I use longsword a lot and that weapon can be devastating but still require skill(like everything in that game)
I say that weapon is easy to use and fits best bad players that just spam and prey to win fight
Wtf...
Think the second part was about Dadao and Miaodao. :P
Elite Scimitarghostswing outreaches all 3, so no nurf/change/nothing.
Thanks.
For such a spammy weapon the stab is a bit too long and good. Maybe buff the stab with similarly priced polearmsOh yeah, I forgot the price.
Seriously, how can anyone call the miaodao OP? It's hardly one of the best 2hs...
@ Jarlek - I'm a LS user and I have no problem with raising the prices...I agree...they are dirt cheap.I'm a LS user myself, but that was way before the buff and because it could be used on horseback.(click to show/hide)
Could increase effectiveness with a shield, but reduce effectiveness slightly without. To get an idea of what I mean, think 32 base damage but 94 speed with a shield, and -1/2 speed from the 2h mode. Utility wise, that's a lot better, as a 2h weapon, some might even call that balanced. Oh, and increase cost of course.
I like those thoughts, a couple of questions though:Yes, the morningstar would also get a reduced penalty. Alternatively the pole could get mode removed, in which case they could be turned into 1h where you activate the 2h with x, but this could come with some side effects of its own, not sure exactly.
How would the 1h/2h mode work? Same as now, or like with the langes messer (pressing x). In the second case, would it even work as you would have a weapon that would have 3 modes (1h, 2h, pole)?
Would the Morningstar also get reduced penalties with a shield? (since it is 1h/2h like the bastards)
Alternatively the pole could get mode removed, in which case they could be turned into 1h where you activate the 2h with x, but this could come with some side effects of its own, not sure exactly.
Personally, I've never had issues fighting them and I detest using them myself in strat battles, where I think they are massively overrated(at least for field/open area battles).
I'm a LS user myself, but that was way before the buff and because it could be used on horseback.
It's nice to see that not everyone is biased, but you gotta agree there's a lot of them.(click to show/hide)
Could increase effectiveness with a shield, but reduce effectiveness slightly without. To get an idea of what I mean, think 32 base damage but 94 speed with a shield, and -1/2 speed from the 2h mode. Utility wise, that's a lot better, as a 2h weapon, some might even call that balanced. Oh, and increase cost of course.dont make it 1h/2h weapon
I have a much easier time using 2h than polearm, but experiences vary.I never really liked the idea of giving 2h shove or poles attack nudge.
I know I'd never go polearm for long axe/long bardiche if 2h had a shove nudge without going into half-sword mode though.
I never really liked the idea of giving 2h shove or poles attack nudge.2h nudge have no use at all
2h nudge have no use at all
2h nudge have no use at allPeople just don't understand how to use it, it isn't as straight forward as the pole shove. The effects depend heavily upon the weapon being used.
People just don't understand how to use it, it isn't as straight forward as the pole shove. The effects depend heavily upon the weapon being used.I just hardly see any option to use that in fight, can you tell us what affect that nuge?
Could increase effectiveness with a shield, but reduce effectiveness slightly without. To get an idea of what I mean,
-1/2 speed from the 2h mode.
Remove the ability to use Longsword with a shield, remove the polearm mode from HBS and BS, further distinguishing bastard swords from the longsword.
Remove the ability to use Longsword with a shield, remove the polearm mode from HBS and BS, further distinguishing bastard swords from the longsword. Also a slight speed or damage nerf wouldn't hurt any of these weapons imo (I use a HBS on my 2H).
The longsword IS a type of bastard sword... it is just what it was called in Britain. You could call the longsword a bastard sword and you wouldn't be incorrect. "Bastard sword" is a class of weapons, not just one or two. Removing this ability from it would make as much sense as removing it from the two bastard swords.
I suppose some confusion may come from the fact that there is simply an item in the shop called "bastard sword" but don't forget there is also an item simply called "sword." :/
Actually, longswords in history were swords intended to be used with two hands exclusively. Some were light enough for one handed use though. Bastard swords generally had the dimensions of a 1h sword, but had a lengthened grip to allow the use of a second hand, even if it could only grip the pommel. This is why they were "bastards" -- belonging neither to 1h or 2h sword classifications. Longswords were longer than bastard swords. :)
The terms are kind of fuzzy though, as different time periods called different swords by different names.
