cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 09:30:18 pm

Title: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 09:30:18 pm
That will be rage topic, but i have a reason.
I got killed by HX. SB_Akbar headshoted me and i died. He was using non loomed equipment (i know that because i'm using Hierloom pack).
But i was playing on my alt catchArabbit, its a str oriented (30 str) with 7 if character what gives me 79 HP.
I was using Lordly Sallet with Visor and Coif 63 armor.
HA are doing me nothing until they have +3 bodkins, in that option they can kill me with 3 headshots (2 if they are using +3 yumi).
HX is the most unballanced class ever.
End of rage, now i'm goingt to play on Steevee and hunt them down  :twisted:
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 22, 2013, 09:38:05 pm
buff HA
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Jarlek on May 22, 2013, 09:39:45 pm
With good speed bonus on my HA I can 1shot STR tincans too. Worse accuracy, though.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Grumbs on May 22, 2013, 09:42:24 pm
Longbow guy complaining about HX? HX are more like pests than full on threats like archers
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 09:46:14 pm
I'm surviving headshots from long bows and there's no one in melee who is onehitting me.
For example Bonk needs at least 2 hits to kill me with his +3 great maul.
HX needs to be changed. They deal too big dmg, and they are almost unreachable for most players.
Even 1h cav can hardly kill me with one hit, but they have to be in my reach too if they want to kill me.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Grumbs on May 22, 2013, 09:52:06 pm
The solution as far as I can tell is to nerf all ranged

Really though, headshot damage from ranged should be toned down a lot
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 09:53:20 pm
Longbow guy complaining about HX? HX are more like pests than full on threats like archers

As an archers i love killing HX. IMO foot archery is preety ballanced atm and should stay as it is. But a HX is a biggest joke in c-rpg atm.
It's really easy to play, low upkeep, hillarius  high dmg, pinpoint accuracy and mobility.
I don't want to nerf them to the ground, just make them on comparable level with HA
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Blueberry Muffin on May 22, 2013, 09:56:03 pm
Yeh horse xbows often take 1/2 hp from me with 60 body armour. With just a body shot. That plus their accuracy and their maneuverability makes them a ridiculous class. I would frankly remove them.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Prpavi on May 22, 2013, 10:08:12 pm
Yeh horse xbows often take 1/2 hp from me with 60 body armour. With just a body shot. That plus their accuracy and their maneuverability makes them a ridiculous class. I would frankly remove them.

i wouldn't mind never seeing them again also.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Teeth on May 22, 2013, 10:10:36 pm
60% of my hp with a bodyshot by a horse crossbow. I was wearing 79 body armour, that is the maximum body armour in the game and I had 60  max hp. So that is about 36 hitpoints taken away after going through 79 body armour. Simply fucking bullshit. You can talk all you want about speed bonus, but a basic understanding of physics will tell you that the influence of a moving horse is not that significant on the speed of a launched bolt. Speed bonus does not explain this enormous damage potential.

In general I think the protection that armour offers you against melee hits and the protection it offers you against ranged is fucked up. I have been playing full plate on an alt and I take a shit load of melee hits to die, yet 3 arrows or 2 bolts still kill me as always. Armour makes you so slow that you are a complete ranged target and barely helps at all.

On the subject of horse crossbow, nerf them to the level of horse archer. The difference between those two classes is enormous and horse archer is at a good strength now. Only the dedicated still play it instead of every skillless scrub who wants some easy kills as in the case of horse crossbowmen.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 10:14:32 pm
IMO they should stay in c-rpg, bacause it gives some more colors to that game, but they are too strong ATM and I'm telling that as a 2h, not an archer.
It's just silly that they can reload their x-bow on horseback without using any mechanism.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on May 22, 2013, 10:28:44 pm
IMO they should stay in c-rpg, bacause it gives some more colors to that game, but they are too strong ATM and I'm telling that as a 2h, not an archer.
It's just silly that they can reload their x-bow on horseback without using any mechanism.
increase xbow reload speed on horse ... like x2 or x3  from what its now ...

edit:
xbows (should) serve as "sniper-role" analogy to other games - game-design-wise
HX are the "better" and cheaper HA atm ... thats flawed design imo ... no offense
i love playing my HA even with low k/d and loss of hundreds of thousands of gold since i play it ... but HX defo needs to require more skill !
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: BlueKnight on May 22, 2013, 10:35:58 pm
Archer playing with his 2h alt and whining about getting shot  :lol:

Anyway what teeth mentioned is true, that armour gives you proper protection vs melee hits but shitty protection vs ranged. On the other hand I think that if it was giving you pro protection in both cases, then armour would be OP. Super high upkeep, movement & wpf penalty should be followed by good protection. Slightly increased armour significance vs projectiles would be a good thing.

About HX... I remember being teamshot by HX in the chest. 24STR, 6IF and 67 armour and I still lost 50% hp.. From friendly HX
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 22, 2013, 10:39:41 pm
Increase reload speed or remove added speed bonus from horse.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Necrorave on May 22, 2013, 10:46:58 pm
I am not one to complain to change something but I feel this would make sense to give Horse-Crossbowmen and Horse-Archers major differences.  (Plus, we all know a HX on any kind of armored horse is just silly)

Do not touch Horse Archer as it is.
Instead..

Since there are two stages to cav when it comes to speed.  I will call these stages "Steady speed" (Slower) and "Couching speed" (Faster)
The difference is not only the ability to couch at the faster speed, but also the animation of your character's stance changes.

I believe that Horse-Crossbowmen should not be able to reload during Couching Speed.  If you wish to add something to compensate, fair enough.  I really believe that this would help though when it comes to balancing the difference between HA and HX.  HX obviously has more damage and the ability to hold shots for extended time, and a fairly quick reload to go with it.  I think the need to slow down will give rangers on foot and other cav chances to take advantage of a weakspot.  Let's face it, other then the small reload time a HX does not have a weakness (Unless you spawn without a melee but thats besides the point I am trying to make)  While HA does has rapid fire, it lacks damage without speed bonus and is mostly used to support and harass.

