Author Topic: A new approach to lancing  (Read 10140 times)

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Offline Casimir

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2011, 01:17:19 am »
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if you want to kill cav get a long spear / pike.

If your going to nerf it that much, a reduce price of horses significantly, so that you can upkeep them with decent armour and make the lances back to their old speed

furthermore all weapons should be dropable on high damage hits.

also bows should have a chance of snapping, and xbows cracking.

you could also drop throwing weapon and hit yourself! WATCH OUT!
Turtles

Offline Riddaren

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2011, 03:27:48 am »
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(click to show/hide)

That is very true.

(click to show/hide)

Try down blocking or jump aside and slash the horse or the rider when you are about to get couched.
When you have become a good player you will realize that melee cavalry is of no threat if they come alone.
You will become a greater threat to melee cavalry than they are to you and they will avoid you once they start to recognize you.

That's a fact, not an opinion.
If I see Phyrex (a good 2H player) and he sees me I know it's just a waste of time to stay around, so I choose a new target.
If all infantry players were that good, melee cavalry would become obsolete. A buff would be needed. Then I would suggest you would have to both down block and up block incoming attacks from the lance.
It's too bad we are not there already but still in the "nerf this, nerf that" phase of the game, like everyone are noobs. I'm dissapointed.

Fact is that 5 good HA's would humiliate the top 10 infantry players on any map. Still there is more whine about melee cavalry. I'm not saying HA is OP but HA is superior to all other classes on most maps. Sure, they don't do much damage but they are still the winners. They are in command and can spend minutes to get down a guy without having to worry about themselves.

It's also interesting to see that people are still spreading out like hell on all maps instead of using formations. Sure, it' just public server battles, but if that was changed and people would start to really teamplay with formations and stuff melee cavalry would not be able to pick of players one by one like they do now. Melee cavalry would be too predictable and easily confronted alone and would also need to start teamplaying, which there is very little need of right now.

So instead of nerfing and making the game slower and less skill based, start to discuss countertactics and make use of formations already.
You don't need many people for that either. Instead of running alone, group up with players of other classes and protect each other.
Protecting others and making kills together is probably most fun (atleast I think so), but more often you see everyone just pursuing kills on their own not caring much for each other...

Remember this; There are always ways to counter something that is considered OP and suddenly it is not OP anymore. WITHOUT any stat changes.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 03:33:00 am by Riddaren »

Offline Seawied

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2011, 04:36:16 am »
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if you want to kill cav get a long spear / pike.

If your going to nerf it that much, a reduce price of horses significantly, so that you can upkeep them with decent armour and make the lances back to their old speed

furthermore all weapons should be dropable on high damage hits.

also bows should have a chance of snapping, and xbows cracking.

you could also drop throwing weapon and hit yourself! WATCH OUT!

this discussion is about couch lancing vs poke-lancing, not about cav v infantry. Focus on internal cav balance.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Butan

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2011, 04:44:21 am »
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So instead of nerfing and making the game slower and less skill based, start to discuss countertactics and make use of formations already.
You don't need many people for that either. Instead of running alone, group up with players of other classes and protect each other.
Protecting others and making kills together is probably most fun (atleast I think so), but more often you see everyone just pursuing kills on their own not caring much for each other...

Remember this; There are always ways to counter something that is considered OP and suddenly it is not OP anymore. WITHOUT any stat changes.


+1

Offline Bryggan

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2011, 06:12:17 am »
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Following the infantry crowd doesn't help much, because the cav just charges through killing whoever doesn't see them in time, while the rest of us get driven over by our own pursuing cavalry.  For infantry to run in formation tight enough to prevent cav from running through the middle would take a lot of practice, expecially as there are no leaders nor assigned units.  It would be great if we could put pikemen in the front, 1h in the middle and 2 handers in the back, but as it is now we'd just be torn apart by the archers while we try figure out who is where and continually re-form. As it is I don't mind the constant threat from cav, though it would be nicer if a drive by thrust popped at you with a limp wristed single hand held spear wasn't an insta-kill.  You should earn insta kills with the risky couch, kind of like archers need head shots for their instakills. 

Of course without thrust cav vs cav would take forever.  It would be nice if it were worth it for everyone to have a secondary half ass skill then cav could couch with lances and have sword for close work; archers could have their bardiches to defend themselves and 1 hand could throw or have pikes for cav. 2 handers already have their X-bows.

Offline Bjarky

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2011, 07:08:46 am »
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It is false to say that thrust is insta-kill and equal to the couch, usually kills with the thrust attack type get done, because of the enemy already has taken hits from others or is low lvl or has very low armor.
On top of that, you have to hit the head, not the body, a full life medium-high lvl will survive the body thrust hit (have tried it with 140 pole wpf, 7ps and 28p dmg lance without shield and average speed).
If u see a high armor and high lvl full hp enemy, not even the headshot will insta kill him.
And all this has to happen when the enemy is unaware of u, if they are, they simply block u or avoid the stab.
Only high skill cav can do more than this, but if your average like me, wich most cav are, it isn't as easy as people think, u should try it yourselfes.

