The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players

[CrazyCracka420]

Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...

If the same person had been retiring, he would be clad in a full +3 armor/weapon set, that gives him

*significant armor bonus, making it much harder for others to even hurt him and then he takes less damage anyway
*significant damage bonus, making it easier (depending on weapon) to hurt others

The armor part is really the most important, its why almost everyone is a bloody tank nowadays, high str builds rule and newbies complain about dying in one hit, whilst it takes them 5+ to kill others.

I'd say the majority of people retire to get looms (unless they've been playing for quite some time).

Here's the same builds at level 30, 33 and 35:

2h
Level 30

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 75

    Converted: 8
    Ironflesh: 8
    Power Strike: 8
    Athletics: 5
    Weapon Master: 2

    Two Handed: 125

Level 33

   

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 27
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 78

Unused skill points: 1

    Converted: 8
    Ironflesh: 8
    Power Strike: 9
    Athletics: 5
    Weapon Master: 3

    Two Handed: 136

Level 35

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 30
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 81

    Converted: 10
    Ironflesh: 8
    Power Strike: 10
    Athletics: 5
    Weapon Master: 3

    Two Handed: 139

I think a non-hybrid build such as this, is the least difference between level 30 and 35, but having 10 PS versus 8 is a big difference, as is 6 more HP. 

So I'll make some more examples:

Archer:

Level 30

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 63

    Converted: 2
    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 6
    Athletics: 6
    Power Draw: 6
    Weapon Master: 6

    Archery: 156

Level 33

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 21
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 66

Unused skill points: 1

    Converted: 2
    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 7
    Athletics: 6
    Power Draw: 7
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 37
    Archery: 156

Level 35
   

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 24
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 69

    Converted: 4
    Ironflesh: 5
    Power Strike: 7
    Athletics: 6
    Power Draw: 8
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 55
    Two Handed: 1
    Archery: 156

Having 8 power draw versus 6 is a big deal

And probably my favorite level 35 build would be a polearm/1h/shield/cav player:

Level 30

   

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 21
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 62

    Converted: 2
    Ironflesh: 3
    Power Strike: 7
    Shield: 4
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 5
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 110
    Polearm: 115

Level 33

   

(click to show/hide)

Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 67

    Unused skill points: 1

    Converted: 2
    Ironflesh: 4
    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 4
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 5
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 116
    Polearm: 115

Level 35

(click to show/hide)

    Strength: 27
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 70

    Converted: 4
    Ironflesh: 4
    Power Strike: 9
    Shield: 4
    Athletics: 5
    Riding: 5
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 120
    Polearm: 115

Some pretty big differences between the levels, I personally think that level 33 or 35 have a pretty good advantage over level 30's (if you take two comparably skilled players).  You can do a lot with 5 levels.

And now after having spent the time messing with builds, being level 35 with 0 looms is not as good as being level 30 with 5 +3's.  To get to level 35, you would have been able to retire at least 17 times (and that's not even taking the generation bonus into account).  That's 5 +3's at least (possibly a lot more).  I'd rather be fully loomed out than at level 35 with no looms.

[oprah_winfrey]

For melee builds I think level 35 is better then looms. Loomed out basically boils down to 10 more body armor and 3 more damage. Level 35 (from huesbys example) is +6 hp and 16% more damage.

I'd rather be fully loomed out than at level 35 with no looms.

Keep in mind, no one else has looms either...

[Son Of Odin]

Renown whore

Lol speak for yourself renown farmer . I was just trying to summarize this thread into a short video clip.

[Tydeus]

For crpg, removing heirlooms is an impossibility, it will never happen so no sense entertaining the idea. What can be done though, is tweaking the effects of heirlooms. It should be obvious that the +10 armor you get from combining chest and glove looms is simply far too strong. It means that you can have a Heavy Kuyak with the same protection as a Heavy Yawshan but with 9 less weight. That's a 40% weight reduction!

I'd rather heirloom effects be dependent upon the type of armor that it is, so something like the following, with each comma separating the additional bonuses from further heirloom levels:

Cloth armor(sub 2.0 weight armors): +2 armor -.5weight, +2 armor, +2 armor
Heavy cloth/leather(make Leather Armor 2.0 weight): +2 armor, +2 armor, +1 armor -1 weight
Mail(sub 14.0 weight armors): +2 armor, +1 armor -1 weight, +1 armor -1 weight
Mail and Plate/Plated: +1 armor -1 weight, +1 armor -1 weight, +1 armor -1 weight
Plate(Transitional and higher, also including Black Armor): +1 armor -2 weight, + 1armor -1 weight, +1 armor -1 weight

Then make all gloves +1 armor for each additional heirloom.

The only things you have to worry about here, is slightly rebalancing armors that are near the weight border. So +1 body armor for the Mongol Armor and slightly increase gold cost as an example. I'm just afraid that the weight reduction will enable usage of higher armor value equipment, but we can always go back and lower armor values if this is the case.

[zagibu]

Don't much care about the rest of this thread, but... what? How? The highest level character right now, one that hasnt retired ever, is like lvl35? How much of an advantage does that level grant? Maybe take one additional hit or move slightly faster...