This is just my idea, I have nothing against these classes (I have no room to strongly feel for one side or the other mostly because I have never tried these classes.)
This is just me making an observation and creating a solution.

Let me know what you think.

The only "Basic" solution that did not involve nerfing items, skills, or removing Horse-Crossbowmen.  (That I can think of)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on May 22, 2013, 10:48:28 pm
Increase reload speed or remove added speed bonus from horse.
sorry for similar repost, but...
gamedesign-wise its about "a class needs to inherit a role", which means , that there has to be a fun way of playing an HX which other classes dont have ...
make it a mobile sniper with lots of damage and strong surprize-shotgunning-potential ... like : run-bye one-shotting on a curser (which i think offers  quite some fun for HX) but not in that frequence like it currently is, and with some challenge to escape until reloaded (which means longer time to reload for the next assault).
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: BlueKnight on May 22, 2013, 10:49:37 pm
Increase reload speed or remove added speed bonus from horse.
Gurni is the best HX in the world. I'd vote for removing or lowering (if it's possible) the speed bonus from a horseback for projectiles. I hope you can separate somehow arrow and bolt speed bonus, else we would hurt those little, cute HAs.

... like : run-bye one-shotting on a curser

Btw. I'm not sure if my +3 Destrier wasn't killed by 1 bolt of HX.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 10:59:11 pm
I'm not whining about getting shot. When i choose a non shield class i agreed with that i'm gonna get shot preety often. Problem is a dmg i get from tiny weapon wich cost almost nothing.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 22, 2013, 11:12:27 pm
I'm not whining about getting shot. When i choose a non shield class i agreed with that i'm gonna get shot preety often. Problem is a dmg i get from tiny weapon wich cost almost nothing.

Are you complaining about light crossbow as a weapon now? You said HX and that implies it has to be a horse involved as well, making it way more expensive than a longbow, which deals more damage. Justifying it with price won't get you anywhere.

However, the combination of damage and maneuverability makes the class too strong for what is an annoying class for most. At least don't up the strength requirements only, like some have suggested in earlier threads. A 7/30 build is weaker than a higher strength build, but more people play the high agility way for the sake of fun. I've tried both and the (minor) higher damage and draw-rate doesn't make up for the (much) less forgiving nature of play. The reload speed is, in my opinion, a bit closer to the horse archer than it should be.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: BlueKnight on May 22, 2013, 11:19:29 pm
He's just saying that HXs deal bigger dmg than HAs. They can also 1-shot you in the head even though you can survive MW Bodkin from MW longbow. I have both less hp and head armour than steevee on his alt and I survive ROBINHOOD's HS from ~15 meters.

xbow's dmg from horseback is just rly big. That's what topic is about.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: obitus on May 22, 2013, 11:23:30 pm
Use light crossbow for HX, more dmg.

Btw BUFF HX
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 11:28:46 pm
Are you complaining about light crossbow as a weapon now? You said HX and that implies it has to be a horse involved as well, making it way more expensive than a longbow
I counted upkeep of equipment that Abbar was using (i counted Desert Horse also) and it's a bit lower than my upkeep on Steevee (2,122 gold) difference is about 300 gold. I'm not complaining about that tiny x-bow, but about class. IMO all ranged (i'm not telling about throwers), are preety ballanced, except HX (they are just OP)

Use light crossbow for HX, more dmg.
I'm talking about it all the time
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: obitus on May 22, 2013, 11:29:39 pm
Well some people are confused


Hunting crossbow's dmg from horseback is just rly big. That's what topic is about.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 22, 2013, 11:39:37 pm
i mean light x-bow all the time
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 22, 2013, 11:45:22 pm
He's just saying that HXs deal bigger dmg than HAs. They can also 1-shot you in the head even though you can survive MW Bodkin from MW longbow. I have both less hp and head armour than steevee on his alt and I survive ROBINHOOD's HS from ~15 meters.

xbow's dmg from horseback is just rly big. That's what topic is about.

It's too big, especially considering the maneuverability, but while long bows and rus bows usually knock off 60 - 80 % off my hp in one hit, HX is more like 40 - 60 %. I never survive headshots from loomed long bows and rus bows (54 head armour and 21-24 strength and a couple of IF points), and only remember Butan surviving one of mine while playing as Projectile Prick. However, people surviving headshots from my horse crossbowman, while rare, definitely happens more often than with it did on my archer.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: obitus on May 22, 2013, 11:53:56 pm
the difference is hx shoots about 50% as fast
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2013, 11:57:28 pm
I agree, how armor works between ranged and melee weapons is pretty much fucked up.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: BlueKnight on May 23, 2013, 12:02:01 am
i mean light x-bow all the time
Well some people are confused
Yeah my fault, I corrected it. Was out of crpg for month and a half and I mixed something with crossbows. Sorry
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Krax on May 23, 2013, 12:21:16 am
My upkeep is 3810.

Not all HX's are 7/30, but for me personaly i dont really care if they lower our dmg. But i can just imagin the next post after they do it. They delay even longer now !!! hehe
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Thomek on May 23, 2013, 02:34:00 am
I like a challenge, but HX needs to be where HA and Archery is atm, something for the dedicated.
(or just be completely removed. It's a timewasting, obscure troll class with way too much power and survivability.)

I have nothing but respect for those that do archery or even HA nowadays.
I know its actually a hard classes to play. (Not like in many patches past where it was ridiculous.)

Now HX..

I've been one shotted in the body from about 100m by HX on Thomek my lvl 34char, mw armor..

Just ain't right.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: owens on May 23, 2013, 08:29:17 am
Dutchies ARB cav doesnt count
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Sparvico on May 23, 2013, 08:40:45 am
I agree, how armor works is pretty much fucked up.

