ONLY SOLUTION DECREASE DRAW SPEED OR DECREASE DAMAGE , preferrable abit of both
I dont think your opinion is an educated one. Archers already populate the bottom of the score boards, if anything, damage needs to be increased and the reticule needs to hold out for 2 extra seconds so archers can aim properly. And people should whine about effectiveness, there's a reason why almost every melee fighter had a shield back in the day. Unlike crpg.
I dont think your opinion is an educated one. Archers already populate the bottom of the score boards, if anything, damage needs to be increased and the reticule needs to hold out for 2 extra seconds so archers can aim properly. And people should whine about effectiveness, there's a reason why almost every melee fighter had a shield back in the day. Unlike crpg.
I dont think your opinion is an educated one. Archers already populate the bottom of the score boards, if anything, damage needs to be increased and the reticule needs to hold out for 2 extra seconds so archers can aim properly. And people should whine about effectiveness, there's a reason why almost every melee fighter had a shield back in the day. Unlike crpg.
Rufio, what do you think is the average k/d-ratio of a footarcher and a foot 2h guy? Both above level > 25. The abominable archer must surely be at least on par or more likely be above the meager melee man, right?
Also K/D =/= skill
oh and yes i know from hours and hours of waisting my life away in this game that archers do actually top the scoreboards to.
How do you think any archer feels when most shots are misses, and when they hit anyting its rarely a kill?
Who are you and on which server you play?
Good thread, but as said 7-9 PD Rus/longbow users are what's really causing the rage on the servers atm.
Rufio, what do you think is the average k/d-ratio of a footarcher and a foot 2h guy? Both above level > 25. The abominable archer must surely be at least on par or more likely be above the meager melee man, right?
ill say nothing to archery whine....
I think the REAL problem is that people create builds like:
30/9
10 IF
10 PS
2 Athletics
3 WM
130 2H wpf
0 ability to do anything about ranged
...and then they complain about ranged.
Athletics:0Even better!
I think the REAL problem is that people create builds like:
30/9
10 IF
10 PS
2 Athletics
3 WM
130 2H wpf
0 ability to do anything about ranged
...and then they complain about ranged.
It's like a 1H shielder running around with a warhammer in an open field and complaining about cavalry. Maybe you should... I dunno... get something to counter your nemesis?
"But I don't wanna adapt! Wanna make single minded build and pwn everything with it!"
But ultimately I don't think that bodkins are quite as overpowered as people seem to say regarding the heavy armored tincans.
The most important is PD- your build is, ekhm, atypical (17?) and ineffective(imho).My lvl 30 build is 18/21 this gen, so I am getting 6 PD. The thought came to me as I was close to hitting 30 and figured it might be useful to check the damage I am doing now, and then see how much it really changes when I go to 6 PD. I included the fact I had 17 strength because I saw a damage algorithm from Paul which made it appear that raw strength has a slight impact on arrow damage.
The best/OP archers have a (absolute minimum) >+6 PD (exception is HA, but they are speed premium for damage).
What I've noticed is that Rus Bow and Longbow tends to 2hit while other bows are a lot less threatening.. Probably something to do with the PD requirements, too.As I mentioned I am using MW Bodkins & MW Horn Bow, which does 1 damage more than a vanilla rus bow. So the averages I posted regarding hits -> kill will likely translate for most Rus Bow users, however of course someone with a MW Rus & Bodkins will do more damage. I can't see the average hits to kill for mid-heavy people going from 4 to 2, but I could see it being closer to 3, with the occasional 2 shot. Of course this is just speculation.
I appreciate the time you took to do this test and hats off to you for this...Thanks! :)
...Also u must realise most people are bothered by sheer ammount of ranged on the servers not individuals or individual damage, yes i can sucessfully dodge one archer shooting at me but 5 or more no way.
so basicly its not op that u can ~3~4 shot people with a hit and run build like yours, witch you will outrun most people with in archer gear. and now be a nice little archer and take 7+ pd like the moar dedicated real archers and see how u will rofl about,The biggest complaints I've heard were from people claiming that bodkin arrows needed to be reverted to cut, and discussion that the lower tiered bows became too powerful with pierce damage. I started with the lowest possible PD needed for my bow, to see how much truth there was to these claims. You can see the results, which I think prove that a) a 15/24 hornbow archer can be effective, and b) a 15/24 hornbow archer will probably average between 3-5 hits to kill someone.
As an archer who runs around with a base 6PD (18 strength), Masterwork Bodkin arrows, Masterwork Longbow & 159 wpf I could quite happily help you with these tests if you wish. I am willing to jump onto a duel server and set up a similar distance and do a similar amount of tests.
I could probably collar Gisbert in to help as well, with his 7(?) PD, 173(?) wpf, Masterwork Longbow and Masterwork Bodkin arrows.
