cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Gawin on July 12, 2011, 04:48:58 am

Title: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 12, 2011, 04:48:58 am
Dear chadz,

      My name is Fallen_Gawin and i would like to ask you why did you destroy archery? If you did not want archerey in this game why did you put it in? Every time you nerf archery my fellow clan-mates had to work VERY hard to make archery even worth playing. Archery was fine before the last few patches, but now you messed it up so badly that it would take more than 12 shots to kill a medium armoured person. I do not think that this is historicly correct, for instance English longbow men could 1-2 shot a plated knight 50 feet away, and thus why should not our own archers be able to this? I am not saying make archery soo over powered like that, but atleast make it playable to say 7-8 shot a plated knight, and if the two-handed spammers complain about archers why do they not just become shielders and make a tactic to fight against archery? Such as using THROWING WEAPONS (which you buffed up like crazy) when they chase us they could 1 hit most of us because of light amour, but NO! The "two handed spammers" are like little kids who whine about everything if they lose, and you are like their parents "bending the rules" to make them win. Why not make them create their own tactics to deal with archers instead of "whining to their parents" (you and other admins)? Like my clanmates they worked many hours to perfect "archery tactics" to fight against infintry, and even after many nerfs we never ONCE complained about how horrible archery was, but instead we took it like mature human beings and did something about it instead of "whining to our parents", but now archerey is so horrible that we will probably have to go back to the drawing box and it would probably take 1-2 months to make archery playable, but then the "two handed spammers" would whine again and thus make you nerf it again and again and again.

This message was not made to insult you or any other admins, This is just a message to state the facts about how c-rpg people are like.

                                                                                                       A Fallen player of this game,
                                                                                                                        Gawin
p.s. im posting this here because i cannot p.m. chadz
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 12, 2011, 05:02:42 am
I like archery now though... I think the change is awesome. I don't see the big deal everyone is making.
Besides, they didn't change your damage at all. However, they did fix the retarded broken damage bug that happened when the bigger patch went live lol.
Gravity bonus & speed bonus for archery is actually bigger now then before. Plus archery is more accurate now! I still consider this a buff at the end of the day.

Everybody
does more normalized damage now, it is less randomized. That was a change across the board. Arrows won't glance anymore (ever shot at goretooth? Only longbows and headshots didn't glance.). At the same time, it now takes everybody a hit or more to kill someone. I think this change was really good.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on July 12, 2011, 05:43:59 am
I agree.  It feels like archery is not wanted at all.  I'm not asking for realism, but I'm a real life archer and I can tell you that with our low power hunting bows (60 lbs) we get 300 feet per second.  Even at 300 fps you can kill a deer dead in its tracks.  I have friends that can shoot your eye out at 100 yards (I never shoot over 40 yards myself.)  We shot a metal lawn trailer for fun.  The arrow went through the front steel side and exited out the back steel tailgate from 35 yards.

IRL the long bow was OP and it was a killing machine until technology caught up.  Its sole purpose was to thin the crowd and affect morale.  Todays armor has been technologically improved and can most likely stop the long bows super arrow, but back then damage was done. 

I know a lot of people whine about archery not being realistic, but how many men fought with 8 arrows hanging out of thier body.  This is a game and some things can't be realistic.  If archers, not just one or two but several, consistently topped the charts then ok nerf archery...this isn't the case though as according to the stats it looks like only one archer is even in the top 75.

Today I put 6 bodkins from a mw horn bow into a guy wearing light strange armor, before he finally ran out of range.

I put 6 more in a crossbowman dressed in a brynie before he died.

I can't see my arrows flight path or hear it hit.

On the other hand aren't the following things impossible IRL and possibly unbalanced in game mechanics;

1. I was one shotted by a jarid, which seems fair until you consider I had just spawned in BFE.  Jarids that go 50 miles at 4756 mph (or how about  50 km at 2487 km/h)??????  There is no way you can throw something faster than an arrow can travel.

2.  Probably lag, but I see axes coming, dodge, and they seem to curve into me.

3.  Men in heavy armor 20 feet away jump as I release my arrow and still manage to slash my face in half before the arrow leaves the bow.

Plenty more but I'll stop.

The game also seems to have sped up, but that may be because I play on a laptop and have never used a mouse with the wasd keys...I've just started trying to train myself how to play with the mouse and my muscle memory isn't there yet so the picture is jittery and my reactions are slowed.

Anyway giving in to the whining only causes more whining.  I'm not asking for a change, you will change what you want when you want, after all this is your house.  Its just the update/patch had not even been Dl'ed yet and it seemed people were already whining that the archery nerf wasn't big enough.  The only constructive comments you received came from archers themselves who aknowledged  a bug and gave specific feedback.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 12, 2011, 06:03:14 am
I like archery now though... I think the change is awesome. I don't see the big deal everyone is making.
Besides, they didn't change your damage at all. However, they did fix the retarded broken damage bug that happened when the bigger patch went live lol.
Gravity bonus & speed bonus for archery is actually bigger now then before. Plus archery is more accurate now! I still consider this a buff at the end of the day.

Everybody
does more normalized damage now, it is less randomized. That was a change across the board. Arrows won't glance anymore (ever shot at goretooth? Only longbows and headshots didn't glance.). At the same time, it now takes everybody a hit or more to kill someone. I think this change was really good.

Actually you are wrong, the lowered shoot speed and armor changes make arrows do about half as much damage as before unless someone is compeltely naked.  I am getting shot by guys with 8 pd and a mw longbow from 10 feet away and it only takes 25% of my health where before it would take 45-55% witht he same armor.  Also, arrows incredibly easy to dodge, I switch to my melee armor (no shield) and I can rack up a bunch of kills just going after archers.  Xbows, need to be slightly wary adn throwers you need to be really cautious of as they do crazy damage and can throw 3 items in the time 1 archer can shoot 1 arrow and are accurate to almost the same range as an archer.  Might respec into xbow/2her until they eventually fix this then respec back to archer once its clear how unbalanced archery has become to all other ranged classes.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Everkistus on July 12, 2011, 06:08:21 am
Sadly, I must agree. After testing this out a bit yesterday (MW horn bow, MW bodkins, PD 8), I'd say archer is underpowered compared to xbow and throwing at the moment. The damage is too low.

For the record, I truly test these things. Compared against an alt with arbalest and 150 WPF in xbow, and thrower + various throwing weapons with 12 PT.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 12, 2011, 06:09:32 am
if only chadz will read this maybe he/she will understand and fix it
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: PhantomZero on July 12, 2011, 06:16:49 am
I agree.  It feels like archery is not wanted at all.  I'm not asking for realism, but I'm a real life archer and I can tell you that with our low power hunting bows (60 lbs) we get 300 feet per second.  Even at 300 fps you can kill a deer dead in its tracks.  I have friends that can shoot your eye out at 100 yards (I never shoot over 40 yards myself.)  We shot a metal lawn trailer for fun.  The arrow went through the front steel side and exited out the back steel tailgate from 35 yards.


There is a huge difference between shooting a "low power hunting bow" from 2000 made from composites and nylon and a hunting bow made from wood and string from the 1000s. I have to imagine your bow is a compound hunting bow, which definitely can shoot through the tough reinforced steel of a lawn mower and the steel tailgate. Where the hell do you get a lawnmower made of solid steel anyways, that thing must chug gasoline like an alcoholic.

Excuse me if I don't believe a couple of "real life" archers over experimentation and science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Christo on July 12, 2011, 06:19:20 am
Excuse me if I don't believe a couple of "real life" archers over experimentation and science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

NOT
THIS
VIDEO
AGAIN.
(it's giving me nightmares.)  :mrgreen:
Seriously. I'm sick of those guys who tell how real it is.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 12, 2011, 06:35:05 am
Get your realism out of my game balance thread.

Shoo.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Joxer on July 12, 2011, 06:39:22 am
There is a huge difference between shooting a "low power hunting bow" from 2000 made from composites and nylon and a hunting bow made from wood and string from the 1000s. I have to imagine your bow is a compound hunting bow, which definitely can shoot through the tough reinforced steel of a lawn mower and the steel tailgate. Where the hell do you get a lawnmower made of solid steel anyways, that thing must chug gasoline like an alcoholic.

Excuse me if I don't believe a couple of "real life" archers over experimentation and science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Real science yeah. Except that they use the wrong kind of arrow head against the armor to begin with. Not to mention that the armor is the very first kind of steel plate that excisted.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 12, 2011, 06:43:17 am
for instance English longbow men could 1-2 shot a plated knight 50 feet away

Cool.  In what game?  Cause that's for damn sure not any reality in this plane of existence.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 12, 2011, 06:44:41 am
Cool.  In what game?  Cause that's for damn sure not any reality in this plane of existence.

cRPG, Last night before hotfix  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 12, 2011, 06:59:00 am
cRPG, Last night before hotfix  :mrgreen:
dohohohohoho and 6 months ago.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Inhumanetie on July 12, 2011, 07:12:31 am
I an Archer with 6 PD MW Rus Bow AND MW Bodkins and i seem to do fine with my bow and get a few ranged kills then when i run out of arrows i run in and spam my Mighty Mace and get a few melee kills be4 i can taken out.

U need to stop thinking about realism and think about the fun for others players also, this is why HA's should be banned coz no one has fun when they are around. :D

Also with any luck this will make it so there are not as many archers as more coz it was ruining the game with the amount of decicated ranged such as HA, Archers and Xbowmen.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: _Sebastian_ on July 12, 2011, 07:24:46 am
The lowered missile speed sucks...

My mw-longbow has a rage like a toy-bow for kids...

The max rage is only 150/170meters now.
The max rage of a very very good longbow could be up to 500meters in real (with flight-arrows).

My arrows are flying like in timewarp... it looks so bad and unrealistic.

Ich hope they will give us the old missile speed back. :cry:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Remy on July 12, 2011, 07:36:21 am
this is why HA's should be banned coz no one has fun when they are around. :D

:(

You wound me dear sir.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on July 12, 2011, 08:05:38 am
:(

You wound me dear sir.

He has a point... the only ones who have fun with HA's around are HA's...  :cry:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Ozwan on July 12, 2011, 08:06:55 am
for instance English longbow men could 1-2 shot a plated knight 50 feet away

 :lol:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on July 12, 2011, 08:10:15 am
and if the two-handed spammers complain about archers why do they not just become shielders and make a tactic to fight against archery

Why don't you learn to manual block and survive the two hand spammers?

See just as valid an arguement. Douche.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: OttomanSniper on July 12, 2011, 10:36:36 am
.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: chadz on July 12, 2011, 10:38:01 am
I don't do item balance.

Greets,
chadz
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Loki on July 12, 2011, 10:45:05 am
I don't do item balance.

Greets,
chadz

Item balance isn't the problem, class balance is.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: chadz on July 12, 2011, 10:48:41 am
I don't think _anyone_ does class balance.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Loki on July 12, 2011, 10:52:35 am
I don't think _anyone_ does class balance.

that's obvious.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mustikki on July 12, 2011, 11:08:46 am
Dear chadz,

      My name is Fallen_Gawin and i would like to ask you why did you destroy archery? If you did not want archerey in this game why did you put it in? Every time you nerf archery my fellow clan-mates had to work VERY hard to make archery even worth playing. Archery was fine before the last few patches, but now you messed it up so badly that it would take more than 12 shots to kill a medium armoured person. I do not think that this is historicly correct, for instance English longbow men could 1-2 shot a plated knight 50 feet away, and thus why should not our own archers be able to this? I am not saying make archery soo over powered like that, but atleast make it playable to say 7-8 shot a plated knight, and if the two-handed spammers complain about archers why do they not just become shielders and make a tactic to fight against archery? Such as using THROWING WEAPONS (which you buffed up like crazy) when they chase us they could 1 hit most of us because of light amour, but NO! The "two handed spammers" are like little kids who whine about everything if they lose, and you are like their parents "bending the rules" to make them win. Why not make them create their own tactics to deal with archers instead of "whining to their parents" (you and other admins)? Like my clanmates they worked many hours to perfect "archery tactics" to fight against infintry, and even after many nerfs we never ONCE complained about how horrible archery was, but instead we took it like mature human beings and did something about it instead of "whining to our parents", but now archerey is so horrible that we will probably have to go back to the drawing box and it would probably take 1-2 months to make archery playable, but then the "two handed spammers" would whine again and thus make you nerf it again and again and again.

This message was not made to insult you or any other admins, This is just a message to state the facts about how c-rpg people are like.

                                                                                                       A Fallen player of this game,
                                                                                                                        Gawin
p.s. im posting this here because i cannot p.m. chadz

Change in to Crossbow and you can get 3 times more kills with less focus.

+ can 1 shot people
+ can 1 shot horses
+ can wear better armor
+ can have good melee build
+ can have a good melee weapon
+ can aim untill finds a target
+ can shot through shields

- can't spam as much
- can't whine as much
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Freland on July 12, 2011, 01:57:22 pm
I'm a dedicated 2-Hander who doesn't use a shield most of the time and I don't think archers were OP in patch 0.220. Sure a headshot kills in one or two hits but I can take many body shots and have a reasonable chance of reaching the archer quite healthy. So the archers already had a difficult time and there weren't many with a great k/d. Totally unjustified nerf. Just revert to the old shot speed.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 12, 2011, 02:45:05 pm
I'm a dedicated 2-Hander who doesn't use a shield most of the time and I don't think archers were OP in patch 0.220. Sure a headshot kills in one or two hits but I can take many body shots and have a reasonable chance of reaching the archer quite healthy. So the archers already had a difficult time and there weren't many with a great k/d. Totally unjustified nerf. Just revert to the old shot speed.