Fixed that for you.  :P

Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 23, 2013, 11:56:26 am
I don't care about delaying.
I also noticed a funny thing:
Missile speed on strongest +3 bow is 42 (you need 18 str and additional 6PD for it) and regular ligth x-bow missile speed is 44?! For light x-bow you have to get awesome 7 STR.
Bullshit IMO
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 23, 2013, 01:38:56 pm
7. Because choice of the horse is usually arabian, the thing is so fast and maneuverable that by the time you draw your bow, HX will already be outside the valid range. And even when it is in range, it is too damn hard kill it cause it takes MW Long bow 3-4 MW Barbed arrows to put +3 Arabian down.

You greatly overestimate the survivability of the arabian warhorse. You're lucky if you're still running around with 2 arrows in it. Hell, even friendly archers can one-shot my arabian, and that's with 50 % damage reduction!
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 23, 2013, 01:55:37 pm
You can't one shot Arabian(not sure if it is +3) even with MW Throwing Lance. Even body shot wont bring it down with MW Throwing lance, just ask Bloody_Hate.

Let me put it like you then: BULLSHIT. I've ridden the arabian enough to know that it can get one-shot (and more often than you think probably).

I stand by my claim that it takes minimum of 3 MW Barbed arrows to body from MW Long bow to bring down +3 arabian horse.

Fair enough, how much have you played with an arabian? I've played 1h cav, lance cav, hx and ha with both loomed and non-loomed arabian to back up my statements. It's rare that it survives 2-3 projectiles, although it can happen. Usually it dies after the second. My arabian got one-shot by a friendly longbowman today, but it also survived 2 throwing lances to the ass one time, running at max speed away (1hp left). Speed bonus makes it vary a lot, but most of the time it goes down quickly.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Jarlek on May 23, 2013, 02:02:10 pm
I don't care about delaying.
I also noticed a funny thing:
Missile speed on strongest +3 bow is 42 (you need 18 str and additional 6PD for it) and regular ligth x-bow missile speed is 44?! For light x-bow you have to get awesome 7 STR.
Bullshit IMO
Remember that PD increases the missile speed too. I don't remember exactly how much, but try a PD 1 bow with 1 PD and with 6 and you'll see the difference. Same goes for PT and throwing weapons.


@Kulin&Gurni:
Remember speed bonus is a massive factor. I could 1hit arabians with 5pt and franciscas on my 1h/ht when we both rode straight at each other (I was testing it), but I could also need up to 8-9 of them if I was standing still and he was riding away.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: obitus on May 23, 2013, 02:10:35 pm
Everyone can chill -- I have specced HX so it's going to get nerfed into the fucking ground  8-)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: poikakoira on May 23, 2013, 02:26:17 pm
Its stypid to be arbalester couse you cant always one shot people even if you got +3 bolts and xbow, but HX does it alltime and probably has better accuracy becouse they hit always.. :D
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: AvengerC47 on May 23, 2013, 02:29:51 pm
increase xbow reload speed on horse ... like x2 or x3  from what its now ...

this
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: //saxon on May 23, 2013, 02:40:01 pm
60% of my hp with a bodyshot by a horse crossbow. I was wearing 79 body armour, that is the maximum body armour in the game
i must of heard you say this like 5 times in teamspeak these last few days xD and now 1 in writing, marvelous! :D +1
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Corsair831 on May 23, 2013, 02:51:28 pm
just make it so that horse xbow has to stand still to reload

problem solve
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Teeth on May 23, 2013, 02:58:10 pm
Speed bonus makes it vary a lot, but most of the time it goes down quickly.
@Kulin&Gurni:
Remember speed bonus is a massive factor. I could 1hit arabians with 5pt and franciscas on my 1h/ht when we both rode straight at each other (I was testing it), but I could also need up to 8-9 of them if I was standing still and he was riding away.
For throwing, yes. But my impression in any of these horse ranged related threads is that people overestimate the effects of speed bonus when talking horse archery or crossbowery. Here's why:

I am not sure how it is handled in game, but google tells me longbow arrows can go as fast as 300 km/h or 83 m/s in the real life. Longbow are probably quite powerful in comparison to other ingame bows, so let's say arrows travel between 50-80 m/s. I remember Paul stating that arrow velocity in game was pretty close to real life, can't find the post. Bolts are probably towards the high end of this or maybe even faster. As is reflected in their ingame stats, Longbow has 40 missile speed and the Light Crossbow has 44.

Now a horse, how fast is a horse in game? When talking a full speed courser, probably like 50 km/h or 14 m/s. Which means that if I take the slowest case scenario of an arrow or bolt moving at 50 m/s, which is most likely way too low, and the quite fast speed of the horse at 14 m/s towards the target, the bolt speed is:

50+14 = 64 m/s

Which amounts to (64/50 x 100 = 128% ) a 28% increase in missile speed from moving at full speed towards a target compared to standing still. And this is at the best case scenario with a really fast horse and a really slow projectile.

A more likely calculation in my opinion yields a 17,5% increase in missile speed compared to standing still. (80+14 = 94, 94/80 x 100 = 117,5%)



The speed bonus from a moving horse only has a minor impact on the damage you deal. The varying speed of a horse is simply not that significant compared to the speed of a bolt or arrow. From the looks of it, this is true ingame as well as reality. Different case with throwing, which probably moves at like half or a third of the speed of a bolt and arrow, and therefore the varying speed of a horse is a lot more significant.

tl;dr:
You are not going to do twice the damage because you ride towards a person, a quarter or a third increase is about the best you could hope for.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Thomek on May 23, 2013, 03:07:05 pm
Or what you meant to say is that for a high speed projectile the relative movement between the shooter and the target matters less?
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on May 23, 2013, 03:08:06 pm
just make it so that horse xbow has to stand still to reload

problem solve
and what is he supposed to do when chased by a cav mob ?  :idea:
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Corsair831 on May 23, 2013, 03:17:47 pm
and what is he supposed to do when chased by a cav mob ?  :idea:

die
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Jarlek on May 23, 2013, 03:48:14 pm
The speed bonus from a moving horse only has a minor impact on the damage you deal. The varying speed of a horse is simply not that significant compared to the speed of a bolt or arrow. From the looks of it, this is true ingame as well as reality. Different case with throwing, which probably moves at like half or a third of the speed of a bolt and arrow, and therefore the varying speed of a horse is a lot more significant.

tl;dr:
You are not going to do twice the damage because you ride towards a person, a quarter or a third increase is about the best you could hope for.
FYI, we are talking about damage done to the horse moving towards where the projectile is coming from.