1. The difference between level 30 and level 35 is the difference between these builds:
- 21/18 7IF 7PS 6AT 3WM 133WPF 70HP
- 24/21 8IF 8PS 7AT 3WM 140WPF 75HP
The advantage here is not take one additional hit OR move slightly faster, it's take one additional hit AND move slightly faster AND hit harder. Probably also higher chance of crushthrough, knockdown and weapon stun as well as reduced glance chance.

2. You don't think very far. Currently, level 35 is almost like a level cap, because xp needed to go higher is practically unattainable. This would of course have to be changed, if looms were removed, because otherwise people would get bored fast and quit. XP curve would have to be flattened and higher levels made attainable to keep the grinders going. This means it would probably not be uncommon to see level 40+ characters on the battlefield. Level 40 can do a 27/24 build like above with everything improved again, level 45 a 30/27 and so on.

3. The general dilemma of the skill and character/equipment gap between long timers and new players is a fact. It exists everywhere in the world. What is the point of removing it? To make it easier for new players? Why should that be a goal for a non-profit mod of an old game? Do you really want the CoD and Halo kids to get into cRPG? There is always a point in the life of a game when influx of new players equals amount of quitters. When that point is reached, you can do two things: keep going or change the game. If you keep going, the game will slowly fade out, but will still matter to a lot of players for some time. If you change the game, all hardcore fans will leave in a rush and if you are lucky, new player influx will increase again. But there will be a vacuum after the change, and sometimes, you won't survive it (SW:G, SupCom 2, DmC come to mind).

We are the hardcore fans, obviously we don't want them to change the game (too much).

[Grumbs]

Looking at lvl 35 builds is kind of pointless imo. It takes an average player years to get there, and if they do they will generally be poor or have fewer looms than someone who retires. People don't build just for 35 too, they build for 33, 34 and with 35 a vague possibility in the future. Only a few will want to go pure into 35 too, they will have a bit of one thing and another

It may be be possible to tweak the retirement level without screwing over lvl 34+ guys though. You could change the curve so the XP you need for lvl 30 now gets you to lvl 33 instead. Then put the rest of the xp needed into 33-35. I have no idea if thats actually possible or even worth doing.

Then the bonuses from looms could be reduced a bit but rank 0's get a little boost.

TBH though, cRPG is a team game. Its not 1v1 so its not like it matters as much as people make out. A newbie should learn to play with his team and not think he can go 1v1 anyone. He will lack the skill/experience and the levels/gear. That teaches you to work with your team

[Ronin]

Thanks to armory, I can never retire and have 4-5 looms if I'm in a good clan. Yay!

[Bronto]

Tydeus, this armor loom rework is genius. Implement now please.

[Banok]

wow I've been whining about looms for years and getting hate for it, and now teeth says remove looms and people actually agree 

not sure straight up removal is best solution at this point tho.

looms were better before when they at least had a potential downside (increased requirement). bring this back for easier fix. A better but harder fix is making looms side grades instead of upgrades, like increased dmg = reduced speed, increase armour = increased wieght.

Ive suggested all this before since apparently people have changed thier minds figured I'd repost.

[[ptx]]

You all seem to underestimate the difference that 10 extra armour points do.

[Kafein]

You all seem to underestimate the difference that 10 extra armour points do.

Why do you think I'm trying to get the second lightest armor with a +5 bonus at +3 ?

(click to show/hide)

Because the first one is fugly

(click to show/hide)

Also now I know why so many top scorers wear light strange

The higher you go in armor rating, the better getting more HP over more armor.

[[ptx]]

And here i thought you above pulling statements out of your ass, Kafein...

1. Click me!
2. Hit Melee damage calc
3. Set weapon to 1h, 32 cut, ~140 proficiency - that is perhaps somewhat above the average unloomed 1h, even. Use 18 strength, 6 PS. Average.
4. Set HP to whatever
5. Set armor to 35 - very light armour, note the average damage (bolded, big number), the minimum damage (smaller number) and amount of body hits to kill (number on the torso)
6. Now increment armour by 10 - to 45, which would be ~ the most common amount of armor worn by most people today (unloomed). Note the numbers again.
7. Then increment by another 10. What do you see?

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Who said its the same thing?  You guys are complaining about looms being unbalanced for new players.  If you want items to be the same then just play Native.

You don't seem to understand. We want the items to be the same (no looms) and the levels but the combat mechanics and items amount and character customization and whatnot from the current c-rpg. This isn't there in Native, so we don't play it.

[Penguin]

I've always thought it would be cool if looms weren't just focused on damage/speed and the player actually got to pick meaningful upgrades to his weapon/armor that fits his/her playstyle. Let's say you wanted to loom a blunt object; it would be pretty neat if you got to select an option for bonus or increased chance of knockdown over an increase in damage and speed. And armor, if you could choose to upgrade its effectiveness against certain weapon types(like blunt) instead of the standard +1/+3/+5 armor. Maybe even an increase in durability that reduces chances of upgrades (controversial stance, I know). In short, getting rid of the crazy loom disparity while still satisfying those whose neckbeards might be ruffled by giving them less effective, but more personalized looms.

[Leesin]

Looms only make a small difference unless you really badly suck at the game, then it's your own skills that need improving and not looms being removed. Considering I'm not by any means a great player and I went 14-0 the other day with shitty light armour and just a MW bamboo spear ( which is still only 28 pierce damage ), upkeep was about 300 gold max, it shows it just isn't about having the highest armour ratings and the most stats. Player skills exceed all of these things.