Author Topic: A new approach to lancing  (Read 11649 times)

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Offline Chaos

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2011, 07:57:53 pm »
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Yes, they should be hard to take on, but even in situation where heavy lance and war spear have the same chance to hit (spear the horse, lance the spearman) lance is superior as it's one hit kill where spearman need to stop good cav twice  to kill his horse then win duel on the ground. Do you find fair that lancer have such advantage ? I feel it's very bad design.

I'm going to assume this is a 1v1 between a lancer with a heavy lance and an infantryman with a war spear or similar length polearm.
First of all, lets play out the lancer is circling an infantryman scenario. In order to get the sweet spot 90 degree angle on the spear guy, the horse is moving at a heavily reduced speed and probably will have a speed bonus that brings the cav guy to damage somewhere near, if not less than, that of the infantryman. If you manage to stop the horse (something that bad cav lets happen but pro cav rarely will in this situation) then that horse should be dead by your hand regardless of how little damage your weapon deals (this is assuming a horse less armored than the destrier). If its not, then someone interfered or you messed up somehow. Realistically, the infantryman rarely stops the horse in this situation. The easiest way to fight this horseman is simply to walk towards him while holding down block. Congratulations, you managed to defeat him. If the cav tries to bump-poke you then stop his horse and finish him. If he hits your down block then wait for the ding and then spam poke his ass.

Now lets assume that the lancer is taking the longer and more strenuous route of backing up in this 1v1 to gain some speed in each of his passes while charging our hero spear infantryman. Its all a matter of patience, really. Downblock that sucker until he makes a mistake, like getting off his horse to fight you on foot. Or maybe he'll try to bump lance, in which case you can stop his horse before he lances your face. Similarly, couching will get that horse stopped or killed because a 150 length polearm will outreach the couched lance.

If you ever find that a lancer is charging you and you dont have a pointy stick handy, downblock and jump out of his way, then spam at his horse's ass. If youre quick about it, chances are decent that on one of those passes, that horse will be moving too slowly and you just removed a nice portion of its hindquarters. Damage adds up.

On the subject of lancing vs. couching, I don't see why they would need to be balanced. The lance thrust is the lancer's bread and butter. Couching is a tool in the lancer's arsenal, the answer to infantry that thinks it can down block forever in an open field without paying attention to the lancer that wants to play. And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

Making the war spear 1 slot isnt such a great solution, that would allow for lance and shield cavalry to take a war spear with them as well. And the war spear would become the one weapon just about every archer and heavy/arbalest xbowman takes with them as a backup melee.

Offline Kafein

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2011, 08:02:07 pm »
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Which is why I agreed to the lancing angle being reduced (as long as its sensible and not excessive), as well as making war spears 1 slot. I think that would be an adequate enough thing to make lancing more difficult.

Sorry but the 'ever heard of argument' is a little bull in a game. Ever heard of a guy in full plate with a giant 2 handed sword jumping the height of a horse, swinging his sword and killing the rider? Didn't think so. There's 1000 examples of things in the game that don't happen in real life.

Well, we came to an agreement then. The "ever heard of" part was to demonstrate that it doesn't do with the realism point of view neither. Some things are unbalanced but realistic, here it's not the case. In fact if things were realistic heavy cav would rape everything. As it stands there's no heavy cav in the game, too much upkeep  :mrgreen:

Reducing the attack angle allowed for poke cavalry would effectively balance it with other kinds of cavalry (couched lance and 1h/2h) that lack it's lateral range.

Offline Seawied

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2011, 08:03:16 pm »
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And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

If you get me the formula that shows this, I would greatly appreciate it, but I think what you are referring to is the potential damage done by a cavalry player in native. Because power strike isn't at a set value like in native multi-player, poking does nearly as much damage as a couched lance in my experience.