The damage bonus from speed bonus is applied before armour is counted, making it matter more than it appears. My warhorse can easily survive 4 throwing lances I'm riding away from, while dying to an arrow/bolt I charge straight at. Speed bonus matters a lot for cavalry.

Gurni saying a warhorse dies almost immedialty and Kulin saying they can take thousands of hits are both correct because of speed bonus. That's one of the worse things with HC since they can stay accurate at much longer ranges than HA they can safely get that speed bonus. On my HA I charge people up close when I want to deal massive damage because of the low accuracy, with HC I can charge towards them further away and still hit+get the speed bonus.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Teeth on May 23, 2013, 04:15:32 pm
FYI, we are talking about damage done to the horse moving towards where the projectile is coming from.
Exactly the same thing lol

(click to show/hide)
I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Joker86 on May 23, 2013, 04:28:18 pm
There is not a single buff or nerf which could fix the problems classes like HX or HA are causing, at least not without nerfing those classes down to unplayability. Which is no solution as well. Devs need to find something which does not have to do something with raising or lowering stats.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 23, 2013, 04:38:20 pm
Or you guys could make HA's more of a counter to HX?

Why the fuk is it always NERF NERF NERF. Can't people actually come up with something more useful than just nerfing them?
(The reload speeds actually might be pretty nice? Or even a WPF setup better for HA's than HX or...)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Joker86 on May 23, 2013, 04:59:14 pm
Well, something like a "hotfix" I could suggest here is the following thing. Keep in mind that I am not happy with that solution at all, as it poses a nerf, but until something else is done by the developers (e.g. implementing conquest mode) it's the easiest way to fix things.

Step one: make all crossbows unable to use on horseback.

Step two: create two (or how many you like) new crossbows with the same models of the hunting crossbow, the light crossbow, etc.

Step three: keep their stats (including upkeep) the same like for their old counterpart, but remove the "can't use on horseback"-tag again

Step four: lower reloading speed, accuracy, damage or whatever you like. If you want, lower upkeep a bit, but take care the new upkeep is not low enough to justify the use of those crossbows for infantry.

Step five: call them "cavalry crossbows" or something like that.

Step six: grant all horse crossbowmen a free respec and all owners of heirloomed light and hunting crossbows a free heirloom point reset for their weapons, as we want to stay fair, don't we?
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: JackieChan on May 23, 2013, 05:03:12 pm
Well, something like a "hotfix" I could suggest here is the following thing. Keep in mind that I am not happy with that solution at all, as it poses a nerf, but until something else is done by the developers (e.g. implementing conquest mode) it's the easiest way to fix things.

Step one: make all crossbows unable to use on horseback.

Step two: create two (or how many you like) new crossbows with the same models of the hunting crossbow, the light crossbow, etc.

Step three: keep their stats (including upkeep) the same like for their old counterpart, but remove the "can't use on horseback"-tag again

Step four: lower reloading speed, accuracy, damage or whatever you like. If you want, lower upkeep a bit, but take care the new upkeep is not low enough to justify the use of those crossbows for infantry.

Step five: call them "cavalry crossbows" or something like that.

Step six: grant all horse crossbowmen a free respec and all owners of heirloomed light and hunting crossbows a free heirloom point reset for their weapons, as we want to stay fair, don't we?
As this is ever going to happen.  :lol:

Imo either reduce speed bonus for HX, dmg or accuracy, but not all at once like you did with HA (which made the class utterly useless)

With good speed bonus on my HA I can 1shot STR tincans too. Worse accuracy, though.
I am really surpised you can do that, most times i try shooting people with armor above a certain weight, arrows bounces 50% of the time or do no dmg (fully loomed gear btw).
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Michael on May 23, 2013, 05:09:14 pm
Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse? 
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Joker86 on May 23, 2013, 05:12:31 pm
As this is ever going to happen.  :lol:

Imo either reduce speed bonus for HX, dmg or accuracy, but not all at once like you did with HA (which made the class utterly useless)

Why shouldn't that happen? It's the easiest way and requires the least programming work, in difference to all the other, more "dynamic" ideas (like seperate speed bonus calculation for HXs and whatnot). Keep in mind the devs are occupied with M:BG, and cRPG will most likely never see any major update again.

And the things I listed up above were not meant to represent the changes I would make. I just wanted to point out some things which could be changed, which means you can change one, two or more of those values. But not neccessarily all.

Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Any HX with a brain stays away from enemy ranged or tries to catch them unaware. And there are easier targets than those rather fast moving HXs.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse?

The same reason why archers don't hunt down shielders or cavalry don't hunt down pikemen. The HX is moving faster than the plated horse, but dishing out piercing damage. It would be one of the most stupid ways to get your steed killed.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: JackieChan on May 23, 2013, 05:25:21 pm
Why shouldn't that happen? It's the easiest way and requires the least programming work, in difference to all the other, more "dynamic" ideas (like seperate speed bonus calculation for HXs and whatnot). Keep in mind the devs are occupied with M:BG, and cRPG will most likely never see any major update again.
It woulnt happen because this is crpg, every thing done to fix a class was to nerfs its stats. After thinking about it, even asking for a change in speed bonus for HX would be to much. I dont think the fact that devs are busy with M:BG would change anything of this. Crpg has been about nerfing and buffing class in the most simple ways , i dont think this will change anytime soon.

According to the devs there is going to be a "major" update in the future ( WM recalculation and new XP system). Maybe they were just empty promises.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Jarlek on May 23, 2013, 05:42:42 pm
Exactly the same thing lol
I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.
Horse throwing can do amazing amount of damage. Ask zlisch how many survives a charge+lance in the chest. The reason you don't see many of them is that both HA and HC is much more accurate while carrying a lot more ammo.