Also, on top of that, I am able to see specific hp levels (by percentage) due to being an admin and the "show player names cheat" so this could help give a more accurate representation of the exact damage each hit is doing, on average, at a specific distance, specific height, power draw, weapon prof etc etc. (I'm sure no one would mind the use of this in course of scientific experimentation that would benefit the community.)
From the top of my head, I have to say I do do a reasonable amount of damage, but most of my kills come from close range kiting of silly two handers. I normally kill medium armoured people (50 body armour) in three shots (unless they increase my speed bonus my jumping at me or running towards me/doing the idiot spin dance that we all know is completely ineffective)
So yes, in short, i'm quite happy to give a different view point on this as well.
Standard values: (c-rpg)
armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.5
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.4
armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.6
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 1.1
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 1.3
crpg penetration flag(applied modification for bows, crossbows and thrown)
armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.78
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.6
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.48
armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 0.96
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.36
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 0.78
QQ blah blah blah QQ...
WARNING! THIS THREAD IS FUCKING LONG
Archery is for pussies.
WARNING! THIS THREAD IS FUCKING LONGArchery is for pussies.
Naturally, coz pussies archers are OP:
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You used only hornbow and 5 pd :/ Lots of archers have other bows and other stats and I for example can easily 2shot a tincan with my 7pd/8wm/mw longbow/mw bodkins ^^
Most archers are below lvl 32 and have a different kind of build, but still people like me count in the mind of all the whiners getting 2shot^^
Just one thing, do you realize that is possible to have 9/10 pd and 150 wpf at lvl 32/33?
That's just insane, both epic damage and decent accuracy. But archery doesn't have anything to do with that. It's free wpf and wm being useless.
Just one thing, do you realize that is possible to have 9/10 pd and 150 wpf at lvl 32/33?
That's just insane, both epic damage and decent accuracy. But archery doesn't have anything to do with that. It's free wpf and wm being useless.
Good job Mr. Shine!! :D
One would think it works that way, but each point into power draw at those high levels decrease accuracy and (I believe) decrease draw speed. So the 150 wpf that would normally be pretty accurate with 4-6 PD starts to be less effective. Archers with 9+ (and I would argue 8+) have precision problems. But as others have said infantry won't remember the 5 missed arrows, just the 1 that hit and hurt alot :)
One would think it works that way, but each point into power draw at those high levels decrease accuracy and (I believe) decrease draw speed. So the 150 wpf that would normally be pretty accurate with 4-6 PD starts to be less effective. Archers with 9+ (and I would argue 8+) have precision problems. But as others have said infantry won't remember the 5 missed arrows, just the 1 that hit and hurt alot :)
I guess no one read my reply. :rolleyes:
Oh well, carry on the lobby-ism.
People complain about archers, people complain about cavalry, people complain about pure STR, people complain about swing spammers, people complain about shielders. If you want to just play 2h duels, why not go native and let the rest of us play crpg? I play crpg because I got bored of the lack of control I had over chars in native. All these different types of classes are what make crpg fun to play, it seems that the 2handers that whine the loudest get archery nerfed again and again, ok a couple of nerfs were needed back in the day, but right now I think it's in a good place. A horse can run through an archer no problem. Everything counters something. Perhaps those that complain need to be a bit more flexible and either adapt their char or make a new one that can counter archers rather than run here and complain.
Ofcourse noone cares about your post, because you suggested a neutral view on classes :shock: How dare you? That community is not capable of being neutral :rolleyes:
People forget that this is a War simulator. Not a God Complex simulator. You're expected to kill and die. If you're getting killed too much by a certain class, adapt. I don't see Cooties (p.e.) complaining about it, and he still tops scores constantly while being a Boromir, with a shield on his back.
Wars were won with tactics, shieldwalls, ranged waves, timed cavalry support, and engineered equipment. Not by Boromirs.
While being an archer in this mod, specially now, you're already gimped by the simple fact that the jump shooting was removed, but the jump swinging is still here, even though no one on his perfect mind would jump and swing heavy metal weaponry to try and hit something, this isn't Hollywood. And this "feature" was a great help against cav specially.
Also add the fact that a simple hit from an arbalest/lance/2hCav/1hCav/poleaxes/2handers is enough to kill a dedicated archer.
Sure they don't wear expensive armor and expensive lightsabers, but if you keep in mind the ultimate truth that 95% of the time, when a round ends the bodkin stacks are repair (350+ each), adding a bow for almost 700, and a side weapon if you have a build like that (like mine, and tenne p.e.) adding more 500+, and still having in mind how squishy an archer is even paying hard for it, you might start seeing things differently.
Before whining, put yourself in a Neutral position, and reflect about every single fact weighting in the final formula.
