Bodkins and Archery: An Inconvenient Truth

[MrShine]

Just one thing, do you realize that is possible to have 9/10 pd and 150 wpf at lvl 32/33?

That's just insane, both epic damage and decent accuracy. But archery doesn't have anything to do with that. It's free wpf and wm being useless.

One would think it works that way, but each point into power draw at those high levels decrease accuracy and (I believe) decrease draw speed.  So the 150 wpf that would normally be pretty accurate with 4-6 PD starts to be less effective.  Archers with 9+ (and I would argue 8+) have precision problems.   But as others have said infantry won't remember the 5 missed arrows, just the 1 that hit and hurt alot

[karasu]

I guess no one read my reply. 

Oh well, carry on the lobby-ism.

[Winterly]

Good job Mr. Shine!!

[MrShine]

Good job Mr. Shine!!

Thanks!  Also you reminded me: added credits to the OP 

[Taser]

Bravo. Nice job but as people have said more people go 8-10 PD rather than 5. I, myself, am a 5 PD archer. I may go to 6 since I'm only 23 or so atm but most people going archer seem to be going for high PD rather than the bare minimum for a horn or rus bow. So it may not actually change anyone's mind on whether archery is OP or not since they're focused on a particular build for archers.

I do applaud this though. Great stuff and if you ever need another archer for comparison, let me know and I'll help for comparison to a high powered archer.

[Rogue_Eagle]

I have 7PD and a MW rus bow and bodkins.

I don't 2 shot tincans. Usually they take about 3-4.

I can occasionally 2 shot the 36-40 chainmail armour types.

People complain about archers, people complain about cavalry, people complain about pure STR, people complain about swing spammers, people complain about shielders. If you want to just play 2h duels, why not go native and let the rest of us play crpg? I play crpg because I got bored of the lack of control I had over chars in native. All these different types of classes are what make crpg fun to play, it seems that the 2handers that whine the loudest get archery nerfed again and again, ok a couple of nerfs were needed back in the day, but right now I think it's in a good place. A horse can run through an archer no problem. Everything counters something. Perhaps those that complain need to be a bit more flexible and either adapt their char or make a new one that can counter archers rather than run here and complain.

[Leshma]

One would think it works that way, but each point into power draw at those high levels decrease accuracy and (I believe) decrease draw speed.  So the 150 wpf that would normally be pretty accurate with 4-6 PD starts to be less effective.  Archers with 9+ (and I would argue 8+) have precision problems.   But as others have said infantry won't remember the 5 missed arrows, just the 1 that hit and hurt alot

That's true.

But (there's always but), such build shouldn't be precise at all just like heavy STR melee build shouldn't be able to stand against moderately AGI based build in terms of attack speed like now is the case.

[Rogue_Eagle]

One would think it works that way, but each point into power draw at those high levels decrease accuracy and (I believe) decrease draw speed.  So the 150 wpf that would normally be pretty accurate with 4-6 PD starts to be less effective.  Archers with 9+ (and I would argue 8+) have precision problems.   But as others have said infantry won't remember the 5 missed arrows, just the 1 that hit and hurt alot

I thought they got rid of that PD penalty thing.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I guess no one read my reply. 

Oh well, carry on the lobby-ism.

Ofcourse noone cares about your post, because you suggested a neutral view on classes     How dare you? That community is not capable of being neutral 

People complain about archers, people complain about cavalry, people complain about pure STR, people complain about swing spammers, people complain about shielders. If you want to just play 2h duels, why not go native and let the rest of us play crpg? I play crpg because I got bored of the lack of control I had over chars in native. All these different types of classes are what make crpg fun to play, it seems that the 2handers that whine the loudest get archery nerfed again and again, ok a couple of nerfs were needed back in the day, but right now I think it's in a good place. A horse can run through an archer no problem. Everything counters something. Perhaps those that complain need to be a bit more flexible and either adapt their char or make a new one that can counter archers rather than run here and complain.

This!

[Leshma]

Ofcourse noone cares about your post, because you suggested a neutral view on classes     How dare you? That community is not capable of being neutral 

Nope, he always tries to buff the class he's currently rolling and is never willing to admit it. Typical hypocrite.

[Kafein]

People forget that this is a War simulator. Not a God Complex simulator. You're expected to kill and die. If you're getting killed too much by a certain class, adapt. I don't see Cooties (p.e.) complaining about it, and he still tops scores constantly while being a Boromir, with a shield on his back.

