Increase the speed and damage on polearms.

[Sandersson Jankins]

How to get +1 from kaoklai:

-Say 2handers are balanced.
-Say all stabs are perfectly balanced

How to get -1 from kaoklai:

-Point out obvious game breaking mechanics that he always abuses
-Say something that makes sense

I used to make posts that got downvoted by Kaoklai and I was moderately confused/upset by it.

Here I am, 6 months or more later, and I agree with nearly every downvote Kaoklai distributes.

My opinion is this: besides the 1h stab, which was overbuffed by some medium degree, all weapon classes are balanced to one another at a high skill level. Two-handed weapons are easier to be successful with at a low-medium skill level, before players learn advanced footwork, kicking, chambering, successful holding and feinting patterns, et cetera. Certain weapons may be slightly unbalanced within their categories, but as a whole balance is good between weapon categories. Stabbing with four directional polearms is very effective, especially with shorter polearms. I used a bec de corbin for quite a while last generation and the stab was fucking vital to accompany my right-swing spam.

Strength and agility are similar; strength dominant builds are easier to be very effective with at low-medium skill levels, but both are relatively balanced at high skill levels. The disparity between the two stats is quite a bit higher, though. You've got to be pretty fucking good to be as successful at agility builds as strength builds.

[Bobthehero]

Go home Sauce, you're drunk

[Jona]

I used to make posts that got downvoted by Kaoklai and I was moderately confused/upset by it.

Here I am, 6 months or more later, and I agree with nearly every downvote Kaoklai distributes.

My opinion is this: besides the 1h stab, which was overbuffed by some medium degree, all weapon classes are balanced to one another at a high skill level. Two-handed weapons are easier to be successful with at a low-medium skill level, before players learn advanced footwork, kicking, chambering, successful holding and feinting patterns, et cetera. Certain weapons may be slightly unbalanced within their categories, but as a whole balance is good between weapon categories. Stabbing with four directional polearms is very effective, especially with shorter polearms. I used a bec de corbin for quite a while last generation and the stab was fucking vital to accompany my right-swing spam.

Strength and agility are similar; strength dominant builds are easier to be very effective with at low-medium skill levels, but both are relatively balanced at high skill levels. The disparity between the two stats is quite a bit higher, though. You've got to be pretty fucking good to be as successful at agility builds as strength builds.

I still can't see how anyone thinks 2handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling cryanule or ser butts. ser butts is the infamous left-to-right-swinging-uber-feint-hits-before-animation-or-chance-to-block nerd, while cyranule is something like his protege... pulls off the maneuver but only occasionally. The fact that this literally game breaking mechanic exists ONLY for 2handers shows that they are OP/exploitable. Sure 2hand stabs are also pretty good, and for the most part better than the majority of polearm stabs, thats irrelevant and almost a non-issue if for no other reason than we non-2handers have just come to accept that. And it is good that you used the stab on a 4-directional to your advantage... I am not saying its not useful or anything... I do use mine occasionally as well just to break up the constant pseudo 3 directional attack pattern. But 4 directional polearm stabs are what I would call a balanced stab. They are effective when used correctly, and simply there as another attack direction. Compared to the OP 1hand 2hand, and 2-directional polearm stabs... they suck, simply because they are normal.

[San]

@Sandersson

Agility build is only a little bit harder, you just have to play smart and know how to move around the map well. With strength, you really don't need to think much at all since you just go with the flow of the team. I disagree with many that wear super light armor on agility builds nowadays, it's pretty much a death sentence since it's so dang risky. I think light armor is more effective on balanced builds.

I think if polearm stab received better bonus reach, it'll just make them even easier to facehug. Current stab is a pretty decent option against facehuggers for weapon lengths 150 and lower and it works well with kicks.


@Jona

You can chamber or follow their movements as you predict their next move. That's what makes Serbutts so much easier than Cyranule, because he does it almost every time with really light armor, making him extremely predictable and easy to kill on his single mistake. Also, I don't believe he feints that much.

