The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players

[Ronin]

The difference between lvl 30 and lvl 35 with 6 looms can be significant. So what? Isn't this the point of playing cRPG? You nerfed everything about non-loomed horse archery and archery in general. I remember my frustration only because of this thing. Melee is, after all melee. Where people can be useful on level 20.

If anything is unfriendly to beginners is, they do not know how useless archery can be without good levels and good gear. They even think they will do some damage with an archer-melee hybrid. Because those silly archery nerfs are beyond the imagination of a beginner. People like to be legolas, when they experience a high level of frustration; they leave the mod.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

The difference between lvl 30 and lvl 35 with 6 looms can be significant. So what? Isn't this the point of playing cRPG?

For me it is certainly not.

[Teeth]

Looms only make a small difference unless you really badly suck at the game, then it's your own skills that need improving and not looms being removed. Considering I'm not by any means a great player and I went 14-0 the other day with shitty light armour and just a MW bamboo spear ( which is still only 28 pierce damage ), upkeep was about 300 gold max, it shows it just isn't about having the highest armour ratings and the most stats. Player skills exceed all of these things.

With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.

Deep fucking sigh.

(click to show/hide)

Yes, I do need 10 of em.

[dreadnok]

You all seem to underestimate the difference that 10 extra armour points do.

True that

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

indeed, i did miss his point.

don't worry teeth, keep on thinking the pro loom players are retarded and don't understand anything to game balance,  that will work

[[ptx]]

I think you missed his point completely.

[Joker86]

The problem we face here is that different people prefer different aspects of the game. It's really difficult to find an optimal solution.

For example, although I am not a total fan of grind, I prefer having advantages after playing a game for a long time. If it's more arcadey, and I don't see any progress apart from my personal skill increase, the game will have no long term motivation for me. I guess it's because I think that a game should not only be based on player skill. So here I disagree with Teeth. On the other hand I do agree with him that the entire heirloom situation in its current state is rather bad.

One solution I really liked were the "tradeoff"-looms. You give up speed for damage and vice versa. I don't think that this is not enough of a bonus for having retired, because it allows you to customize you build even further, and allows some insane builds eventually.

And this is a possible downside of the system as well. What happens if you take the weapon with the highest attribute value in the game, and push this value even further? Like maximizing the damage on the deadliest axe, or the speed on the fastest sword? Could this break balance? This should be checked. If it does, what is the solution? Limiting the stat raise to some certain values? E.g. speed 100 for every weapon below? This could lead to all looms becoming more similar at +3.

And how about another approach to looms?

What about that heirloom model project? I never used it, so I am not up to date, but I recall having read that it died. I think it would be nice to implement it into the game. I know that every user can customize his texture at his end of the connection, but still I think knowing that everybody who didn't mod anything (which should be the majority) will see your new fancy weapon, is motivation enough.

You can go even further and implement new armours and weapons which are only buyable by loom points (and "soulbound" - not tradeable    ). Those items should NOT be top tier, but high or mid tear and perhaps close some (deliberately placed) gaps. That way you have a certain weapon which is not stronger than others, but suits a certain playstyle the best. Or armour which looks really unique.

I think it would be a huge motivation to aquire those items, but it wouldn't break balance at all.

The important thing is, that "removing heirlooms" in their current state doesn't have to mean a mass GTX of old players. If they keep their loom points, and are allowed to spend them in the new heirloom system, only few will quit. Maybe the new looms don't give you as much power as the old ones did, but relatively to the other players with less loom points your advantage stays.

[Leesin]

With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.

Deep fucking sigh.

(click to show/hide)

Yes, I do need 10 of em.

Erm since when did I say anything about ITEM BALANCE? that's a different matter and completely irrelevant to what either you or I said, what I said was basically "skill always trumps looms" which it does, so why don't you climb off of your horse and stop being a fucking queen about it. Do looms make a difference? yes they do, do they ultimately decide who wins a fight? no they don't, is this an RPG type of game where character and item progression is a main feature? yes it is. Lowering the power of looms is one thing, removing them completely is another, I'll leave it to you to decide which one I disagree with, I at least hope you're smart enough to figure that one out instead of pissing the bed about it.

