Increase the speed and damage on polearms.

[Jona]

Seconded. He tried helping me with an xbower yesterday in battle but only ended up lancing me twice, then had the nerve to say "sorry" afterwards. What a baddie, can't do anything without that bastard sword.
You use chat and you're part of a small game community, it's fairly easy to get an idea about people's mindsets. Everything about your post makes me cringe. Not that I don't like voester or think he is talented, but putting him on the same level as both San and bigsandwich shows you have no right gauging people's "skill". Second, there is a clear distinction between skill in a deul and skill in battle. I am of the personal opinion that Cyranule was a better 1her than 2h, but you haven't been around long enough to remember those days, doubtful you'd even remember ManOfWar if I used him to draw an analogy.

Most importantly though, is my response to the emboldened statements. The best I can do here, considering previous posts in this thread, is to pull out my "Item (Un)Balancer" card and call bullshit on the whole argument. It is simply false, you're wrong and you need to admit that to yourself. Once you admit that, you can then take-up the only reasonable argument, and argue that it is "too difficult" to counter. People don't take extreme arguments seriously, especially when you don't have any supporting evidence.

I didn't throw voester into that collective, Sandersson did. I would agree he is a far better teamplayer in battle than a duelist.

You are the item "balancer" and yet you don't see how weapons that have a longer attack activation window, hit earlier in the animation, have faster turn speed, and overall higher speed base stats aren't OP in ANY way? Not to mention the other advantages the animations give like the lolstab, easy hilstslashing, etc. Time to retire pal, before you completely kill this mod.

[Tydeus]

I didn't throw voester into that collective, Sandersson did. I would agree he is a far better teamplayer in battle than a duelist.

You are the item "balancer" and yet you don't see how weapons that have a longer attack activation window, hit earlier in the animation, have faster turn speed, and overall higher speed base stats aren't OP in ANY way? Not to mention the other advantages the animations give like the lolstab, easy hilstslashing, etc. Time to retire pal, before you completely kill this mod.

What the hell is an "attack activation window"(the ready anim?) I can't recall ever hearing that phrase used, and I'm quite certain it's something you (or maybe your faction) made up.

What allows you to "hit earlier in the animation" is your PS (for damage), wpf (again for damage only), speed bonus (for damage), weapon damage, and your opponents armor value; magic doesn't play any part in this. Every class can "lolstab" now, just open your eyes when you read the forums, there's more than enough QQ going on about thrusts.

Edit: Speed can allow you to reach earlier points in the animation sooner than slower weapons, but fast weapons sacrifice other stats for that advantage. Second, the difference between a few points in speed is already small, but when you're talking about the time disparity of any given weapon to another at 30% through the swing, you're talking about the difference in time being reduced to only 30%, this amounts to trivial speed differences.

[MURDERTRON]

Tydeus stop arguing in Chamber of Tears and buff Heavy Lance by 1 damage already.  Then give it a secondary throwing mode.

[Jona]

What the hell is an "attack activation window"(the ready anim?) I can't recall ever hearing that phrase used, and I'm quite certain it's something you (or maybe your faction) made up.

What allows you to "hit earlier in the animation" is your PS (for damage), wpf (again for damage only), speed bonus (for damage), weapon damage, and your opponents armor value; magic doesn't play any part in this. Every class can "lolstab" now, just open your eyes when you read the forums, there's more than enough QQ going on about thrusts.

You can't deny that a 2hander can hit for a longer period of time than other weapons. I will be behind a 2hander who sideswings, get clipped by the end of his weapon as the swing has essentially stopped (which would be a glancing blow with any other type) and receive full damage.

Don't go bullshitting now, you admitted yourself that 2handers hit earlier in their swings than other weapon types. For fucks sake, have some consistency before calling others bullshitters.

Here is some "proof" that you yourself have given in the past.

This. Off the top of my head I believe the 2h right swing enters the sweet spot at about 39% progression through the release animation and the left swing enters at about 44%. Poles are still slower, but only very, slightly.

There's no single thing that makes the 2h thrust better than the others, it's a combination of several factors.

