Also the bows and crossbows which you would think are friendly to new players are almost useless without having them ranked up.
Just remove looms. What is the point if having them if everyone has them, except the new players who are at a huge skill and level disadvantage anyway. The only thing looms do is restrict us all in what we can play, if I want to play a Spanish buckler man today and a Viking axeman tomorrow. I can't because I need to trade for a few weeks to get the stuff.
Free freedom, remove looms.
I think it's the worst with ranged - a non loomed archer will have a much harder time than a loomed archer, especially against someone with loomed body armor. I just laugh at how many arrows it takes for my 15/24 loomless HA to kill something :Dindeed, low lvl ranged and horse ranged without looms are quite useless. especially with archery
I decided to start over with a new main after 1000 hours of play and now have no MW items and the difference is staggering.
yea looming horse is a must really. only other thing i ever thought to be important is arrow's.That is because you are a GK and you have never fought in melee.
Calling new member a beggar... :evil:
Just remove looms. What is the point if having them if everyone has them, except the new players who are at a huge skill and level disadvantage anyway. The only thing looms do is restrict us all in what we can play, if I want to play a Spanish buckler man today and a Viking axeman tomorrow. I can't because I need to trade for a few weeks to get the stuff.
Free freedom, remove looms.
In all honesty. Looms just make it easier for people to make a build that they wouldn't normally do with that item and still have some fun out of it. Example: Using a Sword with a str build until the sword was loomed. Then you could put less into Str and still do similar damage because of the loom.
I like looms mostly because it opens up a whole new way of playing sometimes. As well as a whole new way to mess with people, Elder Club is my goal.
Heirlooms instill a sense of personalization that is a source of pride for most players. If you feel like they are just a meaningless grind, you probably loomed a Kuyak and a Longsword. For instance, there are certain weapons that are rare enough that I am excited when I find one on the battlefield. And I can usually guess the owner due to this rarity.
I think Final Boss' texture pack has a lot to do with the fun of finding rare heirlooms on the ground; his textures for many weapons look amazing, and I'll equip them just to admire.
Just remove looms. What is the point if having them if everyone has them, except the new players who are at a huge skill and level disadvantage anyway. The only thing looms do is restrict us all in what we can play, if I want to play a Spanish buckler man today and a Viking axeman tomorrow. I can't because I need to trade for a few weeks to get the stuff.
Free freedom, remove looms.
I'm against removing looms, but they sure could use some tweaking. Such as inverting the net gain curve. Getting a +0 to +1 should be more important than a +2 to +3.
Just remove looms. What is the point if having them if everyone has them, except the new players who are at a huge skill and level disadvantage anyway. The only thing looms do is restrict us all in what we can play, if I want to play a Spanish buckler man today and a Viking axeman tomorrow. I can't because I need to trade for a few weeks to get the stuff.
Free freedom, remove looms.
You people are funny, all spitting on looms and stuff in all a big circlejerk about how looms are uncool like hippies protesting against massive corporations. Truth is, looms keeps me going in this game. The only reason why people grind is for looms, not counting on the fact of course getting to a higher level! Because lets face it, why would you retire if there would be no looms?
I stopped retiring some time ago thinking i was done, too tired of grinding, i had the looms that i wanted...and then i found out some new cool item and/or some cool guy using it , try out the masterwork, and there i went again. retired! And oh boy how i hated the peasent years, i remembered why i didnt want to retire anymore! And trust me, i wouldnt do it again if there were no looms! So why retire then, if you want to change build, you have respec! or just grow to have a high level build?
And you can try to lie about it, refuse to admit it, but if most of you people are still here, its because of the grind. Do any of you people play world of tanks? wargaming (the people that make that game) have understood very well that griding gets the players hooked to the game, they grind to the biggest tankn what does wargaming do? realse new big shiny tanks, and there goes the grind again!