I think you missed his point completely.

I think Teeth missed my point completely.

[Teeth]

Erm since when did I say anything about ITEM BALANCE? that's a different matter and completely irrelevant to what either you or I said, what I said was basically "skill always trumps looms" which it does, so why don't you climb off of your horse and stop being a fucking queen about it.

I think Teeth missed my point completely.

Right, I will explain myself thoroughly.

The relevancy is that I project your argument on something else to show to you that it is flawed, because you do not seem to see it in the case of looms. You say that looms do not matter because skill decides who wins in the end. 'Skill always trumps looms'. Now I apply this reasoning to item balance. I illustrated my point by saying that one item being hugely OP, the hypothethical example of a Danish with 48c and a 100 speed, would not matter, because skill would still decide. 'Skill always trumps looms' in the exact same way as 'Skill always trumps stat differences'.

Yet I hope you can agree with me that balance is important, even when skill is the deciding factor, and I hope you can apply the same thought to looms. That the strength of looms does in fact matter, regardless of skill being the deciding factor.

[Necrorave]

You don't seem to understand. We want the items to be the same (no looms) and the levels but the combat mechanics and items amount and character customization and whatnot from the current c-rpg. This isn't there in Native, so we don't play it.

I know what you guys are saying.  Although this post was merely just about items, and that's what I spoke about.  I did not put levels into consideration.

I may not agree with your view of looms, but I'm still open minded to what people could consider a replacement.  So far I only like the idea of choosing what you want to upgrade in an item rather then it being chose for you.  Although that could be exploited pretty badly with things like the bastard sword and their speed.

Some may not agree but I think they are fine as they are.

(I like the idea of lowering weight of armor instead of the +10 boost in defense though.)

[Grumbs]

With this bullshit attitude we can just remove balance, don't worry, you are not the only one. What does it matter if a Danish Greatsword has a 100 speed and 48 cut? A good player with a 32c 98 speed NCS can still beat a bad player with that Danish, so who cares? Let's leave everything gravely unbalanced because skill decides in the end.

Deep fucking sigh.

(click to show/hide)

Yes, I do need 10 of em.

Striving for balance is important, but most of the time battle is not clean balanced fights so there is some leeway. People gank, stab from range, backstab, hit when people are knocked down etc. If a 1v1 becomes a 2v1 it could be like one side has a 80cut weapon against a 40cut, or one hit of which can be unblockable. The skill in battle is more about choosing your fights, outnumbering people, retreating (even if you leave team mates to die), zerging into a group and dividing the enemy up into smaller groups. Mechanical fighting skills are important too ofc. That + battle awareness will win games, whether you do +3 damage or not

Its not like balance is unimportant, it blatantly is but in the scheme of things +3 damage and +1 speed is not much to be concerned about imo. I would support tweaking them though, I don't really mind either way as long as people still have long term goals so they don't quit. Gloves should not give +5 armour maybe. Mail mittens go from +3 to +8 I believe, over 100% bonus. Again though, in the scheme of things they are just cheap plate mittens which anyone can buy

[Leesin]

Right, I will explain myself thoroughly.

The relevancy is that I project your argument on something else to show to you that it is flawed, because you do not seem to see it in the case of looms. You say that looms do not matter because skill decides who wins in the end. 'Skill always trumps looms'. Now I apply this reasoning to item balance. I illustrated my point by saying that one item being hugely OP, the hypothethical example of a Danish with 48c and a 100 speed, would not matter, because skill would still decide. 'Skill always trumps looms' in the exact same way as 'Skill always trumps stat differences'.

Yet I hope you can agree with me that balance is important, even when skill is the deciding factor, and I hope you can apply the same thought to looms. That the strength of looms does in fact matter, regardless of skill being the deciding factor.

I can too keep spamming minuses on your posts Teeth if it means that much to you  .