Right now two-handers require 53.33 % of their (edit: Overhead) release animation's progression to reach a spot capable of hitting a person in front of you. The disgusting thing, is that the polearm animation takes nearly 20% longer than that, and that's assuming two weapons of identical speeds.

[Tydeus]

You can't deny that a 2hander can hit for a longer period of time than other weapons. I will be behind a 2hander who sideswings, get clipped by the end of his weapon as the swing has essentially stopped (which would be a glancing blow with any other type) and receive full damage.

Don't go bullshitting now, you admitted yourself that 2handers hit earlier in their swings than other weapon types. For fucks sake, have some consistency before calling others bullshitters.

Here is some "proof" that you yourself have given in the past.

Oh, did you also just come back from a break as well? A few months ago I altered the animations so that isn't the case anymore. You might die .1 % of the time in a duel due to the two-handed animation reaching its sweetspot a full 1% faster than you. Just two days ago I took another look at thrusts, what I found, is that the 2h thrust is now the least optimized out of all of them. Of course, I think that makes balance better rather than worse since they have the best range and are conveniently head level.

As far as being able to hit LATER in the animation... that's a new one that, because it's basically inconsequential for balance, has been ignored. I can take a look at the animation later today and say objectively whether or not that is the case. Even if it is though, it will be heavily dependent upon weapon speed in such a way as to only matter for the slowest of two-handers.

Tydeus stop arguing in Chamber of Tears and buff Heavy Lance by 1 damage already.  Then give it a secondary throwing mode.

Never!
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[Jona]

Oh, did you also just come back from a break as well? A few months ago I altered the animations so that isn't the case anymore. You might die .1 % of the time in a duel due to the two-handed animation reaching its sweetspot a full 1% faster than you. Just two days ago I took another look at thrusts, what I found, is that the 2h thrust is now the least optimized out of all of them. Of course, I think that makes balance better rather than worse since they have the best range and are conveniently head level.

As far as being able to hit LATER in the animation... that's a new one that, because it's basically inconsequential for balance, has been ignored. I can take a look at the animation later today and say objectively whether or not that is the case. Even if it is though, it will be heavily dependent upon weapon speed in such a way as to only matter for the slowest of two-handers.

No, I've been here the whole time, unfortunately, and have yet to see any major improvement to polearms, save for the overhead. Even that is only really noticeable on the really long poles, generally the 2-directional ones. You even said yourself that the right-left or left-right (one of the sideswings) was a little slower for poles and yet left it untouched.

In addition, you acknowledge that there is still a 1% difference... you can't say that they are the same / balanced until there is a 0.% difference.

Optimization =/= effectiveness. Maybe the 2handed stab is OP because it is so poorly optimized. For example, if the animation actually thrusts for .05 seconds, but the active period lasts for .15, that is not optimized at all, yet it helps the 2handed stab. The old 1handed stab wasn't optimized... its effective duration was before it should have been. It was useable, but took some getting used to. Now that it is optimized, it is effective and works more logically. If 2handed stabs were optimized then maybe they couldn't stab point blank AND at the far end... just during the time the sword is actually extended*.


*note: 2handed stabs always seemed to be the "most realistic" as far as active time is concerned... they thrust forwards quickly, and are effective early in the animation... makes sense. The only problem with the animation/activation stage is in the end... where 2handers can spin around and catch you with the end even if they completely missed you at first. When you optimized the 1handed stab, it started behaving more like a 2handed stab, and nowadays is essentially the same exact thing just on a shorter scale. Now that 1handed stab 'is optimized' and behaves exactly like a 2handed, you say 2handed stabs AREN'T optimized...

[MURDERTRON]

Real talk: Is there anyway to alter the hit box during stabs?  People always stab past me, then drag the blade across my face which does a ton of damage for an attack that's only supposed to hit with the tip.

[Jona]

Real talk: Is there anyway to alter the hit box during stabs?  People always stab past me, then drag the blade across my face which does a ton of damage for an attack that's only supposed to hit with the tip.

It is not necessarily the hitbox to blame, its the fact that 2hand stabs stay active for a long time and have high turn speed, so they can almost 180 stab.

Stab -> fully extended arms -> toss mouse across room -> stab moves super fast in that direction -> hits for full (pierce) damage.

