polearm trait that I'm jealous I don't have. That and 3/4 of their attacks got buffed, so I don't believe they should fully match 2h stats without taking that trait into account.
The only polearm that could possibly stand up against 2handers apart from the war spear is perhaps the staff. Even then a HBS or LS can probably outswing you 9 times out of 10 unless perhaps you have vastly superior footwork.
You're far more biased than Panos.. Okay, maybe exaggerated a bit, you're equally biased.
Polearms are strong as fuck, stabbing polearms already dominate the battlefield... would be stupid to buff them
Why should a 4 directional polearm be as good as a 2h when 2/1 directional polearms are already so damn strong? Polearms strength are their versatility, they can fight like a 2h (poleaxe, hafted blades, long axe etc) use a shield (hoplites) and have access to the strongest group fighting weapons in the game (pikes/2 directional lawlpikes) not to mention being able to stop cav... and now, with all the animation changes, 2 directional polearms are just as good at 1v1s as they are at supporting their teammates.
Polearms are strong enough. No buffs please
No polearmer will ever best a 2hander of equal skill in a duel.
You also have to remember that the backswing on left and right swings is much further back, and teammates walk into it all the time. And yes, 2h have a backswing, too, but its much easier to avoid glancing on teammates with it. So, if all other things were equal, performance-wise, the polearm would still be getting shit on.
OMFG !(click to show/hide)
How to get +1 from kaoklai:
-Say 2handers are balanced.
-Say all stabs are perfectly balanced
How to get -1 from kaoklai:
-Point out obvious game breaking mechanics that he always abuses
-Say something that makes sense
I used to make posts that got downvoted by Kaoklai and I was moderately confused/upset by it.
Here I am, 6 months or more later, and I agree with nearly every downvote Kaoklai distributes.
My opinion is this: besides the 1h stab, which was overbuffed by some medium degree, all weapon classes are balanced to one another at a high skill level. Two-handed weapons are easier to be successful with at a low-medium skill level, before players learn advanced footwork, kicking, chambering, successful holding and feinting patterns, et cetera. Certain weapons may be slightly unbalanced within their categories, but as a whole balance is good between weapon categories. Stabbing with four directional polearms is very effective, especially with shorter polearms. I used a bec de corbin for quite a while last generation and the stab was fucking vital to accompany my right-swing spam.
Strength and agility are similar; strength dominant builds are easier to be very effective with at low-medium skill levels, but both are relatively balanced at high skill levels. The disparity between the two stats is quite a bit higher, though. You've got to be pretty fucking good to be as successful at agility builds as strength builds.
I still can't see how anyone thinks 2handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling cryanule or ser butts. ser butts is the infamous left-to-right-swinging-uber-feint-hits-before-animation-or-chance-to-block nerd, while cyranule is something like his protege... pulls off the maneuver but only occasionally.
I still can't see how anyone thinks 2handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling cryanule or ser butts. ser butts is the infamous left-to-right-swinging-uber-feint-hits-before-animation-or-chance-to-block nerd, while cyranule is something like his protege... pulls off the maneuver but only occasionally. The fact that this literally game breaking mechanic exists ONLY for 2handers shows that they are OP/exploitable.
It's not an exploit and very easy to counter. Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit. Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest).
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side.
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing.
The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game. If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"
It's not an exploit and very easy to counter. Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit. Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest).
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side.
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing.
The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game. If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"
It's not an exploit and very easy to counter. Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit. Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest).
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side.
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing.
The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game. If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"
shut up cy. you are bad at the game you are just a noob spammer who could never have any success as 1h, pole, archer, xbow or any kind of cav. the only thing you can do is left swing -> right swing -> left swing -> right swing indefinitely. Fucking bad.
You can't use two of the very best duelists, two-handed or not as an example of why the weapon class is unbalanced.
Look, I can do that too!
I still can't see how anyone thinks 1handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling san or kaoklai.
I still can't see how anyone thinks polearms are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling bigsandwich or voester.
etc etc
shut up cy. you are bad at the game you are just a noob spammer who could never have any success as 1h, pole, archer, xbow or any kind of cav. the only thing you can do is left swing -> right swing -> left swing -> right swing indefinitely. Fucking bad.Seconded. He tried helping me with an xbower yesterday in battle but only ended up lancing me twice, then had the nerve to say "sorry" afterwards. What a baddie, can't do anything without that bastard sword.