These are longswords, used in half-sword grip:(click to show/hide)
Make it so we can turn the sword around and swing it by the blade, do we can do real hilt slashes. Then change it to blunt damage, with knockdown and use polearm wpf.
It's better than polearm nudge and as good as the 1h nudge when you gank someone. When I play 2h I use the nudge a lot to open up an enemy's defense for my teammate.
I do think 2h nudge is useless but i think it should stay that wayNudge disable lasts a lot longer and cannot be blocked, only physically avoided.
Make it so we can turn the sword around and swing it by the blade, do we can do real hilt slashes. Then change it to blunt damage, with knockdown and use polearm wpf.
just make no fuking sens for me
Still trying to find a polearm that even compares to the speed and damage of a longsword, and the stab reach.. IMO these weapons are a bit of a joke when combined with speed and damage compared to any other sword. Just my opinion
Different weapon types perform differently. How surprising!
Longaxe is roughly equivalent to longsword. It's a little slower and a tiny bit more expensive, but does more swing damage and has bonus vs. shields. It's also significantly longer. They're both mid-tier utility weapons and the biggest difference is in how they're perceived.
Personally, I've always thought that the war spear was pretty much the longsword's polearm counterpart in that they're both pretty fast and do medium damage, but stat-wise a longaxe is closer.
Hafted Blade:
Polearms get some sort of weight bonus for blocking attacks
Better reach on left swings (~1 weapon length)
Better reach on right swings (~10 weapon length)
Pole nudge
Guandao cav swings
HBS:
Better speed
Better turn speed (Most noticeable with thrusts)
Better reach on overheads (~3 weapon length)
Better reach on thrusts (~34 weapon length)
Better thrust damage
2H nudge
1H cav swings
I'm pretty sure that a longsword outreaches a long axe in every direction just from the animations.
I think it'd be more fair to compare regular Hafted Blade with Heavy Bastard Sword with animation length differences/utility/price in mind:
Hafted Blade:
Polearms get some sort of weight bonus for blocking attacks
Better reach on left swings (~1 weapon length)
Better reach on right swings (~10 weapon length)
Pole nudge
Guandao cav swings
HBS:
Better speed
Better turn speed (Most noticeable with thrusts)
Better reach on overheads (~3 weapon length)
Better reach on thrusts (~34 weapon length)
Better thrust damage
2H nudge
1H cav swings
I wouldn't mind if they slowed it down 1 pt and added a couple length or something (and removed the 1h capability of it)
HBS > LS > katana > BS in my opinion. And all of them have much better stats than what they should have.still the same ^^
What do you guys think about the 2H Bastard Sword class of weapons, specifically the Bastard Sword, Heavy Bastard Sword and the Longsword? Are they overpowered, or just easy to use? Personally, I've never had issues fighting them and I detest using them myself in strat battles, where I think they are massively overrated(at least for field/open area battles). Not looking for anything fancy here, just gathering opinions and maybe seeing if there are new arguments that I haven't heard before.If you have to bring them up in a post about them being op that just screams that maybe they are not balanced! I have never had a problem with them but alot alot of people complain about the longsword and sas its op. I think just take a speed and a cut off or something that is similar to this.
Can't set the damage exactly since it's done through penalties, but the penalties themselves can be changed as they've already been changed before, just takes convincing cmp.estoc is in the family so u gotta nerf it aslo to check in with balance
Yes, the morningstar would also get a reduced penalty. Alternatively the pole could get mode removed, in which case they could be turned into 1h where you activate the 2h with x, but this could come with some side effects of its own, not sure exactly.
- Kaoklai
Oh snap, I made that thread: http://forum.melee.org/suggestions-corner/make-more-2h-weapons-a-1-2%28bastard%29-weapon-please/ and now found this one...
Well, I would like to know what are the exact stats of bastard weapons in 1H. The formulae from "Game mechanic megathread" are not really easy to understand, I'd like to have the stats stated by the devs.
I think it's secondary mode by pressing X' should be 1h not polearm, that can be reserved for the greatsword class. Then make it's stats customly like they did for the half-swording mode. Something like...
What makes Longsword/HBS seem OP in a lot of situations isn't the weapon's stats, it's the fact that they are the easiest weapons with which to abuse certain warband combat mechanics (hiltslash, spinthrust, "faux-glance" or whatever you want to call it, etc). There are certain Longsword/HBS users than can hit you so early in the attack animation that not a single frame of the swing animation even renders (Miaodao is even worse about this).
