Author Topic: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth  (Read 14398 times)

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Offline Vibe

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2011, 02:07:31 pm »
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But ultimately I don't think that bodkins are quite as overpowered as people seem to say regarding the heavy armored tincans. 

No,

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Offline MrShine

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2011, 02:26:57 pm »
+1
Hello, thanks for all the positive feedback!

Some responses:
The most important is PD- your build is, ekhm, atypical (17?) and ineffective(imho).
The best/OP archers have a (absolute minimum) >+6 PD (exception is  HA, but they are  speed premium for damage).
My lvl 30 build is 18/21 this gen, so I am getting 6 PD.  The thought came to me as I was close to hitting 30 and figured it might be useful to check the damage I am doing now, and then see how much it really changes when I go to 6 PD.  I included the fact I had 17 strength because I saw a damage algorithm from Paul which made it appear that raw strength has a slight impact on arrow damage.

Using bodkin arrows though I think having 5 PD seems to be working just fine.  It will be interested to see how much of a true change in average number of hits I will get when I hit 6 PD.  I have a hunch that I might decrease the min/max numbers of hits it takes per kill, but I bet averages won't drop too terribly much.

What I've noticed is that Rus Bow and Longbow tends to 2hit while other bows are a lot less threatening.. Probably something to do with the PD requirements, too.
As I mentioned I am using MW Bodkins & MW Horn Bow, which does 1 damage more than a vanilla rus bow.  So the averages I posted regarding hits -> kill  will likely translate for most Rus Bow users, however of course someone with a MW Rus & Bodkins will do more damage.  I can't see the average hits to kill for mid-heavy people going from 4 to 2, but I could see it being closer to 3, with the occasional 2 shot. Of course this is just speculation.

I appreciate the time you took to do this test and hats off to you for this...Thanks! :)
...Also u must realise most people are bothered by sheer ammount of ranged on the servers not individuals or individual damage, yes i can sucessfully dodge one archer shooting at me but 5 or more no way.

I agree, you'll have a hard time dodging 5 archers.  But does that mean archery needs to be nerfed to make it possible for you to survive 5 archers shooting at you?  I don't think so - since this is a team game that means there are 5 archers who are NOT shooting at 4 of your teammates.  I don't think the game should be balanced around 1v1 paper scissors rock, but it does need to take that sort of balance into consideration.  In melee 2 teammates who know what they are doing should take down any other melee player in probably 90%+ of all instances, provided they are working together effectively.

so basicly its not op that u can ~3~4 shot people with a hit and run build like yours, witch you will outrun most people with in archer gear. and now be a nice little archer and take 7+ pd like the moar dedicated real archers and see how u will rofl about,
The biggest complaints I've heard were from people claiming that bodkin arrows needed to be reverted to cut, and discussion that the lower tiered bows became too powerful with pierce damage.  I started with the lowest possible PD needed for my bow, to see how much truth there was to these claims.  You can see the results, which I think prove that a) a 15/24 hornbow archer can be effective, and b) a 15/24 hornbow archer will probably average between 3-5 hits to kill someone.

I think that longbow users are actually doing quite similar damage to what they were doing pre-bodkin patch, since they always had pierce.   In fact I would be willing to bet that the highest PD longbowmen will only ever get their average down to something like 2-3 hits, but will have to sacrifice a bunch of accuracy to attain that.  I think 2-4 hit average is a much more realistic total for someone with 7 or 8 PD and a MW longbow.

Also remember that while my build can "run 'n gun" I'm not going to be close to 100% accuracy per shot.  It is probably honestly closer to something like 35-40% in the midst of battle with people moving around in these middle range type situations.  So 3-4 hits will probably translate into 8 or 9 arrows.  I don't think bodkins deserve a huge nerf, but perhaps a very slight damage decrease for lower tier bows (followed by a longbow buff of some sort, and maybe a slight buff to non-bodkin arrows to make them more appealing) might not be a bad idea.

As an archer who runs around with a base 6PD (18 strength), Masterwork Bodkin arrows, Masterwork Longbow & 159 wpf I could quite happily help you with these tests if you wish. I am willing to jump onto a duel server and set up a similar distance and do a similar amount of tests.

I could probably collar Gisbert in to help as well, with his 7(?) PD, 173(?) wpf, Masterwork Longbow and Masterwork Bodkin arrows.

Also, on top of that, I am able to see specific hp levels (by percentage) due to being an admin and the "show player names cheat" so this could help give a more accurate representation of the exact damage each hit is doing, on average, at a specific distance, specific height, power draw, weapon prof etc etc. (I'm sure no one would mind the use of this in course of scientific experimentation that would benefit the community.)

From the top of my head, I have to say I do do a reasonable amount of damage, but most of my kills come from close range kiting of silly two handers. I normally kill medium armoured people (50 body armour) in three shots (unless they increase my speed bonus my jumping at me or running towards me/doing the idiot spin dance that we all know is completely ineffective)

So yes, in short, i'm quite happy to give a different view point on this as well.

That would be awesome!  By all means if you wanted to do research I'd welcome the additional info (you could post it wherever of course, but if you added  to this thread I could add it to OP data). 