People complain about archers, people complain about cavalry, people complain about pure STR, people complain about swing spammers, people complain about shielders. If you want to just play 2h duels, why not go native and let the rest of us play crpg? I play crpg because I got bored of the lack of control I had over chars in native. All these different types of classes are what make crpg fun to play, it seems that the 2handers that whine the loudest get archery nerfed again and again, ok a couple of nerfs were needed back in the day, but right now I think it's in a good place. A horse can run through an archer no problem. Everything counters something. Perhaps those that complain need to be a bit more flexible and either adapt their char or make a new one that can counter archers rather than run here and complain.
It's realism argument actually, xbowmen and archers can't because they have to be precise and there aren't any archers who would jump kite IRL. But a person needs a functional brain to get that and sadly some of our forum comrades don't fit the reqs...
Nope, he always tries to buff the class he's currently rolling and is never willing to admit it. Typical hypocrite.
This formula is much more complex than what many people tend to beleive. The main advantage of archer is the range (quite a dull sentence there). It's very complicated to estimate the average impact of this. However, it shouldn't be forgotten. Archers are defended against cav and inf because especially at very close range, bows are deadly weapons. The best way to kill an archer remains stealth, for both cav and inf, because when an archer spots someone approaching, he can immediatly react and shoot at this opponent, or run away.
In the case of cav, one of the most suicidal things to do is heading towards an aware (or defended, or not close enough to something you can hide behind) archer, as the speed bonus will increase the arrow damage, and the rate of fire makes the time window for "safe" attacking very short (you have to stay very close to the archer in order to maximise the distance yet still be able to reach him before he shoots again, a last second shot is a sure headshot).
This extremely good, ranged defense gives the class big advantages. The raw stats shouldn't be expected to be as high as those of classes that actually have to take much more risks and be the target of much more threats.
Also add the fact that a simple hit from an arbalest/lance/2hCav/1hCav/poleaxes/2handers is enough to kill a dedicated archer.
Sure they don't wear expensive armor and expensive lightsabers, but if you keep in mind the ultimate truth that 95% of the time, when a round ends the bodkin stacks are repair (350+ each), adding a bow for almost 700, and a side weapon if you have a build like that (like mine, and tenne p.e.) adding more 500+, and still having in mind how squishy an archer is even paying hard for it, you might start seeing things differently.
So you say other archers are in less danger and less threatened or targeted by players than other classes? Ever played on servers?^^
It's funny how so many people always say "oh it's so easy as an archer to defend yourself against incoming cav". "It is so easy to headshot a horseguy who trys to kill you."
Blablabla, play an archer for a while and we speak again.
Tell me how I shall draw my bow while constantly getting bumped or slashed by a horseman that trys to kill me. Maybe I'm such a noobarcher after 8 gens and lvl 32 that I can learn something from you guys, as you seem to be the most skilled archers in this game :rolleyes:
So a guy with plate and a big sword would jumpkill in reallife? :lol: :rolleyes:
Put 6-7 PD, Repeat test
Its the same as if i wanted to test melee dmg. There would be a HUGE difference between 5 PS and 6-7 PS
He could, if he wanted to. People need to drop the common misconception about plate armor
We've talked about that theme in another thread over a long time.
Sure you can jump and hit. But now try this with full swing and the intention to hit someone and THEN miss you hit because he steps back. All your power put in that swing and your jump will go further and you will just land on your face or arse.
It's the same about all the jumpkicking in martial arts movies. It's good for films etc, but no real fighter would ever do that in reallife, because it's stupid and very dangerous for your own
Check this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buPRU02T0fU&feature=player_detailpage#t=278s
Quote from: karasu on Yesterday at 10:39:55
People forget that this is a War simulator. Not a God Complex simulator. You're expected to kill and die. If you're getting killed too much by a certain class, adapt. I don't see Cooties (p.e.) complaining about it, and he still tops scores constantly while being a Boromir, with a shield on his back.
Wars were won with tactics, shieldwalls, ranged waves, timed cavalry support, and engineered equipment. Not by Boromirs.
Quote from: karasu on Yesterday at 10:39:55
While being an archer in this mod, specially now, you're already gimped by the simple fact that the jump shooting was removed, but the jump swinging is still here, even though no one on his perfect mind would jump and swing heavy metal weaponry to try and hit something, this isn't Hollywood. And this "feature" was a great help against cav specially.
Quote from: karasu on Yesterday at 10:39:55
Also add the fact that a simple hit from an arbalest/lance/2hCav/1hCav/poleaxes/2handers is enough to kill a dedicated archer.
Quote from: karasu on Yesterday at 10:39:55
Sure they don't wear expensive armor and expensive lightsabers, but if you keep in mind the ultimate truth that 95% of the time, when a round ends the bodkin stacks are repair (350+ each), adding a bow for almost 700, and a side weapon if you have a build like that (like mine, and tenne p.e.) adding more 500+, and still having in mind how squishy an archer is even paying hard for it, you might start seeing things differently.
Quote from: karasu on Yesterday at 10:39:55
Before whining, put yourself in a Neutral position, and reflect about every single fact weighting in the final formula.
