cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am

Title: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am
Lancers need some changes.

As people are starting to notice (and with a fair amount of satisfactions, I can say "I told you so!") cavalry has become more common after the last major patch. While the causes of this are debatable, I think its past due that we re-examine the lance.


There are two ways to use the lance: poking, and couching. Out of the two, poking is much stronger than couching.

Strengths of Poke-lancing

Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing

Strengths of Couch Lancing

Weaknesses of Couch Lancing


As you can clearly see, out of the two types of combat, poke-lancing is clearly superior in-game. This presents a number of problems.

First off, it should be noted that poke-lancing is a historically more-primitive than couched lances. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-TCYMLLhHU#t=6m03s)  Physics-wise, it makes little sense that poke-lancing deals nearly as much, if not just as much damage as a couched lance. Because the arm is extended, less force is transferred from the horse and rider, to the single point of the lance. A couched lance transfers significantly more force and, to quote historian Mike Loads, "horse, man, spear: a single projectile."

However, I am of the philosophy that balancing a game around history or reality is not always a good policy, but in this case, it would be a smart thing to do. Here is my reasoning.

As I noted earlier, a couched lance has significantly more drawbacks than lance-poking. Because of this, a skilled player has no reason to couch a lance over thrusting with it. Thrusting is safer, its just as deadly, is not difficult to do. Couching a lance, on the other-hand, is a high risk, high reward tactic. It is more balanced than poke-lancing.


Here are my suggestions

Implementing these changes would encourage other forms of mounted combat other than the use of lances.

A few disclaimers:
Yes, I do have a cavalry character, but this is by no means my only character. I have made these suggestions from my experiences of playing on both sides of the horse.
Yes, I do have a long history of encouraging cavalry nerfs.
Yes, I will jump down your throat if you say something stupid because you did not read the entire post.


That said, what are your thoughts?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: EponiCo on May 30, 2011, 02:26:59 am
If you look at it more exactly it is also the style of poking that has changed a lot. In horse vs. horse combat it's not about "jousting" i.e. frontal charges against each other, but getting behind or to the side of the enemy more like airplane dogfights.
Against infantry you mostly see high speed passes, though you also see people oneshotted by lance thrusts from near stationary horse and a single high speed pass is a kill in 90% of the cases.
The other factors in this are ofc the overmaneuverable horses with 25% more maneuver than every other horse.
I'd too think lowering lance damage would be worth a try, it doesn't have to be much, but they are currently more damaging than spears when heirloomed, while in fact they should be only usuable with the mass of the horse charge behind them.
If the effect is that only 70% die from high speed poke ... well, it's not that cavalry really struggles these days, like archers and others they'd just have to contend themselves with only injuring people every once in a while.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: BD_Guard_Bane on May 30, 2011, 02:47:58 am
Quote from: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am
Disable manual blocking on all lances

About this specifically, it might be interesting. It'd mean lancers would need a shield for blocking while on horseback, and that'd reduce their choice of other weapons because of the slot system.
It would change cav vs cav combat a lot - introduce a lot more risk for lancers.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Tzar on May 30, 2011, 02:49:18 am
Quote from: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am
Here are my suggestions
  • Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing
  • Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.

This suggestion is laughable thx for the quick laugh tho  :lol:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: MaHuD on May 30, 2011, 09:33:16 am
It sounds great, but I wouldn't want the lance to bounce of someone either or decrease the power of horsemen too much.

Also; the reason that cavalry is so strong is because it has a different, ever increasing scaling power influenced by numbers.

Explenation

A single cav is no match for any equally skilled, equally lvled player with any class.
Let's say the cav has a potential power of 0.5
and the infantry of 1.0
= Infantry wins

Two cavalry players can use more teamwork than two infantry players
But still the infantry should be able to deal with it if they have a weapon of atleast some lenght

Single Cav power: 0.7
Total Cav power: 1.4

Single Infantry power: 1.1 (One of the infantry can block, while the other stabs -> Increases combat effectiveness but note that it doesn't increase teamplay as much as cav does)
Infantry power: 2.2
= Inf wins

Four cavalry against four infantry should mean death for the infantry, unless they are all equiped against horses (spears, long 2h etc.)
Single Cav power: 2.0 (Double that of a single inf - Note that cav has a great mobility, and can be in comparision to infantry anywhere it wants at any time, it can also feint charge, backstab, run away at any time etc.)
Total Cav power: 8.0

Single Infantry Power: 1.4 (Can make a round formation, but would require poking/stabbing weapons which only a limited number of players have)
Total Infantry power: 5.6

= Cav wins

And so forth...

The numbers are made up, but it should give you an idea.

If you don't believe me, try it....  Play 1 vs 1 play 4 vs 4, 8 vs 8
 you will notice that the more players involved, the easier it will be for the cav.

Or join an organised big battle at native or any other mod and play with 60 cav vs 60 inf, the cav is going to win.

And yes it's still valid to test that in other mods, because it's not so much about the personal stats of the horseman,
 it's about the great potential in teamwork and formations, which infantry can't use up to the same level.

(click to show/hide)

The Problem of nerfing

Anyway, the point which I am trying to make is that if you decrease the capability of horseman less players will play cav, this means that not only does the cavalry individually play worse, it also recieves another hit on combat effectiveness due to a decrease in numbers.

Players will then shout that cav is underpowered, and it will get
 buffed = more players = superb strenght (overpowered) = nerf = less players = ultra nerf =
 etc. etc.


Conclusion

What I propose is that we look at a way to counter the teamplay of the cavalry rather than the individual stats.

Possible solutions
What might be an idea is to create a medium damage, low speed , medium range 1 slot, spear.
This way more players will be able to take something against/anti cavalry, but because of it's low speed it would/should be useless against anything but not against cavalry.

Besides that, Plazek suggested to lower the viewing (and thus stabbing) arc. This is actually a great idea, since it makes backstabbing in a group harder to pull off and probably cause the cav to bump against eachother more often.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: MouthnHoof on May 30, 2011, 09:51:18 am
Quote from: MaHuD on May 30, 2011, 09:33:16 am
It sounds great, but I wouldn't want the lance to bounce of someone either or decrease the power of horsemen too much.

Also; the reason that cavalry is so strong is because it has a different, ever increasing scaling power influenced by numbers.
...
bla
...
WTF ?!
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Digglez on May 30, 2011, 11:48:00 am
I would love to playtest the suggested changes to see how they pan out.  I think in the long run it would prove benifical.
The only maps I EVER even consider using are the perfectly flat maps where I can get a courser up to mach1 and couch someone that doesnt see it coming, otherwise its suicide
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 30, 2011, 03:18:07 pm
100% agreed with Seawied. Given your long history of cav nerf posts, your suggestions really are well-tought and backed up this time.

Maybe the most important nerf to lancing should be reducing the attack angle first IMO.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Dezilagel on May 30, 2011, 05:08:20 pm
(click to show/hide)


...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on May 30, 2011, 05:20:15 pm
first of all this game is called mount and lade, not mount and nerf the lance so hard that eveyone will go HA and be a my old friend like hell so that will be nerfed too and this game will suck.
but i do agree that couching should be buffed.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: EponiCo on May 30, 2011, 05:55:59 pm
MaHuD you have some good points.
I disagree on the 1vs1 potential though, ofc a footman against a rider going for the attack will always get the hit in first against the rider and the horse (which can't block even if the rider manages to make that instant switch) with the right tool, otoh a rider playing it save (feigned attack) will never be hit by a footman. Just a stalemate.
It's why it always takes ages to finish off those last surviving horsemen, because like archers on a roof they are camping an unreachable spot (the saddle).
Apart from a few things cav can do that infantry can't (and is balanced by other weaknesses), their high speed is indeed king for teamwork.
Where a footman can usually a reach only 3 or 4 of engagements in a given time where he can endanger the enemy a rider can reach say 12.
You can use it to backstab people who are unaware, no real teamwork mind you, but a kill is a kill. And this really scales with numbers, with 20 2h on a map you still only have to keep track of 5 of them at a time, with 20 riders you have to keep track of nearly all of them.
But you can also use this speed to gang on enemies or help allies who are ganged, where a footman needs to waste a lot of time running and risks to be ganged himself if his allies die too fast. Since people tend to die in battles there's a lot of 3vs2 or 2vs4 situations where you can just show up and tip the scales. But that's just for the open field, most maps include terrain that is horrible for cav, hills that completely stop the horse, tight spaces where you can hardly get in and often the tactic is then just stay in those areas. I don't mind urban maps every once in a while, but some of the village maps have a really big disadvantage for the cav in one team while the team that spawns in the open is still very vulnerable to enemy cav.

edit: Still I dislike the idea of the 1 slot spear. If you pick a 1 slot shield and a war spear or awlpike you should have no problem of defending vs. cav at all (unless they catch you while you are in a duel, but then even a sheated pike wont help you). If you take a huscarl or steel shield, well, deal with it. Can't have nigh invulnerability against everyone.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: MaHuD on May 30, 2011, 06:06:43 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on May 30, 2011, 05:08:20 pm
(click to show/hide)


...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?
Yes. Also against 3 if you don't mind.

@ Eponico,

Aye, the 1 slot spear may not sound that great.
And like you said there is a lot of maps which don't give suffecient cover, but if there would be more cover the archers would be more stronger as wel.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 30, 2011, 07:34:17 pm
Usually, completly open maps aren't so great for cav (they are good in comparison of most maps though). The best maps for cav feature something flat plains don't have : things to hide behind and remain unseen. On this matter, archers and cavarly are exact opposites : Cav love to move without being seen, and archers love seeing without being reachable. That's why the worse possible thing for horses aren't buildings (to an extent, of course), it's hills that slow down the horses, barriers, little walls and those sorts of things that don't let them pass but still let ranged see them and shoot at them.

I'm all for more open, battlefield-looking maps and less of this urban trash we got in every game. Plains force teamwork, increase the use of pikes, shieldwalls, formations... All those things that urban maps fail to encourage.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on May 31, 2011, 12:47:00 am
I agree with OP's general idea: that lancing is a bit over powered at the moment. The heavy lance allows me to outreach almost any opponent, while simultaneously delivering a massive amount of damage. It's lack of speed is no drawback, for I control when and where my attack happens; I do not have to base my actions off the actions of my target and compensate appropriatly. My horse is fast, maneuverable, and quiet, thus I appear out of nowhere and deliver one-shot kills to unwary people.

The issue here is the nature of cavalry in this game, as I have said repeatedly. They're ninjas. They die easily, lacking armor and much HP, and thus compensate for thish by being very very fast. In the case of one hand/2 hand cavalrymen, this doesn't overpower them so much, for they REALLY have to close with their target--like, be on top of them. The longer a cavalryman's lance, however, the greater the distance between himself and his target, and the less chance his target has of realizing he's actually a target.

Even if he does know he's a target, defending himself may be a challenge, for the Heavy Lance is VERY LONG.

I STRONGLY SUPPORT the disabling of manual blocking on all lances, and a damage decrease.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 31, 2011, 01:02:07 am
I think what would solve everything is if you could accidentally lance your own horse.  :lol:

I normally like the challenge of fighting cav, and when I get killed, oh well. Everything kills you in one hit these days, so horses speed bonus doesn't seem particularly special. The only times I've felt there was a problem is when the lancer has their lance couched on the right side, and jump over to the left, and they somehow thrust the lance through the neck and head of their horse to run me through. Being able to lance out your horses brain by accident if you aren't careful I think would fix everything right up.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Casimir on May 31, 2011, 01:17:19 am
if you want to kill cav get a long spear / pike.

If your going to nerf it that much, a reduce price of horses significantly, so that you can upkeep them with decent armour and make the lances back to their old speed

furthermore all weapons should be dropable on high damage hits.

also bows should have a chance of snapping, and xbows cracking.

you could also drop throwing weapon and hit yourself! WATCH OUT!
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Riddaren on May 31, 2011, 03:27:48 am
(click to show/hide)

That is very true.

(click to show/hide)

Try down blocking or jump aside and slash the horse or the rider when you are about to get couched.
When you have become a good player you will realize that melee cavalry is of no threat if they come alone.
You will become a greater threat to melee cavalry than they are to you and they will avoid you once they start to recognize you.

That's a fact, not an opinion.
If I see Phyrex (a good 2H player) and he sees me I know it's just a waste of time to stay around, so I choose a new target.
If all infantry players were that good, melee cavalry would become obsolete. A buff would be needed. Then I would suggest you would have to both down block and up block incoming attacks from the lance.
It's too bad we are not there already but still in the "nerf this, nerf that" phase of the game, like everyone are noobs. I'm dissapointed.

Fact is that 5 good HA's would humiliate the top 10 infantry players on any map. Still there is more whine about melee cavalry. I'm not saying HA is OP but HA is superior to all other classes on most maps. Sure, they don't do much damage but they are still the winners. They are in command and can spend minutes to get down a guy without having to worry about themselves.

It's also interesting to see that people are still spreading out like hell on all maps instead of using formations. Sure, it' just public server battles, but if that was changed and people would start to really teamplay with formations and stuff melee cavalry would not be able to pick of players one by one like they do now. Melee cavalry would be too predictable and easily confronted alone and would also need to start teamplaying, which there is very little need of right now.

So instead of nerfing and making the game slower and less skill based, start to discuss countertactics and make use of formations already.
You don't need many people for that either. Instead of running alone, group up with players of other classes and protect each other.
Protecting others and making kills together is probably most fun (atleast I think so), but more often you see everyone just pursuing kills on their own not caring much for each other...

Remember this; There are always ways to counter something that is considered OP and suddenly it is not OP anymore. WITHOUT any stat changes.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 04:36:16 am
Quote from: Casimir on May 31, 2011, 01:17:19 am
if you want to kill cav get a long spear / pike.

If your going to nerf it that much, a reduce price of horses significantly, so that you can upkeep them with decent armour and make the lances back to their old speed

furthermore all weapons should be dropable on high damage hits.

also bows should have a chance of snapping, and xbows cracking.

you could also drop throwing weapon and hit yourself! WATCH OUT!

this discussion is about couch lancing vs poke-lancing, not about cav v infantry. Focus on internal cav balance.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Butan on May 31, 2011, 04:44:21 am
Quote from: Riddaren on May 31, 2011, 03:27:48 am
So instead of nerfing and making the game slower and less skill based, start to discuss countertactics and make use of formations already.
You don't need many people for that either. Instead of running alone, group up with players of other classes and protect each other.
Protecting others and making kills together is probably most fun (atleast I think so), but more often you see everyone just pursuing kills on their own not caring much for each other...

Remember this; There are always ways to counter something that is considered OP and suddenly it is not OP anymore. WITHOUT any stat changes.


+1
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Bryggan on May 31, 2011, 06:12:17 am
Following the infantry crowd doesn't help much, because the cav just charges through killing whoever doesn't see them in time, while the rest of us get driven over by our own pursuing cavalry.  For infantry to run in formation tight enough to prevent cav from running through the middle would take a lot of practice, expecially as there are no leaders nor assigned units.  It would be great if we could put pikemen in the front, 1h in the middle and 2 handers in the back, but as it is now we'd just be torn apart by the archers while we try figure out who is where and continually re-form. As it is I don't mind the constant threat from cav, though it would be nicer if a drive by thrust popped at you with a limp wristed single hand held spear wasn't an insta-kill.  You should earn insta kills with the risky couch, kind of like archers need head shots for their instakills. 