Quote
Freland
Peasant
Faction: The Fallen Brigade

Quote
Faction: The Fallen Brigade

Quote
Fallen

Post invalidated!
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Jens_Langkniv on July 12, 2011, 02:55:12 pm
ya arrow speed is just to slow okay a xbow should have faster missile speed than a bow but not by much not like the almost 2 times faster missile speed it has now also it does over twice the damage also unrealistic so damage should have a small buff and speed a big buff else there is no point in being a archer also since now the warbow and longbow use 2 slots witch im okay with it makes archers more dedicated not so all around players who can fight melee well and ranged too= no more 2handers with bows, but seriously ive been fighitng a unarmed person to day with light xbow with my nomad bow skill 119 in archery and pd 3 and the tatar arrows even though i got body armor 30 on and faster shot capebility i lose constantly to a weapon that dont require much dedication thats just lame.

i mean this mod should be playable and fun for all chosen play styles and this latests nerf is just to much also id like to mention gold repair cost is to high i think that should be removed totally and the old retirement system back with lv 31 req but a steep gold price to retire instead so i dont have to save for 3 days to wear my black armor suit for 2-3 hours basicly you can be a archer or a anything other than light infantry really if you want to get s few kills and earn a little gold as it is now im seriously thinking of looking for another mod to play
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: HentziTheHun on July 12, 2011, 02:56:19 pm
Gawin my Champion Arabian Warhorse usually dies from 1-2 arrows. Is this a nerf for you ?:O
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Elerion on July 12, 2011, 02:57:15 pm
Gawin my Champion Arabian Warhorse usually dies from 1-2 arrows. Is this a nerf for you ?:O
What mod are you playing?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Paul on July 12, 2011, 02:58:00 pm
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related) where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Jens_Langkniv on July 12, 2011, 03:07:16 pm
Gawin my Champion Arabian Warhorse usually dies from 1-2 arrows. Is this a nerf for you ?:O

ya i would like to know what mod your playing too because that there just aint true unless its a masterwork longbow with pd 10 user or something and he headshot the horse but then any horse except the heavy armor ones should die from one arrow eg. since headshot with ranged is 250% damage as i recall
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on July 12, 2011, 03:21:07 pm
There is a huge difference between shooting a "low power hunting bow" from 2000 made from composites and nylon and a hunting bow made from wood and string from the 1000s. I have to imagine your bow is a compound hunting bow, which definitely can shoot through the tough reinforced steel of a lawn mower and the steel tailgate. Where the hell do you get a lawnmower made of solid steel anyways, that thing must chug gasoline like an alcoholic.

Excuse me if I don't believe a couple of "real life" archers over experimentation and science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Not really wanting to get into a RL discussion as this is a game and can't be real life.  Regardless, please don't tell me what I can and can't do with a RL bow.  The friends I referenced shoot competitively (with one having a national ranking in compound and one in recurve...the latter makes his own bows.)   By the way composites were made long before 2000...horn, sinew, and wood were evident in bow composition long before we were born.  Modern composite materials may add a little, but mostly they allow for quicker manufacturing and increased longevity.

The bow I use the most is what is called a Half-Breed (try to research) and I get 225 to 250 fps out of it.  Yes, it is a hunting bow, designed specifically to penetrate humanely at short distances.  The average speed is 180-225 fps on most modern bows.  They can be ran up to 300 fps for those powerful guys...too much more creates an unstable arrow flight/release.  Regardless 300 fps is not unheard of.

I've never shot through a lawn mower, nor could I.  A lawn trailer that you haul behind the mower with sheet metal sides I have shot through.  Now consider my arrows were 100 grain and not 300-600 gr as used in war, thus the energy is really decreased and the momentum will drain faster, but my arc is more manageable.  Lighter doesn't necessarily mean faster or harder hitting (lighter could be much more unstable.) 

Compound bows are used because they are easy mode.  They require less draw strength, they efficiently convert energy, they allow a straighter shot (especially at shorter distances), etc.  In other words they make it easier and significantly decrease the learning curve..

As for the video....BS.  Any real scientist would have invested in ballistic jelly or at least put a pillow behind the armor to represent the human torso...not a piece of granite he found in the yard.  The arrow was short and probably the wrong weight.  What draw did he use on the bow?  How long did he allow the bow the cure.  His experiment is compromised in so many ways.  I don't disagree that later armors did advance to the stage that they could resist the arrow (and only a few of the richest could afford it initially), but by then firearms were starting to surface.  How come a bullet proof vest can stop a .45 caliber round but not a .22. 

THIS IS A REAL STUDY (with much more effort put in it than the internet propaganda you referenced.)

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm

Don't believe everything you hear or see on the internet, make your own bow and test it   :lol:  Shooting over 1000 yards...OOOHHH MMMMYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

ONE KEY PART "The ambient humidity can influence the results, as the natural materials absorb moisture. It was difficult to stabilize humidity during the tests, the range was between 35% and 55%  relative humidity. The flight bows, in actual use, would be “conditioned”  with heat to dry the bows before competitions. 6 Such treatment makes the materials stiffer per mass to boost arrow velocity. This was not done here, so the performance could still be improved. Experiments with conditioning will be carried out in the future."................meaning he didn't test in optimun conditions.

P.S. also please don't talk to me as if I am a kid.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 12, 2011, 03:54:23 pm
thank you for helping me out everyone, but we may never be able to see our archery become effective again :(
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 12, 2011, 04:06:20 pm
Why don't you learn to manual block and survive the two hand spammers?

See just as valid an arguement. Douche.
well maybe i like to shoot the shit out of two handed spammers and watch them bitch when they die and get us nerfed. And FYI most archers can manual block very well without being a two handed spammer using only 1 SLOT weapons and most of the time with 0 POWER STRIKE or WPF. so dont say archers cant manual block at all i see them blocking with hammers, sticks, spiked mace, and more 1 slotted weapons and actually killing with hammer, sticks, spiked mace, or 1 slotted weapons. so dont say they cant block because they have to learn how to survive douche bags who run after them and try to kill them.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on July 12, 2011, 05:18:18 pm
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related) where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.

Ahhhh, so you are trying to emulate RL, but only for archery!  Not that it matters what I believe, but that video represents a historian, pretending to be a scientist, trying to facilitate his position on archery effectiveness.  60m/s is reasonable for a starting speed on a low end bow (even long bow.)  52m/s at release and still going 42 m/s at 1000 yds (if I heard right) doesn't seem accurate.  Might as well throw straws at the ememy...or jarids/hammers (after all in RL they can be thrown thousands of yards with pinpoint accuracy...not just 100 feet as in video games)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: _Sebastian_ on July 12, 2011, 06:51:48 pm
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&feature=related) where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.

hmm...

Now I added my own missile mod (real arrows and bolts are flying) to crpg
and the missilespeed looks realy realistic now (just with this ugly and huge flying_missile object it looks so unrealistic).

I measured the maxrage of my mw-longbow again and its definently over 300m/350m.
The problem is, that the shortbow (and other lower bows too) has almost the same rage as the longbow, its only a bit shorter.

So please lower/raise the missilespeed in relation to the bowdamage... the same should happen to the crossbows.
(by the way; the huntig crossbow has a higher missilespeed than the longbow... please fix this)

And...
how can you see the m/s of bows and xbows  :?: :?: :?:




Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leithlen on July 12, 2011, 10:24:25 pm
Agreed.  A longbow should not fire an arrow slower than a light crossbow.  It should be about mid-range for a crossbow (maybe 50 missle speed).

I'm still not sure why arrow speed was reduced so drastically (or even adjusted at all).  It's not like archers were tearing up seige and battle.  If the longbow was too fast, it could have been reduced to 50 and been in line with everything else.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 13, 2011, 12:17:15 am
I get that archery is supposed to be kind of an in-between class, between the now far shooting xbows and the close-up throwers.  But as a practical game balance matter it has become far and away the weakest ranged class because of several factors the game balancing crew didn't take into consideration:

-  Both throwers and xbowers can get away with much heavier armor and still have reasonable accuracy
-  The shoot speed decrease and the armor buff cut archers' damage by half on most targets, whereas both xbows/throwers have high pierce damage weapons and do     almost 3x as much damage as an archer for each comparative level of weapon (nomad bow=normal xbow=javelins).
-  The buff to thrower accuracy (throwing lances are now 149 compared to warbow 101) and decreased archer shoot speed has made hitting a target at mid-range roughly equal for thrower and archers but worse for both than xbows and only xbows can do longer range shots
-  Throwers have a significantly higher rate of fire than archers (roughly 3x), this combined with boosted accuracy allows throwers to completely dominate over archers at closer ranges

Not sure if it was  some twisted worry over a repetition of last strategus despite 4-5 serious nerfs to archery, but archery has definitely become the bastard child of ranged and needs to be rebalanced to being on par with other ranged classes.


P.S.  This is the first time I have seen any developers using real world examples to justify a change in cRPG.  This should be about game balance, stop foisting some misguided attempt at realism in an inherently unrealistic game, in order to justify messing up the game balance.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Seawied on July 13, 2011, 12:30:33 am
-  Both throwers and xbowers can get away with much heavier armor and still have reasonable accuracy
-  Throwers have a significantly higher rate of fire than archers (roughly 3x), this combined with boosted accuracy allows throwers to completely dominate over archers at closer ranges




Ok, regarding throwers: neither of these points are true. Throwers are neither more accurate, nor do they shoot 3x faster than archers.

Throwers also have a severe wpf malice from armor, and they are REQUIRED to have 13 wpf per point in power throw. This means a dedicated thrower with 8 PT must have 104 wpf after armor.

Throwers also have a much slower missile speed, making them only effective at close range. Additionally, the slow projectile speed makes it a less than ideal weapon to use when your allies are entangled with your enemies.

I have both a dedicated thrower, and an archer hybrid. Out of the two, the archer is much more ideal to use as a support character.


I'm of the opinion that arrow speed should be increased some. This isn't because the current value is unrealistic, but simply because I feel faster arrows make for better gameplay... but Kesh, your opinions on throwing are very misguided.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 13, 2011, 03:26:15 am
Its not like archers were tearing up the score board. As far as I know, no archers are even ranked as the top 20 players of cRPG. How is crippling an already weak class even close to resembling establishing game balance?

My one simple question to chadz and the dev team is:

Why was archery nerfed again?

I would really like to know your reasons.

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Paul on July 13, 2011, 10:00:26 am
DaveUKR wanted it.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Vibe on July 13, 2011, 10:03:22 am
Afaik they wanted it nerfed so strat wouldn't be an archerfest again.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Arrowblood on July 13, 2011, 10:05:35 am
We need a xbow nerf no archery, Dave is oneshooting now everyone....
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Blondin on July 13, 2011, 10:54:15 am
Xbow are to expensive for Strategus, no need to nerf it, nobody will use it.
As said Vibe, final goal is Strategus not k/d ratio in cRPG.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Bonze on July 13, 2011, 11:28:08 am
Dear chadz,

      My name is Fallen_Gawin and i would like to ask you why did you destroy archery? If you did not want archerey in this game why did you put it in? Every time you nerf archery my fellow clan-mates had to work VERY hard to make archery even worth playing. Archery was fine before the last few patches, but now you messed it up so badly that it would take more than 12 shots to kill a medium armoured person. I do not think that this is historicly correct, for instance English longbow men could 1-2 shot a plated knight 50 feet away, and thus why should not our own archers be able to this? I am not saying make archery soo over powered like that, but atleast make it playable to say 7-8 shot a plated knight, and if the two-handed spammers complain about archers why do they not just become shielders and make a tactic to fight against archery? Such as using THROWING WEAPONS (which you buffed up like crazy) when they chase us they could 1 hit most of us because of light amour, but NO! The "two handed spammers" are like little kids who whine about everything if they lose, and you are like their parents "bending the rules" to make them win. Why not make them create their own tactics to deal with archers instead of "whining to their parents" (you and other admins)? Like my clanmates they worked many hours to perfect "archery tactics" to fight against infintry, and even after many nerfs we never ONCE complained about how horrible archery was, but instead we took it like mature human beings and did something about it instead of "whining to our parents", but now archerey is so horrible that we will probably have to go back to the drawing box and it would probably take 1-2 months to make archery playable, but then the "two handed spammers" would whine again and thus make you nerf it again and again and again.

This message was not made to insult you or any other admins, This is just a message to state the facts about how c-rpg people are like.

                                                                                                       A Fallen player of this game,
                                                                                                                        Gawin
p.s. im posting this here because i cannot p.m. chadz

Realismus arguments ..trollooo
Its historically correct that archer shot 30 arrows per minute, moving left right with insane speed , jumping and shot a arrow 1 sec later, switch their weapons in one second?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Argos on July 13, 2011, 11:38:25 am
I agree, the speed should be buffed again somewhat.

Though what I'm more interested in, is the amount of time you can hold an accurate shot. With a horn bow, light armour and 119 wpf, I have a decent crosshair size for about half a second. Sorry, how is that supposed to work? The Skip the fun-archer I just created with 165 wpf, even lighter armour and a tatar bow isn't much better. Not being able to hold a shot is very odd and makes it less fun to play as the class.
Also I seem to carefully place my arrow in the quiver when canceling, instead of just leaving it on the string, which would allow me to draw a shot quickly. A reload mechanism like crossbows, that has a standby-state, would make sense and (if possible) be awesome! Though neither bows or crossbows should stay "reloaded" when sheathed and pulled out again.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: EponiCo on July 13, 2011, 12:00:35 pm
Xbow are to expensive for Strategus, no need to nerf it, nobody will use it.
As said Vibe, final goal is Strategus not k/d ratio in cRPG.