Teeth, the speed bonus does affect it a lot. If you don't believe me, just head over to EU3, find an archer or crossbowman and compare the damage done to your horse while charging him at full speed and when riding away from him. Similarly: when I shoot a horse that rides away from me with my longbow I get 1 point. When I shoot a horse riding towards me I get 3-4.

EDIT:
I am really surpised you can do that, most times i try shooting people with armor above a certain weight, arrows bounces 50% of the time or do no dmg (fully loomed gear btw).
On headshots, 6 pd and bodkins, yes. Doesn't happen all the time but on a straight charge I can get great damage. Using a +3 Bow, btw, since the lower missile speed gives you a better speed bonus. The extra damage from the speed bonus + the 2.1x damage from headshots all buffing the damage BEFORE armour counts = shitloads of damage.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Rumblood on May 23, 2013, 05:56:33 pm
Exactly the same thing lol
I only stated the difference in missile speed because I don't know how that carries over to damage. It is possible that 20% more missile speed means 25% more damage, but the differences you imply here, I call bullshit on that. If speed bonus really had such an effect then horse throwing would be fucking amazing. What you are seeing is a difference in builds and the random damage fudge factor I guess, no way you can attribute such differences to speed bonus for bolts and arrows.

Horse throwing is amazing. The reason is isn't fucking amazing is lack of accuracy, lack of range, and lack of ammo.

Just two short questions:

Why footmen-rangers dont shoot mounted crossbowmen? At least the (unarmored) horse should be easy to hit.

Why melee horsemen dont hunt down crossbowmen on a plated horse?

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Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 23, 2013, 06:28:42 pm
This one time, a guy killed me when he normally wouldn't, please nerf him.  Also "x" class took away 50% of my health, and "y" class only ever takes away 25%.  Nerf "x" please.

Signed,

c-rpg community
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 24, 2013, 01:07:08 am
(click to show/hide)

Please Note: Dedicated Horse Crossbow. I don't think anyone's arguing a dedicated HC. Dedicated ANYTHING is good at it's class.
Put up a Compairson picture of a HA and lets see.
(You'll have less accuracy, faster rate of fire, and lower damage at normal shooting range)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Torost on May 24, 2013, 02:42:54 am
On or off horseback ..

Crossbowing in crpg have always been way too viable compared to other forms of fighting.
(upkeep,looming,accuracy,restrictions on armor,dmg,skillpoints,playstyle,slots)

All the small things sum up to a big advantage.

It has been blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look for the past years.
Unfortunatly some of the unbalancers had a crossbowfetish.

The pope did not ban them for nothing, they were OP in real life too back then.
So it is realism , but this is a game....

I am pretty sure, that if crossbows were REMOVED from crpg.
EVERYONE would have a better time.

I gave up the anticrossbowcrusade long time ago, maybe someone more naive than me can take over? :D
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Jarold on May 24, 2013, 03:17:08 am
On or off horseback ..

Crossbowing in crpg have always been way too viable compared to other forms of fighting.
(upkeep,looming,accuracy,restrictions on armor,dmg,skillpoints,playstyle,slots)

All the small things sum up to a big advantage.

It has been blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look for the past years.
Unfortunatly some of the unbalancers had a crossbowfetish.

The pope did not ban them for nothing, they were OP in real life too back then.
So it is realism , but this is a game....

I am pretty sure, that if crossbows were REMOVED from crpg.
EVERYONE would have a better time.

I gave up the anticrossbowcrusade long time ago, maybe someone more naive than me can take over? :D



Crossbows should not be removed, they're an integral part of the game. Should their damage be nerfed? Now I don't have anything to say on that but we're talking about HX not all crossbow classes.....or are we!
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Grumbs on May 24, 2013, 03:24:07 am
Xbows always been OP for how passive you can be while still dealing damage. Horse Xbow is just as bad but they can kite while reloading
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 24, 2013, 12:21:54 pm
(click to show/hide)

Considering I've just raged once or twice because of xbows, they can't be that unbalanced. The amount of times I've been pissoed off by archers: 13 946 :D
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Macropus on May 24, 2013, 12:48:17 pm
The amount of times I've been pissoed off by archers: 13 946 :D
Is that your death count?  :)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 24, 2013, 12:49:39 pm
Well, something like a "hotfix" I could suggest here is the following thing. Keep in mind that I am not happy with that solution at all, as it poses a nerf, but until something else is done by the developers (e.g. implementing conquest mode) it's the easiest way to fix things.

Stop mixing up these things. You want conquest mode because you can balance classes better? Fine. I would like to try it out as well. Has nothing to do with Battle.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Joker86 on May 24, 2013, 01:16:20 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you want to tell me?

I say that the class balance is heavily dependent on the game mode. People complain only little about archers or crossbows in siege (actually siege players complain little about classes at all). And nobody even tries to complain about how UP cavalry is on siege, because it is a siege and cavalry has no place in siege. But people somehow fail to see how infantry not really suited for battle mode in its current shape, and yet the majority of the players sees them as the main class of the game. This is where a lot of problems origin from. And this is where I also see the problem with the horse-crossbowmen.

And yes, my suggestion is actually going against my principles, but it's more likely to have a nerf implemented on short term. If you have an open fracture in the wilderness, you stabilize it with a branch and bandage it with your shirt. You don't wait for a team of surgeons to be landed by helicopter to properly clean and close the wound. That's why there should be crappy horseback-crossbows, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 24, 2013, 03:54:15 pm
This is for 95% of you in this thread (regardless of how long you've been playing):

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Why do we have to have this horse xbow thread every week?  It's just as bad as it was for the archery threads a few months ago.   I can't say that your tactic is wrong, I'm sure the devs will now be nerfing horse xbows, I just think that your position is wrong.  Nothing is overpowered in the game, horse xbows have their place on the battlefield just like anyone else.  If you're getting owned by a horse xbow, then you need to change what you're doing, not expecting the other guy to have to change because of your stupidity or ignorance (or lack of team play). 