Of course without thrust cav vs cav would take forever.  It would be nice if it were worth it for everyone to have a secondary half ass skill then cav could couch with lances and have sword for close work; archers could have their bardiches to defend themselves and 1 hand could throw or have pikes for cav. 2 handers already have their X-bows.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Bjarky on May 31, 2011, 07:08:46 am
It is false to say that thrust is insta-kill and equal to the couch, usually kills with the thrust attack type get done, because of the enemy already has taken hits from others or is low lvl or has very low armor.
On top of that, you have to hit the head, not the body, a full life medium-high lvl will survive the body thrust hit (have tried it with 140 pole wpf, 7ps and 28p dmg lance without shield and average speed).
If u see a high armor and high lvl full hp enemy, not even the headshot will insta kill him.
And all this has to happen when the enemy is unaware of u, if they are, they simply block u or avoid the stab.
Only high skill cav can do more than this, but if your average like me, wich most cav are, it isn't as easy as people think, u should try it yourselfes.

On the other side, when couching, i haven't seen any person survive a couche hit, there's probably a chance for that, but the person would have to have very high amounts of hp and armor.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on May 31, 2011, 07:50:02 am
what i see a lot is that some guy in black armor tries to own everybody and isn't afraid of anyone, but than he doesn't have any head armor and i'm like.  :shock:. i run up to him with my lance and bam hes dead. just because he doesn't have head armor and if i would'vd couched his chest i don't know if i would've killed him
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 10:52:21 am
Quote from: Bjarky on May 31, 2011, 07:08:46 am
It is false to say that thrust is insta-kill and equal to the couch, usually kills with the thrust attack type get done, because of the enemy already has taken hits from others or is low lvl or has very low armor.
On top of that, you have to hit the head, not the body, a full life medium-high lvl will survive the body thrust hit (have tried it with 140 pole wpf, 7ps and 28p dmg lance without shield and average speed).
If u see a high armor and high lvl full hp enemy, not even the headshot will insta kill him.
And all this has to happen when the enemy is unaware of u, if they are, they simply block u or avoid the stab.
Only high skill cav can do more than this, but if your average like me, wich most cav are, it isn't as easy as people think, u should try it yourselfes.

On the other side, when couching, i haven't seen any person survive a couche hit, there's probably a chance for that, but the person would have to have very high amounts of hp and armor.

With that much power strike, the damage difference between a thrust and a couched lance is negligibility. A couched lance also doesn't always kill in one hit. They actually don't need that good of armor or that high of hp to survive a hit. I've been experimenting with this immensely lately, and the chances of a victim surviving a couched lance are higher than I originally thought as well. If an opponent has mid ranged armor and is running away from the couched lance, they are very likely to survive.

You are correct though, a stab is easily blocked, which I did mention in the original post. If an infantryman has a weapon than isn't long enough to counter a couched lance, couching a lance is the correct choice in tactic. However, because of the animation, the number of weapons able to counter a couched lance is significantly higher than the number of weapons able to deal with the reach of a thrusted lance. A short spear with a shield is long enough to stop a horse safely when the rider is couching a lance. If the rider is using a thrust-lance, a short spear cannot safely stop the horse against a skilled rider.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Banok on May 31, 2011, 12:15:21 pm
copy and pasta

Quote from: Banok on May 30, 2011, 03:02:00 am
disabling [manual block] on all would be extremely stupid since lancers can block with a shield anyway. and no shield lancers already gimping ourselves since we dont get 360 degree blocking forcefield. (I would love to see proper 2h lance animations and increased speed/reach than current 1h ones)


as a poke lancer im actually fine with nerfing it, but why in gods gracious pjamas disable manual blocking?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 12:48:14 pm
Quote from: Banok on May 31, 2011, 12:15:21 pm
copy and pasta

as a poke lancer im actually fine with nerfing it, but why in gods gracious pjamas disable manual blocking?

I think it's not the right answer but a nerf is still needed. This thread is about balancing couching and pokeing styles.

I think there's a problem when lancers can bump "slash" infantry, with a lance. Or even bump to the ground and have enough maneuver to stop, come back and score a hit (usually lethal despite low speed) on the defenseless enemy. For example, Torben does both.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 01:01:51 pm
Quote from: Riddaren on May 31, 2011, 03:27:48 am
Fact is that 5 good HA's would humiliate the top 10 infantry players on any map. Still there is more whine about melee cavalry. I'm not saying HA is OP but HA is superior to all other classes on most maps. Sure, they don't do much damage but they are still the winners. They are in command and can spend minutes to get down a guy without having to worry about themselves.

Tis true. 2 HA's can take down an entire unit of infantry, shields and all, very easily. Shields do bugger all when you can circle 2 HAs at opposite points. It's just you rarely see 2 HA's working together in pub games :P When I have had it happen though, it's been a lethal combination. On an open plains map me and another HA took down the full 10 infantry before our infantry even got there.

I disagree with the disabling manual block. Plenty of people use a lance on foot and that's when the manual block becomes useful. I've had my horse downed and have fought and killed several people with a lance on foot in the past. So unless there is a way to disable it ONLY on horseback. Then it's a no no.

As for the argument that spears aren't long enough to counter heavy lances. They are. If a lolstabbing 2H can do it (seen that plenty of times) then a 1 slot medium length spear could as well. It's all about positioning, but it's relatively easy as a footman to counter a heavy lance with a normal spear. I think maybe creating a 1slot medium range spear could be a good alternative to nerfing cav to hell.

Quote from: Bryggan on May 31, 2011, 06:12:17 am
Following the infantry crowd doesn't help much, because the cav just charges through killing whoever doesn't see them in time, while the rest of us get driven over by our own pursuing cavalry.  For infantry to run in formation tight enough to prevent cav from running through the middle would take a lot of practice, expecially as there are no leaders nor assigned units. 

The reason it doesn't work is that very few people are willing to take some anti-cav weapons. The average player will not jeopardise his build in any way. The best players often change their equipment to adapt to the situation. So if your team is being owned by cav, take a pike and dedicate yourself to stopping it. That way you'll help your team a lot. But few people are willing to do this. Instead they are happier just continually dying until the next map comes a long and the teams get switched up.

There are plenty of ways to combat cav. Just very few people do what's best for the good of the team rather than individual K/D.

As an HA I recognise the threat of cavalry. So I prioritise my targets:
1. Take cav down.
2. Pikemen (because they take out our cav).
3. Archers (also a danger to cav).
4. 2H
5. If I can, shielders.

Even if it means I don't get a lot of kills sometimes, I can happily sit their knowing I've shot down every enemy cavalryman on the map and often in areas of the map where they are useless for the vast majority of it. There will also be times when I look at the highest scoring player (often 2h) and I hunt them down and pump arrows into them. That way they are ruined as a threat and reduce the possibility of that team winning (I once got HA banned on the ENG server for doing this :( )

If archers and pikemen or other players in general did the same, then it would be a lot better.

I wish there was some way to make horses with riders on count for kills when you down them  :(
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Elmetiacos on May 31, 2011, 01:14:58 pm
The thing that bothers me about "poke" lancing is that you can do it at such a ridiculous angle. Cavalry seem to be able to skewer you (or each other) with the lance poking out at 90 degrees, perpendicular to the direction that the horse is going. The flipside, of course, is that pikes and spears seem to be able to stop horses from the side, too. If there were some way of fixing this, I'd welcome it.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 01:20:52 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 01:01:51 pm
As for the argument that spears aren't long enough to counter heavy lances. They are. If a lolstabbing 2H can do it (seen that plenty of times)


Maybe it happens, but in all seriousness it's only the fault of a wrong timing from the lancer. If both are playing perfectly, the lancer always wins. Even an heavy lance used on foot has less reach than an heavy lance used on a horse and that's fail.


Furthermore, I don't understand why are cav so high in priority for you to kill. You just said they aren't that dangerous, and they certainly are of little to no threat against an HA, but yet they are your priority target ? Wtf dude... Moreover, getting one's horse shot and killed in one or two arrows without any mean of defense is the single most annoying thing in this game...
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 01:22:58 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 01:20:52 pm

Maybe it happens, but in all seriousness it's only the fault of a wrong timing from the lancer. If both are playing perfectly, the lancer always wins. Even an heavy lance used on foot has less reach than an heavy lance used on a horse and that's fail.


Furthermore, I don't understand why are cav so high in priority for you to kill. You just said they aren't that dangerous, and they certainly are of little to no threat against an HA, but yet they are your priority target ? Wtf dude... Moreover, getting one's horse shot and killed in one or two arrows without any mean of defense is the single most annoying thing in this game...

Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust. On the other hand a footman can easily side step a horse and get a good spear thrust. It's quite easy to do. The reach of a heavy lance only helps against people who don't really know what they are doing.

They are high priority because of the reasons stated above. The reason they are dangerous is because most players aren't willing to combat cav. They just keep on going and hope that the cav won't pick them out. However, they are actually very easy to combat. Like I said, it's just most players don't want to compromise their build. But like any build, if you want to combat something you have to adapt. If the enemy has shit loads of archers, you take a shield. If you lose your shield and are fighting 2h, you have to learn how to manual block. If you are an archer and get chased down, you have to find a weapon. So why shouldn't infantry, if there are cavalry killing them, adapt to take down the cavalry? It just seems like they are unwilling to do this.

Yes but if there were more HA who focused on cav, there'd be less cav  :P I think HA's main purpose is to kill cavalry, there's not a lot of point attacking infantry as an HA, unless you have nothing else to do. HA's are definitely a good way of taking cavalry down, but can also be killed relatively easily themselves.

EDIT:

As an add on. This heavy lance thing is also a bit null. The huge amount of lancers use the light lance, it's faster and the shorter length doesn't matter, very few infantry take a polearm to combat cav with so the heavy lances length doesn't make much difference. If you gave infantry a 1 slot, medium length spear. Hell, make the war spear 1 slot again for god's sake. Then that would solve a lot of problems and cavalry would have to be a lot more careful.

O and I would also support perhaps reducing the lance angle. Not to the extent it was previously, that was stupid, but a reduction of some sort is in order.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Lech on May 31, 2011, 01:57:35 pm
Lance from horseback should deal the same amount of damage as spear used with shield, which means not much. Right now, spears used with shield have damage penalty, and lances used with just 1 hand don't have said penalty. Also, reducing damage of lances and reducing their length by 5 (10 for heavy) would be good.

If it's possible, reduce damage from couched lance by fair amount (to make it not one hit kill wonder) and make it easier to perform (changing animation would be good solution).

Also, reduce the angle for poking and implement some sweet spots for lances. Disabling blocking for all lances would be welcome too.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
I go with some points you stated, but I don't agree on some like:

-'Disable manual blocking on all lances'- every other weapon, even the smallest sword can manual block a lance from full speed, so that would be kind of unbalanced!

-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!

-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless :D

-'Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.'- you can even couch lance on a sumpter horse or plated charger, so it's fine
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:20:24 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on May 30, 2011, 05:08:20 pm
(click to show/hide)


...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?

do you use the dagger?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: LordRichrich on May 31, 2011, 02:22:16 pm
Nerf the lances speed and damage etc but give it a chance to crush through down blocks. Not a big one, just say 1 in every 15 or 20. Because more people are realising they can block down to not be killed by cav. Hell, I even sometimes walk around with down block and it saves my life.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 03:19:31 pm
Quote from: LordRichrich on May 31, 2011, 02:22:16 pm
Nerf the lances speed

Heavy lance's speed got nerfed by -10 already lat patch, I think it#s enough. Heavy lance is the slowest weapon ingame already.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Lech on May 31, 2011, 03:26:10 pm
Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm

-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!


Great Lance can't poke. Last time i checked it was lance too.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 03:51:25 pm
Quote from: Lech on May 31, 2011, 03:26:10 pm
Great Lance can't poke. Last time i checked it was lance too.

omg yes, the great lance and jousting lance
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 04:00:28 pm
Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 03:19:31 pm
Heavy lance's speed got nerfed by -10 already lat patch, I think it#s enough. Heavy lance is the slowest weapon ingame already.

Yeah heavy lance is nastily slow. It takes a bit of learning to judge your strikes right.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Dezilagel on May 31, 2011, 04:49:03 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 01:22:58 pm
Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust.

Hahahaaa... ha... You play HA right?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 05:00:18 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on May 31, 2011, 04:49:03 pm
Hahahaaa... ha... You play HA right?

Yup...but I've played as a lancer, archer and footman in the past. HA is just my most current build.

A war spear is perfectly adequate to take down any cav man except maybe the very best (and they should be hard to take down, they are the best after all).

All this bull about reach means jack all. It's very easy to position yourself to get a good hit on a horseman. When horsemen get those insta kills, it's usually at full speed charging through a group of infantry, or taking out unaware infantry. Slower speed lancing often takes more hits to kill someone unless they are lightly armoured or have taken damage. Either way, it's still easy to take out cav with a war spear.

Besides lots of cav will shy away as soon as they see a long point stick being waved at them. If a few people took a spear and went with the group, then there'd be no problem.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Lech on May 31, 2011, 05:46:08 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 05:00:18 pm
A war spear is perfectly adequate to take down any cav man except maybe the very best (and they should be hard to take down, they are the best after all).

Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 05:53:50 pm
Quote from: Lech on May 31, 2011, 05:46:08 pm
Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.

I've seen plenty of horseman die in one hit from a war spear if you aim at the rider (easy to do). That speed bonus also works for the guy with the spear on the ground you know  :wink:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on May 31, 2011, 06:14:48 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 05:53:50 pm
I've seen plenty of horseman die in one hit from a war spear if you aim at the rider (easy to do). That speed bonus also works for the guy with the spear on the ground you know  :wink:
but by doing this you have to strike later so less range... another disadvantage
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 07:12:36 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 01:22:58 pm
Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust. On the other hand a footman can easily side step a horse and get a good spear thrust. It's quite easy to do. The reach of a heavy lance only helps against people who don't really know what they are doing.

Things just don't work like that. Any decent lancer knows the best way to poke safely is to lance on the side, with a 90° angle, to have the greatest distance possible between your horse and the target, and it's easy even with the crappier horses. That way it is completly impossible for any weapon under the size of the heavy lance to land the hit first. Nobody except novice lancers position their horse head closer to the enemy than themselves when they can (and they usually do).

And that's exactly why lancing is broken. Ever heard of people able to do stuff like wielding a very long stick with one hand, completly deployed on the side of your horse at top speed, and hitting an unmoving target without falling from the horse ? The lance fix that was implemented just after the patch was brutal, but it was a move in the good direction.




Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless :D

You have a tiny range and your ability to turn is greatly reduced when you couch your lance.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 07:48:46 pm
Quote from: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 07:12:36 pm
Things just don't work like that. Any decent lancer knows the best way to poke safely is to lance on the side, with a 90° angle, to have the greatest distance possible between your horse and the target, and it's easy even with the crappier horses. That way it is completly impossible for any weapon under the size of the heavy lance to land the hit first. Nobody except novice lancers position their horse head closer to the enemy than themselves when they can (and they usually do).