Horn Bow
thrust damage: 24 cut
price: 7896

Light Crossbow
thrust damage: 46 pierce
price: 6560

Well, at least everyone can shoot now.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Okkam on July 13, 2011, 12:58:30 pm
DaveUKR wanted it.

Cool.
Who is DaveUKR for you Paul? Daddy?
Maybe you owe him some money?
Maybe DaveUkr now leading balance team? No?
Can you predict what DaveUkr will want from you next time?
Even if DaveUKR wanted it, who is responsible for implementing this? DaveUKR again?

Rage off
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Vibe on July 13, 2011, 01:12:53 pm
Cool.
Who is DaveUKR for you Paul? Daddy?
Maybe you owe him some money?
Maybe DaveUkr now leading balance team? No?
Can you predict what DaveUkr will want from you next time?
Even if DaveUKR wanted it, who is responsible for implementing this? DaveUKR again?

Rage off

 :lol:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: chadz on July 13, 2011, 01:18:50 pm
:lol:
I want to second that  :lol:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gnjus on July 13, 2011, 02:25:24 pm
Who is DaveUKR

WhineUKR is the Chuck Norris of cRPG. He can do everything he wants.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: KING_UGBERT on July 13, 2011, 02:32:51 pm
Balancing issues aside, the biggest blow from this patch that it made crpg less fun to play.  Lancers having slower and less maneuverable horses while only thrusting forward?  Less fun.  HA's whose horses stop to shoot?  Less fun.  Archers losing accurate long range attacks, and using slingshots instead of bows?  Less fun.

Maybe some players can get used to the changes and cope with their limitations, but it will take some work because these classes aren't as fun to play.

Archers, especially 2 slot archers, are all shaking their heads wondering where their bows went.  I didn't want a close/mid range class, but since I'm forced into it -I made a thrower alt instead.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: chadz on July 13, 2011, 02:40:16 pm
Less fun?
My freedom ends when the other people's freedom begins.
Same for fun.

Just because it was fun for a HA to circle a group of infantry, showering arrows on them, doesn't mean it was fun for the inf.
Same for lances.

There are different kind of games that give you a different type of fun. In cRPG, we're trying to give fun by challenge. This means that limitations are necessary to allow the better players to achieve a better performance. This was achieved, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Kafein on July 13, 2011, 02:56:27 pm
but NO! The "two handed spammers" are like little kids who whine about everything if they lose

This makes me laugh because you are currently doing the exact same thing.


Melee stopped being meatshields for the fun classes, more fun for melee, period.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 13, 2011, 03:52:25 pm
This makes me laugh because you are currently doing the exact same thing.


Melee stopped being meatshields for the fun classes, more fun for melee, period.
hey archers never once complained about being nerfed in every c-rpg patch. but now i think we have had enough bull shit and should be able to play the goddamn game instead being nerfed like hell. why wont chadz and his team finish the new strat instead of nerfing archers horses, and making useless things like you only get a -1 of your multipllyer when you lose. chadz and his team should have just left c-rpg the way it was and finishe strat.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 13, 2011, 04:50:44 pm
Calm thyself and walk away for now. Logic Fallacies are creeping in.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Penitent on July 13, 2011, 06:02:40 pm
I rolled and archer, and I've noticed that my arrows regularly go right through the head models of an enemy, doing no damage instead of awarding a headshot.  This has happened for non-moving enemies as well.

Is this a bug or part of the nerf?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: KING_UGBERT on July 13, 2011, 06:12:02 pm
Less fun?
My freedom ends when the other people's freedom begins.
Same for fun.

Just because it was fun for a HA to circle a group of infantry, showering arrows on them, doesn't mean it was fun for the inf.
Same for lances.

There are different kind of games that give you a different type of fun. In cRPG, we're trying to give fun by challenge. This means that limitations are necessary to allow the better players to achieve a better performance. This was achieved, as far as I can see.

Well I didn't mean the classes that didn't get nerfed wouldn't have as much fun of course.  Lots of negatives, does that make sense?  I mean that this massive nerf to horse archers, lancers, and archers made their classes less fun to play.  By a LOT.

If the devs felt hand to handers were underpowered, there must have been better ways to handle rebalancing than ruining the options of other classes.
Perhaps I am a little out of line chiding the decisions of developers while I am just a player, but this seems obvious.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 13, 2011, 06:29:28 pm
I rolled and archer, and I've noticed that my arrows regularly go right through the head models of an enemy, doing no damage instead of awarding a headshot.  This has happened for non-moving enemies as well.

Is this a bug or part of the nerf?

Bug. Supposedly this has nothing to do with cRPG and is the warband engine, yet after the Slot system wa simplemented, that patch appeared to have exasperated the situation, and with the latest patch I am still noticing it. Or... everyone was blind to it happening before, and only now are we collectively noticing it   :lol:

Either way, bug.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on July 13, 2011, 06:37:53 pm
hey archers never once complained about being nerfed in every c-rpg patch.

Lies, may be yourself didn't ever whine about a nerf, but i can ensure you that other archers did and we had a lot of whine after january patch (for example), dev team did a ninja-fix and whine did cooldown (btw, i guess it's how dev understand that you have to do a big nerf, then a fix, and ppl will accept the change easier).

But i agree with you, it's true that archery was nerfed hard by last patch, but once again i'm sure that teamwork will do the gap between good clan and bad clan (in Strategus term), and archery will always have a good place in tactics, you will do less kill but you will still annoy infantry to allow your mates to kill them.

Old Strat was lame because archery was the only master of the field, i hope that patch could give a place to other tactics, not only archers that attacks on the flanks .
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Okkam on July 13, 2011, 06:44:51 pm
Gheritarish le Loki
Quote
Date Registered: June 13, 2011, 16:10:19

I see you must know a lot about Strategus...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 13, 2011, 06:55:19 pm
I rolled and archer, and I've noticed that my arrows regularly go right through the head models of an enemy, doing no damage instead of awarding a headshot.  This has happened for non-moving enemies as well.

Is this a bug or part of the nerf?

Its a bug that has been around since the last patch. If you want a really funny archer bug try shooting a crossbowman as he's reloading in the body. The arrow will sail right through him.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Warcat on July 13, 2011, 06:57:44 pm
Afaik they wanted it nerfed so strat wouldn't be an archerfest again.

There already was a HUGE difference between when we last had strategus with 500 proficiency archers that had pinpoint accuracy missiles across any map (all of DRZ), and the little wood chucking groups we had before this most recent patch. Though in the case of my archer from last strategus, there was one instance of me getting 3 hits and still not killing a naked guy with my warbow from about 30 yards, 5 PD, hadn't ever retired.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on July 13, 2011, 07:00:37 pm
wow Okkam, what a detective you make.... Let me tell you all the truth.
I stopped to play before the end of Strategus (with a friend key) and never registred to new forum, i came back in june when i smell Strat may come back.

Do you believe Drz pwn everybody in old Strat because they had the best 2handers and cav?
First they was a Native clan, their tactics come from ¨CS¨ Native.

@Warcat, i agree with you archery was strongly nerfed since this time, so why a new nerf?
You are the cause fallen, you pwn other team in big clan tournament and the whine on forum make that nerf, this is your fault!! ;)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 13, 2011, 07:41:35 pm
@Warcat, i agree with you archery was strongly nerfed since this time, so why a new nerf?
You are the cause fallen, you pwn other team in big clan tournament and the whine on forum make that nerf, this is your fault!! ;)

Hey it was a team effort in the Multi-Clan tourney when we went 6-1 then 8-0 then 9-0!  :mrgreen:
Thank all the clans that participated, we were only 20 out of 75! Though Ramses and Loki lead the fights, but still!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 13, 2011, 09:47:15 pm
@Warcat, i agree with you archery was strongly nerfed since this time, so why a new nerf?
You are the cause fallen, you pwn other team in big clan tournament and the whine on forum make that nerf, this is your fault!! ;)
Wow you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You do know that one of the stipulations of the clan battles was unit balance. IE 20 ranged 40melee ect.. At the start of each round we had to line up and be counted to make sure that one team didn't have more, say, archers then the other team. Tears is correct Team 1 rocked the tourney because we were better organized with clear leadership. Props to all the clans who help lead Team 1 to victory we all played our part.

If you are correct(which I doubt you are) that the Devs nerfed archery based on the results clan battle then archers/cav are being punished for the results of coordinated team play. Which would be horrible....   
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Loki on July 14, 2011, 07:44:44 am
We won the tournament because we showed up, we always had over 90 players and we are extremely well organized.  Nothing to do with archery.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Jayne_Cobbb on July 14, 2011, 07:51:42 am
Less fun?
My freedom ends when the other people's freedom begins.
Same for fun.

Just because it was fun for a HA to circle a group of infantry, showering arrows on them, doesn't mean it was fun for the inf.
Same for lances.

There are different kind of games that give you a different type of fun. In cRPG, we're trying to give fun by challenge. This means that limitations are necessary to allow the better players to achieve a better performance. This was achieved, as far as I can see.

Funny how your classes were not changed to "increase fun..."



Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 14, 2011, 08:33:56 am
    I've been primarily an archer since I started playing cRPG and survived countless nerfs and adapted.  But with strategus up I've had to face a difficult situation: do I continue to play a class I've loved and enjoyed for so long but has become exceedingly dull and unskillful and provides little benefit to my clan on a strategus battle no matter how much I've practiced and tried to be good at archery OR do I respec into the 2her or polearmer chadz and company seems to want the battles to focus upon with a level 4 shield to get up close against xbows and throwers, which will prove far far more useful a build for my clan with maybe 100 wpf in xbows to boot for ranged accuracy. 

     I actually had planned to respec to a dedicated archer from my hybrid for strategus, but for now I am waiting a bit longer before I go the complete opposite direction toward what chadz and company ahs been driving towards all along (mass melee spamming).  Already half the archers of my clan have retired or are working toward retiring into a non-archer build as sitting around twiddling your thumbs trying to look effective when your entire class is ineffective is mind-numbing work and not an exciting game.  The only archers I can see now are longbowmen (85% or more) as all other bows do about the same damage as a level 10 archer did before the last patch, which just marks them as easily killed dogs with bark but no bite.  I can only imagine 2-4% of the people in this game will have archers as their main within the 2 months because its significantly more useless than throwing was before the latest patch.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 14, 2011, 09:20:40 am
    I've been primarily an archer since I started playing cRPG and survived countless nerfs and adapted.  But with strategus up I've had to face a difficult situation: do I continue to play a class I've loved and enjoyed for so long but has become exceedingly dull and unskillful and provides little benefit to my clan on a strategus battle no matter how much I've practiced and tried to be good at archery OR do I respec into the 2her or polearmer chadz and company seems to want the battles to focus upon with a level 4 shield to get up close against xbows and throwers, which will prove far far more useful a build for my clan with maybe 100 wpf in xbows to boot for ranged accuracy. 

     I actually had planned to respec to a dedicated archer from my hybrid for strategus, but for now I am waiting a bit longer before I go the complete opposite direction toward what chadz and company ahs been driving towards all along (mass melee spamming).  Already half the archers of my clan have retired or are working toward retiring into a non-archer build as sitting around twiddling your thumbs trying to look effective when your entire class is ineffective is mind-numbing work and not an exciting game.  The only archers I can see now are longbowmen (85% or more) as all other bows do about the same damage as a level 10 archer did before the last patch, which just marks them as easily killed dogs with bark but no bite.  I can only imagine 2-4% of the people in this game will have archers as their main within the 2 months because its significantly more useless than throwing was before the latest patch.

NOOO..... Kesh don't give in!!! Don't give an inch we have to fight these unjustified nerfs and try to save cRPG from the man who made it. chadz and the devs live in an echo chamber that clearly want archery, cav and throwing taking a back seat to foot melee. That game would be horribly boring. Don't knuckle under we have to try and get archery(and IMO cav) back to where it was pre-patch. It will take time and determination. Keep posting, keep talking to devs someone will listen. Until then please stick with being an archer, because you are one of the best archers on NA and it would be a sad to see you give it up because the unorganized melee pub player convinced chadz to make a terrible mistake.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Freland on July 14, 2011, 10:12:25 am
What i really don't get is - the consensus among the community was that archery is well balanced. Official survey about item balance  (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5439.0.html) : 151 buff bow, 153 nerf bow). Sometimes the item unbalancers just confuse me...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Arrowblood on July 14, 2011, 10:28:09 am
I sold my my MW longbow yesterday...for..a..fuck...(my biggest crpg fail) :evil:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mtemtko on July 14, 2011, 10:40:40 am
I've been playing an archer for some 10months, before the the big patch ruined everything I was a HA, then the bigpatch hit me real hard, could barely get myself to play the game because archery was so friggin boring (I rather played on my cav, alot more fun), I almost got used to it and now this proj speed nerf (complete brain derp, all experience ruined) and shitty damage, I think im pretty much done with archery and will retire to 1h+shield cav. gg devs, you made me GTX archery, well played.