Wars were won with tactics, shieldwalls, ranged waves, timed cavalry support, and engineered equipment. Not by Boromirs.

Okay.

While being an archer in this mod, specially now, you're already gimped by the simple fact that the jump shooting was removed, but the jump swinging is still here, even though no one on his perfect mind would jump and swing heavy metal weaponry to try and hit something, this isn't Hollywood. And this "feature" was a great help against cav specially.

Besides that I personally think that while nocking an arrow while jumping seems more awkward than swinging a piece of metal while jumping, archers can still kite allright. They lost the ability to magically shoot over shields, which seems okay to me (shields countering archers). On the "help against cav" part, it's still possible to dodge without jumping and shoot in the horse or rider. Anyway, a horseman able enough to come into melee range of an archer with his horse/himself alive (more on this later) already has merit for that and shouldn't have too much additionnal trouble for hitting the archer.

Also add the fact that a simple hit from an arbalest/lance/2hCav/1hCav/poleaxes/2handers is enough to kill a dedicated archer.

It usually is but not always. The main problem being that most people die before this comes into the equation.

Sure they don't wear expensive armor and expensive lightsabers, but if you keep in mind the ultimate truth that 95% of the time, when a round ends the bodkin stacks are repair (350+ each), adding a bow for almost 700, and a side weapon if you have a build like that (like mine, and tenne p.e.) adding more 500+, and still having in mind how squishy an archer is even paying hard for it, you might start seeing things differently.

This isn't close to what a decent horseman has to pay for a very squishy and huge (read arrows will hit) horse, and even more when the horse is easier to hit and a little more resistant.

Before whining, put yourself in a Neutral position, and reflect about every single fact weighting in the final formula.

This formula is much more complex than what many people tend to beleive. The main advantage of archer is the range (quite a dull sentence there). It's very complicated to estimate the average impact of this. However, it shouldn't be forgotten. Archers are defended against cav and inf because especially at very close range, bows are deadly weapons. The best way to kill an archer remains stealth, for both cav and inf, because when an archer spots someone approaching, he can immediatly react and shoot at this opponent, or run away.

In the case of cav, one of the most suicidal things to do is heading towards an aware (or defended, or not close enough to something you can hide behind) archer, as the speed bonus will increase the arrow damage, and the rate of fire makes the time window for "safe" attacking very short (you have to stay very close to the archer in order to maximise the distance yet still be able to reach him before he shoots again, a last second shot is a sure headshot).

This extremely good, ranged defense gives the class big advantages. The raw stats shouldn't be expected to be as high as those of classes that actually have to take much more risks and be the target of much more threats.

People complain about archers, people complain about cavalry, people complain about pure STR, people complain about swing spammers, people complain about shielders. If you want to just play 2h duels, why not go native and let the rest of us play crpg? I play crpg because I got bored of the lack of control I had over chars in native. All these different types of classes are what make crpg fun to play, it seems that the 2handers that whine the loudest get archery nerfed again and again, ok a couple of nerfs were needed back in the day, but right now I think it's in a good place. A horse can run through an archer no problem. Everything counters something. Perhaps those that complain need to be a bit more flexible and either adapt their char or make a new one that can counter archers rather than run here and complain.

I don't get why all the other classes should adapt to archers while archers are sitting somewhere on a roof chanting "Stop whining".

[Leshma]

Throwers can jump while throw as well...

It's realism argument actually, xbowmen and archers can't because they have to be precise and there aren't any archers who would jump kite IRL. But a person needs a functional brain to get that and sadly some of our forum comrades don't fit the reqs...

Seriously don't take karasu's posting about balance seriously. He cried so hard against archery when he was playing 2h and was actually supporting removal of jump kite. But suddenly (khm khm) he thinks it's unfair... oh my!

[BlueKnight]

Maybe I haven't been doing any tests depending on how many arrows kill, but I have noticed that shot deals more dmg than hit in melee ( ofc despite left swings of 1h ).

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

It's realism argument actually, xbowmen and archers can't because they have to be precise and there aren't any archers who would jump kite IRL. But a person needs a functional brain to get that and sadly some of our forum comrades don't fit the reqs...

So a guy with plate and a big sword would jumpkill in reallife?      

Nope, he always tries to buff the class he's currently rolling and is never willing to admit it. Typical hypocrite.

