A new approach to lancing

[Toffi]

I go with some points you stated, but I don't agree on some like:

-'Disable manual blocking on all lances'- every other weapon, even the smallest sword can manual block a lance from full speed, so that would be kind of unbalanced!

-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!

-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless

-'Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.'- you can even couch lance on a sumpter horse or plated charger, so it's fine

[Toffi]

(click to show/hide)

...?

Have you ever been up against a lancer 1v1?

do you use the dagger?

[LordRichrich]

Nerf the lances speed and damage etc but give it a chance to crush through down blocks. Not a big one, just say 1 in every 15 or 20. Because more people are realising they can block down to not be killed by cav. Hell, I even sometimes walk around with down block and it saves my life.

[Toffi]

Nerf the lances speed

Heavy lance's speed got nerfed by -10 already lat patch, I think it#s enough. Heavy lance is the slowest weapon ingame already.

[Lech]

-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!

Great Lance can't poke. Last time i checked it was lance too.

[Toffi]

Great Lance can't poke. Last time i checked it was lance too.

omg yes, the great lance and jousting lance

[Overdriven]

Heavy lance's speed got nerfed by -10 already lat patch, I think it#s enough. Heavy lance is the slowest weapon ingame already.

Yeah heavy lance is nastily slow. It takes a bit of learning to judge your strikes right.

[Dezilagel]

Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust.

Hahahaaa... ha... You play HA right?

[Overdriven]

Hahahaaa... ha... You play HA right?

Yup...but I've played as a lancer, archer and footman in the past. HA is just my most current build.

A war spear is perfectly adequate to take down any cav man except maybe the very best (and they should be hard to take down, they are the best after all).

All this bull about reach means jack all. It's very easy to position yourself to get a good hit on a horseman. When horsemen get those insta kills, it's usually at full speed charging through a group of infantry, or taking out unaware infantry. Slower speed lancing often takes more hits to kill someone unless they are lightly armoured or have taken damage. Either way, it's still easy to take out cav with a war spear.

Besides lots of cav will shy away as soon as they see a long point stick being waved at them. If a few people took a spear and went with the group, then there'd be no problem.

[Lech]

A war spear is perfectly adequate to take down any cav man except maybe the very best (and they should be hard to take down, they are the best after all).

Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.

[Overdriven]

Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.

I've seen plenty of horseman die in one hit from a war spear if you aim at the rider (easy to do). That speed bonus also works for the guy with the spear on the ground you know 

[Glyph]

I've seen plenty of horseman die in one hit from a war spear if you aim at the rider (easy to do). That speed bonus also works for the guy with the spear on the ground you know 

but by doing this you have to strike later so less range... another disadvantage

[Kafein]

Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust. On the other hand a footman can easily side step a horse and get a good spear thrust. It's quite easy to do. The reach of a heavy lance only helps against people who don't really know what they are doing.

Things just don't work like that. Any decent lancer knows the best way to poke safely is to lance on the side, with a 90° angle, to have the greatest distance possible between your horse and the target, and it's easy even with the crappier horses. That way it is completly impossible for any weapon under the size of the heavy lance to land the hit first. Nobody except novice lancers position their horse head closer to the enemy than themselves when they can (and they usually do).

And that's exactly why lancing is broken. Ever heard of people able to do stuff like wielding a very long stick with one hand, completly deployed on the side of your horse at top speed, and hitting an unmoving target without falling from the horse ? The lance fix that was implemented just after the patch was brutal, but it was a move in the good direction.

-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless

You have a tiny range and your ability to turn is greatly reduced when you couch your lance.

[Overdriven]

Things just don't work like that. Any decent lancer knows the best way to poke safely is to lance on the side, with a 90° angle, to have the greatest distance possible between your horse and the target, and it's easy even with the crappier horses. That way it is completly impossible for any weapon under the size of the heavy lance to land the hit first. Nobody except novice lancers position their horse head closer to the enemy than themselves when they can (and they usually do).

And that's exactly why lancing is broken. Ever heard of people able to do stuff like wielding a very long stick with one hand, completly deployed on the side of your horse at top speed, and hitting an unmoving target without falling from the horse ? The lance fix that was implemented just after the patch was brutal, but it was a move in the good direction.




You have a tiny range and your ability to turn is greatly reduced when you couch your lance.

Which is why I agreed to the lancing angle being reduced (as long as its sensible and not excessive), as well as making war spears 1 slot. I think that would be an adequate enough thing to make lancing more difficult.

Sorry but the 'ever heard of argument' is a little bull in a game. Ever heard of a guy in full plate with a giant 2 handed sword jumping the height of a horse, swinging his sword and killing the rider? Didn't think so. There's 1000 examples of things in the game that don't happen in real life.

[Seawied]

I go with some points you stated, but I don't agree on some like:

-'Disable manual blocking on all lances'- every other weapon, even the smallest sword can manual block a lance from full speed, so that would be kind of unbalanced!

The reasoning behind this simple. First off, you cannot block with the couched mode only lances. Secondly, it make lancers have to choose a shield, adding more risk to a lance charge and add a different factor to the game play. Lastly, it would be realistic. Lances were unwieldy weapons; they were not a staff you can twirl around easily and block anything and everything.

-'Weaknesses of Poke-Lancing: Cannot be used by all lances'- sorry but that's simply bullshit, of course you can poke with every lance, even every spear!

as other people have stated, you are incorrect on this issue.

-'Remove the cool-down period for couch-lancing'- That would mean I just ride around and kill everybody with my great lance, so poking is useless

No. Thrusting a lance is still the much safer option of the two. As I mentioned earlier, the number of weapons that can safely stop a horseman couching a lance is much greater than the number of weapons that can safely stop an extended poke-lance. The animation of couching a lance reduces the length of the weapon while the animation to poke someone with a lance extends the reach significantly. We are talking a difference of over 60 length here.

-'Lower the required speed for couch-lancing. Since damage is tied to speed, this would balance itself.'- you can even couch lance on a sumpter horse or plated charger, so it's fine

While you can on a plated charger, one thing I have noticed is that you have to be going at full speed, and a slight change in ground texture will often drop you out of couched mode. One place I noticed this particularly was the classic map "Field by the river." I was using a steppe horse for the experiment, going at full speed towards an infantry with no spear holding the bridge closer to the castle. The kill should have been a given due to the lack of cover and the infantryman's lack of weapon options. However, when the ground changed to the bridge texture, I was knocked out of couched lance mode. I immediately turned around and tried again several times only to discover that it was impossible with a steppe horse and a riding skill of 5 to perform the couch at this location due to the texture difference.

This is just one of a few examples where I noticed the speed requirement for a couch needed to be changed. As stated before, the lower speed would deal less damage as well, and would not be an instant-kill. Lancing at higher speeds would clearly be beneficial.