(KEEP BUFFING XBOWS........... NOT! BETTER IDEA, KICK FASA OUT OF THE BALANCING CREW!)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Okkam on July 14, 2011, 10:41:51 am
Quote
What i really don't get is - the consensus among the community was that archery is well balanced. Official survey about item balance : 151 buff bow, 153 nerf bow). Sometimes the item unbalancers just confuse me...

yes, but then we receive SIX another nerfs

1 - higher chance to repair arrows
2 - huge decrease of arrow speed
3 - decreased arrow damage (for all bows except longbow)
4 - nerf to loomed bows (loomed bow do not receive bonus to weapon speed) -2 to speed or all MW bows
5 - increased weight of quivers
6 - increased cost of equipment


Great work lolbalancers... really
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Apostata on July 14, 2011, 10:58:54 am
I can only imagine 2-4% of the people in this game will have archers as their main within the 2 months because its significantly more useless than throwing was before the latest patch.

Go to archer build man. Dont sell your archer's soul for trinkets. :P
 This "my fun ends where someone else's fun starts" seems like a really weird concept (As weird as unmodified statement for freedom so often quoted and so often praised to heavens by fools, lawyers who seek only the excesses and obligations of personal liberty and reconcilous laymen and ignorants). I found and played in my past so many pvp game mechanisms where losing to others or just the "plausible" scenery of battle was entertaining or even fun as hell. Actually the progress for victory or for individual personal achievement must be always regarded and provided as more rewarding than the final conditions for victory (success at victory conditions, individual or factual is rewarding always, but they ought be not prioritized). That's the secret formula of games which exceeded simplistic goal of Pong to the genious concepts of struggle of which is breathtaking to participate.
 Such concepts include no "fun" territories or doses of "fun"  distributed among player base  as equally devs can. Individual "fun" is quite abstract or if, then bound to victory conditions.

You can see the goal of this game in battlefield full of those who wears daikatanas for its cut damage and armets because of its armor or you can see such goal in  those who are wearing daikatans because they are going to fight and die in sakura grove. It's struggle of what we expect from the game and my hopes withdrawed from cRpg a long time ago.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: _Sebastian_ on July 14, 2011, 02:49:35 pm
Am I the only one who noticed, that the bowaccuracy is lowered since the last patch ???

My char has 172 wpf in archering... and im using a mw-rusbow(warbow) and its inaccurate as hell now.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gnjus on July 14, 2011, 02:51:17 pm
Am I the only one who noticed, that the bowaccuracy is lowered since the last patch ???

My char has 172 wpf in archering... and im using a mw-rusbow(warbow) and its inaccurate as hell now.

Judging by all those headshots in a row I've see you make.....i highly doubt it. Unless ofc you must get closer to like 100 yards from your target instead of the 250 as you used to.....
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 14, 2011, 05:11:33 pm
What i really don't get is - the consensus among the community was that archery is well balanced. Official survey about item balance  (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5439.0.html) : 151 buff bow, 153 nerf bow). Sometimes the item unbalancers just confuse me...
This, so what in the fuck was that poll  for if it was ignored?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cheap_Shot on July 14, 2011, 05:33:11 pm
You have my sympathies. Cut throwing weapons suffered a little of the same but nothing so damaging as both a speed reduc AND a damage nerf. That's awful and I feel guilty every time an arrow hits me and I shrug it off. Stay strong. We range because we love it, even though no one else does. :(
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 14, 2011, 05:38:53 pm
You have my sympathies. Cut throwing weapons suffered a little of the same but nothing so damaging as both a speed reduc AND a damage nerf. That's awful and I feel guilty every time an arrow hits me and I shrug it off. Stay strong. We range because we love it, even though no one else does. :(
Yup, warbow for life! I may be changing my 33 build from my intended 27/18 to a 30/15 though... need to decide as I have a bunch of unused points...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 14, 2011, 07:56:36 pm
You have my sympathies. Cut throwing weapons suffered a little of the same but nothing so damaging as both a speed reduc AND a damage nerf. That's awful and I feel guilty every time an arrow hits me and I shrug it off. Stay strong. We range because we love it, even though no one else does. :(

First they nerfed the Throwers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Thrower.

Then they nerfed the Archers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Archer.

Then they nerfed the Horse Archer
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Horse Archer.

Then they nerfed the Lancer
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Lancer.

Then they nerfed me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Revolution
People of cRPG unite!!! Its time we took back cRPG from those who would ruin it!!!
- Don't give up the build you love. That's what they want. Use your new time not playing cRPG making yourself heard, until the changes are made. 
-Bump each others posts.
-Get on IRC en mass and obliterate the arguments of the weak minded.
-Fight the good fight were ever you can. 
-Don't let them divide and conquer. If a class is fixed keep helping the others who have been oppressed.
-Cheap shot if you could be the artist of the revolution that would be awesome.
-Don't despair. We are the many and the powerless against the few and the powerful. We will win!

Demands of the revolution:
1. Make a dev team that has equal representation by all classes.
2. Democracy: Stop asking for community input then ignoring in favor of a loud Minority.
Case in point:
(click to show/hide)
3. Stop Trolling.

If you can't do this perhaps it is time someone else did.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: OttomanSniper on July 14, 2011, 08:07:06 pm
Give repick heirlooms !!!
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on July 14, 2011, 08:25:23 pm
hey fallen you are too much sensitive, ofc it was a joke... Do you realy believe that archery was nerfed because of you...!
Btw i didn´t say that you come to tournament with huge load of archers, i said that it was your fault because you were good...
Anyway, my apologize if i offend you.

On topic : real archer will stay archer, false archer will quit and that´s a good thing.

I just hope dev team will not nerf archery again otherwise it will be the return of 2hander noobs spammer...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gnjus on July 14, 2011, 08:52:45 pm
You have my sympathies. Cut throwing weapons suffered a little of the same but nothing so damaging as both a speed reduc AND a damage nerf. That's awful and I feel guilty every time an arrow hits me and I shrug it off. Stay strong. We range because we love it, even though no one else does. :(

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 14, 2011, 08:58:42 pm
(click to show/hide)

God damn, those look just like some polearm backpedalers/xbowers I used to know.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Chaos on July 14, 2011, 09:06:02 pm
I recently made a skip the fun archer character and I find it very, very fun with the new arrow speeds. Although the new soak effect and arrow speeds make my damage crap, its still highly entertaining. As far as overall effectiveness goes, even if I hit someone in the helmet with a perfectly placed arrow at medium range (and with a yumi bow, thats not too easy) he'll brush it off and still have the health to take some hits in the following melee. This should speak volumes about how crappy archery is against any sort of armor now. The majority of my kills so far have come from picked up melee weapons, and thats just sad.

Arrows can still chew up my horse though. And my cheap fur armor.

I'm not saying archers need a drastic buff, I'm saying we could use a little damage compensation for the arrow speed nerf. Especially since a lot of people are putting away their bows and picking up shields.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Penitent on July 14, 2011, 09:06:35 pm
If that "official survey about item balance" was adherred to, we would:

Nerf 2h
Nerf pole
Nerf xbow

buff 1h
buff throwing
Buff horses
Buff Armor

Instead, we got:
nerf armor (more upkeep)
nerf horses
nerf archer

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 14, 2011, 10:17:40 pm
If that "official survey about item balance" was adherred to, we would:

Nerf 2h
Nerf pole
Nerf xbow

buff 1h
buff throwing
Buff horses
Buff Armor

Instead, we got:
nerf armor (more upkeep)
nerf horses
nerf archer


The irony is staggering, especially since the results from that poll they discounted the classes that voted for themselves so there goes that excuse....
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cheap_Shot on July 14, 2011, 10:41:50 pm
I wouldn't say armor was nerfed really. Everything costs more in upkeep now, as I'm coming to understand all too well carrying four sets of throwing spears. Armor got worse in one area, but is a hell of a lot stronger against cut weapons now so it's hard to say if it's better or worse. It certainly sucks for people with heirloomed cut weapons. : / And throwing "did" get buffed. It got a lot of great changes. This change of damage just came at a poor time. I think they just try to release too many changes at once and it has to get very difficult to judge the effects.

There have been such major changes, and it would be nice to have heirloom point refunds and free respecs. A lot of us are going to have a lot of trouble getting to 31 for another heirloom. I finally made it last night and it was a painful experience I've gone through twice now during the throwing ups and downs.

Also, yup, look at that bro meme. There it is. Good for you.

As for helping in the revolution. I don't know if I have it in me. I worked so hard to try and get throwing to make sense and it still doesn't really even after the patch. Also the devs just don't give a shit and are trying to balance according to realism. I dont.... I've punched the brick wall enough and my hands are bloody. I'm off to bandage them for a while I suppose. There's no moving that wall.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Smiling Daemon on July 15, 2011, 07:01:05 am
Bump

Archery sucks now. Its like shooting wet noodles at people.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 15, 2011, 07:08:37 am
Demands of the revolution:
1. Make a dev team that has equal representation by all classes.
2. Democracy: Stop asking for community input then ignoring in favor of a loud Minority.
Case in point:
(click to show/hide)
3. Stop Trolling.

If you can't do this perhaps it is time someone else did.

lol
leecher players don't get to make demands of a dev team, especially for a mod.  There's no sub fee or money changing hands other than voluntarily.  In a p2p game you could at least speak with your wallet, but a free mod for a $5 game?  Pffft.

How about the revolutionaries develop their own mod, without ripping off chadz and crew (like that mercenaries dev)?  Just a thought.  You could be the lead programmer!
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Barracuda on July 15, 2011, 08:38:12 am
What I don't understand is that how does decreased missile speeds make archery now "more skilled"? IMO it makes it more luck based than anything else. Sure it takes more skill to shoot someone running a straight line but it's not very common that people run like that in the battle. Usually they change their movement and hitting them with low missile speeds requires some prediction and loads of luck.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cheap_Shot on July 15, 2011, 09:19:02 am
What I don't understand is that how does decreased missile speeds make archery now "more skilled"? IMO it makes it more luck based than anything else. Sure it takes more skill to shoot someone running a straight line but it's not very common that people run like that in the battle. Usually they change their movement and hitting them with low missile speeds requires some prediction and loads of luck.

I was just thinking that, and I agree. It's the same way for throwing pretty much. Gotta hope they run into your projectiles instead of easily avoiding them.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 15, 2011, 09:50:49 am
lol
leecher players don't get to make demands of a dev team, especially for a mod.  There's no sub fee or money changing hands other than voluntarily.  In a p2p game you could at least speak with your wallet, but a free mod for a $5 game?  Pffft.

How about the revolutionaries develop their own mod, without ripping off chadz and crew (like that mercenaries dev)?  Just a thought.  You could be the lead programmer!

1st Point: Your correct. It's a five dollar game and chadz and the Devs have put a lot of work into this mod for little or no pay. So no they don't have to do anything the players say. What bugs me is that they always say this is a beta, therefore all of us a beta testers. If your trying to develop a quality product shouldn't you listen to your beta testers and not a small contingent of people who only play one aspect of the game. Overall, they have created a rich and vibrant community it's merely a shame they don't leave their ecko chamber to hear constructive input it can generate.

2nd Point: I would like to solve these balance problems amiably so that the community can remain solvent, hence the post. But what if a separate mod is an option? With every patch it seems like the devs are progressively moving to make the only playable classes 2H, 1H and pole-arm. If they want to change the game into foot melee only (They could call it cRPG Blade & Pole) that is totally up to them and well with in their rights. But that leaves a good amount of the community out in the cold. I'm no programmer, but I know some and I'm sure other disfranchised cRPG gamers are too. How about (and this is totally a test idea, and could be completely with out merit) cRPG players that dislike the direction of cRPG pool together cash to pay to chadz and the dev team for the code and get programmer talent to work on the code, then make a cRPG mirror that allows players to use the play style they like. Hell maybe the two mods could even integrate in a fashion with exp, events ect...  Overall, I see this as a bad option because it splits the community which is no good for anyone, but if they are just going to write classes and players out of the game it may be the only option.   
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 15, 2011, 09:56:01 am
If they want to change the game

Then it's THEIR mod and THEIR vision of how the want it to play.  That's really the only thing that matters.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 15, 2011, 10:01:52 am
The whole sentence:
If they want to change the game into foot melee only (They could call it cRPG Blade & Pole) that is totally up to them and well with in their rights.

Then it's THEIR mod and THEIR vision of how the want it to play.  That's really the only thing that matters.

Didn't I already say that?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Lorn on July 15, 2011, 10:02:38 am
Then it's THEIR mod and THEIR vision of how the want it to play.  That's really the only thing that matters.

Yet you keep going on and on about how they should nerf archers...what if the devs don't see it that way?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Raki on July 15, 2011, 10:06:27 am
As long as someone removes the chewing gum from my arrows, I'm a happy archer. There's this slight delay between releasing the mouse button and actually releasing the arrow.

I've only tried the (unloomed) longbow with 6 PD so far, so I can't speak for the other bows, but the only thing damage related that remotely bugs me is that I can't 1-hit peasants anymore, while everyone else can...(2 arrows into a guy who's running away from me in a pilgrim's disguise and yet he's still moving)

So yeah, the chewing gum effect, I don't really know what caused it (probably the lowered projectile speed), but it's the main thing that I would like you guys to turn back to what it used to be.

PS: on my 2h main, it's way too easy to dodge arrows, but that might just be the archers I've been facing...(I actually had someone give up on shooting me while I was dodging his arrows on my 1 ath thrower alt)
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 15, 2011, 10:55:14 am
Yet you keep going on and on about how they should nerf archers...what if the devs don't see it that way?