And this happens here. You can all pat yourself on the back saying : "yea dude, looms are so uncool ban em", but there is a very silent majority out there that thinks : "whatever shut up", and i didnt really feel like breaking your circle of back rubbing but here i am writing a wall of text.
And truth is, i dont know why i am doing so, because you all know that the devs wont do it, but still comes up regurlarly a thread about how we should removes looms, with the same people saying the same stuff "looms uncool man" over again like if it was the first time it was ever mentionned.
Guys, even the devs have given up on this thread....let it die
Looms make my character, my specialisation, my class. You are so against looms but...you can't change class because you have looms? joke? Some of you have maybe seen me playing, sometimes i use my loomed gears, but sometimes i have javelins, a poleaxe, new pieces of armors, a shield and that stuff is not loomed and i still do good! Looms help but are not that gamebreaking. they are a little extra edge. they are a motivation
The only thing that they do break a bit is for archery and crossbow : you get double ranged damage. In return those classes get nerfed because of the high hitting loomed archers just kicking in the dirt the no loomed archers (that is another problem)
and have you seen how much the game has progressed, we havem mrkets, auctions, booths, we have a fucking economy and that gets people going!
So really if you so against looms, i think we should ban high levels! actually we should just all be level 31!!!11!!! it would only be fair! all those level 35 have better builds then me making them more effective on the battlefield! QQ
Welcome to Communist-rpg
Ps :go play age of chivalry...
Ps 2 : I'll talk to schmako to have you banned from the armory Teeth :mrgreen:
A quick calculation tells me that to retire 9 times, which gets you 3 masterworks,
Part of the cRPG content is also competitivity, which looms obstruct. To be able to experience the full content of cRPG, you need to be able to compete, which requires you to have looms. Therefore the grind in cRPG for looms is the same to me as having to chase 'new' gear and levels in MMORPG's.
Of course not having looms compared to everyone else having looms reduces the fun you have while playing. Surely needing 4-5 hits to kill everyone while they need 2-3 for you gets on your nerves at some point, don't you think?
Looms are not customization, they are simply bonuses. I would be fine if looms provided trade offs, if you like to have a fast spear with lower damage, go ahead. It is the absolute advantage they offer you because you are willing to grind, which is stupid game design in my opinion.
Put yourself in the shoes of a new player. You come into a game where you have a huge skill disadvantage with an enormous learning curve, on top of that there is also people who have a level 33-35 character and full sets of looms. A quick calculation tells me that to retire 9 times, which gets you 3 masterworks, and to get to level 33, you need to play about 850 hours. 850 hours to get at a somewhat level playing field with the established playerbase. Tell me with a straight face that is not stupid and disheartening?
Ps :go play age of chivalry...
If you guys really want it so everyone is the same, then just go play Native. DuhBecause Native with looms and levels is the same thing as cRPG, yeah, good point.
Crpg community surprises me in how silly they are sometimes.
Because Native with looms and levels is the same thing as cRPG, yeah, good point.
What would happen if looms were removed:Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...
- Nobody would retire anymore, making it harder for new players, not easier
Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...
If the same person had been retiring, he would be clad in a full +3 armor/weapon set, that gives him
*significant armor bonus, making it much harder for others to even hurt him and then he takes less damage anyway
*significant damage bonus, making it easier (depending on weapon) to hurt others
The armor part is really the most important, its why almost everyone is a bloody tank nowadays, high str builds rule and newbies complain about dying in one hit, whilst it takes them 5+ to kill others.
Because Native with looms and levels is the same thing as cRPG
good point.
Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...
If the same person had been retiring, he would be clad in a full +3 armor/weapon set, that gives him
*significant armor bonus, making it much harder for others to even hurt him and then he takes less damage anyway
*significant damage bonus, making it easier (depending on weapon) to hurt others
The armor part is really the most important, its why almost everyone is a bloody tank nowadays, high str builds rule and newbies complain about dying in one hit, whilst it takes them 5+ to kill others.
I'd rather be fully loomed out than at level 35 with no looms.