The stabs are currently quite good, yes, but I believe the buffs to 1h right swing, polearm overhead, and polearm left swing still make things a little easier than pre-buff when you had fewer options.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I still can't see how anyone thinks 2handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling cryanule or ser butts. ser butts is the infamous left-to-right-swinging-uber-feint-hits-before-animation-or-chance-to-block nerd, while cyranule is something like his protege... pulls off the maneuver but only occasionally.

You can't use two of the very best duelists, two-handed or not as an example of why the weapon class is unbalanced.

Look, I can do that too!

I still can't see how anyone thinks 1handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling san or kaoklai.

I still can't see how anyone thinks polearms are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling bigsandwich or voester.
etc etc

[Cyranule]

I still can't see how anyone thinks 2handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling cryanule or ser butts. ser butts is the infamous left-to-right-swinging-uber-feint-hits-before-animation-or-chance-to-block nerd, while cyranule is something like his protege... pulls off the maneuver but only occasionally. The fact that this literally game breaking mechanic exists ONLY for 2handers shows that they are OP/exploitable.

It's not an exploit and very easy to counter.  Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit.  Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest). 
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side. 
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing. 

The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game.  If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"   

[Cheesecake]

It's not an exploit and very easy to counter.  Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit.  Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest). 
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side. 
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing. 

The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game.  If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"

oh shit you just got forum castor'd

[Matey]

It's not an exploit and very easy to counter.  Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit.  Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest). 
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side. 
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing. 

The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game.  If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"

shut up cy. you are bad at the game you are just a noob spammer who could never have any success as 1h, pole, archer, xbow or any kind of cav. the only thing you can do is left swing -> right swing -> left swing -> right swing indefinitely. Fucking bad.

[Kalam]

I agree with a lot of what Sandersson said, and I do believe everything is more or less balanced at the moment, melee wise.

Polearms do not need a buff. They could use some internal balancing, sure, but that's the case with every weapon type.

@Jona, Cyr, Slip & Matey
I'm surprised there are people who don't understand Castoring this late in the game, but that's the price we pay for less communication on game mechanics in the server.

Mostly, less communication on what we're doing in duels, really, and less duelists in general. In part because not everyone likes to share what techniques they use. Either they don't really think about it that much, or they don't really want to tell you how to beat them- for me, and some other players, I know more than half of every battle is understanding an individual's playstyle.

It might also be due to the fact that a lot of the people that discuss this sort of thing don't make a habit of announcing stuff on the forums a la Waltf4.

There's always e-peen involved, but man, does every other duelist seem to be there just to prove he's better than you? There's a lot less experimentation than I remember, as well as a lack of mutual discovery and willingness to teach new (or old and not widely known with the new playerbase) ways to use this old engine. Without Cyranule, Matey, Gmnotutoo, and Kaelaen breaking down the mechanics of some new technique or what they or someone else is doing to win, I doubt I'd have learned a lot of this stuff. EVERY AVERAGE PLAYER (like me) NEEDS THIS FEEDBACK AND ANALYSIS  in order to understand and fully appreciate the combat system.

It's easy to blame (he grinded more, he hacks, she's a 2h spammer) the system, but in this game (and I believe there are very few games that can say this) you've really never got an excuse except yourself.

[Gmnotutoo]

Everything seems really well balanced right now on the melee/infantry side, although I'd like the katana to be a little faster and less damage ( +1, -1). When I'm on the duel server I'm usually testing new techniques or training defensive blocking behavior against people with certain fighting styles (castoring, chambering, holding, etc). I'm a decent teacher and can help most anyone understand the basics of fighting in c-rpg, I'm always willing to lower my intensity against newer people to help them learn too.

Castoring is incredibly predictable by perceiving movement and you can cut them off in the middle of their second swing, granting you a free hit. You could also just s-key and block one of the strikes, or try chambering the second swing. It's very easy to time if you are willing to practice.

[Butan]

What the heck is castoring.

[San]

Just an NA term for hiltslashing, specifically the left swing-> right swing maneuver + movement instead of the general term 'hiltslash' that can be used in a few more cases.

[Bobthehero]

If you make long polearms unable to stab at point blank range, then sure, why not.