 Yes I agree the strength of items matters, of course it does, there is no denying that, but in a field where everyone can get any item they want in time, I don't see how your comparison has any relevance to Heirlooms. Now considering what you suggested, i.e just removing looms altogether because they somehow make it so newer players can't kill other plaers, that is what I disagreed with. If looms were 'nerfed' it wouldn't bother me, but having heirlooms is just another RPG feature of cRPG, you don't need to nuke things to "balance" them. 

New players to Warband are going to die regardless of looms, if they're not new to Warband then they can hardly use the excuse "I only die and can never kill anyone because of looms", you and I both know that would be bullshit, there are plenty of good native players who come to cRPG with no looms and do well.

Basically, balancing looms is a good idea, deleting them for absolutely no reason isn't, it's another part of progression that people enjoy about cRPG. Maybe they should make a server where you can't use Heirlooms and those that don't like Heirlooms can play there.

[BombInAPizzaBox]

As a generation 0 player since I play cRPG inconsistently and have respec'd a thousand times over, I've only felt disadvantaged when:

• Trying to play as a longbowman, absolutely miserable experiance that has convinced me to never return to using bows of any kind ever again in this mod.
• When I first starting playing this mod as a warband newb who came to learn how to melee, this was back when I thought the game was entirely about your raw abilities and didn't really attempt to use teamwork or play opportunistically.   

Obviously I've never known what the advantage of having loomed gear is since I've never used the stuff, but as far as I can tell its by no means crippling to not have, at least for the builds I like, and I imagine being a 1her with a blunt or pierce weapon is fine as well.

Then again perhaps I've just grown used to being massacred because I don't have the loomed stuff and play DTV most of the time anyway...

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

It is very nice to back up your arguments with examples, but don't you think your examples are just slightly far fetched? of course a 100 speed 48 cut danish would give to much of an edge over skill.

But the question is do the looms give to much over skill? if they would give + 5 speed and 8 damage that would be yes and iirc it was like that in the past, it was toned down. Now what is it? +3 damage and +1 speed? You are telling us that gives to much of an edge on skill? I don't think so, I'm very sure you give me an adequate build and a mw polearm, you would still hand my ass over in duels. Maybe once or twice i would get a crit in making you very close too lose but in no case its going to change the whole game around.

Another very important thing you don't take in account, damage randomisation, i will take an examples, you like those. A cav rides past me, i throw him my Mw throwing lance, i dont one hit him. Next round i have a basic throwing lance i found of a dead body, use it on the same cav guy, i one shot while he rides away. WTF?
I also tried some time ago with royanss the damage in between mw jarids and normal one. the damage i did with mw where sometimes lower then normal jarids.

So what does it really change? Well maybe you will be able to finish off an enemy instead of leaving him at 5 hp. I really do believe you are over exagerating the problem.

Some classes really need, A HA with looms can become pretty decent, some need it less, archers with double loomed items that hit far ahrder then a normal archer. Hopliting with a throwing spear is like the day and the night. with a normal lance its glancefest, with a mw i can perform well. You could hoplite very well without a loomed throwing lance. Skilled players can actually live without looms, even i manage to eprform well sometimes with unloomed gear.

The only problem is, you think that the pro loom side is full off retard that understand nothing at game balancing, you are not willing to see our side and this is why this conversation is going nowhere i understand that looms in some cases can get out of hand , If we would have had this thread in the pst where looms gave + insane speed + insane damage i would have totaly agreed with you.

final word : devs dont plan of withdrawing looms , so no point talking about it

[Teeth]

Mail mittens go from +3 to +8 I believe, over 100% bonus.

That is another good point, the absolute increases from looms means that the relative bonuses differ. Which means that pre-loom balance is not the same as loomed balance. Which is also quite a flaw in the system. A 45 cut weapon going to 48 cut is hardly as significant as a 23p weapon going to 26p.

(click to show/hide)

I can too keep spamming minuses on your posts Teeth if it means that much to you  .