Renown whoreLol speak for yourself renown farmer :lol:. I was just trying to summarize this thread into a short video clip.
Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...
You all seem to underestimate the difference that 10 extra armour points do.
Who said its the same thing? You guys are complaining about looms being unbalanced for new players. If you want items to be the same then just play Native.
The difference between lvl 30 and lvl 35 with 6 looms can be significant. So what? Isn't this the point of playing cRPG?
Looms only make a small difference unless you really badly suck at the game, then it's your own skills that need improving and not looms being removed. Considering I'm not by any means a great player and I went 14-0 the other day with shitty light armour and just a MW bamboo spear ( which is still only 28 pierce damage ), upkeep was about 300 gold max, it shows it just isn't about having the highest armour ratings and the most stats. Player skills exceed all of these things.With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.
You all seem to underestimate the difference that 10 extra armour points do.
With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.
Deep fucking sigh.(click to show/hide)
I think you missed his point completely.
Erm since when did I say anything about ITEM BALANCE? that's a different matter and completely irrelevant to what either you or I said, what I said was basically "skill always trumps looms" which it does, so why don't you climb off of your horse and stop being a fucking queen about it.Right, I will explain myself thoroughly.
I think Teeth missed my point completely.
You don't seem to understand. We want the items to be the same (no looms) and the levels but the combat mechanics and items amount and character customization and whatnot from the current c-rpg. This isn't there in Native, so we don't play it.
With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.
Deep fucking sigh.(click to show/hide)
Right, I will explain myself thoroughly.
The relevancy is that I project your argument on something else to show to you that it is flawed, because you do not seem to see it in the case of looms. You say that looms do not matter because skill decides who wins in the end. 'Skill always trumps looms'. Now I apply this reasoning to item balance. I illustrated my point by saying that one item being hugely OP, the hypothethical example of a Danish with 48c and a 100 speed, would not matter, because skill would still decide. 'Skill always trumps looms' in the exact same way as 'Skill always trumps stat differences'.
Yet I hope you can agree with me that balance is important, even when skill is the deciding factor, and I hope you can apply the same thought to looms. That the strength of looms does in fact matter, regardless of skill being the deciding factor.
Mail mittens go from +3 to +8 I believe, over 100% bonus.That is another good point, the absolute increases from looms means that the relative bonuses differ. Which means that pre-loom balance is not the same as loomed balance. Which is also quite a flaw in the system. A 45 cut weapon going to 48 cut is hardly as significant as a 23p weapon going to 26p.
Common strategy to get anything done is advocating the extreme and accepting compromise :P(click to show/hide)
A MW Ashwood pike (33p) will still do 10% more damage than a non loomed one. Which means that even after all the random factors, I will have 10% more damage output overall, even more with the way armor works. For free, no penalties. For balance overall is the only thing that matters, sure you can one shot someone with a spiked mace and need 3 hits with a flamberge, this is all completely irrelevant. Then there is the 1 speed, and the 5/10/10 head/body/leg armour you can also gain. Which reduces damage received by more than 10%, a whole lot more. 10 body armour, that is the difference between wearing Archon's Armor and Black Armor, without any of the wpf and movement penalties.(click to show/hide)
To illustrate the effect of 10 body armor difference, using the damage calculator. 7 PS, 120 wpf, 40c. Against 50 body armor it does an average of 15.5 damage, against 60 body armor it does 9.5 damage on average. That is a 39% damage reduction, just because you played the game longer than the other guy. Looms are simply a huge deal.
At least the devs realise that the current situation is not desirable, because they intend to make any mechanics like looms based on tradeoffs in le secret project.
Not saying you are wrong, but isnt the calculator based off estimations from a year ago?
I never trusted the damage calculator because it doesn't factor in weight of the weapon. Which (I think) is a big deal when it comes to damage.
I know what you guys are saying.
I don't want to start a war but why exactly then you suggest that we go play native?
Although this post was merely just about items, and that's what I spoke about. I did not put levels into consideration.