And that's exactly why lancing is broken. Ever heard of people able to do stuff like wielding a very long stick with one hand, completly deployed on the side of your horse at top speed, and hitting an unmoving target without falling from the horse ? The lance fix that was implemented just after the patch was brutal, but it was a move in the good direction.




You have a tiny range and your ability to turn is greatly reduced when you couch your lance.

Which is why I agreed to the lancing angle being reduced (as long as its sensible and not excessive), as well as making war spears 1 slot. I think that would be an adequate enough thing to make lancing more difficult.

Sorry but the 'ever heard of argument' is a little bull in a game. Ever heard of a guy in full plate with a giant 2 handed sword jumping the height of a horse, swinging his sword and killing the rider? Didn't think so. There's 1000 examples of things in the game that don't happen in real life.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 07:51:45 pm
Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
I go with some points you stated, but I don't agree on some like:

-'Disable manual blocking on all lances'- every other weapon, even the smallest sword can manual block a lance from full speed, so that would be kind of unbalanced!

The reasoning behind this simple. First off, you cannot block with the couched mode only lances. Secondly, it make lancers have to choose a shield, adding more risk to a lance charge and add a different factor to the game play. Lastly, it would be realistic. Lances were unwieldy weapons; they were not a staff you can twirl around easily and block anything and everything.
Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!
as other people have stated, you are incorrect on this issue.
Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless :D
No. Thrusting a lance is still the much safer option of the two. As I mentioned earlier, the number of weapons that can safely stop a horseman couching a lance is much greater than the number of weapons that can safely stop an extended poke-lance. The animation of couching a lance reduces the length of the weapon while the animation to poke someone with a lance extends the reach significantly. We are talking a difference of over 60 length here.

Quote from: Toffi on May 31, 2011, 02:17:38 pm
-'Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.'- you can even couch lance on a sumpter horse or plated charger, so it's fine
While you can on a plated charger, one thing I have noticed is that you have to be going at full speed, and a slight change in ground texture will often drop you out of couched mode. One place I noticed this particularly was the classic map "Field by the river." I was using a steppe horse for the experiment, going at full speed towards an infantry with no spear holding the bridge closer to the castle. The kill should have been a given due to the lack of cover and the infantryman's lack of weapon options. However, when the ground changed to the bridge texture, I was knocked out of couched lance mode. I immediately turned around and tried again several times only to discover that it was impossible with a steppe horse and a riding skill of 5 to perform the couch at this location due to the texture difference.

This is just one of a few examples where I noticed the speed requirement for a couch needed to be changed. As stated before, the lower speed would deal less damage as well, and would not be an instant-kill. Lancing at higher speeds would clearly be beneficial.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chaos on May 31, 2011, 07:57:53 pm
Quote from: Lech on May 31, 2011, 05:46:08 pm
Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.

I'm going to assume this is a 1v1 between a lancer with a heavy lance and an infantryman with a war spear or similar length polearm.
First of all, lets play out the lancer is circling an infantryman scenario. In order to get the sweet spot 90 degree angle on the spear guy, the horse is moving at a heavily reduced speed and probably will have a speed bonus that brings the cav guy to damage somewhere near, if not less than, that of the infantryman. If you manage to stop the horse (something that bad cav lets happen but pro cav rarely will in this situation) then that horse should be dead by your hand regardless of how little damage your weapon deals (this is assuming a horse less armored than the destrier). If its not, then someone interfered or you messed up somehow. Realistically, the infantryman rarely stops the horse in this situation. The easiest way to fight this horseman is simply to walk towards him while holding down block. Congratulations, you managed to defeat him. If the cav tries to bump-poke you then stop his horse and finish him. If he hits your down block then wait for the ding and then spam poke his ass.

Now lets assume that the lancer is taking the longer and more strenuous route of backing up in this 1v1 to gain some speed in each of his passes while charging our hero spear infantryman. Its all a matter of patience, really. Downblock that sucker until he makes a mistake, like getting off his horse to fight you on foot. Or maybe he'll try to bump lance, in which case you can stop his horse before he lances your face. Similarly, couching will get that horse stopped or killed because a 150 length polearm will outreach the couched lance.

If you ever find that a lancer is charging you and you dont have a pointy stick handy, downblock and jump out of his way, then spam at his horse's ass. If youre quick about it, chances are decent that on one of those passes, that horse will be moving too slowly and you just removed a nice portion of its hindquarters. Damage adds up.

On the subject of lancing vs. couching, I don't see why they would need to be balanced. The lance thrust is the lancer's bread and butter. Couching is a tool in the lancer's arsenal, the answer to infantry that thinks it can down block forever in an open field without paying attention to the lancer that wants to play. And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

Making the war spear 1 slot isnt such a great solution, that would allow for lance and shield cavalry to take a war spear with them as well. And the war spear would become the one weapon just about every archer and heavy/arbalest xbowman takes with them as a backup melee.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 08:02:07 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on May 31, 2011, 07:48:46 pm
Which is why I agreed to the lancing angle being reduced (as long as its sensible and not excessive), as well as making war spears 1 slot. I think that would be an adequate enough thing to make lancing more difficult.

Sorry but the 'ever heard of argument' is a little bull in a game. Ever heard of a guy in full plate with a giant 2 handed sword jumping the height of a horse, swinging his sword and killing the rider? Didn't think so. There's 1000 examples of things in the game that don't happen in real life.

Well, we came to an agreement then. The "ever heard of" part was to demonstrate that it doesn't do with the realism point of view neither. Some things are unbalanced but realistic, here it's not the case. In fact if things were realistic heavy cav would rape everything. As it stands there's no heavy cav in the game, too much upkeep  :mrgreen:

Reducing the attack angle allowed for poke cavalry would effectively balance it with other kinds of cavalry (couched lance and 1h/2h) that lack it's lateral range.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on May 31, 2011, 08:03:16 pm
Quote from: Chaos on May 31, 2011, 07:57:53 pm
And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

If you get me the formula that shows this, I would greatly appreciate it, but I think what you are referring to is the potential damage done by a cavalry player in native. Because power strike isn't at a set value like in native multi-player, poking does nearly as much damage as a couched lance in my experience.

When at an obtainable couched lance speed,
A couched lance will kill an infantryman in 1-2 hits, with 1 being more common
A poke-lance with sufficient power strike will kill an infantryman in 1-2 hits, with 2 being the more common number.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chaos on May 31, 2011, 09:06:47 pm
I've never seen the equation, only heard tips from people on the old M&B forum. In any case, I prefer the poke fights when on either side of the horse. Mostly because fighting things that are literally impossible to block doesnt sound very fun, and fighting couches is a matter of having the reach to beat it or not. So for gameplay's sake, poking should stay the lancer's bread and butter
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Bryggan on June 01, 2011, 02:09:23 am
I think things would be fine if infantry could work together. A few shielders to block the lance and a pike or two to stop the horse and then everyone hack the crap out of the guy.  unfortuantely cavalry knows this, so they just circle to the rear so we all expose our backs to their archers.  Then people get impatient and start running for cover or blindly charge the enemy and we're all separated again.

I suppose the best option is to truly put the fear of death into everyone.  Then people will work together and you won't have random cavalry guy charging in trying for 2-3 kills before he gets offed.  So imagine if every time you died there was, say a 30% chance your char would be deleted, and all your weaps and armour would go to the victors?  I would hate it myself.  Oh, and we'd need a surrender key.  Then you would spend the next games polishing armour and shovelling horse shit until you earned enough for your ransom.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Banok on June 01, 2011, 03:40:20 am
Quote from: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 12:48:14 pm
I think there's a problem when lancers can bump "slash" infantry, with a lance. Or even bump to the ground and have enough maneuver to stop, come back and score a hit (usually lethal despite low speed) on the defenseless enemy. For example, Torben does both.

true but then all bump slashing even with 1handers is totally retarded, only balanced by the fact its quite hard to do.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Diavolo on June 01, 2011, 09:43:35 am
I think there are 2 main problems with cavalry right now.

Horses make too little sound. (you can get ninjaed now, you should be able to hear in decent time before he reaches you that he is getting closer, so you can be prepared)

Bumpslash is possible. (bump slashing is extremely annoying, dishonourable, impossible to defend against and unrealistic)


If these 2 things were fixed infantry only need to downblock to defend against cavalry. Currently most cavalry kills are either people getting hit in the back because they didnt notice the horse or people downblocking and should be immortal, but getting bumpslashed and instakilled. If it was inpossible to bumpslash everyone with something they can block with are actually immortal if they hold downblock and face the cavalry. Its a bit worse against 1h/shield cav but against lancers its extremely easy to defend oneself if the cavalry isnt able to bump you or bumpslash you.

So my proposition to all of this: Make it so that whenever cavalry bumps someone, their horse also get damaged a tiny tiny tiny bit. Then when the horse gets damaged the player should not be able to strike for say 1 second. However, they should be able to block. (atleast if they have a shield) That way people will bump a lot less, and bumpslashing become inpossible. Then all lancers can be countered by a peasant with a stick.

Sound level of horses should be increased a bit to make hearing them easier, so people have time to get into immortal form before the lancer gets there.

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 01, 2011, 09:58:14 am
The idea of cavalry being unable to attack after their horse takes damage is an interesting idea, but 1 second would be much too long. You might want to take that one to the taleworlds website.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: MaHuD on June 01, 2011, 10:18:57 am
So you are saying that Cav shouldn't be able to bumpslash, shouldn't be able to ninja and shouldn't be able to lance or couch lance someone?

Bumpslash is easy to avoid, and a good way of dealing with someone who is just blocking down all the time...
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Vlad007 on June 02, 2011, 03:10:56 am
I think that poke lancing is pretty much bs. As a jouster the impact at speed with a lance has to be couched other wise you have no power and the lance gets smashed out of your hand, its that simple. I think that a heavy lance poked should not out reach a  couched great lance as it makes the great lance redundant. 1/4 or 1/2 the speed component is a good solution for poke lancing
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 02, 2011, 03:16:00 am
To be honest, I prefer a slower speed lance. Slower speed= longer your attack is extended= more damage opportunity.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 02, 2011, 04:47:33 am
Down with ridiculous lancing attack angles!

The damage is ok.
The range is fine.
The speed is acceptable.
Everything about the lance is alright.

Or rather it would be if the angle of attack had any semblance to reality.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Lech on June 02, 2011, 10:03:59 am
Quote from: Chaos on May 31, 2011, 07:57:53 pm
I'm going to assume this is a 1v1 between a lancer with a heavy lance and an infantryman with a war spear or similar length polearm.
First of all, lets play out the lancer is circling an infantryman scenario. In order to get the sweet spot 90 degree angle on the spear guy, the horse is moving at a heavily reduced speed and probably will have a speed bonus that brings the cav guy to damage somewhere near, if not less than, that of the infantryman. If you manage to stop the horse (something that bad cav lets happen but pro cav rarely will in this situation) then that horse should be dead by your hand regardless of how little damage your weapon deals (this is assuming a horse less armored than the destrier). If its not, then someone interfered or you messed up somehow. Realistically, the infantryman rarely stops the horse in this situation. The easiest way to fight this horseman is simply to walk towards him while holding down block. Congratulations, you managed to defeat him. If the cav tries to bump-poke you then stop his horse and finish him. If he hits your down block then wait for the ding and then spam poke his ass.

Now lets assume that the lancer is taking the longer and more strenuous route of backing up in this 1v1 to gain some speed in each of his passes while charging our hero spear infantryman. Its all a matter of patience, really. Downblock that sucker until he makes a mistake, like getting off his horse to fight you on foot. Or maybe he'll try to bump lance, in which case you can stop his horse before he lances your face. Similarly, couching will get that horse stopped or killed because a 150 length polearm will outreach the couched lance.

If you ever find that a lancer is charging you and you dont have a pointy stick handy, downblock and jump out of his way, then spam at his horse's ass. If youre quick about it, chances are decent that on one of those passes, that horse will be moving too slowly and you just removed a nice portion of its hindquarters. Damage adds up.

On the subject of lancing vs. couching, I don't see why they would need to be balanced. The lance thrust is the lancer's bread and butter. Couching is a tool in the lancer's arsenal, the answer to infantry that thinks it can down block forever in an open field without paying attention to the lancer that wants to play. And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

Making the war spear 1 slot isnt such a great solution, that would allow for lance and shield cavalry to take a war spear with them as well. And the war spear would become the one weapon just about every archer and heavy/arbalest xbowman takes with them as a backup melee.

1 slot unsheatable warspear would become no-no choice for ranged troops.

So you are basically stating that war spear user have to be passive and wait for mistake to win the fight ? Not really fair for someone that by design should be capable of dealing with cav 1vs1 (and yes, i use those tactic since early beta).

Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 02, 2011, 04:47:33 am
Down with ridiculous lancing attack angles!

The damage is ok.
The range is fine.
The speed is acceptable.
Everything about the lance is alright.

Or rather it would be if the angle of attack had any semblance to reality.

Damage is bit too high (couched lance have way too big, poking have a bit too high), range would be ok with reduced angles, speed is acceptable.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Havoc134 on June 02, 2011, 10:49:45 am
Quote from: Lech on June 02, 2011, 10:03:59 am
1 slot unsheatable warspear would become no-no choice for ranged troops.

So you are basically stating that war spear user have to be passive and wait for mistake to win the fight ? Not really fair for someone that by design should be capable of dealing with cav 1vs1 (and yes, i use those tactic since early beta).

Damage is bit too high (couched lance have way too big, poking have a bit too high), range would be ok with reduced angles, speed is acceptable.

I missed the part where war spear becomes unsheathable. Unfortunately the drawback of having an unsheathable war spear is that you cannot have it in your pocket to keep for cav rolls around like you can now. Additionally, dropping a shield when you have a war spear out with it instantly becomes more of a hassle as you would have to drop the spear and the shield on the ground then pick up the spear.

And yes, I'm stating that a guy with a heavy lance has the right to outrange you and if he somehow never messes up (and I have seen every lancer make at least one mistake each round, without fail) then he deserves to keep you at bay. Not to say that you can't feint or fake the lancer out with your movement and blocking, I have done so and ended up killing horses with a 2h military scythe.

And I could stand to see an around 3 point decrease in base lance damage, although it already takes me 2-3 hits to kill most infantry with a heavy lance, courser, and 5 ps. And I glance all the time when I release my thrust too early
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 11:51:38 am
Nerf us more.... please... .yes... harder... HARDER... ooohhh yeaaah.










"Sigh"
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on June 02, 2011, 12:06:14 pm
Quote from: Banok on June 01, 2011, 03:40:20 am
true but then all bump slashing even with 1handers is totally retarded, only balanced by the fact its quite hard to do.

The bumpslash thingy is the only thing that makes 1h cav barely playable. Remove it (and honestly I don't know how can you remove that without ruining anything) and you buff poking cav even more.

It's very hard to do without a JetPony (and way too easy with one  :?), since people can jump on the sides and simply "slide" around your bump range very easily if your horse doesn't have crazy maneuver (riding skill is important too). Moreover, maybe it's "extremely annoying, dishonourable, impossible to defend against and unrealistic", but why don't you remove ranged weapons then ?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: BULLDOG on June 02, 2011, 12:36:11 pm
You really nerf this nice mod to death someday because of a bunch of whiney players which are complaining about everything. Really sad !!