Posted by: Leshma
« on: Today at 00:13:57 »
Throwers can jump while throw as well...
It's realism argument actually, xbowmen and archers can't because they have to be precise and there aren't any archers who would jump kite IRL. But a person needs a functional brain to get that and sadly some of our forum comrades don't fit the reqs...
Seriously don't take karasu's posting about balance seriously. He cried so hard against archery when he was playing 2h and was actually supporting removal of jump kite. But suddenly (khm khm) he thinks it's unfair... oh my!
btw blueknight, I don't 1 shoot anything that isn't a naked peasant, due to the simple fact that I only have 6 PD (who needs more anyway) and it rains 80% of the time, damn I have to headshot cooties twince almost in point blank in order to kill him with normal weather. :lol:
What is more, you can always hit sb from every distance ( I am not talking about accuracy, just about possibility )
( I am not talking about accuracy, just about possibility )
TBH Xant even in your video Achilles have a pivot. Not just jump, slash-block-slash, then land.
about jumpslashing:
i don`t know of any fighting techiques with jumpslashing...when its realistic i want a link to that plz...need to learn it xD only because i`m interested in it because i fighting in reallife, being in a fencing school...learning german school fencing like in the late medieval times.
though i would like it better ingame when no one can jumpslash/jumpshot. melee need control over swing(swinging power comes from body not from arms) and range need precision(already worse by jumping and no jumpshooting anymore)
WARNING! THIS THREAD IS FUCKING LONG
There are a lot of archery threads around right now.
A lot of people are saying a lot of things about archery.
Archery is EZ-mode.
Archery is under-powered.
Archery is broken because of bodkins.
Archery kills in 2-3 hits.
Archers should avoid firing into melee.
Archers should fire into melee.
Archery is over powered.
Archery is for pussies.
Everyone has something to say about archery, but there never seems to be enough hard evidence.
I'm hoping that I can at least provide some context with this thread, so at the very least we can frame the archer whine-fest with a semblance of truth.I spent some time during the course of a few days to keep track of the amount of hits it took me to kill a wide assortment of
What I did:poor suckershelpful test subjects, using a controlled distance while recording what their strength, ironflesh, and total body armor (chest + gloves) were. I would kill each subject 1-3 times from short, medium, and long range. In the end I had roughly 25 kills from each range, or about 75 individual tests in all. Still plenty of room for variation, but enough tests that the findings should hold up fairly well.The Facts of the Experiment:My Build: At the time of the test my build was 17/21. I had 5 Power Draw, and 163 archery wpf. I had an effective armor weight of 5, so a negligible decrease in effective weapon proficiency.
My Equipment: I used a Masterworked Horn Bow (27 cut) and Masterworked Bodkins (4 pierce) for a raw 31 pierce damage. This is 1 more pierce than a vanilla Rus Bow and vanilla Bodkins, and 1 less pierce than a vanilla Long Bow and vanilla Bodkins. Therefore please note that my damage is probably around the mid range for archers who use Bodkins at this time (more powerful than most non-loomed bows, but a bit less powerful than the heirloomed 2-slot archers out there).
My Distance Interpretation: I told test subjects to stand by the dead tree centered in the pictures below (the one with bodies all around it; I affectionately refer to it now as "the murder tree"), and I would target body shots from the location you see me take my screenshots from. I know that these distances are arbitrary, but in the heat of battle I consider these to be rough guidelines of what constitutes practical 'short, medium, and long' shots.(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)My Findings:
Against Targets With 80+ HP:
Most hits to kill: 9 (Target: 80 hp, 72 body armor. Long distance shots)
Least hits to kill: 4 (Target: 87 hp, 54 body armor AND 85 hp 71 body armor. Occurred on short & mid distance shots)
Average hits to kill from short range: 5.3 (out of 9 total tests)
Average hits to kill from medium range: 5.5 (out of 8 total tests)
Average hits to kill from long range: 6.125 (out of 8 total tests)
Against Targets with 64-76 HP:
Most hits to kill: 7 (Target: 76 hp, 68 body armor. Long distance shots)
Least hits to kill: 3 (Target: 65 hp, 52 body armor. Short distance shots)
Average hits to kill from short range: 4.08 (out of 12 total tests)
Average hits to kill from medium range: 4 (out of 12 total tests)
Average hits to kill from long range: 4.25 (out of 12 total tests)
Against Targets with 62 or less HP: Note: A level 1 peasant was included in this round which may lower average hits to kill numbers slightly
Most hits to kill: 3 (Target: 55 hp, 46 body armor. Long distance shots)
Least hits to kill: 1 (Target: 38 hp, 9 body armor. Any distance shots)
Average hits to kill from short range: 1.57 (out of 7 total tests)
Average hits to kill from medium range: 1.4 (out of 5 total tests)
Average hits to kill from long range: 1.6 (out of 5 total tests)
(light armor tests need more work; not enough tests and peasant testing threw numbers. Without the peasant included tests would average 2 hits for short and medium range, 2.5 for long)My Conclusions:
More testing will need to be done now that I have 6 power draw. But ultimately I don't think that bodkins are quite as overpowered as people seem to say regarding the heavy armored tincans.