When at an obtainable couched lance speed,
A couched lance will kill an infantryman in 1-2 hits, with 1 being more common
A poke-lance with sufficient power strike will kill an infantryman in 1-2 hits, with 2 being the more common number.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Chaos

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2011, 09:06:47 pm »
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I've never seen the equation, only heard tips from people on the old M&B forum. In any case, I prefer the poke fights when on either side of the horse. Mostly because fighting things that are literally impossible to block doesnt sound very fun, and fighting couches is a matter of having the reach to beat it or not. So for gameplay's sake, poking should stay the lancer's bread and butter

Offline Bryggan

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2011, 02:09:23 am »
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I think things would be fine if infantry could work together. A few shielders to block the lance and a pike or two to stop the horse and then everyone hack the crap out of the guy.  unfortuantely cavalry knows this, so they just circle to the rear so we all expose our backs to their archers.  Then people get impatient and start running for cover or blindly charge the enemy and we're all separated again.

I suppose the best option is to truly put the fear of death into everyone.  Then people will work together and you won't have random cavalry guy charging in trying for 2-3 kills before he gets offed.  So imagine if every time you died there was, say a 30% chance your char would be deleted, and all your weaps and armour would go to the victors?  I would hate it myself.  Oh, and we'd need a surrender key.  Then you would spend the next games polishing armour and shovelling horse shit until you earned enough for your ransom.

Offline Banok

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2011, 03:40:20 am »
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I think there's a problem when lancers can bump "slash" infantry, with a lance. Or even bump to the ground and have enough maneuver to stop, come back and score a hit (usually lethal despite low speed) on the defenseless enemy. For example, Torben does both.

true but then all bump slashing even with 1handers is totally retarded, only balanced by the fact its quite hard to do.

Offline Diavolo

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2011, 09:43:35 am »
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I think there are 2 main problems with cavalry right now.

Horses make too little sound. (you can get ninjaed now, you should be able to hear in decent time before he reaches you that he is getting closer, so you can be prepared)

Bumpslash is possible. (bump slashing is extremely annoying, dishonourable, impossible to defend against and unrealistic)


If these 2 things were fixed infantry only need to downblock to defend against cavalry. Currently most cavalry kills are either people getting hit in the back because they didnt notice the horse or people downblocking and should be immortal, but getting bumpslashed and instakilled. If it was inpossible to bumpslash everyone with something they can block with are actually immortal if they hold downblock and face the cavalry. Its a bit worse against 1h/shield cav but against lancers its extremely easy to defend oneself if the cavalry isnt able to bump you or bumpslash you.

So my proposition to all of this: Make it so that whenever cavalry bumps someone, their horse also get damaged a tiny tiny tiny bit. Then when the horse gets damaged the player should not be able to strike for say 1 second. However, they should be able to block. (atleast if they have a shield) That way people will bump a lot less, and bumpslashing become inpossible. Then all lancers can be countered by a peasant with a stick.

Sound level of horses should be increased a bit to make hearing them easier, so people have time to get into immortal form before the lancer gets there.

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Offline Seawied

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2011, 09:58:14 am »
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The idea of cavalry being unable to attack after their horse takes damage is an interesting idea, but 1 second would be much too long. You might want to take that one to the taleworlds website.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline MaHuD

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2011, 10:18:57 am »
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So you are saying that Cav shouldn't be able to bumpslash, shouldn't be able to ninja and shouldn't be able to lance or couch lance someone?

Bumpslash is easy to avoid, and a good way of dealing with someone who is just blocking down all the time...

Offline Vlad007

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2011, 03:10:56 am »
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I think that poke lancing is pretty much bs. As a jouster the impact at speed with a lance has to be couched other wise you have no power and the lance gets smashed out of your hand, its that simple. I think that a heavy lance poked should not out reach a  couched great lance as it makes the great lance redundant. 1/4 or 1/2 the speed component is a good solution for poke lancing
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Offline Seawied

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2011, 03:16:00 am »
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To be honest, I prefer a slower speed lance. Slower speed= longer your attack is extended= more damage opportunity.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2011, 04:47:33 am »
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Down with ridiculous lancing attack angles!

The damage is ok.
The range is fine.
The speed is acceptable.
Everything about the lance is alright.

Or rather it would be if the angle of attack had any semblance to reality.