This is what I meant by optimizing 2hand stab to better match the animation... it stays active too long. Once the thrust stops it should deal no damage. Holding your sword way out in front of you would be useless. Not to mention incredibly stupid and with some swords impossible. Why can't we just cut off the last few frames of 2h stab and add a miniature cooldown timer for how long it would have lasted just so you can't stab faster due to a shorter animation / active time? Or what about just making it not active during that duration? You don't stab and hold your sword out there... you retract as soon as possible so you can strike again and aren't caught off balance.

[Gurnisson]

Lol... and how do you think you know my mindset when it comes to this game? Right.. you don't know shit other than the fact I find 2h to be a very easy class. I don't call out anything that kills me bullshit other than 2h, because it is. Deal with it. I don't ask how can I counter this because I have given up on trying there is currently no counter for a weapon that can swing faster than me after I successfully block. The only counter is block forever until hours pass and the attacker just leaves. That is not how a game should be played, and that is how you know some shit is broken.

"Mad cuz bad" has never fit as well as it does here. You make a ridiculous statement, and if you-re actually using a long axe (97 or 98 speed depending on loom level) and say you can't attack back, you might just have the worst footwork in the game, congratulations. Let me guess, when you die, you blame the game and not your own mistake?

[Grumbs]

As far as being able to hit LATER in the animation... that's a new one that, because it's basically inconsequential for balance, has been ignored. I can take a look at the animation later today and say objectively whether or not that is the case. Even if it is though, it will be heavily dependent upon weapon speed in such a way as to only matter for the slowest of two-handers.
Never!

I thought this was one of the main things that makes 2 hand stab quirky. Its not necessarily that you can stab late, its the damage they seem to do as well

Personally before this 1 hand stab business I was happy to leave 2 handers alone, but now I feel poles are losing what makes them unique. I don't think its a problem to have a-symmetrical balance with the way melee combat works, and that you tend to fight in teams anyway. 1 handers are just too versatile now, they do everything you could possibly want and do it well, with the utility of a shield. They might not have the reach of some poles, but everything with 4 directions got hit hard with the 1 hand buffs imo

[CrazyCracka420]

I thought this was one of the main things that makes 2 hand stab quirky. Its not necessarily that you can stab late, its the damage they seem to do as well

+1

Personally before this 1 hand stab business I was happy to leave 2 handers alone, but now I feel poles are losing what makes them unique. I don't think its a problem to have a-symmetrical balance with the way melee combat works, and that you tend to fight in teams anyway. 1 handers are just too versatile now, they do everything you could possibly want and do it well, with the utility of a shield. They might not have the reach of some poles, but everything with 4 directions got hit hard with the 1 hand buffs imo

-1

[Sandersson Jankins]

I am not using two of the best duelists as an example.. thats the point. They are both average players who are only decent since they abuse the same game mechanic over and over. San, bigsandwich and voe are skilled players... kaoklai is a 'good' 2hander or mediocre 1hander who seemingly has 1 attack direction nowadays.

You can't be serious. No, really. You can't, can you?

Cyranule is an average player? The fuck, man. If he's average then I'm far below average and you're a fucking single amputee with one eye. Most recently when Cyranule went archer, he didn't seem to do so well for whatever reason. I chalked it up to him not trying. I'm guessing you don't remember several months ago when many of the best players (shinock, cyranule, rohy) went archer (not to mention some already-existing archers like Robin Longstride) and Cyranule couldn't stop getting valour almost every single round, so he could say "best NA archer"?

[Malaclypse]

Cyranule couldn't stop getting valour almost every single round, so he could say "best NA archer"?

I always thought the best NA archer thing was a joke, and that Cy would get good KD's/valour as an archer from using his melee weapon lol

[Cyranule]

I always thought the best NA archer thing was a joke, and that Cy would get good KD's/valour as an archer from using his melee weapon lol

You're 100% right. 
The "Best NA archer" thing started as joke as everyone can tell I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. 

[Rhaelys]

You're 100% right. 
The "Best NA archer" thing started as joke as everyone can tell I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Though you can sure castor swing the fuck out of the broad side of a barn fuck u cy