Author Topic: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players  (Read 8152 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #105 on: April 05, 2013, 07:03:28 pm »
0
Between two players of similar skill looms, level, build and equipment do define who wins more often.

To argue that skill has "enough" (exactly how much is enough ?) influence for looms to be "ok" is not going to work. For me the problem with this reasoning resides in the premisses. The game doesn't have to be fair on the chances of winning to be enjoyable, and relatedly, winning shouldn't be what defines your overal satisfaction with the game. We shouldn't even care about people getting "advantages" because they have looms, levels, whatever.

Offline Macropus

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #106 on: April 05, 2013, 07:05:53 pm »
0
Well c-rpg is not all about skill, but also about having good items and character build, that's where the "rpg" part is.

Offline Kafein

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2013, 07:08:43 pm »
+1
Well c-rpg is not all about skill, but also about having good items and character build, that's where the "rpg" part is.

Since when Role Playing Game means making multicriteria optimization ?

Offline Ronin

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2013, 07:17:36 pm »
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cRPG is not a RPG.
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Offline Phew

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2013, 07:24:32 pm »
+2
Would a revised reward system satisfy you loom haters?

i.e. if a lvl 25 with no looms kills a lvl 35 that's fully loomed, they get a massive gold/xp reward, but the high level/loom guy gets little or no reward for killing the newbie?

This would retain the progression/customization aspect of the game while rewarding players that "punch above their weight class". Would also make it hard for high level guys to pay upkeep on expensive stuff, because they wouldn't have as many opportunities for large payouts. It would also encourage top players to "slum it" on unloomed low-level chars, but this just makes it easier on the newbies also, so I don't see that as a problem.


Offline Necrorave

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2013, 07:26:21 pm »
0
Would a revised reward system satisfy you loom haters?

i.e. if a lvl 25 with no looms kills a lvl 35 that's fully loomed, they get a massive gold/xp reward, but the high level/loom guy gets little or no reward for killing the newbie?

This would retain the progression/customization aspect of the game while rewarding players that "punch above their weight class". Would also make it hard for high level guys to pay upkeep on expensive stuff, because they wouldn't have as many opportunities for large payouts. It would also encourage top players to "slum it" on unloomed low-level chars, but this just makes it easier on the newbies also, so I don't see that as a problem.

Code like that is a bit complicated and would slow down the servers immensely.  (I would think, I am not certain though.)

Offline Phew

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2013, 07:31:44 pm »
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Code like that is a bit complicated and would slow down the servers immensely.  (I would think, I am not certain though.)

It's not like the rewards need to be calculated in real time; make it like upkeep where it's just assessed at the end of the round. The computational overhead of a few calculations every 5 minutes or so would be miniscule.

Offline Necrorave

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2013, 07:35:03 pm »
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It's not like the rewards need to be calculated in real time; make it like upkeep where it's just assessed at the end of the round. The computational overhead of a few calculations every 5 minutes or so would be miniscule.

The calculations would not be a big deal, although saving everything that happened in the battle may cause a problem.  This is me trying to find problems in a field I am still new to.  Also my way of saying a Radius bonus is better c:

Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2013, 07:35:35 pm »
+5
Well c-rpg is not all about skill, but also about having good items and character build, that's where the "rpg" part is.

Was about to go to town on your post, but you wrote "not all about skill," and that's something I agree with completely.
`~`


On another note, here comes an old man rant:
This mod, as much as the new guys aren't happy about it, is pretty scaled down in terms of difficulty. Those purchases you're complaining about? The OH SO unattainable expensive armor, advanced weaponry etc etc that you're incessantly insisting is REQUIRED for the equal footing of combat, used to be far worse.

People are getting 500 gold a round. A ROUND. Shit is cash, is what it is (literally). Stop complaining.

We used to fight 7 god damn minutes PER ROUND for a measly 34 gold. 40 gold, if we were lucky with a fully populated server (about maybe 50[? someone help me out] people back then). That padded cloth that people don't even look at anymore was my first major purchase in the game at 340 gold at the time (currently 588). I grinded for a month to get my Milanese plate, and my Cataphract took longer (I'm so sorry I ever sold you, Keyarna. Those were hard times, but I found you again).

Heirlooms were unheard of, and battlefield leviathans ruled supreme (Fedor, Crymoar among others) Our weapons would do nothing, and standing against them was generally suicide. We saw fighters leveling as far as 48 (I was 44 myself at the time of the rebalance)

Introduce the heirloom system: All of a sudden, the playing field is made more equal (for the most part) because we see more retirements, and more "super weapons" come into play. The heirloom system was made to balance out the levels, and the increase in damage/defense of items and armor was a fair price to pay to deny insane amounts of leveling (of course, that brought its own problems *coughKeshcough*).