Then they won't do it.  Yet, they keep doing it so apparently it's working.   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 15, 2011, 03:29:04 pm
As long as someone removes the chewing gum from my arrows, I'm a happy archer. There's this slight delay between releasing the mouse button and actually releasing the arrow.

I've only tried the (unloomed) longbow with 6 PD so far, so I can't speak for the other bows, but the only thing damage related that remotely bugs me is that I can't 1-hit peasants anymore, while everyone else can...(2 arrows into a guy who's running away from me in a pilgrim's disguise and yet he's still moving)

So yeah, the chewing gum effect, I don't really know what caused it (probably the lowered projectile speed), but it's the main thing that I would like you guys to turn back to what it used to be.

PS: on my 2h main, it's way too easy to dodge arrows, but that might just be the archers I've been facing...(I actually had someone give up on shooting me while I was dodging his arrows on my 1 ath thrower alt)

No its any decent 2her.  I used to rather easily dodge arrows as 2her before last patch (only really bad players or pure strength builds have problems, of course the main ones that complain about archery) and now its a complete joke, if I just switch to 2her I can kill 2-3 archers every round even if they are working together in a group.  Thats team balance under the developer's vision 1 2her > 3 archers.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Roran Hawkins on July 15, 2011, 03:36:20 pm
Archery indeed does next to no damage. I went in light strange armour on a small battle, and an archer with 3PD fired 15 arrows at my chest, and I took 15% damage in total. He headshotted me and I took another 15% of damage.  He was using a bow or khergit bow, I wasn't really looking at his bow :|

This means that he needs at least 7 headshots to kill me in my LIGHT armour...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 15, 2011, 04:16:45 pm
Why haven't all archers switched to xbow yet, there is no point in being an archer over a xbow you guys could put those 5-6 points into IF or PS and still sit back at spawn and shoot the entire game away except you can hold your shots forever, do this stuff in heavy armor, have extra wpp to spend on melee proficiency, more projectile speed, reload faster, & to top it all off the big game finisher is xbows do more damage, LOTS more damage.



next question is

WHY ARE XBOWS SO MUCH BETTER THAN ARCHERY
stop balancing by realism, kthxbye


Archery should be better than xbows take a look at a few different builds for both classes, xbow builds are FAR more versatile at EVERYTHING.

and thats my rant, just my dumb ignorant opinion.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Manabalu on July 15, 2011, 04:59:19 pm
Archery indeed does next to no damage. I went in light strange armour on a small battle, and an archer with 3PD fired 15 arrows at my chest, and I took 15% damage in total. He headshotted me and I took another 15% of damage.  He was using a bow or khergit bow, I wasn't really looking at his bow :|

This means that he needs at least 7 headshots to kill me in my LIGHT armour...

Yesterday an archer onehitted me with a headshot against 50 head armor.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Manabalu on July 15, 2011, 05:08:09 pm
Archery should be better than xbows take a look at a few different builds for both classes, xbow builds are FAR more versatile at EVERYTHING.

Did you ever played a crossbowman? Create a Skip for fun char and do it. You will see that they have some disadvantages. At the moment xbows are maybe a bit better than bows, especially at low level, but they have their weaknesses. Skirmishing for example is way more effective with Archery.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 15, 2011, 05:54:48 pm
Did you ever played a crossbowman? Create a Skip for fun char and do it. You will see that they have some disadvantages. At the moment xbows are maybe a bit better than bows, especially at low level, but they have their weaknesses. Skirmishing for example is way more effective with Archery.

Actually using a mw light xbow you can now skirmish much more effectively than most archers thanks to last patch.

That archer was probably an 8 powerdraw longbow user, about the only archers I see anymore.  Tried it on my skip the fun alt and it was pretty lame, as you are still shooting wet noodles as the shoot speed of all bows are all around the same unlike xbows where each stronger xbow gets an additional 3 to 6 shoot speed so that th strongest xbow and weakest xbow have 17 different shoot speed, compared to the weakest and strongestbow only being 3 different in shoot speed (the realism argument guy that nerfed archers I guess likes selective realism because that bit of nonsense makes absolutely no sense a tiny short bow shooting as far as a long bow).
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: KING_UGBERT on July 15, 2011, 10:21:32 pm
I actually miss the days when Kesh was an heirloomed demon.  When I first joined as a peasant, we would all band around her and prepare for Lady Gaga to romp in on her epic horse with that mace that blew faces off.  Goretooth and a few others were godly, and it was a blast trying to land my throwing my lances with Native to save my team.  Talk about a challenge.  I was surprised when most of the regulars stuck around when they were dethroned from the patches.  I switched to archery after they nerfed throwing (especially lances) so badly that it stopped being a class.  Kesh really persisted and took the blows of being nerfed admirably; probably because archers were still fun to play.  I think it says a lot as to how bad this patch is that she would ever consider respeccing as a melee character.  I've already seen a lot of dedicated archers dropping out or using alts (myself included).

Most players agree that things were fairly balanced pre-patch, and at the least, it was a blast to play.  I loved Xbows sniping from around corners and killing me when I wasn't careful enough.  Horse Archers were always a pain, but I felt like a good counter to them because I could stay behind tree cover and really send them running if I was skilled enough.  I'd punish 2 handers for not bringing a shield along, and run like mad after trying for a very occasional foot shot on shielders (the shields somehow invisibly cover 96% of their bodies).  Good horse lancers used their range to their advantage, while bad lancers died by rushing in when the enemy was prepared.  Everyone had a few complaints here and there, but in general the game flowed really smoothly.

I lament the horrible feeling and range of archery post patch.  When the patch came out, I thought that bows felt like slingshots -but I like the wet noodle description too.  I sometimes hear people talking about fixing this patch by balancing the lower bow speed with increased damage, but it would be inappropriate to turn bows into slow motion shotguns.  We need our arrow speed back.  30% or whatever isn't a nerf, its a deathblow.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mannhammer on July 16, 2011, 01:09:20 am
No no no... you got all wrong. Kesh never had any skill. According to some....
(click to show/hide)

And for the record you were a terror before the first archer nerf. On many occasions you one shot my charger then one shot me(in full gothic plate) as I was getting up. But I never bitched because if I managed to run you down it was a real accomplishment. No more are the days that killing an archer is hard. But I guess I'm one of those few players that wants all classes to be good because that's where the real game challenge is made, not through stupid nerfs.   
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Seawied on July 16, 2011, 01:12:45 am
Played native again today. It was refreshing to be in a game where archers were something more than a minor annoyance.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mtemtko on July 16, 2011, 01:23:21 am
Played native again today. It was refreshing to be in a game where archers were something more than a minor annoyance.

Native? You mean another paradise for xbowmen right?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on July 16, 2011, 07:10:39 am
Manhammer, I appreciate the comment.  But frankly don't bother arguing with DaveUKR, no one has a bigger ego in the EU (I remember he was arrogant enough to kill teammates in Strategus all the time to get their xbow and bolts "because he could do better with them"). 

Frankly though by his argument xbows should lose 20 shoot speed because they would be buffed then as it would be more "skill-based".  Quite honestly he would suck balls trying to shoot with that low a shoot speed as his main thing is to hide far away from combat take an insanely far shot with sniper rifle accuracy using the arbalest and then go hide some more.  And i do think he is a good long range shot, but if his class was nerfed to crap he might reconsider his specialized focus.

By the way the xbows of the middle ages were like shotguns today, huge power but shitty accuracy.  Bows had far more accuracy (part of that is there is a much smaller directing part of the mechanism leading the shot (i.e. the bolt travels a few inches before leaving the xbow, whereas the arrow slides along the bow shaft for its full length before releasing which helps direct it in a straight line).  Bows like the longbow didn't arc like this in-game unless you were doing 400 meter shots (which should be inaccurate at that range), but within a 100 meters it should fire as levelly as any xbow if not more so.  It certainly should have better accuracy.

Now, not only do arrows travel so slowly that supporting melee characters in combat is a  recipe for disaster (used to be one of my favorite skills), but the damage of every cut bow using the lower shoot speed and the higher absorption speed of the new armor changes is clsoe to nothing.  I can be shot by any cut bow archer at least 5 times before dying, often 8 or more times and I am wearing mid-tier armor (cavalry robe x3 and mail gauntlets x3).  The only remotely effective archers left have exactly 1 build: 8 powerdraw, 150+ wpf, Masterwork longbow user.  I have been a skirmisher archer since the beginning shooting into combat and now my entire class of archery is defunct.  I can choose to switch to the slow longbow user and I have played around with it, but it still doesn't allow me to shoot as melee support, in general its purpose is rather limited to siege defense and only lightly damaging archer volleys behind siege shields (and you don't need low shoot speed to do archer volleys, they existed before in strategus).

The main reason I am almost certain to respec once the peasant phase of strategus battles passes, is that I owe it to my clan to actually be an effective player, which archery is the only class that this is no longer truly the case with its extremely limited role now.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gurnisson on July 16, 2011, 11:06:43 pm
Archers are so insanely overpowered on native. Mtemtko: archers >> crossbowmen in native.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mtemtko on July 17, 2011, 01:38:23 am
Archers are so insanely overpowered on native. Mtemtko: archers >> crossbowmen in native.

I know, I can 3 shot anyone and not one cav gets near me without an arrow in its face because of the pinpoint accuracy.. but I still wonder.. why are there so many xbowmen in native? Alot more common than archers.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gawin on July 17, 2011, 02:33:46 am
I know, I can 3 shot anyone and not one cav gets near me without an arrow in its face because of the pinpoint accuracy.. but I still wonder.. why are there so many xbowmen in native? Alot more common than archers.
the reload is faster
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Raki on July 17, 2011, 03:01:54 pm
yeah, reloading a siege xbow in Native takes about as much time as reloading a hunting xbow in cRPG :|

Either way, I played some siege on my 2her yesterday and I noticed 3 archers trying to shoot me from the walls. After about 15-20 arrows fired at me, they finally gave up because 0 of them hit me. That might be my 6 athletics and my cloth armor helping me a bit, but I also had no problem dodging arrows on my throwing alt with 1 athletics.
I believe that might be a hint telling us that the projectile speed of arrows is a tad too low.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Danath on July 17, 2011, 04:54:51 pm
I'm too lazy to read all this but I just made an archery char for the first time to test archery finally.

And WOW archery sucks HARD In this mod. It's garbage.

I might as well be shooting people with a super soaker. The aim is awful, slow, and weak (unless you get even slower long bow).

Just WOW. What a peice of crap class. The whingers did a great job destroying the archer class lol  :D

YOu just dont realise how nerfed and shit this class is until you spend the time to make an archer class. I'm level 15 and this guy is poo.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 17, 2011, 04:56:14 pm
To be fair, all level 15 archers are poo regardless of patches.

Try a STF to test a level 30.

Thank you though for actually trying it out before babbling about it like a lot of other people do.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Bulzur on July 17, 2011, 05:02:25 pm
To be fair, all level 15 archers are poo regardless of patches.

Try a STF to test a level 30.

Thank you though for actually trying it out before babbling about it like a lot of other people do.
Yep, but lv15 inf can go pure Str (18 str at least, if no converted points, so 21 easily, and 7 PS) and already kill lv30 people. Same for xbows, since the damage always stay the same.
Archers are just... the worst till lv25. Then...the worst since patch.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Danath on July 17, 2011, 05:05:11 pm
Also I want to add, I'm not an awful aimer, but unless you are in the 10% of archers in this game you are going to have a VERY hard time actually getting any kills.

90% of archers in this mod will only be a pest to the enemy by bombarding them with weak arrow fire in hope it distracts them or stuns them for your team, thats about it.

Sadly just pull out an xbow slap in a spare 50WPP and it very easily competes with the archer class.

Currently the archer class IMHO is a Mosquito pest class to enemy. Job is solely about menacing the enemy team. If you enjoy not killing anyone and missing 80% of your shots choose to be an Archer

Info over
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on July 18, 2011, 05:57:11 am
I dunno, Mango_ATS (or whatever) is doing remarkably well as an archer who takes off 50% of my kuyak/wisby gloves wearing str/builder melee per arrow and lands damn near all of the shots.  Maybe he's just really good compared to most?  Damatacus_ATS is similar, as is another one all doing the same godly damage per arrow and nailing crazy accurate shots.  Perhaps they have a better build than most?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Seawied on July 18, 2011, 09:40:07 am
Damatacus is mid 30s, and the few extra levels really make a difference.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on July 18, 2011, 06:26:16 pm
They destroyed archery, now ill have to play with my shielder alt or my pole/thrower alt!

Makes me sad :(
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mouse on August 05, 2011, 05:43:25 am
Damatacus is mid 30s, and the few extra levels really make a difference.

Not to mention completely heirloomed bow, arrows, armor, and teeth. (Damatacus uses his masterwork teeth to catch arrows when you try to headshot him.)