Bodkins will kill tin cans in about 5 or 6 hits on the average.
Bodkins will kill mid-heavy troops in about 4 hits on the average.
Bodkins will kill lighter troops in about 2-3 hits on the average.
Keep in mind there are going to be a lot of archers that use non heirloomed bows, or use cut type arrows, and in those cases their average hit-to-kill numbers will probably be from 1 to many hits higher on the average (esp. when dealing with tin cans). Similarly there will be heirloomed heavy power draw longbowmen who will probably bring the average hits to kill number down by 1 max (so maybe 4-5 for tin cans, 3 for mid-heavy, 2 for lighter).
Other hunches; general things I found interesting:
-hp mattered more than armor for survival
-distance didn't seem to make AS large a difference as I originally thought. Perhaps I wasn't far enough away on my 'long' tests
-If you are a standard infantry type with decent (50 ish) body armor you'll likely survive 4 hits from archers in general. It takes quite a bit of strength and armor to reliably survive 5 or more, so it probably isn't worth it.
-board shield w/ 600 hp survived 20 arrows. Low armor, but I did about 30 damage a shot. Shields rule basically for ranged (duh)
I'll see if I can update more when I have time.
E: I almost forgot: Thanks to everyone who gave a bit of time FOR SCIENCE!
Credits to test subjects:
Sageroth
Jeff
Captain_Insano_WCO
Passion
Assassino_Extremo
Sedurut
Wolfgang
Blade
Voester
Morr
Gzack
Tom_Cruise
Ninja_blood
Wintersong
Ninja_djnipsy
Grandpa Joe Has altheimers (thanks for skewing the results you peasant jerk!)
but your leaving out the biggest part tho. a headshot kills anyone in 1 hit no matter what armorNot if that person is a level 35 full str build with 15 IF and a x3 loomed Armet.
I got the impression that you were sayin that he couldnt do it because of weight/movement restrictions.
Hence i said he could, if he wanted to.
Is it practial? No
Can he do it? Sure
And thats why it shouldnt be removed, cause if i want to do it i can.
How about this, jumplashing is fun!
I play this game because it's fun to be swordsmen, there are so many techniques and different approaches.
Also about archery, I believe that Kafein hit the spot when he talked about archery from his perspective as a cav. When you finally, somehow approach the archer of course you should kill him. I can't throw my swords at you from distance I only can fight when I'm close enough. Why should archery or any other ranged class have the luxury to be good both at distance and in close combat? Ranged classes should always have worse stats than non ranged. Archers not performing very well in general isn't fault of archery, it's about people who play archery being bad players in general.
but your leaving out the biggest part tho. a headshot kills anyone in 1 hit no matter what armor
Great suggestion.
No, really.
It's possible to kill all enemy team as 1 level peasant with stone in hand.
I am not talking about chances, just about possibility
It's possible to parry all hits with bare hands.
I am not talking about chances, just about possibility
It's possible to marry C.H.A.D.Z.
I am not talking about chances, just about possibility
TBH Xant even in your video Achilles have a pivot. Not just jump, slash-block-slash, then land.
but your leaving out the biggest part tho. a headshot kills anyone in 1 hit no matter what armorHeadshot from an archer will usually 1-hit kill, but if you are far enough away it will just do a good dent. It is also much harder to headshot someone from range than it is to hit them in the head with a swing, so I personally don't think this is too much of a problem.
@Xant: If you consider film fights as realistic I'm out of this thread :rolleyes:
I neither said that this wasn't possible nor that he didn't do it himself ;)
It is the same about jumping in plate with heavy weapons etc.
It is possible, but noone would do it in a realfight due to the big danger that it brings.
"This isn't close to what a decent horseman has to pay for a very squishy and huge (read arrows will hit) horse, and even more when the horse is easier to hit and a little more resistant."
Once again, people are yet to realize the intentions towards cavalry from the mod creator. It was supposed to be a "prestige class" due to the simple fact that it is the biggest powerhouse in this mod/game and the biggest tide-turner. A decent cav/lancer p.e. can easily achieve ridiculous amounts of kills even using the "squishy and huge horse" you kindly mention, (take Leed, or Tommy as an example). And the reason behind the increased cost of the mounts prices it's only a measure to counter the huge numbers of cavalry constantly at the game, making it simply unplayable, specially with the number of deser/plains maps on rotation now.
You can imagine 30+ players with a 1 hit kill ability every few seconds and the ability of knocking down opponents while dealing damage as they please.
Also add the fact that it's easier with medium/high ping players to hit the rider than the bugged mount, cause it's immense the amount of arrows that pass by that amazing animal or that every cav rider can bump hit anyone trying to block (yes, sadly even lancers can do it, even if the lance has already passed the target).