I'd like to see the animation sweetspot system totally re-done for all weapon types. Right now, they are mostly a function of power strike and the user's ability to spin around like a methed-out dervish. If it was simplified to be a fixed window (i.e. you can't stab someone at point-blank range no matter how much spinning you do, you can't slash someone that's at your 3 o'clock no matter how much PS you have, etc), that would improve a lot of balance issues while also making combat look less ridiculous. Then you could speed up combat once people actually had to keep their enemies in front of them and maintain a certain range.
P.S.-The 1h mode of the bastard weapons needs to be buffed, so that they perform just slightly worse than the equivalent pure 1h weapon (Longsword should be something like 32c, 21p, 94 speed). Right now, the 1h mode is so laughably bad that no one would ever use it on purpose.
^This. So much, this.Wherever you're getting your information from, stop, it's just not accurate. Sorry to say it, but there isn't a single statement in this whole post that is an accurate expression of crpg gameplay mechanics.
People look at the stats on these weapons and don't realize that 2handed animations are practically +2 - 3 speed compared to others, especially when you add in the fact that for some reason 2handers have time and time again dodged the turn speed nerf that affected pretty much every other class (I know it affected polearms and shielders, not sure about pure 1handers). The absolute dumbest thing about 2handers is that they can 180 stab all the time. Then, factor in the turn speed with their already high side swing speed, and you get instant hiltslashing capabalities. If 2handers just received the long overdue turn speed nerf, then these weapons might approach some semblance of balance.
Wherever you're getting your information from, stop, it's just not accurate. Sorry to say it, but there isn't a single statement in this whole post that is an accurate expression of crpg gameplay mechanics.
I seriously question YOUR knowledge of this game [Tydeus].
[...]The free respec gave me the possibility to try being a 1h-2h hybrid, that I wanted to do long ago, but the low amount of wpf points didn't let me to do it, because I was terribly slow or glancing all the time. Fortunatelly I'm 30 lvl, so no wasting gold and xp on alt stf, and after few tries with alt, I made 15/21 154 1H 120 2H, and with longsword and 100 speed shield(and black armour) it's not bad, I enjoy this, though with normal 1H weapon it's still much easier, because of speed(raw dmg is 31.5 if it's -15%, so not that bad).
P.S.-The 1h mode of the bastard weapons needs to be buffed, so that they perform just slightly worse than the equivalent pure 1h weapon (Longsword should be something like 32c, 21p, 94 speed). Right now, the 1h mode is so laughably bad that no one would ever use it on purpose.
I seriously question YOUR knowledge of this game. You cannot tell me that 2handers can't turn faster than a polearm when they can 180 and polearms can't even come close anymore due to the old wiggly pikes and all.Once again, I find myself reluctantly going through each bit of one of your posts pointing out the inaccuracies.
People look at the stats on these weapons and don't realize that 2handed animations are practically +2 - 3 speed compared to othersWhile you could actually argue that for right-to-left swings(wouldn't necessarily make it true, it would just mean you finally found a good foothold for an argument), you can't for any of the other three directions, I should know, I altered the animations specifically to remove such discrepancies. I was the one who tweaked 3 of the four polearm animations and 2 of the four 1h animations. Go run some actual test rather than relying solely on anecdotal evidence and whatever else you may currently be using.
especially when you add in the fact that for some reason 2handers have time and time again dodged the turn speed nerf that affected pretty much every other class (I know it affected polearms and shielders, not sure about pure 1handers). The absolute dumbest thing about 2handers is that they can 180 stab all the time.I personally worked on the turn speed formula that we are using with Urist, not only does it affect all melee classes, shields play no role in the formula. Furthermore, not all weapons in a class are treated the same way. Urist posted the formula on the forums, I suggest searching for it.
Then, factor in the turn speed with their already high side swing speed, and you get instant hiltslashing capabalities. If 2handers just received the long overdue turn speed nerf, then these weapons might approach some semblance of balance.Turn speed doesn't affect hiltslashing capabilities in the least. Not only can you turn far enough just with the ready animation, but even the slowest turn speed weapons are more than capable of turning enough to allow you to have your opponent positioned at the right spot relative to your facing, to allow you to hiltslash. What makes the biggest difference here is footwork and then weapon damage, this has been covered countless times in the past. As for your conclusion, well it's clearly based on a false premise and is therefore every bit as inaccurate as the rest of your post.