Offline Lech

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2011, 10:03:59 am »
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I'm going to assume this is a 1v1 between a lancer with a heavy lance and an infantryman with a war spear or similar length polearm.
First of all, lets play out the lancer is circling an infantryman scenario. In order to get the sweet spot 90 degree angle on the spear guy, the horse is moving at a heavily reduced speed and probably will have a speed bonus that brings the cav guy to damage somewhere near, if not less than, that of the infantryman. If you manage to stop the horse (something that bad cav lets happen but pro cav rarely will in this situation) then that horse should be dead by your hand regardless of how little damage your weapon deals (this is assuming a horse less armored than the destrier). If its not, then someone interfered or you messed up somehow. Realistically, the infantryman rarely stops the horse in this situation. The easiest way to fight this horseman is simply to walk towards him while holding down block. Congratulations, you managed to defeat him. If the cav tries to bump-poke you then stop his horse and finish him. If he hits your down block then wait for the ding and then spam poke his ass.

Now lets assume that the lancer is taking the longer and more strenuous route of backing up in this 1v1 to gain some speed in each of his passes while charging our hero spear infantryman. Its all a matter of patience, really. Downblock that sucker until he makes a mistake, like getting off his horse to fight you on foot. Or maybe he'll try to bump lance, in which case you can stop his horse before he lances your face. Similarly, couching will get that horse stopped or killed because a 150 length polearm will outreach the couched lance.

If you ever find that a lancer is charging you and you dont have a pointy stick handy, downblock and jump out of his way, then spam at his horse's ass. If youre quick about it, chances are decent that on one of those passes, that horse will be moving too slowly and you just removed a nice portion of its hindquarters. Damage adds up.

On the subject of lancing vs. couching, I don't see why they would need to be balanced. The lance thrust is the lancer's bread and butter. Couching is a tool in the lancer's arsenal, the answer to infantry that thinks it can down block forever in an open field without paying attention to the lancer that wants to play. And I remember hearing wayyy back that a couched lance triples the damage that would have been achieved by a thrust, but that was back in vanilla M&B and probably has changed by now.

Making the war spear 1 slot isnt such a great solution, that would allow for lance and shield cavalry to take a war spear with them as well. And the war spear would become the one weapon just about every archer and heavy/arbalest xbowman takes with them as a backup melee.

1 slot unsheatable warspear would become no-no choice for ranged troops.

So you are basically stating that war spear user have to be passive and wait for mistake to win the fight ? Not really fair for someone that by design should be capable of dealing with cav 1vs1 (and yes, i use those tactic since early beta).

Down with ridiculous lancing attack angles!

The damage is ok.
The range is fine.
The speed is acceptable.
Everything about the lance is alright.

Or rather it would be if the angle of attack had any semblance to reality.

Damage is bit too high (couched lance have way too big, poking have a bit too high), range would be ok with reduced angles, speed is acceptable.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 10:05:38 am by Lech »

Offline Havoc134

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2011, 10:49:45 am »
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1 slot unsheatable warspear would become no-no choice for ranged troops.

So you are basically stating that war spear user have to be passive and wait for mistake to win the fight ? Not really fair for someone that by design should be capable of dealing with cav 1vs1 (and yes, i use those tactic since early beta).

Damage is bit too high (couched lance have way too big, poking have a bit too high), range would be ok with reduced angles, speed is acceptable.

I missed the part where war spear becomes unsheathable. Unfortunately the drawback of having an unsheathable war spear is that you cannot have it in your pocket to keep for cav rolls around like you can now. Additionally, dropping a shield when you have a war spear out with it instantly becomes more of a hassle as you would have to drop the spear and the shield on the ground then pick up the spear.

And yes, I'm stating that a guy with a heavy lance has the right to outrange you and if he somehow never messes up (and I have seen every lancer make at least one mistake each round, without fail) then he deserves to keep you at bay. Not to say that you can't feint or fake the lancer out with your movement and blocking, I have done so and ended up killing horses with a 2h military scythe.

And I could stand to see an around 3 point decrease in base lance damage, although it already takes me 2-3 hits to kill most infantry with a heavy lance, courser, and 5 ps. And I glance all the time when I release my thrust too early

Offline Ujin

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2011, 11:51:38 am »
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Nerf us more.... please... .yes... harder... HARDER... ooohhh yeaaah.










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