Ps. I´m not playing as Cav or Archer and I never did.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
"Disable manual blocking on all lances"
Are you serious? When you look at the people ingame, they as good as never block on the horse efficently, blocking thrust attacks is the only thing cavalery can do properly.

About the damage: Be realistic, if a horse comes up to you in fullspeed and the guy on it stabs you with all his strengh with a lance (which isn´t light at all), you would probably die even with a heavy armor because of the impact, which deformes the armor. A lot of knights died on the field because they couldn´t breathe anymore due to their deformed armor. But the poke shouldnt be nearly as strong as the couchattack if it was realistic, that´s right. But also don´t forget that you can block that "mighty poke" easily, because you can always hear the upcoming horse and prepare yourself.

And if cavalery pisses you off, make yourself an archer, or better, horsearcher. Not even pikes bring down more horses than a horse archer.

So I only agree with this when horse archers are removed from the game  :lol:. That´s something which I think is unfair. The balance all in all is great as it is now.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Dezilagel on June 02, 2011, 04:34:31 pm
Oh my...  :shock:

Quote from: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
But also don´t forget that you can block that "mighty poke" easily, because you can always hear the upcoming horse and prepare yourself.

Ur joking right? The sound system in warband is fail, and volume is flunked so many times you won't hear them (i.e. it sounds like they're really far away) before it's too late. And when you turn around you rarely have more than half a second to react as horses are super-fast and have godawful maneuver atm. Which means that if it's not a poke, but a bump/couch coming that downblock of yours is gonna be useless.

Quote from: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
And if cavalery pisses you off, make yourself an archer, or better, horsearcher. Not even pikes bring down more horses than a horse archer.

Sorry for caps but WHY THE
(click to show/hide)
should cav force me to play "friendly archer" (HA is even worse). The last thing this mod needs is more ranged spam.
Also, pikes are not usable for bringing down horses, they're merely for defence (i.e. scaring them off). (As unless cav flunks up or plays stupid, a pike is never going to hit him)
[/quote]
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Tavuk_Bey on June 02, 2011, 06:40:42 pm
NO
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 02, 2011, 07:20:32 pm
Quote from: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
About the damage: Be realistic, if a horse comes up to you in fullspeed and the guy on it stabs you with all his strengh with a lance (which isn´t light at all), you would probably die even with a heavy armor because of the impact, which deformes the armor. A lot of knights died on the field because they couldn´t breathe anymore due to their deformed armor. But the poke shouldnt be nearly as strong as the couchattack if it was realistic, that´s right. But also don´t forget that you can block that "mighty poke" easily, because you can always hear the upcoming horse and prepare yourself.

not sure what your point is here?
Quote from: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
And if cavalery pisses you off, make yourself an archer, or better, horsearcher. Not even pikes bring down more horses than a horse archer.
Read the first post. I have a horse archer. His name is "Seawied."
Quote from: Ikarus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:09 pm
So I only agree with this when horse archers are removed from the game  :lol:. That´s something which I think is unfair. The balance all in all is great as it is now.

HA argument really belong in a different thread. This is talking about internal cav balance among lancers.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 02, 2011, 07:25:09 pm
Quote from: Seawied on June 02, 2011, 07:20:32 pm

This is talking about internal cav balance among lancers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsUNvDshw8
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 02, 2011, 07:39:44 pm
Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 02, 2011, 07:25:09 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsUNvDshw8
good thinking :wink:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Havoc134 on June 02, 2011, 07:42:45 pm
Quote from: Dezilagel on June 02, 2011, 04:34:31 pm
Oh my...  :shock:

Ur joking right? The sound system in warband is fail, and volume is flunked so many times you won't hear them (i.e. it sounds like they're really far away) before it's too late. And when you turn around you rarely have more than half a second to react as horses are super-fast and have godawful maneuver atm. Which means that if it's not a poke, but a bump/couch coming that downblock of yours is gonna be useless.

Sorry for caps but WHY THE
(click to show/hide)
should cav force me to play "friendly archer" (HA is even worse). The last thing this mod needs is more ranged spam.
Also, pikes are not usable for bringing down horses, they're merely for defence (i.e. scaring them off). (As unless cav flunks up or plays stupid, a pike is never going to hit him)

I believe this is starting to show infantry's attitude towards the poke vs. couch debate. Infantry prefer to be able to downblock defeat cavalry and cavalry have couching as a risky mechanism to defeat this if infantry is careless enough to let it happen. I myself am using the couch with my heavy lance more and more now that infantry spams downblock and leaves me with maybe 1 or 2 archer kills before my horse gets downed. Imo balancing the two mechanisms is unnecessary
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 02, 2011, 08:18:02 pm
Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 02, 2011, 07:25:09 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsUNvDshw8


Upon Ujin's suggestion, I'd like to suggest we add a courtesy lick to the implementation of these changes as well.


@Havoc I'm using couch less and less. Aside from the extensive amount of time I spent testing couched lances in the most recent patch, I've found a couched lance is only superior to a poked lance in about 1 out of 20 situations.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Havoc134 on June 03, 2011, 03:42:31 am
Yes its probably something similar for me, what I'm arguing is that such "rare" situational usefulness for the couched lance is actually a good thing since its just a tool in the lancer's arsenal to counter infantry invincibility mode (downblock)
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Dezilagel on June 03, 2011, 02:16:44 pm
Please...

If you had read what I actually wrote, you would have understood that the problem with poking vs couching is NOT the mechanics in themselves (I fully support long poke vs short couch, makes cav fights more interesting), but the fact that atm cav is so frippin' fast and maneuverable (combined with the broken sound system).

Fix those issues, make fighting lancecav less of a guessing game.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: MrExxc on June 03, 2011, 05:11:12 pm
Cav is good as it is now, look around, if a cav charges you, well you do the UBER-complicated down block, if he charges you with a couched lance, you move to the side since it's easily dodgeable. I have a cav alt, I suck at it, I think they got a pretty hard time to deal with infantry's friggin 5 meter long lances and range spam. A bit of awareness of your surroundings and I think you don't have to fear cav.

Every class has their weaknesses and strenghts, and imho the cav is balanced as it is now.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 03, 2011, 05:43:53 pm


Quote from: MrExxc on June 03, 2011, 05:11:12 pm
Cav is good as it is now, look around, if a cav charges you, well you do the UBER-complicated down block, if he charges you with a couched lance, you move to the side since it's easily dodgeable. I have a cav alt, I suck at it, I think they got a pretty hard time to deal with infantry's friggin 5 meter long lances and range spam. A bit of awareness of your surroundings and I think you don't have to fear cav.

Every class has their weaknesses and strenghts, and imho the cav is balanced as it is now.

Quote from: Dezilagel on June 03, 2011, 02:16:44 pm
Please...

If you had read what I actually wrote, you would have understood that the problem with poking vs couching is NOT the mechanics in themselves (I fully support long poke vs short couch, makes cav fights more interesting), but the fact that atm cav is so frippin' fast and maneuverable (combined with the broken sound system).

Fix those issues, make fighting lancecav less of a guessing game.


This affects all cavalry equally.
Worst of all it would hurt 1h and 2h cavalry more than lancers.

How many times does it have to be said that this thread is about the inequity between lance cavalry vs other types of melee cavalry.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 04, 2011, 06:39:40 am
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 03, 2011, 05:43:53 pm


This affects all cavalry equally.
Worst of all it would hurt 1h and 2h cavalry more than lancers.

How many times does it have to be said that this thread is about the inequity between lance cavalry vs other types of melee cavalry.

Indeed. Poke lancing currently rules supreme. Takes the least amount of skill for the highest reward out of all of the cavalry builds.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 04, 2011, 09:54:16 am
Just bring poke lancing back to what it was right when the patch came out (you could only thrust straight forward) and let's get this over with.

I've brought some lube, can i get  a kiss ?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on June 04, 2011, 11:08:39 am
Floris mod has some great sounds for horses. Seeing as it's simply a combination of loads of small mods, I'm sure you could pull the cav sounds out easily. With those sounds you'd always hear cavalry...although with more than 3 charging and a hefty subwoofer you might crap your pants :wink:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 04, 2011, 03:05:17 pm
Quote from: Overdriven on June 04, 2011, 11:08:39 am
Floris mod has some great sounds for horses. Seeing as it's simply a combination of loads of small mods, I'm sure you could pull the cav sounds out easily. With those sounds you'd always hear cavalry...although with more than 3 charging and a hefty subwoofer you might crap your pants :wink:
cool! :D
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Havoc134 on June 04, 2011, 07:55:42 pm
Yeah, better audio for horses would be terrific since on foot you have to be so aware of audio cues and quick about turning around that fighting backstabbing cavalry makes manual blocking infantry a piece of cake. And I continue to disagree about the ease of poke lancing,but maybe that's cause I use a courser which has 42 maneuver. Perhaps with high maneuver, lower speed horses poke lancing is terribly easy and couching is unrewarding but I feel that for rouncy, palfrey, and courser, things are balanced enough. And those are probably what you're talking about since I noticed you used a steppe horse, seawied
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 04, 2011, 10:03:41 pm
the horse sounds are so bad i sometimes have my sound on max. just to hear the horses :|
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 07, 2011, 03:32:45 pm
Quote from: EponiCo on May 30, 2011, 02:26:59 am
Against infantry you mostly see high speed passes, though you also see people oneshotted by lance thrusts from near stationary horse and a single high speed pass is a kill in 90% of the cases.
wow, when i use my heavy lance from a near stationary horse i usually just glance off people :(
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 08, 2011, 12:36:54 am
Quote from: Wookimonsta on June 07, 2011, 03:32:45 pm
wow, when i use my heavy lance from a near stationary horse i usually just glance off people :(

I think he was using a bit of a hyperbole. When I'm at low speeds, it usually takes about 2-3 well-timed hits to kill an opponent.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Keshian on June 08, 2011, 01:14:06 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 08, 2011, 12:36:54 am
I think he was using a bit of a hyperbole. When I'm at low speeds, it usually takes about 2-3 well-timed hits to kill an opponent.

Tons of cav 1 hit kill without couching using heavy lance.  You probably jsut need 1-2 more powerstrike.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 08, 2011, 01:17:54 am
Talking about at trot speed Kesh  :wink:

While 27p can do significant amount of damage, you would have to be a very squishy character to die from 1 hit at trot speed... Either that or they would have an extremely unusual build
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: HarunYahya on June 08, 2011, 10:39:23 am
Quote from: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am
Lancers need some changes.

As people are starting to notice (and with a fair amount of satisfactions, I can say "I told you so!") cavalry has become more common after the last major patch. While the causes of this are debatable, I think its past due that we re-examine the lance.


There are two ways to use the lance: poking, and couching. Out of the two, poking is much stronger than couching.

Strengths of Poke-lancing
  • ~+50 weapon reach
  • Extremely high damage
  • Fast recovery time
  • The ability to block without a shield

Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing
  • Requires timing
  • Can be easily manually blocked
  • Can be consistently chambered by a good player
  • Cannot be used by all lances

Strengths of Couch Lancing
  • Does not require power strike
  • Very high damage
  • Fairly easy to time
  • Cannot be manual-blocked
  • Less expensive equipment

Weaknesses of Couch Lancing
  • Reduced weapon length
  • Leaves the horse vulnerable to short spears
  • Very long recharge time
  • Requires speeds not always obtainable by some horses
  • More predictable
  • Requires longer stretches of open, level field


As you can clearly see, out of the two types of combat, poke-lancing is clearly superior in-game. This presents a number of problems.


You sir , are a retard !
You wrote damages wrong,couching 1 hits people or break their shields since it deals huge damage.Poking doesn't deal half of the couched lance damage...
I lost the count is it your 9th Cav Rage suggestion thread ?
Why not buying a spear instead of crying ?
It is either you are a very fail cav or you are a retard who can't hear a horse galloping at you from behind.
Stop suggesting devs to nerf cav and try to buff yourself.
If you can't realise a horse coming to kill you,if you can't dodge or kill rider couching lance , if you can't down block a lance poker why are you still playing this game ?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 08, 2011, 07:22:34 pm
He is not saying nerf cav, he is saying nerf lancers. He has stated this, as have others such as myself in this thread several times.
If you are going to accuse people of being retarded it might be best if you learned the basics of comprehension. So as to not appear a moron.

And that is just one of the things you got wrong.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chaos on June 08, 2011, 08:05:34 pm
Calm down koyama. This thread is about balancing the two lancer attack methods: lance thrusting and lance couching, which seawied sees as unbalanced and in need of rebalancing.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 08, 2011, 10:17:39 pm
Quote from: koyama on June 08, 2011, 10:39:23 am
You sir , are a retard !
You wrote damages wrong,couching 1 hits people or break their shields since it deals huge damage.Poking doesn't deal half of the couched lance damage...
I lost the count is it your 9th Cav Rage suggestion thread ?
Why not buying a spear instead of crying ?
It is either you are a very fail cav or you are a retard who can't hear a horse galloping at you from behind.
Stop suggesting devs to nerf cav and try to buff yourself.
If you can't realise a horse coming to kill you,if you can't dodge or kill rider couching lance , if you can't down block a lance poker why are you still playing this game ?


 :rolleyes: Remember folks on my first post I wrote a little disclaimer about jumping down your throat if you didn't read the thread and said something stupid? Well folks, here is someone who did exactly that

Quote from: Seawied on May 30, 2011, 01:54:12 am
A few disclaimers:
Yes, I do have a cavalry character, but this is by no means my only character. I have made these suggestions from my experiences of playing on both sides of the horse.
Yes, I will jump down your throat if you say something stupid because you did not read the entire post.

buy a spear? oh geez thanks fuckwad for useless advice. I use a heavy lance. You claim that "poking does half the damage as couched lancing," and quite frankly, thats just plain false. While poking does slightly less, if you are at a couchable speed, there is very little difference in damage between the two if you have a decent amount of PS. Don't believe me? Instead of fingering your ownasshole trying to masturbate your own ego with your clearly poor comprehension skills, try it for yourself.


Do you know why couch lancing is only used against noobs, AFKS, and the extremely rare 1 on 1 situation against someone who is downblocking constantly? Because poking is hands down across the board the safest, most reliable and most versatile choice on cavalry in the game. If you deny this, you sir, are a retard.

Other cavalry are much more exposed and don't have the same killing strength. Try it sometime. 1h/shield is mostly used for style points, and for the fact that it is a stronger build when dehorsed. 2h on horseback? I haven't seen a single one top the board consistently. Non-lance polearm on horseback? Pretty rare, especially since hafted blade has super shitty animation and most other polearms can only use their poke attack.

A heirloomed lance has 30p+ base damage. When you factor in the insanely high speeds horses can achieve in c-rpg combined with the insanely high riding skill you can get, its a sure-kill against any non-tincan. Against other horses? Reach rules supreme. Additionally, a regular lance actually has a FASTER attack speed than other designed-for-cavalry weapons like the hafted blade and the long hafted blade.