Fucking christ QQ'ers, nothing has been so overpowered in the last 2 years that it required a nerf.  Nothing. 
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Necrorave on May 24, 2013, 04:01:03 pm
Fucking christ QQ'ers, nothing has been so overpowered in the last 2 years that it required a nerf.  Nothing.

I agree with you until here.  Nerf Shit-posters
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on May 24, 2013, 04:29:06 pm

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i gonna have to agree here with you, since buffnerfnerfbuffbuffnerfnerffQQ has nothing to do with really ballancing anything.
I merely question the purpose of HA and HX having pretty much same roles in cRPG aka annoying mobile ranged anti-cav, distraction ... something ( where HX is quite more effective aswell as cheaper btw)
i rather like HAs having about similar effectiveness and HX occupying a different role model / playstyle  ... or just make them same effective and let players chose how they want to look like basically ...

edit: that makes up for an interresting question for me .. would players characterize HAs as same annoying/effective as HX ? and if (or if not) why is HA so expensive compared to HX ?
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 24, 2013, 04:51:19 pm
The difference of RoF between HX and HA should be a bit larger than it is now. Just nerf HX reload speed with 15-20 % or so.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 24, 2013, 05:04:13 pm
I could be on board with a slight increase in reload time when you're on a horse compared to being on foot...but I still don't think it's necessary.  Ask the Knights at Agincourt if archers were OP.  I bet they tell you that they were.  But in a different setting (map) and a different formation/tactic, those archers get steam rolled.  I love crpg and warband specifically because of all the different classes, play styles and nuances in between.  I like that some things are powerful in one situation, and weak in others.  Try not to put yourself in a situation to get steam rolled.  If you do, then try to improve next round. 
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: obitus on May 24, 2013, 05:06:17 pm
Nerf everything but 2h

(oh wait LOL)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Necrorave on May 24, 2013, 05:15:54 pm
I already posted my idea so mentioning anything about HX is kinda void now.

Although, I will say that I think any type of game balancing should be through game mechanics rather then the items or skills themselves (Course that is harder to do, but in the end it makes the most sense and its fair.)

I still think messing with reloads should be the way to go.

My opinion though:
(http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/solution-to-hx/)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: naduril on May 24, 2013, 06:08:33 pm
Two pretty nice suggestions:
Necrorave - reload only on non-couching speed
Joker - add absolutely similar xbow (hunting, light), call it cavalry and reduce damage.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Mr.K. on May 24, 2013, 10:12:09 pm
I did a quick test with all un-loomed HX gear. Against medium armor you get around 3-4 times the damage when you run at full speed with a Courser compared to standing still. Against plate armor the damage difference is closer to 10 times. I used the "standard" HX build, 7/30. I did around 20% damage on a full gothic plate str crutcher. With loomed gear, I'm pretty sure I would do close to double that. I hope someone can test this.

Here's two screenshots, one at full speed on a Courser, one standing still. Guess which is which.

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 (http://imageshack.us/a/img802/7039/mb3s.png)
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 (http://imageshack.us/a/img824/7360/mb4k.png)

Now tell me this ain't bullshit.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Bronto on May 25, 2013, 12:52:14 am
Lol welcome to NA 6 months ago. Wait until you guys figure out horse throwers, they're even worse.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Overdriven on May 25, 2013, 01:22:32 am
Nerf them to the same level of HA. Then I'll be happy.

This is for 95% of you in this thread (regardless of how long you've been playing):

Why do we have to have this horse xbow thread every week?  It's just as bad as it was for the archery threads a few months ago.   I can't say that your tactic is wrong, I'm sure the devs will now be nerfing horse xbows, I just think that your position is wrong.  Nothing is overpowered in the game, horse xbows have their place on the battlefield just like anyone else.  If you're getting owned by a horse xbow, then you need to change what you're doing, not expecting the other guy to have to change because of your stupidity or ignorance (or lack of team play). 

Fucking christ QQ'ers, nothing has been so overpowered in the last 2 years that it required a nerf.  Nothing.

HA got nerfed because of these threads. HX should suffer the same. As should 2H for that matter.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Bronto on May 25, 2013, 01:38:20 am
Just buff HA. Make longbow usable from horseback. Problem?
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Rumblood on May 25, 2013, 08:50:38 am
Just buff HA. Make longbow usable from horseback. Problem?

Yes. Upkeep. Lower it for bows and arrows.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Lt_Anders on May 25, 2013, 05:59:56 pm
Yes. Upkeep. Lower it for bows and arrows.

You'll have 2h heavy armor complain that Archers make more money again and get it reverted 1 year from now.
(That's why archers pay so much NOW cause people complained that archers made to much money THEN)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Krax on May 26, 2013, 02:15:52 pm
Since HX after reading this is the most op thing thats ever been in crpg, why is it that you never see em on top of the score list. reading this it sounds like when you spawn as a HX you just ride around 1shoting everything thats on there...

Im normaly around the middle of the scoreboard most of the time. And more than once iv had the tincan laughing at me telling me i did 0 dmg.

to the ppl hating me, well im a product of how the community have treated me.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 26, 2013, 02:38:03 pm
Also, to the ones that always complain about HX not dismounting as last person on a team. I've been promised duels with a shitty nomad sabre, 0 ath and 0 ps so many times only to be ganked the moment I step down from my horses. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's the community's fault I run around on my horse as the last guy.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Rebelyell on May 26, 2013, 05:25:04 pm
Also, to the ones that always complain about HX not dismounting as last person on a team. I've been promised duels with a shitty nomad sabre, 0 ath and 0 ps so many times only to be ganked the moment I step down from my horses. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. It's the community's fault I run around on my horse as the last guy.
because no one like you
even your teammates
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 27, 2013, 03:11:35 am
because no one like you
even your teammates