 Yes I agree the strength of items matters, of course it does, there is no denying that, but in a field where everyone can get any item they want in time, I don't see how your comparison has any relevance to Heirlooms. Now considering what you suggested, i.e just removing looms altogether because they somehow make it so newer players can't kill other plaers, that is what I disagreed with. If looms were 'nerfed' it wouldn't bother me, but having heirlooms is just another RPG feature of cRPG, you don't need to nuke things to "balance" them. 

New players to Warband are going to die regardless of looms, if they're not new to Warband then they can hardly use the excuse "I only die and can never kill anyone because of looms", you and I both know that would be bullshit, there are plenty of good native players who come to cRPG with no looms and do well.

Basically, balancing looms is a good idea, deleting them for absolutely no reason isn't, it's another part of progression that people enjoy about cRPG. Maybe they should make a server where you can't use Heirlooms and those that don't like Heirlooms can play there.

Common strategy to get anything done is advocating the extreme and accepting compromise

I know looms are a huge part of the game to some, and even though I cannot fully relate, I am aware that cRPG partly thanks its long active playerbase to the progression that looms and levels provide. Their effect is quite large though, which is a thorn in the eye of people who value competivity and core gameplay above progression. It bothers me personally that I can't switch gear around all the time without having a notable effectivity drop and I think new players deserve some kind of catch-up system or starting bonus. Skip the looms system, damn right.

(click to show/hide)

It is very nice to back up your arguments with examples, but don't you think your examples are just slightly far fetched? of course a 100 speed 48 cut danish would give to much of an edge over skill.

But the question is do the looms give to much over skill? if they would give + 5 speed and 8 damage that would be yes and iirc it was like that in the past, it was toned down. Now what is it? +3 damage and +1 speed? You are telling us that gives to much of an edge on skill? I don't think so, I'm very sure you give me an adequate build and a mw polearm, you would still hand my ass over in duels. Maybe once or twice i would get a crit in making you very close too lose but in no case its going to change the whole game around.

Another very important thing you don't take in account, damage randomisation, i will take an examples, you like those. A cav rides past me, i throw him my Mw throwing lance, i dont one hit him. Next round i have a basic throwing lance i found of a dead body, use it on the same cav guy, i one shot while he rides away. WTF?
I also tried some time ago with royanss the damage in between mw jarids and normal one. the damage i did with mw where sometimes lower then normal jarids.

So what does it really change? Well maybe you will be able to finish off an enemy instead of leaving him at 5 hp. I really do believe you are over exagerating the problem.

Some classes really need, A HA with looms can become pretty decent, some need it less, archers with double loomed items that hit far ahrder then a normal archer. Hopliting with a throwing spear is like the day and the night. with a normal lance its glancefest, with a mw i can perform well. You could hoplite very well without a loomed throwing lance. Skilled players can actually live without looms, even i manage to eprform well sometimes with unloomed gear.

The only problem is, you think that the pro loom side is full off retard that understand nothing at game balancing, you are not willing to see our side and this is why this conversation is going nowhere i understand that looms in some cases can get out of hand , If we would have had this thread in the pst where looms gave + insane speed + insane damage i would have totaly agreed with you.

final word : devs dont plan of withdrawing looms , so no point talking about it

A MW Ashwood pike (33p) will still do 10% more damage than a non loomed one. Which means that even after all the random factors, I will have 10% more damage output overall, even more with the way armor works. For free, no penalties. For balance overall is the only thing that matters, sure you can one shot someone with a spiked mace and need 3 hits with a flamberge, this is all completely irrelevant. Then there is the 1 speed, and the 5/10/10 head/body/leg armour you can also gain. Which reduces damage received by more than 10%, a whole lot more. 10 body armour, that is the difference between wearing Archon's Armor and Black Armor, without any of the wpf and movement penalties.

To illustrate the effect of 10 body armor difference, using the damage calculator. 7 PS, 120 wpf, 40c. Against 50 body armor it does an average of 15.5 damage, against 60 body armor it does 9.5 damage on average. That is a 39% damage reduction, just because you played the game longer than the other guy. Looms are simply a huge deal.

At least the devs realise that the current situation is not desirable, because they intend to make any mechanics like looms based on tradeoffs in le secret project.