Thread zombie +1!
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: DrKronic on August 05, 2011, 09:23:38 am
the archery nerf at work....(if u don't understand sarcasm, its not nerfed at all in effect, ranged weapons still effectively decides the outcome of battle servers minus the "hero effect" of certain players)

honestly archery should work like it does IRL, where you mainly have to have massed high arc volley shots at target, instead we have the gun effect of shooting basically straight shots or very low angles

instead we have "SWAT Teams" of operators on voicechat relaying targets, firing their guns at slow moving melee whose best chance it is to catch them off guard




(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

I'm sure the retort will be "LOOK the archers didn't get as many kills" interesting how their team magically nearly wiped the other team isn't it, it definitely isn't always kills that matter, staggering guys to death with laser shots at 10 feet is nearly as worthwhile

also Archers like sWalker/Nicotine and others have proven u can still get loads of kills with the right pure archer builds and skill

oh yea the other retort to say I have more kills is also invalid, as I'm a top tier player using the best in my class weapon(max heirloomed)and shouldn't be factored into any balancing equations /baltonoff
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Silicium on August 05, 2011, 09:39:00 am
You still can get on top of the score board but its harder and as son as there is a HA or someone using a rus bow and aiming for you, you are basicly fucked unless you want to start a dance to dodge the arrows i would preferably retreat or even start to run wen hostile infantry are near you but mostly you dont have enough time to switch wapens and i rater get ganged.

What i would do is increase the speed of the arrows for the long bow or increase the speed rate of fire  or perhaps the range something that would by fair against other type of troops class what ever you want to call it.

Just an opinion i still can play like this dosent annoy me that much.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on August 05, 2011, 10:34:30 am
You still can get on top of the score board but its harder and as son as there is a HA or someone using a rus bow and aiming for you, you are basicly fucked unless you want to start a dance to dodge the arrows i would preferably retreat or even start to run wen hostile infantry are near you but mostly you dont have enough time to switch wapens and i rater get ganged.

What i would do is increase the speed of the arrows for the long bow or increase the speed rate of fire  or perhaps the range something that would by fair against other type of troops class what ever you want to call it.

Just an opinion i still can play like this dosent annoy me that much.

FUCK OFF. You do not increase rate of fire because one bow is faster then the other, you actually have to think about melee. Longbows will kill anyone nearly in 2 or 3 hits. Increasing the RoF is completely irrelevant. There is no way to know you would want this only to fight other archers. Infact I personally belive you would like this only so you can run away and jump shot melee guys who get close to you even faster. So, take a fkn pill and fuck off.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: sWalker on August 05, 2011, 11:00:17 am
Correct...I don't want to hear a single archer complaining about the nerf to draw speed.  They got that completely correct.

With that said though, I don't agree with dodging arrows at 10 feet because of the new arrow flight speed.  I personally think that it should be returned to the original pre-patch speed, but I'd be happy with a compromise at least.

Don't nerf cav. anymore, don't nerf xbows, don't nerf melee, don't nerf throwing, just return our flight speed and you will see that these other small issues will turn out to be really close to balanced.

S. Walker
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: _Sebastian_ on August 05, 2011, 01:34:50 pm
FUCK OFF. You do not increase rate of fire because one bow is faster then the other, you actually have to think about melee. Longbows will kill anyone nearly in 2 or 3 hits.
Tzzz...
But you meeleguys can one hit us all the time... and you whine that a longbow can kill in 2 or 3 shots ???

Is it fair?

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: ThePoopy on August 05, 2011, 02:22:48 pm
Tzzz...
But you meeleguys can one hit us all the time... and you whine that a longbow can kill in 2 or 3 shots ???

Is it fair?
eny1 who can take 3 longbow shots can never catch an archer

eny1 who can catch an archer cant 1 hit it
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 05, 2011, 03:29:20 pm
honestly archery should work like it does IRL, where you mainly have to have massed high arc volley shots at target, instead we have the gun effect of shooting basically straight shots or very low angles

You are forgetting that mass indirect volley fire only works against groups of targets, of which c-RPG has a massive lack of considering at best you only have 120 players total per map and they break up really fast or spread out.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Silicium on August 05, 2011, 08:08:40 pm
Quote
Infact I personally belive you would like this only so you can run away and jump shot melee guys who get close to you even faster. So, take a fkn pill and fuck off.

Uh no. Its from ma own experiance if i would like to jump and shoot i would just go with the rusbow and if you can't read i gived some exempel of what could make the longbow a bit equil it dosent need to by the fire rate specifically it can also by the speed of the arrows or meybe the range. 

Oh and thanks for you vucabulare i really like it.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on August 05, 2011, 08:16:20 pm
Uh no. Its from ma own experiance if i would like to jump and shoot i would just go with the rusbow and if you can't read i gived some exempel of what could make the longbow a bit equil it dosent need to by the fire rate specifically it can also by the speed of the arrows or meybe the range. 

Oh and thanks for you vucabulare i really like it.

vocabulary.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 05, 2011, 08:34:06 pm
Uh no. Its from ma own experiance if i would like to jump and shoot i would just go with the rusbow and if you can't read i gived some exempel of what could make the longbow a bit equil it dosent need to by the fire rate specifically it can also by the speed of the arrows or meybe the range. 

Oh and thanks for you vucabulare i really like it.

Why are you deliberately typing like a 14 year old 4Chan tard?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Dezilagel on August 05, 2011, 10:45:36 pm
Why are you deliberately typing like a 14 year old 4Chan tard?

Self 3XxXplanatory
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Warcat on August 05, 2011, 11:21:06 pm
archery should work like it does IRL

So what you're saying, is that when I use a Rus bow, or even my horn bow and hit a naked or non armored opponent in the chest or neck, they shouldn't make a momentary stumble and keep charging at me the way they do now.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: DrKronic on August 06, 2011, 02:55:32 am
So what you're saying, is that when I use a Rus bow, or even my horn bow and hit a naked or non armored opponent in the chest or neck, they shouldn't make a momentary stumble and keep charging at me the way they do now.


dude I totally agree they should drop dead as hell, crazy thing is I have hit naked guys with extremely deadly weapons (things like MW german GS/Might elegant poleaxe) and they lived from a neckhit as well(or hell a blow right through a guys spine lol)

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Shinobi on August 08, 2011, 02:56:47 pm
    I've been primarily an archer since I started playing cRPG and survived countless nerfs and adapted.  But with strategus up I've had to face a difficult situation: do I continue to play a class I've loved and enjoyed for so long but has become exceedingly dull and unskillful and provides little benefit to my clan on a strategus battle no matter how much I've practiced and tried to be good at archery OR do I respec into the 2her or polearmer chadz and company seems to want the battles to focus upon with a level 4 shield to get up close against xbows and throwers, which will prove far far more useful a build for my clan with maybe 100 wpf in xbows to boot for ranged accuracy. 

     I actually had planned to respec to a dedicated archer from my hybrid for strategus, but for now I am waiting a bit longer before I go the complete opposite direction toward what chadz and company ahs been driving towards all along (mass melee spamming).  Already half the archers of my clan have retired or are working toward retiring into a non-archer build as sitting around twiddling your thumbs trying to look effective when your entire class is ineffective is mind-numbing work and not an exciting game.  The only archers I can see now are longbowmen (85% or more) as all other bows do about the same damage as a level 10 archer did before the last patch, which just marks them as easily killed dogs with bark but no bite.  I can only imagine 2-4% of the people in this game will have archers as their main within the 2 months because its significantly more useless than throwing was before the latest patch.

I must say I have more respect for a good archer then xbowmen. If I get head-shot I dont mind dieing from what ever but xbow can hit me in the toe with med armor and its annoying when everything else takes at least two shoots/strikes to kill.

The xbow Shotgun is a beast with no real noticeable requirements when used close ranged and thats one additional reason why we see so many xbows instead of archers today. Its a cheap way to get kills without having to do a trade-off.

In throwing there is a need to have wp and i support that idea. The pt only builds feelt just wrong and was rightly nurfed. Now contemplate going to the battlefield today, you have no throwing wp, powerthrow or xbow wp points, you see two corpses one with an xbow and bolts and one with a throwinglance. Some strange law dosent permit you from picking up the throwinglance and throw it but you are free to take the xbow and bolts and do just as much damage as someone who specialize in the xbow alone. Just wait or go close to you target pull the trigger and have an instant kill.

My next instant level 30 will be an xbowman with agility coming out of its ears and a cheap xbow doing 40+ dmg and il still going to rock in melee range, going to be fun until the nurf :P   

At least bowmen have to have some finesse and do some hard trade-off´s.         

I have noticed a big increase in xbows being used for awhile now and ofcourse there is a reason for that.   
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: AzureSkys on August 08, 2011, 07:58:53 pm
I've been stubbornly holding on to my archery build. Finally I'm grasping the new mechanics and, if not getting hit in the back from cav or shot in the face by xbows I didn't see, I can do ok if my aim and focus are working proper. The biggest difficulty has been the decreased range and slow missile speed. Of anything, if these things could be closer to what they were prior to the nerf I think it'd be pretty good balance. Upkeep cost and weight for arrows would be nice to have reduced as well.

I'd like to have longer hold time after draw, I'd like more damage, and I'd like it to pierce damage, but that's too much to hope for and would turn more threads into 'nerf archery' again. The biggest scores come from heavy armor/2h/polearm and the few wizard's of speed and time who can block like crazy so that seems to be the focus of the mod (as has been said).
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: KING_UGBERT on August 10, 2011, 05:34:25 pm
The biggest difficulty has been the decreased range and slow missile speed. Of anything, if these things could be closer to what they were prior to the nerf I think it'd be pretty good balance. Upkeep cost and weight for arrows would be nice to have reduced as well.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Wookimonsta on August 11, 2011, 10:07:09 am
i like archery the way it is now, fun to play, not dominating.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Spartacus on August 11, 2011, 10:18:12 am
oh archers just take tho long bow and make a good build then you 1 or 2 hit medium armor guys!
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cheap_Shot on August 11, 2011, 12:04:55 pm
Archery isn't bad (unless you're using something other then a longbow).

That bloody projectile speed though, good lord. By the time you reeeeach for an arrow, and draaaaaaawww back the bowstring, and loooooose the arrow, and it flie.....eee.....flieeeees....hang on....putters to its target, they've gotten bored of waiting to be hit by an arrow and left. Or they've been 1 hit by a pole/1hander.

At least with archery though you get some range and your targets aren't likely to realize you're aiming at them if you do it right. Throwing got it's projectile speed lowered too for some crazy reason, and when you're throwing at someone it's kind of hard not to be noticed. I go archery when I need a break from throwing.  :? Maybe I should go to crossbow for a break from both and then wonder why anyone bothers with the bows or throwing in the first place.

Eventually we're all just going to take a break from everything and play plate wearing pole and xbow hybrids. The "chadz Special".
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Warcat on August 11, 2011, 03:43:29 pm
Archery isn't bad (unless you're using something other then a longbow).
For my purposes, the longbow isn't very good, it's just way to slow, and I can't use it mounted on good cav maps. So instead I shoot toothpicks at people with my horn bow, it doesn't do much damage (I can't even kill naked people), but it at least gives me some maneuverability on foot or horse. After all, my job as an archer is to wound people low enough for the melee to finish them off easily, right?

I go archery when I need a break from throwing.  :? Maybe I should go to crossbow for a break from both and then wonder why anyone bothers with the bows or throwing in the first place.
Did the opposite for quite a while, still do some, but not having my 2 throwing lances do as much damage anymore is rather annoying. I get more kills with my MW Stones.
 Just as often use my super high speed katana spammer or my 12 shield skill alt now.

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cumulonimbus on August 13, 2011, 02:53:20 pm
Archery does seem pretty crap now. Horsies can run rings around the team unopposed, people can dodge with ease, and the arrows hit like noodles.

Most of my kills are from my weak melee weapon. Though i'm only level 22 with this archery build, but still... being a low level melee guy is a hell of a lot easier than being a low level archer, where the bows are just minor annoyances to the enemy before they smash your skull in.

Might just roll a staff spam character instead.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Xant on August 13, 2011, 05:20:50 pm
i like archery the way it is now, fun to play, not dominating.

Agreed
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 13, 2011, 06:18:08 pm
Hopefully archery will never be buffed again. Hopefully...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: MrShine on August 19, 2011, 03:03:38 pm
Ehh I'm a bit unimpressed with archery this gen.  I'm still doing alright, but I feel noticeably less accurate, which I attribute to the slower missile speed. 

What it really comes down to is whether the enemy notices you or not.  I score the most hits on unaware archers or melee that are about to engage another target and are moving in a straight line.  If they are coming towards you or know they are under fire it literally becomes a crap-shoot as an archer because you can't effectively predict any sort of movement by the time the arrow reaches the target.  Once people get close to you there's a better chance to hit them but you'll get 1 maybe 2 legitimate shots at that before you're engaged in melee.

I think that the missile speed AND the cut damage changes AND the increased arrow upkeep costs were too much at one time.  If I had to pick one of those to revert I think missile speed would be ideal.  I'm ok with weaker shots but still retaining general accuracy, but being weaker and less accurate and more expensive just kinda... blows.

Good thing I'm almost done with the gen!


Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: ShinySpoons on August 22, 2011, 09:04:44 pm
I rather like how the arrows arc now. It feels much less point and shoot like as one has to judge more stuff to hit a target.

 I wouldn't mind the draw speed being faster though.

In terms of effectiveness I'm playing my HA mostly and my main targets are enemy horsies, naked ones I do fine in taking them down. Armoured ones I plink on, which is somewhat annoying, but justifiable.

On my foot archer I can sometimes top scoreboards if I'm playing well (I play mainly as close infantry support).