Said the longsword spammer! :lol:
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 27, 2013, 12:18:26 pm
Horse throwing can do amazing amount of damage. Ask zlisch how many survives a charge+lance in the chest. The reason you don't see many of them is that both HA and HC is much more accurate while carrying a lot more ammo.
I'll answer with how many dies instead, 50-60% of all light armored people (horsecrossbowmen, light infantry, my old friendchers, ha, etc), and people who are already wounded, this is when I'm riding towards them and they're standing still, around the same amount who'll survive me shooting them with an arb with the horseranged damage penalty if we're both standing still. also Gurnisson, it's funny how you talk about your arabian never surviving any ranged hits yet ride around with two throwing lances in your horse, thrown while you were riding towards me.
Only really decent suggestion to fix HX is forcing them to only reload while trotting, that should give other cav some minor chance of catching them, it'll mostly just be like kiting archers though, if you slow them down, and they're still the least faster than regular cavalry, then they'll just run for longer before shooting, it's still one of the only suggestions that won't have extremely retarded consequences though.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: MountedRhader on May 27, 2013, 12:25:57 pm
I have fought them. They are annoying, but rarely do they do much against my plated charger. Usually, they get tired of shooting it and seek weaker prey, such as that group of peasants clustered around a shed, or those afk'ers (which are ever present) at spawn. They fill the HA vacuum, but are a little bit more ridiculous yet.


Out of the frying pan and into the fire.


The steel-bolt fire.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: AvengerC47 on May 27, 2013, 12:56:46 pm
The better than reloading only at slower speed is if they will not have so good acc at high speed, so they will slow down to shoot, like HAs.
Some ppl shows us whats their acc when standing still and riding

And xbows should be reloaded slower on horse than ground.
We can make a possibility for realoading small xbows (same that can be reloaded on horse) while walking too. Usually no one is using it because of small dmg (non counting HX ofc ;]), so they will have a second life in crpg after changing it to 2 slots
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on May 27, 2013, 01:38:14 pm
i really dont like how ppl want to put HX in same pot with HA and also try to nerf them to level of HA ... they should be very distinct and require their very unique playstyle; much more than currently ... one the more spammy and inaccurate class (HA) and one more accurate class with higher projectile damage and speed(HX obv). This is only natural for both of them ... i say this also from HA PoV because , i would like HA to have its own domain back and not having HX on the field as the "better HA" ...
decrease for reload speed on high horse speed, and overall less reloadspeed along with high(or even higher than atm?) damage and accuracy could do the trick imho
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Memento_Mori on May 27, 2013, 01:53:51 pm
i would like HA to have its own domain back and not having HX on the field as the "better HA" ...



Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 27, 2013, 02:45:29 pm
also Gurnisson, it's funny how you talk about your arabian never surviving any ranged hits yet ride around with two throwing lances in your horse, thrown while you were riding towards me.

Good lying man. W-key hero away from you with your lances in my ass, and like I said, the damage varies a lot because of the speed bonus. And I already said previously that my arabian survived your two throwing lances (which was from horseback and riding full speed away making it deal piss poor damage compared to normal)

Fair enough, how much have you played with an arabian? I've played 1h cav, lance cav, hx and ha with both loomed and non-loomed arabian to back up my statements. It's rare that it survives 2-3 projectiles, although it can happen. Usually it dies after the second. My arabian got one-shot by a friendly longbowman today, but it also survived 2 throwing lances to the ass one time, running at max speed away (1hp left). Speed bonus makes it vary a lot, but most of the time it goes down quickly.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Rebelyell on May 27, 2013, 02:48:29 pm
Said the longsword spammer! :lol:

and we  know how to live with weak beings that hate  our superior skills
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Prpavi on May 27, 2013, 04:23:55 pm
Mount and Ranged, the real name of the game, get with the program pplz!

buff HX, HA!!!
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: AntiBlitz on May 27, 2013, 04:55:24 pm
It's about damn time this trash has worked it's way to EU, NA has been plagued with HX for well over a year now.  Yet nothing will have been done until someone from EU complains about it enough to get shit changed. 

Like every other person has said in the thread, they are just overpowered, they shoot and then run away making them one of the hardest classes to kill, and then they are always left over at the end of the round mopping up all the left over troops, for like 3 or so minutes.  They have so much riding that no cav can catch them, and a HA has a hard time dealing with them because they shoot more accurately as well as downing the HA horse within 2 or so shots. 

The only enemy the HX has is it's bolt pouch, they run out of ammo before anybody can kill them, and then are forced to suicide, as they are too weak to pick up any weapons.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Templar_Steevee on May 27, 2013, 06:37:56 pm
EU players are bigger trolls and whiners  :mrgreen:
Also, to the ones that always complain about HX not dismounting as last person on a team. I've been promised duels with a shitty nomad sabre, 0 ath and 0 ps so many times only to be ganked the moment I step down from my horses.
Gurnisson you are expecting fair duels after playng totally gay whole round?
HX are pissing off everyone all the time and that's why non of them (even you) will have a duel at the end.
As an archer I'm even not asking for duels, it's just a waste of time...  :D
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on May 27, 2013, 07:12:12 pm
Gurnisson you are expecting fair duels after playng totally gay whole round?

Like I said, not anymore. I just gay around on my horse and shoot the bastards for as long as I can nowadays, instead of just dying to a bounce in a duel. It's fine by me, though I never understood why anyone would push HX in that direction. Getting them down in the end where they're completely useless is better than them riding around shooting, no? :)
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: San on May 27, 2013, 07:39:33 pm
Cav is way too tanky when riding away and that factor should definitely be reduced. When I am on ground, a ranged attack deals 30-40% on average if it's an arrow and 40-70% if it's a bolt to ~55 body armor. If I ride away on a horse, it easily gets reduced to half or more of that damage. Stabbing cav who are running away from me also takes 3-4 stabs at least with a decked out lance, even when the cav player is only wearing rags. An angry infantryman hits my horse when I am running away and are lucky to take 1/3 off my +3 rouncey's health as long as it's not a great long bardiche or something similar. The way damage taken works for cav just advocates an evasive playstyle that only benefits HX even more.