Lol... and how do you think you know my mindset when it comes to this game? Right.. you don't know shit other than the fact I find 2h to be a very easy class. I don't call out anything that kills me bullshit other than 2h, because it is. Deal with it. I don't ask how can I counter this becauseYou use chat and you're part of a small game community, it's fairly easy to get an idea about people's mindsets. Everything about your post makes me cringe. Not that I don't like voester or think he is talented, but putting him on the same level as both San and bigsandwich shows you have no right gauging people's "skill". Second, there is a clear distinction between skill in a deul and skill in battle. I am of the personal opinion that Cyranule was a better 1her than 2h, but you haven't been around long enough to remember those days, doubtful you'd even remember ManOfWar if I used him to draw an analogy.I have given up on tryingthere is currently no counter for a weapon that can swing faster than me after I successfully block. The only counter is block forever until hours pass and the attacker just leaves. That is not how a game should be played, and that is how you know some shit is broken.
Do you remember when he went archer? Loooool... just further proof he can only play 2h/cav.
I am not using two of the best duelists as an example.. thats the point. They are both average players who are only decent since they abuse the same game mechanic over and over. San, bigsandwich and voe are skilled players... kaoklai is a 'good' 2hander or mediocre 1hander who seemingly has 1 attack direction nowadays.
Seconded. He tried helping me with an xbower yesterday in battle but only ended up lancing me twice, then had the nerve to say "sorry" afterwards. What a baddie, can't do anything without that bastard sword.
You use chat and you're part of a small game community, it's fairly easy to get an idea about people's mindsets. Everything about your post makes me cringe. Not that I don't like voester or think he is talented, but putting him on the same level as both San and bigsandwich shows you have no right gauging people's "skill". Second, there is a clear distinction between skill in a deul and skill in battle. I am of the personal opinion that Cyranule was a better 1her than 2h, but you haven't been around long enough to remember those days, doubtful you'd even remember ManOfWar if I used him to draw an analogy.
Most importantly though, is my response to the emboldened statements. The best I can do here, considering previous posts in this thread, is to pull out my "Item (Un)Balancer" card and call bullshit on the whole argument. It is simply false, you're wrong and you need to admit that to yourself. Once you admit that, you can then take-up the only reasonable argument, and argue that it is "too difficult" to counter. People don't take extreme arguments seriously, especially when you don't have any supporting evidence.
I didn't throw voester into that collective, Sandersson did. I would agree he is a far better teamplayer in battle than a duelist.What the hell is an "attack activation window"(the ready anim?) I can't recall ever hearing that phrase used, and I'm quite certain it's something you (or maybe your faction) made up.
You are the item "balancer" and yet you don't see how weapons that have a longer attack activation window, hit earlier in the animation, have faster turn speed, and overall higher speed base stats aren't OP in ANY way? Not to mention the other advantages the animations give like the lolstab, easy hilstslashing, etc. Time to retire pal, before you completely kill this mod.
What the hell is an "attack activation window"(the ready anim?) I can't recall ever hearing that phrase used, and I'm quite certain it's something you (or maybe your faction) made up.
What allows you to "hit earlier in the animation" is your PS (for damage), wpf (again for damage only), speed bonus (for damage), weapon damage, and your opponents armor value; magic doesn't play any part in this. Every class can "lolstab" now, just open your eyes when you read the forums, there's more than enough QQ going on about thrusts.
This. Off the top of my head I believe the 2h right swing enters the sweet spot at about 39% progression through the release animation and the left swing enters at about 44%. Poles are still slower, but only very, slightly.
There's no single thing that makes the 2h thrust better than the others, it's a combination of several factors.
Right now two-handers require 53.33 % of their (edit: Overhead) release animation's progression to reach a spot capable of hitting a person in front of you. The disgusting thing, is that the polearm animation takes nearly 20% longer than that, and that's assuming two weapons of identical speeds.
You can't deny that a 2hander can hit for a longer period of time than other weapons. I will be behind a 2hander who sideswings, get clipped by the end of his weapon as the swing has essentially stopped (which would be a glancing blow with any other type) and receive full damage.Oh, did you also just come back from a break as well? A few months ago I altered the animations so that isn't the case anymore. You might die .1 % of the time in a duel due to the two-handed animation reaching its sweetspot a full 1% faster than you. Just two days ago I took another look at thrusts, what I found, is that the 2h thrust is now the least optimized out of all of them. Of course, I think that makes balance better rather than worse since they have the best range and are conveniently head level.
Don't go bullshitting now, you admitted yourself that 2handers hit earlier in their swings than other weapon types. For fucks sake, have some consistency before calling others bullshitters.
Here is some "proof" that you yourself have given in the past.
Tydeus stop arguing in Chamber of Tears and buff Heavy Lance by 1 damage already. Then give it a secondary throwing mode.Never!
