Author Topic: Archery Nerfed  (Read 17980 times)

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Offline Paul

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 02:58:00 pm »
-1
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 02:59:54 pm by Paul »

Offline Jens_Langkniv

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2011, 03:07:16 pm »
0
Gawin my Champion Arabian Warhorse usually dies from 1-2 arrows. Is this a nerf for you ?:O

ya i would like to know what mod your playing too because that there just aint true unless its a masterwork longbow with pd 10 user or something and he headshot the horse but then any horse except the heavy armor ones should die from one arrow eg. since headshot with ranged is 250% damage as i recall
BEEERRRR

Offline mandible/splinteryourjaw

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 03:21:07 pm »
+1
There is a huge difference between shooting a "low power hunting bow" from 2000 made from composites and nylon and a hunting bow made from wood and string from the 1000s. I have to imagine your bow is a compound hunting bow, which definitely can shoot through the tough reinforced steel of a lawn mower and the steel tailgate. Where the hell do you get a lawnmower made of solid steel anyways, that thing must chug gasoline like an alcoholic.

Excuse me if I don't believe a couple of "real life" archers over experimentation and science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Not really wanting to get into a RL discussion as this is a game and can't be real life.  Regardless, please don't tell me what I can and can't do with a RL bow.  The friends I referenced shoot competitively (with one having a national ranking in compound and one in recurve...the latter makes his own bows.)   By the way composites were made long before 2000...horn, sinew, and wood were evident in bow composition long before we were born.  Modern composite materials may add a little, but mostly they allow for quicker manufacturing and increased longevity.

The bow I use the most is what is called a Half-Breed (try to research) and I get 225 to 250 fps out of it.  Yes, it is a hunting bow, designed specifically to penetrate humanely at short distances.  The average speed is 180-225 fps on most modern bows.  They can be ran up to 300 fps for those powerful guys...too much more creates an unstable arrow flight/release.  Regardless 300 fps is not unheard of.

I've never shot through a lawn mower, nor could I.  A lawn trailer that you haul behind the mower with sheet metal sides I have shot through.  Now consider my arrows were 100 grain and not 300-600 gr as used in war, thus the energy is really decreased and the momentum will drain faster, but my arc is more manageable.  Lighter doesn't necessarily mean faster or harder hitting (lighter could be much more unstable.) 

Compound bows are used because they are easy mode.  They require less draw strength, they efficiently convert energy, they allow a straighter shot (especially at shorter distances), etc.  In other words they make it easier and significantly decrease the learning curve..

As for the video....BS.  Any real scientist would have invested in ballistic jelly or at least put a pillow behind the armor to represent the human torso...not a piece of granite he found in the yard.  The arrow was short and probably the wrong weight.  What draw did he use on the bow?  How long did he allow the bow the cure.  His experiment is compromised in so many ways.  I don't disagree that later armors did advance to the stage that they could resist the arrow (and only a few of the richest could afford it initially), but by then firearms were starting to surface.  How come a bullet proof vest can stop a .45 caliber round but not a .22. 

THIS IS A REAL STUDY (with much more effort put in it than the internet propaganda you referenced.)

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm

Don't believe everything you hear or see on the internet, make your own bow and test it   :lol:  Shooting over 1000 yards...OOOHHH MMMMYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!

ONE KEY PART "The ambient humidity can influence the results, as the natural materials absorb moisture. It was difficult to stabilize humidity during the tests, the range was between 35% and 55%  relative humidity. The flight bows, in actual use, would be “conditioned”  with heat to dry the bows before competitions. 6 Such treatment makes the materials stiffer per mass to boost arrow velocity. This was not done here, so the performance could still be improved. Experiments with conditioning will be carried out in the future."................meaning he didn't test in optimun conditions.

P.S. also please don't talk to me as if I am a kid.

Offline Gawin

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 03:54:23 pm »
0
thank you for helping me out everyone, but we may never be able to see our archery become effective again :(
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 04:08:50 pm by Gawin »

Offline Gawin

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 04:06:20 pm »
0
Why don't you learn to manual block and survive the two hand spammers?

See just as valid an arguement. Douche.
well maybe i like to shoot the shit out of two handed spammers and watch them bitch when they die and get us nerfed. And FYI most archers can manual block very well without being a two handed spammer using only 1 SLOT weapons and most of the time with 0 POWER STRIKE or WPF. so dont say archers cant manual block at all i see them blocking with hammers, sticks, spiked mace, and more 1 slotted weapons and actually killing with hammer, sticks, spiked mace, or 1 slotted weapons. so dont say they cant block because they have to learn how to survive douche bags who run after them and try to kill them.

Offline mandible/splinteryourjaw

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 05:18:18 pm »
+1
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.