So please, numnuts, tell me how couched lancing is the better choice in more than 5% of the situations in the game, and don't mouth off unless you know what you're talking about
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 09, 2011, 11:15:25 am
hmm, while i haven't played in a while, i did start playing cav again.

I got 5 powerstrike and 1 wpf in polearms.
I use a courser to get most of my damage. Against other horses my heavy lance is very useful, i just have to release it very early to make sure i hit.
Against inf, if I am riding at full speed, i get one hit kills on people with low armor, against tin cans, it can take anywhere between 2-4 hits at full speed.
With a couched lance, I have to be extremely careful when attacking any inf that is aware of me, as they usually just jump slash me. I find it easiest if i point the lance all the way to the right and ride WAY past em.
If you really want to change lancing, i suggest changing the way horses work. Perhaps halving their maneuverability while giving them a decent speed/hp/armor/charge bonus. This means, cav actually have to line up their runs to do alot of damage. Anyone in their way will come away with alot of damage if he is ill prepared, anyone who has cover to dodge behind can come away unharmed.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 09, 2011, 11:06:00 pm
Wooki, what you outlined is a very popular opinion on changing horses. While I'm not completely closed off to the idea, I don't think it would change the heavy-handed power of poke lancing, and may, in fact, add to the problem.

While you say "halving horse maneuverability," I'm assuming you're using a fair amount of hyperbole. I don't think anyone would want a maneuverability of 25... which would be like driving a 16 wheeler through a grocery store.

My main concern with this change is that this would give a blanket change to ALL horses, and if anything, the extra reach would be made more important. If you aren't sure you can skim through a fray of battle to hit your target and then skip out, you're going to want something that will guarantee your safety. This would make the sword and shield cavalry players much weaker. I also don't like the idea of increasing charge damage, as one's "W" key should not be your primary attack. I think charge damage is fine... if not a little high already.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 09, 2011, 11:16:15 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 10, 2011, 09:06:02 pm
Keep it relevant Arslan
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 10, 2011, 09:12:07 pm
WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET THAT THIS TREAD ISN'T ABOUT NERFING CAV, BUT BALANCING POKE-LANCING AND COUCHING!!! atleast i do. :D
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 10, 2011, 10:30:20 pm
 :wink: You get a cookie for paying attention to what the first post was saying. Unfortunately, when I tried to give you a cookie through my monitor, the cookie was smashed against my screen.

In liu of a cookie, here is a +1   :D
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Digglez on June 10, 2011, 10:54:10 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on June 09, 2011, 11:16:15 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


This has me dying, I loved that movie.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 10, 2011, 11:02:40 pm
your changes are a bit of a class killer so yeah i think its relevant

but hey im biased what do i know
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Sammael on June 10, 2011, 11:12:27 pm
I support a re-balancing of cavalry lance use. Far too many cavalry rely solely on thrusting. You can't blame them for this, however, as couch lancing is simply not as effective for almost every scenario.

If lance thrust is to be nerfed, couch lancing should be compensated, though I do not think the changes need to be drastic in order to bring more diversity into the cavalry play style.

Here is what I agree with.

Reduce (not remove) the couch cool down.
Lower the minimum speed required to couch the lance
Decrease the thrust damage of lances moderately (25% or so)

This would encourage cavalry to couch when targeting enemies who are unaware or heavily armored. Thrust lancing would still be usable versus opponents who are mobile and aware, but would not one shot as often.

I have been cavalry for 7 of my 8 gens on my main, and would love to see more diversity amongst cavalry. (I also support a slight buff to the hafted/long hafted blade swing from horseback)
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 10, 2011, 11:27:36 pm
Arslan, Cavalry would still be very viable with these changes. Some of the changes are actually a buff. Right now, poking a lance is superior to any other form of mounted combat, pigeon holing cavalry v cavalry battle to primarily to this particular form of combat. My suggestion mainly focuses on giving these few items some drawbacks to their poked form.


@Sammael, it sounds like we are about on the same page. After I posted the original post, I started realizing how a removed cool down could be abused. I updated the first page to reflect this change. I agree that a reduced cool down would be a much more balanced approach.

The swing on the hafted blade should just be faster. The damage itself is fine, but the speed is ridiculous. I feel like its being swung through yogurt at the moment.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 11, 2011, 10:43:12 am
i still want my cookie!!! :evil:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 11, 2011, 11:13:38 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 10, 2011, 11:27:36 pm
Arslan, Cavalry would still be very viable with these changes. Some of the changes are actually a buff. Right now, poking a lance is superior to any other form of mounted combat, pigeon holing cavalry v cavalry battle to primarily to this particular form of combat. My suggestion mainly focuses on giving these few items some drawbacks to their poked form.

the thing is, your looking at cav from western point of view, where cav means tight formations and couching straight forward, while in east it was all about loose formations, maneuverability and skirmish (ha and lancers alike)

and remember its a video game, dropping lance on hit might be realistic unless you hit a head, but having one aspect of realism while so many others being unrealistic is bad, to name a few

strafing as infantry
attacking while backpeddaling
jumping in battle (leave it for the movies)
fork stopping plated chargers (at very large angle if hit to the front of a horse)
longbows hitting harder than composite bows
roofcamping
no limb damage (5% hp left and you act like its just a scratch)
underwater breathing and shooting
etc
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 11, 2011, 04:23:23 pm
I do not think this has anything to do with east vs west personally.
I just think lancers are more powerful than they should be. This seems to be the whole crux of this thread, the over prevalance of lance pokers. What does this have to do with forward couching or tight formations?

As an aside a general maneuverability nerf would suck. Out maneuvering your opponent is the only way to beat a lancer.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 11, 2011, 11:02:24 pm
Additionally, lances didn't drop on impact as much as you are implying, but lets focus on gameplay mechanics over history here.


I haven't heard a convincing argument yet that lancers are anything but the most powerful type of cavalry in the game.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 12, 2011, 01:07:23 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 11, 2011, 11:02:24 pm
Additionally, lances didn't drop on impact as much as you are implying, but lets focus on gameplay mechanics over history here.


I haven't heard a convincing argument yet that lancers are anything but the most powerful type of cavalry in the game.
Danish/German are still the most used 2h in the game (they're the most expensive looms to buy at the market). GLA is still pretty much the best polearm.

Lancers are the best type of cavalry in the game ? Well yeah, so? 1h cav don't drop their weapons when they switch them, their primary cav weapons are about as good when they dehorsed, they rape lance cavalry in close quarters with x10 better swing speed and much less glances. Their bumpslash combo at full speed is just as good as lancing when it comes to attacking unaware opponents in the back plus, unlike the lancers' thrust , there is no block button against bumpslashing (bumplancing is still harder to do, hush).

On top of that ,if they know how to ride and think quick enough, they can still beat lance cavalry.

The constant whining about cavalry (lance cavalry especially since it is more popular) was so persistent and neverending that it's starting to look like nerfing lancers in ANY way possible is some sort of a holy mission for some developers nowadays.

That is the reason why people like me and Chagan are not really active in threads like this anymore, restricting ourselves to posting a couple of troll-like sentences or pictures. We are simply TIRED. It's like  being a murder suspect in the court where nobody wants to listen to the defending side.

Lancers are the better cavalry, well guess what ? It's freaking supposed to be that way, from the start of M&B, from the launch of Warband and cRPG, since the goddamn dawn of time. Get over it .

The only real thing you could do though is balance the most popular horses a bit, but since you don't want to listen, you might as well just go ahead and keep telling us that lancers are the real problem here.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Casimir on June 12, 2011, 01:28:37 am
Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 12, 2011, 01:07:23 am

Lancers are the better cavalry, well guess what ? It's freaking supposed to be that way, from the start of M&B, from the launch of Warband and cRPG, since the goddamn dawn of time. Get over it .


there's a reason pole arm is the main skill for cavalry, because thats how its meant to be

its powerful cos its supposed to be, the same as 2h swords are more powerful than 1h, they are supposed to be
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Jarlek on June 12, 2011, 02:06:03 am
Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 12, 2011, 01:07:23 am
Danish/German are still the most used 2h in the game (they're the most expensive looms to buy at the market). GLA is still pretty much the best polearm.

Lancers are the best type of cavalry in the game ? Well yeah, so? 1h cav don't drop their weapons when they switch them, their primary cav weapons are about as good when they dehorsed, they rape lance cavalry in close quarters with x10 better swing speed and much less glances. Their bumpslash combo at full speed is just as good as lancing when it comes to attacking unaware opponents in the back plus, unlike the lancers' thrust , there is no block button against bumpslashing (bumplancing is still harder to do, hush).

On top of that ,if they know how to ride and think quick enough, they can still beat lance cavalry.

The constant whining about cavalry (lance cavalry especially since it is more popular) was so persistent and neverending that it's starting to look like nerfing lancers in ANY way possible is some sort of a holy mission for some developers nowadays.

That is the reason why people like me and Chagan are not really active in threads like this anymore, restricting ourselves to posting a couple of troll-like sentences or pictures. We are simply TIRED. It's like  being a murder suspect in the court where nobody wants to listen to the defending side.

Lancers are the better cavalry, well guess what ? It's freaking supposed to be that way, from the start of M&B, from the launch of Warband and cRPG, since the goddamn dawn of time. Get over it .

The only real thing you could do though is balance the most popular horses a bit, but since you don't want to listen, you might as well just go ahead and keep telling us that lancers are the real problem here.
Someone give Ujin a cookie. Or a BJ, whatever you chose.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 12, 2011, 05:13:17 pm
Oh so lances are better because they are meant to be?

Such an impressive argument right thar!

Well now I am going to make a counter argument of equal awesomeosity.

"No they're not."

---

2h sword are more powerful than 1h weapons when infantry because of the trade off in defence for attack. This goes for 2h polearms too.
Not "because they are meant to be".

Lances should be the best aggressive weapon in a head on strike. They should be un-paralleled in this regard. But they should not be better in almost every way. With their massive attack angles, massive armour piercing damage and super easyness, they currently are. There are plenty of situations where a lancer should get fucked, but he doesn't.

I do not give a crap if you are tired if you are then go get some sleep. Maybe then you lot can make a better argument than "yea lances are more powerful, they are meant to be trololol".

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 12, 2011, 05:31:46 pm
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 12, 2011, 05:13:17 pm
Oh so lances are better because they are meant to be?

Such an impressive argument right thar!

Well now I am going to make a counter argument of equal awesomeosity.

"No they're not."

---

2h sword are more powerful than 1h weapons when infantry because of the trade off in defence for attack. This goes for 2h polearms too.
Not "because they are meant to be".

Lances should be the best aggressive weapon in a head on strike. They should be un-paralleled in this regard. But they should not be better in almost every way. With their massive attack angles, massive armour piercing damage and super easyness, they currently are. There are plenty of situations where a lancer should get fucked, but he doesn't.

I do not give a crap if you are tired if you are then go get some sleep. Maybe then you lot can make a better argument than "yea lances are more powerful, they are meant to be trololol".
You look a bit angry , Plazek. Here, have a fishstick and calm down.

For everyone else - my points above remain. And yeah, i believe that "lancers are supposed to be the best cav" argument is still valid, even though i've brought up some other arguments along with it.

P.S. best armor piercing weapon from a horseback is a morningstar , as far as  i remember.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Danath on June 13, 2011, 05:25:23 am
I couche with great lance as I have 0 polearm skill so I don't know for sure if lancing is now over powered (regular poke lancing) but I gotta say its hard to use great lance when you don't have a shield and cant block with it lol.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 13, 2011, 06:33:30 am
Quote from: Danath on June 13, 2011, 05:25:23 am
I couche with great lance as I have 0 polearm skill so I don't know for sure if lancing is now over powered (regular poke lancing) but I gotta say its hard to use great lance when you don't have a shield and cant block with it lol.

you bring up a good issue which I didn't calculate and that is 0 wpf couching. If couch cool-down was tied to polearm wpf, this would be a good way of balancing it.


@Ujin. I tend to agree with Plazek's rebuttal to your previous post. I would like to write a more detailed counter argument, but I haven't had the time/motivation just yet.

@ the argument that morningstar is the best pierce weapon: I respectfully disagree. The morningstar is a great weapon to use on horseback, but it carries a lot of danger along with it. It suffers the 33% horseback penalty or a 35% 1h penalty. Additionally, it doesn't have a reach which allows the rider to be constantly safe. The Morningstar in my opinion, represents a good trade-off between killing-power and risk. Lances don't have that same risk.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Jarlek on June 13, 2011, 01:40:32 pm
Quote from: Seawied on June 13, 2011, 06:33:30 am
you bring up a good issue which I didn't calculate and that is 0 wpf couching. If couch cool-down was tied to polearm wpf, this would be a good way of balancing it.


@Ujin. I tend to agree with Plazek's rebuttal to your previous post. I would like to write a more detailed counter argument, but I haven't had the time/motivation just yet.

@ the argument that morningstar is the best pierce weapon: I respectfully disagree. The morningstar is a great weapon to use on horseback, but it carries a lot of danger along with it. It suffers the 33% horseback penalty or a 35% 1h penalty. Additionally, it doesn't have a reach which allows the rider to be constantly safe. The Morningstar in my opinion, represents a good trade-off between killing-power and risk. Lances don't have that same risk.
I lol'ed
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 13, 2011, 03:47:32 pm
Quote from: Zapper on June 13, 2011, 01:40:32 pm
I lol'ed


and I just rolled my eyes at this response. You really think that attacking someone with a 190 length lance carries the same risk as an 82 length weapon? You're living in a dream world then, my friend.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 04:41:24 pm
Ahh, an ad hominem with regards to percieved anger perhaps implying me and my arguments are unreasonable?

Good try Ujin, good try.
Get some sleep eh ;)

Maybe next time you can tell us why Lancers should be the unparalleled cavalry fighting force of the battlefield. As for suggesting that the morningstar is the ultimate piercing weapon on horseback. Unless you are such a Neanderthal that you believe highest damage = best weapon by default (and I thought you were smarter than that) then what else other than that single stat makes it the best horseback piercing weapon?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Jarlek on June 13, 2011, 04:56:26 pm
Quote from: Seawied on June 13, 2011, 03:47:32 pm

and I just rolled my eyes at this response. You really think that attacking someone with a 190 length lance carries the same risk as an 82 length weapon? You're living in a dream world then, my friend.
herpa derpa, speed rating 65 against speed rating 92? If the lancer fucks up and misses/stops he can't block and is dead (or should die, luck still exists), and if a morningstar user fucks up and goes duel mode then he is dead. Meleecav is high risk, high gain no matter what you use, it's just different ways those risks are. See my point?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 05:23:59 pm
If the lancer misses or fucks up and is not a total gommo then he is still going to be about 2 metres away, as opposed to the morningstar user who will be right up in the guys face.
You really need some one to point this out to you? Really?

Not to mention the 33% damage and speed reduction that using a 2h weapon in 1h mode causes. Do some maths and find out what 92speed minus 33% is. Pro tip: They are pretty close, and the damage is less.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 13, 2011, 05:26:20 pm
acctually the morningstar does only 25 pierce damage from horseback(38x2/3), so not really a good weapon
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Jarlek on June 13, 2011, 05:41:59 pm
You do know polearms also gets the reduced damage when on horse? Not sure with the speed tough.