One thing I did not do was test with a standard set of body armor, just because it was easier to grab people at random and record what they were currently wearing & their STR/IF totals.  Similarly I did not do enough (IMO) tests with more of the light-mid infantry, so my results are a bit weak there.  Again if you decide to do testing you are free to test whatever you want since finding specific builds or armor ranges will be much more challenging to just pull from random people :)

But this testing should be quite easy to recreate as long as the ranges are kept similar, and the data from the subject is all recorded.
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2011, 02:33:09 pm »
0

Standard values: (c-rpg)

armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.65
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.5
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.4

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 1.6
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 1.1
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 1.3

crpg penetration flag(applied modification for bows, crossbows and thrown)

armor_soak_factor_against_cut       = 0.78
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.6
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt     = 0.48

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut       = 0.96
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.36
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt     = 0.78


This is why hp is much better than armor for absorbing arrows.
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2011, 02:59:39 pm »
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QQ blah blah blah QQ...

Waiting for you to get bored of archery, go back to xbow, cav, 2h/polearms and start whining about archery :P

***

Also, even tho I think that archery is a bit too good atm I don't mind it. Even now on every archer that kills me I kill five so I'm quite satisfied with that ratio (I like to hunt friendly archers).

But I do mind noobs who come here and whine how archery is still underpowered and how they miss most of the shots and...

Bagge, danko, chico and even koldborn 80% of the time manage to hit me (hard) even if I dodge. How come they don't miss?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:06:06 pm by Leshma »

Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2011, 03:14:02 pm »
0
WARNING! THIS THREAD IS FUCKING LONG

Archery is for pussies.

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Offline MrShine

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2011, 03:24:59 pm »
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^ That's ultimately the TL;DR version :P
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2011, 03:50:38 pm »
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I don't think archery is the problem. Problem with balance of this mod lies in free wpf and effectiveness of pierce damage. Everything that seems OP has something to do with those two things.

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2011, 04:12:38 pm »
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WARNING! THIS THREAD IS FUCKING LONG
Archery is for pussies.

Naturally, coz pussies archers are OP:
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 04:15:01 pm by Liveon »

Offline Adamar

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2011, 04:50:45 pm »
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Proof! I want ^ in game!  :o

Offline MaHuD

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2011, 04:53:11 pm »
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She is actually on a horse as well.

Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2011, 05:06:31 pm »
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Hhmm....Nice test all in all, but I consider your long range as mid/short :D


Nice test though, but what does it help balancing archery?

You used only hornbow and 5 pd :/  Lots of archers have other bows and other stats and I for example can easily 2shot a tincan with my 7pd/8wm/mw longbow/mw bodkins ^^
Most archers are below lvl 32 and have a different kind of build, but still people like me count in the mind of all the whiners getting 2shot^^


By the way Rufio, everyone knows you are one of the guys who hate archers most, because everything you would like to see in such a game is man vs man melee battles. So please stop suggesting drawspeed or missilespeednerf or whatever comes into your mind as you have no real idea about archery and due to that you are no real help here  :lol:

Offline MrShine

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2011, 05:33:35 pm »
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You used only hornbow and 5 pd :/  Lots of archers have other bows and other stats and I for example can easily 2shot a tincan with my 7pd/8wm/mw longbow/mw bodkins ^^
Most archers are below lvl 32 and have a different kind of build, but still people like me count in the mind of all the whiners getting 2shot^^

Please don't take offense, but your post is the sort of thing that I feel can cause a lot of the confusion/misinformation with archery.

"easily 2 shot a tincan" with 7 PD MW longbow?  You might be 2 shotting people in battle who are already hurt, but there is no way that you will be consistently 2 shotting tin cans with a 37 raw pierce damage between a MW longbow & MW bodkins, when my 31 raw pierce damage averaged 5-6 hits per kill on the same tin cans.  If anything I can see the range being something like 2-5 hits, but by no means should you "easily" get a 2 hit kill.  Probably closer to 4 hits on average.  Especially if you consider my long range to be your mid/short.

But by all means you're welcome to do some testing as well and let us know what you find :)
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2011, 06:11:35 pm »
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Just one thing, do you realize that is possible to have 9/10 pd and 150 wpf at lvl 32/33?

That's just insane, both epic damage and decent accuracy. But archery doesn't have anything to do with that. It's free wpf and wm being useless.

Offline Gisbert_of_Thuringia

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 06:14:46 pm »
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Hhhmmm....I can 2 shot a guy in lordly transitional. Sometimes it's 3 and sometimes it's 2. Lordly transitional means 60body armour alone by the armour, gloves not counted (they always wore some^^)

And I remember taking 60% with a long long range shot of a lordly transitional guy with 1 shot.

Tincan has nonloomed about 60body armour, so it is possible for me and not very hard^^


But as already mentioned, not many have a lvl 32 full archer build

Offline Adamar

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Re: Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2011, 06:20:21 pm »
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Just one thing, do you realize that is possible to have 9/10 pd and 150 wpf at lvl 32/33?

That's just insane, both epic damage and decent accuracy. But archery doesn't have anything to do with that. It's free wpf and wm being useless.

That would make us archers even more hopeless in melee, like flowers ready for plucking.