Otherwise, nope.

[Jona]

It's not an exploit and very easy to counter.  Just the most basic footwork will stop it while choosing the correct swing will score you a free hit.  Next time someone tries it watch what swings you're doing, the short swing or the long swing (swinging across your chest). 
Polearmers can do a left swing while moving right follow it into a stab on the right side. 
A one hander can approach you on the right side and drop two lefts on you if you don't follow the footwork and choose the correct swing. 

The problem I have with you Jona is your mindset when it comes to this game.  If you die? fuck them that was bullshit!!
Try just once asking "What did I do wrong? What was my mistake? How can I counter this?"

Lol... and how do you think you know my mindset when it comes to this game? Right.. you don't know shit other than the fact I find 2h to be a very easy class. I don't call out anything that kills me bullshit other than 2h, because it is. Deal with it. I don't ask how can I counter this because I have given up on trying there is currently no counter for a weapon that can swing faster than me after I successfully block. The only counter is block forever until hours pass and the attacker just leaves. That is not how a game should be played, and that is how you know some shit is broken.

shut up cy. you are bad at the game you are just a noob spammer who could never have any success as 1h, pole, archer, xbow or any kind of cav. the only thing you can do is left swing -> right swing -> left swing -> right swing indefinitely. Fucking bad.

Do you remember when he went archer? Loooool... just further proof he can only play 2h/cav.

You can't use two of the very best duelists, two-handed or not as an example of why the weapon class is unbalanced.

Look, I can do that too!

I still can't see how anyone thinks 1handers are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling san or kaoklai.

I still can't see how anyone thinks polearms are balanced, at any skill level. Go try dueling bigsandwich or voester.
etc etc

I am not using two of the best duelists as an example.. thats the point. They are both average players who are only decent since they abuse the same game mechanic over and over. San, bigsandwich and voe are skilled players... kaoklai is a 'good' 2hander or mediocre 1hander who seemingly has 1 attack direction nowadays.

[Tydeus]

shut up cy. you are bad at the game you are just a noob spammer who could never have any success as 1h, pole, archer, xbow or any kind of cav. the only thing you can do is left swing -> right swing -> left swing -> right swing indefinitely. Fucking bad.

Seconded. He tried helping me with an xbower yesterday in battle but only ended up lancing me twice, then had the nerve to say "sorry" afterwards. What a baddie, can't do anything without that bastard sword.

Lol... and how do you think you know my mindset when it comes to this game? Right.. you don't know shit other than the fact I find 2h to be a very easy class. I don't call out anything that kills me bullshit other than 2h, because it is. Deal with it. I don't ask how can I counter this because I have given up on trying there is currently no counter for a weapon that can swing faster than me after I successfully block. The only counter is block forever until hours pass and the attacker just leaves. That is not how a game should be played, and that is how you know some shit is broken.


Do you remember when he went archer? Loooool... just further proof he can only play 2h/cav.

I am not using two of the best duelists as an example.. thats the point. They are both average players who are only decent since they abuse the same game mechanic over and over. San, bigsandwich and voe are skilled players... kaoklai is a 'good' 2hander or mediocre 1hander who seemingly has 1 attack direction nowadays.

You use chat and you're part of a small game community, it's fairly easy to get an idea about people's mindsets. Everything about your post makes me cringe. Not that I don't like voester or think he is talented, but putting him on the same level as both San and bigsandwich shows you have no right gauging people's "skill". Second, there is a clear distinction between skill in a deul and skill in battle. I am of the personal opinion that Cyranule was a better 1her than 2h, but you haven't been around long enough to remember those days, doubtful you'd even remember ManOfWar if I used him to draw an analogy.

Most importantly though, is my response to the emboldened statements. The best I can do here, considering previous posts in this thread, is to pull out my "Item (Un)Balancer" card and call bullshit on the whole argument. It is simply false, you're wrong and you need to admit that to yourself. Once you admit that, you can then take-up the only reasonable argument, and argue that it is "too difficult" to counter. People don't take extreme arguments seriously, especially when you don't have any supporting evidence.