And I see that you didn't understand my post properly (my fault really, bad description), a lancer and a morningstar user should attack from horse in different ways. Both can sneak attack from the back on unaware, but lancers should have more distance so they don't get hit/stuck/stopped (by polearm stab) while a morningstar should ambush, horsebump, slice, and even if he gets stuck (wall etc.) he can attack back.  The morningstar is not in as big danger when he is stopped as a lancer, while a lancer can have more distance (which also makes it easier to dodge). Also a morningstar user should never go for aware players, while lancers can (unless the footman has flamberge/glaive/greatsword/any-pikelike weapons/LHB and doesn't suck, like jumpers, free kills :D).

Ok this becomes sort of a mess. Hope you understand it. Will try to give a better description if this is not good enough.

Basically: Lancer and morningstar on horse is two different styles with different tactics. BOTH are a high risk, high reward.

EDIT: Also only gets the 33% speed reduction if you use it with a shield, even tough the animation on horse is with 1 hand. The 33% damage and speed reduction (or was it 30%?) is from being on horse is for both polearm and 2h. Only 1h gets away (and ranged, but that's a different story)
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
I know they definitely used to, in native. Some of these things could have been changed. I thought I remembered hearing something like that but cannot really remember.

You say:

Quote
both can sneak attack from the back on unaware, but lancers should have more distance so they don't get hit/stuck/stopped (by polearm stab) while a morningstar should ambush, horsebump, slice, and even if he gets stuck (wall etc.) he can attack back.

As if ambushing/horsebumping/attacking after you have gotten stuck, is something only 1h/2h users can do.

This is not true.
Lancers can do all of these things just fine.

Why is a lancer in more danger than a 1h/2h user after their horse has been stopped? Whether I am using a sword or a lance the #1 objective is getting the hell out of there. Using a sword makes it no easier to avoid dying. It just means you have a higher base damage weapon with C damage instead of a much longer ranged, equally attack angled slightly lower damage P damage weapon. A weapon that may well do more damage against an armoured opponent even at a standstill!

Then you also admit that only lancers can go for aware players and other weapon types users ought not even try.

---

You own account is unbalanced!

Sneak - both
Ambush - both
Horsebump - both
Better range - lancer
Head on strike - lancer

---

Also about all you guys who are all "but omg you can use your sword on foot!" you can damn well use your lance on foot! If you have been dehorsed in the middle of some field and there is enemy cavalry all over, then I would much rather have a lance than some little 1h/2h sword.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 13, 2011, 06:20:04 pm
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 04:41:24 pm
Unless you are such a Neanderthal that you believe highest damage = best weapon by default (and I thought you were smarter than that) then what else other than that single stat makes it the best horseback piercing weapon?
Nope, however i believe that while you keep shouting "Ner Balance !" on the forums and doing your best to look smarter than the others, your clanmates from the 22nd are playing the game and those who play as cav seem to do pretty fine , both lancers and 1handers.

Oh and if the player with a morningstar misses, he won't be right up in the guy's face, he will simply keep safely riding on , already 10-20 meters away from the enemy he just missed. Do i really have to explain this to you? Really ?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:30:45 pm
Smart guy, I c wut you did there.

I know we in the 22nd do fine. In fact I am one of those cavalry, I am the 2h javcav and I do fine. The 22nd being able to win does not mean that things are balanced though does it. So whats your point?

---

If the player with the morningstar misses and the guy he is trying to kill has a pro-active aggressive defence. In other words the other guys method of defence is trying to kill the guy then yes, for the important moment the cavalryman will be very close to the defenders face. Within 82 length of it to be precise. That point there, before he rides away is when he will die, if he is going to.

You know as opposed to being 175-190 distance away, ie much less likely to be counter stabbed.


Quote from: Zapper on June 13, 2011, 04:56:26 pm
herpa derpa

---

I see you did not answer my question regarding what about the morning star other than the high damage stat makes it the ultimate piercing cavalry weapon... preferring instead to engage in some more fallacious anti logic.

Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 13, 2011, 06:20:04 pm
Nope, however i believe that while you keep shouting "Ner Balance !" on the forums and doing your best to look smarter than the others,


Noes not another ad hominem!

/loses argument

...oh wait, were in the universe where logic matters!
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 13, 2011, 06:51:39 pm
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:30:45 pm
(click to show/hide)
My point is the cav is balanced as it is right now, except for courser/sarranid which might need some slight stat reductions. What is your point, aside from the arguing exersises ?

A decent 1h cav would be doing absolutely fine in the game. A bad lancer/1h cav would be somewhere at the bottom of the scoreboard due to constant mistakes they make. I myself use a bardiche (2hander) from the horseback from time to time and find it very fun and in some situations even more useful than lancing. 1h cav should serve other purposes and i don't see why the heck do you want to put them on equal terms against lance cavalry.
You keep saying that lance cav can do everything that 1h cav does , but better, yet you and your clanmates and many other people have no troubles being 1h/2h cav, i don't see them complaining here. Probably has something to do with them actually liking the class they play and not being jealous sissies.

P.S. i know this will probably turn against me, but noone is stopping a 1h cav player from taking a lance for cav vs cav fights. Problem solved.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 07:00:59 pm
Another stellar performance there Ujin. I have to ask are you purposefully engaging in the same fallacious arguments again and again for your own entertainment or because you do not know any better?
I notice once again you did not care to back up your claim that the morningstar is the ultimate piercing cavalry weapon. Despite me suggesting, once more, that it would be a good idea. "Jealous sissy" though, that definitely explains the 20 minutes it took you to reply to my post  :lol:

I never said that lancers should be on equal terms with other cavalry types. Perhaps you would care to read my posts?

Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 12, 2011, 05:13:17 pm

Lances should be the best aggressive weapon in a head on strike. They should be un-paralleled in this regard. But they should not be better in almost every way.


I think they should be great, really great. In certain ways. I also happen to think this should be balanced with realistic negatives, which makes them a much worse choice depending on the situation.

---

I noticed again you keep on saying "but 22nd guys do ok!" and I ask once again. What about 22nd being able to do ok in any given class means the game is balanced?

PS

For the record I would never pick up some stinking lance. I do not use lances, they are boring and easy. Which is why I have never cared enough for them to use them with any regularity since beta. I use swords on horseback for the added fun and challenge and I love the class.

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: rokema on June 13, 2011, 07:02:31 pm
Quote from: Shogunate_Ujin on June 13, 2011, 06:51:39 pm
My point is the cav is balanced as it is right now, except for courser/sarranid which might need some slight stat reductions. What is your point, aside from the arguing exersises ?

A decent 1h cav would be doing absolutely fine in the game. A bad lancer/1h cav would be somewhere at the bottom of the scoreboard due to constant mistakes they make. I myself use a bardiche (2hander) from the horseback from time to time and find it very fun and in some situations even more useful than lancing. 1h cav should serve other purposes and i don't see why the heck do you want to put them on equal terms against lance cavalry.
You keep saying that lance cav can do everything that 1h cav does , but better, yet you and your clanmates and many other people have no troubles being 1h/2h cav, i don't see them complaining here. Probably has something to do with them actually liking the class they play and not being jealous sissies.

P.S. i know this will probably turn against me, but noone is stopping a 1h cav player from taking a lance for cav vs cav fights. Problem solved.

A bad lancer will do fine because his weapon ranges longer than most spears, he can just turn away and survive mistakes he has made.

A bad 1h on horseback will get raped because he has to actually risk himself by getting within the enemies attack radius to be able to hit.

The problem I have is that there's hardly any risk but a lot of reward for lancing.

I propose that... the faster a lancer rides, the radius at which he can stab is lowered.
(Want me to explain why this is a good balance?)
EDIT: Explanation because Ujin doesn't seem like the thinking feller:
This balancing will make lances still a great offensive weapon, but a poor defensive weapon since you have to slow down to defend your rears / attack enemies which're to the sides.

And uhm. Just because any 1h on horseback can use an overpowered lance doesn't mean everything is alright.

One more thing, I feel the turn speed of horses(When very slow or stationary) should be higher so archers can't just run around shooting arrows into my horse just because it can't side-step.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Paul on June 13, 2011, 07:43:55 pm
WTF, Rokema? Who led you out of the jungle?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 13, 2011, 08:02:37 pm
Glad you've brough some backup. It's not like your pleasant company wasn't enough for me, if you know what i mean.

 By the way , i switch from the forum to the game and back, but i appreaciate the fact that you've mentioned the time it took me to answer you. Goes to show how dedicated you are to this "balancing issue". I also like the constant mentioning of my intellectual capabilities. Please stop being so passive-agressive and just call me stupid , don't restrain yourself. Not that i care anyway.

I've stated my opinion on the cav balance , you've stated yours. Just because i don't agree with you doesn't mean i have to waste the whole bloody day reading your neverending posts on this forum, really. If you've read MY messages , you'd notice that i said "as far as i remember" when mentioned the morningstar as the best piercing cav weapon. Can we go on now, please? But feel free to celebrate this glorious moment of your life, your really got me this time (blah !).

Rokema, when it comes to talking about cav and mistakes, i'd like to point out a couple of things :

1. I believe  (and i hope you agree with me) that a perfect target for any type of cavalry would be an enemy that is either not aware of the cav's presence (turned his back) or is engaged in a melee fight and can't really do anything. That kind of target is an easy prey for both lance and 1h cav.

2. If the enemy is aware of cavs presence : 

-if it's a shielder, they usually just hold their shields up. 1h cav usually deals better with these guys than lancer cav, bumpslash combo works wonders if you know how to use it. Same goes for people just holding their downblock, couching a lance against them is usually of equal risk compared to approaching them with 1h on horseback.

- 2handers with danish/german greatswords have decent chances against lance cav, it's usually a mix of luck + skill of both players that decides who comes out victorious. On my 2h alt i've killed more cav with a stab when i was aware of it than it killed me.  Either way, it's a risk to attack and aware 2hander.

- Polearm users can be dangerous to lance cav. Obviously the most dangerous ones are pikemen/bamboo spears/hoplites (decent ones) . They mostly die to lance cav cause of their own mistakes.

- Archers are easy prey for both classes of cavalry, however if the lancer wants to use a somewhat decent weapon when he gets dehorsed, he is forced to not use a shield. This gives 1h cav better chances to survive against archers/xbowmen, because getting shot by a longbow at full speed can be really painful. By " survive" i don't mean  keeping your horse alive , of course.

3. Lance cavalry is extremly vulnerable when it gets dehorsed. When 1h +shield cav gets dehorsed , all they need to do is hold their block until they get up and than either engage in a fight or start backpedalling if they got dehorsed in front of a group of enemies. I've seen dehorsed 1h+shield cav survive like this many times.

4. Lancing , especially angles , highly relies on the horse you use. That is why i believe that the core of all problems that people have with lance cav lies in arabian (sarranid) war horses' stats. Coursers, on the other hand , are perfect weapons against slow or unaware people.   Most other horses give infantry much better chances to fight off lance cav. And when  it comes to armoured horses, i believe 1h+shields suit them the most.

5. Last but not least, i don't remember a single Strategus battle where cavalry completely overwhelmed and dominated the other team. This is simply because the two best weapons against any type of cavalry are teamwork and well-defended groups of ranged . Make lancing radius smaller and you risk either making the class not interesting (don't forget that not everyone will ride champion arabian warhorses in Strat.) to play or simply underpowered. Because right now even on battle servers it is absolutely possible to do fine against the so -called "overpowered" cav.

Lances are definetly worse defending weapons than 1hs/2hs right now anyway. You can't succesfully poke a guy (if he has at least some armour) that stands right next to you if your horse gets stopped. Yes, there is a chance you will barely scratch him, but with a 1h + shield you have much better options at low speed and in tight areas. It works especially well with a heavy horse.

P.S. lance is not "overpowered". It is a weapon made SPECIFICALLY for cavalry , unlike 1handers/2handers that can be used effectively as infantry weapons. I think it's pretty simple to understand. And if you love the "challenge" , why do you keep trying to change the game to work in your favour ? So far your biggest argument is "lances are easy , boring and overpowred. I don't like them, i don't use them, i want them "changed" or "balanced" " .  Last time i've checked, that's called a biased opinion. But then again, we both might have biased opinions, who knows.

P.P.S. edited the message a bit to make it slightly easier to read. I've got flu atm so don't judge me too much.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 08:59:10 pm
This is a thread about the balance of lance cavalry against other cavalry. All that stuff you just wrote with regards to infantry and archers is mostly irrelevant to this discussion. Glad that you decided to drop your ridiculous claim with regards to morningstars though.

One mans "passive agressive" is another mans "light ridicule". You know on account of your childish comments. I would rather be "passive aggressive" than flat out rude however, as you are. I say what I want to say, I have no desire to be like you though.
---

1) Platitude.

2) Cav vs Cav discussion in this topic plox. Not that I think your analysis with regards to the prevalance on shields amongst lancers is in any way accurate. They are common, there are plenty of reasonably useful 1 slot shields and 1h weapons.

3) Based upon fallacious point (2)

4) All cavalry types can use all types of horses, as far as this topic goes (that is balance amongst cavalry) horses are balanced as each cavalry type gets the same benefits. If you want to talk about horse imbalance then that is a different topic.

5) Again this is a topic about cav vs cav balance.

---

I am cavalry, you do not need to make the general cavalry nerf defence arguments. You need to answer why "lancers are better because they should be better."
 You know like you said earlier. Or would you like to rescind that comments like you did with the morningstar?


PS

Lol Paul :D

PS

QQ neg rep QQ

 :rolleyes:

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Jarlek on June 13, 2011, 09:04:14 pm
Before we continue, let's call people on horse who use slicing weapons (morningstar, LHB, longsword) for slicers, ok?

Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
I know they definitely used to, in native. Some of these things could have been changed. I thought I remembered hearing something like that but cannot really remember.

You say:

As if ambushing/horsebumping/attacking after you have gotten stuck, is something only 1h/2h users can do.

This is not true.
Lancers can do all of these things just fine.

Why is a lancer in more danger than a 1h/2h user after their horse has been stopped? Whether I am using a sword or a lance the #1 objective is getting the hell out of there. Using a sword makes it no easier to avoid dying. It just means you have a higher base damage weapon with C damage instead of a much longer ranged, equally attack angled slightly lower damage P damage weapon. A weapon that may well do more damage against an armoured opponent even at a standstill!
Yes, a lancer is in more danger because he has a very slow attack (which I tried to say earlier) and he has a higher chance of glancing (because of the long length) he can more easily be blocked (only thrust damage). Both of them will obviously manage to get out as fast as possible, but a lancer will only have one desperate attack while a slicer can do all from 2-4 if he is spamming fast enough.
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
Then you also admit that only lancers can go for aware players and other weapon types users ought not even try.

---

You own account is unbalanced!
Yes, lancer are the melee cav that can most easily go against aware players. But that does not mean they are EFFECTIVE against aware players. If you see on the duel servers how a lancer duels footmen, you can see that it is a very, VERY slow process. Again this is agaisnt middle/good players as bad players will try to jump/outrange/rush the cav. So in a battle it's never a good idea to go for aware players since you will need time to take them down (unless they get distracted) and in that time you will most of the time be shot down. Both lancers and slicers can go against bad players btw.

Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:15:25 pm
Sneak - both
Ambush - both
Horsebump - both
Better range - lancer
Head on strike - lancer

---

Also about all you guys who are all "but omg you can use your sword on foot!" you can damn well use your lance on foot! If you have been dehorsed in the middle of some field and there is enemy cavalry all over, then I would much rather have a lance than some little 1h/2h sword.

Sneak - both none, trying to sneak with a horse is not possible. Hiding and moving silently is not possible with a horse. The reason people are caught unaware by horsemen from behind is not because horses are stealthy but because they are fast. Which brings us too...
Ambush - both, correct! Both can ambush and both are just as good. Slicers will be even better in some circumstances because of their higher attack speed (people in a line, running slightly spread out) while lancers are better on others because of their higher length (people spread out).
Horsebump - both, correct again, but why should this be a difference since this is the horse and not the rider doing it?
Better range - lancer, correct. Lances have greater length.
Head on strike - lancer none. No horsemen are good in a head on strike. As I said earlier dueling with a horse should take time and the only time it will be fast (and a still living horse and rider) is if the one they are charging does a stupid mistake.

And about being on foot with a lance? No, it is NO WAY as good as any 2hander or polearm or 1hander. It's basically a very slow, very short "long spear" aka "ye olde pike". Yes it is good if your dehorsed next to a group of angry horsemen but then you want it because it's the longest stick (read: polearm) that you have.

Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 06:30:45 pm
snip
---

I see you did not answer my question regarding what about the morning star other than the high damage stat makes it the ultimate piercing cavalry weapon... preferring instead to engage in some more fallacious anti logic.

snip
Actually I did, right beneath it. Or did you not read it? Such a nice thing that we can have a decent discussion here.


@Ujin. Your 1-4 was basically what I was trying to say in my earlier posts, and 5 is VERY true. Being a horseman in that 40v40 was a very stressing thing. Also we can't have a proper discussion with people like this who basically scream FALLACY whenever someone comes with an argument.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Ujin on June 13, 2011, 09:30:55 pm
The last thing on this forum i want ,Plazek, is you telling me where to post or not. You accuse me of being rude as opposed to your subtle sarcasm , but your recent messages show us that this is not the case.

Your have your own opinion, i have my own, and it clearly states that i don't believe that lancers need balancing, i believe that certain horses need balancing. If you fail to see the logic in my arguments , you have only yourself to blame. I am not really looking for your approval or permission to post in this topic so , to live up to your expectations and be the rude impolite brute that i am - you can shove those "switch to a different topic" suggestions up your cocky, arrogant ass.

I'll leave you at this point where you will probably write some mumbo-jumbo about me running away from the argument i'm losing, but  i think i've said all i wanted to say already. Other people can read all my points in the messages above. Whether they agree with me or you is up to them. I definetly didn't come to this topic to exchange words with you for the next 3 or so pages.

Cheers.

P.S. and lol no, trust me i didn't touch your awesomebar =)).
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 09:42:28 pm
Zapper

Nope. I calmly say fallacy when fools come along with ad hominems. Learn difference plox. I only called fallacy three times and only in direct response to actual ad hominems which bear no relation to the current topic  :rolleyes:

If your going to accuse me of not reading things then you should be aware. I was addressing Ujin with regards to morningstars, not you. Anyway even Ujin has now rescinded that point, so I am not sure why you would bring it back up.

---

Lances do not particularly have a higher chance of glancing, long weapons have pretty much always been bugged with regards to this when used to thrust. Hence the "lolstab". They can be slower, I will give you that. However unless the 2h/1h weapon has comparable P/B damage then the chance of a glance is pretty equal.

---

So as you agreed, lancers have it easier.

---

I said sneak because you said it, if your gonna be all smart about it:

Quote from: Zapper on June 13, 2011, 05:41:59 pm
Both can sneak attack from the back on unaware


Sure though as you say head on strikes can be dangerous (if you make a mistake) but with a heavy lance against an opponent with a short weapon the lancer can safely perform such a feat so long as he does not do something stupid. To say otherwise when the guy has a 175-190 range lance and the standard 1h weapon is 100 or shorter length is just crazy.

No shit having a lance on foot sucks in most situations this was not my point. My point was in some situations it can be great, second only to a long pike, except you can carry a shield at the same time. So people ought not whine that they cannot use their lance on foot as if that makes the inequalities between lances and other weapons while on horseback all ok. If you have a lance and I have a 1h and were surrounded by cav, both dehorsed, where is the 1h advantage then?!

Point being that sorry excuse for an argument has no strength behind it.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Kafein on June 13, 2011, 09:56:18 pm
Lances were exactly how they had to be when you could only attack in a little zone in front of (between the first May patch and the second, one or two days later). It also worked like that at some stage of warband beta. A little speed and damage buff to them and you'll get a charge-dedicated lance cavary, with decent (forward) range, unlike couched lances. One of the things ruining the lance gameplay is how you can attack in nearly any direction with it.

(hopefully) end of my contribution.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Keshian on June 13, 2011, 10:03:53 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 13, 2011, 09:56:18 pm
Lances were exactly how they had to be when you could only attack in a little zone in front of (between the first May patch and the second, one or two days later). It also worked like that at some stage of warband beta. A little speed and damage buff to them and you'll get a charge-dedicated lance cavary, with decent (forward) range, unlike couched lances. One of the things ruining the lance gameplay is how you can attack in nearly any direction with it.

(hopefully) end of my contribution.

Not a bad idea.  Would be nice for have a real challenge so lancers actually have to be good to do well and plan their attacks and approaches.  of course most likely we would see a bunch of lancers become 1 handed cav or throwers (they are getting somewhat buffed back in next patch) because its no longer easy mode, much like many archers became throwers after the january patch.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Gurnisson on June 13, 2011, 10:14:44 pm
Quote from: Kafein on June 13, 2011, 09:56:18 pm
Lances were exactly how they had to be when you could only attack in a little zone in front of (between the first May patch and the second, one or two days later). It also worked like that at some stage of warband beta. A little speed and damage buff to them and you'll get a charge-dedicated lance cavary, with decent (forward) range, unlike couched lances. One of the things ruining the lance gameplay is how you can attack in nearly any direction with it.

So that a good lancer won't manage too beat a guy with a spear or two-hander with good maneuver? No, that would make cav even more reliant on backraping, which is even more silly. Let there be some skill left in lancing, not just brainless backstabbing, or bumping of enemies. Good maneuver and knowing when to stab, go in and out of range and such is the skill part of cav. Don't remove it.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on June 13, 2011, 10:14:44 pm
So that a good lancer won't manage too beat a guy with a spear or two-hander with good maneuver? No, that would make cav even more reliant on backraping, which is even more silly. Let there be some skill left in lancing, not just brainless backstabbing, or bumping of enemies. Good maneuver and knowing when to stab, go in and out of range and such is the skill part of cav. Don't remove it.

Ever heard of maneuvering, baiting and knocking down?

Honestly, when you're playing a lancer, the only problem you'll ever find is Pikemen and archers. Rest you can just outrange easily. They have no chance of fighting back if they don't have any form of ranged weapon or pike, forcing them to be on the defensive constantly.

As a 1h on horseback everything can kill you. Even a peasant with a stick if he manages to dodge your blow and smack your toe.(Hey it rhymed)

So my problem with lances is Risk - Reward, no risk for the reward lancers are getting.



EDIT: If the thing gets done where the faster you go, the less of a radius you can stab, all new cavalry tactics come up where you slow down at the last moment to stab a guy or something.

The main thing that I want is that people get a chance to fight back, honestly, if you have a shorter weapon you have NO chance to fight back against a lancer who keeps stabbing you with the very tip of his weapon to veer off before you can reach him.

That "good maneuver" you are talking about is just veering off as you stab to stay out of range, nothing good about it it's just stupid since a lancer can do it over and over and over and over without you being able to do anything back. + you can still kill a 2h head-on with a lance if you have timing. (your weapon is longer you know?)

EDIT EDIT EDIT: What's so brainless about bumping? Bumping is opening yourself for an attack in an attempt to open up the enemy by knocking him down.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Gurnisson on June 13, 2011, 11:02:19 pm
Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
Ever heard of maneuvering, baiting and knocking down?

Yes, I mentioned two of them

Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
Honestly, when you're playing a lancer, the only problem you'll ever find is Pikemen and archers. Rest you can just outrange easily. They have no chance of fighting back if they don't have any form of ranged weapon or pike, forcing them to be on the defensive constantly.

Depends on the player. Good two-handers can take you down, depending on your, and his, maneuverability. I know I've taken down a lot of cav by being unpredictable, using footwork and the long stab on my two-hander. Also, every class has their counter, why should all classes be able to take down lancers easily?

Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
As a 1h on horseback everything can kill you. Even a peasant with a stick if he manages to dodge your blow and smack your toe.(Hey it rhymed)

Yes, 1H horseman have a harder time, but with some tricks you can take down lancers (Ride in front, make him stop, spin + slash till his horse is dead), and the infantry with maneuvering + bumpslashing. Still, I see your point. Lancers are at a clear advantage as a class.

Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
So my problem with lances is Risk - Reward, no risk for the reward lancers are getting.

Agree.

Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
If the thing gets done where the faster you go, the less of a radius you can stab, all new cavalry tactics come up where you slow down at the last moment to stab a guy or something.

I never talked about that one. I talked about the silly lock that was in the beta that Kafein mentioned. I would rather see the one you've mentioned here, because a lancer teasing infantry like that are easy prey for half-decent archers, I.E. risk.

Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
The main thing that I want is that people get a chance to fight back, honestly, if you have a shorter weapon you have NO chance to fight back against a lancer who keeps stabbing you with the very tip of his weapon to veer off before you can reach him.

I see your point there. Then again, classes have their counters, as I mentioned earlier. One-handers, to make one example, is not a counter for cav and shouldn't be able to take them down easily. They can still do it though, with good movement and unpredictability.


Quote from: rokema on June 13, 2011, 10:33:33 pm
That "good maneuver" you are talking about is just veering off as you stab to stay out of range, nothing good about it it's just stupid since a lancer can do it over and over and over and over without you being able to do anything back. + you can still kill a 2h head-on with a lance if you have timing. (your weapon is longer you know?)

If you release your weapon without knowing if you're gonna hit him, you're doing it wrong. Either leave him, or try to feint him to use speed bonus, making him ride into your reach, and then unleash your strike.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Paul on June 13, 2011, 11:26:03 pm
Mostly very one-sided opinions here, as usual. Apart from Gurni.

Playing both lancer and 1h cav I think the balance between lancer and sword&board cav against footmen is fine as it is. Both have advantages and disadvantages. However the balance in a direct duel is not ok in my opinion. Sword&board should get some more opportunites to counter lancers in certain situations.

However while with WSE the lancing angle will probably get smaller, I'm strongly against the front stab only solution we had in Native beta as well as briefly in cRPG. It takes the last bit of skill out of lancing. It already has a lower skill ceiling than sword&board but with that it becomes very, very dull.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on June 13, 2011, 11:34:49 pm
I think this thread should be closed. When it turns into people insulting each other, you know you've reached a dead end thread and another pointless discussion.

Plus these arguments are getting very samey from the exact same few people arguing backwards and forwards. I've given up on this cavalry argument until I see some fresh faces come in and start moaning about cavalry. Not the same old same old.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 05:47:31 am
Quote from: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 13, 2011, 08:59:10 pm
PS

QQ neg rep QQ

 :rolleyes:

pretty much. The pro-easy-mode cav lobbyist seem to get incredibly scared at debate and feel the need to throw hurtful -1 karma points at anyone and everyone disagree with them.  :lol:
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 10:29:53 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 05:47:31 am
pretty much. The pro-easy-mode cav lobbyist seem to get incredibly scared at debate and feel the need to throw hurtful -1 karma points at anyone and everyone disagree with them.  :lol:

here have a + see if i care (i wont mention i got a lot of - karma also from whatever-lobby-you-are guys, oh shit i just did)

22_King_Plazek im not sure if its only about cav vs cav as many people talk about fighting infantry also but lets start with cav vs cav

this discussion looks like steel pick user complaining about glaive user range of weapon... yes lance is suppose to have advantage (while on full speeds and in some distance to each other) on the 1h cav in cav vs cav duel, because of range (it matters), but 1h cav can deal with that by blocking with shield, stopping other guy, and slashing him which results in either death or being dehorsed

in these situations lancer is defenseless, as we need speed to kill, 1h not, they also got 3/4 directions to attack you with while lancer only 1

the other thing that is better in 1h cav is that with shield the damage transfer when blocking doesnt happen as often, as with downblock i could say its even quite rare to have it, but since i didnt played with a shield for a bit now i wont be doing such bold statement

and lets not forget the "phantom" range of 1h on horse, as we all know sometimes the results are pretty weird, not once have i been killed with a swing in front of a 1h cav (very long arms you say?)

i also remember there was some argument about 0wpf in polearms, well tbh during that short time when lancing had 10 degree attack range? i dumped by lance and took an unloomed elite scimitar and did fairly well to my surprise ;] but sure lances could get tied wpf to the PS just like the thrown weapons or bows, it would for sure eliminate bunch of cav wannabes and make at least some people happy (if of course there are people riding with 0 in polearms)

ok now to the cav vs inf

killing unaware inf is the same for all cav so ill leave it, when it comes to killing aware players you need to to choose proper target.
Rokema said that lancers got only problem with pikemen and bows (i assume xbows also?), i would also add 2h (skilled players) and most noticeable the Flamberg users. Something in this weapon makes it impossible for me to attack user wielding it, i just always end up dead or dehorsed.

Sure lancers might have a slight advantage over 1h cav when it comes to aware inf, but i think that is only in the field of 2h.
On the other hand 1h cav can deal better with players that got very good footwork, thanks to their swings rather than thrusts, for lancers such players would take whole round to deal with with unsure result in the end.

Also 1h cav is better at dealing with archers, when they want to approach archer they can move their horse sideways (to lesses to chance of their horse getting headshot), and take the arrow on the shield and than take archer out before he got his second arrow ready. Lancers on the other hand need to make some evasive maneuvers and hope archer will miss his shot.