Oh, did you also just come back from a break as well? A few months ago I altered the animations so that isn't the case anymore. You might die .1 % of the time in a duel due to the two-handed animation reaching its sweetspot a full 1% faster than you. Just two days ago I took another look at thrusts, what I found, is that the 2h thrust is now the least optimized out of all of them. Of course, I think that makes balance better rather than worse since they have the best range and are conveniently head level.
As far as being able to hit LATER in the animation... that's a new one that, because it's basically inconsequential for balance, has been ignored. I can take a look at the animation later today and say objectively whether or not that is the case. Even if it is though, it will be heavily dependent upon weapon speed in such a way as to only matter for the slowest of two-handers.
Real talk: Is there anyway to alter the hit box during stabs? People always stab past me, then drag the blade across my face which does a ton of damage for an attack that's only supposed to hit with the tip.
Lol... and how do you think you know my mindset when it comes to this game? Right.. you don't know shit other than the fact I find 2h to be a very easy class. I don't call out anything that kills me bullshit other than 2h, because it is. Deal with it. I don't ask how can I counter this becauseI have given up on tryingthere is currently no counter for a weapon that can swing faster than me after I successfully block. The only counter is block forever until hours pass and the attacker just leaves. That is not how a game should be played, and that is how you know some shit is broken.
As far as being able to hit LATER in the animation... that's a new one that, because it's basically inconsequential for balance, has been ignored. I can take a look at the animation later today and say objectively whether or not that is the case. Even if it is though, it will be heavily dependent upon weapon speed in such a way as to only matter for the slowest of two-handers.
Never!
I thought this was one of the main things that makes 2 hand stab quirky. Its not necessarily that you can stab late, its the damage they seem to do as well
Personally before this 1 hand stab business I was happy to leave 2 handers alone, but now I feel poles are losing what makes them unique. I don't think its a problem to have a-symmetrical balance with the way melee combat works, and that you tend to fight in teams anyway. 1 handers are just too versatile now, they do everything you could possibly want and do it well, with the utility of a shield. They might not have the reach of some poles, but everything with 4 directions got hit hard with the 1 hand buffs imo
I am not using two of the best duelists as an example.. thats the point. They are both average players who are only decent since they abuse the same game mechanic over and over. San, bigsandwich and voe are skilled players... kaoklai is a 'good' 2hander or mediocre 1hander who seemingly has 1 attack direction nowadays.
Cyranule couldn't stop getting valour almost every single round, so he could say "best NA archer"?
I always thought the best NA archer thing was a joke, and that Cy would get good KD's/valour as an archer from using his melee weapon lol
You're 100% right.
The "Best NA archer" thing started as joke as everyone can tell I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
All thrusts are confined to the same exact ruleset. This means you don't get an excessively long sweetspot(what you call an "active period") unless the weapon speed stat is excessively low. A 97 speed polearm and a 97 speed 2h for thrusts, reach the beginning and end of their sweetspot at the same EXACT time(yes time, time is what defines everything about thrust sweetspots).*Losts of shit I'm not going to bother replying to*(click to show/hide)
*Ignorance and such which happens to contradict reality*
I thought this was one of the main things that makes 2 hand stab quirky. Its not necessarily that you can stab late, its the damage they seem to do as wellThat was in reference to horizontal swings, not thrusts. If he was still talking about thrusts at that point, then I'm further dumbfounded.
When I said least optimized, what I really meant, was that unlike the polearm and 1h thrusts, the arm extension continues to progress the farthest after the sweetspot has ended. About 20% of the total distance the 2h tip travels, comes after the end of the 100% damage sweetspot, for the others it is closer to 10%. This is contrary to what you have been saying happens. You used the made up numbers .05 and .15 when the appropriate reflection of reality, with an equal amount of exaggeration, would be .15 and .05 respectably.
I always thought the best NA archer thing was a joke, and that Cy would get good KD's/valour as an archer from using his melee weapon lol
Cyranule is an average player? The fuck, man. If he's average then I'm far below average and you're a fucking single amputee with one eye.
"Mad cuz bad" has never fit as well as it does here. You make a ridiculous statement, and if you-re actually using a long axe (97 or 98 speed depending on loom level) and say you can't attack back, you might just have the worst footwork in the game, congratulations. Let me guess, when you die, you blame the game and not your own mistake? :)
At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth.There is a difference between some random punk making up numbers to prove his lobbyistic "point" and someone who got his numbers from actually working with the animations and who has his sweetspot info from cmp. You know, that cmp, who went somali all over game and even rewrote parts of it. For me it seems at least a lot more likely that the first guy is wrong and not the second.
Yeah... no. Why don't you actually see me play before passing judgement so swiftly?
"Pro cuz 2hander" has never fit as well as it does here.