It bothers me personally that I can't switch gear around all the time without having a notable effectivity drop and I think new players deserve some kind of catch-up system or starting bonus.
Sorry necro, I really don't get what it's got to with levels and items, whatever.
I am actually pointing out what happens. Very nice of you to just outrule arguments with the irrelevant (or you are stupid) tag just for your convenience. while, even if I don't agree, I see that there can be problems with looms, you just go on theorycrafting and using stats like a politician (and outdated calculators apparently?).I am not outruling an argument as irrelevant to my convenience. You have to understand that you cannot balance on the basis of individual cases. You simply have to balance by average damage. Single cases are not representative of the whole. You might be stating what you notice, but for balance you have to use facts and the stats we have combined with formulas are the only facts. If you throw a 1000 MW javelin's and a 1000 normal javelins at the same target, you will get an average damage value which will show higher damage for the MW javelin. And the damage difference will almost equal the extra damage it should have according to the formula.
For the gloves, its probably the fact that they forgot to nerf those with the rest...
Just an idea: why not create a special armoury for newbie players (for example main chars, 1-3 Gen, independent of level), just like those used by the clans?
Each player with multiple looms can throw in not used heirloom items. Each player whose items were borrowed let's say for 300 days in total (put 3 items, each borrowed for 100 days by different players..), gains a loompoint/special gear/gold/etc - well, exact rules can be found out later...
Problem solved, new players can have heirlooms (many heirlooms, can try out many items and choose the best ones for themselves), and no heirloom is to be removed...
I am not outruling an argument as irrelevant to my convenience. You have to understand that you cannot balance on the basis of individual cases. You simply have to balance by average damage. Single cases are not representative of the whole. You might be stating what you notice, but for balance you have to use facts and the stats we have combined with formulas are the only facts. If you throw a 1000 MW javelin's and a 1000 normal javelins at the same target, you will get an average damage value which will show higher damage for the MW javelin. And the damage difference will almost equal the extra damage it should have according to the formula.
This game is borky sometimes, but not that borky. That I used outdated calculators is unfortunate, thanks for the info, but the difference between Archon's Armor and Black Armor makes my point hold I hope. Theorycrafting sure beats pumping out arguments based on gut feeling.
Maybe just add a section in market to "Rent" looms for a certain amount a day. I like the idea though so I'll give you credit for that. Not saying this would "Balance" things but I like the idea nonetheless.thx
This is the important part for me. I don't care that much if looms take advantage over skill or not and it's honestly a silly discussion. But that the heirlooms I posses dictate my choice of items is a shame. Sure I can play with other items but if I make a 1h alt with 6PS and have one 1h loom why would I use another weapon? And even if it's true that a beginner isn't helpless because of the lack of loomed items it goes on top of that. This is not an easy game to learn why additionally give beginners small disadvantages (looms, lower level, no gen bonus)?
Sure I can play with other items but if I make a 1h alt with 6PS and have one 1h loom why would I use another weapon?
Well c-rpg is not all about skill, but also about having good items and character build, that's where the "rpg" part is.
Would a revised reward system satisfy you loom haters?
i.e. if a lvl 25 with no looms kills a lvl 35 that's fully loomed, they get a massive gold/xp reward, but the high level/loom guy gets little or no reward for killing the newbie?
This would retain the progression/customization aspect of the game while rewarding players that "punch above their weight class". Would also make it hard for high level guys to pay upkeep on expensive stuff, because they wouldn't have as many opportunities for large payouts. It would also encourage top players to "slum it" on unloomed low-level chars, but this just makes it easier on the newbies also, so I don't see that as a problem.
Code like that is a bit complicated and would slow down the servers immensely. (I would think, I am not certain though.)
It's not like the rewards need to be calculated in real time; make it like upkeep where it's just assessed at the end of the round. The computational overhead of a few calculations every 5 minutes or so would be miniscule.
Well c-rpg is not all about skill, but also about having good items and character build, that's where the "rpg" part is.