On the other side, when couching, i haven't seen any person survive a couche hit, there's probably a chance for that, but the person would have to have very high amounts of hp and armor.

Offline Glyph

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2011, 07:50:02 am »
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what i see a lot is that some guy in black armor tries to own everybody and isn't afraid of anyone, but than he doesn't have any head armor and i'm like.  :shock:. i run up to him with my lance and bam hes dead. just because he doesn't have head armor and if i would'vd couched his chest i don't know if i would've killed him
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Offline Seawied

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2011, 10:52:21 am »
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It is false to say that thrust is insta-kill and equal to the couch, usually kills with the thrust attack type get done, because of the enemy already has taken hits from others or is low lvl or has very low armor.
On top of that, you have to hit the head, not the body, a full life medium-high lvl will survive the body thrust hit (have tried it with 140 pole wpf, 7ps and 28p dmg lance without shield and average speed).
If u see a high armor and high lvl full hp enemy, not even the headshot will insta kill him.
And all this has to happen when the enemy is unaware of u, if they are, they simply block u or avoid the stab.
Only high skill cav can do more than this, but if your average like me, wich most cav are, it isn't as easy as people think, u should try it yourselfes.

On the other side, when couching, i haven't seen any person survive a couche hit, there's probably a chance for that, but the person would have to have very high amounts of hp and armor.

With that much power strike, the damage difference between a thrust and a couched lance is negligibility. A couched lance also doesn't always kill in one hit. They actually don't need that good of armor or that high of hp to survive a hit. I've been experimenting with this immensely lately, and the chances of a victim surviving a couched lance are higher than I originally thought as well. If an opponent has mid ranged armor and is running away from the couched lance, they are very likely to survive.

You are correct though, a stab is easily blocked, which I did mention in the original post. If an infantryman has a weapon than isn't long enough to counter a couched lance, couching a lance is the correct choice in tactic. However, because of the animation, the number of weapons able to counter a couched lance is significantly higher than the number of weapons able to deal with the reach of a thrusted lance. A short spear with a shield is long enough to stop a horse safely when the rider is couching a lance. If the rider is using a thrust-lance, a short spear cannot safely stop the horse against a skilled rider.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Banok

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 12:15:21 pm »
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copy and pasta

disabling [manual block] on all would be extremely stupid since lancers can block with a shield anyway. and no shield lancers already gimping ourselves since we dont get 360 degree blocking forcefield. (I would love to see proper 2h lance animations and increased speed/reach than current 1h ones)


as a poke lancer im actually fine with nerfing it, but why in gods gracious pjamas disable manual blocking?

Offline Kafein

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 12:48:14 pm »
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copy and pasta

as a poke lancer im actually fine with nerfing it, but why in gods gracious pjamas disable manual blocking?

I think it's not the right answer but a nerf is still needed. This thread is about balancing couching and pokeing styles.

I think there's a problem when lancers can bump "slash" infantry, with a lance. Or even bump to the ground and have enough maneuver to stop, come back and score a hit (usually lethal despite low speed) on the defenseless enemy. For example, Torben does both.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 01:01:51 pm »
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Fact is that 5 good HA's would humiliate the top 10 infantry players on any map. Still there is more whine about melee cavalry. I'm not saying HA is OP but HA is superior to all other classes on most maps. Sure, they don't do much damage but they are still the winners. They are in command and can spend minutes to get down a guy without having to worry about themselves.

Tis true. 2 HA's can take down an entire unit of infantry, shields and all, very easily. Shields do bugger all when you can circle 2 HAs at opposite points. It's just you rarely see 2 HA's working together in pub games :P When I have had it happen though, it's been a lethal combination. On an open plains map me and another HA took down the full 10 infantry before our infantry even got there.

I disagree with the disabling manual block. Plenty of people use a lance on foot and that's when the manual block becomes useful. I've had my horse downed and have fought and killed several people with a lance on foot in the past. So unless there is a way to disable it ONLY on horseback. Then it's a no no.

As for the argument that spears aren't long enough to counter heavy lances. They are. If a lolstabbing 2H can do it (seen that plenty of times) then a 1 slot medium length spear could as well. It's all about positioning, but it's relatively easy as a footman to counter a heavy lance with a normal spear. I think maybe creating a 1slot medium range spear could be a good alternative to nerfing cav to hell.

Following the infantry crowd doesn't help much, because the cav just charges through killing whoever doesn't see them in time, while the rest of us get driven over by our own pursuing cavalry.  For infantry to run in formation tight enough to prevent cav from running through the middle would take a lot of practice, expecially as there are no leaders nor assigned units. 

The reason it doesn't work is that very few people are willing to take some anti-cav weapons. The average player will not jeopardise his build in any way. The best players often change their equipment to adapt to the situation. So if your team is being owned by cav, take a pike and dedicate yourself to stopping it. That way you'll help your team a lot. But few people are willing to do this. Instead they are happier just continually dying until the next map comes a long and the teams get switched up.