So in terms of how much archery was nerfed, I feel the addition of a faster firing, lower pierce bow would even things out. As it stands, against heavy armour the longbow is the only viable weapon. Personally, I'd like to see more variety. 
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Cheap_Shot on August 22, 2011, 09:31:26 pm
It's the same thing with throwing. The cut change made most of the ranged cut weapons useless. No variety anymore, it's just "you have to use these ones or you are restricted to only killing naked peasants." I really liked throwing axes so it's a shame.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: B4dg3r on August 22, 2011, 11:16:14 pm
I fully agree with those who say bow missile speed needs to be increased, among other changes necessary to balance the archer class.  To be completely honest, I was debating on whether to make my gen 3 archer or gen 3 xbower my main before the patch and decided (after much deliberation) it would be my archer, which I loved and had played since day one.  Luckily, I didn't make it official pre-patch and found my archer nearly unplayable compared to my xbower (Ghillie), which is now my main.  IMO an increase in missile speed IS A MUST for bows... it's been said over and over on this thread but bow missile speed is just horrendous.  I haven't played enough on my archer since the patch to comment on more than that, but missile speed alone was enough to get me to switch classes.  I mean no offence to any of the developers - I certainly appreciate the mod and the community that has spawned from it.  I'm just stating my opinion and agreeing with many who have posted here.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Rumblood on August 23, 2011, 05:49:30 am
I rather like how the arrows arc now. It feels much less point and shoot like as one has to judge more stuff to hit a target.

In terms of effectiveness I'm playing my HA mostly and my main targets are enemy horsies, naked ones I do fine in taking them down. Armoured ones I plink on, which is somewhat annoying, but justifiable.

On my foot archer I can sometimes top scoreboards if I'm playing well (I play mainly as close infantry support).

So in terms of how much archery was nerfed, I feel the addition of a faster firing, lower pierce bow would even things out. As it stands, against heavy armour the longbow is the only viable weapon. Personally, I'd like to see more variety.


This sums it up. I like the arc because I can shoot people over hills and behind rocks. Archery is fine. Only the dedicated stick with it now.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Overdriven on August 23, 2011, 12:47:44 pm
It's always satisfying shooting an arching shot from one end of that bridge map and seeing it drop behind the other end and hitting someone out of view.

The arc isn't so bad.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: gazda on August 23, 2011, 12:59:26 pm
You are all mad at wrong person, its not chadz's fault. Fasader is one to blame. Bring your pitchforks and torches and i will point you to his house.
 :D
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Warcat on August 23, 2011, 05:39:21 pm
Your wrong, the chief executive is always the one to take the blame, doesn't matter who did what. Besides, chadz is the donkeyest
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on August 28, 2011, 12:37:45 pm
wow all archer retards are crying here. lulz, go back to cod if you want ranged shitfare
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 12:51:09 pm
Archery is very well balanced. It's still gay (I know many 2h players that hate me) but it's not that easy because of arc, crappy damage (horn bow) or slow release (long bow).

But something is way off and that's xbow. I know I mostly suck as an archer but most of the time I have issues outspamming xbow players and that's just crazy. I should be stone for ther scissors...

IMHO Xbow my old friends should have reload time of 1 minute while using Arbalest, fo realz. Or drastically shorter range.

Arc is epic, yesterday I killed fletcher from my spawn shooting at his spawn and made a headshot, bet he was very pissed at that moment :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Hirlok on August 28, 2011, 01:49:18 pm
I suggest every decent dedicated archer goes dedicated xbow for a few generations...

Give them bolts - until someone in the dev team comes to their senses and arrow speed etcetera start to make sense again.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mtemtko on August 28, 2011, 02:02:56 pm
Either nerf xbows or buff archery.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Fasader on August 28, 2011, 02:13:02 pm
zomg mte is back from his xbow trip. returned to archery because xbow was too hard for him :(
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mtemtko on August 28, 2011, 02:51:15 pm
Not really, xbow was damn ezmode, also I went 1h cav after xbow, now im archery for this gen, I'll most likely never stay one spec because the game gets boring..... and from each of my builds what I wrote stays: Buff archers or nerf xbows.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 03:29:35 pm
zomg mte is back from his xbow trip. returned to archery because xbow was too hard for him :(

Why don't you roll an archer? Or Paul something else besides shielder. I'm rolling different class every gen, for 9 gens so far.

Rolling STF alt is cool and all but most people do play from lvl 1-30, balancing lvl 30 classes isn't a very good idea.

Archer is shit before lvl 28.

Edit: Nerf xbow cause if you buff archery everyone else will suffer. Also nerf cavalry.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Keshian on August 28, 2011, 03:30:17 pm
Actually at this point it is probably fine, except for one major thing - buff the cut damage of all the cut bows!!!  This armor buff has made all but the longbow practically useless especailly compared to the xbows pierce damage against anyone with armor over 20.  Having to shoot guys 8 to 10 times with powerdraw 9 and a masterworked horn bow or rus bow with masterworked arrows is fricken ridiculous and then you can 1 to 2 shot them with arbalest or 2 to 3 shot with longbow.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Mushy on August 28, 2011, 09:14:29 pm
Personally, I wouldn't mind archery if you all didn't do that stupid run and shoot tactic, where infantry is completely failed and bound to lose. Its so dumb when its a 5v1 and the 1 guy left is an archer and he is able to win the round because the infantry couldn't even get close to him. You say we could become throwers or whatever. Why should we sacrifice skill points and attribute points just so we stand a slight chance of killing archers? Archers sacrifice nothing to deal with melee folk like me, they instead just activate race car mode and rocket off.

Solution - Increase archery damage and speed back to what it was before, but make bows and arrows alot heavier, to counter act the running issue.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 10:14:37 pm
You need 24 agi or more to catch up with longbowman. Reason why I run is simple, I'm forced to use Hammer with no wpf and with 3 ps. Gimme at least 5 ps, 100 2h wpf and a longsword and I'll gladly fight any of you.

Blame slots for every archer running away. Remove slots and I'll fight even with 1 wpf.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on August 28, 2011, 10:18:26 pm
You need 24 agi or more to catch up with longbowman. Reason why I run is simple, I'm forced to use Hammer with no wpf and with 3 ps. Gimme at least 5 ps, 100 2h wpf and a longsword and I'll gladly fight any of you.

Blame slots for every archer running away. Remove slots and I'll fight even with 1 wpf.

Str 18
Agi 21

1h  50 wpf
Archer7 150 wpf


Power Strike 4

Athletics 7

Power Draw 6

Weapon Master 6



You have no excuse.  50 wpf is more than enough wpf to duel someone.  Hell 1 wpf with melee is enough.  4 PS with a pierce or blunt weapon is enough for all but full plate, and the slots are not an issue UNLESS you're going for longbow + 2 bags of arrows.  Want a 1 slot melee weapon, go down to the strong bow.  You should own both anyways.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 10:20:07 pm
Why don't you try it yourself, smartass?

Then go back and tell us how eaze it was :D

Edit: I don't own many bows, cause I'm not dedicated archer, I'm just playing one this gen.

Gorath aren't you, by any chance, lost brother of Fasader and Paul? Cause, honestly, you have no clue how some classes work atm, just like those two guys. Thank god you're not in the balancing team.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on August 28, 2011, 11:00:14 pm
Why don't you try it yourself, smartass?

Nubby_McNubbins
Previously:
Perforated_Prostate
lolezstylin
MoneyShot

I play an archer alt all the time Lesh.  Whenever I'm feeling lazy and don't want to work at getting kills by chambering, blocking, utilizing footwork or anything else.  I just get on my archer, grab my longbow, find a roof or hill I can camp with the other ranged and start pew pewing away at all the people without gunsbows to shoot back with.  It's like playing an FPS against people that don't get firearms to shoot back with.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on August 28, 2011, 11:03:36 pm
I remember MoneyShot... hmm. Had no idea that was you.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: gazda on August 28, 2011, 11:04:23 pm
COOKIES
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 11:14:16 pm
So you're telling me to man up, grab my hammer and go for those 4 guys who have 150 wpf each and some long weapons which hurt 3 times as much as my ps 3 hammer.

And no, I can't waste even 50 wpp cause I need it for my longbow which isn't precise enough even with 163 wpp!!!

And of course that I need those 30-36 arrows. My job is to kill horses and xbowmen and I need a lot of arrows for that.

Not everyone is super pro archer like you Gorath, who can kill every tincan with 2 headshots in a row, who own every cav player with just one arrow, who...blah blah blah

And you can't get up high hill, hit R and shoot like there's no tomorrow. First, there are xbowmen down there, somewhere in the bushes whose projectiles fly straight (so you have to dance polka while givin'... erm shooting heads off) and second you can't hit shit from such distance even with 163 wpp and a longbow. Even if you hit for every low medium guy you need two such shots.

Basically, you came here telling me how archery is super easy mode just because every two weeks you get drunk and get on your shitty alt which doesn't have anything heirloomed and you OWN everyone! How yes no! You own everyone just like Michael owns everyone all the time, on every map and with every class, but he likes to play hardest possible class Teh elephant where he can't score enough to be first cause of dem pikemen...

Full of shit, that's what you're last two posts are. Stop trolling and maybe we can have nice and proper discussion about mod balance, otherwise you're just looking foolish.

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on August 28, 2011, 11:24:46 pm
So you're telling me to man up, grab my hammer and go for those 4 guys who have 150 wpf each and some long weapons which hurt 3 times as much as my ps 3 hammer. 
This was not the scenario in question.  I also SPECIFICALLY mentioned that your 4ps, hammer, and 1-50 wpf are more than enough for a 1v1.  Now you're bitching about going after a 4v1...
Stop raging.

And no, I can't waste even 50 wpp cause I need it for my longbow which isn't precise enough even with 163 wpp!!! 
Then you're bad.  Sorry, simple as that.  If you NEEEEEEEEEED a fucking fully closed laser sight single dot fucking x-hair like a damned railgun in order to do well then you're just bad and whining.
Stop raging.

And of course that I need those 30-36 arrows. My job is to kill horses and xbowmen and I need a lot of arrows for that.
2 bags of arrows are fine.  The 0 slot hammer is more than enough to kill any infantry barring the most plated 3x heirloomed asshole.
Stop raging.

(click to show/hide)
Huge raging whine of bullshit and drivel.
Now you just look and sound childish.
Stop fucking raging.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on August 28, 2011, 11:44:38 pm
Yeah, I'm raging and acting childish.

You, on the other hand, are always right, acting mature and calm and...

I'm out, keep nerfing archery cause Great Gorath the Warcleaver Guy says so...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on August 29, 2011, 12:01:16 am
Yeah, I'm raging and acting childish.

You, on the other hand, are always right, acting mature and calm and...

I'm out, keep nerfing archery cause Great Gorath the Warcleaver Guy says so...

I didn't say nerf archery here.  You should try looking up my posts in the forums where I actually say that I believe ranged is pretty balanced in general now.  Melee and cav as well.
I simply don't like the AMOUNT of ranged spam/players.  I've stated quite a few times that overall I think we're in a pretty good state of balance other than INTERNAL balance issues.
I also never said I'm always right, or any of that other shit. 
Yes you are acting like a raging child at this point though.
All I pointed out was that there is nothing in the game that is preventing you from doing something other than the cheap-shit run and shoot method you were defending.  It's valid and archers are going to do it, but they don't HAVE to.  They CHOOSE to.

You need 24 agi or more to catch up with longbowman. Reason why I run is simple, I'm forced to use Hammer with no wpf and with 3 ps. Gimme at least 5 ps, 100 2h wpf and a longsword and I'll gladly fight any of you.

Blame slots for every archer running away. Remove slots and I'll fight even with 1 wpf.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
Strength: 18
Agility: 18
Hit points: 53

Unused skill points: 5
Skills to attributes: 2

Power Strike: 6
Athletics: 6
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 6

Two Handed: 100
Archery: 134

There.  Longsword, Horn Bow, 1 bag of arrows.
Oh, not good enough?  Then that's your CHOICE.  You're not forced to do anything.
Hell, I want to be able to carry a 2her for duels, shield for anti ranged, longspear for anti cav and great maul for anti shields but I can't do that either so I'm FORCED to deal with being vunerable to things as well.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: KING_UGBERT on August 31, 2011, 01:21:07 pm
I haven't really played Mount and Blade since the patch.  I just check the forums once in awhile to see if archery arrow speed is fast again.  I can get plenty of kills with slow arrows, but it just isn't fun anymore.  I'll check once in awhile to see how things pan out. 

/salute to all you archers who still play, KING UGBERT
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Adalwulf on August 31, 2011, 07:09:16 pm
lol wtf is  this drama. i'm doing just fine as an archer with MW rus and barbed arrows....it's easy....tin can or not...it just takes getting used to.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: MrShine on August 31, 2011, 08:52:22 pm
lol wtf is  this drama. i'm doing just fine as an archer with MW rus and barbed arrows....it's easy....tin can or not...it just takes getting used to.

Missile speed is something that takes getting used to... to a point.  But against aware opponents it literally becomes a crap-shoot at anything beyond mid-short range.  Too much can happen by the time you fire to the time the arrow reaches the intended location that you can't be a consistent shot unless your enemies are standing still or are moving in a predictable straight line. 

Sure things might glance less now but with cut changes it takes a silly amount of arrows to kill someone in heavy armor, even mid-heavy armor.  This coupled with the arrow upkeep changes coupled with the missile speed nerfs have made non-longbow archers much much less functional as a whole.

Pre-patch I went 15/24 MW horn bow/MW bodkin arrows and was pretty effective.  My post-patch archer gen was 18-21 and I noticed a substantial decease in general effectiveness; I had to hit people more often and it took more arrows fired per hit.