He doesn't say anything about buffing a class.
An he is right, there are guy never complaining about classes, so why do some people have to complain about certain classes every day? ;)

This formula is much more complex than what many people tend to beleive. The main advantage of archer is the range (quite a dull sentence there). It's very complicated to estimate the average impact of this. However, it shouldn't be forgotten. Archers are defended against cav and inf because especially at very close range, bows are deadly weapons. The best way to kill an archer remains stealth, for both cav and inf, because when an archer spots someone approaching, he can immediatly react and shoot at this opponent, or run away.

In the case of cav, one of the most suicidal things to do is heading towards an aware (or defended, or not close enough to something you can hide behind) archer, as the speed bonus will increase the arrow damage, and the rate of fire makes the time window for "safe" attacking very short (you have to stay very close to the archer in order to maximise the distance yet still be able to reach him before he shoots again, a last second shot is a sure headshot).

This extremely good, ranged defense gives the class big advantages. The raw stats shouldn't be expected to be as high as those of classes that actually have to take much more risks and be the target of much more threats.

So you say other archers are in less danger and less threatened or targeted by players than other classes? Ever played on servers?^^

It's funny how so many people always say "oh it's so easy as an archer to defend yourself against incoming cav". "It is so easy to headshot a horseguy who trys to kill you."

Blablabla, play an archer for a while and we speak again.

Tell me how I shall draw my bow while constantly getting bumped or slashed by a horseman that trys to kill me. Maybe I'm such a noobarcher after 8 gens and lvl 32 that I can learn something from you guys, as you seem to be the most skilled archers in this game

[BlueKnight]

Also add the fact that a simple hit from an arbalest/lance/2hCav/1hCav/poleaxes/2handers is enough to kill a dedicated archer.

Sure they don't wear expensive armor and expensive lightsabers, but if you keep in mind the ultimate truth that 95% of the time, when a round ends the bodkin stacks are repair (350+ each), adding a bow for almost 700, and a side weapon if you have a build like that (like mine, and tenne p.e.) adding more 500+, and still having in mind how squishy an archer is even paying hard for it, you might start seeing things differently.

Just wanted to say that I have been lancing archers a lot and I was surprised that they were getting hit with the lance, survived and then blocking everything with hammer downblock. What is more, I couldn't even bump them sometimes because it's not that hard to jump and avoid a horsie if you have 7 ath and nearly no armour on you.

About upkeep. Mind the guy who is wearing good armour ( around 600 to even 1300 for transitional ), good gloves 300 - 500, boots around 200-300, head armour 300-400, weapon 800-1300, sometimes horsie for 1500+ if he wants his horse to survive 2 arrows and die after 3rd. I just wanted to say that an average upkeep for that guy might be FUCKING HUGE!

Archers save their cash on armour, melee weapon, head armour, gloves and boots. I had an archer alt and I was using rly good eq for archers and with x1 for 90% of the time I still managed to have a stable amount of bucks in my pocket.

What is funny is that when 40 % of life is gone by arrow, your battle usefulness is lowered. Your chances of surviving some kind of gangbang are down to eeeee... they are low. And there are ofc some archers that manage to kill 6-7 guys in 1 round as an archer. I think it's a bit too much as for the support class. Even shielders get fucked by some archers trcks like holding shot and spinning with shielder from the distance of 10cm.

Upkeep isn't that high for archers, team usefulness is pretty huge, because you don't need to stay close to the enemy to deal him as much dmg as dedicated melee would do. Also I see a lot of archers dying after 2 hits ( I die after 2-3 ) it means that they survive enough even in shit-armour. Ranged needs to get balanced because there is something wrong. It requires a change for balance not for some kind of truth. Archers would be skilled if they had no aiming tools ^^ even if sb placed something on his screen to see where he is aiming, still the shrinking and stretching aiming tools would require proper timing. It is probably impossible to delete or change archers' aiming tools in any way, because they can always change the textures so they would have aiming tools again...

BTW Karasu I remember you topping the charts as an archer with bodkin and Rusbow. 5 of 6 of my deaths were because of ranged that map... and you were 1-hitting the targets that got hit earlier and 2-hitting the med-armoured fresh guys...

I have another idea of balancing archers. I suggest a new chrushthrough formula that would be based on the weight of the weapon, str and ps and length. it would allow the flamberge to crushthrough the archer's hammer It is funny because 1 of those archers can just keep beckpedalling and blocking a guy with flamberge untill he get's shot by another archer, ofc if it turned out that the archer can't escape from the flamberger. New crushthrough formula would balance the 0 slot weapon blocking. It would be possible to block some 1h swords but not all of the 2h and polearms.

I need to wash the dishes, btw I like whining about the archers.