Yeah no shit I made up numbers, I said "for example" for a reason. Not everyone has access to all the info. At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth. For all we know, that could very well be what you are doing since gameplay just doesn't back up what you are saying. And you can't go saying I'm some ignorant dumbass who only complains about what kills him when I only complain about 2handers... or rather, myself and 50% of the community complains about 2handers. The only reason the other 50% doesn't is because they are all the 2handers.
OK after all this info can you conclude any changes you would like to make to stabs? Do you like how you implemented 1 hand stab? Do you think 2 hand stab needs changes?We're still thinking about that. Urist just implemented a longer delay for thrusts that get blocked, so we need to wait and see how that plays out first. I suspect it won't really have too large of an impact, though to be safe, we don't want to do too much at once. I've wondered if maybe we should shorten the sweetspot duration from 30% to perhaps 20%(40-60%). With a shorter window, thrusts become slightly more difficult to use. You won't have as much time to wiggle therefore they will have to be used in a more straight forward manner. They would become much more predictable I'd imagine.
I understand that it's outside of the sweetspot. Is it possible to do enough damage to perform a non-glancing strike during any part of that phase if your PS / speed bonus / weapon damage is high enough?
If the sweetspot is more like a curve instead of a square wave, I believe that it's possible. Sometimes it appears as though I got hit on a late stab sometimes (it never does full damage like other people state, though).
Mostly looking at this. Edit: I assume the 2h stab's reach curve is more in line with the sweetspot.
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It's a steady decline instead of an abrupt drop.
A chess board is only 8x8 cells, yours seems to be at least 12 in width.
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You turn, Gmnotutoo. lol(click to show/hide)
A chess board is only 8x8 cells, yours seems to be at least 12 in width.
We're still thinking about that. Urist just implemented a longer delay for thrusts that get blocked, so we need to wait and see how that plays out first. I suspect it won't really have too large of an impact, though to be safe, we don't want to do too much at once. I've wondered if maybe we should shorten the sweetspot duration from 30% to perhaps 20%(40-60%). With a shorter window, thrusts become slightly more difficult to use. You won't have as much time to wiggle therefore they will have to be used in a more straight forward manner. They would become much more predictable I'd imagine.
To address the damage issues, I am leaning more towards simply lowering the thrust damage on some weapons, rather than further changing animations.
A chess board is only 8x8 cells, yours seems to be at least 12 in width.Go fix the animations instead of counting chess board cells.
Go fix the animations instead of counting chess board cells.Animations are fine. Swap your armor for something heavier, I'm sure that'll make you a better player.
Animations are fine. Swap your armor for something heavier, I'm sure that'll make you a better player.
Animations are fine. Swap your armor for something heavier, I'm sure that'll make you a better player.Pretty sure I've swapped the armor for a bow and leather a lot. I get plenty of kills with my current armor but why suggest I should get heavier armor?
Pretty sure I've swapped the armor for a bow and leather a lot. I get plenty of kills with my current armor but why suggest I should get heavier armor?Because you're Goretooth. Surely you're aware of what that means?
I agree. In fact, I made a suggestion here: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/serious-1h-stab-discussion/ (http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/serious-1h-stab-discussion/) where I suggest reverting back a lot of the artificial 1h stab buffs, since they made a lot more sense if one considered the swing and thrust equally important and I think we have reached that point. The stab seems fine now that its delay on blocks have been increased, but I believe some of the damages are too high. I think the side sword and scottish sword need to be looked at more closely since IMO they outperform the other 1h stab weapons in the long/short categories.
Because you're Goretooth. Surely you're aware of what that means?Long live DFC :twisted: oh wait ouch good fight though
We're still thinking about that. Urist just implemented a longer delay for thrusts that get blocked, so we need to wait and see how that plays out first. I suspect it won't really have too large of an impact, though to be safe, we don't want to do too much at once. I've wondered if maybe we should shorten the sweetspot duration from 30% to perhaps 20%(40-60%). With a shorter window, thrusts become slightly more difficult to use. You won't have as much time to wiggle therefore they will have to be used in a more straight forward manner. They would become much more predictable I'd imagine.
To address the damage issues, I am leaning more towards simply lowering the thrust damage on some weapons, rather than further changing animations. If I tweak animations again it'll likely be to the polearm thrust, where I better distinguish the arm extension part of the animation from the rest. One thing I really like about the current thrusts though, is that a 1her can quite easily contend with a 2her in the domain of thrusts, the reach disparity becomes much more manageable.
San, yes. Although to what extent I can't be entirely sure until cmp verifies whether the %damage modifies raw damage, or if it comes after the soak/reduce. If it comes with say, the speed bonus, in effect it will be more of an "abrupt drop".
I can't believe I just read this shit.
You mean me or the whole thread?