When stopped on some rock, wall, peasant with a stick 1h cav got much better chance of surviving it, one because of shield, two because they can swing back at the attackers, lancers on the other hand can only hope that the attackers will fuck it up, as even being successful at stopping their attacks you will get your horse killed thanks to damage transfer

I consider lancers to be a suicidal maniacs that need extreme speed or maneuver with high risk and high reward, 1h cav to be more of a survivalist type playing it safe. Both of those classes got advantages and disadvantages, a bit different play styles you might say. But in the end both are effective, and if you need guidance as a 1h cav please watch RuConquista_DimaUrban

P.S. if you are about to called me biased, please quote me and prove me wrong
P.S.2 all this also looks like 1h cav players are looking for a scapegoat so the possible nerf on cav is directed into lancers instead of them, while staying silent on their advantages and just pointing the advantages of the other side...
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Bulzur on June 14, 2011, 11:04:32 am
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 10:29:53 am

I consider lancers to be a suicidal maniacs that need extreme speed or maneuver with high risk and high

High risk ? It's not risky to stab stab stab out of range and circling around the ennemy, i don't see the risk here.
I consider playing 1h cav is more risky than playing lance cav, since you do get outrange by some (if not all) polearm and 2h.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 12:01:04 pm
Quote from: Bulzur on June 14, 2011, 11:04:32 am
High risk ? It's not risky to stab stab stab out of range and circling around the ennemy, i don't see the risk here.
I consider playing 1h cav is more risky than playing lance cav, since you do get outrange by some (if not all) polearm and 2h.

if its the only point you disagree with me in my post ill gladly go into details, if you would like to highlight some other points please do it now
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 14, 2011, 12:20:23 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 10:29:53 am
here have a + see if i care (i wont mention i got a lot of - karma also from whatever-lobby-you-are guys, oh shit i just did)

22_King_Plazek im not sure if its only about cav vs cav as many people talk about fighting infantry also but lets start with cav vs cav

this discussion looks like steel pick user complaining about glaive user range of weapon... yes lance is suppose to have advantage (while on full speeds and in some distance to each other) on the 1h cav in cav vs cav duel, because of range (it matters), but 1h cav can deal with that by blocking with shield, stopping other guy, and slashing him which results in either death or being dehorsed

in these situations lancer is defenseless, as we need speed to kill, 1h not, they also got 3/4 directions to attack you with while lancer only 1

the other thing that is better in 1h cav is that with shield the damage transfer when blocking doesnt happen as often, as with downblock i could say its even quite rare to have it, but since i didnt played with a shield for a bit now i wont be doing such bold statement

and lets not forget the "phantom" range of 1h on horse, as we all know sometimes the results are pretty weird, not once have i been killed with a swing in front of a 1h cav (very long arms you say?)

i also remember there was some argument about 0wpf in polearms, well tbh during that short time when lancing had 10 degree attack range? i dumped by lance and took an unloomed elite scimitar and did fairly well to my surprise ;] but sure lances could get tied wpf to the PS just like the thrown weapons or bows, it would for sure eliminate bunch of cav wannabes and make at least some people happy (if of course there are people riding with 0 in polearms)

ok now to the cav vs inf

killing unaware inf is the same for all cav so ill leave it, when it comes to killing aware players you need to to choose proper target.
Rokema said that lancers got only problem with pikemen and bows (i assume xbows also?), i would also add 2h (skilled players) and most noticeable the Flamberg users. Something in this weapon makes it impossible for me to attack user wielding it, i just always end up dead or dehorsed.

Sure lancers might have a slight advantage over 1h cav when it comes to aware inf, but i think that is only in the field of 2h.
On the other hand 1h cav can deal better with players that got very good footwork, thanks to their swings rather than thrusts, for lancers such players would take whole round to deal with with unsure result in the end.

Also 1h cav is better at dealing with archers, when they want to approach archer they can move their horse sideways (to lesses to chance of their horse getting headshot), and take the arrow on the shield and than take archer out before he got his second arrow ready. Lancers on the other hand need to make some evasive maneuvers and hope archer will miss his shot.

When stopped on some rock, wall, peasant with a stick 1h cav got much better chance of surviving it, one because of shield, two because they can swing back at the attackers, lancers on the other hand can only hope that the attackers will fuck it up, as even being successful at stopping their attacks you will get your horse killed thanks to damage transfer

I consider lancers to be a suicidal maniacs that need extreme speed or maneuver with high risk and high reward, 1h cav to be more of a survivalist type playing it safe. Both of those classes got advantages and disadvantages, a bit different play styles you might say. But in the end both are effective, and if you need guidance as a 1h cav please watch RuConquista_DimaUrban

P.S. if you are about to called me biased, please quote me and prove me wrong
P.S.2 all this also looks like 1h cav players are looking for a scapegoat so the possible nerf on cav is directed into lancers instead of them, while staying silent on their advantages and just pointing the advantages of the other side...
lancers can also carry a shield, so there goes almost all of your points. and if you can deal with footwork inf, is more about your horse than about your weapon. lancers don't have higher risk! they can stab from further away! there goes the 10 mins of your life waisted on a post that isn't true...
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 12:51:53 pm
ok lets get to it

Quote from: Bulzur on June 14, 2011, 11:04:32 am
High risk ? It's not risky to stab stab stab out of range and circling around the ennemy, i don't see the risk here.
I consider playing 1h cav is more risky than playing lance cav, since you do get outrange by some (if not all) polearm and 2h.

high risk, in terms of dealing with different classes, going at full speed to its targets where speed bonus works both ways, ofc this principal is also true to 1h cav but i think they are not that much into high speed runs
and if your a 1h cav and your attacking aware polearm users i think your doing it wrong

and out of curiosity do you consider hitting targets easier with lance or 1h ?

Quote from: Berethorn on June 14, 2011, 12:20:23 pm
lancers can also carry a shield, so there goes almost all of your points. and if you can deal with footwork inf, is more about your horse than about your weapon. lancers don't have higher risk! they can stab from further away! there goes the 10 mins of your life waisted on a post that isn't true...

im talking about realistic build, that includes scenario where you get dehorsed, can you fight anyone with heavy lance on foot? its 3 slots with shield, not much more that you can add
and im not talking about light lance and lance, as choosing those you render yourself to killing infantry and non heavy lance cav
i think that only Oberyn stayed true to his build, heavy lance and shield, cant think of any other lancer using shield and heavy lance right now

also i didnt say lancer got higher risk than 1h when dealing with aware inf as you imply, i said i consider it "high risk high reward" you dig?
and lets keep with realistic builds, ones that you actually see on servers

as for wasting my time, thank you for your concern but i find it quite entertaining to read what you guys write here
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 14, 2011, 01:06:21 pm
still 1/3 to 1/2 of all lancers use a lance, shield and a onehander.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 14, 2011, 01:21:32 pm
Quote from: Berethorn on June 14, 2011, 01:06:21 pm
still 1/3 to 1/2 of all lancers use a lance, shield and a onehander.

in the interest of discussion, please remember 95% of statistics are made up on the spot. can we get actual stats on that?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 14, 2011, 01:38:07 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on June 14, 2011, 01:21:32 pm
in the interest of discussion, please remember 95% of statistics are made up on the spot. can we get actual stats on that?
how would you want to masiour that?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 14, 2011, 04:42:41 pm
+1, boost couching make it worthwhile. Nerf poking its far too powerful.

I think they should also add different stirrups and saddles so that some horses are real cav horses and others are for mobility and archery. I mean with out the right saddle you can't lance squat. You would just fly off your horse once you made contact. That would proved a little more definition to the horses and a bit more variety.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 14, 2011, 04:56:23 pm
Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on June 14, 2011, 10:29:53 am
this discussion looks like steel pick user complaining about glaive user range of weapon... yes lance is suppose to have advantage (while on full speeds and in some distance to each other) on the 1h cav in cav vs cav duel, because of range (it matters), but 1h cav can deal with that by blocking with shield, stopping other guy, and slashing him which results in either death or being dehorsed


I'd like to point out I wrote this post and my highest level character is a lancer. These points I'm writing are coming from someone who wants their own class to be nerfed. I very rarely ever ask for a class to be nerfed that I have not tried myself, or am not currently playing. Its not the same as a "glaive nerf" post from a biased steel pick user.

While some of the other people who have posted in support of my ideas are not lancers, that does not make their opinion on the matter invalid at all. Many of them have been lancers in the past.

We don't want lancers nerfed into oblivion; we just want lancers to have solid internal balance among other cavalry. This means that they should have a risk-reward trade-off to other builds. With a lance dealing 28-26p, it makes them one of the highest damaging weapons on horseback, and on top of that, they are also the longest, with excellent poking animation.

I've fiddled with cavalry for about 3 generations and am about to retire. My conclusion was that lance cavalry is the strongest, safest, and easiest to use build out of all of the cavalry types. They should have some drawbacks.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 14, 2011, 05:29:22 pm
Trust me Chagan with the high prevalence of C damage amongst 1h and 2h weapons a sword and horseman will definitely be making (risky) high speed passes so he has a chance of breaking through the opponents armour.

Suggesting otherwise and that lancing is therefore more risky than 1h/2h is ridiculous, to be frank.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Riddaren on June 15, 2011, 02:10:34 am
Seawid: Your "new approach to lancing" would only mean the end of lancing as we know it today.
Right now the statistics are probably: 50% lancers, 40% HA and 10% other melee cavalry.
With your suggestion it would be soemthing like: 10% lancers, 60% HA and 30% other melee cav.
Is that your intention?

Do you want less lancers and more horse archers?
Do you find it easier to dodge an arrow from a horse than a thrusing lance (that can be down blocked)?

---

The game is balanced as it is. Those who think poke lancing is OP should take a look at good infantry players and learn from them.
The reason cavalry players can get a k:d of 10:1 is because of unskilled or unaware infantry players.

On top of that:

In 1 vs 1 situations vs any kind of class a lancer is very predictable and easily dodged or stopped.
In 1 vs 1 situations vs all but other archers the HA is almost invincible.

Not saying HA is OP at the moment. But it will surely become even more powerful with the suggestions of Seawied implemented.

---

"Add a chance to drop a thrusted lance on a high damage hit"
You could add all kinds of random events. But why would you want to do that?
Random events decreases the gap between good and bad players, thus making the game more luck based and less competetive.

"Remove the ability to manual block with lances"
Is this a serious suggestion? :shock:

Anyway:

The ability to be able to block (with or without a shield) is crucial for a cavalry player (not against infantry but against other melee cavalry).

This means that all lancers would be forced to use a shield.
As a result they would also be limited to a 1 slot weapon on back instead of 2.

TBH I don't see what that would accomplish other than nerfing good players like Leed and Torben (who use lance on horse and a 2 slot polearm when dismounted).
But maybe you can come up with a nerf that will only affect good 2H players like Chase and Phyrex as well?

Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Casimir on June 15, 2011, 03:36:37 am
TomMyyY uses a shield with his lance, he seems to do fine on foot...
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Riddaren on June 15, 2011, 09:43:12 am
Quote from: Casimir on June 15, 2011, 03:36:37 am
TomMyyY uses a shield with his lance, he seems to do fine on foot...

Everyone could be playing with the exact same build and equipment. But how fun is that?
What is good about cRPG is the level of customization and diversity.
Or would you rather see everyone fight on foot with 1H + shield?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: 22nd_King_Plazek on June 15, 2011, 05:58:43 pm
lol, on what basis do you make the claim that nerfing lancers will necessarily increase the amount of horse archers?
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 15, 2011, 06:22:26 pm
Quote from: Berethorn on June 10, 2011, 09:12:07 pm
WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET THAT THIS TREAD ISN'T ABOUT NERFING CAV, BUT BALANCING POKE-LANCING AND COUCHING!!! atleast i do. :D
AND NOT ABOUT GETTING MORE HA's, THE ORIGINAL IDEA WON'T MAKE MORE HA BABIES, GET THAT!!!
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Seawied on June 15, 2011, 10:20:52 pm
Quote from: Riddaren on June 15, 2011, 09:43:12 am
What is good about cRPG is the level of customization and diversity.

Riddaren, you hit hammer-dead-on-nail one of the fundamental reasons I have for pushing these changes. As it stands, lancers are hands down stronger than 1h cav or 2h cav or even non-lance polearm cav. There is very little reason to use anything but a lance.

Let's keep HA out of this, as they are an incredibly tricky class to balance.


There are a few things you are overlooking
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Overdriven on June 16, 2011, 09:10:17 am
Quote from: Seawied on June 15, 2011, 10:20:52 pm
  • Some lances currently cannot be used to manually block. This is not noted on the website, but the great lance and jousting lance cannot manual block. By making the tags universal on all lances, you would not see the hordes of heavy-lance wielders on horseback.
  • Several players against my views and who adamantly oppose my change suggestions do concede that lancers are in fact the strongest cavalry units.

The manual block would make bugger all difference. If you took it away, people would hardly notice. Yes it comes in handy sometimes. But that is a very rare situation indeed. You'd still get lots of heavy lancers.

But why shouldn't lancers be the strongest cav? Not all infantry is equal in terms of strength. They have their benefits and weaknesses, as do lancers. I would say that a 2h is stronger than a shielder. Or a war bow is more useful for archers than a strong bow. You can say it about any class.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 16, 2011, 09:17:13 am
hmm, some input.
due to the heavy lance having something like 65 speed, 0 wpf lancing is VERY SLOW. I used to do 0 wpf lancing, but right now the extreme time needed to prep and release the lance means a huge inconvenience against other cav and infantry as they have plenty of time to dodge you. The lance speed at 65 seems to me was a decent nerf and that can remain the way it is.
Lancers do have drawbacks, as a 1h on a horse, if you are ever stopped, you can still fight enemies. As a lancer, if you are stopped chances are you are dead.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Keshian on June 16, 2011, 09:48:04 am
Quote from: Wookimonsta on June 16, 2011, 09:17:13 am
hmm, some input.
due to the heavy lance having something like 65 speed, 0 wpf lancing is VERY SLOW. I used to do 0 wpf lancing, but right now the extreme time needed to prep and release the lance means a huge inconvenience against other cav and infantry as they have plenty of time to dodge you. The lance speed at 65 seems to me was a decent nerf and that can remain the way it is.
Lancers do have drawbacks, as a 1h on a horse, if you are ever stopped, you can still fight enemies. As a lancer, if you are stopped chances are you are dead.

How it plays out practically though is that your stab acts almost like a couch in that you have a large radius of time for anyone to be hit by your lance.  Just start your thrust early and it will last long enough to your target or even a guy ten feet past him.  A lot of lancers have already adjusted to it and find it more useful this way.  Being able to slash when stopped is not a big difference, you've already messed up and either will die or ride off.  I see plenty of lancers with a shield and then either a 1handed sword or a 1 slot polearm.  Having a shield matters a lot more what happens when you are stopped then if you have a polearm or sword.  Most likely you will just block with the shield and ride away.

I agree though that making lances not have manual blocking ability really won't fix or do anything toward balancing.  The most it might do is make more lancers use a shield.  The main issue with lance cav is that the high maneuverability and speed combined with a 190 length (190!!!) polearm makes it a relatively OP class compared to everything else.  Give these horses more hitpoints and armor if they need them, but the maneuver and speed need some significant drops to balance everyone having 6-7 riding skill with champion coursers/arabian warhorses.
Title: Re: A new approach to lancing
Post by: Glyph on June 16, 2011, 02:22:36 pm
Quote from: Wookimonsta on June 16, 2011, 09:17:13 am
hmm, some input.
due to the heavy lance having something like 65 speed, 0 wpf lancing is VERY SLOW. I used to do 0 wpf lancing, but right now the extreme time needed to prep and release the lance means a huge inconvenience against other cav and infantry as they have plenty of time to dodge you. The lance speed at 65 seems to me was a decent nerf and that can remain the way it is.
Lancers do have drawbacks, as a 1h on a horse, if you are ever stopped, you can still fight enemies. As a lancer, if you are stopped chances are you are dead.
but onehanded cav gets stuck 3 times as much a lancers do because lancers can avoid getting stuck and still kill