Increase the speed and damage on polearms.

[Tydeus]

(click to show/hide)

No, I've been here the whole time, unfortunately, and have yet to see any major improvement to polearms, save for the overhead. Even that is only really noticeable on the really long poles, generally the 2-directional ones. You even said yourself that the right-left or left-right (one of the sideswings) was a little slower for poles and yet left it untouched.

In addition, you acknowledge that there is still a 1% difference... you can't say that they are the same / balanced until there is a 0.% difference.

Optimization =/= effectiveness. Maybe the 2handed stab is OP because it is so poorly optimized. For example, if the animation actually thrusts for .05 seconds, but the active period lasts for .15, that is not optimized at all, yet it helps the 2handed stab. The old 1handed stab wasn't optimized... its effective duration was before it should have been. It was useable, but took some getting used to. Now that it is optimized, it is effective and works more logically. If 2handed stabs were optimized then maybe they couldn't stab point blank AND at the far end... just during the time the sword is actually extended*.


*note: 2handed stabs always seemed to be the "most realistic" as far as active time is concerned... t hey thrust forwards quickly, and are effective early in the animation... makes sense. The only problem with the animation/activation stage is in the end... where 2handers can spin around and catch you with the end even if they completely missed you at first. When you optimized the 1handed stab, it started behaving more like a 2handed stab, and nowadays is essentially the same exact thing just on a shorter scale. Now that 1handed stab 'is optimized' and behaves exactly like a 2handed, you say 2handed stabs AREN'T optimized...

*Losts of shit I'm not going to bother replying to*
*Ignorance and such which happens to contradict reality*

All thrusts are confined to the same exact ruleset. This means you don't get an excessively long sweetspot(what you call an "active period") unless the weapon speed stat is excessively low. A 97 speed polearm and a 97 speed 2h for thrusts, reach the beginning and end of their sweetspot at the same EXACT time(yes time, time is what defines everything about thrust sweetspots).

When I said least optimized, what I really meant, was that unlike the polearm and 1h thrusts, the arm extension continues to progress the farthest after the sweetspot has ended. About 20% of the total distance the 2h tip travels, comes after the end of the 100% damage sweetspot, for the others it is closer to 10%. This is contrary to what you have been saying happens. You used the made up numbers .05 and .15 when the appropriate reflection of reality, with an equal amount of exaggeration, would be .15 and .05 respectably.

I could go further, but at this point, I just can't justify carrying on with you. You clearly have read many of my posts on this subject, so how you can miss the major facts about sweetspots is beyond me.

I thought this was one of the main things that makes 2 hand stab quirky. Its not necessarily that you can stab late, its the damage they seem to do as well

That was in reference to horizontal swings, not thrusts. If he was still talking about thrusts at that point, then I'm further dumbfounded.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

The only silly thing I've noticed about 2h stabs is that the animation allows them to have a comparable range with longer polearms while having less of a nerf to turn rate from length, so it really exaggerates the gently slapping with the flat of the weapon effect.

I'd probably use the polearm type slashing weapons with weak stabs more often if I could disable the stab on them with (x) toggle, if only because I get a lot of lulz from pole nudging.

[Jona]

When I said least optimized, what I really meant, was that unlike the polearm and 1h thrusts, the arm extension continues to progress the farthest after the sweetspot has ended. About 20% of the total distance the 2h tip travels, comes after the end of the 100% damage sweetspot, for the others it is closer to 10%. This is contrary to what you have been saying happens. You used the made up numbers .05 and .15 when the appropriate reflection of reality, with an equal amount of exaggeration, would be .15 and .05 respectably.

Yeah no shit I made up numbers, I said "for example" for a reason. Not everyone has access to all the info. At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth. For all we know, that could very well be what you are doing since gameplay just doesn't back up what you are saying. And you can't go saying I'm some ignorant dumbass who only complains about what kills him when I only complain about 2handers... or rather, myself and 50% of the community complains about 2handers. The only reason the other 50% doesn't is because they are all the 2handers.