Since when Role Playing Game means making multicriteria optimization ?I've no idea what that is and im too lazy to google it, but anyway, RPG assumes people can have different armor and weapons quality which ofc will affect everything and ... meh, im too sleepy to write in english right now. :(
I've no idea what that is and im too lazy to google it, but anyway, RPG assumes people can have different armor and weapons quality which ofc will affect everything and ... meh, im too sleepy to write in english right now. :(
If you can't be assed to do that, then what do we care??
4. I don't like that arrogant attitude. Everybody who don't want to join a clan (at first) doesn't concern the rest or isn't part of the game or even the community? bullshit.
"Lone Wolves."
More like, no friends :)
tl;dr The future is bleak for new players if we bring the skill ceiling down and the floor up. Stop complaining.Removing the grind elements from the game does not affect the skill ceiling in any meaningful way.
Removing the grind elements from the game does not affect the skill ceiling in any meaningful way.
I don't like that arrogant attitude. Everybody who don't want to join a clan (at first) doesn't concern the rest or isn't part of the game or even the community? bullshit.
To paraphrase, he's being ironic.
"Since when was a role playing game about min-maxing"
Implying that his take on this is : As far as "rpg" goes in cRPG, it's not really cRPG. But more like cMINMAX.
What I really wanted to say is that extremely few videogames are true RPGs. A game in which you play a role (whatever that may be) like an actor is complicated to create with a computer system because it is unable to understand the semantics of what you are doing. By that definition, only tabletop RPGs can apply. And even them are not all valid (D&D 4 :rolleyes:).
Free freedom, remove looms.
Where you are looking for is http://www.topmudsites.com/ (http://www.topmudsites.com/)
I'm not really into those things, I just wanted to rant about the abusive use of "RPG" when all it really means is "you gain levels".
I have nothing against grinding honestly, but the use of the term RPG to designate just that isn't right. I agree cRPG is a RPG-ish because it lets you create your own character with his equipment, but not because there are levels.
WoW the mother of all MMORPGs? Wut? It may be the star, the most popular MMORPG, but the mother? No.
But you are right, RPG applied to computer games is only very loosely defined. Some think it's already fulfilled when there is some form of character progress (Bioshock, Deus Ex), while others require the player to be able to create his own character (not play a pre-defined role like in the previously mentioned games).
Levels are usually what is contained in the common definition of the term RPG. Usually, if something does not provide the player with some kind of leveling system, it isn't considered an RPG, rather an adventure. The question if someone is playing a "character" in its initial meaning, with acting, making story-based decisions and so on is not considered in the common term RPG. In its initial meaning it is, but describing a computer game genre it definitely is not. In World of Warcraft you don't make any story based decisions which display the attitude of your character, and yet it is considered the mother of all MMORPGs and the grinding/leveling aspect of RPGs in general.
There is simply no other word to describe a game which revolves around leveling up a character.
WoW the mother of all MMORPGs? Wut? It may be the star, the most popular MMORPG, but the mother? No.
I know everybody will use the word like that but it doesn't make it the right way to use it, especially when there's no possible ambiguity about the meaning of "role playing game". With words such as "racism", you have huge debates going on because the word doesn't explain its meaning, the situation of RPG is much simpler.
This is nitpicking, but in Deus Ex your role isn't very tightly defined. You can make plenty of decisions that can build a detailed character.
No. You are JC Denton, a nanotechnologically enhanced human UNATCO agent. The role is tightly defined. You cannot play a different character.
WoW the mother of all MMORPGs? Wut? It may be the star, the most popular MMORPG, but the mother? No.It is the one game that most other MMORPGs that came after it have been copying more or less. If every other MMORPG can be said to be a WoW clone, then calling it the mother isn't really that unjustified?
It is the one game that most other MMORPGs that came after it have been copying more or less. If every other MMORPG can be said to be a WoW clone, then calling it the mother isn't really that unjustified?