Even so this measure wasn't enough, since market allows people to make easily lots of money by either honest trades or scamming like a boss.
Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.Finally someone who explained this properly. I'm gonna quote this whenever I can.
Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.
The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.
The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.
No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.
What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).
Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.
That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).
tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.
Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.
Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.
The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.
The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.
No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.
What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).
Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.
That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).
tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:
1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".
This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:
well i have 8 pd and 7 wm, mw rus bow & mw bodkins and i can kill a guy who is equipped with 3x heirloomed transitional armour & 3x heirloomed gilded hourglass gauntlets+ 6 IF with 2-3 shots... ^^
well i have 8 pd and 7 wm, mw rus bow & mw bodkins and i can kill a guy who is equipped with 3x heirloomed transitional armour & 3x heirloomed gilded hourglass gauntlets+ 6 IF with 2-3 shots... ^^
Finally sb who admits it.
I'd love to see some sort of evidence/extended testing from someone with 8 PD and MW Rus/bodkins, because as I said before I averaged between 5 - 6 hits on high HP/tin can type players with my MW horn & MW Bodkins. Taking someone with 85 hp (30 str 10 if) and high end armor that's between 14-17 damage per shot with my raw 31 pierce damage and 5 PD.
To 2-3 shot those same targets consistently you'd need to be doing a whopping 28.3-37.5 damage per shot. Are you telling me that the +4 pierce and your +3 PD compared to my build is going to account for more than double the damage per shot?
I call bullshit. MW Rus Bow & MW Bodkins is not going to consistently 2-3 shot tin-cans unless they are agi builds wearing heavy armor.
Look at all the noob cav we see lately, how many kills do they make ? Not that much.
Besides, it is correct that cav is the class with the best killing potential, but when you look at it closely, they can't really choose their kills. And that makes a lot of difference. Killing a lvl 3 peasant or killing that-2h-celebrity-that-killed-your-whole-team-last-round counts as 1 kill. There are very few things that will determine wether someone will probably die to cav or not : cav awareness, teamplay and weapon choice.
The peasant has usually no defense and will get lanced or bumped to death cheaply. One kill.
The uber-elite-2h has cav awareness, otherwise he wouldn't be that much elite. He has a good anti-cav defense weapon (jumpswings, GS lolstabs). And sometimes plays nearby teammates, sometimes not, but since he has a good weapon and awareness, the team support isn't needed. To kill that guy, a cav has to wait for an opening in the awareness, otherwise he will get lolstabbed. He also has to wait for the teammates (especially polearm users) to die or go somewhere else. Moreover, attacking when the 2h is occupied fighting inf is a gamble, as the risk of killing/bumping/hitting a teammate is very high, especially with "tornado fighters". And finally, he is forced to use the couched lance and all its hazards since a decent armor is enough to protect the 2h from a onehit lance poke (and hitting that 2h twice will be even more difficult). If the cav manages to kill that beast somehow, the holy scoreboard says the same. One kill.
No wonder those very good shiedless infantry are usually killed by ranged, as all the other classes have much more trouble doing it.
What I'm trying to say is that while cav do a lot of kills, most of them aren't valuable at all. I can safely assume that 70% of cav kills are unaware people. The rest are fail jumpswings, ranged missing the last-second-headshot, other cav or footmen outnumbered by cav. Those people with poor cav awareness usually aren't good in what they do, cav awareness is a sign of battle mode experience (thus general fighting experience as well).
Ranged, on the other side of the spectrum, can choose their targets in a much larger pool. The differences between the peasant and the uber-2h from an archer point of view are much lesser than from a cav pov (unlike cav in the majority of cases, ranged don't die when they miss). Yet one will turn the tide of the battle, and the other will not.
That's why I don't think cav do turn the tide of battles more than any other classes. Elite cavs turn the tide of battles just as elite inf or elite ranged. Average cav ? Nope. They die trying to charge a lone archer (it takes a decent horseman to kill the logically weakest possible aware target) or doing other things that seem realistic but aren't effective. It's only when they realise they are disguised ninjas on horses they start making kills (yet not the "useful" kills).
tl:dr Archers don't make lots of kills but all their arrows (hitting or not) are useful for the team. The K/D ratio doesn't mean anything compared to the W/L ratio.
Announce when you want to do tests again and I will show up if I can :) So we can check it out whether it's possible to do it most of the time or not
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:
1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".
This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:
If you're getting killed by archers too much perhaps you should:
1.) Stop making ridiculous 30/9 STR builds with plate armor. Shooting high ATH players who can change directions on a dime is much harder than shooting a slow STR build, no matter the range.
2.) Get a shield (no shit).
3.) Get off your horse or avoid archers. Cav are public enemy #1 for archers, and shooting them off their horses gives me a semi.