Ahhhh, so you are trying to emulate RL, but only for archery!  Not that it matters what I believe, but that video represents a historian, pretending to be a scientist, trying to facilitate his position on archery effectiveness.  60m/s is reasonable for a starting speed on a low end bow (even long bow.)  52m/s at release and still going 42 m/s at 1000 yds (if I heard right) doesn't seem accurate.  Might as well throw straws at the ememy...or jarids/hammers (after all in RL they can be thrown thousands of yards with pinpoint accuracy...not just 100 feet as in video games)

Offline _Sebastian_

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 06:51:48 pm »
0
Dear Sebastian,

shooting the mundane longbow in cRPG with minimum powerdraw results in a starting velocity of 60m/s. Heirloomed longbows or more powerdraw(up to +4) result in more shot speed.

Check out this video where that bear shoots a high end longbow. They measure a starting velocity of 52m/s(stated at 1:20 in the video).

Thank you for your time.

hmm...

Now I added my own missile mod (real arrows and bolts are flying) to crpg
and the missilespeed looks realy realistic now (just with this ugly and huge flying_missile object it looks so unrealistic).

I measured the maxrage of my mw-longbow again and its definently over 300m/350m.
The problem is, that the shortbow (and other lower bows too) has almost the same rage as the longbow, its only a bit shorter.

So please lower/raise the missilespeed in relation to the bowdamage... the same should happen to the crossbows.
(by the way; the huntig crossbow has a higher missilespeed than the longbow... please fix this)

And...
how can you see the m/s of bows and xbows  :?: :?: :?:




« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 06:56:30 pm by _Sebastian_ »

Offline Leithlen

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 10:24:25 pm »
+1
Agreed.  A longbow should not fire an arrow slower than a light crossbow.  It should be about mid-range for a crossbow (maybe 50 missle speed).

I'm still not sure why arrow speed was reduced so drastically (or even adjusted at all).  It's not like archers were tearing up seige and battle.  If the longbow was too fast, it could have been reduced to 50 and been in line with everything else.
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Offline Keshian

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 12:17:15 am »
+2
I get that archery is supposed to be kind of an in-between class, between the now far shooting xbows and the close-up throwers.  But as a practical game balance matter it has become far and away the weakest ranged class because of several factors the game balancing crew didn't take into consideration:

-  Both throwers and xbowers can get away with much heavier armor and still have reasonable accuracy
-  The shoot speed decrease and the armor buff cut archers' damage by half on most targets, whereas both xbows/throwers have high pierce damage weapons and do     almost 3x as much damage as an archer for each comparative level of weapon (nomad bow=normal xbow=javelins).
-  The buff to thrower accuracy (throwing lances are now 149 compared to warbow 101) and decreased archer shoot speed has made hitting a target at mid-range roughly equal for thrower and archers but worse for both than xbows and only xbows can do longer range shots
-  Throwers have a significantly higher rate of fire than archers (roughly 3x), this combined with boosted accuracy allows throwers to completely dominate over archers at closer ranges

Not sure if it was  some twisted worry over a repetition of last strategus despite 4-5 serious nerfs to archery, but archery has definitely become the bastard child of ranged and needs to be rebalanced to being on par with other ranged classes.


P.S.  This is the first time I have seen any developers using real world examples to justify a change in cRPG.  This should be about game balance, stop foisting some misguided attempt at realism in an inherently unrealistic game, in order to justify messing up the game balance.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 12:27:57 am by Keshian »
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Offline Seawied

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2011, 12:30:33 am »
0
-  Both throwers and xbowers can get away with much heavier armor and still have reasonable accuracy
-  Throwers have a significantly higher rate of fire than archers (roughly 3x), this combined with boosted accuracy allows throwers to completely dominate over archers at closer ranges




Ok, regarding throwers: neither of these points are true. Throwers are neither more accurate, nor do they shoot 3x faster than archers.

Throwers also have a severe wpf malice from armor, and they are REQUIRED to have 13 wpf per point in power throw. This means a dedicated thrower with 8 PT must have 104 wpf after armor.

Throwers also have a much slower missile speed, making them only effective at close range. Additionally, the slow projectile speed makes it a less than ideal weapon to use when your allies are entangled with your enemies.

I have both a dedicated thrower, and an archer hybrid. Out of the two, the archer is much more ideal to use as a support character.


I'm of the opinion that arrow speed should be increased some. This isn't because the current value is unrealistic, but simply because I feel faster arrows make for better gameplay... but Kesh, your opinions on throwing are very misguided.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Mannhammer

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 03:26:15 am »
+4
Its not like archers were tearing up the score board. As far as I know, no archers are even ranked as the top 20 players of cRPG. How is crippling an already weak class even close to resembling establishing game balance?

My one simple question to chadz and the dev team is:

Why was archery nerfed again?

I would really like to know your reasons.

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Offline Paul

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 10:00:26 am »
-2
DaveUKR wanted it.

Offline Vibe

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 10:03:22 am »
0
Afaik they wanted it nerfed so strat wouldn't be an archerfest again.

Offline Arrowblood

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 10:05:35 am »
0
We need a xbow nerf no archery, Dave is oneshooting now everyone....

Offline Blondin

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Re: Archery Nerfed
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:15 am »
0
Xbow are to expensive for Strategus, no need to nerf it, nobody will use it.
As said Vibe, final goal is Strategus not k/d ratio in cRPG.