There are plenty of ways to combat cav. Just very few people do what's best for the good of the team rather than individual K/D.

As an HA I recognise the threat of cavalry. So I prioritise my targets:
1. Take cav down.
2. Pikemen (because they take out our cav).
3. Archers (also a danger to cav).
4. 2H
5. If I can, shielders.

Even if it means I don't get a lot of kills sometimes, I can happily sit their knowing I've shot down every enemy cavalryman on the map and often in areas of the map where they are useless for the vast majority of it. There will also be times when I look at the highest scoring player (often 2h) and I hunt them down and pump arrows into them. That way they are ruined as a threat and reduce the possibility of that team winning (I once got HA banned on the ENG server for doing this :( )

If archers and pikemen or other players in general did the same, then it would be a lot better.

I wish there was some way to make horses with riders on count for kills when you down them  :(
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 01:15:35 pm by Overdriven »

Offline Elmetiacos

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2011, 01:14:58 pm »
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The thing that bothers me about "poke" lancing is that you can do it at such a ridiculous angle. Cavalry seem to be able to skewer you (or each other) with the lance poking out at 90 degrees, perpendicular to the direction that the horse is going. The flipside, of course, is that pikes and spears seem to be able to stop horses from the side, too. If there were some way of fixing this, I'd welcome it.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2011, 01:20:52 pm »
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As for the argument that spears aren't long enough to counter heavy lances. They are. If a lolstabbing 2H can do it (seen that plenty of times)


Maybe it happens, but in all seriousness it's only the fault of a wrong timing from the lancer. If both are playing perfectly, the lancer always wins. Even an heavy lance used on foot has less reach than an heavy lance used on a horse and that's fail.


Furthermore, I don't understand why are cav so high in priority for you to kill. You just said they aren't that dangerous, and they certainly are of little to no threat against an HA, but yet they are your priority target ? Wtf dude... Moreover, getting one's horse shot and killed in one or two arrows without any mean of defense is the single most annoying thing in this game...

Offline Overdriven

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2011, 01:22:58 pm »
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Maybe it happens, but in all seriousness it's only the fault of a wrong timing from the lancer. If both are playing perfectly, the lancer always wins. Even an heavy lance used on foot has less reach than an heavy lance used on a horse and that's fail.


Furthermore, I don't understand why are cav so high in priority for you to kill. You just said they aren't that dangerous, and they certainly are of little to no threat against an HA, but yet they are your priority target ? Wtf dude... Moreover, getting one's horse shot and killed in one or two arrows without any mean of defense is the single most annoying thing in this game...

Not at all. I think any average footman can easily do it. A full charging horseman has little ability to manoeuvre once he has dedicated his line to the lance thrust. On the other hand a footman can easily side step a horse and get a good spear thrust. It's quite easy to do. The reach of a heavy lance only helps against people who don't really know what they are doing.

They are high priority because of the reasons stated above. The reason they are dangerous is because most players aren't willing to combat cav. They just keep on going and hope that the cav won't pick them out. However, they are actually very easy to combat. Like I said, it's just most players don't want to compromise their build. But like any build, if you want to combat something you have to adapt. If the enemy has shit loads of archers, you take a shield. If you lose your shield and are fighting 2h, you have to learn how to manual block. If you are an archer and get chased down, you have to find a weapon. So why shouldn't infantry, if there are cavalry killing them, adapt to take down the cavalry? It just seems like they are unwilling to do this.

Yes but if there were more HA who focused on cav, there'd be less cav  :P I think HA's main purpose is to kill cavalry, there's not a lot of point attacking infantry as an HA, unless you have nothing else to do. HA's are definitely a good way of taking cavalry down, but can also be killed relatively easily themselves.

EDIT:

As an add on. This heavy lance thing is also a bit null. The huge amount of lancers use the light lance, it's faster and the shorter length doesn't matter, very few infantry take a polearm to combat cav with so the heavy lances length doesn't make much difference. If you gave infantry a 1 slot, medium length spear. Hell, make the war spear 1 slot again for god's sake. Then that would solve a lot of problems and cavalry would have to be a lot more careful.

O and I would also support perhaps reducing the lance angle. Not to the extent it was previously, that was stupid, but a reduction of some sort is in order.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 01:35:31 pm by Overdriven »

Offline Lech

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Re: A new approach to lancing
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2011, 01:57:35 pm »
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Lance from horseback should deal the same amount of damage as spear used with shield, which means not much. Right now, spears used with shield have damage penalty, and lances used with just 1 hand don't have said penalty. Also, reducing damage of lances and reducing their length by 5 (10 for heavy) would be good.

If it's possible, reduce damage from couched lance by fair amount (to make it not one hit kill wonder) and make it easier to perform (changing animation would be good solution).

Also, reduce the angle for poking and implement some sweet spots for lances. Disabling blocking for all lances would be welcome too.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 01:59:48 pm by Lech »