For cav lobbyists complaining about their horses dying in 1-2 hits, I don't care if damage taken when riding forward is reduced as long as damage taken when running away is increased.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on May 27, 2013, 08:51:40 pm
Quote
I don't care if damage taken when riding forward is reduced as long as damage taken when running away is increased.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 27, 2013, 10:53:18 pm
Good lying man. W-key hero away from you with your lances in my ass, and like I said, the damage varies a lot because of the speed bonus. And I already said previously that my arabian survived your two throwing lances (which was from horseback and riding full speed away making it deal piss poor damage compared to normal)
You weren't riding away from me, one of them might have been in the leg though, I've played HT long enough to not even bother shooting if that's the case, which due to HX being the fastest cavalry around, makes their longer reloading time not matter much against other cavalry. My old 3+ arabian also took 2-3 lances thrown from the ground to kill it while standing still at facehug range, 2 if they were body shots, 3 if one of the initial 2 were leg shots.

Just wanna make something clear, I don't think you're a bad hx, in fact, you're one of EUs best, your idea of how fragile an arabian is is complete bs though, and no, my steppe horse isn't that much weaker, and HX isn't overpowered, it's horseranged though, and all horseranged needs to be weak in one way or another to make up for how gay it can be, and the huge my old friendgy delaying it can cause, including horsethrowing, and before the weight nerfs, including ground archery.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Mr.K. on June 09, 2013, 02:25:55 pm
Up we go. Why hasn't this shit been nerfed yet? Even with +0 gear HX is gay and OP while HA is basically useless. HX needs a huge nerf to make HAs more valid.

I already wrote this, but it's somewhere deep in this or some other QQ thread, so here's a comparison between these two horse ranged classes:

HX is far more accurate and loses no accuracy at full speed
HA is accurate standing still, but can only hit slow moving horses when moving himself
HX can do close to 50% damage against a str crutcher in plate
HA can do no damage to a guy in plate
HX has 10 riding meaning no other cav will ever catch him
HA has 5-7 riding and has to move slow, leaving him a large target for any ranged or fast moving cavalry
HX upkeep is far lower due to bolts not breaking every single round
HA will lose gold even with tatar arrows, bodkins will make you go bankrupt faster than Greece
HX doesn't need PD
HA shoots faster and can get two shots in before HX has reloaded
HX will just ride away from you to reload and if you shoot while his riding away, you deal close zero damage even if you hit
HA has more ammo

HX would be ok, if they couldn't exploit the speed bonus any harder than HA. Right now they can gain up to ten times the damage with speed bonus and they don't lose a bit of accuracy. That's what needs to be nerfed.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on June 09, 2013, 02:48:04 pm
(click to show/hide)
HX has no resonable medival role attached to ... it has same medival immersion factor as motorcycle riding
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Gurnisson on June 09, 2013, 03:41:16 pm
HX would be ok, if they couldn't exploit the speed bonus any harder than HA. Right now they can gain up to ten times the damage with speed bonus and they don't lose a bit of accuracy. That's what needs to be nerfed.

QFT. That change was ridiculous, especially considering the HX can have up to 10 riding. The damage increase is just way too high at the moment.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: sdfjkln on June 09, 2013, 06:39:16 pm
(click to show/hide)
HX has no resonable medival role attached to ... it has same medival immersion factor as motorcycle riding
History is unreasonable? Took me 5 minutes to find a page from an old combat manual dating to 1467 for dealing with HX.
(click to show/hide)

The trick is to get us in a headlock:
(click to show/hide)

Seriously though, hang around friendly archers/xbow/throwers and you'll notice HX don't pester you as much. I know for a fact, one person in this thread complaining is just a bad melee cav who always tries to engage me alone.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Micah on June 09, 2013, 08:04:32 pm
History is unreasonable? Took me 5 minutes to find a page old combat manual dating to 1467 for dealing with HX.
(click to show/hide)

The trick is to get us in a headlock:
(click to show/hide)

Seriously though, hang around friendly archers/xbow/throwers and you'll notice HX don't pester you as much. I know for a fact, one person in this thread complaining is just a bad melee cav who always tries to engage me alone.
i was more refering to the role-image, the identification image of the class
(click to show/hide)

so, now you tell me what role you imagine if playing as an HX ... i know of two possibilities
1) mounted firearm soldier - yeah , but reloading medival firearms on fullspeed arabian horse in 5 seconds is not exactly telling , that game mechanics do map this role well, aswell, as its known, that firearms are not intended to be in cRPG, so that doesnt really work ..
2) horsearcher - well , there is horsearcher implemented pretty well in the game .. meaning , that playing HX is simply exploiting game-mechanics , and sacrificing any role-image and immersion for sake of kill-greedyness, aswell as its completely obvious that HX could never work like that in real medival world
hence, one could aswell implement motorcycles-and modern guns , which have the same medival role-image potential like current HX

Talking about realistic HX - if you did read any documentation and not just look at pictures ( really funny though  :mrgreen:), you will know, that it also was mainly used to reach tactical positions faster and then shooting unmounted or , if mounted ,(to shoot over friendly units ) only on very low speed , to prevent the bolt flying out of the crossbow ... not even mentioning problems of putting a bolt into a crossbow or reloading propperly on high speed

I once posted a suggestion to change HX mechanics in a way to make it feasable to be played as some kind of badass rogue style, which was fully ignored ...
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Memento_Mori on June 10, 2013, 04:43:08 pm
History is unreasonable? Took me 5 minutes to find a page from an old combat manual dating to 1467 for dealing with HX.
(click to show/hide)

The trick is to get us in a headlock:
(click to show/hide)

Seriously though, hang around friendly archers/xbow/throwers and you'll notice HX don't pester you as much. I know for a fact, one person in this thread complaining is just a bad melee cav who always tries to engage me alone.

Looks like the horse crossbowman drops his xbow, disarms the lancer and puts him into a headlock.
History is fascinating.
Title: Re: Horse x-bow
Post by: Tore on June 11, 2013, 09:46:38 pm
remove speed bonus from hx

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