I always thought the best NA archer thing was a joke, and that Cy would get good KD's/valour as an archer from using his melee weapon lol

That is exactly my point. Anyone can throw a few points into archery, carry around a bow, and just use a 2hander whenever an enemy gets close. That really doesn't make you a good archer at all.

Cyranule is an average player? The fuck, man. If he's average then I'm far below average and you're a fucking single amputee with one eye.

I have never once claimed to be a good, average, below average, or even a competent player. Doesn't mean I can't judge others' skill. Look at sports commentators... they don't play but they are the ones who will rank / judge the athletes. And frankly, not a single 2hander is worthy of any recognition above average. If you are all so desperate to get that epeen larger than go play a real class and then you can start your braggin and whatnot.

"Mad cuz bad" has never fit as well as it does here. You make a ridiculous statement, and if you-re actually using a long axe (97 or 98 speed depending on loom level) and say you can't attack back, you might just have the worst footwork in the game, congratulations. Let me guess, when you die, you blame the game and not your own mistake?

Yeah... no. Why don't you actually see me play before passing judgement so swiftly? Oh right... you are some highfalutin eu sumbag who thinks he is the shit just because of his country of origin. "Pro cuz 2hander" has never fit as well as it does here.

[Paul]

At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth.

There is a difference between some random punk making up numbers to prove his lobbyistic "point" and someone who got his numbers from actually working with the animations and who has his sweetspot info from cmp. You know, that cmp, who went somali all over game and even rewrote parts of it. For me it seems at least a lot more likely that the first guy is wrong and not the second.

[Gurnisson]

Yeah... no. Why don't you actually see me play before passing judgement so swiftly?

I'm familiar with the weapon you're using, and you're basically admitting that you're based on what you're typing on this forum.

"Pro cuz 2hander" has never fit as well as it does here.

I've been 2h on my main twice since cRPG was new, and both times I was a hybrid, and I've also had one 2h alt. I've been polearmer maybe 10 gens or something, and I still am one on my main, and I've used long axe (and a lot of other polearms) and they're not bad compared to 2h weapons. Your massive QQ over the 2h class, which is not broken nowadays (old native stab was broken, no doubt), is getting old.

[Tydeus]

Sauce, if you're reading this thread, I'm blaming you for the recent turn of events in this thread.

Yeah no shit I made up numbers, I said "for example" for a reason. Not everyone has access to all the info. At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth. For all we know, that could very well be what you are doing since gameplay just doesn't back up what you are saying. And you can't go saying I'm some ignorant dumbass who only complains about what kills him when I only complain about 2handers... or rather, myself and 50% of the community complains about 2handers. The only reason the other 50% doesn't is because they are all the 2handers.

Jesus Christ, man. Fine, I'll give you screenshots, lets hope you can follow pictures better than words. 

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

This is frame 1 of the release animation, note the location of the tip of the sword, as well as what frame we're on(there are two ways, look at the green vertical line near the bottom of the screen or look at the "1" at the bottom toolbar).

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

This is the start of the sweetspot. Again, note the location of the tip as well as what frame we're on(6).

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

This is the end of the sweetspot. Once again, focus on where the tip is located as well as what frame we're on(11).

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Finally, we're at the very end of the release animation. Nothing new, you're looking at where the tip is located, as well as verifying that we are indeed at frame 17.

To conclude, the tip travels across 13 squares in this entire animation. The sweetspot starts in square 2 and ends in square 10. So with some simple math, 10/13 we can see that about 23% of the total distance the sword moves, comes after the end of the 100% damage sweetspot. As a reminder, Sweetspots for thrust are 35% progression to 65% progression. To see how far in the animation we have progressed, just do the same thing: current frame/total frames. Thus, your made up numbers (when we chose to ignore specifics and only focus on the point that is trying to be communicated) turns out to be completely wrong opposite of reality.

[Grumbs]

OK after all this info can you conclude any changes you would like to make to stabs? Do you like how you implemented 1 hand stab? Do you think 2 hand stab needs changes?