4.) Play as a team. If you're charging head-first into an archer nest at the start of the round maybe you need to re-think your "tactics".
This has been a public service announcement by your friendly neighborhood pussy archer. :mrgreen:
I'll do that if you get some melee weapon profiency, stop running and use a real 1 or 2 slot weapon.
this is totaly false robinlongstride 3 shot me im level 33 7 iron flesh 21 strength! he kill me with a horn +3 bow and bobkin +3 so this is totaly false
At your tests, was your target standing still?
Yep, no speed bonus at all. At least that's how i read it.
Its not slighlty more, its alot more...
Bodkins will kill tin cans in about 5 or 6 hits on the average.it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a tincan
Bodkins will kill mid-heavy troops in about 4 hits on the average.
Bodkins will kill lighter troops in about 2-3 hits on the average.
it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a tincan
it takes me 3-4 hits to kill a medium troop
it takes me 2-3 hits to kill a lightyl armored guy
it takes me 1 hit to kill an unarmored guy.
This is with a MW danish great with 5 PS which I know isn't massive, but its still a decent amount.
Considering you are standing in the back lobbing arrows over a distance, this seems a tad unfair.
This is a low risk, medium-high reward class.
it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a tincan
it takes me 3-4 hits to kill a medium troop
it takes me 2-3 hits to kill a lightyl armored guy
it takes me 1 hit to kill an unarmored guy.
This is with a MW danish great with 5 PS which I know isn't massive, but its still a decent amount.
Considering you are standing in the back lobbing arrows over a distance, this seems a tad unfair.
This is a low risk, medium-high reward class.
the archers who know how to build them can't really fail.
it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a tincan
it takes me 3-4 hits to kill a medium troop
it takes me 2-3 hits to kill a lightyl armored guy
it takes me 1 hit to kill an unarmored guy.
This is with a MW danish great with 5 PS which I know isn't massive, but its still a decent amount.
Considering you are standing in the back lobbing arrows over a distance, this seems a tad unfair.
This is a low risk, medium-high reward class.
Oh and not to mention that my opponents CAN block my attacks and that I have to block their attacks as well. Much higher risk than archers are.
Everytime I get hit by an archer with rus/bodkins I loose from 20% up to 40% of my health (59) from speed bonus + pierce in a lordly transitional and no other armour heirlooms + mail gauntlets. Headshots are well over 50%, usually something like making me suspectible to being killed by a peasant with a staff. As an archer you will benefit a lot more from speed bonus because the enemy is probably moving relatively to your position, because your team is somewhere over there too.
Even with a 21/18 build, if I get into a 2v1 situation by best bet is to mingle between enemies looking for openings and otherwise I'm fucked if those 2 guys aren't complete retards. I can't run away like an archer can even in my medium-light armour.
Not to mention if archers are camping roofs there is completely nothing I can do about it, it doesn't even have to be a roof - just a defensible spot. No other class can completely shut down all options like that.
Archers stun, this really makes little sense when compared to how a hit from a 1.2m blade doesn't stop you from moving a second but an arrow does. In a 2v2 situation where one team is made up of 2melee guys and the other is an archer + any melee - all it takes for the archers side is to win is for his teammate to backpedal. Not to mention that 2 archers can easily benefit much more from teamwork than most classes.
I think I remember that at some point I read a post that in the future archery damage will be defined by bow damage and then arrows, which won't make you have more than 30 fucking pierce damage from a low risk weapon all over the map.
And let me mention roof campers one more time - they shut down most options on some maps - completely keeping you from fighting in a certain spot all the while being completely immune to any danger and being a huge danger themselves.
the archers who know how to build them can't really fail.
Hitting arrows is a lot easier than hitting melee strike against anyone who has any experience at this game, archery is like clicking moving icons while melee actually requires you to adapt to your enemy and use actual finesee which isn't comparable to that of every fps ever.
I've played 2 low gens of an archer with:Yea well try and do the same with non loomed gear, loosing 5 base damage+ shooting speed and accuracy will seriously change your experience.
MW Horn + MW Tatars + Mace
MW Rus + MW Tatars + Hammer
and that was actually BEFORE the full pierce damage "buff"
I finished both generations with a k/d of about 3, let's not even mention sieges.
On the other hand a melee class fully loomed with +14 armor from gloves and torso armor... :rolleyes:Armor looms are the silliest thing still in c-RPG. +14 armor from looms, c'mon.. it'd be balanced if it was a total of +7 from gloves and armor. Still a huge goddamn bonus but it wouldn't turn you into a Panzer tank.
Armor looms are the silliest thing still in c-RPG. +14 armor from looms, c'mon.. it'd be balanced if it was a total of +7 from gloves and armor. Still a huge goddamn bonus but it wouldn't turn you into a Panzer tank.Agreed. And as ToD pointed out in another thread, so is bow/quiver 'looms. Still archers whined when he made a suggestion to change it :rolleyes:
I agree, armour looms are abit over the top, could be changed to +1, +1 and +2.