Heirlooms in the form of weapons and armor serve their purpose; they make good weapons better, and allow cheaper, weaker weapons to compete with the big guns in addition to limiting mad leveling.

Raising the floor and lowering the ceiling means a smaller deviation of item stats. The demand for heirlooms will go down, prices will go up, and the market floods with pointless surplus weapons that no one cares about. Gold will be hoarded, the market will stall, and then we're back in the shitter with weapons and levels again. What's the point of retiring if there's no incentive to do so (unless you're fond of getting shat on at levels 1-5)?

It'll be like the old days of high leveled combatants who don't care to retire anymore (albeit level 35, 36 as opposed to higher). Except entry level people will get shit on (just like The Golden Era of the Bah Mace and Rape Train). This person will look back to now, and think "shit I guess keeping the incentive to heirloom shit might have saved us from this," as an arrow storm of the Clan Longstride  demolishes his meager cover.

Riders of Stratia will tear through the ranks. The Murder Ravens will clash with Astralis of the Shadows, sweeping all the new players aside without a second thought. And the Occitan of Frisia will bring castles down killing and burning all in their way. Naturally EU is used to monarchies and dynasties and shit, so they're really business as usual (NA drama thread, anyone?) except with superpowers being supererpowers.

Actually, that sounds fun as nuts. Let's do it. +1 op.

tl;dr The future is bleak for new players if we bring the heirloom stat ceiling down and the floor up. Stop complaining.
edit; spelling and syntax
edit2; tl;dr is more reflective of what I intended
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 08:15:38 pm by Dexxtaa »
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Offline Macropus

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2013, 07:37:55 pm »
-1
Since when Role Playing Game means making multicriteria optimization ?
I've no idea what that is and im too lazy to google it, but anyway, RPG assumes people can have different armor and weapons quality which ofc will affect everything and ... meh, im too sleepy to write in english right now.  :(

Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2013, 07:41:16 pm »
+1
I've no idea what that is and im too lazy to google it, but anyway, RPG assumes people can have different armor and weapons quality which ofc will affect everything and ... meh, im too sleepy to write in english right now.  :(

To paraphrase, he's being ironic.

"Since when was a role playing game about min-maxing"

Implying that his take on this is : As far as "rpg" goes in cRPG, it's not really cRPG. But more like cMINMAX.
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Offline The_Bloody_Nine

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2013, 07:45:53 pm »
0
1. I agree that the question "Sure I can play with other items but if I make a 1h alt with 6PS and have one 1h loom why would I use another weapon?" was a bit stupid and over the top. Also I see that it is kind of my own fault when I pick the 1 loomed weapon and let it hinder me picking some others. Still it is like that, when I have no weapon from armory borrowed I enjoy the freedom of choice and picking up weapons from ground, If I have one loom I only play with that.

2. I am ok with the current system and I have settled with it a long time ago that many want heirlooms similar as they are now. This discussion is over 2 years old and you are right, looms are part of c-rpg even if I think of them annoying at times. I hope however they will find another solution for M:BG which they seem to do.

3. I can only guess how new players feel when they try this mod these days. In my opinion the biggest barricade is the steep learning curve (over 3 years old discussion), that's Warband. But when I try to think myself into a new player I imagine it to be demotivating if on top of that you get the feeling (even if its wrong) everybody got an advantage because of their looms. How long does it take to retire the first time to get one Item +1?

4.
If you can't be assed to do that, then what do we care??

I don't like that arrogant attitude. Everybody who don't want to join a clan (at first) doesn't concern the rest or isn't part of the game or even the community? bullshit.

Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2013, 07:51:52 pm »
+1
4. I don't like that arrogant attitude. Everybody who don't want to join a clan (at first) doesn't concern the rest or isn't part of the game or even the community? bullshit.


I don't mean to be a cherry picker, but I personally feel that if a game is going to have a balance mechanic specifically engineered to be based on an allegiance to a faction, it's probably likely that their target audience is clanners and team players.

CoD might be a more suitable place for one man armies and (heh) "Lone Wolves."
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Offline Necrorave

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2013, 07:54:32 pm »
0
"Lone Wolves."

More like, no friends :)

Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The ranking system is too unfriendly to new players
« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2013, 07:56:24 pm »
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More like, no friends :)

Well, that's not true. I have... um.

:(
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