Blah blah blah...
Haha, it's like argueing with a hardcore creationist.
Haha, it's like argueing with a hardcore creationist.
Yep, there is no talking sense into Tydeus.
Yep, there is no talking sense into Tydeus. Myself and the rest of the community OBSERVE 2handers being gay. Tydeus: "Nah man, they are perfectly balanced. Just trust me on this. Here are some numbers that you are forced to believe because I am the only one who can give them to you so I'm gonna just bullshit this."Go download openBRF and look at the animations.
Just more of you accusing me of creating numbers out of thin air because they don't agree with your perception of reality, then I follow up with proof which you still don't seem capable of swallowing. Observation is great, but you have to be honest and aware of the times when your eyes are deceiving you. This is the internet, no one and nothing is ever actually where it appears to be.Yeah no shit I made up numbers, I said "for example" for a reason. Not everyone has access to all the info. At least I don't pull numbers out of my ass and try to pass them off as the truth. For all we know, that could very well be what you are doing since gameplay just doesn't back up what you are saying. And you can't go saying I'm some ignorant dumbass who only complains about what kills him when I only complain about 2handers... or rather, myself and 50% of the community complains about 2handers. The only reason the other 50% doesn't is because they are all the 2handers.Jesus Christ, man. Fine, I'll give you screenshots, lets hope you can follow pictures better than words. :PThis is frame 1 of the release animation, note the location of the tip of the sword, as well as what frame we're on(there are two ways, look at the green vertical line near the bottom of the screen or look at the "1" at the bottom toolbar).(click to show/hide)This is the start of the sweetspot. Again, note the location of the tip as well as what frame we're on(6).(click to show/hide)This is the end of the sweetspot. Once again, focus on where the tip is located as well as what frame we're on(11).(click to show/hide)Finally, we're at the very end of the release animation. Nothing new, you're looking at where the tip is located, as well as verifying that we are indeed at frame 17.(click to show/hide)
To conclude, the tip travels across 13 squares in this entire animation. The sweetspot starts in square 2 and ends in square 10. So with some simple math, 10/13 we can see that about 23% of the total distance the sword moves, comes after the end of the 100% damage sweetspot. As a reminder, Sweetspots for thrust are 35% progression to 65% progression. To see how far in the animation we have progressed, just do the same thing: current frame/total frames. Thus, your made up numbers (when we chose to ignore specifics and only focus on the point that is trying to be communicated) turns out to be completelywrongopposite of reality.
This is the internet, no one and nothing is ever actually where it appears to be.
Haha, it's like argueing with a hardcorecreationistevolutionist.
:mrgreen:Lets not make jokes like that, the last thing we need is more people believing evolution is somehow a "lie".
It's funny how anti-bastard sentiments generally mention the stab as the thing they hate most about it.
Funny because the stab is also a weakness you can exploit. Here's the thing: every time someone stabs, there's a window that causes a stun upon a well-timed block. There are a few players who exploit this. Now, I don't know if it's because two-handers are most familiar with two-handers or if it's something else, but the bastard family of swords seem like the easiest ones to stun to me. Either way, if you're going to complain about 2h, consider this. You can disbelieve, call bullshit, or experiment for yourself in the duel server until you want longsword users to stab you so you can get a free slash in.
While what you say is true, it cannot be used to invalidate opinions.It doesn't need to, it only needs to be relevant to the "balance" discussion, which it is. 2h has the longest recovery time for what he's talking about, more so than 1h or polearm thrusts. When questioning how "balanced" a weapon's thrust is, surely this recovery time is necessary to consider.
To Tydeus:
I have a question about your previously posted animation pics.How should I interprete the shield the figurine is holding in his hand during the entire animation??(click to show/hide)
is this some autoblock during attack? :shock:
I would guess that the shield is there because it's a part of the skeleton. That way you see how the shield would move with different animations. Don't you think you would have noticed the invisible shield during the attack animations?Why should you want to know how the shield moves in an animation the shild never does?
Why should you want to know how the shield moves in an animation the shild never does?
and yea the autoblock was a joke.
I like that a lot, Tydeus.Spathions and paramerions and those choppy weapons erm cleavers!
94 speed and 32 base damage would be longsword, right? So HBS/BS/Katana would get 95-96 speed? I think that's good, too. Would give more variety of really long and somewhat slow 1hs other than the arabian cav sword.(click to show/hide)