I finished both generations with a k/d of about 3, let's not even mention sieges. I never had problems with awareness from either cav or inf because I didn't tunnel vision on one target (it's like an argument of "I'm bad - that's why we need buffs") and knew how to use the "view outfit" button.
I stopped playing an archer because I found the gameplay boring and withdrawn from the real action which is melee.
Also fuck defining by realism and don't state opinions as facts. A good or even a decent archer is better to be had on your team than a good or a decent anything else.
Armor looms are the silliest thing still in c-RPG. +14 armor from looms, c'mon.. it'd be balanced if it was a total of +7 from gloves and armor. Still a huge goddamn bonus but it wouldn't turn you into a Panzer tank.
What do you mean by k/d 3:1?
That you go out of a round with 3times more kills than deaths? If so, I have to agree it was and still is possible and actually quite easy IF you are a good archer^^
Regarding the KD, I played siege until about I could get 5pd and 130/140 wpf to use a horn bow with decent accuracy,
Rufio, what do you think is the average k/d-ratio of a footarcher and a foot 2h guy? Both above level > 25. The abominable archer must surely be at least on par or more likely be above the meager melee man, right?
To be honnest, I think the long bow needs an adjustment on arrow speed and just a small tweek anyways. Just drawing takes 2-3 seconds before you can fire. This adjustment to the bow could make it more usefull as it is virtually useless at its current time. Also, you would think that the most expensive bow with a painfull expence should be able to outshoot a skirmisher class/hornbow etc.
Archer without heirloom is much worse then archer full heirloomed.
2h, Pole without heirloom is much closer to 2h, Pole full loomed.
1h is in between both (heirlooms are more important then 2h/pole but less then archers).
Perhaps you should nerf archer-looms and buff gen1 archers instead.
Give every bow +2 Damage and remove damage bonus on arrows.
Make Arrow-Looms +1 +2 +2 ammo for example.
Archers are as strong as before but now they arent as different as before.
I dont want them nerfed i want them adjusted.
(exception is HA, but they are speed premium for damage).
I think it would be fair if every Powerstrike will kill 14 your effective wpf in melee profeciency. So with 163 wpf and 6 PS you'll have 79 effective wpf naked. As every archer.
After this add armor penalty
I think it's good idea to nerf STR crutchers a bit
That has nothing to do with what he said :|
I am offering 100k in gold to any non-archer main, that rolls an archer alt, and posts a positive kdr by reaching level 31.
I've played 2 low gens of an archer with:
MW Horn + MW Tatars + Mace
MW Rus + MW Tatars + Hammer
and that was actually BEFORE the full pierce damage "buff"
I finished both generations with a k/d of about 3, let's not even mention sieges. I never had problems with awareness from either cav or inf because I didn't tunnel vision on one target (it's like an argument of "I'm bad - that's why we need buffs") and knew how to use the "view outfit" button.
I stopped playing an archer because I found the gameplay boring and withdrawn from the real action which is melee.
Also fuck defining by realism and don't state opinions as facts. A good or even a decent archer is better to be had on your team than a good or a decent anything else.
^^Well said sir well said. Now let us all nerf longpikes some more please. Tired of these 7 athletes whirlwind tin can tornadoes
If an archer with 6pd could check at what amount of armor the target has that bodkins are more effective it would be nice. Especially if they had MW bodkins and MW tartars (or can borrow). Also do the test with vanilla of both.From my observation generally anyone in mail or above use bodkins. Anyone below use tartars or other cut arrows. Devs have balanced it pretty sensibly.
Most hits to kill: 3 (Target: 55 hp, 46 body armor. Long distance shots)
I think this testing was done with targets with way too much health. A 15 STR char with 0 IF has 50 hp. a 21 STR char with 5 IF has 66 hp and 70 hp if 7 IF. I consider that to be extremely much IF really. If going 24 STR with 8 IF one has 75 hp. and I would say this is like going crazy on getting as much hp as possible. About 95 % of the people playing in the server has between 35 and 60 hp. Most people also have between 0 and 50 armor.
Archery is fine if you disagree learn how to play and...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EEyk-iohLw&feature=related
Archery is suppose to do a bit of dammage, on the account it is all we have for our offence, and defence. shooting shielders is insane now, the forcefield they have is messed up. How are archers suppose to defend them selfs against shielders? where is the balance in that when its inpossible to shoot them from the front, and if they know your shooting at them, they always aim towards you, and go your way, naturaly. People complain about archers running away when thats our last defence, and happens what we are good at, Shielders are one of those reasons why archers run the fuck away, when they come waltsing around with shields that take half of your arrows to distroy.
after hitting lvl 25 you are a killing machine. (if you have the skill, where the strategy and positioning skills are the most important I'd say. any noob can have good aim) And as I have mentioned earlier archery don't need a nerf.