[Butan]

I dont know about the game details as much as Tydeus, so I'll just say my POV based on personal experience :

All weapons that can hit with full damage in the early part of the animation needs to be toned down.
Instant hit + instant great damage (potential one shot) = overpowerful

Some polearms/two handed weapons stabs and a lot of one handed weapons stab are in that category at the moment, and needs to be tweaked so that you can only :

- Hit early with low damage
- Hit late with high damage

Like most weapons should.

(click to show/hide)

I understand this means a lot more than what I talk about, and would need very very careful tweaking and that I dont know what the hell I'm talking about in those terms, but I think that should be the end goal of balanced weapons in the game.

[San]

I understand that it's outside of the sweetspot. Is it possible to do enough damage to perform a non-glancing strike during any part of that phase if your PS / speed bonus / weapon damage is high enough?

If the sweetspot is more like a curve instead of a square wave, I believe that it's possible. Sometimes it appears as though I got hit on a late stab sometimes (it never does full damage like other people state, though).

Mostly looking at this. Edit: I assume the 2h stab's reach curve is more in line with the sweetspot.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It's a steady decline instead of an abrupt drop.

[Gmnotutoo]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Your turn, Jona. lol

[Tydeus]

OK after all this info can you conclude any changes you would like to make to stabs? Do you like how you implemented 1 hand stab? Do you think 2 hand stab needs changes?

We're still thinking about that. Urist just implemented a longer delay for thrusts that get blocked, so we need to wait and see how that plays out first. I suspect it won't really have too large of an impact, though to be safe, we don't want to do too much at once. I've wondered if maybe we should shorten the sweetspot duration from 30% to perhaps 20%(40-60%). With a shorter window, thrusts become slightly more difficult to use. You won't have as much time to wiggle therefore they will have to be used in a more straight forward manner. They would become much more predictable I'd imagine.

To address the damage issues, I am leaning more towards simply lowering the thrust damage on some weapons, rather than further changing animations. If I tweak animations again it'll likely be to the polearm thrust, where I better distinguish the arm extension part of the animation from the rest. One thing I really like about the current thrusts though, is that a 1her can quite easily contend with a 2her in the domain of thrusts, the reach disparity becomes much more manageable.

San, yes. Although to what extent I can't be entirely sure until cmp verifies whether the %damage modifies raw damage, or if it comes after the soak/reduce. If it comes with say, the speed bonus, in effect it will be more of an "abrupt drop".

[Jona]

I understand that it's outside of the sweetspot. Is it possible to do enough damage to perform a non-glancing strike during any part of that phase if your PS / speed bonus / weapon damage is high enough?

If the sweetspot is more like a curve instead of a square wave, I believe that it's possible. Sometimes it appears as though I got hit on a late stab sometimes (it never does full damage like other people state, though).

Mostly looking at this. Edit: I assume the 2h stab's reach curve is more in line with the sweetspot.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


It's a steady decline instead of an abrupt drop.

Well the main problem here is that DEFINITELY occurs. Full damage or not, getting hit with a non-glancing strike when the stab hits far outside its sweetspot is utter bull when combined with the extra long post-sweetspot range modifier AND super helicoptering abilities. If 2hand stabs weren't so moveable it would be much more of a non-issue.


And gmno... outplayed.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


You turn, Gmnotutoo. lol

(click to show/hide)

Not shown: my queen, knight, and 2 bishops all in the bottom left.

[Malaclypse]

inb4 your pieces are ninja sleeper chess piece planted by Gmno

[Tydeus]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


You turn, Gmnotutoo. lol

(click to show/hide)

Not shown: my queen, knight, and 2 bishops all in the bottom left.

A chess board is only 8x8 cells, yours seems to be at least 12 in width.

[Jona]

A chess board is only 8x8 cells, yours seems to be at least 12 in width.

Couldn't remember if it was 12 x 12 or 8 x 8... knew it was 10 +/- 2.