It simply isn't worth it right now, not compared to other classes that are more useful and infinitely more enjoyable.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Adalwulf on August 31, 2011, 10:26:44 pm
not true at all...you just have to know how the player will react...all players dodge left or right in a normal pattern and I nail them 70% of the time. Also when i'm scoring top 5 in frags I'd hardly say archery is ineffective.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Xant on September 01, 2011, 01:47:32 pm
Missile speed is something that takes getting used to... to a point.  But against aware opponents it literally becomes a crap-shoot at anything beyond mid-short range.  Too much can happen by the time you fire to the time the arrow reaches the intended location that you can't be a consistent shot unless your enemies are standing still or are moving in a predictable straight line. 

Sure things might glance less now but with cut changes it takes a silly amount of arrows to kill someone in heavy armor, even mid-heavy armor.  This coupled with the arrow upkeep changes coupled with the missile speed nerfs have made non-longbow archers much much less functional as a whole.

Pre-patch I went 15/24 MW horn bow/MW bodkin arrows and was pretty effective.  My post-patch archer gen was 18-21 and I noticed a substantial decease in general effectiveness; I had to hit people more often and it took more arrows fired per hit.

It simply isn't worth it right now, not compared to other classes that are more useful and infinitely more enjoyable.

So what, you should be able to hit people at long range consitently while they're dodging?  :|

Also BS @ your "silly amount of arrows". Rus bow and long bow kill in 2-4 arrows even if the other guy is wearing heavy armor. And about long bow? On my archer I preferred the Rus Bow, good enough damage and faster. You're also not EU so you don't see the archers who top scoreboards consistently with rus bows..
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on September 01, 2011, 08:06:18 pm
Let's not forget Jambi with his heirloom rus bow and arrows going around one hitting people. It gets fucking deadly. And I'm not talking about headshots here.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: MrShine on September 02, 2011, 02:48:45 am
So what, you should be able to hit people at long range consitently while they're dodging?  :|

Also BS @ your "silly amount of arrows". Rus bow and long bow kill in 2-4 arrows even if the other guy is wearing heavy armor. And about long bow? On my archer I preferred the Rus Bow, good enough damage and faster. You're also not EU so you don't see the archers who top scoreboards consistently with rus bows..

I don't think archers should be able to consistently score hits at long range,  but from personal observation with 3.5 generations as an archer before the patch and 1 generation after the patch I noticed a substantial decrease in my overall effectiveness as an archer.

And yes, with a masterwork horn bow and masterwork bodkin arrows (which incidentally does the same amount of damage as a +0 rus bow w/ +0 bodkins...) I did have to hit people 4-6+ times if they wore mid-high/high level armor.  I can't recall a single time I 2 shot someone in heavy armor unless I hit them in the head or it was a cav player who I plugged at point blank range with speed bonus.

Being pigeon-holed into using a rus or long bow as an archer shouldn't be required in order to be effective.  Not to mention that bodkin arrows now break to the point of being literally unsupportable as a consistent part of a build... anyone using them consistently will be bleeding gold  that gen (lost 45k leveling to 30 with them). 

Did archery need some changes? Perhaps. But there were too many nerfs in too many facets of the archery game that all came at once.  The result?  Underpowered archery.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Xant on September 02, 2011, 03:05:26 am
Archery is far from underpowered. There might be some UP bows, but that doesn't mean archery is.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 02, 2011, 03:21:00 am
Being pigeon-holed into using a rus or long bow as an archer shouldn't be required in order to be effective. 

Being pigeon-holed into using top tier melee weapons shouldn't be required in order to be effective either.  Buff regular voulge, simple sword, etc.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: MrShine on September 02, 2011, 04:40:17 am
Being pigeon-holed into using top tier melee weapons shouldn't be required in order to be effective either.  Buff regular voulge, simple sword, etc.

 :rolleyes:  Are you trolling? I don't know how you can post this with a straight face.

Look at how many melee weapon options there are compared to archery options, and then look at what percentage of those are truly viable.

There are only three truly viable bows: horn bow, longbow, or rus bow (occasionally Tartar bow for HA but they just tickle).  I'm making the case that the horn bow has now become even less viable, so really you're looking at two.  Anyone who goes a different bow is doing it wrong.

Meanwhile -let's be honest- you can be completely viable with the majority of 2H, polearms, and a bunch of 1H weapons.  Sure some hit harder and some are faster and some have more reach, but there is usually a give and take which actually makes you have to decide which one suits your playstyle. 
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Xant on September 02, 2011, 05:29:58 am
You can be viable with any bow. I was doing just fine with "Bow" until I got enough monies to buy a Rus bow.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Siiem on September 02, 2011, 06:02:25 am
And yes, with a masterwork horn bow and masterwork bodkin arrows (which incidentally does the same amount of damage as a +0 rus bow w/ +0 bodkins...) I did have to hit people 4-6+ times if they wore mid-high/high level armor.  I can't recall a single time I 2 shot someone in heavy armor unless I hit them in the head or it was a cav player who I plugged at point blank range with speed bonus.

 :shock: my stf archer was able to kill people in medium armour in 5 - 7 hits with a nomad bow... wtf were you doing?
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Jambi on September 02, 2011, 06:13:00 am
I have a MW rusbow MW bodkin's MW mail guantlets and MW light strange armor. I can pay the upkeep for it just fine, i actually make a little bit of money. Tho you need to run on x5 or x4 alot. For example today I played for about 2-2.5 hour, something like that. i made 10K gold.

I only 1 shot peasants... or agi builds sometimes. Yes archery damage is low, but with a few tricks you can be very effective.

Just a hint, to fellow archers out there!
Dont have your arrow hit the target, but have your target run into the arrow. Think about it, and you will see that it works from any angle or direction.
For example, if your shooting at someone running horizontal from you. Dont aim for his side, but aim for his belly. So he will run into it. make him catch the arrow.

And ofcourse for your upkeep, make sure your playing on a server where the rounds last a few minutes. and arent ended in 1-2 minutes.

I hope you understand,
And personally i feel archery is right where it is supposed to be. No more buffs  needed imo. But i do still believe in Strongbow needing to be 2 slots.

good luck :D

Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: MrShine on September 02, 2011, 03:34:32 pm
You can be viable with any bow. I was doing just fine with "Bow" until I got enough monies to buy a Rus bow.

Maybe viable against other peasants, certainly not viable against anyone close to level 30 or wearing an ounce of armor. "Bow" does 18 cut damage, less than throwing knives.  Since when have you seen a serious and truly effective thrower build that uses throwing knives? 

:shock: my stf archer was able to kill people in medium armour in 5 - 7 hits with a nomad bow... wtf were you doing?
You're talking about medium armor with a nomad bow, I'm talking about mid-high/high armor with a masterwork horn bow... we're comparing different things.

Sure with my horn bow I would 3 shot most people with medium armor, probably 2 (maaaaybe 1) shot if they were peasants.  Similarly if you would use your nomad bow on mid/high - high armor it will probably be 7+ arrows, essentially uselessness.  I don't see how this is supposed to support your argument :P

I have a MW rusbow MW bodkin's MW mail guantlets and MW light strange armor. I can pay the upkeep for it just fine, i actually make a little bit of money. Tho you need to run on x5 or x4 alot. For example today I played for about 2-2.5 hour, something like that. i made 10K gold.
You must be an exception then, because someone winning half their rounds has a 1.9 average multi, which means the majority of players who pick up archer will NOT be able to sustain bodkin arrows.  Also not everyone is in an elite clan and able to tilt that in their favor in battle  :wink:.

I consider myself to be a pretty decent archer and I know my average multi was probably closer to that x3 range than the average, and as I said I kept track of my gold during the course of my gen and I lost a substantial amount of gold. 

Comparing that to this gen as a 1h-shielder where I'm raking in the gold wearing a much more expensive gear loadout...


Just to reiterate to try to show that this isn't intended to be a whining rant, I am ok with archery to take some nerfs.  I just think there were too many that occurred at once.  Adjust the arrow upkeep changes slightly, upgrade missile speed slightly, and you can leave the cut damage as is.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on September 03, 2011, 01:43:47 pm
I have a MW rusbow MW bodkin's MW mail guantlets and MW light strange armor. I can pay the upkeep for it just fine, i actually make a little bit of money. Tho you need to run on x5 or x4 alot. For example today I played for about 2-2.5 hour, something like that. i made 10K gold.

I only 1 shot peasants... or agi builds sometimes. Yes archery damage is low, but with a few tricks you can be very effective.

Just a hint, to fellow archers out there!
Dont have your arrow hit the target, but have your target run into the arrow. Think about it, and you will see that it works from any angle or direction.
For example, if your shooting at someone running horizontal from you. Dont aim for his side, but aim for his belly. So he will run into it. make him catch the arrow.

And ofcourse for your upkeep, make sure your playing on a server where the rounds last a few minutes. and arent ended in 1-2 minutes.

I hope you understand,
And personally i feel archery is right where it is supposed to be. No more buffs  needed imo. But i do still believe in Strongbow needing to be 2 slots.

good luck :D

I used to play with my usual low gear (rags, rus shoes, khergit lady hat) using long bow, 2xtatars and a hammer and I was making shit ton of money. Maybe it's tight with 2x bodkins but I really made a lot, hard for me to imagine that I would be losing money with bodkins. Being an archer you can affect outcome of the battle more than you can as regular melee footman. Why? Because you can kill 2h monsters easier than anyone else, you can kill Leed and other nasty cav. Basically, if you choose the right targets your team won't lose often. And also you usually end up being last (if you're smart) which usually means valor. Don't get all the fuss about archery being upkeep unfriendly.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on September 06, 2011, 01:16:47 am
Blame slots for every archer running away. Remove slots and I'll fight even with 1 wpf.

True that. I used to stand and fight a lot more when I could carry a half decent melee weapon. Unfortunately the general ineffectiveness of any 1 slot bow (ok, horn bow is ok, but not  a patch on rus or long bow) paired with the reduced number of arrows per quiver mean the slot restrictions force me to carry a rubbish melee weapon.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 06, 2011, 01:18:32 am
True that. I used to stand and fight a lot more when I could carry a half decent melee weapon. Unfortunately the general ineffectiveness of any 1 slot bow (ok, horn bow is ok, but not  a patch on rus or long bow) paired with the reduced number of arrows per quiver mean the slot restrictions force me to carry a rubbish melee weapon.

Steel pick
Long espanada
Langes Messer
Spiked mace
Italian sword
Iberian mace
etc are all "rubbish" weapons?

Good to know.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 06, 2011, 02:16:29 am
Steel pick
Long espanada
Langes Messer
Spiked mace
Italian sword
Iberian mace
etc are all "rubbish" weapons?

Good to know.

He is using a two slot bow, all of those are not zero slot weapons. :/
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Leshma on September 06, 2011, 02:18:35 am
Tears you simply don't get it.

What Gorath tries to say is that 15-18 are is more than enough for an archer :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 06, 2011, 02:20:38 am
Tears you simply don't get it.

What Gorath tries to say is that 15-18 are is more than enough for an archer :rolleyes:

Yes.  Stop missing.
OR
Use a 1-slot bow.

Compromises.

I can't have a:
shield vs arrows
pike vs cav
maul vs shields
2her vs everything else on one character either.  So clearly infantry is underpowered because of the slot system.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 06, 2011, 02:29:04 am
All I see are infantry who bitch that archers can defend themselves and use two handers, then post patch more infantry bitching that archers now always run and rarely fight.

Blah blah blah...


I think people should lay this dead horse to rest. Fine, we get it, archery is "gay" (retards don't know hw to properly use that word?) infantry don't like to chase, archers like to shoot people from far away, bows are completely overpowered and somehow at the same time have been nerfed too many times and are too weak, infantry retards are giving archers advice on how to shoot and archer retards are giving infantry advice on how to fight yadda yadda yadda, and so on so forth...

Nevermind, carry on repeating yourselves and pretending that your input means anything to game balance or that you are actually saying anything new and not so boringly old...
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 06, 2011, 02:32:16 am
Fine, we get it, archery is "gay"

Only thing that needed to be said, the rest is whining. 

Still love you though.

*The more I think about it the more it seems that everyone should be able to carry a 2her, and a ranged weapon of choice at all times.  And ride any horse.  Just as baseline aspects of having a character.  Then customize from there.  That way everyone can shoot back at the fuckwads shooting at them instead of trying to run to them with only a melee weapon and hoping to live.  Or hiding somewhere and delaying the round because they can't shoot back and don't want to get shot.  You know, like a real FPS where everyone can shoot at each other.  /whine-rant*
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 06, 2011, 02:40:26 am
Go play native where all of that is possible.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 06, 2011, 02:42:26 am
Go play native where all of that is possible.
No.  Can't pick a cav class and pick up a bow and shoot it in native.  Can't ride any horse as an xbowman either.  Or infantry :(

Damn classes.

Pre-hybrid killing patch though you could do it here in cRPG.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Tears of Destiny on September 06, 2011, 02:47:04 am
So we want more hybrids again? If memory served, people babbled that it was unfair/gay/surprise buttsex

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and the golden days have never been more golden.
Title: Re: Archery Nerfed
Post by: Gorath on September 06, 2011, 03:27:56 am
So we want more hybrids again? If memory served, people babbled that it was unfair/gay/surprise buttsex

Other people did (I bitched about x-bow hybridizing without investment, which still exists, which is lame).  If you recall I was one of the only 5 weapon hybrids in the game back then and I fucking loved it because I never had to do the same thing for two rounds in a row if I chose.